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MMORPG.com Videos - MMOFTW Live - E11 - Fixing the Trinity!

This week's MMOFTW focuses on the top news in the MMO world of the week that was (Wildstar, Ultima Forever, SMITE, Neverwinter, SWTOR). Plus the guys formulate how to FIX THE HOLY TRINITY in MMOs (with mixed results). Special Guest: Gabe Mughelli of HiRez Studios.

Duration: 60:47
Views: 3,608  22 comments
Game: General
Direct Link: http://youtu.be/F6GxJHj4w08
InFlamestwo writes: It's super sand! (super saiyan) Fri Feb 15 2013 4:44PM Report
erictlewis writes:

was wondering what happened to just the regular weekly 10 minute segment?

 

Fri Feb 15 2013 7:27PM Report
achesoma writes:

As long as the game is stat-based, then trinity remains supreme as far as group content goes.  People immediately know their roles(well you hope so anyway) and off you go.  Either you have specific roles or you have a zerg fest. 

The problem comes into play when trying to find that one role to fill.  Especially while doing group content when leveling.  Trying to level a tank or heal-bot can be painful.  Give all classes a tank or heal role option.  Instead of a spec, have a dps or heal/tank stance.  LOTRO has a similar mechanic for minstrel and guardian that I feel works very well.  Just make it so swapping stances drains your resource bar so it can't be advantageous to swap during combat for balancing issues.

Wildstar seems to be planning something to remedy missing trinity role woes.  All their announced classes so far have a healing or tank option. 

Fri Feb 15 2013 8:37PM Report
Gravarg writes:

Butt-scratchers! The greatest race ever!

 

I think the biggest problem, for me, with the holy trinity is that you can't get around it.  I mean you can, like GW2, but it doesn't promote interaction.  It makes the game into an online single player game.  I've always been one who loves to group even in content that doesn't need a party.  In both Rift and WoW, I am in a party at least half the time.  It's usually with guildies, and it's just more fun in a group.  I like games that required you to group with other players.  It made the community as a whole more generous, and people were alot less likely to be rude or do something that could get them ignored from future parties.  The Holy Trinity is also good because it gives people a role to do.  If I'm a tank, I know what my job is.  If I'm a healer, I know what I'm expected to do, etc.  In a game where there isn't set roles, you don't really know what you're supposed to be doing.

Fri Feb 15 2013 11:08PM Report
jtcgs writes:

The best thing about Guild Wars 2 is that it proved the MMORPG genre has become filled with players of low skill that cannot learn how to play a game.

My guild has no issues with this game at all. There are enough classes with AoE HoTs that a continual healing can occur as the HoTs stack. It really amazes me that after all these months, so few guilds have LEARNED HOW TO PLAY THE GAME.

Its like watching the threads on Elitist Jerks website with all these people who have called themselves l33t since DaoC with its crap carebear PvP and suddenly they cant figure out how to use an Elementalist to its fullest potential, that its too hard to flip between all 4 elements and keep the HoTs, DoTs and protections up continually despite how many videos are posted showing how to do it.

But, thats the HEART of the problem. People have grown used to facerolling in MMORPGs, one class, defined roll...dont have to THINK. Just hit those 2-5 keys max.

GW2 is just over most peoples heads.

Sat Feb 16 2013 12:00AM Report
rojoArcueid writes:

WHy not keep the trinity but remove the classes. You can be anything but you only get better at what you are training at that time. Get better at any weapon by using them. Same with type of armor. You want to be a healer? train your healing abilities more. Want to tank? get better proficiency with heavy armor + shield more by using them. etc.... That way i would like the trinity.

I like the way GW2 did it but i know it still needs improvement. Still i would prefer this over what we have now. I dont like being stuck to 1 role just because i wanted to play that class.

