The Effects of World PvP in WoW
Joe Iuliani and Garrett Fuller debate PvP and Ganking
Editorial By Joe Iuliani on September 30, 2006
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Debate: The Effects of World PVP in World of Warcraft Joe Iuliani and Garrett Fuller debate Joe Iuliani: I guess I should start off my mentioning I'm thirty-five, have a full time job and love to game. Maybe I'm still new to MMORPGs, but I was always told that PvP stands for Player versus Player. I think I may be getting too hung up on the "versus" part. Since I really don't understand how a person, and more often these days, a group of people ganging up on a person trying to just play a game works out. I think that world PVP takes away from individuals who want to just farm for materials (farming will get its own rant) or do something zany like just make it into a damn zone.
Before anybody really gets into why I'm on a PvP server and not a PvE server, its simple why would I want to limit my options. Griefing players is not "versus." Waiting until a player is down to 10% of their life isn't “versus.” Taking an hour just to get into a dungeon because gankers are waiting outside isn't “versus.” All these world PvP issues take away from the limited amount of time some players have. Not that this has anything to do with gnome warriors? But what's up that?Garrett Fuller: I must confess to being a Ganking, Fragging, Player Killing type of person in any MMO I play. I really haven’t thought about why, it’s just that every time I see an Alliance player in WoW, I go after them no matter the level. The main reason I think it happens is because the same thing is done to us. I have been farming plenty of times for materials and had a group of Allies come along and make game play very difficult. It certainly is an “us against them” scenario. The thing about open world PvP in areas where characters still need to level and complete quests is that players can certainly have a rough time. In DAOC there were only a few quests that forced you to go to the PvP zones to complete your mission. I do believe that players should have a safe place to level their characters separate from the rest of the killers out there. Still, the way WoW was constructed gives us our battlefield. There is little we can do to stop the griefing other than simply become griefers ourselves. As for Gnome Warriors…or Gnome anything for that matter, I definitely try to kill them every chance I get!Joe Iuliani: I do like the versus idea, but the entire world stage isn’t the place for it. DAOC had the right idea in my opinion it combined the best elements of PVP and PVE. When you were ready to fight other players, you psyched yourself up for it. You dug in and got ready for a long haul of beating down the opposition. You were single minded on PvPing other factions. It says nothing of a player’s skill when you jump somebody who is quietly farming. There you are saying, “Oh look, dreamfoil” and two seconds later you are dead when a group of Allies or Horde come rushing by. Questing into enemy territory can be fun, but when it is nothing more than a time killing obstacle it becomes a problem. The statement of becoming “griefers ourselves” perpetuates the ganking cycle. You kill them, they kill us and nobody really moves ahead. The only way to stop griefers is to instill some penalties against the players. The abilities of a player grows exponentially with leveling. There is no way that killing a character ten levels or more beneath should be considered anything near a reasonable fight. Not receiving credit for a griefing kill is hardly a deterrent. If gnomes can be warriors, Tauren should be rouges. I know this is fantasy, but honestly, a gnome charging a Tauren should result in his death.Garrett Fuller: The thing about putting penalties into place does make some sense if it can be done correctly. I think Blizzard dropped the ball on putting in some kind of penalty for players who grief. It remains part of WoW just as it does in the rest of the MMO world. Because the game is in a virtual world it gives people the chance to be bullies and crush other players. Now I am all for the mantra of “Crush your enemies,” but really what can they do? The only idea I can think of is to write code that prohibits the players fighting anything 10 levels below them. There is always the argument that players should play on a PvE server if that is the case. I just think that Blizzard did not put enough thought into how to make PvP servers work for the players. Instancing battlegrounds does break things up a little, but the real war comes into play when roaming in contested zones. Some of the most fun fights I’ve had in PvP have been while farming yetis in Winterspring. I guess my point is until something is done to curb griefing, it will continue, whether we want it to or not.Joe Iuliani: The only real deterrent is some kind of penalty. The only DK points assigned are when you kill a computer generated MOB. I can’t imagine the type of work that goes into successfully programming this type of game, but I would bet parts of my anatomy that there is a person sitting behind all those town folk who live in Ashenvale. Killing PVE targets can be assigned a penalty but allowing paying customers to be frustrated and having their time wasted is OK? There are plenty of other time sinks involved with WOW; I mean who doesn’t love grinding for faction or the joy farming for larval acid. On a tangent….ENOUGH WTH THE PLAUGEHOUND RUNTS, sorry needed to vent that. Having time wasted by griefing is just not something that should be endured. How do you folks out there feel about griefing and open PVP? **any pro-gnome propaganda will be met with open hostility** |
I think this was a carebear versus carebear debate.
The game is called World of WARcraft. War is nasty, war is unfair. I love playing on PVP servers that are completely open. I love being ganked and ganking. WOW is such a fast game to level in, getting ganked now and then just adds to the game. Its war guys... if you are invading a country you don' stop and leave the farmers alone that are in a territory you are trying to take over. Penalties are for carebears and little kids who cry when their Gnome dies and who should stop playing on PVP servers and go back to PVE.
Next time you guys set up a debate like this, get a carebear and a true PVP player who appreciates all that it adds to games such as EVE and Lineage 2.
I'm kind of in the same boat as the writer of this piece. I enjoy pvp, but I'm a 47 year old gamer with a career and except for weekends, I usually come home exhausted and just wanting to log into game to do a bit of questing before turning in for the night instead of staring numbly at the t.v. like most other people my age. Of course, weekend PVP is a different story for me. I'm up for that.
The griefing got to be too much and I left WoW for several months because of it. I tried the carebear servers but the lack of pvp excitement got a tad boring. I like the PVP, but you get people corpse camping you, that's what bothers me, the corpse camping. Sitting on my corpse and a group of bullies in gank squads repeatedly killing you over and over just to be jerks, people use this game just to be jerks.
Kill me and move on. Or I kill you, I move on. There should be a deterent to corpse camping.
Despite the game being World of WARcraft there are pve servers, showing that not everyone agrees that 100% all the time pvp is A Good Thing.
Enough of that though...
From what a friend tells me (she still plays WoW I don't) is that on her pve server the "world pvp" usually is about 7 or 8 people total fighting over a tower or two. No big clashes, no mass guild vs guild, nothing. She does see some ganking by Strath, person is flagged after grabbing a tower their Strath group is ready he heads there and *BAM* wasted by the other factions group standing there.
Like many of the "world events" Blizzard comes up with they have very little impact on the world. When I did play the AQ War was going on, logon now and tell me if you see any evidence of this supposed war going on. Oh btw, the Scourge is invading too, lemme know if you see them actually invading anything.
The carebear is quite frankly a stupid immature comment. If a game isn't total gank or be ganked anywhere and I can loot all your stuff bury the body and make you cancel the account its CAREBEAR!!
I've said it before, PvP in mmorpgs is a pointless affair as long as levels exist.
You are simply pitting your "more time spent stats" against "less time spent stats" so griefing people is just a pathetic expression of your own desire for power.
It's cheap, boring, and stops the such games from have mass appeal.
Sorry couldn't hold it, hehe. Joke appart i alway played on pvp server on wow also, and i fail to see how world pvp is killing the fun, i would even say that its not happening enough (at least on the 3 servers i played), the part i admit is a lvl 60 ganking in low level zone is lame but such is the price of the freedom of pvp server.
