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Hrothmund's random ramblings.

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Author: Hrothmund

AoC is out and a disappointment, Kil'Jaeden is down. Does this mean success for WAR?

Posted by Hrothmund Thursday June 5 2008 at 12:53PM
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I do not want to be drawn into the AoC flamewar, but I will say my piece about the title.  Simply put, the game to me was a huge disappointment. I am sure some of you are loving the game, as I first did when I started out in beta. Unfortunately for most people, this infatuation will be quite short-lived. This of course is a matter of opinion, but I guess if your idea of an enjoyable MMO is nearly no end-game content and next to no longevity due to the extremely boring game mechanics and poor class balance, have fun with AoC, you deserve it!

Now, if you want to argue with me about AoC, drop me a PM or something, but please, for the rest of my write-up, let's assume the game is nowhere near to what the hype promised.

That done, I can get down to business. AoC is a let down, TBC WoW is 'finished', 'on farm', 'beat' or however you may want to put it.  This means  that out of the three promised  'big-hitters' for 2008 only one title has not revealed its hole cards. This title, of course, is Warhammer Online. The situation in the 'MMO game' could not be better for WAR.

AoC defeated itself by being sub-standard and WoW is losing the interest of its subscribers as all of the PvE content has been completed. A strong showing by EA-Mythic could potentially tip the scales in the MMO market to the direction many of us have been hoping for, away from WoW. Yes, I know Wrath of the Lich King is not that far away either, and the next WoW expansion will most definitely bring back subscribers, but I still think that if WAR lives up to everything Mythic has 'promised', it could be 'the next WoW'.

Why so? World of Warcraft has opened up MMO gaming to a whole new customer base, the casual gaming market. Before WoW, more or less the only people playing MMOs were the hard-core gamers, or what the general public refers to as nerds, geeks, etc. Look at how things have changed! I mean,  Mila Kunis plays WoW, as do many other celebrities.

Hell, my 36-year-old boss plays WoW and he is raiding Sunwell while managing to hang on to the ripple of social life he has left after fathering two children. I think that's amazing! Could you have been considered a 'hard-core' gamer in EQ or UO if you played less than two hours a day on average? I seriously doubt it. Not to stray too far off subject, I think I have maintained that WAR has a much larger potential customer base today, than WoW did at release.

In fact, it couldn't be easier for WAR to succeed. The only real competition out there is WoW, and if Mythic manage to pull everything off bigger, better, harder and stronger, the game will be a huge hit, no doubt about it. After all, the Warcraft universe is more or less a carbon copy of the Warhammer universe. There has been speculation as to whether the first Warcraft title was intended to be a Warhammer game, but Blizzard opted to release it under 'their own' IP due to not reaching an agreeable contract with Games Workshop. Nobody knows for certain, but one can't miss the similarities between two franchises.

All in all, if Mythic comes up with a game that is as enjoyable to play and as easy to pick up as WoW, but offers that 'next-gen' experience and upgrades all around, they have a winner. With the sad state of late MMO launches, I genuinely hope EA-Mythic breaks the norm and releases a title that meets and exceeds the expectations of the masses, instead of crawling under them like a drunken Sigil employee after the release of Vanguard.


Ascension08 writes:

Yeah, that's the problem here. You put some mechanics that are similar to WoW (autoattack) into the game and people automatically scream WOW CLONE! Instead of looking at all the things WAR will be improving upon. AoC jumped off a cliff and tried to build a giant city out of almost nothing, WAR has a nice strong mountaintop.

Thu Jun 05 2008 2:15PM Report
Umbral writes:

"boring game mechanics"  reflects your opinion about the game, not the absolute truth, but the main issue is, Age of Conan was a disappointment to you, but the game started as a very very successful game, and it seems you are just in denial about this reality

I cant talk about it, but it seems you will also be disappointed with Warhammer.

Finally, why wait for the big hit, you should wait for a game you would enjoy  and not fall in this MMO war illusion.


