Don't Hate the Player...
Dan Fortier is back with a new edition of MMOWTF.
Editorial By Dan Fortier on November 13, 2006
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MMOWTF: Don't Hate the Player...
Weekly Column by Dan Fortier
Welcome back to another week of irresponsible and shortsighted insights. I'd like to start by getting something off my chest: I like killing people. I like killing people a LOT. The weaker and less able to defend themselves, the better I feel. In fact, I think I'd go so far as to say that the most fun I've ever had in a game were the times when I brutally butchered people who had absolutely no chance to fight back or even escape. It is my indulgence in this sick pleasure that really makes online games worth playing for me. I find that the real joy in PvP games isn't in simply beating your opponent, but in humiliating them afterwards by dancing, yelling and generally acting like a four year old with too much sugar after you tell him 'No'. There are few things in life as great as zerging a non-combat specialized player with twice as many people and camping their corpse for a several hours afterward just to get them even more upset. Victory over a helpless opponent is all the more sweet when they send you hate mail and threaten to do horrible things if they ever find out where you live in real life. The idea of being in a pitched battle with a chance of losing doesn't hold any particular interest for me. If I wanted to play a game with forced equality I'd be playing an FPS. Letting silly things like honor and fair play influence your playing style is just a recipe for getting your ass handed to you. Catching enemies unaware, busy or unprepared is the meat and drink of the Art of War and as I see it, being victorious and ignoble is much better then being a noble loser. Morality and courage don't have any place on the battlefield unless they help you win because might make right, especially in MMOs. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing packet sniffers, duped items or other such implements of blatant cheatery. I'm just out to have fun and if that happens to involve using tactics others find cowardly or unfair then so be it. On small servers you can actually get quite a reputation for this style of play and the constant visits from GM's are always amusing. However, in the great tradition of lowlifes and most celebrities I'm going to blame someone else. Griefers are just using the tools the developers give them to cause trouble and enjoy themselves at the expense of others. Why else would a designer put a game mechanic that leaves items on your body when you die if they didn't expect players to camp it? Why else would they put guards you can kill in a safe zone if they weren't secretly hoping a big group would barge in and slaughter the civilians? Certain games that don't invite this behavior make it obvious in their design. In Dark Age of Camelot can you run around in Jordhiem killing people? Obviously they decided that having a safe area even in a PvP game was something they wanted. Anyone who knows human nature shouldn't be surprised at anything that happens in an online battleground. There is no denying that Free-for-All killers are in the minority and games that have tried to exclusively cater to their mind set have either become a victim of their own success or are so buggy or unbalanced that they never developed a huge following. I like the idea of being responsible for your actions and letting players who wish to lead lifestyle of unremitting violence do so at the cost of being wanted. This kind of game mechanic actually enhances the thrill of being a mass murderer while providing some form of justice in the eyes of the victims. Speaking of victims, there is special relationship between the PKer and Carebear that transcends love and hate. Their rivalry is made all the more intense by the mutual realization that they need each other. If we learned anything from Ultima Online's Felucca exodus, it is that a balance between the two extremes needs to be kept. In a game without some form of PvP combat all you can look forward to is endless grinds and raids against the same predictable AI. While the two styles don't meld well in traditional MMORPG games, the lack of either becomes an obvious detraction after a while. Variety is the spice of life and being able to pick your poison in a well designed game is something that has a universal appeal. My message is simple, don't hate the player, hate the game. Everyone has had a bit of fun at someone's expense one time or another so what's wrong with some anonymous virtual bullying? If you survived high school you should be able to handle it in an online game. Next time you're in Rivervale, Yew or Tartoken don't forget to watch your back because we'll be there waiting. I'm finished for now so if there something you want to say, but want to use a fake name, you are in luck...We have forums! Keep it warm until next week.
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So is this guy a giant dick in real life too?
And thank you Dan, because of idiots like you, developers are going more and more the route of boring ride-on-a-rail gameplay design.
Because they don't like it when morons like you, that make up less than 1% of the games population, make 10% or more of their customers quit by using lame ass gameplay and constantly acting like douches.
Ohh, and then go off and write self-agrandizing colomns about how it's not his fault that he acts like a complete douche, but the developers.
The only one thing I have to give you credit for is the fact that you admit to it, while others will pretend not to.
It is my core belief after having read articles from developers of some of the earlier MMO's with pvp, that pvp has been taken way out of context by people as the author. it was deviced as a challange, because fighting a computer is just that, fighting an inhuman thing with no glory or real threat. it wins because of numbers, not because of skill. So pvp was made to fit people together to force them to use skill and strategy to fight off another. But at the time there were more people who followed a code of honor in the battlefield and that is if they have zero chanse of escaping or defending themselves, and they've initiated no hostol action, then they are to be left alone for the sake that they can find a battle they can enjoy. This rule is broken when they are snooping around your faction's property or gear and could somehow contribute to a battle you are currently in. Otherwise, in general, this unwriten rule of the warrior is obayed.
Now, for the sake of RP, I will bite my tongue and accept there being a higher level killing a much lower level, but when it gets to the point of hurrasing that individual, where you decide there's something so special about you that you deserve having a great time more then they do, so you're going to camp their only means of equipment, then you no longer are a part of the comunity and have no business being there. Doing it once is cool, yeah you're a murderer and you can play that out, but even most murderers have some class. There are many arguments as to why people do it, but in the end there's something called logic that kicks in: What you do with yourself in your own time which causes no direct harm on to others is cool. you can smoke, drink, whatever. But the moment you force the action onto others (like smoking in a closed area where they are forced to breath your air) and cause them discumfort for your own pleasure, you no longer show the ability to process logic.
Bottom line is that pvp is ment for a challange, you wanna kill something in one hit, kill a mob, or kill a player who's poaching around or causing issues otherwise. But you cross the line when you hurrase them.
I'm the guy that will go out of my way to balance the scale.
I believe in the golden rule, to such extend that I will make someone's life miserable for their actions till they completely feel like crap. You wanna steal my kills or someone elses kills repeatedly? that's cool, I'll return the favor. You decide to camp lowbie or newbie corpses? That's fine too, but in a few weeks if I still see you in the game, I'll be there to return the favor. I've had someone only a few levels lower than me complain because I was whiping their hide and braught along extra people incase they decide to show up with help. They cried and cursed and acted like they were inocent, but in the end they got the point.
And you can't place the blame on the game, simply because in all games you will find the handfull of disrespectful indivenduals who have no honor. If it were one or two games, wouldn't be half as bad as an issue. The reason most people support open pvp is because of the RP sense, the challange, but a challange they can fight back, or run from. People like motes to cross, not oceans. What is impossible odds (such that a level 5 can get away from a level 50 who's on their heals) kills the fun factor. But if there's a chanse I could kill you, or be killed by you, or that I could get away from you, then I'm having a ball. If you can get away from me, hats off, but if you can't, at least you had a chanse.