Pvp server used to be nasty and fun back in the day before honor system and crap battleground, now its dead and shouldn't really have any impact except in few well know spot and zones that you can avoid on your way to the lvl 60. for raid its simple move all at once, learn to work with your teamate and guild.
If you can't survive wow pvp don't bother with any other pvp game around because wow while being fun is really soft.
Hehe,
I don't understand the OP point, but I will admit, I don't like PvP, period.
Personnally I play on PvE grounds and when I am enforced to enter a PvP area (such as Warbug for nukes or Bloody for shivans, both in CoV), I usually try to ignore all PvPers. CoX are build in a way that I was lucky enough to get a "Godmode" for a short time(usually 3 minutes or so). You know, when you hit "Unstoppable/Power Surge" (yeah I have 2 such brutes) or personnall force field (a MM), render you virtually immune to PvP if you don't engage in battle yourself (following you is already hard, following you in godmode is nearly impossible). I don't know why, but I see 2 scrappers and 1 blaster trying to gank me, I was running around, ignoring them, complete my mission and jet off, never retaliate to their attack and they barely where able to score minimal hits on me. Making me completing my nukes fairly safely despite been attacked by 3 gankers. I usually go wait INSIDE the hospital for my power to refresh before I continue a new step in my PvE goal, just to make sure I can walk outside of PvP freely.
I also find very useful to use Broadcast and /friends and say something such as: "Care Bear currently been ganked in Warbug, looking for kinds heroes or villains willing to deal with *insert ganker name*". Weither it is the gankers who where previously unable to hurt me that give up or if someone come and hunt them, I have no idea and I am grateful to walk away freely.
I never engage anyone in PvP, unless I am done with my PvE mishs and I am hunting back some gankers. I always leave anyone I never saw alone until they attack me. Most of my PvP battles actually occur as "duels", someone saw me doing my PvE mishs, "escort me" and once I am done with my PvE goals, we duel. With these players I don't run away, they where kind enough, they will get their victory. Someone who attack me even when I am available for PvP, if we didn't talk, I will run away rather than take a death, only with peoples that take time to talk and been nice do I make a stand, accepting the death.
PVP is what it is, an anything goes environment. it's not that f&*Cking hard to level up on a PVP server. all it takes is some social skills to develop friendship within your own faction. I am guessing that is lacking in most WoW players.
I love PVP and PVE but i want to be able to do both without mixing them.
The Special forces feature SWG has where u can chose what u want to do when it suits is a great option for me.
All your issues are easily overcome if you play on a PVE server.
I have played WoW off and on, since beta. Its a great game, and it can be frustrating in pvp sometimes, BUT, that is what your guild is for. If you get "corpse camped" or "griefed" you bring the posse in to take care of the situation...Normally, this is where some of the best world pvp happens.
You say "I like the thrill of pvp, but hate the griefing" sounds more like you dont like to lose.
As I said, griefing can be annoying, but when it happens you have options:
Again, easily solved if you are on a PVE server, simply dont flag...then you can sit there and dance and swap spit with your enemy.
This comes from a mid-30s guy, that hails from the "uber nerdy" world of pen-and-paper roleplaying, and I like pvp. And yes, I will even roleplay while playing WoW (however, for the most part I have given up on that pipe dream.)
I was not quite sure where the argument was going, exactly, as it touched a bit on player mentality, and then on gameplay mechanics, and a bit on how they mesh. I find the PvP debate revolves more around what sort of people it inspires rather than how useful it is to the game, in general. I can not abide any system that encourages people to sink to the lowest common denominator. In forums, for instance, anything that encourages lashing out at others personally rather than reasonably and respectfully communicating makes us worse people (which includes lack of monitoring as well as open support of such behaviors).
In PvP, any mechanic that encourages the equivalent actions (lowbie slaughtering, corpse sitting, dungeon entrance farming, etc.) does more than just ruin the game for those who fall prey to such things, it encourages them to duplicate these activities. I have no idea if Garrett is a person who always got off on flexing his cybermuscles against those too weak to fight back, or if being such a person himself and being a victim of such things turned him into one, but really, the point is moot. Whether you start off being a jerk or grow into one, you still ARE one, and should be dealt with accordingly. A MMOG has just as much social responsibility to ensure this happens as any other. Sure, people will argue that atrocities happen all the time in real life, so why should a virtual world be any different? The counter to this is that just because certain things DO exist doesn't mean they SHOULD exist. I would hope that all people, ESPECIALLY those who have been victims, would want to do what they could to ensure others don't needlessly suffer, rather than just "join the crowd" of people who perpetuate misery, in a game or in real life. Carebears SHOULD play on PvE servers, and those who enjoy combatting others SHOULD crave a true challenge, rather than some empty victory that does nothing more than interfere with whatever enjoyment a defenseless person might be having. If we don't start taking steps to ensure that we are elevating others and ourselves through REAL PvP challenges, we shouldn't be surprised if everything around us degrades as a consequence.
All gnomes should be killed on sight.
The problem with WoW is that if you don't have 4-5 hrs. to sit and raid you don't get the sweet gear and this caters to people who have little or no lives and mostly limited social skills. I think this will eventually kill WoW as these people can only sponge off their parents for so long and the people who can afford the monthly fees will tire of getting beaten by the basement dwellers who have no PvP skill but superior gear. I am always on the lookout for a game that is as fun but more fair to those of us who don't want to sit for 4-5 hours at a time. I have and still do play Eve, I prefer Fantasy to space.
My 2 copper, I'm off to see Hank 3 and do some stage diving.
PvP is just that. If you're against it, you do have a PvE option. That being said, yes, corpse camping or killing somebody 10 level bellow isn't fair (although I've seen 44 mage kill 60 warriors for example, that's 16 levels above). From my experience everybody hates such people and it's not hard to find help to deal with them.
Personally I think Blizzard could have done more to help this situation, but it's not that bad or desperate. Corpse camping should be allowed, but there should be something to help the weak side. In a way there is. You can always try to rez at the cemetery (unless that's where you get ganked). You can log and come back 10-15 minutes later. Usually person is gone by then. Many of the mechanics could ruin the game or backfire in other situations. If you want to PvP only when you're ready, play on PvE and PvP on battlegrounds.
More could be done, such as bounty system, or penalize dishonest killers by marking them visually, so that everybody can see, here's a guy who camps corpses and kills people 10 levels bellow, or allow guy who got ganked to track the killer for a little bit. Again, from my experience this isn't much of a problem. Yeah, sometimes it would waste time. I spend much more time fighting fair PvP fights then suffering from ganking. Most people adopted to the existing system and live just fine.
I believe that world PvP in WoW could be much more engaging and meaningful (yes, even the 'ganking') if all contested areas were actually contested for a REASON. What was done in the Plaguelands is exactly the kind of thing that makes PvP meaningful and not just a free-for-all gankfest.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing more exhilerating than being outnumbered and yet somehow surviving (or dying but taking 'em down with you). Ganking is not a problem when there is a CONTEXT in which to look over your shoulder. Questing in an area where you know the enemy is actually MOTIVATED to find and kill you becomes a much more visceral experience or seeking the enemy out in piece of territory you're trying to secure is a hunt with a purpose.