Thu Jun 05 2008 4:43PM Report
icemanXxX writes:

Well  I think AoC rules all.Its really a living, breathing game-o-sphere.If you like boring combat,cartoony characters,same ole scenery,and questing then yeah you will not like AoC,stick with WOW or A WOW clone.Come to Hyboria And I`ll hand you your Arsse.

Thu Jun 05 2008 6:02PM Report
Pepsipwnzgod writes:

So in this rant youve basically stated... AoC died because it didnt live up to hype... WoW is dead because the final boss has been downed by a single guild, and WAR has potential due to it's hype... seems like a logical thing to say for a special ed. student... "zomg 1/1143109824012841048210429810428109 people in the wow community have downed a boss so all is lost for the other 1143109824012841048210429810428108 ppl...." AoC IS fun because it's so bad, just like 2moons and EQ.. theyre amazingly fun because theyre bad.. and for WAR, your speculating an amazing build up on a game because of hype after saying AoC didnt live up to hype, WAR has nothing to build off of, are you kidding me? sure they rocked out some board games and have a story line, doesnt mean that the game wont get boring after a week of gameplay, who's to say the endgame for WAR wont be downed much quicker? with "everyone having a combat round in WAR" what happens to ppl that like standing back chillin and healing? they wont like it, look at half the games that have died because of OP classes.. who's to say WAR will be balanced? no one, this is all speculation and WoW isnt dead, + AoC hasnt even grown enough to say how it'll turn up.. /gg

Thu Jun 05 2008 6:16PM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Nice to see some rational responses from team AoC fanboy.

Maybe it is you who need to examine the reality of the state of affairs. Did the game really live up to your expectations? Are you having fun, or just pretending to because you can't admit your investment in the game was a waste of money? Be honest now.


AoC has some novel ideas but it will run out of steam fast. All you self righteous defenders of the game, let's see what your opinion is in two months. I am willing to bet you won't be so fast to jump at a person criticising the game.


I played the demo and bought the pre-order. That doesn't mean I am not willing to say I do not like the final product.

Thu Jun 05 2008 6:27PM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Pepsi - I am not stating or predicting that WAR will be a success. I'm merely trying to point out that with the current situation in the MMORPG market, if Mythic does put out a good game it will sell like crazy. I never hinted at the game being a huge success. It might be that WAR will be a steaming pile of feces, you never know.

I never liked DaoC, so WAR has to be something special to suit my tastes.

Thu Jun 05 2008 6:33PM Report
Umbral writes:

If someone tell you AoC is a sucess and enjoy the game you assume this person is a fanboy?

I never felt in AoC hype, as I never felt in any game hype, hype doesnt matters to me, I enjoy AoC for what it is as I enjoy EQ2 and Vanguard for the same reason.

The main issue is, who had unreal expectations were you, you just can deny AoC is a huge sucess as I cant deny Vanguard ( and I have a lot of good moments there ) is not a sucess.

You are in delusion with Warhammer as you problably were with Age of Conan, can you see that?

Anyway, It is impossible to debate with you as you belive everyone that enjoy Age of Conan is a self righteous fanboy.


Thu Jun 05 2008 6:40PM Report
Pepsipwnzgod writes:

I dont play AoC, just dont like gamebashers that havnt hit endgame, just because some endgame player said "this sux my loot is bad so i cant do anything" doesnt mean it's a bad game, experience the game past the grind, everyone knows endgame is the most fun part of a game even if it's just getting loot and gankin level 3's a lot of people like that, i love raiding, but i like pvp more and if it comes between the two i dont have to choose cuz plenty of games implement both, saying a game has failed because they didnt live up to YOUR OWN expectations doesnt mean they didnt reach anothers..

Thu Jun 05 2008 6:50PM Report
Umbral writes:

..."Maybe it is you who need to examine the reality of the state of affairs. Did the game really live up to your expectations? Are you having fun, or just pretending to because you can't admit your investment in the game was a waste of money?" 