Okay....so the author starts off by telling us that he's an asshole and then proceeds to share his opinion?
Aren't columns supposed to be insightful or thought-provoking? This is none of the above.
Thought I'd just throw in my 2cents after reading your replies. I recognise myself in much of what you say. Anytime I hear there's a new MMO allowing PvP I have these grand visions of claiming my own bridge or something to sit at and kill anyone coming to cross. Problem is I'm not able to keep with my own plan. I'll elaborate.
Having first been introduced to PvP in AO's Notum Wars I'm all with the whole "chase down anyone you see and kill them, the more often the better. Expect zergs to own you and zerg when you can". Fair play is a FPS/RTS staple, not with RPGs, but at WoW in particular I kept getting a bad conscience for PKing without any motive like defending my own patch of notum or whatever. The first kill is good, it's payback for whoever killed you while you were grinding and you already discouraged the other guy from being in your zone, second kill of same guy isn't quite as good cause the other guy knows who's going to get shafted and either legs it or fights and dies again. I know damn well he's there by his own free will, aware of the pvp rules and whatever, but still I feel bad about it so I leave him :P So, usually in those kind of games I end up just PvEing the lvl/item grind till I burn out and quit.
I also love deathmatch FPS games. Not intending to brag (I DO suck ALOT at many of them), but there are certain maps in certain games I play enough to really know inside out and in those situations I usually can't be bothered to play if there isn't a challenge and a chance at being beaten by someone else who knows what he's doing. PlanetSide comes to mind, I'd often go somewhere to create my hotspot and hope for some pro to see it and come defend his turf. I could punish a squad of newbs for hours experimenting to find new ways to sneak up on them and take them one or all at a time till they left or called in help from someone who could play (ie my goal gets achieved). And that way I spent ages in tense, but extremely rewarding fights once you get a good opponent. I wish MMORPGs were like that too, but to recap my opinion: the PvP focused MMOs are so few and far between that I usually get into the "griefer" role for only like 5% of my total playtime, rest being based on helping out, dungeon crawling with groups as healer/bard, carebearing with giving free endgame items to mid-lvls with manners who don't look like they might quit within the hour, etc.
Many people, and I'm sure you'll see more of that trend in this thread too, can be bitching to no end about griefing, but it's really a trivial issue. When on the recieving side, if I can't get away I'll just keep respawning at the exact same location doing nothing at all and after a random number of deaths the offender usually gets fed up and leaves (unless it's some kind of capture point/flag/ground he needs), at which point I alt-tab back into the game or turn off the tv again to continue playing. I'd compare it with quicksand: Some "whiners" seem to actually _want_ to struggle and get more upset; I have a hard time believing those "victims" didn't have alternatives to get out of the situtation (temporarily logging off included - seeing a name go off /who doesn't leave much reason to sit back and camp more). So, yeah, I like your conclusion alot: Blame the game (or yourself) ;)
Would also like to point out Eve is still going as strong as ever and is build around FFA rules and a player's turf -mindset. It's not my cup of tea, but it's one of those few exceptions to the rule which it wouldn't hurt if there were a few more games taking inspiration from.
Don't take Dan so seriously. This article is satire to illustrate the point that PvP In most MMORPGS is flawed in the sense they can create problem players by its design.
I chuckled as I pictured Dan next to my 6 year old playing Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat and he pounds my kids avatar endlessly. He jumps up and does a goofy dance after each victory and says "OWNT!" until the kid bursts into tears.
Another image in Senfield where Kramer takes karate lessons in a kids class. The 6 ft adult spars with kids whose heads touch his belt and he pounds them until he is victorious.
Like Brad McQuaid or not, he put it best by saying
Creating an unrestricted PvP online game isn't that hard, especially when it's a persistent RPG world (yes, making an FPS is hard, no disrespect to those guys).
What's challenging and arguably not totally solved is creating an MMO that is PvP centric but keeps people around, all are entertained at least some of the time, character power is balanced with player knowledge and 'twitch' abilities, etc.
A player can never be allowed to derive his or her fun at the expense of another player's fun, or, worse yet, several or many other player's fun.
As others posted, the type of player who is like a wolf and must prey on sheep really isn't compatible with these games, even if they were dedicated to PvP. The sheep get eaten and go away. It doesn't work. You can't have fun by making someone else not have fun. Well, you can, but you'll have a game with some serious problems, especially with long term retention. Because after the sheep leave, then the wolf does too, having no more sheep to consume.
Now if he was really serious he would post a pic of his avatar with name and the server he was on.. :)
This article is nothing but rife with the same logic that exploiters and cheaters use to justify their actions. Blame the developers for not stopping me from doing this. Its the same logic a thief, a murder, and an extortionist uses. Its their fault for not preventing me from doing this.
And if this article is meant to be a satire, sorry I don't see it nor do I believe it. It is far to straight to the opinion with a very agressive tone that he is right and everyone else is wrong. Definately not a comedian waiting to burst forth from this guy.
So far all his articles have been nothing but a spewing forth of opinions and baseless thoughts without any correlation or support by facts, outside opinions. Just soley the opinion of a single individual that seems to have a greater then though complex. Fortunately for me it makes great material to show my class how not to write an article or debate. As this is nothing more then a fluffed up blog.
He makes an excellent point about the people that are doing these things that most call disdainful. If the game supports it, then why not?
The most fun me and two friends ever had in a beta was when Lineage 2 came out and we PK'ed to our hearts content. We had low-levels running for the hills while we one-shotted newbies and anyone we could. To hear people yelling that a Pker was near never got old.
I definitely see where he's coming from. It's a hell of a lot of fun to kill people over and over, and if the game has no way of curbing this playstyle, then what's the point in stopping if it's more fun than the grind that you're "supposed" to have fun doing.
The reason I play EVE. It's friendly to Pirates, Carebears, and all those in between. :)
Hooray for Pkers. They make the games truly fun. :p
EDIT: accidently said I wrote it. hahaha
Sad fact, but true.
I liked this article. I've played games with this, and i agree this is the most exhilirating playstyle in my opinion.
Back in Neocron, if you killed a player from an enemy faction..your soullight (kinda like karma..i guess?) would go up (thats a good thing). if you killed a member of your own faction, it'd go down. So it brought a good amount of war in the game...there was huge amounts of PvP, and PvE.
If a player went amok killing innocents or whatnot, their name would be displayed on ever ingame computer system. Therefore hunters could go out on a hunt, and kill the bastard, and maybe the weapon that they've been killing with would be dropped.
So i think..in an OPEN pvp environment, there will be mass killing, but there will also be mass punishment for the killers...and so on. At least from what i saw.