Sat Feb 16 2013 1:13AM Report
Mithrundir writes: Star Wars Online, must be a different mmo other than The Old Republic? lol Sat Feb 16 2013 12:43PM Report
Grakulen writes: Yes. There was Star Wars Galaxies and then later on Star Wars: The old Republic. Created by two different companies. Sat Feb 16 2013 1:09PM Report
gunmanvlad writes:

I think as far as classes go, one of the best systems is the one in Rift, where u have several specs which u can change on the fly. If you want to tank, u can use a tank set of skills/talents, or if you want to heal go healing-spec, or dps, or DoTs, or whatever. While not every class is perfect for any role, you could do stuff that wasn't top-tier as any class; in the big raids/progression content you were sticking to your best-role + gear set, but if u wanted to take a break from that role, you could do an easier dungeon with a different spec.

GW 2 indeed forced people to either make permanent groups, or not do group content. Zerg-ing (which isn't even possible in new content/patches) is a stupid solution, but most players are too stupid and lazy to figure out tactics. My guild preffered doing dungeons with less people (if a full group wasn't online for a specific thing) rather than getting a random member who would just run into random mobs and die a lot. The general approach was fairly forceful, and not right for the current playerbase.

 

Sat Feb 16 2013 1:09PM Report
BillMurphy writes: @EricTLewis: The five minute recap, you mean? They took hours and hours to prepare each week, whereas the podcast takes just about 3 total.  In an effort to spend our web designer's time on something more productive (like the complete site redesign forthcoming), we decided to cut it for now. Sat Feb 16 2013 2:10PM Report
erictlewis writes:

Hey Bill thanks for the answer, I was just wondering.  I guess a lot of us have no idea of what it takes to put a cast together.  We still apreacate what all you do.  

 

Sat Feb 16 2013 4:28PM Report
Calemon writes: This was one of the better shows Bill, hope to see more like this one. Sat Feb 16 2013 6:27PM Report
Oldskoo writes:

I like the concept of  multiple classes working together to take down the opponent and think the trinity (as well as the utility classes and hybrids found in older fantasy MMOs and in PnP RPGs) is generally a good system because it promotes teamwork.  I do think it could be tweaked to make it more challenging and make a bit more sense though.

IMO, the problem with the trinity in many mmo's, is the entire taunt ability that most tanks use to hold aggro. It makes little sense that a creature (unless it was something of animal intelligence or less) would continue to wail on a player that it could not harm and not go after the bigger threats. Also, this element can lead to stale fights after some time.  

Replace aggro control with a number of abilities and spells found across all classes to help keep the threatened character standing. In old pen and paper games this was game concepts such as  stuns, slows, confusions, illusions, temporary invulnerability, spells that allow the treatened character to blink across the room, trip or other ways to tangle the opponent up at least temporarily, and strong or special attacks that momentarily grab the bad guys attention.

All these (and more) could be created and handed out across the classes to help save the squishy character that has earned the bad guy's attention. I believe it would lead to more interesting and challenging fights while keeping the roles pretty similar to what they have been traditionally in MMOs. 

Sat Feb 16 2013 6:47PM Report
grimfall writes:

If you insist on having a trinity (and really what we should say is a duality, because it's tanks and healers,  no game has ever been short on DPS classes)  you need to do two things. First , make the tanks and healers as fun to play as the DPS classes.  Neverwinter did that, so far, I think (but they're realeasing with 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS classes).

The next thing you need to do is to quit punishing the healing classes and tank classes in the solo parts of the game.  As the guy from Wildstar mentioned last week, PEOPLE DO WHAT IS EASIEST.  When you have DPS classes that roll through single player content 40% faster than healers and tanks do... guess what happenens?  Everyone plays the DPS classes.  It's been happening since the first class based MMO (two solo classes were the most popular) and no one has fixed it in 15 years.

Also, expanding on the duality would help, like EQ did.  Make more roles and have multiple classes that could cover them.  Make CC, DPS, tanking, Healing, Snaring, Mana Regen, Debuffing etc necessary roles for certain content, and give multiple classes the ability to do them.  Shadowknights, can tank and snare, bards can CC and mana regen, Shamans can debuff and heal...  That way, maybe you don't have a cleric and a ranger, but you can go with a warrior and a druid to cover the missing requirements.

