The Free Zone: It's About Having Fun

More or less agree.  Another point is just because a game is a certain type or include a certain feature it does not automatically dictate whether it is fun or not, and this is spoken in terms of a just one person.

Players have a bad tendency to think what is true for themselves must be true for others as well whether it is good or bad.  It is understandable to think that way since as an individual we value our own opinion and empathy is not exactly something everyone learns.

Instead of putting ourselves in other's shoes, we basically make fun and play keepaway with it.  If you hate when someone for forcing their value upon you, then you can bet everyone else hate it when you do the same.

Heh, like developers are EVER going to take timesinks out of their games and concentrate on adding fun to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQNqk54HPdE <- Says it all :)

Great article.  So true in most parts.

I would specially like to point out - "However, visuals don't make a game fun. The most they can do is broaden and enhance the overall experience." 

The truth is - that in many cases - "better graphics" make for less fun gameplay. But with that beeing said.  Exploration can be fun and if there is something to explore and it can be enhanced by cool looking uniqe places then Im all for that.  But very often - the things that are cool for the first time - become very annoying in the 1000th time you do it.  So.. if visuals and graphics are directly removing the flow of the game (like with long and Frequent loading screens) then its actully reduces the fun part over time.  And fun over time is a key factor for me in MMOs.

WOW is probably the best example of a game that focuses on FUN.  They also do not create all sorts of extra graphical items in the game (like dishes and mugs and flowers and 10 forks and 20 knives and a well done pig with an apple in its mouth - all on the same table) if they are not beeing used anyway.  It still leaves the game with great immersion and alot better than in those games (LOTRO and AOC for example) where you watch a loading screen pretty much every time you enter a house - and ofc 10 times longer loading screen when you leave that house again.

I like to check how much the fun can potentially cost me.

How else would you not be playing for fun? If you're too attached to your character? If you're doing that... you're enjoying it even if it's for the sake of your character or guild, right? If I notice I'm not having fun for too long in a same game, well, I will just go play another game.

Fun is such a subjective term, yet such a strong factor, if not the strongest, in keeping a player in your game and server the next month or not.

Sorry cant support an article with a picture of Crosby in it :p

Originally posted by bobfish

Heh, like developers are EVER going to take timesinks out of their games and concentrate on adding fun to them.

Agreed.  Timesinks are the business model cornerstone upon which this genre is built, sadly.  Even if the developers wanted to make worlds instead of treadmills, the producers/executives/investors wouldn't let them.

There is a HUGE fine line between FUN and ridiculous/unrealistic ideas.The key phrase would be "common sense".

common sense tells us that one player cannot have 5 bears gnaw at his flesh and come out unscathed killing all 5,then go right back to killing 50 more in a matter of 2 minutes.

This is why people often argue/complain/discuss game mechanics or design,some people want common sense out of the game,some do not .This would be no different than trying to convince a teenager that you do not need alcohol to have fun,they are not going to listen.

Sports as used in the Hockey example are fun,not only because they are fun to play,but it is the challenge that makes them fun,this is true in pretty much all matters of fun.I don't care if you are playing checkers,you want the other guy to try and beat you,you do not want an auto win,the FUN factor is lost.There is people that find it FUN going to the racetrack to bet on the ponies,the FUN is in the challenge,they like the challenge of trying to predict the winner against the odds.Two people playing Yahtzee,it is the same thing all over again,fun yet you like the challenge.

Now of course we will always hear of people who think FUN is just winning ,even if the other guy let you win,people using common sense soon realize it is just dumb and all fun is lost once the challenge is gone.

Once you introduce dumb/unrealistic ideas in games,the FUN is lost,because those scenarios do not use common sense,no a hockey game should not be 20-20 after the first period,just because you think it would be fun to score 15 goals in a period.No a 100 lb female character should not be wielding a 200 lb steel sword like it is made of paper.No you should not die and respawn instantly like nothing ever happened,when common sense is not used,then of course you cannot see past the reasoning,of why it is not FUN.It is no different than a team mate asking me if it would be fun to take my adult hockey team and beat up on some 10 year old kids,NO it is not fun,it is as simple as common sense.

Gaming is EXACTLY the same as sports,we play them both for fun,but it is the challenge that makes it fun.

Originally posted by Wizardry

There is a HUGE fine line between FUN and ridiculous/unrealistic ideas.The key phrase would be "common sense".

common sense tells us that one player cannot have 5 bears gnaw at his flesh and come out unscathed killing all 5,then go right back to killing 50 more in a matter of 2 minutes.

