Player Perspectives: Bring Your Own Sand
One of the perennial arguments amongst MMO gamers is the one that centers around Theme Park vs Sandbox games. Proponents of one or the other draw battle lines and argue vehemently that "theirs is the best type" of MMO. In today's Player Perspectives, MMORPG.com columnist Isabelle Parsley takes a look at these two MMO types. She's got a lot to say about them so be sure to check out her article. Leave us your thoughts in the comments.
Column By Isabelle Parsley on February 25, 2011
We all love labels, and MMO players are no exception. One of the ways in which we differentiate one game from another is to label them as either “theme park” (or on rails) and “sandbox”. As with all labels one size doesn’t usually fit all, but one can still distinguish notable examples of one type or the other.
UO, for instance, was an early sandbox game, as was Asheron’s Call. More recently you have A Tale in the Desert (Egyptian sand, no less!), Star Wars Galaxies, EVE and Fallen Earth. On the theme park side you have the 800lb gorilla, of course – WoW – and LOTRO, AION, and in fact most of the MMOs released in the US and Europe in the last half-decade. For the most part, sandbox games are outnumbered by theme park games.
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So what makes one game a sandbox and another a theme park? In very general terms, theme park games tend to have much more structured progress from level 1 to the level cap and usually beyond. Progression is clearly defined and the activities players carry out to achieve said progression are clearly marked and clearly chained (usually in the form of zones and quests). On the other hand, sandbox games don’t usually tell you what to do and when and some may not have levels at all, like the early SWG or the entirely skill-point based EVE. In theme park games, progression through the content is one of the major aims of the game. In sandbox games, you’re often left to define your own progression, assuming you want to progress at all and not just spend all your time picking papyrus on the banks of the Nile or shooting down other players’ spaceships in remote star systems.
The thing is, while you can progress through sandbox games in any way you want, since there’s no actual obligation to progress in a particular direction or at all, almost every sandbox game I know of has gradually added more structure, more theme-parkish elements, over the last few years. SWG is an extreme example of this – the revamp and NGE period added levels, defined classes and roles by entirely stripping out the mix-n-match profession choices, and provided a number of clear paths to go from level 1 to level 90. It’s almost heretical to admit that the NGE had any redeeming features at all, but I’ve been back to SWG since then and in some ways it did improve the game; sadly, in many ways it also killed the game’s heart and soul.
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In fact, all the sandbox games I mentioned as examples above – ATITD, EVE, FE and SWG – have been modified and overhauled to add more structure since they first came out. EVE, a notoriously difficult game to pick up as a new player, has attempted to make this initial experience a little less disorienting by providing more structured missions and quests that attempt to introduce a player to the various types of activities that are possible in the game. Fallen Earth did much the same thing a year or so ago. (I’d be interested to know, from readers who play or have played that game, whether Darkfall has ended up adding more structured elements or if it remains exactly as it was at launch.)
The reverse trend isn’t as prevalent, probably because it’s easier to add rides to a sandbox than it is to add sand to a theme park. EQ2 is a pretty good example of a hybrid game: it has always had questing progression (though that too has been overhauled and streamlined in the last few years), but it remains possible for a player to ignore the standard rides – adventuring, gaining levels, doing dungeons – and to concentrate entirely on other aspects of the game such as crafting, collections, or designing awesome housing décor.
The debate between proponents of one type of game over the other can become quite heated, as MMO debates often seem to do. Sandbox fans tend to deride theme park games as somehow less authentic and lesser, while theme park fans point to the fact that sandbox games lack focus and don’t actually offer anything to “do” in the long run. Those aren’t facts – they’re purely value judgments. So is the argument that one type of game has less retention potential than the other: I know players who have been faithfully playing WoW since its release, just as I know players who have never played anything other than EVE. (That said, those are extreme examples; most of the players I know have played both sandbox games and theme park games at one time or another, if only because most MMO players I know can’t resist the lure of trying something new every now and then.)