:-/
Not sure what the hell you just said. But you did use a smiley face, which is like punctuation. But when the killer kills the noobs...when the noobs get bigger and stronger they could always get their vengeance.
Idk in a level based game, but in a skillbased im sure it'd be possible.
I won't call Dan names cuz he or people like him are the reason I wasted $50 on Lineage II. I was constantly getting grief killed by people way higher level than me, and twinked out to the max. It was simply no fun trying to establish a character. So I quit, kissing my $50 goodbye. Did it have to be that way? Is there another way? Would it be difficult to implement? The answers my friend are No, Yes, and not that hard.
What are the three biggest griefing issues? 1. Camping starter zones
2. camping bodies
3. Grief kills by higher level characters.
All of these issues are adressable by coding (Heck, any issue is). The solutions are:
1. making starter zones non-pvp areas
2. giving a "timeout period" of 1-2 min for people coming out of death
in which that player may not pvp or be pvp'd
3. Making it impossible for players to initiate pvp with another character more than a few levels different from their own. (this would vary by game.
None of these issues is insurmountable nor difficult to fix. That developers don't, indicates that they don't want to, which makes me wonder why, considering how some games with broken pvp systems have simply died or never got off the ground (so to speak). Go figure, I thought this was a business.
I like a good pvp fight, and by good I mean challenging. Getting the drop on someone 10 levels lower than me, whose back is turned, is well...meaningless.
So crappy logic Dan, but a really good point. It is the developers fault to a certain degree. But to say your juvenile behaviour is all thier fault is like saying to a gun manufacturer "the reason I shot billy joe is because you made that gun". That logic doesnt stand up in court, and neither does your story.
Rigghawk
Is these articles just meant to cause reaction? I guess they work if so. I accept his points of war and tactics. I totally understand that if this was real. Take out all the trainees and soon there is no enemies left that are a challenge if slowly getting the veterans. This is a game though and about enjoyment. As was pointed out from a developer quote, there is not going to be a game for long if the wolves are not kept in check. That is not the players role. They are playing to have fun and not many want to be the law as well.
dont forget to mention that you are meant to cheat and exploit too since this is 'what the developers' gave us [/sarcasm]
my only real problem with griefers, gankers and exploiters is that they are the worst whiners when it happens to themself. especially lowbie gankers/campers are in most cases the ones that run as fast as possible as far as possible once they get aware of an almost even, even or higher level enemy ^^
...just to go to the next public area (or chat) and whine about being ganked or to show off how many people they have killed this day.
I hate the developers for making it possible, but truth is, I hate these players too. Shame on me :)
You are right. It's a very small way between balance and unbalanced fight. And there is no fun in a stupid raiding game. I fear games are like the people behind. If you have a look behind, you can see. If there is a developer whose only fun is raiding, what kind of game he will bring?
If a developer don't care about PvP - fair PvP - there will be none.
And I like to kill these f+++ bastards when they killed my twink with a stronger char and I log in with my main and I can really hear them cry. "mummy" when I make this one-hit-instant-dead-shot and they fell in the sand. And I am here, near by their corpse. Waiting. Yes, I know this feeling.
Concerning this article, I disagree with everything in it.
I say, Hate the player. hate me. I love killing other players, and I love being hated by them after I spit on them... (seems like I could never get /piss to work?)...The whole point of killing people while they are questing is to make their life hard. The whole point of playing on a pvp server is so you can experience the chaos that results from human actions, and get away from the easily predictable behavior of mobs and thier moronic AI where they just stand at some spot, stareing in a northerly direction... do they eat? breed? go crazy and just run after you for 20 minutes? NO... they are dumb mobs, built for dumb, factory-working types who enjoy killing 20 rats and collecting thier tails!
Griefers are the 'true-evil' in MMOs... and anyone who can't see that should just play PVE servers/games. And without some real evil, what do you have really? might as well play with barbie dolls imo.
Also, don't blame the devs, praise them. They turned on a pvp server so people could kill each other with impunity. My only criticism of devs is that they don't go far enough. I wanted a free-for-all server in WoW, but never got it. ugh.
And finally, because I'm sure some dweeb is gonna whine about how I'm saying all games should be free-for-all pvp, I love playing many pve games. I say we should have both types of games, maybe both types of servers with the same game, and everyone plays what they want when they want it. Freedom. It's ok if people are different; and neither pvp or pve is innately better than the other... different people like different things; and devs should make what people want.... well, if they plan on staying in business, then they will or they will be doing something else...
(just my 2 cents)
1. kill some griefer, stomp on him, and make him run home crying to his mommy.
OR
2. kill 20 rats and collect thier tails?
see what I mean? be honest with yourself... pvp is just plain fun. Honestly, I was more inspired when I lost than when I won... I have to think someone is near catatonic if they can get a woodie killing 20 rats as opposed to getting even with a griefer... jeeze.
EDITED: OH, and one more thing... both of the above posts are overgeneralizing on the nature of PVPers; insinuating they are kids or young or whatever. I honestly wish I was young, but I'm not... 40+. And sex is not an issue either, cause some of the meanest, most griefing evil players I've ever encountered have been females over 25... lol. And finally, YES, murder and rape in the real world are evil, and without some evil around, good has no meaning. There can be no light without dark (Legend... hehe). The real question you have to ask yourself is do you want to play a dynamic, unpredictable game, or kill 20 rats and collect their tails?
I believe in "open" pvp and feel if you can't hack it - you shouldnt play it.
The fact is I don't grief, I am actually a pk hunter - thats the role I like - without griefers who would I hunt?
I truly hope that more games like Shadowbane and DAOC are introduced into the marketplace and less games like L2 and Archlord.
Make a good system where you actually have something to loose if you get killed, and greifers would truly be a minority. Not like in wow where you kill someone just cus you can, and should you get killed you will not loose more then the 30sec it takes to run back to your corpse.
Its not evil to kill someone over and over just cus you can. Its plain stupid.
PS
You could be old in age, but a kid just the same
This artical shows allot of thing but it does not and can never describe a true gamer,, they have no clue that even in War there are still rules, yes maybe designers creat a game for mature people and maybe they also think that some of that maturity will show in their games, unfortunly there are some people like the auteur that because it is possible in a game it should be done, i must say sorry to children i might have pointed a finger at cause i always thought it was some child doing stupid stuff like that but it seems people that should be mature of age to be such bad gamers aswell, reason why i always thought it was little children acting like this is that mostly if something like in the topic said/typed happens in my games it mostly happens late in the afternoon(think school is out) or sunday's when mom and dad let them play on the computer, mostly during evenings or late midnight you mostly see mature gamers.
I also am of mind that if you enjoy the things explained in the topic that you must have a reall sad life to get enjoyment out of gaming the way of the topic.
Maybe the artical was writt'n with sarcasme in mind or to just show how stupid of a gamer you might be but unfortunaly at some points it hold truth on how some in-mature people play games.