This is why people often argue/complain/discuss game mechanics or design,some people want common sense out of the game,some do not .This would be no different than trying to convince a teenager that you do not need alcohol to have fun,they are not going to listen.

Sports as used in the Hockey example are fun,not only because they are fun to play,but it is the challenge that makes them fun,this is true in pretty much all matters of fun.I don't care if you are playing checkers,you want the other guy to try and beat you,you do not want an auto win,the FUN factor is lost.There is people that find it FUN going to the racetrack to bet on the ponies,the FUN is in the challenge,they like the challenge of trying to predict the winner against the odds.Two people playing Yahtzee,it is the same thing all over again,fun yet you like the challenge.

Now of course we will always hear of people who think FUN is just winning ,even if the other guy let you win,people using common sense soon realize it is just dumb and all fun is lost once the challenge is gone.

Once you introduce dumb/unrealistic ideas in games,the FUN is lost,because those scenarios do not use common sense,no a hockey game should not be 20-20 after the first period,just because you think it would be fun to score 15 goals in a period.No a 100 lb female character should not be wielding a 200 lb steel sword like it is made of paper.No you should not die and respawn instantly like nothing ever happened,when common sense is not used,then of course you cannot see past the reasoning,of why it is not FUN.It is no different than a team mate asking me if it would be fun to take my adult hockey team and beat up on some 10 year old kids,NO it is not fun,it is as simple as common sense.

Gaming is EXACTLY the same as sports,we play them both for fun,but it is the challenge that makes it fun.

As players, it can be all too easy to forget that what's enjoyable isn't the same for everyone. This can lead to thinking of one's own perceptions and preferences as absolutes. "This is great fun for me" morphs into "This is great fun." The latter is different because it's unqualified. It applies to everyone. Or should - at least that's how we think, even if only for a few fleeting moments.

You did exactly what he was talking about and applied your opinion to everyone.  I personally like oversized weapons and armor its personal preference and i understand that there are others that do not.  If i die why cant i instantly respawn at a spawn point to me what purpose does it serve to make me wait besides take time from me.  I agree that chalenges make things fun for me but thats the only point i agree with you on and it is a matter of preference.

Originally posted by Wizardry

There is a HUGE fine line between FUN and ridiculous/unrealistic ideas.The key phrase would be "common sense".

common sense tells us that one player cannot have 5 bears gnaw at his flesh and come out unscathed killing all 5,then go right back to killing 50 more in a matter of 2 minutes.

This is why people often argue/complain/discuss game mechanics or design,some people want common sense out of the game,some do not .This would be no different than trying to convince a teenager that you do not need alcohol to have fun,they are not going to listen.

Sports as used in the Hockey example are fun,not only because they are fun to play,but it is the challenge that makes them fun,this is true in pretty much all matters of fun.I don't care if you are playing checkers,you want the other guy to try and beat you,you do not want an auto win,the FUN factor is lost.There is people that find it FUN going to the racetrack to bet on the ponies,the FUN is in the challenge,they like the challenge of trying to predict the winner against the odds.Two people playing Yahtzee,it is the same thing all over again,fun yet you like the challenge.

Now of course we will always hear of people who think FUN is just winning ,even if the other guy let you win,people using common sense soon realize it is just dumb and all fun is lost once the challenge is gone.

Once you introduce dumb/unrealistic ideas in games,the FUN is lost,because those scenarios do not use common sense,no a hockey game should not be 20-20 after the first period,just because you think it would be fun to score 15 goals in a period.No a 100 lb female character should not be wielding a 200 lb steel sword like it is made of paper.No you should not die and respawn instantly like nothing ever happened,when common sense is not used,then of course you cannot see past the reasoning,of why it is not FUN.It is no different than a team mate asking me if it would be fun to take my adult hockey team and beat up on some 10 year old kids,NO it is not fun,it is as simple as common sense.

Gaming is EXACTLY the same as sports,we play them both for fun,but it is the challenge that makes it fun.

"Normal" people (like you and I) agree that games that are challenging are more fun than just winning all the time without any effort. But there are some people out there who honestly don't have fun unless they always win. They don't care if it's easy or not, so long as they win and keep winning. You could literally give them a dialog box with two buttons, one labeled "Win" and one labeled "Lose". They will happily sit there clicking on the "Win" button for hours and be happy and entertained.

Often I feel like I want to shoot these people. Not because I disagree with their concept of "fun", but because I don't want them procreating and infecting the gene pool with their obviously defective DNA.