The most common argument I hear is that the two types of games appeal to radically different types of people, but that’s also untrue. What they do is appeal and cater to radically different playstyles. That’s not the same thing. Theme park games tend to provide a very structured experience with very clear – and equally structured – rewards; sandbox games, on the other hand, give you the freedom to make your own fun every time you log on. Some days I just want to log on, kill shit with my friends and have fun, without thinking too much about how I’m going to create said fun; other days I want to create commercial empires, find rare housing items, or just rumble around the world doing my own thing without caring about whether I’m getting rewards or whether I’m moving forward.
I’ve played both types of games over the years. While sandbox games generally appeal to my playstyle preferences more than theme park games, I don’t hate on the latter and I’m currently playing the biggest theme park of them all: WoW. I knew what to expect when I went back, and I’m enjoying the hell out of the rides this time around; when the theme park is as varied and slick as Azeroth has become, it can be both enjoyable and compelling to try all the rides, at least for a while. We’ll have to see how it goes when boredom and burnout start to set in.
But boredom and burnout aren’t exclusive to theme park games, as I know from experience. Arguably, sandbox environments aren’t as oriented toward achiever, A-type personalities, which might mean that the people playing them aren’t as prone to getting bored when they’re not presented with a constant influx of new challenges and new things to do; but I’m no Nick Yee, and I have no research other than observations over the years to back that up. But even sandbox players get bored, because it’s human nature to get bored when we’re doing the same type of thing day in, day out; and since we play games specifically in order to be entertained (among other things), we tend to not be tolerant of becoming bored in them.
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After years and years of stringent empirical research (read: spending my subs every month on over a dozen different games), I’ve come to a couple of conclusions that suit my playstyle and make it easier to avoid that feeling of ennui and lack of focus when I log in. If I’m playing a sandbox game, I’ll try to make time for the structured activities now and then, partly because they’re enjoyable and partly because they provide a change in pace, especially since one of the biggest boredom-triggers for me is doing the same thing every time I log in. (I eventually burned out of SWG, years ago, because my trading empire was sucking up all my time. There’s only so many factories you can plop down and load all day long before you start wondering when your beloved game turned into a full-time job.)
And if I’m playing a theme-park game, every now and then I just get off the rails and take off into the wild blue yonder. Granted, I can’t suddenly decide to start a manufacturing empire in WoW (though I certainly could decide to start an auction-house empire), nor can I spend time finding cool stuff to decorate my house with – still one of my pet peeves, Blizzard! – but that doesn’t mean I can’t bring my own sand. Sandbox play is as much a state of mind as it is a type of game design: to some extent, it’s purely the decision to avoid structure for a time and create one’s own fun. Anyone can do that, in any environment.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you play, or why, or how, as long as you’re having fun. And one thing I’ve discovered is that no matter what you play, it’s who you play with that makes the biggest difference over the long term. If you’ll pardon a rather tortured metaphor: friends are the best sand of all.
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I'd like to quote you on this one:
"Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you play, or why, or how, as long as you’re having fun."
One phrase to rule them all.
I keep seeing Fallen Earth cited as a sandbox and I'm curious what features/tools it has that make it any more of a sandbox than Aion or LOTRO.
It really isn't much more of a sandbox than any of those games. It's still heavily quest oriented, with linear quest hub/zone progression.
This was an incredibly entertaining read. I have to say that I agree with it almost completely. A game really is what the players make of it and we should be having fun with it no matter what.
Excellent article. Very nice touch points utilizing different playstyles versus different players. I have played both themepark and sandbox games and find that "change of pace" is what keeps me in games. I tend to play sandbox games for longer periods of times than themeparks before I switch to the other.
I will and do find the best fun in a game comes, not from the playstyle or theme, but from playing with friends and family. Playing with people I enjoy spending time with makes any game enjoyable.
For me the definition of a sandbox is pretty broad. What I tend to focus on is how much choice and freedom my char has and the games' encouragment or discouragement of community as big factors regardless of whether it is defined as a themepark or sandbox.
For example an MMORPG that casts every single char as the main char in the mandatory main storyline.
Poor UI with regards to communication between chars.
Lack of or gimped crafting/economy dynamics
Only 1 faction and every player is in it.
Not being able to look or dress distinctively (Non-combat clothes).