First, there's no way around his reasoning: if the game allows it then you accept it by playing.
Second, guys like that are dicks, satire or not. So he makes an interesting point about at least a portion of the player base of FFA PvP games.
Third, there is a serious factual error in the article. Griefers may need pray, but PvE players absolutely don't need PvP players, no matter what he thinks UO showed. I mean, what he's saying is that PvE players want to be griefed since otherwise the game becomes, gosh, too PvE. Please save us from that fate, I secretly hate my chosen playstyle.
That half-life game was so stupid....i mean it was all PvE!
Would have been so much better with every enemy bunny hopping and speed hacking!
Serious: EQ (all PvE) still has a larger subscriber base than UO does. EQ has almost completely shut down their "griefing allowed" servers, and the same with DAoCs.
I believe the only reason that they keep those last servers on life support is to keep the idiots there, rather than having them trying their hardest to grief people on regular servers and spamming message boards constantly about how the company has "abandoned the massive audience of PvP griefers" (less than 500 per game)
What's the point of this article? Despite the columnist displaying classic case of narcissism and in need of serious psychological counseling, I'm not sure what he is trying to prove? This guy is a senior editor? What is most disturbing is that he describes the exact thought process of murderers and rapists. Yes, I know he is talking about a game but not once does he mention enjoyment roleplaying as an "evil" character. He enjoys getting real life threats! Sounds like Mr Fortier had some insecure attachment issues as a child as well. If this is all suppose to be sarcasm then I apologize to Mr Fortier.
Just like the guild to the funeral of a real person if this isnt sarcasm then go play your pvp or whatever.
I would rather duel for honor then be an annoying little pissant that gets their jollies off by bullying people.
Good article :p
And to all the carebear whiners, if you dont like the PvP in a certain game, either dont play it or try to convince the dev to change it.
RvR in DAoC was great, to kill or to be killed.
PvP in WoW had it's moments :p I loved getting even with the feckin Alliance in STV for killing me when I was young and unexperienced. ( I played an Undead Shadow priest, and made no difference if they were grey, yellow, only 1 or 2+ players, they had to die :p I was lvl 40 to 45 then, and the best time I had was when I could kill 3 other players of the same level as me at the same time :p )
There were days I wanted to do a certain quest, but it never got done cause I kept killing those Alliance scum :p
To me it was also a sort of RP, they were the enemy, they must die ! :p
I did not really like the BG's in WoW.
Anyway, I agree it are the PvP rules and design that allow things to happen, so expect people to play by the rules. If you cant handle the rules, go play another game.
Edit :
Oh and I play EvE now, prolly one of the biggest "griefer" game of all.
In EvE, the stronger players gather a few battleships and stand at the gate, there they camp and shoot every newb out of the sky.
Been playing EvE for about 1,5 months now and lost already around 10 ships to those gank squads. But I still keep running missions in lowsec, just cause of the thrill. Eventually I will be strong enough to go bounty hunting those feckers and get even :p
I can understand that carebears wont like this game, and should stay away from it, or just stay in highsec and never experience the true game of EvE :p
I do agree however that you should be able to do either or both. Like in EvE, you can stay in Highsec and run missions ( this should be improved alot ). You can run missions in lowsec and run into forced PvP. Or you can join a corp and go fulltime PvP in 0.0
Having the options is great, just like in DAoC. DAoC was actually better in this, cause you had a pretty good worked out PvE game there.
Greetings,
CyberGh0st.
The article is flawed because not all games that have PvP in them allow the PKer to loot a corpse. Take SWG for example, we cannot loot a corpse. Yet there are many who still like to stand over the the corpse just to act like asshats and humiliate the player they killed. They spam their victories with stuff like I pwnd joo noob and that's the nicer one of the statements they make. There are players who take pride in killing low level players. How the hell does that show any skill on the part of the PKer? Then there are players who think they are awesome because they can blow up a player's vehicle. Oh yeah, that takes some skill.
There are griefers who like to disrupt player events even if they aren't in a PvP zone. Can't blame everything on game mechanics, at some point players have to take responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, those types of players don't give a damn about what anyone thinks about them.
the question is: why not hate the player ?
1. in real life terms if you are an idiot that likes to beat up kids and lough about it a lot of people with clear minds would hate you
2. in game if you like to play a thief, a murderer a griefer there will be others that play paladins, avengers, holy men that have a justified (rpg) hate fiuling them to oppose you
in both cases hate for the player/char is justified imho
either you are an asshole or you play an asshole but hating an asshole either ingame or irl are positive traits of humanity. to be an asshole and expect not to be hated is the real screwed up thing imho.
It's unbelievable how strongly people hate Dan cause he doesn't put a little sugar in his articles. Even the pinkest carebear out there has been questing and come across another player 20 levels below him who is flagged. Why would you not kill him? Just because he gets a certain sick satisfaction from putting actual people in the ground instead of bots, he should be fired and this is the "worst article I have read"?????
All your whining is doing is encouraging people like me to kill everyone I come across in the hopes that instead of just rezzing and getting back to work, you are actually crying, slamming your keyboard and throwing things around the room. And based on the responses to this article, that is pretty likely.
If this article was a typical forum post, people would just assume the author was a baiting troll.
I personally, don't believe that he spends as much time griefing as he claims, nobody really does..
But by stating that he gets his ultimate thrills by griefing defenseless players, he is only testifying to his own shortcommings in pvp.
While it's amusing to 2-shot a noob as you pass by, it doesn't even compare to the real heartpounding thrill I have gotten from a real challenge.
In other words, Lern2Play Noob.
Obviously there has to be a point to PvP and a way to make player based punishment hurt like all hell. If a PKer has nothing to lose by getting punished by the otherside then the game is out of balance and folks who just want to screw with other people and not really play the game will have an open field.
I see harsh faction/RvR as the way to go. You can kill anyone you want but your god will probably have something to say about you killing a fellow worshiper. You want to be an agnostic assassin? No problem but you better be damn good at first aid 'cause a god will allow their clerics to cast a heal on you.
Dan is right that the game developers have the power to limited the ability of players to be jerks in a PvP environment. His "Modest Proposal" style unfortunately confused the issue.
There are games out there for people like you. Go play WoW, or EQ. Any game where you have a very small or no penalty for dying and a very small area for killing other human players is not an MMO worth playing. You need consequences. You need to have that risk of losing that great item in your inventory or dropping that stellar weapon you're using. You need some penalty for dying so you can't just jump back into the fight 30 second's later. You need that reward for hunting down players.