Control of resources, control of questing areas, etc. (ala DAoC's realm control over the big central dungeon) makes open, self-governed PvPing/policing worthwhile and MEANINGFUL. Currently, the way WoW has it set up, the killing is mindless (still fun) but mindless and, quite frankly, without a lasting sense of reward.
CONTEXT is what makes anything meaningful. Without contextual PURPOSE, we are merely reducing any activity to a mechanical excercise of repetition.
my two cents anyhow.
flame on.
As long its the gankers that the game companies is listening to when putting pvp into a mmo game there is no end to ganking a lowlvl char except to piss someone off.
I can understand it on a pvprp server but not on a pure pvp server.
Of course players themself can help lvl the playing field but you dont always have that kind of possiblities because you are playing in hours others don´t play or other obstacles.
How PvP SHOULD WORK.
PvP should be decided by the world as far as how and when it can occur.It should all be structured.It should be plentiful and meaningful to those partaking.
PvP should be asigned as missions by the factions in the world.
IE-PvP missions could/ would be attainable thru the local military which would give out PvP missions against those NOT of its faction.
These could be missions assigned in an open war with another faction, or ones meant as covert actions against a faction simply not liked.
PvP factions should include criminal organizations, law enforcement organizations,military organizations,trade organizations,politcal organizations, etc....
PvP missions should be schedulable.I should be able to arrange for a PvP mission from a faction PvP mission giver for a certain date and time (both realife and ingame).
PvP missions should begiven on an opposing basis.This means when 10 people ask for a PvP mission from a military faction PvP mission giver of the realm from King Johns realm,a counter mission should become available at military faction pvp mission givers who oppose King Johns realm.
PvP faction mission givers should now of and not award missions to those who have a large standing with an opposing faction.So if you really lay into King Johns faction by doing mission that are counter/opposing that realms,you wont be given missions by King johns realm UNLESS certain conditions apply.
PvP faction rewards will depend on your standing with the faction giving the mission and the assumed(by the giver) difficulty of the mission.
All rewards that can be gotten thru any other play style,will be possible to be get thru PvP missions.
WoW's a good example of a game that'd be totally useless without it's PvP. I enjoy the game a lot. I enjoy the art work, the action portion of the game play, and I've always been a Warcraft fan. But yeah the world is huge but everything is so liner and static. So PvP helps me to feel anticipation while rolling through a zone. The very feel of a contested zone can change according to who is or isn't around.
PvP should be.. Open everywhere and if you can't roll with that, go to a server where you don't have to PvP unless you choose to BG. Battlegrounds and arenas and what not are made for folks who 'dabble' in PvP and want to create these totally useless and extremely exploitable rule sets of what they think would work.
What works? Open PvP like in Shadowbane. Pick n' choose PvP like WoW's battlegrounds or even City of Whatever's side zones with caps. Also enjoyable, but I myself like being hunted / doing some hunting while mindlessly advancing along.
Here's my toss toward the 'DEBATE' tho'. Why I wish I were the guy defending open PvP instead of the tart who did... "I chose to be on a pvp server because I don't want to limit my options. BUT HERE'S WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE!" Point case, if you don't like to PvP then don't. Stop worrying about us who do and act all concern about our time wasted. Fact of the matter is we're paying to play a game. We're not advancing in status or social standing by leveling to 50 or 60 faster than everyone else. You play to have fun, and I have fun even if I'm the lone tauren warrior standing in Ashenvale when suddenly 12 mounted Alliance half wits jump me after passing me. Hey, I fight. I stomp, I yell, I try to win despite me missing totally.
But I agree with another person's point as well. Stat / weapon / armor central advancement will always make for unfair PvPing in MMOs. Until there's a skill based system with a few custom tweaks here and there to make combat interesting. It's what you got. Deal with it.
Ok first off let me state that I dont play WoW ( I acully call it heracy when I hear about it lol) but from what I have seen on this topic here I have a PvP system that might be liked by many of you here.
First off there is no PvP or PvE severs, they are combined like in SWG and EVE.
next there is no asking to duel as in SWG you just pick a target and fight. be it another player or a NPC.
For the carbears ( and I admit I'm one of them ;) ) there is a NPC "poilce" faction that if a player picks on someone in certain areas the "police" will arive to teach the "bad" player a lesson. but in many areas there IS NO "POLICE". So you have to be careful on were you go.
Next "death" has meaning. if you "die" you loes everything. you can clone and you dont lose your skills but all your gear is GONE. So be careful on were you go and if you fight someone you better be able to accept that you could lose.
There is no way to know what the other player can do in combat untill you fight them. there is no template or "flavor of the month" to be "uber" or "L33t" is impossible. There will ALWAYS be the chance that some newcomer that can come along and out think you or pull off a stunt that leaves you flatfooted.
This is the PvP system used by CCP in EVE Online and I would love to see it implimented in other MMOs. I truely beleve it would change how people play. I got tired of PvP in SWG because of the FOTM thing and sick of it after NGE because of the predictability of it.
As for WoW, I have seen player made videos and read variouse forum debates ( both here and elsewere) to see that it has more depth then some MMOs but it is still very simple, and the lack of impact is glareing. Unlike in EVE were the players CONTROL most of the gameing world and in SWG were for a while players dictated which cities were Imperial or Reble, except for a couple of cities on each planet the pwere perment.
But flame me or agree with me, I doubt that I will really get into a game that does not AT LEAST have the depth that EVE has, dont get me wrong I hope that other MMOs ( even WoW) add such depth to their games, but such a leap has been shown to be beyond many DEVs and company exsecutives.
PVP debate? that was definately a weak debate.
While I am pro pvp I fully understand the need for pve in todays market with the pve server clearly showing more people it would be stupid for any MMO maker to not set it up the way most of them do with both types of servers.With WOW and 7million subscribers you would think they could afford to put some code in to stop the 10 level below you ganking though. There will never be anything you can do about when a gang ganks you, its just not possible to stop it.
The gang type ganking has been going on since the first MMO to introduce pvp. (m59) Then of coarse UO unfolded and the truely massive pvp ganking was shown. Then pops out EQ the answer to all carebares dreams and the market realised there were truely more carebears than pks. EQ also had the best graphics which did not hurt its desire any.It goes on from there into Daoc which truely answered alot of the players problems as far as pvp and pve mix were concerned and I dont think any games to date have answered that call as well as Mythic did.
I think a good rule of thumb here is if you have a crappy pc dont pvp. But until you get out there and really get into pvp and have that first great one on one battle and win or loose you know it was a good fight you cant knock pvp. Its got a rush like nothing else in the gaming world and its you againt another person not some AI you know you can outthink.
I think that when you want to adhere to a "strict" definition of Player vs. Player, it does imply some level of competitive fairness.
To many people who developed a taste for PvP in early games such as Ultima Online or playing the Darktide server on Asheron's Call, "fair" was a pretty foreign concept...it just didn't exist. That was life, and you lived (or died) whether you liked it or not.