I think, more than the graphics or any other component, what the MMO industry really needs to focus on is better engines for dynamic content generation. The more content you can generate dynamically (and the better quality that content is) the less you'll need arbitrary time sinks like taking half an hour to run from one city to the next. It may even cure some of the over-instancing that has become popular. However dynamic content alone isn't a cure-all. In addition, it would be nice to see a model for incorporating user generated content. Back in the day (1996) I remember playing a few MUDs where the admin(s) actively encouraged users to submit new content for the game. After all, there are a lot of technologically sophisticated and creative gamers in the MMORPG ranks.

LOVE seems to have some very promising ideas behind it, but the implementation is far too esoteric in it's current state to mesh with a retail title.

Focusing on "common sense" and "diversity". It's all we need In a game.

Sure thing that different tastes flows In a game, all right. There's even people that enjoys massive mindless grinding with no reason at all, just to feel the pleasure of smashing buttons all night, but a game shouldn't be made for those minority. Think on majority, and the past game for the minority If I can say that.

And F2P-wise, how are we supposed to feel the real "fun" towards It? It reminds me when a friend of mine said "Yeah but this game does have x situations wich surprass y situations". And here Is the point I asked him and I'll drop this to you all:

- Until... then?

It should always be about the fun for players but to developer it is all about it being a business.  As a player/customer if I feel I am not having that fun then I certainly will not buy another game from that developer. When developers start making fun good mmos again by all means let us know!

well to me he listed a lot of things that made me think.....why not just play an action game instead.....sit wait for HP/power, nope its not fun....but these things adds a minimum of depth in a game, and one of the most used, ok it takes longer as you lvl...but there ofc will be your favorite cook friend willing to make you some nice brews and carrot you can keep dangling infront of ppls nose otw to top lvl...to make it recover faster,  its the small things like that, that make you need other ppl in an MMO, if you dont NEED other ppl for anything but their class you have ruined the MMO - to me

there should be penalties for dieing, there should be a need for help from other ppl, or it just aint an MMO,,,,proper made am sure even the tediouse can be made fun - personally loved the spirit runs in EQ2, you had reduced stats and had to fight back for them, and actually made it an achievement to regain....and if ppl gave up go back down?  hey there were always tradeskilling to do or alts or housing to play around with sort your bags harvest....whatever you d feel like other than fighting...

alot didnt and well they removed it, like they have removed alot of other "painful" things.....SOE is very proffesional and listens way too much to the vocal part of the community imo.....MMOs aint meant to be for everyone, but the producers want them to be. which creates a load of games I think of as non MMOs that try to be action games, even if that aint the strong side of a MMO.

more "painful without a community" and actual adventure MMOs please, with loads of maintaining needed. I love the part of Darkfall that your gear breaks over time...if you should be so lucky no one took it away from you ofc ;P

Originally posted by SaintViktor

It should always be about the fun for players but to developer it is all about it being a business.  As a player/customer if I feel I am not having that fun then I certainly will not buy another game from that developer. When developers start making fun good mmos again by all means let us know!

I think this is exactly what the article is talking about. Obviously the games being created are fun for somebody otherwise the publishers/developers wouldn't be making any money. They have a financial incentive to create games that people actually want to play. Although they understandably balance the cost of developing content against the revenue it could potentially generate in order to maintain profitability (which is good for everyone because if the company folds the servers disappear).

For me present MMO's aren't fun.  For someone else they may be.  Age of Conan is probably the most fun game I've played and that even has its moments for me.  The thing I like about it is the fighting, you can hit from the left, right, center, you can block, when you run you don't have the mob following you hitting you from 10 feet away with a 5 foot sword, there aren't seeking spells and arrows that follow you.  It still has its moments of dullness though, the mobs still are lifeless without personality.  I guess I'm use to playing single player games where the mobs seem alive and I would like that in an MMO.  I'd also like non-spawning mobs.  I hate after killing a mob I can stand there for a couple minutes and it just appears in front of me.  Why not have it yell for help, or try and run to its friends, or another mob runs for help?  

Yes I know whats boring to me is fun for others and thats fine, but whats boring to me is also boring to others, when are we going to be satisfied?  Or is there more people who find these MMO's fun and not enough of people like me who want something different?  Maybe Star Wars: Old Republic or APB will change that...I hope.

