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BadSpock's Logical Conclusions.

My random thoughts about MMORPGs. A bit of critique, suggestion, debate, and insanity. Enjoy.

Author: BadSpock

KOTOR MMORPG?? and other acroynm fun!

Posted by BadSpock Tuesday October 23 2007 at 1:19PM
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I'm trying to not waste my time going to all the links and articles that have been posted time and time again on "confirming" or "confirming rumors" or whatever they've been doing. It's hard and so far I've failed. I'm excited!

But, to sum it up, it's been known for a while that BioWare, the company behind the amazing X-Box RPG Knights of the Old Republic as well as other great RPG titles, has been working on a MMO. It has been rumored for a long time that the MMO they have been working on is a Knights of the Old Republic game. Recently, some articles have surfaced claiming to "confirm" the rumor that BioWare's secret MMO project is indeed a KOTOR game.

This is very, very intriguing to me. So, instead of writing responses on the 18,975 threads on the forums, I'm just going to write a blog post. Enjoy.

What made Knights of the Old Republic so good?

To me, it was the great story and great characters. The story was full of intrigue and wonder, secrecy and heart pounding action, and probably featured the BEST twist in any RPG story I've ever seen. The characters were dynamic and varied, but most importantly, very influenced by the decisions you'd make.

Their alignment system was incredible. Not only did your companions follow more closely down the path you had chosen for yourself (light or dark side) but they closer you grew to them, the more they'd reveal to you about their past and their motives. It was absolute genius.

But would it work in a MMO? I'm positive if BioWare is doing a KOTOR MMO they'll use an alignment and reputation system like they did in KOTOR 1. In a MMO you won't have a party of NPC companions, unless of course they try for the Gods and Heroes model (which I really hope they don't.) So the alignment system will be just for your personal good/evil focus, however obviously it should affect your standing with people/NPCs of the opposite alignment. The reputation can be used like that which we see in any 'traditional' WoW-esque MMO, however hopefully much, much deeper and more personalized then simply grinding faction for additional unlocks.

UXO (Ultima Ten: Odyssey) was planning to have a system where you'd be given choices during their quests to solve the problem and complete the quest in different ways, each effecting your standing with the different Virtues. This seems like the perfect type of set up BioWare could use for a KOTOR MMO. Of course, you'd have clear black and white good vs. evil options, but also a lot of gray ones that you weren't sure what the effect would be. KOTOR excelled at giving you dialogue options that were rarely 100% clear, and even if they were you'd never know exactly how your comrades would react. If they did this for a MMORPG, wow.... just wow. Best-game-ever material.

The big question to me is what KOTOR era time period? I'd say it'd either have to be:

A) During the events leading directly up to KOTOR 1. Post-Revan and Malik turning to the dark side and waging war on the Republic, but before the events of KOTOR 1. Have Republic and Sith for good/evil and PVP. Plenty of PVE options too.

B) During the Mandalorian Wars before the events of KOTOR 1. This would make it more difficult for faction type PVP, as there were very few Sith before Revan/Malik began their crusade. Unless of course you could be a Mandalorian character.

So for character races, it's Star Wars, so you have about a billion options.

I'd REALLY love to see the option to not JUST be Jedi, but also Mandalorians and Droids. Obviously, the Mandalorians are powerful enough to wage war with the Republic (Jedi) and do OK, and droids can use the fact that they are robots to be as fast/powerful etc. as a Jedi. This way, NO alpha-class, competition between Jedi and non-Jedi, and a LOT more interesting then only having Jedi.

If the game is just Jedi of either Light or Dark side alignment, all with lightsabers, it's going to be boring.

Throw in Mandalorians and Droids, tons of guns and explosives etc. and use the fact that their technology allows them to compete with the Jedi, and you got yourself a great game. We saw from KOTOR 1 that all characters were capable of becoming evil or good, without having to be Jedi to do so, so the alignment system will still work having non-Jedi players.

I'd also say don't even attempt to throw in space or vehicle combat. Not at first anyway. Concentrate on the ground game.