When you said that ,you proved one thing, you have an issue to understand what is beyond your opinion, first, you showed you are not able to realize Age of Conan is a big hit... the fact AoC is a sucess is a  good thing to everyone that enjoys MMORPGs, if the game industry realize they can succeed in the MMO market it will be good for all players.

Your argument about the money investment  was just silly, it is not a fortune, and even if I had only 12 hours of fun playing it would worth more than most of single player games.

... and  I ( and a lot of people ) am truly having fun in AoC, there is no reason for you to feel bad for it, as Im glad 10mil players are having a really good time in WoW.


Thu Jun 05 2008 7:00PM Report
Hrothmund writes:
  • Umbral - No it doesn't. But just look at the tone of the responses.

    I do recognize that AoC is a big hit currently, nut I'm under no illusion that there is a MMO war going on. Currently, without a doubt, the big boy in the game is still WoW, with AoC looking quite promising at a little below one million subscribers.

    Like I posted above, I don't expect great things from WAR. However, if WAR does deliver, it will certainly fill a knack for a lot of gamers.

Thu Jun 05 2008 7:07PM Report
Hrothmund writes:
  • "When you said that ,you proved one thing, you have an issue to understand what is beyond your opinion, first, you showed you are not able to realize Age of Conan is a big hit... the fact AoC is a sucess is a  good thing to everyone that enjoys MMORPGs, if the game industry realize they can succeed in the MMO market it will be good for all players."

    I wrote that because those were my sentiments exactly when I was in beta. All of my friends were jealous of my beta spot and I somehow couldn't admit to myself that I didn't enjoy playing. My guess is there are players just like that playing release now.

Thu Jun 05 2008 7:11PM Report
Umbral writes:


But this is the thing, with the hardware requirements and original and unique features of Age of Conan, the game was always focused in somehow a smaller playerbase than War, War is aimed to be as popular as WoW, I cant express my opinion about War as I would need to give some details about the game and I cant, but the fact AoC is a big hit is somehow a surprise... and a good one.

It is good to see AoC having such a good release even with some issues, I hope War and Aion have a good and successful release too, as Im waiting for both games.


Thu Jun 05 2008 7:15PM Report
Umbral writes:

"I wrote that because those were my sentiments exactly when I was in beta. All of my friends were jealous of my beta spot and I somehow couldn't admit to myself that I didn't enjoy playing. My guess is there are players just like that playing release now."

Ok, I understand, but you must realize it is not like that for everyone, I never had high hopes for AoC, the only thing that would made me buy the game in the past was the fact I really like Robert E. Howard creation and I probably would have at least 4 hours of fun in this universe.

But see, as soon I got into closed beta I realized it was the kind of game I would really like, somehow a mix between Guild Wars, Everquest2, Gothic and The Witcher ( games I enjoy ) and most of issues are not affecting me, only some minor performance issues.

In the end there is more content than I find in games like Everquest2 Lotro and DDO at the release.


Thu Jun 05 2008 7:23PM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Umbral - I do understand. I think many people misunderstood my post. It wasn't inteded to be a pun on AoC, but a speculation how the current state of affairs affects WAR's launch.

Thu Jun 05 2008 8:02PM Report
HumbleHobo writes: Yes. It means success for WAR. Yes. Thu Jun 05 2008 9:01PM Report
brostyn writes:

AoC failing has little revelance on WAR. How could it? People will always be looking for a new game. This is not marriage. To think that people play, because of loyalty to some company we pay 15 bucks a month to is silly. If its fun - we play, if not - we don't.

If WAR is a fun game it will succeed. If its a generic WoW clone it will probably fail. AoC falling flat on its face has nothing to do with that.

Thu Jun 05 2008 9:48PM Report
brostyn writes:

revelance = relevance

Thu Jun 05 2008 9:48PM Report
tool089 writes:

"I do not want to be drawn into the AoC flamewar, but I will say my piece about the title."

I think you just started another one of those infamous flame wars...

