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Rollo talks games. (And Pie)

Just another gamer pretending to know what he's talking about.

Author: Rollotamasi

The majority of PvPers are NOT looking for a challenege.

Posted by Rollotamasi Friday January 18 2008 at 6:54PM
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Back in the day I was about as "carebear" as they come.  I wanted nothing to do with PvP.  It did not interest me in the least bit.  It wasn't that I had a issue going up against another player.  Quite the contrary.  I have always been a huge fan of online FPS's. Once I started playing WoW and got into the BG's I started to enjoy MMO PvP.  I liked the group oriented basis with a bit less twitch style gameplay. Like most people that  PvPers label carebears I didn't have any interest in PvP because of the ganking and griefing.    Basically, people who I like to call "Honorless Dogs".  Please keep in mind that a honorless dog isn't a exploiter, they very well may be playing within the rules of the game. What it means is they are honorless dogs while doing it.  Unfortunately, I believe that the majority of people that call themselves PvPers fall into this category.

1.  We salute you Mr. "I'm going to attack you when your engaged with a mob" guy.  Valid tactic?  Sure, its not exploiting.  Does it make you a honorless dog?  Yep.  Your a wanker.

2. We salute you Mr. "I'm 30 lvl's above you and I'm going to slaughter you with one hit" guy. Once again, Valid tactic?  Sure.  Honorless Dog.  Yep.  Look, its not my fault you used to get your ass kicked in high school.  Go find the guy that was the one who was actually doing the kicking and one shot him instead.  Or find out where he lives and put his name and address on a bunch of animal porn mailing lists. 

3.  We salute you Mr. "Me and 4 of my friends are going to kick your ass for no better reason then the hot chick in accounting that I asked out turned me down" guy.  Everyone knows these people.  The groups of high lvls that roam around jumping single players. Yep, your a honorless dog.


Wait, Whats that?  I hear something... OH, it's the cries of the honorless dogs.  "Dude, it's war, if the other guy is of the opposing faction  then they are free game."  Yeah, I know.  In the last 4 years there have been plenty of times  Iwould  have been justified in  shooting a 16 year old Iraqi kid  that approached a checkpoint after he was warned but I didn't.  I am not a honorless dog.

Next argument.  "But a MMO isn't real war!"  You are 100 percent correct.  But that doesn't make you any less of a dick.  I don't care if your role playing.  It just means you are role playing a dick.  I don't care if you would never do something like that in real life.  Your a dick.   It doesn't mean you wouldn't it simply means the internet gives you the ability to do it with out getting your ass kicked.

The reason I think I can speak to this is that I said I USED to not be interested in PvP.  Then I played WoW BG's and now I am back playing EvE.  Love it or hate it, PvP doesn't get much more hardcore then EvE.  Because of this anyone getting ready to use the old "WoW BG's isn't real PvP so you don't know crap st00pid n00b!" argument can go ahead and shut up now. 

The thing that makes me come to to the the conclusion that I have come to (The one stated in the title of this post) is that in my time playing eve (About 8 months)  I have NEVER, NOT ONCE been attacked on terms that most would consider to be honorable terms. I'm belt ratting minding my own business.  Im in a cruiser - Guy kicking my ass is in a battle cruiser.  I'm in a battle cruiser - Guy ganking me is is in a battleship. 

Don't get me wrong here, I love EVE and I love the PVP.  I also understand that PvP in EVE is more about winning then honor (Hence the old EVE saying "If your in a fair fight your doing something wrong") HOWEVER, That doesn't apply all the time. 

-A enemy fleet jumps into a system you control.  Your not going to look at what ships they have or how many and then tell 6 of your guys to disengage to even the odds., You are going to open fire.  This does NOT make you a honorless dog.

-You setup a gatecamp to control movement around space you control. This does NOT make you a honorless dog.

-You fly your battleship around 0.4 space ganking people in frigs and cruisers belt ratting.  This makes you a honorless dog.