Only thing that worries me is the combat system and advancement system. The combat system in KOTOR was boring and not all too entertaining in my opinion. Mass Effect looks to have the same type of system in place. A MMO will not be able to have the "stop time" feature that ME and KOTOR have, so they'll have to adjust the combat system in a big way. I'd be 100% ok with a WoW like skill bar and abilities etc. system, but throw in the stances from KOTOR 1/2. Different saber art forms for different situations and different "stances" for different group roles available to all characters. Throw in different strengths and weakness for one saber vs. dual sabers vs. double bladed saber and you have even more options.

The advancement system in KOTOR was pretty lack-luster too. Choose a Jedi class, put points into skills you'd never really use (demolition/security on the main character? wtf. I'd only ever put points in persuasion and healing, I'm a Jedi not a hacker, I have a party of characters for that.) So they'd have to modify that a bit. Putting points into force powers as you level? It'd work, but you'd have to expand on it for non-Jedi players.

There could be a lot of class/skill options though. Jedi could specialize in being offensive with powers (ranged) or offensive with saber (melee.) Defensive with powers/melee. Or a more support class of Jedi. Of course, throw in fact that they are either Light or Dark and with those alone you have 10 classes for Jedi.

Add different melee/ranged/support/hacker/demolitions/etc. for Mandalorian and Droid characters and boom, you have LOTS of options.

So much potential... I think BioWare will put together an incredible MMORPG. If it's the Star Wars universe and KOTOR, I will be extremely happy. Even if it's not KOTOR, it will be a good MMORPG. BioWare doesn't make bad products. Period.

Your thoughts?

ElRenmazuo writes:

I hope theres more races then mandalorians and droids, even though I'll probably be a droid.  But great for diversity and culture within the lore.  And I agree with everthing  else.

Tue Oct 23 2007 2:49PM Report
BadSpock writes:

well, i don't mean for Mandalorians and droids to just be races.

they are races as well as character types, a non-jedi path to follow.

also, players who do follow the path of the Jedi, make a jedi-type character will have a TON of different racial options.

Tue Oct 23 2007 3:15PM Report
ElRenmazuo writes:

Cant mandalorians ever be jedis or is there mitichlorine count impossible for them to be high enough biologicaly?  I never heard of a mandalorian jedi nor have I heard they cant be.  But if they can, that would be one tough jedi.

Tue Oct 23 2007 3:26PM Report
BadSpock writes:

if Bioware makes any mention of mitichlorine's i am not going to play the game.

F mitichlorines

Mandalorians don't need to be Jedi, they are already uber and have armor that is very resistant to lightsaber blades.

Tue Oct 23 2007 3:59PM Report
ElRenmazuo writes:

but mitichlorines is a big part of star wars lore.

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:06PM Report
BadSpock writes:

i hope you are joking. i really, really do.

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:13PM Report
thepatriot writes:

The KOTOR character system is actually based on the PnP SW game by Wizards of the Coast which in turn is based on the Core Rules of DnD.  That's why the skill advancment system, because the game rules are deeper than what was used in KOTOR and they needed something for you to spend points on.

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:14PM Report
BadSpock writes:

star wars existed for over 20 years... 20 years of movies and television and games and toys and books and comics and... everything else...

before Lucas made the STUPIDEST idea of his life to say that Force was actually just some reaction from some little microbes in the blood called mitichlorines.

any Star Wars fan worth talking to will tell you that the mitichlorian dialogue in Episode I and II didn't actually happen. It was never said.

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:16PM Report
BadSpock writes:

well thepatriot, as long as they use the deeper version in their MMO instead of the overly simplistic version from KOTOR, i'll be a happy man.

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:18PM Report
BadSpock writes:

I actually did play the Pnp SW game too but that was long ago, and I've lost many brain cells since then

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:19PM Report
vajuras writes:

how could you compare the boring looking auto attack system in KOTR to MAss Effect which is action RPGish / 3rd person shooter? Bioware has came a long way since KOTR with Jade Dragon (Action RPG) which is realtime combat. anyway didnt play KOTR much at all was turned off by the combat (people fighting with guns standing out in the open wasnt realistc too me).