To harsh? Want us to "Get a life, stop griefing on the internet" too bad, this is what games are for. Do you tell football players not to tackle each other so hard or often? Do you tell ask a race car driver to slow down or not drive as aggressively? To us this is a competitive enviroment, and in that enviroment if the game allows us to kill you at that current point, we may or may not take that opportunity. Cry, more. Please. It's a damn game, you are crying over pixels, 1's and 0's for god sakes. If you can't handle the competition, not able to level cause you might die, grow a pair and do something about it. Level in groups, join a guild or clan that will help you. Play smart.
Carebears for the lose.
so?ci?o?path? /?so?
–noun Psychiatry. a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.
And Shadowbane is an example of good PvP?? the pvp community caused the game to be basically reset and all but abandoned, ie free till they come up with something useful to use the hardware for. Most pvp isnt anything at all about hadeling challange, most pvpers i have seen can't handle any challanging fight and scream cheater/hakcer when they do, all they are capable of is killing far weaker opponents who are completly unable to defend themselves, thats the treu essance of PVP from UO
Sure a football player can go around and tackle other players. But he risks getting a red card dosnt he? What do you risk in a game like WoW? Absolutely nothing.
Im not whining about PVP, im whining about poor game design. Id rather play a game where you only have one life then PVP in WoW.
What's sad, Dan, is that developers and publishers have not learned anything from the mistakes of prior game generations. The same pvp system weaknesses we saw back in 1999 on Asheron's Call Darktide server (open pvp) persist in games being released in 2006.
We the players have learned. Why haven't the developers?
That is all I have to say on this Article!!
Now can we please get a columnist over the age of 12 to take over the editorials?
And before the screams of "carebear" start rolling in from the spine-inpaired gankers know that I've spent over a year in EVE killing and being killed with the rest of them. I have no problems with taking a beating when I deserve it. I also don't feel it makes me a bigger badder man of war to kick the crap out of a 1 week player still trying to learn how to operate their "starter ship".
But hey, if it's the only way to boost your obvious low self exteme go for it, it's just a game junior.
OMG OMG OMG Dan, you are soooo playing the wrong game... You ought to be playing EvE Online:Griefers Heaven. Or are you? My bets are you are in control of the ratings on the website then as well... :D
Seriously awesome read and nice to see the excuses of a griefer by choice all listed into one article, kinda feels like the VNBoards but then wrapped up into one article... :D
Well an article written by Dan that basically says "hey everyone I'm an a**hole and proud of it"? I begin to wonder if Dan was the school bully when he was younger, or maybe he never grew out of it?
I enjoy pvp but I can't see how ganking someone half your level who has no chance of beating you is any challenge at all. I get a better feeling of accomplishment by beating a worthy opponent, someone who has a real chance of beating me. To me, ganking is like playing a FPS on god mode, could be fun for a few minutes but then gets boring real quick.
You tell people to grow a pair. I find that amusing, as you cannot yourself have a "pair" You sound like the kid who was picked on in the schoolyard, and the only outlet you can find is being a loud child online. This is why bullys should be publicly shot. To prevent their victims from polluting online games. If your not a child, your giving real children a bad name. Well behaved children are called, young men and women. Adults and children who act so poorly are called the problem with online games. If as many people were maladjusted as you think, there would be many more free for all games.
As to the writer of the article, he should be applauded. To be one of the problems with online games, and still get paid to talk about them, thats impressive.
Yeah we know PvPers re a minority and greifers are an even bigger minority, but I don't think I've seen that point of veiw shared so well. Also making the comment about lowlifes and celebrities blaming someone else makes me think he was just screwing with us.
Thanks for the laugh
Competition is irrelevent. Fairness is irrelevent. SKILL in an MMO?? Give me a break!! Go play css, ut, or some RTS games if you are interested in skill. MMOs are just big virtual worlds where you pretend to be some other character and run around doing stuff. And being persistent characters, the ability to win any given fight is a function of:
- how much time you've spent in the virtual world.
- how the devs have made your class skills relative to whoever you are fighting.
MMO = no-skill-involved.
And considering the state of AI in games, we need people to fill the role of the bad guys, cause killing virtual orcs is mind-numbingly easy. We need griefers. We need ninja looters. We need con-men. Why? Because that gives you self-righteous, questing, feel great about killing 20 rats, type of people someone to hate, hunt, and join together to fight against.
You seek ORDER and FAIRNESS, but sadly enough, IF you ever attain it, you will be bored out of your mind and start posting about how blah game doesn't have any end-game content etc. If game developers ever hope to create a continuously interesting virtual world, they need to increase the ways and means that player X can cause player Y's life to be a living hell. This troll-bait article is just more evidence that most devs are heading down the 'boring' path imo...
poor dan though.
and poor rest of the mmorpg community to the rest of us, making devs have to go carebear on us to have a large enough community to be worth it.
I viewed this article as a giant attempt at trolling, with the intent of provoking the sort of outrage that many are exhibiting here. (I think he just managed to pull off a literary "gank")
I'm basically a carebear who in D&D games plays Lawful Neutral. That said, I (sometimes) enjoy PvP servers and the challenge of outwitting the gankers. It helps keep leveling up more interesting.
I used to love playing on the FFA PvP server in DAOC..but it wasn't nearly as fun in WOW so I eventually re-rolled a few characters on the Pve servers.
I enjoy games where you can have designated guild enemies.... then I can feel justified in griefing their lowbies or whatever. But just random killing of neutral (and defenseless) players? Absolutely no appeal to me here...
Some of us play MMO's with our own code of honor, some like Dan obviously don't. That's cool with me, I don't expect everyone to bring the same set of morals to the game that I do, and it doesn't make me mad (well, not much) that there are such a$$hats out there. They do add spice to the game.
I recall one guild in DAOC that had a simiple motto...kill every player you come across, regardless of guild, level or balance (called the Slayers). I really hated running into those guys, and once I got to 50 I made sure they they always died...no matter what the circumstances... no mercy for any reason.... gave the game a nice edge to it....
So no, I don't hate players like Dan... they do make the game more fun in most cases.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a large fan of PVP. It makes clan based activities a lot more fun, which is my big thing.
But people like that make me sick. Just because the developer made it so its possible for people to kill openly does not mean it's their fault if you act like an asshole. In comparing it to the bully on the playground, you equate yourself to a fifth-grader. It's not the developers fault just because some immature jerk-wad decides to play their game. They aren't the wisest of game designers if they don't build any sort of anti-grief mechanisms in, but then their game will probably fail.
So they either learn from the failure, or find a new industry to work in.
This is why I like games where you can only kill people within a small level difference of yourself or you face sever penalties.
Few MMOs focus on PvP from the get go and often only add it as an after thought due to a minority demand. It is no wonder then that these games end up with griefers etc. The industry has had a decade since UO to realize the advantages to PvP and UO's failures in execution. We've seen a number of games come and some go. There is no reason for players to be subject to failures of past systems. We've also seen a number of successful PvP implementations, which are promptly forgotten by the next release. Safe zones, criminal/bounty systems, soul-bound equipment etc. are all successful measures. I'm sure there are more beyond these; however, if even the most basic of PvP systems is neglected, we'll never see more effective systems come into existence. Dev teams neglect simple in-game measures which then have to be inefficiently covered by CSRs, who, we all know, are exceptional at resolving problems quickly and effectively.