What makes it more sandboxy than others is that you dont have to level via quests. You can, but it can be as fast or faster to level grinding. You can also level some of crafting and gathering, but imo it is slower.
So traditional sandbox? not in my opinion, but def more than your typical MMO out right now.
Also, the lack of classes i think.
Because, people think crafting = sandbox. The same way they say it has a great crafting system, when in reality it doesn't. Again, just because everything is crafted, doesn't make the crafting good. In fact, the crafting is no more complex or better than WoW's, it just has 100 times more materials that you have to store. Not to mention, crafting is rather pointless if you're an ecnomy player, because Fallen Earth has nothing that even remotely resembles an economy.
To me, Fallen Earth is not much different than a Post-Apoc Sim on Second Life. (I think combat may be better in Second Life too! lol) The only purpose to playing, is for the sake of playing. Most people in the world want goals and at least some reason to play, even if that reason isn't real.
Sorry, the train wreck that is Fallen Earth is probably the biggest let down in my entire 10yr MMO virtual life. There really are no good aspects of the game and it's pathetic that it keeps getting put on a pedestal. The game from the ground up is completely flawed in every way imaginable.
You can grind to 80 in WoW. I'm not sure about Cat, but in Vanilla, TBC, and WoTLK, you could grind mobs all day long to 80 if that's what you wanted.
This debate is just a matter of opinion. I personally find skill based systems far superior to levels. The major problem with leveling systems, you have entire areas that are ONLY visited when you are in that level range. Not so with skill based systems at all. Leveling systems end up with players concentrated in few zones at end game, not so with skill based systems. Seems a much better use of all that graphic design.
well since you asked from peope who played FE, I did play it during the closed beta, and unless they make a really new intro mission, you did follow from the start a series of missions who would teach you about the 6 factions and about weapons, and mutations.
I would also put FE in a mix way of things, you can do whatever there but, missions tend to follow a certain path, some missions only open after you are done with others, also it will depend on the place and your standing with that faction. but in the end if you use guns, would just test you work with the craft.
'The most common argument I hear is that the two types of games appeal to radically different types of people, but that’s also untrue. What they do is appeal and cater to radically different playstyles. That’s not the same thing.'
Well said!
I agree completely! It's entirely possible to enjoy all kinds of games - the point is having fun.
A good comparison is Dungeons and Dragons Online and the stand alone sandbox Oblivion. DDO is the ultimate “theme park game”, you can't even stray from the predetermined paths. Oblivion is the ultimate “sandbox”, although I bought the game years ago I still pay it. This time ignoring all the “quests” available in the game. I quit DDO after 2 years, tired of doing the same thing over and over with different characters. I remember playing the first computer game “Colossal Cave”, no graphics, all text, however it was a cross between the two genres. While you could wonder all over the cave, if you didn't find the battery for your light, you died. I hate games with scripts, you have to do this, then do that, it's like being in a movie and not being able to write the script or getting paid. Putting “theme park” elements in a sand box is like finding a Kentucky Fried Rat in you chicken barrel.
I agree with most of it other than the FE part. Other than the skill point system (AP), I don't consider anything about FE to be a sandbox. If you want to get all the APs (everyone does), you are stuck following the quest lines from hub to hub just like other themeparks. Your actions have no impact on the world or other players which to me is a big factor in being a sandbox.
Isabelle, I'm new here and I just wanted to say that I have been reading your posts most of the day. I love your perspectives and ideas about MMORPG gaming. Keep up the great work.
There’s only so many factories you can plop down and load all day long before you start wondering when your beloved game turned into a full-time job.
lol, that's exactly why a friend of mine quit SWG. he was working, crafting, filling orders, keeping track of his finances and then realized he was doing a second job that he wasn't getting paid (for real money).
for him Everquest turned out to be his cup of tea.
For my taste I prefer a bit of both sandbox and themepark. Grinding mobs can be relaxing and fun but sometimes one wants something more to do. Since crafting isn't my thing that's out and hving a house really doesn't do it for me as there is never anything that I can do with the house.
The most common argument I hear is that the two types of games appeal to radically different types of people, but that’s also untrue. What they do is appeal and cater to radically different playstyles. That’s not the same thing.