I'm sure its a gem just like all their other titles though so I mean no disrepect Bioware!

Yeah their alignment system they always have that in all their titles. Will be interesting to see what they do

ive read trilogy star wars books too and i dont recall that mitichlorine BS they presented in the movies

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:41PM Report
ElRenmazuo writes:

George Lucas had the mitichlorine idea ever since the episodes 4 came out for the first time he said it himself.  I dont see whats wrong with that idea anyway, it makes the force have more sense then some spiritual bullshit.  The only reason he didnt decide to make 1-3 before 4-6 because he wanted darth vadars iconic-ness to over -shadow his tragic story. 

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:52PM Report
ElRenmazuo writes:

They did a show on Star Wars in the history channel that explains everything about star wars on how it relates to real life history.  They got interveiws on Lucas explaining everything about miticholrines also. 

Tue Oct 23 2007 4:54PM Report
ElRenmazuo writes:

And the only reason Lucas didnt explain the midichlorines in episodes 4-6 is because they didnt have time for it, he said it him self.

Tue Oct 23 2007 5:04PM Report
BlitzBlade writes:


This is so true! I have to tell you, that KOTOR could be even better than SWG pre-CU. But I think with any great MMORPG, players need to have ownership in game. They need to have the little things like player housing with a place on the map (not instanced). Players need their own ships and vehicles...fully customized!

I will also say that KOTOR needs to be a sandbox game with many outlets for social activities and a number of player events...It's all about the community! Man I could go on and on. But good post! I hope this dream comes to be!

Tue Oct 23 2007 8:24PM Report
neschria writes:

I really enjoyed KOTOR, and as with Morrowind, I kept thinking how much fun it would be to be playing in a world with other people. I don't follow many games-in-development anymore because I'm cynical and jaded these days, but a MMOKOTOR is one I would follow.

Wed Oct 24 2007 7:49AM Report
BadSpock writes:


"spiritual bullshit"

you just lost the respect of 99% of Star Wars fans in the world.

The only thing I can say that I "know" a KOTOR MMORPG made by Bioware WILL have is their alignment type system.

I hope and pray it will also have an influence system based off of dialogue/quest choices the player makes.

Everything else... class vs. skill or sandbox vs. linear etc. etc. etc. we just won't know or can even speculate about until -

1) They (Bioware) confirms it's KOTOR

2) They start releasing info on the game.

Wed Oct 24 2007 9:23AM Report
Serling writes:

Metaphysical does not necessarily equate to spiritual.  Keeping the source of the force hidden and presumed to be a metaphysical source rather than a merely physical one is what lended to the dramatic tension between the technologically-oriented Empire, and the metaphysically-oriented Jedi.

Episodes 4-6 (the original 3) were swords and sorcerers set in space: Arthur Pendragon (Luke), Merlin (Obi Wan), Gwenivere (Leia) and Lancelot (Han).  These are classic - if not epic - archetypes and episodes 1-3 virtually destroyed the lore, not added to it.

And yes, I've forgotten more about Star Wars than most people will ever know.  I saw each of the original releases in 70mm-equipped theaters a dozen times each, and watch the movies on VHS, Laser, and DVD dozens more.

Sorry.  Lucas screwed the pooch with episodes 1-3. 

Wed Oct 24 2007 10:40AM Report
BadSpock writes:

i agree 100% Serling.


Wed Oct 24 2007 10:49AM Report
vajuras writes:

heerboya you are wrong some of us know its Class/Level based. its not hard to guess. Damion Shubbert is on the team and he hates sandbox:

Damion works at Bioware Austin. us sandboxers might be screwed. I'll still follow it though cause i love bioware but i expect a soul sucker for no-life achievers and shitty pvp

Thu Nov 08 2007 1:57PM Report
DaX.9 writes:

episodes 1-3 suck big time. All true sw fans appreciate only 4-6.

And game will probbably be miss, bioware is now under EA and that is bad in my book.

May the force be with you

Thu Dec 13 2007 5:05PM Report writes:
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