My personal experience playing AC DT I found that after getting killed over and over as a newbie, I didn't whine and complain about the fairness. I simply worked my way up the ladder until I could at least be competitive to higher level characters. I found being weak and vulnerable at low levels motivated me to become stronger and better at higher levels. Really motivated me. It motivated everyone I played with and against on that server. Once I was there, it was also gratifying to know that I could choose how I treated others. That I had the power to protect and help friends, to kill or gank enemies that I was stronger than or be an honourable player.
Once you code in equality or even create ethical restrictions into a game, I think that's unfair...unfair to the people who have worked hard to become stronger. It eliminates your ability to choose how you want to be known. I am not suggesting that all games should follow that PvP model; it is more of a Player Killer game than Player vs Player. However once you make games too soft you lose some of the appeal of being powerful.
If there were no petty little, short stroking jerks that get their jollies from beating up people weaker than them, virtually or otherwise then the world would be a better place.
I like PvP and the excitement of squaring off against another player as compared to the drudgery of fighting endless computer controlled mobs that all react in a predictable pattern of behaviour. Every player is different and engaging other players in an even contest is far more exciting than fighting something you know how to defeat every time.
What I object to is getting ambushed and killed in a single blow by a rogue who is more than twice your level, festooned with the best gear that money, or hundreds of hours of raiding can get you. Or when you're trying to escort the defias traitor to the deadmines entrance so you can reach the next part of the Van Cleef chain and a party of level 60 horde characters have taken it upon themselves to spend their entire evening ensuring that nobody can complete this level 18 quest. Or in Lineage 2 when you first step out of the noob town into the open PvP environment and being killed by a single spell from a black clad dark-elf and afraid to step foot out of town because he's still waiting outside for noobs to do just that!
The list of bad experiences I have had with PvP bullies in MMO's is endless and runs the gamut of games, UO, Lineage 1 and 2, SWG, EVE, WoW, Anarchy Online and Neocron 2. Sure I like PvP but I can do without the small minded JERKS that seem to gain pleasure from preventing other players from enjoying the game! The problem lies not with PvP but with a percentage of the players who revel in the frustration of others.
QFE
WoW has never been seen as a pvp game. There is no reason to even bother pvping in WoW beyond griefing people or to say I did the grind.
The 'gear' you get is worst then what you get from PvE raiding and the PvE raiders prepared to actually raid (ie carebears by any other game standards) can 'win' at pvp all they want.
At any rate to the OP. Sounds like every other carebear whine I've heard. You got ganked on a PvP server. What did you expect? Your rant will not change the fact assholes are everywhere and they'll gank while they're permitted to. You want actual pvp you'll need to go find another game...
WoW = Mac Donalds of the MMO Industry. All hype no nutrition. And in the future the MMO industry and gamers will pay for it by receiving WoW educated gamers into the market. I altready have friends ask me "But what is the end game?" in relation to games where the idea is to simply have fun. At any rate hopefully when ViVendi gets their asses sued off in Europe they'll need to find a buyer for WoW. If when/that happens SOE should be close by with a bank cheque...then we can get "The Vision" TM involved :D
The problem in WoW is not PvP, but game mechanics which allow griefing and other uneven battles. The design issues which create a bad PvP environment in WoW include:
1) Having fixed location quests which are known and can be camped. This makes it fairly easy to find someone to gank. To not do quests means leveling slowly, so the game basically creates this environment.
2) Having a "con" system. Knowing how powerful the enemy is is key to ganking, unless you just like to attack anything which moves. With knowledge of how powerful others are, it's easy to assess the situation and decide whether to avoid or gank a group or individual. This is a game design feature which gives the cautious assailant all the advantage he could want.
3) PvP vs someone with only 10% health left isn't griefing. It's taking advantage of a poorly prepared enemy. He should not have a) been out there soloing in a pvp area, and b) running around with so low of health. Granted, it's not easy to detect when enemies are around, and the camper need only wait until his target aggros a mob to gain the advantage. There are a lot of things creating this situation, and going solo is certainly not the only one. Again, it falls on game design creating the situation which gives the hidden attacker the advantage.
4) There's no way to create a "safe zone." It's pretty easy to travel in WoW and to communicate to anyone. This makes for an environment where one side ganks, then the ganked call in the level 60's (or whoever they can get) and they reverse-gank the gankers. However, hit and run is certainly possible, and though there are ways to travel fast and talk to anyone in the game, there is no way to hunt down an enemy, short of getting a certain distance away from them and using a skill or line of sight. No footprints are left in the sand.
5) Death is of no consequence. The player doesn't lose anything of consequence, so ganking comes with very little to lose or discourage it. Not only that, but resurrection is fairly fast, and as I mentioned in #4, travel makes it pretty easy to return and continue the grieffest.
I'm sure there are a dozen more reasons why PvP doesn't work well in WoW, but I don't see the point in continuing.
I've gota say I hate this whole "carebear" thing, who made it up?!? Ganking and killing greys is like whacking on a 5 yearold kid. A gray litteraly has 100% no chance, and people who do that have no personal honor in RL. I hate to beat up on PvP server people, and yes I do play a PvE after I found that WoW pvp sucks outside of BGs. DAoC had it right, questing zones, and pvp zones it just makes complete sence. For those that say War is unfair and dirty, thats because modern warfare sucks, and seems to have lost any form of honor. Seeing as this is a fantasy game and not a modern combat game, honor in war is part of the game (outside of the undead).
In short, gankers are gutless people, who have no sence of honor. Sadly WoW cant see that their pvp servers suck, they just see high populations. In all reality EQ2 has it right, pvp can only be done within a level range (commons and antonica are 8 above/bellow) and the higher you go the bigger the gap. I'll play pvp on EQ2 any day, but outside of the BGs I hate pvp in wow.
For the occupied zones, there should be police forces of some kind (better than the current NPCs in the most common zones, as the current ones are nearly as easily killed as the lowbies) or perhaps a warrant system. If the person was looking for recognition, the more he kills the higher the warrant becomes, and so everyone will know him because they will be after him. That latter part is the downside. Maybe an announcement by the border forces if he's spotted or when he strikes again. People can already return from the dead, so it's not like it has to be realistic.
The World PvP is a good thing for the setting, but it needs to be fine tuned so people can still have fun.
EDIT: It works now
I've read many here saying "I like (both) PvP (and PvE), but I don't want to get annoyed while PvEing". The fact is you obviously don't enjoy PvP the same way really PvP-oriented players do (I personnaly call your kind "bored carebears" = people that try PvP only because they are bored with their neverending grind (don't feel obliged to flame me for this, I already know that's rude), I was one of those back when I played WoW).
If you are on a PvP server, you can't complain about anything PvP-related imo. You made the wrong choice when you chose your server's type
(many chose PvP-servers only because that sounded "hip" ^^ without thinking of what it meant). Blizzard cannot make you ungankable/uncampable/whatever on their PvP server of course. Why ? Because in WoW, PvP is very soft already. Even softer PvP would mean there is no PvP left, and that would be a problem for those so-called PvP servers 
The only PvP part i was not disgusted by in WoW was the open-PvP. BGs clearly are a joke (capture the flag ? PvE quests inside the BG? please...).
The problem with WoW is that it's not designed around PvP. One thing that always bothered me is the ability to see the exact level and health of your opponent, or the inability to hide in a bush because a huge red name is over your head. It's easy to kill someone if he's at 10% health, easy to run away if he's at 100% health, but what to do if you can't see his health or mana bars, or level for that matter? It adds a new dimension, and will change your fighting strategy.