-You and 20 of your corp mates setup a gatecamp for no other reason then to blow up everyone that comes through because you like the pretty colors the explosions make and if you are REALLY lucky you might get to pod someone wearing +5 implants.  Guess what, Your all honorless dogs.

It is my opinion that the internet truly brings out the worst in people.  They say things to people they would NEVER say if that person was in the same room because they know they would get punched in the face.  They act ways they would never act in public.  But what I am really getting at is simply what I stated in the title.  The majority of PvPers DON'T want a challenge.  They want the chance to do something they rarely get to do in real life...Exert their will over others.


A.Blackloch writes:

Haha, I know what you are talking about. Been through a variety of mmorpgs and that's what they mostly are for some people - a place where the socially impaired guys with poor self-esteem can beat the sh*t out of 20lvl lower people to ease their pain.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against PvP and if I get ganked or corpsecamped I can suck it up. But when you move along - continue what you were doing, "ignore the gank" you get a message  "Hey U f*kken h0m0, Com back N' I kill yo momma 2!" you start to think are you too old for this. :)

Fri Jan 18 2008 7:09PM Report
Owyn writes:

I know exactly what you mean.  In fact, I founded our guild back in January 2000 to fight just those people, back in Darktide.  We had moderate success there, and have since moved on to every pvp release between then and now, with much better success in some other games.

Not everyone who pvps is like that.  Unfortunately, I think people act in online games how they would act if they had no inhibitions on their actions in the real world.  Yank back laws and punishments, and the number of killers goes up dramatically.

But there are still others who stand against them.  In fact, that's most of why I play these games.

Fri Jan 18 2008 8:31PM Report
Jsteiner writes: Well. I agree with some of that. Definantly not all of it. Attack people when they are fighting a mob? No. Just after when theyre wounded? Sure. (They get their XP, and at least its 1v1, even if still really one sided) Why would I fight fair? And its not like I don't like a challenge. I'll attack (solo) groups of 2 or 3 people... try to kill people five levels higher than me. Its just *fun*. And whats more, in a game that rewards you for killing other players, fighting unfair is not encouraged. I'm pretty sure if people could they would gank in 1 space... everybody... just for the money. And why not? It's income, and its certainly more fun to fight an endless mass of people, or to start some bad blood with another guild than to just sit around killing mobs. Now trash-talking... thats unnecessary... its a game. Killing low levels is simply dumb. Out of steam. Im done. Fri Jan 18 2008 8:42PM Report
Kyleran writes:

I can relate to what your saying. I'm pretty much a carebear, yet I play on PVP servers/games all the time. I try to hold myself with honor when I can, and don't gank as you described in your blog post. 

However, EVE's an odd duck.  The stakes are so incredibly high there, you really can't afford to make things fair or risk losing.  The goal it would appear to be is win, and win big.

I have a corp mate, he ganks people in low sec all the time, (2-8 kills per day).  He uses an inteceptor to do this (you should see when he attacks a cruiser, 20 minute fight sometimes).

I know, you think its unfair for people like him to attack folks mining or ratting in .4 space.  But that's where you are wrong.  If you want safety, stay in high sec.  If you want to go to loc sec, you risk my corp mates wrath.  You do have an option, have a friend or two fly cover for you.  He'd never attempt to attack 2 or 3 players.

Point is, you aren't supposed to rat/mine freely in low sec, you are supposed to be defensive.  New ship enters the zone, you safe up until you ascertain their intents  You fit warp stabs to your ship to prevent from being locked down, and most importantly, you don't fly alone.

Its sucks to need a group, but that's the game mechanic.  When my corp flys a big ice  mining OP in our own 0.0 space we always have 3-5 folks flying cover in case anyone jumps in the system by surprise. (actually, we make folks hide on the outside of the system's gates and report any approaches).