I dont know if the olympics can be considered such but professional sports are not about having fun. It is big bussiness and alot of people make their living from it. So there, performance and results comes first, just like any other job, and "having fun" comes second. If you get paid for something then having fun is not your primary concern (or shouldnt be), results is.

As for MMOGs that is a whole other ballgame, as for one I doubt many people make their living from making MMOGs, so there it should be about having fun. You pay for playing MMOGs so there, naturally, if you are not having fun then why keep doing it?

However MMOGs are special, or used to be anyway, because you are supposed to share a virtual world with others so devs need to come up with ways so to not make people have fun at the expense of others.

i do agree with the article, but i think it is missing one imho important point. i would say that like 90% of all player dont play so that they have as much fun as possible, but they are playing so that they are most powerfull - especially in games with pvp or high-end raids. i know A LOT of players, who in fact dont like playing they character. they play it just because "it is strongest character for pvp" "guild needs healer/tank for the raid". i dont think that is good way to do something, which is ment to be doen for fun and to relax - playing games.

as for the more subjective point of view, apart from the fact, that i stopped going on highend pve raids when i realised, that it feels more then having 2. job then playing game for fun, i do personally think, that playing "gimped" character, or e.g. going into instance with so-so group is actually much more fun then be that strong, that you "beat the game" without more or less any problems. I had much more fun wiping from bad pulls, from healers with so bad eq, that they in the middle of the fight were out of mana, then being part of the well oiled machine, which killed anything in its path without sweating it.

the common sense camp i think are just plane wrong. A common sense game would be just like playing regular life. common sense would say stay home in a your city and let the army fight the goblin/orc/dragon/monster horde that is out side. most of us in real laugh are not taking up arms to go adventure because common sense says that is a fast way to get our selves serioulsy hurt or killed. Common sense usually tells us not to do the things that are fun. e.g. I could strap a board to my feet and go down this really big hill while its freezing cold or I could just stay inside and be warm. which would common sense tell us to do? Why would you want to play a game that ran on those rules?

In short common sense doesn't make a game more fun it only makes a game more realistic and for some I guess that is fun but for me if I'm looking for realism I look to the real world. I want something different from my games, I want them to be a diversion from the real world.

Oh and if you got mauled by 5 bears and somehow survived it would take you months or years to recover if you ever actually did. Wouldn't that be a fun game to play.

Originally posted by Benedikt

i do agree with the article, but i think it is missing one imho important point. i would say that like 90% of all player dont play so that they have as much fun as possible, but they are playing so that they are most powerfull - especially in games with pvp or high-end raids. i know A LOT of players, who in fact dont like playing they character. they play it just because "it is strongest character for pvp" "guild needs healer/tank for the raid". i dont think that is good way to do something, which is ment to be doen for fun and to relax - playing games.

as for the more subjective point of view, apart from the fact, that i stopped going on highend pve raids when i realised, that it feels more then having 2. job then playing game for fun, i do personally think, that playing "gimped" character, or e.g. going into instance with so-so group is actually much more fun then be that strong, that you "beat the game" without more or less any problems. I had much more fun wiping from bad pulls, from healers with so bad eq, that they in the middle of the fight were out of mana, then being part of the well oiled machine, which killed anything in its path without sweating it.

I agree a lot of the MMO's do seem like they're a second job, especially when you're in a guild and they make you feel like they expect you to be there to help them and if you're not on as much as the guild master likes he/she'll just drop you.  I have a couple friends that if I'm at their house they'll tell me "I have to do a raid at 4pm".  I'm like why do you have to do it, are you getting paid?  

A game that I'm paying to play better be fun to me and not feel like a chore which is why I haven't paid for an MMO in about 3 years.  When a game comes out thats actually fun, and that doesn't insult my intelligence by being like every other game but with a pretty face lift, then I'll pay.

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Originally posted by Yamota
I dont know if the olympics can be considered such but professional sports are not about having fun. It is big bussiness and alot of people make their living from it. So there, performance and results comes first, just like any other job, and "having fun" comes second. If you get paid for something then having fun is not your primary concern (or shouldnt be), results is.
As for MMOGs that is a whole other ballgame, as for one I doubt many people make their living from making MMOGs, so there it should be about having fun. You pay for playing MMOGs so there, naturally, if you are not having fun then why keep doing it?
However MMOGs are special, or used to be anyway, because you are supposed to share a virtual world with others so devs need to come up with ways so to not make people have fun at the expense of others.

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You think these athletes just do it for the money? Now that's a very cynical view on life. Yes, sure they get paid, but they don't fall into their position because they didn't think its fun. Fun encourages these people to practice and become more competitive which ultimately leads them to be the best in the first place.