Hype for WAR is about the same as hype for AoC.  In my personal opinion, WAR will be successful for a while.  If anything it will do a good job of attracting current WoW players towards it and maybe some former WoW players.  Mostly because as you said it's WoW 2.0.  So it will take players away from WoW that want to leave because they're done with the content.  But then, you have to keep in mind, as you also said, WoW drew in the casual gamer.  That means that these people already made an investment in a game, something they would not normally do, so why drop this investment and start the "next big thing."  They aren't hopping games looking for something great, they're satisfied with the mediocre casual game.  So WAR can have the few stragglers who wanted a bit of new content in a game that is essentially WoW.  Then they'll go back to WoW when WotLK comes out.

AoC on the other hand has opened a door for gamers who want something other than WoW.  It will be great for the "nerds" to enjoy something else.  I haven't played every MMO launch in history, but from what I've experienced, there's always problems at the beginning.  Especially since they took a different route than WoW and WAR by not going with the cartoon look. 

They might have hurt some numbers by releasing it early, but really, the people that were going to play it at launch if it came out in the fall were going to play it now.  And some of them would have had to decide between WAR and AoC.  The way I see it, I get the game now and get to play it this whole summer before I go back to college and don't have time for games.  And who knows, by the time WAR comes out, whether it comes out as expected or is dealed, maybe AoC will have all the problems fixed and will have started adding extra endgame content.

Fri Jun 06 2008 1:48AM Report
shylock1079 writes:

I think a lot of games sell well in the first weeks because of devotees.  If those numbers last...then it because successful. 

I was let down by AoC too but its generally due to "Star Wars" syndrome.  You know where you build it up in your mind so much that it can never compete?  I was actually surprised at MMORPG it was like.  I dunno, I expected something groundbreaking.  So what...some people love it....and I really think a large % of those people are an entirely different age market than that of WAR.  AoC is made for an older audience who actually read Conan.  WAR is taking a great formula and building upon it with Mythic's influence.  Unlike the OP, I loved DAoC, and I have high hopes for it.  For me, all they have to do is make DAoC 2 and I'd be prefectly happy.  I really think there are plenty of fans now (due to WoW) to spread between them all. 

Fri Jun 06 2008 2:19AM Report
lupisenparis writes:

you guys can mark my words--  warhammer is definitely going to be a huge let down for these whiners.   Personally, It seems to me rpg games with persistent worlds are changing towards a chessboard look and feel to it.  Regardless of this opinion though, I'd much rather give AoC an immersive chance rather than the totally GRAPHIC clone of wow.

Fri Jun 06 2008 3:51AM Report
Raizeen writes:

aoc just came out so saying its buggy is just completely retarded i remember playing wow at beta and release and it was twice as buggier then aoc

Fri Jun 06 2008 6:44AM Report
Vortigon writes:

Lupisenparis - you are talking rubbish, you obviously know NOTHING about the current state of WAR because if you did you wouldn't come out with that crap.  You are either misinformed or lying, I can say this because I know the facts.  WAR is going to be one of the most successful MMOs to be released in current years you are so wrong its not even funny.


Fri Jun 06 2008 6:56AM Report
Zionnax writes:

Pepsi hit the nail on the head.  I'd like to say, in addition, that the OP misrepresents not only the percentage of players that have "beaten" WoW, but also misrepresents the timeframe. 

WoW/TBC was not one of "three promised big hitters of 2008" was released in EARLY 2007.  That there are large guilds on each realm that have not fully progressed through all the content a year and a half later, is a good sign of the value that WoW players received with TBC.  You may like or hate WoW; it is irrelevant when determining the value of the offering (to those that DO like it, and play it).

I haven't finished my first month of Conan, and I've already stopped playing.  I don't even dislike just does not inspire me to log in.  Is it a good game and a good value for those that do enjoy it?  Time will tell.  A high percentage of maintained subscriptions is the sign of a healthy MMO.  First-month sales mean nothing.  I hope AoC does well, and I hope that it enjoys a long life (so that they can add stuff later that will make me want to come back and log in).