EVE is about teamwork.  Sure, you can skip the teamwork, but you pay the price for your soloing ways.


Fri Jan 18 2008 8:48PM Report
Reborn17 writes:

This is why those of us that don't play primarily for pvp look at those that do in such a negative light. The tactics. I found most PKs I used to run into to be such cowards. I mean I could respect beating me, but I couldn't respect attacking me during a fight with a mob, or just as a fight ended having used invis to sneak up on me and then unleashing some sort of chained snare/debuff/damage macro.  You want a piece of me? Come and get it, but show some heart.

I always attributed this behavior to adolescence run amok, but after seeing it displayed across so many games over the years it seems to be status quo.Sad. Remember, all the dead opponents in the world don't mean a thing if you're just a maladjusted ganker whose only joy is in the misery of others.

Fri Jan 18 2008 9:14PM Report
devacore writes:

It never bothered me the chaos but I do enjoy chaos... anyways, my feelings are on the side of the few.  Most people hate getting attacked and not being able to get any revenge at all.  Just like reality, games need law and order for the game to grow.  Outlaws are punished by law, wars and pvp are between guild or warring fractions not random people.. that is just plain murder.  Although, being able to kill anyone is nice feeling but one must realize every action has a reaction.. at least it should.  I guess my solution is a law system like oblivion, more harsh or less I don't know but something.

Fri Jan 18 2008 10:04PM Report
Kabkorakazi writes:

It's called Player versus Player. Not Convienient Player versus Player for the Carebear.  Expecting those you encounter to employ honorable tatics is completely idiotic.  It's competitive, and most will use any and all compeitive advantages to win, it's understandable.  The only dishorable strategy is to unfairly use game mechanics to gain such advantages. 

And wtf is with all the "maladjusted" "you used to get your ass kicked in high school" guy, ect.  QQ more.  This is so idiotic to bring up.  Because someone behaves like a jerk in game means they are of a lower status in real life?  Yeah, ok, I'm totally buying that one ....

You expectations of PVP and what PVP really is are two polar opposites.  Do all us a favor, save the QQ, and return to PVE. 

Oh, and I'm not your honorless dog, as I'm sure thats your first conclusion.  I'm the one who fights with honor and expects none from any others.  Unreal expectations get you no where.

Fri Jan 18 2008 10:08PM Report
devacore writes:

Well Kabkorakazi you are a dying breed, I hope you enjoying the one man thumping show b/c you'll be the only one playing it.  It'd give you a 'hand' but I go where the players go, you see it's survival of the fittest not the most pathetic; beat on brother.

Fri Jan 18 2008 10:42PM Report
Rollotamasi writes:

"You expectations of PVP and what PVP really is are two polar opposites.  Do all us a favor, save the QQ, and return to PVE"

Yep, Knew it wouldn't be long before one showed up.  OMG GO BACK TO PVE!!!!111.  Sorry to tell you this home slice but killing someone while they are almost dead from fighting a mob = DISHONORABLE.  Takes no skill.  This would be why you are indeed a honorless dog.  The fact that you don't understand this just proves it all the more,  You are "That" PvPer   That person that says QQ More, Go back to PvE.  You can't deal with real PvP.  Once more.  I play EVE.  I PvP In 0.0 every day.


Yeah Yeah yeah, I know.  All is fair in war.  I never said it wasn't fair though, I said its honorless.  And seeing as how you are the only person so far to really disagree with me you mean do YOU a favor, Not "US".  Perhaps you should do "US" a favor and take yourself somewhere else?

Fri Jan 18 2008 10:45PM Report
Cetra writes:

griefing & ganking is part and parcel of pvp. Thats the damm reason why we even play in that server. The uncertainly, excitement, fun, pain, revenge..everything. its all part of the experience.

Sure i'm not happy when i got grief or ganked(nobody does), i can curse and swear too. But when it is over, its all part of the fun and reason why im here in this pvp server. And i do my fair share to others too.