I disagree with this observation, on one point. There are people who prefer one form of playstyle over the other.
They ARE different types of people. Go to Xsyon players and ask them why they prefer Xsyon over Rift. For that matter, go to Rift players and ask they why they prefer Rift over Xsyon.
Aion and LOTRO are not Sandbox MMOs, Fallen Earth by far is.
roleplaying games and anti-roleplaying games.
in RPGs its good to expect some RP elements,like Ultima.
in anti-RPGs like rift,wow etc.,its not a good thing to expect RP elements..
Isabelle, much as I love your articles, FE is not a sandbox.
I love the game, I play the game, and it has always been a hybrid. I'm sorry, but this is one of my bugbears. Telling people FE is a sandbox leads them to expect a level of freedom that just currently isn't in-game.
Sure, there are alternate ways to hit cap other than running missions, but if you go that way you'll be short on AP (even with the random AP system they introduced, and are planning on "speeding up" in the next patch). Unless of course you want to do road rallies at 50 til your eyes bleed....(repeatable for AP rewards), or run back to sector 1 and wtfpwn everything in your path while catching up on bonus AP missions.
FE is classless, not tab-targetted, and endgame (to date) consists of making your own fun. It's sandboxy...but the reliance on PvE missions to make a halfway decent PvP or PvE build takes most of the sandbox freedom away.
Good article.
I'm one for sandbox. as a SWG-refugee i have played a lot of titles since then and no one has trapped my atention but for some weeks. I see them so linear and predictable it's imposible for me to walk the golden path of progression through levels, which i find quite boring, and furthermore the quest you are doing are done by a lot of people, the part of RPG is dead on this side.
Sandbox are an alternate life, themepark are.... themeparks.
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate :) I think there are really 3 labels and i have mentioned this before.
Sandbox has has no npcs to run quest sell off goods to.
Themepark you are forced to run quest.
and a Sandpark where you have very limited npcs to sell to and or run quest but the player creates alot of the content themselves.
I feel MO, DarkFall and UO are sandparks while Xyson is a actual sandbox or minecraft is a sandbox.
Xyson has no cities in game created by the dev team there are no npcs to chat to in game. The only npcs we have are things to kill that are needed for crafting. Wurm online and Minecraft would also fit the bill for a true sandbox.
With one caveat: as long as you having fun, doesn't ruin someone else's fun.
The ultra-polarized hardcore gamer of MMORPG.com isn't a good sample base for any study. :)
Most people are capable of enjoying multiple playstyles.
The presence of quests or NPCs has nothing to do with which style the MMO leans towards. The amoiunt of guided content vs the number of tools does, which s why the two types are named as such.
Excellent article Izzy!
You've scored once again for mmorpg fans that have achieve a rational, realistic level of moral objectivism.
Open-minded players: 2
Close-minded players: 0
I agree, the article is full of win. A good writer.
People seem to equate Crafting and a focus on that as Sandbox, if a game has alot of building and crafting it must be sandbox, but I always thought sandbox was a game where players make the world and very few quests
In my person opinion there is only one true sandbox game out. Second life. You can create anything you can think of (within the limits of the tech). There might be another game I haven't heard about that allows for that.
The rest of these games, MO, Eve, Earthrise, SWG, etc, are themepark Sandboxes. You can only create what the devs allowed you to create. You always create the same buildings, the same armor that looks no different, weapons that really do not vary.
Excellent article; especially for a topic that really does have such a low flashpoint among the varied and totaled MMO communities. Well done. :)
Point taken regarding all the FE comments. I'll admit I included it in the list based mainly on my beta memories, when it was a great deal more raw but also had a more sandboxy feel.
I played it again last year for a couple of months and you're right, the rails are far more visible than they used to be. I expect it's difficult to avoid leaning in the theme park direction if your players/testers tell you they can't figure out what the hell to do -- one lesson being, if you're aiming to make a sandbox, you need some usable and fun TOOLS and you do need to provide a set of goals, regardless how players choose to achieve them. (Build a city, defeat the evil Empire, kill your rivals, dominate the world market on foozles -- whatever.)