WoW's PvP has always been the joke of all MMOs in my opinion, as is the reason people often say 'wait for Warhammer'. Capture the Flag? We're at war here, yet you want me to capture the flag? We raid a town with 30 people, get punished for killing vendors, can't kill children, and have new guards spawn on us every 5 seconds that will eventually overrun us. Some PvP you have there. A reward system is in place that's designed for people playing 24 hours a day. The only thing happening when you die is a 20 seconds corpserun. If you're grinding in a contested area with a player of the opposing faction, you'll often find the players not attacking eachother, because both know it's pointless. There is no gain from a kill, and the other player will be back in 15 seconds to avenge his death.
It's not a PvP game, and this debate.. I don't know if Joe and Garrett have ever seen a debate but this was not one. It's funny to see Garrett start off with "I've always been a ganking type of person", yet end with "write code that prohibits the players fighting anything 10 levels below them"
Carebear points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate:
- Ganking is frustrating
- Corpsecamping is annoying
- If you want to PvP go to battlegrounds
- PvP is not for me. Transferring to PvE needs to be possible or my experience is ruined.
- Why must I wait 4 minutes before I can resurrect after someone killed me 4 times?
Hardcore points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate:
- Taking over towns should be an option
- A death penalty should be added
- Why can't I loot my opponent?
- Why can't I even rest long enough to regain health before my opponent is back to stomp me?
- Why can someone who's running into a wall in a battleground 14 hours a day get the highest rank, but I, with 3 hours of play a day and a kill:death ratio in 30:1 am stuck in one of the lowest ranks?
- Why can't I kill people of my own faction after they scam me?
- Why can't I kill people of the opposing faction in certain zones, even on PvP servers?
You want to make a debate, make it a good one. What I read was not a debate, just random comments that didn't even go into detail of ... well, anything at all.
You got to be freakin kidding me, who the hell are those two clowns? PvP in WoW, is almost non-exsistant! It's more like uber gear vs uber gear, or pansie honor farming twink !@#!@$ Blizzard did more than drop the ball with PvP, they freakin lost it! There is no meaning to PvP, there is no risk, no reason to go out and risk yourself to gain anything. It's all about item whoring, period.
Bah I'm done, I've been down this road way to freakin many times on the same subject. Blizz is not going to change it, it's beyond repair now.
i'm 43, father of 3, we all 4 play... pvp only. Even so, these games (MMOs) get boring pretty quick. AI is just to weak to create any real degree of IMMERSION imo (which is the whole point really). When we all 4 played WoW, it was pre-BG, and it was a blast... big long battles in BB were my favorite... a REAL pirate town. Eventually the server kept getting bigger and the 30v30 SS-TM battles turned into 100v100, and the game broke down because of LAG... (which is the REAL reason BGs were created to begin with).
But everyone I know and played with, wanted even more pvp... i.e. we wanted a FREE-FOR-ALL server. I never really 'camped' people, but I would kill em if I saw them... and random battles that would form here and there were great. STV in the 30s was the best part of WoW.
Anyone who would consider or say the phrase "I want to get something done" or "I want to gather some resources" or "I want to finish this quest and level" .... should DEFINATELY be playing on a PVE server.
It's when the PVE people (the two writers debating in this article) want to play on PVP servers that the whole thing goes the wrong direction. I wanted MORE pvp... i want FREE-FOR-ALL. No one is ever forced to do anything they don't want or enjoy, and all whining based on that premise, given the fact that the choice for PVE servers exist, is completely ridiculous. Play on a PVE server!!! .... jeeze...
So person x has to die over and over when he has lost his equipment to attain a new set? Sounds excessively harsh and time-consuming.
PvP in WoW is roughly the equivalent of the "red headed step-child".
PvP was never really a concern for Blizzard. PvE is the meat and potato's of the game. It's proven over and over again. Cross realms battlegrounds have ruined cooperation and teamwork. Queues have become amazingly long on some servers and very short on others. Battlegrounds are filled with AFK honor leeches that Blizzard seems to want to do nothing about. The expansion has promised us 5-5 3-3 and 2-2 arena combat.......a far cry from the original AV and the slaughterfest that it delivered prior to Crossrealms.
World PvP is a joke. You PvP for 5 min (if in fact you encounter anyone who might try to stop you) and when you complete your little objective (take a tower, or gather some dust) you get a buff mainly set up for PvE raids. Funny that both World PvP "battles" take place in some of the most highly trafficed areas in terms of raids.
The honor system is beyond hope. I acheived rank 10 on my server even at my measily 3-5 hours of playtime each day. Anything past rank 10 would require me to quit my job, leave my wife and abandon my children.
First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.
While WoW PvP could have been much more meaningful, the way it has been implemented seems very artificial. What is contested in the 'contested zones'? You can't take over or control anything and there are no lasting consequences to any action. Sure you can raid a town and wipe out all the NPCs, but 30 minutes later they are all back again as though nothing has happened, so there is little motivation to defend your town unless you are strong enough to have a chance to survive. I know its too late to make any major changes to WoW PvP, but they should at least make killing a grey player as dishonerable kill unless they initiated the fight.
Of the dozens on online games that I've played, I think SWG had the best implementated (had, meaning before the redesign). The problem of ganking low levels was largely solved by allowing players to choose when they wanted to stop being neutral and pick a side. If you didn't like getting picked on as a low level, you could wait until you had advanced and felt strong enough. If you liked the risk of being a low level target, you could do that too.
In WoW, I think a great addition for the expansion would have been to add the goblins as a playable race with an emphasis on crafting and trading. They could be the neutrals in the game that could talk to both sides and safely visit both sides capital cities. A starting island between Ratchet and Booty Bay would fit right in.
It must be peaceful having such a lack of imagination.
If a human can charge a giant or a dragon then surely a gnome can confront a larger, more clumsy Tauren (the David and Goliath story applies here). Within a fantasy setting the races are not simply small or large versions of a human base. If a gnome is as strong as a Tauren by some set scale then I imagine that the gnome is either composed of muscles like steel cable or fueled by some arcane energy.
The Jet Li version of an arena combatant if you will or perhaps, in this scenario, the relatively small matador versus a charging bull.
I suppose if it were a superhero game it would be easier for some although in this setting I suppose that the player characters are almost superheroes compared to the average population of their race.
Okay, okay I derailed and to make it even worse I responded to an obvious joke but I couldn't help myself.
Because it's too difficult to grief on an FPS. With an actual "War" game the playing field is pretty even so even the guy who just started the same day and hasn't even learned all the controls will kill you if he gets the jump, you know, because having played 18 hours a day for 3 months doesn't make newbie bullets any less effective. That and the only real way to make yourself overpowered is to be skillful. I don't think anyone who's killing people 10 levels below them with a squad all day is looking for that kind of challenge.
The only way to prevent griefing is to restrict the levels you're able to attack. If you add penalties people will only make low level characters and continue trying to grief when they see a fight going on by running into AoE's or making people mistarget.
ugh... this is the kind of low-forhead overgeneralizing that makes me wander why I even waste my time at this site...
player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !! You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun! We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...
player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.