Fri Jun 06 2008 9:56AM Report
Eternal2k writes:

Your putting a lot of hope on mythic, and personally I dont think they will live up to it. I think WoW will continue on with 1Mill subscribers when WotLK releases in Fall and WAR might pick up 200-500 thousand but I dont think WAR will get near 1Million and from what I have heard a lot of people will be disapointed.

Fri Jun 06 2008 11:12AM Report
Eternal2k writes:

EDIT: thats 10Mill for WOW

Fri Jun 06 2008 11:12AM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Zionnax - I did not imply that certain percentagy of players had defeated Kil'Jaeden. Around 1% of the player base has in fact completed the encounter.  This mean over 99% of the WoW player base have yet to clear the game. This does not mean that people, especially hard core raiders are not losing interest in the game. What I am referring to, is the collective recognition that the encounter has in fact been cleared, this is a turn off to even many casual players, "everything's been done, there is nothing more to kill". I myself as a hardcore raider don't see any point in playing, there is nothing more to achieve until WotLK is out.

I don't think i was off with the timing either.  I never implied tha titles had to be released in 2008. These three games were just titles that people in general thought would do well in 08.

Fri Jun 06 2008 11:20AM Report
Hexxeity writes:

Mythic, as a company, simply does not have what it takes to release a game of the same caliber as WoW.

Fri Jun 06 2008 11:39AM Report
thedrakon writes:

You post seem more like another try to make AoC look bad.

You want it cuz you like most of WAR fan that are angry and wished AoE to fail.

Fri Jun 06 2008 12:02PM Report
Player_420 writes:

WAR and AoC both rock, playing far AoC all the way baby

Fri Jun 06 2008 1:02PM Report
teraflop122 writes:

"What I am referring to, is the collective recognition that the encounter has in fact been cleared, this is a turn off to even many casual players, "everything's been done, there is nothing more to kill".

I have to disagree. I'll keep logging into an MMORPG so long as there's something I haven't seen or done, whether or not a more senior player has done it.

For the most part I think your original post made sense, but any kind of discussion online inevitably turns into a "yo mamma so fat" contest.

Fri Jun 06 2008 1:11PM Report
Zinzan writes:

You state this is your opinion, then continue by claiming it is, in actuality, the state of the mmorpg market and that WAR has no real competition.

You don't like AoC, we get it, but claiming a game is a failure only 2 weeks after release is just daft.

400,000 subscibers wasn't it? Hardly a failure.

Fri Jun 06 2008 1:25PM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Zinzan - My claim regarding WAR having no real competition, if the game lives up to the hype, is just a personal opinion of mine. Feel free to disagree.

You do realise these are discussion forums and blogs right?

For the most part, there are no absolute truths here, just extremely biased musings. I do not like AoC, I think the game is indeed a failure when put in perspective with all the hype and fanfare prior to launch. This doesn't mean I am right, feel free to disagree. Just take into account that nobody's reality is the same, we all take things in a little differently.

Fri Jun 06 2008 1:36PM Report
Zinzan writes:

Sorry, it's not 400,000, announced today that it's 1,000,000.

I don't particularly like AoC, it's not my thing, but it's gaining popularity at an astounding rate. Being only 2 weeks released aside, I simply don't see how anyone can plausably argue with those figures and call it a failure.

If the perspective you choose is the level of hype and pomp (i love that word) a game recieves prior to launch, then by your own definition WAR cannot possibly succeed unless it achieves something amazing, perhaps smashes WoW's release figures and maybe even then some. The hype surrounding that game is off the charts and it's still some months from release.

Fri Jun 06 2008 1:56PM Report
Dilweed writes:

So in this rant youve basically stated... AoC died because it didnt live up to hype... WoW is dead because the final boss has been downed by a single guild, and WAR has potential due to it's hype

Fri Jun 06 2008 2:43PM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Zinzan - The reason why I consider the game a failure, is that the people who are getting out of Tortage and leveling up are quitting. The game is in a bit better state than the last closed beta phase, but there still isn't enough content for the later levels. I played the beta for quite a bit so I know what happens when the level 40 fatigue ticks in. The game just became an annoying tedium and I found myself losing interest fast. This is the sort of feedback other players have been givin as well.