Another important point that Dan pointed out is that MMO's have very little to offer if they focus exclusively on any one thing. PvE gets old fast. Dev teams can't continually add content at a fast enough rate to keep up with players. PvP, without reprieve, also gets boring rather quickly. I don't know about other people but I can only play Guild Wars' PvP for about two hours before I fall asleep; there's no variation (not to mention that after one play-through, the missions become incredibly tedious).
I realize this "conversation" will probably continue to focus on how much of a "sociopath" Dan is and continue to neglect the real points. It doesn't matter whether Dan is sick or not (not that I particularly think he is; of course, I'm assuming that he's making a point rather than stating a daily routine). What matters is that griefers do exist and do have a persistent, pernicious effect on games. Even if it's just one percent of the population it must still be guarded against, just as our society guards against theft and murder. Perhaps it's the fact that it's such a small minority of players that ruin the game for the rest, or the fact that the devs are just ignorant of the situation. All I know is that something needs to be done about the situation and should already have been done, and that this board will have absolutely no effect if it focuses on Dan rather than the problems with MMOs.
I've never been against PVP, loved EVE because it was an open PVP enviroment (though I was what was classed as a carebear because I didn't fight) but the fact you could PVP everywhere was good in my opinion.
What I don't like are theve griefers and 1337 speak people who obviously, as a previous post suggested, are either the poor beaten up kids in the playground or the bullies themselves.
Due to the fact that the internet is the ultimate in doing an action and having no come back on it (sorry late and knackered would word it better) the little special people of the world (sociopaths as someone else pointed out) can have their free for all.
If I was a woman (as most of these people are men, I've not heard of a female griefer) and going out with a guy like this, I would leave as one day he might turn it onto you, if he could get away with it of course.
What to do about these people are really the real question, well other than a bolt gun to their temple in real life, I think just let them be and point and laugh at them when they do it to you, they like you getting annoyed and upset and leave you when you laugh at them..
Of course in WoW 5 of us corpse camped a level 60 (when we were 40's) so maybe I need a bolt gun too :P
An interesting article, obviously written to provoke a reaction, and the 6 pages of text has shown that it has done just that. Mind you any topic that has the characters 'pvp' in it generally attracts a huge amount of replys for some odd reason.
In my opinion one very easy way to get rid of the griefers is simply to offer no way of inspecting characters, period [abilities, armour and skill levels etc]. In that way players would not know who was weak and who was strong, yes they could make an educated guess by appearance but they would have to take the chance that the person isnt more skilled than they look making it much harder to find easy targets. [just like in real life, which besides law is one reason people don't react violently any time they feel like it is because they dont know the capability of the other person and there is a very real chance they will get a good beating themselves instead].
The road to hell is paved with griefers.
It`s a sad fact that if there are no rules then the strong will always prey on the weak, if a game has no provision in it`s design to prevent it then there will always be rampant PK bullies.
With no rules the only way to deal with them is to have high level players take them out and give them a good kicking, but then one becomes as bad as the other, vigilanties start out meaning well, but the cure can end up as bad as the disease
The wolf and sheep analagy is a good one, too many wolves = no sheep then the wolves starve and the game dies.
I'm quite sorry, I can't hear your reply, can you stop crying and sobbing for a moment so we can understand you? Seriously, if that is your best honest judgement, calling someone who loves hardcore pvp in an MMO and uses it well, a "child" or "victim of a bully IRL" that's pretty lame. I'm 25 years old, I've played video games since I was 5 or 6 (back in the days of Atari 2600/NES). So wait let me guess, you'll hit me up with "omg you're that old and act like a spoiled child roflmaomomoomgzzzzzzzzzz" give me a break.
YOU, sound like the guy who rolled a toon in an MMO, got him to a medium level then got ganked when you stepped foot outside a safe zone. Did you ever realize that maybe, just maybe, if you didn't stop to call us childish adults, and other such crap, we wouldn't humiliate you so badly? We'd just kill you and move on? I mean seriously, it's a game and look how worked up you are getting over it.
Oh and btw, since you trying to make this personal, you give a bad name to all of us Doctor Who fan's, I'm quite sure Eccleston would call you a pussy himself if he had the chance.
Most fun Ive ever had was taking my lv 60 rogue and put her in stealth mode, then have her follow my alt around, my alt would get ganked by real high level players of the opp side all the time, but my 60 would have so much fun killing them back, wasnt long before they woudlnt attack my alt, but run when they seen it lol, not knowing if my rogue was with her or not =)
PVP makes the games exciting, gives you other areas of game play other than just grinding .. only area that I would like to see fixed would be in players not being able to camp a dead player .. To be fair, it is a pvp server, Ive seen many players think that they can just do quest in pvp zones and think they should be left alone .. I dont agree to the camping, but if your getting ganked over and over in an area, go do a diff quest in a diff place for a while.
Interesting article Dan, it certainly drew a few gankers out of the woodwork, must be quite something to have an "editor" extolling the virtues of egoistical game play.
Or maybe it was just to light a few fuses, it certainly did that!! You know just by reading these forums how easy it is to start a war of words these days.... Guess what!! You succeeded!
The article was too inflammatory to create a discussion, but you already know that. Most players see the weaknesses of a game, we don't need telling how much fun it is to exploit them for selfish reasons.
Its really very sad that so many new players to MMORPGs see them as just consisting of collecting rat's tails or pvp. I would have thought that articles on this forum would at least have been enlightening, not endorsing something that ruins the game for so many!
And what is one of the best (if not THE best) mmo comics saying about PvP/PK ?
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip068.html
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip070.html
Well, we've had a fair share of replies (I started mine around reply 14 or so, then decided to sit back and see if what I had posted would be brought up by others on the site, and it was. My main point was this is more of a case study of a sociopath rather than a stimulating discussion on the elements of PvP), and I feel comfortable making a few comments now...
First off, the logic that killing defenseless players is more fun than collecting rat tails is conditionally false. The condition in this case is how engaging the gameplay is. If the gameplay is fun, then it follows that gathering anything would be fun, as well. I have played games that were purely fun just to play, and some of them were indeed MMOGs. Any game that doesn't succeed in creating engaging gameplay is a failure, and allowing griefing is simply a way of concealing that fact, not to mention it is detrimental to human development (why exactly does a tool need to be given a playground to perfect BEING a tool?).