The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...
please stay far away from Darkfall Online, kthxbye
ugh... this is the kind of low-forhead overgeneralizing that makes me wander why I even waste my time at this site...
player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !! You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun! We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...
player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.
The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...
Haven't seen any anti-pvp arguments around here. Crazyland is a definite possibility.
The effects of world PvP in WoW?
There are none.
Combat is so well balanced that if you kill someone they will be back in 2 minutes undeterred and annoying you again while you are trying to level to 60 as quickly as possible. You cant not go into an area because you want to avoid conflict, becuase you have to go there to "level". Leveling is just bs time wasting. Your PvP actions have no effect on the world. Sure MAYBE if you kill the leader of the opposing side the server just gets reset. How boring.
Whats the point of playing a game PvE only, wow is as lame as it gets already. You forgot roleplaying servers btw.
The only thing carrying this game is the fanchise of warcraft. If every1 judged the game on its mechanics no one would play it. Its crap.
This is somewhat silly, reminds me of a debate for the sake of having a debate over a non-issue. PVP is meaningless in WOW, (other than for the fun of a good fight). One side cannot "control" territory over precious rescources, it doesnt affect the storyline, and you can't even loot the fallen. I've never been huge on PVP (because mostly there is no point, and because it is almost always poorly done), yet I do enjoy a little PVP action occasionally for the adrenaline rush. PVP battle is always the most challenging and thereby the most exciting kind of battle in a game environment. However except for a few games, its almost never implemented well. Anarchy Online gets props for sucessfully implenting PVP combat, that had meaning and never involved ganking. Games that implement unlimited PVP are rarely very successful as the uncontrolled ganking drives away most potential new players.
Is PVP combat "ruining" WOW? Hardly, most of the servers are PVE!.
As usual the wrong question is being asked.
The real question is "How do you improve WOW PVP without ruining the game for everyone?" Personally I wish every world had some contested zone's, with quests crucial to both sides within", I would focus on areas for characters level 30+. Theres something wrong when I go to searing gorge on my PVE server and the Horde and alliance flight points are like 100 feet apart.
Rigghawk
Joe: How do you folks out there feel about griefing and open PVP?
I have NEVER camped/griefed anyone in my entire mmo gaming life... but if I saw you in a game, I would camp and grief you till my dick fell off. why?
Joe: Before anybody really gets into why I'm on a PvP server and not a PvE server, its simple why would I want to limit my options.
Because of 'reasoning' like that, (if you could call that reasoning). ... so you want to be FREE (not limited) to do what? have a few battles with humans in a virtual world? Why? (maybe because like everyone else you get a little bored clicking mines or killing respawnable mobs)? You never really said what you wanted to be free (not limited) to do...
So I have to guess from the other stuff you said about 'versus' that you want to be free to fight other humans as long as the fight is fair and equal? Of course every single swing is a random thing... a random chance to hit someone, a random chance they will not parry, block, or dodge, and if you hit them, then a random amount of damage. So suppose we could define 'fair' as being this: if two people fought each other 100 times, it would work out where each person won between 40-60 percent of the time? And I guess a 90-10 split would 'unfair'? And even given that, I suppose if multiple people are involved, that each side would need to have the same number of people? Then there is the whole level difference..... and mixed together is also a factor, because I remember winning with multiple lower-levels going against fewer higher levels and killing them all. And once such a 'fair' fight was defined, contrived, and actually occured... I suppose you want it to be repeatable, and yet everyone have the option to terminate the activity when they desired?
So to me it sounds like you want to be free to have ONLY fair fights (fair being a random win probability between 40-60 percent let's say), that groups will be even, and that it will not interfere with your sometimes short schedule of playtime.
And yet, such structured, even, and fair instances exist on PVE SERVERS!! They are called battlegrounds. Each side has the same number of people, level ranges are enforced, there is even a reason to do them, as you could grind out honor/faction. And if you don't have much time on any given night, you can go quest/grind money and NOT be bothered by other players. Given all that, you reject the implemention of everything you desire, to play on a pvp server, so you can be free to experience what? The things you don't like?
Sorry, but that's the kind of thinking that drives me batty... makes no sense whatsoever.
Debates between soft-pvpers and almost-PvE'ers aren't really debates I'm afraid.
Also, I don't think a pve'er rolling on a pvp server 'to keep their options open' is a valid reason. Clearly they should be on PvE. One of my biggest frustrations is PvE'ers who roll PvP then try to make the system more carebare to suit their own needs. Get a transfer or re-roll pve mate.
On PvP servers, a contested zone means what it says on the tin. One faction or the other will hold sway over certain areas and that's part of the fun. If it's too hot in one particular zone then move on. For instance, Stranglethorn Vale is always good for PvP but there are less contested areas where players can go to level up and bypass that zone completely.
Ganking is a pain, true, but I'm on my third level 60 now & I've never found it too much of a problem. Especially when there is no death penalty in pvp.
It's the zones themselves that are contested I think. Your faction dominates it so the other faction avoids it in high numbers giving you reletively peaceful questing and farming. Some zones are war zones where you always need to watch your back. That would be the defintion of contested I think. It more or less sums up what you are walking into when you cross the border.
I do agree that it should be more purposeful but I think we'll have to wait for Warhammer Online for that.
Joe Iuliani put it the best way I have heard it so far.
Why is WoW the center of every mmorpg topic? It doesn't qualify to be the center of attention it's a cartoony game for kids.
Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill.
Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs.
There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons.
Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers.
I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.
1. SKILL is irrelevant. It's not about 'winning or loosing', it's about having some degree of UNPREDICTABILITY, some degree of dynamism to an otherwise boring repetitive game. You are obviously replying to some taunt made by a kid who pwnd you are whatever... just say it with me... "kids will be kids...I really don't care... this is only a game".
2. I need PVP and I'm not "children"... got 3 children myself... that play MMOs. "attack the man" technique is of course irrelevent. I have a life, job, wife, kids, business, and I want pvp in an mmo. When I want to feel 'skilled' I play fps... sure. I want pvp in an mmo because I'm not rainman.
3. IF a game provides PVE servers (as does WoW, eq2, etc), then complaints about GRIEFING are irrelevent. You can play on PVE servers and have EVERYTHING you desire... why do you care whether pvp servers exist at all? Then to even hint that you would quit a game ("loosing literally thousands of subscribers") because pvp exists, when you could of course play on a pve server, is absolutely insane.
4. most MMOs have screwed up pvp mechanics completely. Well, I might agree with that statement... you have a point there perhaps. There is of course a sure fire way to answer that. Create multiple servers, each with some slightly altered pvp mechanic. Then let the people/customers decide. For that matter, they are deciding between pve and pvp servers right now, by the fact that both exist, and the customers go to one or the other. I don't know the exact breakdown, but I suspect there are more pve players in wow. But I don't think it's 90-10 or anything... a little closer to 50-50 maybe. So if either of those categories are "too broad", then companies should have various alterations of the game mechanics and see how server populations evolve.
But then again, all this is assuming that the SOLUTION to the existing broken mechanics you claim to exist are actually defineable, reasonable, and can be implemented. You didn't say what was broken, and then you didn't say how it could be fixed... so who knows.
Background: 42 year old professional, WoW is my 28th MMO (19 of which were alpha/betas), multiple 60's on PvE and PvP realms, yadda yadda yadda.