Many people seem to think that everyone else should like what they like, and if another person doesn't then that means something is wrong with the other person or themselves. What's true is, there are different flavors of ice cream for a reason - we can like different things. That's not only okay, in my book it's wonderful! The creative variety we have comes in large part because of that fact.
The conflict, for me, comes when I see elements added to the game I am playiing I don't like. In those cases I think it's appropriate for me to say I don't like it, but I should remember first that the game is the creation of a team of people that I wasn't part of, and that my preference is a preference, not a universal law (except when it is, in which case I need to know the difference :D ). One thing I'm absolutely for is the devs (and the rest of the creative team) creating their vision as purely as they can; getting feedback from the players in terms of mechanics is one thing, but adding elements you don't want to just to make players happy will eventually ruin the game.
;)
Nice column/feature. Make good games, not war.
I dislike lables....alot !!!
If I enjoy a game its good, if not I move on.
One of the labels ( or many lables) I think have gotten to silly rating is the FTP, freemium, PTW,PTP etc. JUst look at the game and you will know what is required instead of having to trust a label someone has put on it.
Does anyone realy think a game or any business for that matter can survive if its totaly free???? ( well, its not 'free' because you have to buy the box) Auuuuugggg !
It isn't a sandbox game in the end. I fell for that claim as well. It's really a task/quest hub MMO.
Darkfall has not chanced much in sense of holding hands or guide you but it have chanced alot towards grind and gave new players a a shortime protection agains pkers/gankers but thats only few hours.
So far is Darkfall for most part same as launch it just made some very annoying gameplay more pleseant like chopping/mining/fishing auto instead of clicking mouse thousend times.
Or gave normal metal mines also rare ore drops witch was very good improvement for solo and small clans who dont own clancity with rare mine.
And many other nice improvements added to darkfall that make game more pleseant to play like offline skill progress ease the pain of grinding skills and prolly less players will macro now.
But i fear future becouse i hope they wont go ezmode to get more players.
Good article, but unfortunately, it's not going to change anything.
I most agree with the quote about these sub-genres catering to different playstyles, not different people. Most people can enjoy multiple playstyles, though it would seem surprising sometimes. Playing EVE and LotRO is not a crime. Or, hell, even EVE and WoW.
Off-topic, cool last name.
Sandbox is a lot more than simply being able to level by grinding as I have seen written here. Sandbox is the freedom to play the game as you want to play it.
I will use Pre Cu / NGE SWG as an example. There were people in that game that did nothing all day other than entertain the other players in the taverns or heal them in the med centres; Nothing wrong with that at all, it's what they wanted to do and got enjoyment from the interaction with others that needed their services. Some spent all their time crafting and a few became famous on their servers for the high quality gear that their dedication had made possible. Again, nothing wrong with that; they had fun doing what they wanted to do. Some people were what you could call achievers and the game catered to them as well.
I mentioned the medics earlier. Well at times when I didn't feel much like dungeon crawls or questing I would go out into the wilds and hunt the herds that roamed across the grasslands ( or deserts depending which planet I ended up on ) to gather the meat / bones etc. that those medics needed to make their stims and whatnot. At the same time I would keep an eye out for some fine examples of the local wildlife so that I could take a DNA sample back to my lab later and hopefully bioengineer a kickass pet from it, or if not a non hostile addition to someones guildhouse.
theme parks do not give you this freedom. Sure you can hang around and dance all day but you will stay at level 1 and all the people you meet will either ignore you, flame you or laugh at you; and those that don't will simply move on to a higher level zone. You can't craft all day because many of the mats you need drop from the mobs that you are forced to go and kill. Someone could collect the mats for you of course but then where do you get the money to pay for them? You go out and kill stuff. No matter what you try in a theme park it will eventually push you back on the rails and give you a kick up the ass to get you moving along them.
Sandbox games were also in general more complicated than theme parks when it came to character advancment. They made you think about where to improve and what could be ignored. Sure it was possible to completely nerf your own toon by making bad choices but hey, that was half the fun. In a theme park everyone ends up the same. Ah well, that's the nostalgia fix done with for awhile :)
here is the easiest way to tell a sandbox from a a theme park:
theme parks attempt to simulate the story driven single player RPG experience in a multiplayer setting.
sandboxs attempts to simulate a virtual world.