Secondly, there is really no reason not to implement some sort of penalty for griefing. If someone is skewed enough to get a thrill from ganking and corpse camping alone, then something should be done to deter it. We don't tolerate bullying in real life if we are responsible people, and we shouldn't tolerate it in games. This point comes through fairly clearly in the article. Unless a meaningful penalty for behaving badly is implemented, a player has two choices, accept it, or look elsewhere for their entertainment. For any company, not paying their monthly fee is like a collective kick to the balls of any griefer who plays the game and the company itself.
Finally, as some others have stated, I see no reason why an editor who submits caustic and insulting articles like this is allowed to represent a site as otherwise wonderful as MMORPG.com. I am sure that just by PMing various members of your site that write well, you could replace Dan quite easily with someone who could come up with interesting, thought provoking articles that promote great discussions that will fuel new innovations in the industry.
A big thanks to the folks who suggested I needed some psychological counseling since I recently checked myself into McLean Hospital to get some help with my narcissism and my complusive killing disorder. Things were going great until me and my new friend Peter (He was in for sexual misconduct so I'm guessing he was a high level Priest) saw this n00b mage kid with some nice gear we wanted. We ganked him but the GMs in white clothes caught us and hit me with some kind of root spell that looked like a funny vest.
Some crazy carebear tried to mezz me with needle but I grabbed it and stabbed her with the special attack I'd been saving up the whole time. Now I have to dictate my posts and articles to the floating typewriter that visits me in my padded cell...Gratz guys!
I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!
Yet, instead of that, all you people whine to the the devs and beg, implore, and even petition them to make your world a safer, easier, more consistent and predictable funpark without any 'real' trials or obstacles. It's the same kind of posts I see where class X is begging the devs to nerf class Y because they lost multiple times.
Ultimately, this whole line of thinking of getting the devs to make this perfect little world, where all classes are the same, where everything goes good all the time, is just going to lead to more and more never-ending everquests. The dynamic unpredictable SUSPENSEFULL environment just fades away.
Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?
WTF is wrong with you people who think its just fine and dandy to prey on weaker people. Do you even realize the impact you have on games, not only do you piss people right off (which im very sure is the response you want) but you destory the point of the game, which is to have fun. In normal life would you like someone richer than you always outbidding you on stuff you want not because he needs it just because he can and wants to make your life a misery. And if you think there is nothing wrong with humiliating an opponent after you defeat them, then why do all sport coaches teach there players not to be PRICKS after they beat another side.
And on the other side of the coin...
All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.
NatoB posted;
All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.
Doesn't this mean you let the gankers win? Pvp servers could be fun, they add an edge to the game, plus guilds bond more, friends help each other out, planned raids could be fought, etc. Why should a few selfish players spoil this? Do they not have the skill to fight their own levels?
I think all people are asking for is a penalty for unfair play. That seems such an easy solution and of course gankers can still gank, if they dare!!!
"We were pking in pong."
Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice. That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength. But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power. By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.
(and please...no need to throw in the arguments about getting your friends/guildmates/realmmates to come help you... its weak to have to beg for help solviing your problems)
Here's an idea. How about we restrict combat to within a few levels, like most games try to set up. For those people who gank lowbies for no benefit, how about the Dev's create a button that the lowbie can press that automatically kills the griefer... and takes his or her loot. That sure would cut back down on lowbie killing.... and seems very fair to me.
I won't buy the Role-playing arguement, most people are not really roleplaying, not matter what they think or say. The jerk behavior is a very real reflection on their real life personna. Sure, they may not act on these impulses in RL, because there are consequences they will face. Take away the consequences, like in a game world, and their true nature comes out.
The reason it's not working now is because the DEVS have not given us the MEANS to enforce the justice desired.
There's really only two options here:
1. You can call upon the gods (the devs) to change the nature of the universe (the virtual world) in such a way that evil is punished by them.
2. You call upon the gods (the devs) to give you the means to setup your own morality in your own universe.
I clearly choose option-2. More immersion. More interesting. More fun (because it's more complex, ongoing, and entertaining). Who wants a god to do something when you can do it yourself?
the business of making games is just that: a business. the people behind the scenes decide, yes or no, that they are going to include PvP or not, include restrictions or not, etc etc. whilst people argue that open-pvp is often to the demise of the game (particularly more so in north america) that is not a factual statement. eve online is a thriveing example of the shining success a game can have when it includes a properly executed pvp system with all the inherent checks and balances that are necessary. or, take darktide on asherons call. that server has been around for what, seven years ? it is pure open pvp, anyone, anytime....yet, darktide still has an excellent community. so, the point of all this is to say that open-pvp can work and can definitely stimulate the community in more ways then one by adding another dimension to it. so to answer the OP, i would say yes, it is the developers fault for not having the forsight to say "well, this element of our business, a pvp system without the proper checks, is flawed and we need to code this and this to fix it" but at the exact same time, there is flat-out no excuse for griefing and the people who engage in such behaviour should be pointed out and ostracized by the larger gaming population as a whole. anyways, pvp rocks and griefers can suck it.
The developers hoped the players would develop a community and believed that to do this, they should have as much freedom as possible in terms of how they relate to each other. He writes: "Can an online community ever truly flower if it always has to turn to Dad to deal with problems?" (check out his website http://www.raphkoster.com)
They also hoped killers would come to understand that they were part of a community, ie people interacting with people rather than just playing a game. Which didn't mean they wouldn't kill at all, but they would behave in a way which was beneficial to the game rather than driving people away.
How exactly Koster thought that would happen I am not sure, but I suspect it meant killers would behave exactly not like Dan Fotier:)
This didn't work out quite as they hoped, which is why so few games have followed the original UO model since - they have switches, or large non PvP zones (not just the safe cities), which are really just different types of switch.
If we learned anything from Ultima Online's Felucca exodus is that carebears do *not* realise they they need people who pick on those less weaker and less able to defend themselves and humiliate them afterwards. It's not just Felucca - I remember playing UO when EQ was first announced, and there were two things that excited people and caused many to leave UO. One was the shiny 3d graphics and the second was the promise of no PKs!
You can try to argue that they were wrong and actually they do gain from being humiliated (personally I have never met anyone who benefitted from being humiliated - nothing wrong with losing but who actually benefits from humiliation?) However I don't think there's any evidence to suggest people *realised* they needed to be humiliated, and certainly no evidence is suggested in this article.