Of course there will be total assholes, stupid kids killing/camping anyone he sees and sending pm talking crap. This happens in any online game. Just live with it. But if u expects everyone to bow/wave, wait for you to finish yr mob, regain hp in a ffa pvp server? Dun be SILLY.

Go play duels, arena & bgs if you want a fair fight. you like pvp but u are still a carebear. Because you only want to play in a protected environment, engage in fair fights with ample preparations like team deathmatch. Its yr preference and we respect tat. But dun come pointing fingers at others.


Fri Jan 18 2008 10:54PM Report
Rollotamasi writes:

"you like pvp but u are still a carebear. Because you only want to play in a protected environment, engage in fair fights with ample preparations" 

Please quote the part of the post where I said that.

Fri Jan 18 2008 10:59PM Report
Litchfield writes:

haha, good read

Fri Jan 18 2008 11:59PM Report
Braavosi writes:

I have always said if youre red youre dead. Who cares if you are low lvl or fighting a mob. You are the enemy.

Now I dont go around just looking for this kind of pvp because you are right, its no challenge. I kill low lvls and ppl fighting mobs because I just happen to be passing by.

MMO's today are way too carebear. I miss real pvp.

Sat Jan 19 2008 1:26AM Report
jokodude901 writes:

I love is what I do, and I tend to think I'm pretty good at it.  And because of that, I generally try to fight fair. 

Why do that?  Well its simple really.  The reason I pvp is the challenge.  It is the fight against another player.  It is the urge to dominate and control.  Most importantly, it is the feeling I get when I beat an opponent in a fair fight. 

I don't think of gankers or group killers as pvpers.  I think of them as trash that enjoy killing other players. 

A real pvper is someone who is not scared to go toe to toe with a difficult opponent, and they also don't  kill helpless lowbies for no reason other than a good laugh.  Instead, a pvper fights merely for the challenge, and the greater the challenge, the greater the joy when the challenge has been overcome.  Anyone who says differently doesn't understand the meaning of pvp.


Sat Jan 19 2008 1:52AM Report
Aren_D writes:

Many of you careless and put all PvPers under same roof, completely ignore that they may belong to different groups. There are types of PvP like mass PvP, group PvP, solo/individual PvP and probably more. PvP aspects as challenge,control,domination and more are different for all those types. PvP-fun and the reasons to fight different too.


People who are honorless dogs for you won't care if you call them this way or any other term. They see you,they kill you. That's all, so simple. Honor does not exist for many of them. And I agree with them at some point. honor sets limits for PvP.You can't do this, you can do that, that's lame, that's not fair they say.


PvP always will be unfair, because of personal experience, witch can not be balanced.


Sat Jan 19 2008 3:25AM Report
xenogias writes:

If any game could pull off the fun of PvP the way AC did I would be all over it. Alot where assholes and alot where not. It was a game of both skill and levels but generally not gear (in the early days). Even the levels played a verry small role. I remember one called K M F D M on our server. He was verry good. He would kill you, regardless of the situation. However he had his own ruleset. 10+ levels under him? Well unless you where an asshole to him he wouldnt loot you. He ganked you or killed you while fighting? Again unless you pissed him off he wouldnt loot you. He attacked you or you him, and he destroyed you? Odds are he wouldnt loot you. I remember when a friend and I who where alittle lower level than him tried killing him (yea ganked him). He made swift work of us, told us good try and moved on.

So yes, some PvPers are complete asswipes or "Honorless dogs". But there are thoes that you call an honorless dog that really where anything but. They kill you to kill you and move on. I see nothing wrong with that. In the long run I think there are just as many out there that just want to have fun as there is people who need to feel better about themself in an online game.

Sat Jan 19 2008 4:39AM Report
alakram writes:

You are correct mate.

