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MMORPG Methodone

First post explains the reason :)

Author: tupodawg999

Class vs Skills Part 2

Posted by tupodawg999 Thursday January 8 2009 at 11:03AM
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Further thoughts on the class vs skills debate after trying a bit of prototyping.

I decided to try and do quick and dirty prototypes of various of these design ideas separately to get an idea of how difficult they'd be to code fully. I think this is a good way of stopping yourself going down blind alleys. I started off trying to build a little standalone thing using Visual Basic that displayed all the skill trees I had in mind on separate tabs with the code for requirements ( the code that for example stops you selecting "Master Swordsman" unless you already have 24 warrior skills including "Expert Swordsman" ). It didn't take very long before I had skills and tabs out the wazoo and it was all getting a bit too complicated. I could code my first idea eventually but the fact that it turned out to be overly complicated to code made me step back a bit and think harder about why I'd automatically picked a skill based system.

What's wrong with classes?

After thinking about it I came up with three things that bugged me.

1) Freedom within a class:

You start a game and decide to play a warrior. You're okay with playing a class with restrictions etc--you can't heal, can't use spells etc and that's ok. You decide in your head that you want him to be a big dumb guy who uses a two-handed hammer but you can't because the fighter class in the game doesn't work that way. So it can be quite minor like wanting to use a 2H hammer but the game making you use axes.

2) Hybrid, but not my hybrid.

There are archetypes and a class is usually either an archetype or a hybrid of two archetypes. Some of theses hybrids are almost standard, like the fighter/priest paladin hybrid, but some aren't, so a particular game might not have *your* fave hybrid. Games with multi-classing can get round this to a certain extent but even then it might not be enough for some e.g one player might want a hybrid that was 2/3 fighter and 1/3 scout while another wanted 2/3 scout and 1/3 fighter.

3) Right name, wrong hybrid.

With the standard MMO combat system you have the set roles, CC, Melee DPS, tanking, healing, ranged DPS etc and over time (it seems to me) games have become increasingly focused on slotting a particular class into one of those roles. That can cause a conflict sometimes if the role doesn't fit how a player sees a class. For example in most games now a ranger is ranged DPS for group fighting whereas my kind of ranger class would involve lots of non-combat skills that made it easier to explore without dying. So there can sometimes be a mismatch between the game's definition of a particular fantasy archetype and an individual player's definition of that archetype.

So, at least partly... class vs skills is actually a spectrum rather than a clear divide and the spectrum is how much player freedom there is when it comes to customizing the abilities of their character and how much a lack of freedom bothers individual players. My first thought was to have (almost) complete freedom where a player could learn any skill up to a maximum number of skills. But that first prototyping made me stop and think about it more.

So what I'm thinking now is:

1) Freedom within a pure class i.e a warrior talent tree where you pick the individual skills you want as you level / skill up. Or a wizard skill tree with different lines of spells and you pick the upgrades that suit your preferred style.

2) A multi-classing system that lets you make the hybrid you want. One way would be divide skills into categories with a self-contained upgrade tree and then allow players to pick the three categories they wanted. For example a player who wanted a pure fighter would pick the general, basic melee and advanced melee categories while a player that wanted a priest would pick the general skills, basic melee and priest skill categories. You'd build your own class from selecting 3-5 skill trees that each contained a bundle of related skills.

This could be quite a good way to do things even if you wanted to have pre-set classes. By writing the code around a game class being a collection of 3-5 skill trees you could easily create a new class around a different collection of skill trees.

This sort of system might also help with point 3) above with one collection of skill trees suiting a player that wanted to be ranged DPS and another being better suited to exploring.

So, back to the drawing board for me but it does show how useful prototyping can be in getting a clearer picture of what you want.

Edit: Forgot to mention: after having a quick dabble I can see how classes are preferable from a coding point of view. Classes may or may not not be technically easier to code than a skill system but they are conceptually easier to code because they are inherently modular. So I think there's a definite balance to strike between player freedom and ease of coding especially if you have limited resources. Decisions, decisions.

Zyllos writes:

Really, I do not like a total skill based system but I also do not like a total class system. I prefer a hybrid between classes you choose but then you get a list of skills that the class can develop (many skills overlapping but some skills are avaliable only to that class). This allows people to know what that class is capable of but it also allows people to customize that class in a particular way. SWG was a good example of this. Once you had chosen a tree to go down, you and everyone else around you knew what you were capable of. But you also were allowed to take another tree to allow for customization.

Thu Jan 08 2009 11:35AM Report
tupodawg999 writes:

Yeah I'm inclining more to some kind of hybrid system now.

I did play SWG for about six months or so but it was so long ago I've forgotten the details of how the skill system worked. I can remember little bits of it like the cool campsite scouts could make but that's about all.

Thu Jan 08 2009 3:04PM Report
zelldevil writes:

SWG did have it right when it started out as far as the best skill/class system.  It wasnt the best of games, but its leveling/skills seemed the way it should be.  Then they crapped it up.

Thu Jan 08 2009 5:08PM Report
zantax writes:

You know I like skill systems but I don't like class systems, and I can't stand the way most games progress there skills.  I like EVE online but I don't like the way the skills are trained, you click train then go to sleep.  I feel you should have to do something to increase a skill.  IMO the best game for this was Asheron's Call, you play to gain experiance by killing, doing crafting, swinging your sword, casting spells and you apply that exp to your skills and stats to raise them.  IMO that was the best system out there.

Thu Jan 08 2009 5:29PM Report
Eruiel writes:

My favorite customization system is a mix of both, up until now the favorite example of such a system I have encountered was Diablo 2, the game had a class system but with a enormous range of skills and points to determine the type of skills and potency of the same that we wanted... ths in turn made available a large number of possible combinations and personal customization that I have been unable to find elsewhere

Thu Jan 08 2009 11:58PM Report
tupodawg999 writes:

I've been checking out all the skill systems mentioned in the comments. All food for thought.

Fri Jan 09 2009 3:17PM Report writes:
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