It wasn't because they decided on their career choice in life after graduating from high school..."I want to make money off snowboarding because I heard it paid good or that its in high demand".

It's the same type of thing that encourages players to become better in an MMORPG because ultimately its fun or else they wouldn't be handing over their cash to the companies in the first place. The sports analogy I think is great in exemplifying this part. Maybe to some it is for the money but I highly doubt it is for most, they could of better spent their time on something else for fun considering what it takes to be the best in the world (like in the Olympics).

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

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Originally posted by Yamota
I dont know if the olympics can be considered such but professional sports are not about having fun. It is big bussiness and alot of people make their living from it. So there, performance and results comes first, just like any other job, and "having fun" comes second. If you get paid for something then having fun is not your primary concern (or shouldnt be), results is.
As for MMOGs that is a whole other ballgame, as for one I doubt many people make their living from making MMOGs, so there it should be about having fun. You pay for playing MMOGs so there, naturally, if you are not having fun then why keep doing it?
However MMOGs are special, or used to be anyway, because you are supposed to share a virtual world with others so devs need to come up with ways so to not make people have fun at the expense of others.

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You think these athletes just do it for the money? Now that's a very cynical view on life. Yes, sure they get paid, but they don't fall into their position because they didn't think its fun. Fun encourages these people to practice and become more competitive which ultimately leads them to be the best in the first place.

It wasn't because they decided on their career choice in life after graduating from high school..."I want to make money off snowboarding because I heard it paid good or that its in high demand".

It's the same type of thing that encourages players to become better in an MMORPG because ultimately its fun or else they wouldn't be handing over their cash to the companies in the first place. The sports analogy I think is great in exemplifying this part. Maybe to some it is for the money but I highly doubt it is for most, they could of better spent their time on something else for fun considering what it takes to be the best in the world (like in the Olympics).

 

I agree.  The people who play pro games are the same people who played the same sport for fun with their friends and would continue playing even if they didn't get picked up by a team.  They don't say "I hate basketball...or any sport...but I'm good at it and I won't play with anyone unless I get paid". 

Just like pro video gamers, they found they're good at what they love so they play in tournaments and get sponsors to make money.  This guy needs to talk to pro athletes and gamers and ask them if they like playing their game, or if they hate it and they're doing it just for the money.  I bet 100% of them say they love playing...sure its hard work and if they're on a team that they don't really care for their teamates for some reason or if they get traded to a team they don't really want to play for it can get tedious, but doesn't mean they don't love the game.

Marginally better column than last week's.

Of course it's about fun. Who *isn't* having the time of their life being at the Olympics? Maybe an athlete from a third world country whose dictator threatened to behead them when they return home without the gold. But lost behind the screens of our televisions, lost behind those moments of the smile, are hard times, sweat, often tears.

It's done for the love, the fun, but that doesn't mean a 'feel-good' sensation all of the time.

Investment, hardwork lead to achieving.

Clipped from the column:

" Recovery downtime happens to be one of my pet peeves. To be specific, it annoys me that as my character rises in levels, it takes longer and longer to regain full health and/or mana when they are nearly depleted. Is this supposed to be fun? It may be for others, but it's definitely not for me. In any case, it seems to be widely regarded as fine. I hope some developers out there are seriously questioning the status quo and considering alternatives, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if there are many doing so. "

It's a necessary evil Richie. There's a balance to be maintained between 'feel good' fun, and 'tough love', not to mention an appeal to the interworkings of life in general.

Every step of progress you make in life, makes achieving the goal/ a result more realistic, but each step also slows the one that will follow after it.

Go run for 30min today. Let's say you run a 10min mile. Great. Go run again tomorrow. 8min mile. Awesome! Next day? You might even rebound back from that 8min, maybe run faster, but I guarantee you your progress quickly stops being one that is graphed linearly.

Progress forward requires diminishing returns. That's what makes goals challenging. And challenge, dear columnist, is part of the ingredients in the recipe of 'fun'.

Originally posted by Wizardry

There is a HUGE fine line between FUN and ridiculous/unrealistic ideas.The key phrase would be "common sense".

common sense tells us that one player cannot have 5 bears gnaw at his flesh and come out unscathed killing all 5,then go right back to killing 50 more in a matter of 2 minutes.

This is why people often argue/complain/discuss game mechanics or design,some people want common sense out of the game,some do not .This would be no different than trying to convince a teenager that you do not need alcohol to have fun,they are not going to listen.