Sat Jan 19 2008 6:04AM Report
Hrothmund writes:

I use all of your listed "Honorless Dog" tactics, and as frequently as possible. I guess if you wanted to profile me as 'successfully'  as the other 'low-life scum', you could go with 'The-guy-who-knows-there-are-people-who-go-mental-when-they-are-pwnt-in-an-unfair-way-and-gets-a -kick-out-of-it-because-he-finds-their-red-faced-angry-cries-funny' guy.

Sat Jan 19 2008 10:31AM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Ouch, I guess the comments section doesn't support 220+ character 'words' too well. That did not work well at all.


What I tried to convey is that I like to gank low levels and group up on people, because i know that somewherre there's a red-faced nerd bashing his keyboard, spilling his Mountain Dew and making a mess of his pack of Doritos.

Sat Jan 19 2008 10:33AM Report
Rollotamasi writes:

A lot of you are missing the point.  The majority of PvP players hail PvP as the ultimate MMO combat.  They say that fighting a NPC mob is not a challenge.   That it takes no skill.  Engaging in combat with another real player is where it's at.  THAT is a real challenge.  Ok, well there in lies the problem.  All of those things that I listed (The things that are done a thousand times a day on PvP servers) are NOT a challenge.  Attacking and killing a player 20 lvl's lower then you is not a challenge.  Attacking a player that is engaged with a NPC is NOT a challenge.  You get the idea.

It's not that these things bother me.  All of the people here that are trashing me and telling me to go back to PvE have probably never played EvE,  Here is what you are failing to understand.  It is not the practice of ganking low lvl's and group killing single players that I have an issue with.  These are all things that are part of a PvP game.  My problem is with PvP players then turning around and talking about how PvP is the ultimate challenge and PvE is none.  

It's like playing in a tournament (Golf, darts, billiards, whatever, the sport doesn't even matter) but putting yourself in the lowest bracket with the beginners instead of playing with the people that are your own skill lvl.  Did you win?  Yes.  Did you win within the rules of the sport? Yes.  Did you win because you were better then the other players?  Yes.  Does the victory have ANY honor what so ever? No.  Sure, you may be able to to brag and convince YOURSELF that you play for the challenge but the rest of the players know that you are just a honorless dog. 


Sat Jan 19 2008 10:46AM Report
Rollotamasi writes:

"What I tried to convey is that I like to gank low levels and group up on people, because i know that somewherre there's a red-faced nerd bashing his keyboard, spilling his Mountain Dew and making a mess of his pack of Doritos."

Ok.  Your a honorless dog.  The thing is...THATS OK.  As long as you then don't go around bragging about how you PvP for the challenge or the thrill of matching skills with a real player.  Your just a greifer and greifers are part of PvP games.  You do things for the sole purpose of running someone else gameplay.  If thats how you play then thats how you play.  I have no issues with people that are honorless dogs and admit it.

Sat Jan 19 2008 10:50AM Report
jokodude901 writes:

I've always thought PvE had its own unique challenges, and though I prefer the challenge of PvP, I can definitely see the challenge in PvE play.  Are the two styles of play different? Of course.  Is one harder than the other?  Obviously not. 

So Rollotamasi, I don't think of of PvP as the ultimate challenge and PvE as nothing.  But for me personally, I do PvE so I can do PvP, and I won't change my ways any time soon.

Sat Jan 19 2008 11:02AM Report
Jeowan writes:


Sat Jan 19 2008 12:17PM Report
eric_w66 writes:

Amen! I love PvP. I hate MMO RPG PVP, as its full of these "honorless dogs". If ganking and griefing are all you're good at, then I suggest a long walk off a short pier.