I am not a PvP player. I never have been, never will be, it is not my style. That said, I do understand it, have done it, and know the score. I play on a PvP server because IRL friends play there. I have never been griefed, though I have been ganked, and that's just part of the experience.
Killing someone on a PvP server is not griefing, no matter how you slice it. The Horde and Alliance are at war, they are out to kill each other, it's canon. If you are in a contested zone and allow your health to get low, you deserve to die. If you are not paying attention and you get ganked by a rogue, you deserve to die. If you tape $100 bills all over your body and go walking through some high-crime neighborhood at 2am, you deserve to die.
If you don't want non-consensual PvP, then play on a PvE server and have the "best" elements of PvP in the battlegrounds. On a PvE server, if you don't want to PvP, you don't. If you do, you /pvp and you are. You are 100% in control of your experience on a carebear server. I know, I did it.
If you make a toon on a PvP server, you are told when you auto-flag, and if you aren't paying attention, then you get to die. You assume you will be ganked at every moment, and act accordingly...that is the PvP experience, not just in WoW, but any MMO that allows non-consensual PvP. It's not griefing, it's called tactics. If the OP feels that the only real PvP is when Ally player A walks up to Horde player B, ensures they are of the proper level, gets their attention, slaps them in the face with a gauntlet, then awaits their reply, they are SERIOUSLY detached from reality.
You go AFK on a PvP server in a contested zone, you are going to die, guaranteed. You get in over your head and overpull some mobs, you are going to get ganked. These are facts of life on a PvP server, and not even remotely griefing.
The OP needs to transfer to a PvE server and stop being so sensitive. People who bash PvP in general simply don't understand it and are showing their intolerance of things they don't understand. Folks enjoy it, obviously, so condemning it won't make it go away or less popular, nor will Blizzard suddenly close all the PvP servers because a handful of forum campers disapprove :)
I've said it before, PvP in mmorpgs is a pointless affair as long as levels exist.
You are simply pitting your "more time spent stats" against "less time spent stats" so griefing people is just a pathetic expression of your own desire for power.
It's cheap, boring, and stops the such games from have mass appeal.
Would an MMORPG game work if it didn't have levels?
No matter how high you set the level cap, people will reach that level, so what will they do when they reach that cap? If you cant keep them interested at this point, then people will max out and get bored. If you can keep them interested at this point, they why force people to go through all the leveling in order to get to and see this content that had created for max-levels? If you dont have levels at all, then you only have to balance classes for one level (instead of making them balanced 50 times over - once for each level), and new players can play with vetrans, friends can play with friends. Forming guilds would be easier, raids would be easier, and everyone who plays the game can feel like they can contribute. Also, levels cause economy problems (if you make higher level creatures drop more/better loot then you have twinking, etc)
NPC driven Content
NPC driven content is a holdover from the Pen and Paper roleplaying days when you only have 5 people and you have to use NPCs to fill the many characters. NPCs were also used to direct players and allow a Single person to attempt to create a populated and immersive enviroment by directing players through a small area of the world that is easy to plan out ahead of time. Now in MMORPGs and WoW specifically, what happens is that you eventually reach a point where the developers cannot create content faster than players can Beat/finish the old stuff. end result the "raiding issue" with make .05% drops to make players want to run the same quest repeatively to give the devs more time to make more content.
Now NPCs do have a place in the game but more as stand-ins when you need to guarntee other characters on side quests.
Static World
Nothing ever changes in WoW, The reason is in order to have the really well scripted instanced events its best to have people in as predefined area as possible. if it was there yesterday more and likely it will be there tommorrow and the next day and the next day. When was the last time you logged into the WoW forums to see if anything major had happened to the game world when you left? doubt you ever did. the lack of PvP built in the game through Conquerable lands/resources means that there is no true reason to fight for control of teritory. Further driving...
Poor Crafting
Well its another side effect from the NPC driven content/raiding. You need to have uber items to make people want to repeat that same quest for that .05% drop rate. So that means that in the end crafted items have to be worse then raid items. That all ends up to be the problem in WoW, only a select few trade skills are actually useful in the long run. And to add to this problem is the fact that equipment is never destroyed/lossed so there is no reason NOT to use the uber raid drops further lowering demand on player crafted items. With Item destruction/looting having that almighty Sword of destruction +7 isn't as great if it gets destroyed/ taken your first time out. Instead having a slew of ready made easily built swords is much more important.
Horrible PVP
Now all the above leads us to this. Having both Level and equipment being a major factor in who wins, on top of absolutely no REAL effect on the game world makes WoW PvP bad. So to get people to PvP they use a honor system that just turns it into another work for that .05% drop item game to get you to do it over and over. All of this is very poor MMORPG design. Works for a regular game but not really for a MMORPG.
Now thats all said look what would happen if you had well designed PvP built into the game. Note not open PvP but well designed. 2 Areas where each faction starts would be NPC controlled and policed. then in between a deadmans land. There you would have all the good stuff to allow your crafters to make better weapons and towns that you can capture to allow points to rest and heal, along with being forward resupply and manufacturing out posts. Not to mention sending out NPC patrols to help protect the industrial members of the faction. Suddenly the game becomes this Epic struggle where even PvEers like my self don't mind going because you are on constant quests against other players that are significantly more dynamic then any AI will be.
I think the largest issues with MMORPGS is they try to be story games and you eventually run out of stories. While PVE is great for Single/Small groups it tends to break down in a MMO as the game shoulod be designed for you to play on for a longer period of time. PvP (note meaningfull PvP) if done properly can offer significant amount of playability to a game. Though I will add that level are also another hold over from single player games/pen and Paper as it either makes it easier for DMs or as a restricter on characters to prevent them from deviating from the story. Very shallow but broad skill trees work much better with MMOs.
Anyway thats my 2 cents on the subject.
Nic, while I agree that WoW has issues, it has 6.5 million people, more then every other MMO in history, combined, so it's obviously doing something right. There are more PvE realms then PvP, and WoW's numbers are going up, not down, so obviously all of the problems people throw out here are cosmetic at best...that, or we're looking at the typical forum mentality of .5% of the people sitting here complaining about a game that more people are playing than live in most US metropolitan areas (or states, for that matter).
PvP is not required for an MMO to be successful. EQ released without it. CoH released without it. Many successful MMO's have released without it. However, PvP guys have money, and often have more dedication to a game then PvE players, so it's EASY momey. PvE players get bored if the devs don't throw them candy, PvP players use each other to entertain themselves, or PvE guys who stand still too long :) Any dev in their right mind wants a piece of that money, which means throwing the PvP guys a bone.
People need to stop thinking in absolutes, because all absolutes are wrong in this context:
All Static MMO's fail! - Wrong, WoW is static.
WoW's PvP sucks! - Maybe, but more people PvP in WoW than EQ, EQ2, CoH, SWG, etc combined, so obviously it's attractive to a LOT of people.
All Level based systems fail! - Wrong, obviously not.