If your game is spending more time trying to get you to follow a story line than it does trying to get you to develop your character, it''s a good chance that you got a theme park on your hands.
Conversely, no matter how much a theatrics and NPC dialog: if at the end of that big ass cut scene your character is still treated as nothing more than a cog in the machine, your probably playing a sandbox.
Just as an example: by this mentality I actually kinda consider Guild Wars a Sandbox because no matter how much your character is treated like the center of the universe, there is still always some greater event at play and for a goodly portion of even the story mode your expected to develop your character on your own, and PVP mode is about as sandbox as you can get.
The flip side example is FFXI: sure there is a story line and quests, but for the most part partaking of them is provides little to no guidance as far as progressing through the game. The core of FFXI is to farm/craft/sell your way to getting more money so that you can spruce up your house and better gear up your character so that you can better farm/craft/sell. I'd say that 90% of FFXI's gameplay revolves around the auction house economy. I'd call that pretty sandbox.
Sandbox and Themeparks are not types of games. They are merely the labels at opposite ends of the same scale.
i really like this definition :)
That was a purdy good read :)
When I'm on the beach, I like digging for lightening shards and finding shells and seaglass, and other "maybe" valuables. I like taking in the ocean air and tasting the salt on my lips as the foamy waves wash sand between my toes, and I feel the sun on my body making me sweat.
Yet, underneath I want to know exactly where to go to get these things so I can be done with them quickly so i can get to doing other things I wanna do also. I find myself trapped in always waiting or looking for an instant fix or gratification. My mind is in a hurry but the body can't keep up.
Sorry, Bleeped out there for a minute...
I dunno, yeah, as long as I can find a way to have fun it doesn't really matter which type of mmo it is.
They need to make it easier for the common dumb folk like me to make games. Then we'll see some real progress.
Anybody can create art, not everyone can create videogames.
I'd like to point out that, as a predominately sandbox player, I found your article to be an interesting and conclusive read. I won't disagree that sandbox play is a state of mind, but the above quote scares the crap out of me (or it will when developers start using it as an example to stop making sandbox games entirely).
Lets dig a little here. SWG was not hated (Pre-NGE) for its sandbox. It was hated 1) lack of bug fixes, 2) No quest guide in understandable form, 3) Interdependance of professions.
Players hated haveing to find a Entertainer and Medic to get fixed up after death. The decay treadmill also turned off players and limited what diverse appearances that were had. Jedi Grind also robbed the gaming culture of GCW or PVP endgame development. This being said, in no way sides me with the NGE change. I just wanted the game we had fixed. However, in looking back to Pre-CU, I see the forces that drove away players before the coming of WOW.
I think there will always be "player developers" that want to create sandbox MMOGs that give the players the freedom they felt they lacked in other games. There will always be talented people with creative visions, and others who can and will fund them.
;)
I dont think themeparks and sandboxes are comparable. It is like comparing an actual Themepark, like Disney World, to an Amazon Jungle. They are just too different to compare.
One focus on immersion and virtual world other on exciting rides.
One focus on the world where as the other focus on your character, like in a single player game.
So the only big thing they have in common is the fact that they are playable online on persistent servers.
As for why themeparks are so much popular it is quite obvious. First of all you have WoW and all greedy investors want a chunk of that pie. Secondly themeparks are easier both to develop and to play. It is much easier to add a playground with a bunch of rides than trying to create a virtual world or to find your own way in a virtual world.
So a good sandbox takes more money to develop and bring in less money so naturally there are quite alot fewer of them around. Because, like it or not, when something becomes mainstream it all becomes first and foremost about money.
I am just loving your articles! I'm back-reading them because I hadn't read them before. You are definitely a gifted writer. I also enjoyed the comments following. Great ideas and lots of opinions! My style is sandbox. But since I can't find any good ones, I am drifting.....
So, what exactly is meant by a sandbox game??
If you ask me it's a game that provides little to no predefined content but a wide array of tools to make your own.
www.dark-wind.com is a prime example of what a sandbox game is.