The solution isn't in removing the Duality.  It is in expanding it.

Sat Feb 16 2013 8:15PM Report
Hrimnir writes:

Ok, so when you started talking about the Holy Trinity? The sytem you mentioned exists in RIFT and has since release.  Out of combat you can switch to any roll you want.  You get 6 different slots where you can have pre built "builds" so if you need say ranged dps, melee dps, tank, healer, support, you can do all that.

Now, yes, warriors can't heal, and mages can't tank.  Rogues can't main heal.  So yes, there are a couple limitations, but it really isnt a problem.

The reality of the problem is that people generally dont like playing healers.  Its just a percentage of people will do it, and the rest wont, or will do it begrudgingly.

Sat Feb 16 2013 8:42PM Report
Matryoshka writes: I never liked the Rift concept, I felt like it took the whole "pick your class and play as them" idea out of MMOs. I don't want to be a "any class I want on the fly", I want to play a mage, a cleric, a paladin, etc. I want to pick it and go through the game playing as it. It takes the fun out of being loyal to your class and picking what fits your personality, and the whole RPG element out of the game to me. I just didn't like it because of that. Sun Feb 17 2013 6:23AM Report
Holyfleadip writes:

"

That's probably why they zerg in GW2.  Making them heal themselves let alone do proper AOE heals....wtf is wrong with them. lol

I actually like how (forgive me) WOW does it.  Each class can make two pre-builds and make armor pre-swaps (which is an idea taken from player mods), but Bliz has totally messed up the game in every other way possible to the point that it's not even worth looking at (especially their new talents).  However, I did like how they handled the trinity.  Multi class system that are able to do multiple roles.  Each has a dps ability to level with, but a party role with various ablities. 

Another thing that they have messed up...they have made the buffs generic so they do much the same thing from class to class.  But don't worry, they made the game so easy a 4 year old can play it.  Unless you fall a sleep due to bordom...you won't die EVER.

Sun Feb 17 2013 10:40AM Report
Holyfleadip writes:

Grrr, I miss Vanilla WOW.  They had a good formula for exploration and difficulty level.  They didn't hand it to you on a silver platter and force you to end game in a few days.

Why do all these EQ clones copy WOWs stupid ideas (and vice verse) and claim it's a great game?  What happen to making a challenge?

I have a concept for a new game that would kick start your burning blood.  I just have to figure out who and how to sell it.  I don't even care about making a dime.  I just want to find a company that will take the idea and hold to its path of glory.  However, I guess many of us have those. 

Sun Feb 17 2013 10:53AM Report
Matryoshka writes: I totally agree. I hate WoW in its current state, but they definitely did the class system right. Sun Feb 17 2013 4:19PM Report
Dixi01 writes:

Trinity is simpified version, adopted for large audience of semi-newbies.

If we look on origial Everquest, there are many more interetsting and important roles, like:

-Puller

-buffer/debuffer

-Crowd Controller

Some of them could be skipped, for easy content, but all were mandatory for hard group content and raids.

Sun Feb 17 2013 6:33PM Report
Scot writes:

All these broadcasts have the same issue for me. The sound is not the same level for the three guys. Bill is always the quitest one, middle guy (Gabe this week) is somewhat louder, bottom guy is the loudest.

This is the same every time, some sort of tech issue?

Mon Feb 18 2013 4:52AM Report
winter writes:

I second what ericlewis asked.

Whatever did happen to the nice little 10 mins semi weeekly segments Bill used to do ? Everyone has their own taste but i liked those alot better then having to wait through 30 mins of 3 guys shooting the breeze while one movie/game trailer repeats on a endless loop with no sound to see if anything of interest is finally mentioned about the game i am interested in.

Mon Feb 18 2013 10:50AM Report

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