I know folks hate it when people use WoWs numbers, but they're unavoidable and ignoring them is...ignorant :)
Personally I think WoW's PvP implementation is the best in any MMO ever (obviously WoW's numbers prove me right! :p) It could certainly use some work, but that's true of everything everywhere. I personally am looking forward to the PvP ladders and the G4 coverage...what other game can you say you are the BEST PvP'r out of 6.5 million people? No tourney in the world has that many participants! :D
I wish there was some hc PvP game, im talking ffa PvP with full loot and exp/gold reward for killing people and penalty for those who die.
WoW opened up the MMORPG market to the masses but by far did alot of harm in what is expected. I started in CoH and WoW doing the whole PvE system and when I went to EVE(always was a Space ship nut) I resisted PvP for as long as I could. Then I actually helped take a chunk out of deadmans space I realize what I was missing from my previous MMOs a truely persistant world where what you do matters. slowly i'm prying my friends away from WoW and though many don't stay with EVE they realize that with WoW they were paying for a glorified Diablo where the servers could shut down as soon as you log off and it wouldn't matter.
And EQ, CoH, and in WoW I have heard the same complaints in the lack of end game content. And not surpriseing every single one of them have PvP in them now... think its a coincidence
Of course a lot of people in WoW haven't experienced other MMO's...prior to WoW, the MMO market was what, 400k folks? WoW redefined the market and met the expectations of a ton of people who didn't have their minds filled with bitter ideas...in short, WoW is the MMO for the normal folks, not the angry forum dwelling 30k who know exactly how a MMO should be written, know no other MMO has come close, know they all suck, and only this bitter 30k could use the words "poor MMO" and "WoW" in the same sentence...6.5 million people makes WoW the richest MMO ever :)
EQ added PvP long before anyone was at end game, but it was slapped on with duct tape and sucked, it alienated more people than it attracted.
CoH added PvP after they lost 45% of their market, and have never recovered it. Anyone who enjoys PvP doesn't do CoH because, again, it was slapped on with duct tape.
WoW's PvP was in the game day 1. It's gone through lots of iterations and changed more then any other MMO's PvP (including Shadowbane, which is ALL PvP) in response to customer concerns. They add PvP servers quarterly and aren't retiring any, so obviously WoW PvP has what people want.
You speak for your 40 folks who, regardless of their reasons, are still paying Blizzard, just like the other 6.5 million. People who write a check to the company they're complaining about don't have a lot of credibility :) Regardless, we need to stop bashing the most successful MMO in history (because it's pointless) and get back on topic...The effects of world PvP in Wow.
On PvE servers, there is no involuntary PvP, world or otherwise, so there is no impact.
On PvP servers, World PvP has a number of Effects:
- It allows you to kill farmers you don't like
- It creates an environment of tension, which is intentional, and quite enjoyable to millions of PvP players
- It attracts millions of PvP players, as well as whiners who type how awful it is with their left hands while signing checks to Blizzard with their right :)
World PvP in WoW is not only not going to be nerfed, it's becoming core in BC. One of the center cities in Outland is 100% based on world PvP...if you don't fight, you lose the town and can't go there to get the quests...if you have the town, you're constantly being ambushed and ganked and bombed. Outland is all about world PvP, so if you don't like it now, I'd cancel before it hits :)
Amusingly enough, nothing happening on death is one of the things people LOVE about WoW. I read this fascinating article about the devs at Vanguard, making an MMO for "real men, men who love corpse runs", LOL. Nothing happens when you die in Unreal, yet millions play it. Counterstrike, Halflife, pick your FPs, nothing happens and people line up to play them. Why? Because the kill is it's own reward.
Again, the forum minority and their "no death penalties = MMO sux!" are just that, the minority. As the old timer on my server, I'm often speaking to the new kids about death penalties and every single one of them said they'd never play a game that punished them for experimenting. Death penalties are for those 30k bitter forum junkies who always envision the "perfect MMO" that no 3 of them can agree on and 10k folks would play at most. They're the ones that crank out Permanent Death as the end-all-be-all....but it isn't, because PD is what happens in real life, and no one pays $15/month to be reminded about how much real life sucks.
That's one of the reasons world PvP in WoW is so non-impactive...nothing happens. What did you lose, a few moments? How inconvenienced are you, truly? It's like driving along on the road and seeing some teenager flip you off, just because he can....how hurt are you, truly? Only as much as you allow yourself to be. And, if you get all wound up and upset over being ganked, the 15 year old ganker won hands down, and would likely be in a rapture if he knew how much control he had over you :)
written by MacAllen
That's one of the reasons world PvP in WoW is so non-impactive...nothing happens. What did you lose, a few moments? How inconvenienced are you, truly? It's like driving along on the road and seeing some teenager flip you off, just because he can....how hurt are you, truly? Only as much as you allow yourself to be. And, if you get all wound up and upset over being ganked, the 15 year old ganker won hands down, and would likely be in a rapture if he knew how much control he had over you :)
i'm missing something here because you go from the PvP servers makes you tense to it doesn't matter. If I didn't want to PvP on the PvP server I just stood there let them kill me then make the short run to my corpse and kept going.
Yes FPS games are fun, yes deaths don't matter, though surprisingly the ones that stick around the longest arethe ones with the clan based ranks and in the games for your ranking how often you die DOES matter. And plus most of those games are played on a far more interactive enviroment with groups of friends, that is any reasonable time after release. there is always that mad rush then you either get organized to give it a point or you stop playing which I usually do.
I like carebears. I like that they enjoy a game's background so much that they don't care if they need to grind a little to experience it. I like that they build strategies to fight against mobs the best way possible, etc... Even though that's not my thing, i think that's kinda cool.
I'm nearly 100% PvP-oriented. I'm always up for an even (or uneven, if I am the one at a disadvantage] fight which will give me an adrenaline rush. I don't get this rush if I PK lowbies, camp or gank small-groups with a raid, obviously. People who do that on a daily basis are just troubled people. PvP existence is not at fault here.
So when i read anti-PvP carebear extremists like DeadthWolf2u, who say there is no place for PvP in MMOs, it makes me want to camp them until I fall asleep in front of my PC. No wonder they get PKed, they must have that sick aura IG too that makes you want to destroy their game experience, just like they aim to do for us (true?) PvPers by removing PvP content in MMOs.
I laugh each time someone says "PvPers should not play MMos, FPSs are made for them". Well, guess what... PvPers could say the same : "Quit MMOs carebears ! They are non-MMO games made for PvEers who want to team-up with mates : they are called cooperative RPGs : Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc... "
MMOs add the 'huge community" factor to everyone's game experience, not just PVEers. Just Bear with it !
what a bunch of whiners..
its not fair its not fair, poor me cause i suck.. i'll stab all of you allies and baby horde without remorse or regard for level, do something about it besides bellyaching.. and yes 2 undergeared 50s can still spank on a teir 3 60 so get some friends, theres other people playing wow also *shock*. if not go play some console games they will wipe ur bum for ya and hold ur hand crossing the road.
With that said, I have a solution that may not be creditable to some, but to other's I think the value is worth it.
This solution is Simple try to go level PvP range for World PvP. 1-24, 25-37, 38-49, 50-60 would be the pvp ranges.
Keep in mind this IS NOT for BG's and is only intact to asure semi-fair fights in World PvP.
I think this solution is great and some may agree, but when some disagree, you are simply saying you have a better idea, most likely a better pvp range, but the semi-balance these levels bring is TOTALLY worth it.