Remember, these are launch figures, people buying the game and getting their free month. LotR showed similar figures at launch, and while Tabula Rasa's numbers were considerably lower at launchm the same trend is still there.The trend being people falling victim to the hype and buying the game at launch and quitting one or two months later. AoC  might keep people interested for a while longer, but I'm willing to bet that in six months the amount of subscribers will be lower than now.

Fri Jun 06 2008 2:47PM Report
Hrothmund writes:

Dilweed - Not exactly. I wanted people to discuss wheter WoW's stagnant state and AoC being somewhat of a let-down will have an impact on WAR sales.

Fri Jun 06 2008 2:49PM Report
Dilweed writes:

Htoyhmund - Yes it will, WoW has an impact on every mmo, no matter what state it is in. And ofc AoC is a let down if you believe the hype, just like WAR will be.

Fri Jun 06 2008 2:52PM Report
Tatum writes:

Personally, I still think WAR will pull in a good amount of subs initially, because, well, it seems like theyre playing it safe and trying to appeal to a mainstream crowd.  However, Ill also take the safe money and say that WAR will follow the same trend as all other recent AAA MMOs, meaning that many will be dissapointed and many wont stick around longer than a few months.

Fri Jun 06 2008 4:12PM Report
Psymyn writes:

I would like to add, as yet another very strong fan of AoC  but as of the day i gained knowledge of  Conan lore i was obsessed! Its some of the best stuff around, and then i turned around 2yrs. prior to AoC's release and dropped a duece as it was comprehended that an actual MMO, or "action rpg" duh ppl!! -God does anyone know anything??- Was in the making... with realtime combat.. Ok so it still needs a little work..  but come on seriously, whats better than a real Action RPG, not an MMO ill tell you that right now, so if you were sitting at home jerkin it to Vangaurd or EQ2, or for christs sake L2 than Just PISS OFF!!! You have no buisiness in the realm of AoC, because your a lamezot faggatron thats just too good to of ever played somthing like... uh idk MORTAL KOMBAT SERIES??? You ppl all complain as if you can do a better job than some of these developers that work theyre arses off ! Yes ill admit to any game if its a terrible game, like WoW. I never liked the warcraft franchise because its a complete rip off of warhammer period end of descussion, and as far as WAR, oh itll be great all right! But dont pretend like its gonna be a fine and dandy process while playing it for first few months, ill see all you whiners back in the blogs on its realease when you cant stop crying about every little problem!!!!

Sat Jun 07 2008 12:39PM Report
lapis2 writes:

thers only 1 problem with war being a success...ea.  ea = suckfest.  its an ea game itll be horrible, with no support, they wont listen to thier fanbase.

the reall problem with aoc and probly most other mmos that will come out in the near future is that they are all basically wow.  i have 2 70s in wow and couldnt be more bored of questing and possibly bring up another toon.  so when when i turned on aoc and started killing x of these, collecting x of these it put me to sleep.  im tired of collecting or killing x things and until devs think of some new ways to quest and lvl ill be dissapointed with every new mmo htats comes out.  im sure there are lots of people like me who are just bored of wows quest mechanics and when we see them in other mmos it bores us.

Sun Jun 08 2008 9:39PM Report
lapis2 writes:

1 more thing the whole "u gotta wait till endgame to enjoy a game" line is such bs.  im sorry but if i have to play a game for 200+ hours before i can have fun or enjoy it that game has failed...agreed?  i mean can u hear what youre saying?  ill spent $50 on a game pay $15 a month to play and hopefuly ill actully like playing it in a couple months.  thats just stupid and i work for my money and cant waste it waiting for a game to become good.


Sun Jun 08 2008 9:48PM Report writes:
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