I'll make a prediction - most games in the future will do what most games do now, which is either to have no PvP, to have switches/non PvP zones or simply to divert the PvP to one or two servers out of the many they run. The reason they do this is, as the article rightly says, that if you allow people to behave in the way Mr Fotier says he behaves, they will indeed do it. Dad has learned he just can't trust us after all.
i was not always like this i at one point loved to play mmog's to have fun grinding and doing the PVE thing and absolutely hated games that allowed pking and i played games where pking was limited to certain areas and i played games that were pk anywhere anytime and although i didnt like pking i liked the game after awhile of being griefed i finally said enoughs enough and quit playing the game but i figured why should i quit playing something i enjoy
so i turned the tables on those who would grief me and hunted down their newbs and friends and slaughter them and in doing so i found untold joy in it and it went from the players that griefed me to me being the one doing the griefing to anyone i could find and it didnt have to be someone lower than me just the other day i was griefing a lvl 60 in WoW with my lvl 39 simply because he/she didnt know what they were doing and you know what i still enjoy doing it its like the old saying "if you cant beat them join them" thats the risk you have to accept if you r going to play on a pvp server or game and WoW has made it so if the other player is 10 lvls or more lower than u then u dont get any honor but u know what it doesnt stop me i still enjoy the fact that i can be "someone else" in the game than i am in RL thats the point of mmog's the ability to be or do someone or something that u cant do in RL take that away and theres no point in playing this is just my opinion and im sure i will be flamed for it but u have to take the good with the bad so let the flaming begin just remember it wont stop me from doing what i get my kicks from
I found this article pretty interesting Dan, and it definitely evoked some emotions from the readers. Well done!
The only point I'd like to discuss is in regards to what several posters mentioned earlier. I do believe you should be able to participate in PvP freely and openly in whichever manner you choose. However, I don't believe that just because you can that you neccesarily should.
You can hack whichever MMORPG you are playing at the time, but that doesn't mean you should. You can run a botting application while you're afk from the game to make money, but it doesn't mean that you should. You can buy in-game currency from websites like IGE, effectively taking the easy way out of earning your own in-game money, but that doesn't mean that you should. Lastly, you can PK and corpseguard that player 30 levels lower than you, but it doesn't mean that you should
What I'm trying to say is that developers only have so much foresight when they release their products. It is my personal opinion that their biggest flaw in today's market is that they believe their consumers and players may have even the most fundamental core of morals and decency built into their persona, and that it's their HOPE that people won't use exploits, won't purposely grief, and won't look for ways to ruin other people's gaming experiences. This is a mistake; players today seem to have little to no regard for the feelings or well-being of their fellow players. Let's be honest here; compare the number of griefers in today's world with the number of griefers in the games say...5 years ago. I would certainly say there's a significant increase in the number, in my personal experience. I just don't think the devs have paid any attention to that rise in aggressive and malicious play-styles of their consumers.
Finally, I also must agree with what was mentioned at one point earlier in the thread. That is definitely the mindset of hackers, cheaters, and botters in-game, and rapists, killers, and thieves in real life. I don't believe it's wise to abuse privileges, because I know I will personally lament the day when game developers are merciless, and rule their games and T.O.S.' with an iron fist.
Wow, exactly my thoughts. I think its sad how many people fail to see the point he tried to make and even the point he didnt make and wanted us to think a BIT about it.
BUT, its a subject that is built on some fundamental feelings, feelings that people are quick to respond to and then lose their reasoning (no wonder so many replies are just stupid, no offence).
Its like when you play and RPG and design one of those uber plots of doom(tm) and then you keep thinking "WTF ITS SO OBVIOUS, why cant the players figure it out !!!" or "Its not that obvious, but I gave you the tools to figure it out !"
Good article
Lets all go mug an old lady in the street, after all she is easy prey and it might be fun.......................But no, there is a penalty!
Ok, you might be playing at being a griefer only because it's a game.............................But what about the real person out there, do you really want to spoil some ones game enough so that they leave? Forget the "Carebear" bit, ganking is unpleasant for many.
"It's a pvp server and anything goes!" Surely you can't be so daft as to not realise, indiscriminate griefing will only ruin pvp servers in the end. You'll all end up on a penal colony, running around ganking each other like lunatics! There's a big difference between pvp and ganking. Pvp is fun.
Dan's gabfest was created to cause discussion? I really don't think so! Even after trying to read between the lines. Every griefer can now quote from Dan's article, after all it's now was ok to go beat up players in the training grounds. MMORPGS are already rapidly losing their identity and it can't help when an editor make crass statements like " Speaking of victims, there is special relationship between the PKer and Carebear that transcends love and hate." Try to convince people who leave pvp servers in disgust of this. Dan you remind me of a bored "WoW" player.
My biggest annoyance with this article is, at this moment in time when so many MMORPGs are trying to cater to the masses, we really don't need an editor to encourage four year old behaviour (with or without too much sugar) otherwise we might just end up getting four year old games! We do need them to encourage authentic pvp.
I know this is what is meant to happen, but, it isnt going to happen, do you htink these big game studios care if one of us quit because of these people. They dont, they lose 1 player and gain 50. What i am trying to say is if you really really hate this happening to you stay away from the problem. I hate it to but i really dont care, i use the same tactic i have always used when it comes to idiots like gankers, ignore the dweeblets. I enjoy my PvP as much as the next guy.
If you guys want a good game to go play PvP, where skill is tested and not gear and level. I reccomend you play Guild Wars. And on the plus side the developers of this game made sure that no ganking can happen :D
Cymdai has finally advanced this discussion to where carebears and PvP'ers can together impact the direction of MMOs.
I think that in these game company boardrooms, every minutae of PvP and PvE is discussed. I don't believe that anything is put into a game intentionally without complete discussion of the ramifications of that particular feature. They think that our sense of morals will translate into in-game behavior, and I think that is true.
With that said, I think that the developers and designers are working with a flawed interpretation of the moral status of its players. I think they're using the moral compass of the aging Generation-X'ers to develop their PvP systems. While this ideal might have worked in 2000, they are not factoring in 6 years of jaded experiences by the long-time players, nor the declination of moral values and overall immaturity of Gen-Y'ers and Gen-Next'ers.
Like it or not, developers are designing(or not designing) PvP ethics and enforcement systems based on an antiquated version of perceived morality code. They need to (sadly) abandon the ideal of player-enforced PvP ethics and develop their PvP systems to eliminate the griefers from the legitimate PvP'ers.
I'm not going to pretend that I have an easy solution to this. It's sad that I've come to a point that I'm willing to give up my dream of honorable PvP in favor of rules that eliminate the ganker playstyle.
I do think that develpers can add PvP elements that foster honorable PvP, such as arena tournaments that include games like 1v.1, 2 v.2 and last man standing battle royales that are moderated by admins. Victors are given a special item only attainable in the arena such as a championship belt that serve as visual prestige and provide a useful general ability. Breaking or exploiting the rules in this environment could be virtually eliminated just by the nature of the event.
My rule is this: You join a PVP game/server, prepare to be slaughtered. There shouldn't be any mercy for you if you join something with a ruleset like this. Thats why there are PVE servers (hopefully). Stop whining, it's your choice to play.
Yes there are dicks, but thats just the way things are.
This guy sounds like an asshole, but I agree with him. Good article.