Sat Jan 19 2008 1:10PM Report
eric_w66 writes:

Reminds me of PotBS beta.... I had mentioned that 99% of PvPers aren't looking to show off their skill or have a fair (or FUN!) fight, and I get ridiculed for saying it. Very next night, I'm in a PvP group of 6 frenchies, and we're sitting outside New Orleans PvP zone (or just inside of it), and there's a group of equal level equal firepower pirate ships deeper inside the PvP zone. Do we move to engage each other? Nope. We sit there and stare at each other because both sides DON'T want to risk their precious ships, they just want to blow someone else's UP. Oddly enough, a solo pirate and a solo frenchie both enter the pvp zone at the same time, the french 6 move to blow up the solo pirate, and the pirate 6 move to blow up the frenchie, and we're RIGHT NEXT to each other on the map. It was so sad.

Humorously, since they had a level cap on at that time, neither "victim" was killed (or even hit) because of spawning issues and the lack of uber pvp tackler ships (I despise these honorless dogs even more). So instead of a close fun battle for 12 people, we have 14 people bored stiff. Go PvP MMORPG action! LOL.

Sat Jan 19 2008 1:16PM Report
HelloKirby writes:

You make a very good point.  I am sick of immature fatheads who unleash all their anger on a guy significantly weaker then themselves for the fun of it.  I like PvP that is a challenge not spanking some noob because he is just there at the wrong time. 

Sat Jan 19 2008 1:19PM Report
Kevmeizter writes:

Well I hate all the things you said too... but stooping to their level is the easiest thing on the earth...when ur getting spawn camped and raped every 30 seconds by different guys. I'm usually not one of those "dicks" , so revenge is my sole exscuse. Not proud of it but man getting even feels good in an MMO.

Sat Jan 19 2008 6:27PM Report
wardog250 writes:

" I don't care if you would never do something like that in real life.  Your a dick'  It doesn't mean you wouldn't it simply means the internet gives you the ability to do it with out getting your ass kicked."

I loved that sentence.  Says it all.

Sat Jan 19 2008 8:08PM Report
Fadedbomb writes:


Unfortunately things like this will continue until gaming communities take a stand and promote a "black listing" system. Where griefers and PVP assholes can be reported to older community members and guilds to be black listed from groups and ganked on sight :).

I despite the current state of SWG due to the roaming gank groups. I loved the sentence "you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck,you suck," spammed at me for 30 minutes until I reported them and they were temp banned (all 4 of them) for 3 days for harrasment. This after they just ganked me at the starport, then continued to clone gank me for a little under 30minutes to the point where I logged out...logged back in and told them to get a life...hence the spam :(.


This is why I cannot wait for Age of Conan! Pvp server for the win!! Ultimate war, all the time, community managed, and you got a problem wif a kser? No problem!! Just cut his head off :D! Plus, kids are banned on sight if discovered playing AoC under the age of 18 :D!

Sat Jan 19 2008 8:36PM Report
Spirer writes:

Sadly, people are like that. People don't want challenges, they want wins... they don't want balanced fights, they want superiority.

I'm fairly good at my games, nothing super but you get my meaning... how many times have I been beaten by clueless people with nothing but more levels and gear or with help of others... sucks.

Sun Jan 20 2008 7:48AM Report
CharlieT writes:

It's, pretty much, true. From SWG to WoW, EvE, et cetera, I've seen this, endlessly. It's the nature of the game. I've always tried to avoid such things, myself, however. If I see a lower level, I let them pass....if they attack me, I'll toss a DoT on them to show how quickly I can kill them, and they'll, normally, run off and give up on attacking. See someone fighting a mob? I'll wait until they finish and heal up. All this means is that I am an easier target for the Honorless PvPers, but meh...focus on your own actions, not those of others.

Sun Jan 20 2008 10:51AM Report
Dracain writes:

While I have never been the most into mmorpg pvp, I wouldn't run away and I loved it but I never made it far enough before the game became to much grind to handel.  However I have done some regular mmorpg pvp and I generally know what you mean and agree that it is wrong to kill someone like that.  However I can also understand that the way they see it they are clear because of the old saying "all is fair in love and war". 

Fri Nov 21 2008 7:35PM Report writes:
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