This is ludicrous. I used to play a fun game where I was an intalian plumber in a magical mushroom kingdom stomping on giant turtles and eating giant mushrooms! I have never, in 20 years of gaming, played a single game that can be describes as realistic. Yet I have had a lot of fun. There is no such line as you seem to imagine, there is only suspense of disbelief and that goes a long way. This has nothing what so ever to do with common sense.

 

Sports as used in the Hockey example are fun,not only because they are fun to play,but it is the challenge that makes them fun,this is true in pretty much all matters of fun.I don't care if you are playing checkers,you want the other guy to try and beat you,you do not want an auto win,the FUN factor is lost.There is people that find it FUN going to the racetrack to bet on the ponies,the FUN is in the challenge,they like the challenge of trying to predict the winner against the odds.Two people playing Yahtzee,it is the same thing all over again,fun yet you like the challenge.

 

Then you can try to explain why people find playing roulette exciting then. There are games devoid of skill, pure luck, yet some enjoy them. The enjoyment of games can not be reduced to "challenge", it is part of the fun in most games, but it is not the full picture. There are other aspects that contribute. your notion is simply too reductionistic.

 

Now of course we will always hear of people who think FUN is just winning ,even if the other guy let you win,people using common sense soon realize it is just dumb and all fun is lost once the challenge is gone.

Once you introduce dumb/unrealistic ideas in games,the FUN is lost,because those scenarios do not use common sense,no a hockey game should not be 20-20 after the first period,just because you think it would be fun to score 15 goals in a period.No a 100 lb female character should not be wielding a 200 lb steel sword like it is made of paper.No you should not die and respawn instantly like nothing ever happened,when common sense is not used,then of course you cannot see past the reasoning,of why it is not FUN.It is no different than a team mate asking me if it would be fun to take my adult hockey team and beat up on some 10 year old kids,NO it is not fun,it is as simple as common sense.

Gaming is EXACTLY the same as sports,we play them both for fun,but it is the challenge that makes it fun.

 

"You should not die and respawn as if nothing happened." Excuse me, but did you read that before trying to apply your "common sense"? Because my common sense tells me you do not respawn, at all. Never. In a game however it doesn't matter and we can respawn, how ever we like, wield massive swords and generally have a good time. Because it's a game, we can make pretentend, it doesn't have to be "real". Or what ever fantasy you concider common sense. It only has to adhere to a very limited suspense of disbelief.

Why do you insist on mixing in notions that make no sense? Fun is not the same as challenge, neither is realism. Since when was having a femal toon wield a big sword the equivalent of baeting up kids?! There is no "common sense" to is. It's allso poorly written, but I guess that comes as a bonus.

I'm sorry to say so, but this post is nonsense. the only sensible bit is that challenge is part of what makes games fun, though you messed that up too. People like the strangest things, different folks different strokes.

I agree games should be fun, and everyone has a different opinion of what is fun to them.. I think allot of players sabatoge their own fun by setting expections to high.. :)

It's all about the fun for me... Unfortunately business models and hardware costs get in the way, way to often.

I can find ways to have fun in games I wouldn't ordinarily have fun in but there is always someone there who'll always make me regret it .

I agree, I too do and will have fun playing the games I have fun playing. That's why I play them. I don't play them because you like to play them, I play them because I like to play them. And if "we" happen to like the same game...cool.

Originally posted by pojung

Marginally better column than last week's.

 

Of course it's about fun. Who *isn't* having the time of their life being at the Olympics? Maybe an athlete from a third world country whose dictator threatened to behead them when they return home without the gold. But lost behind the screens of our televisions, lost behind those moments of the smile, are hard times, sweat, often tears.

It's done for the love, the fun, but that doesn't mean a 'feel-good' sensation all of the time.

Investment, hardwork lead to achieving.

 

Clipped from the column:

" Recovery downtime happens to be one of my pet peeves. To be specific, it annoys me that as my character rises in levels, it takes longer and longer to regain full health and/or mana when they are nearly depleted. Is this supposed to be fun? It may be for others, but it's definitely not for me. In any case, it seems to be widely regarded as fine. I hope some developers out there are seriously questioning the status quo and considering alternatives, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if there are many doing so. "

 

It's a necessary evil Richie. There's a balance to be maintained between 'feel good' fun, and 'tough love', not to mention an appeal to the interworkings of life in general.

Every step of progress you make in life, makes achieving the goal/ a result more realistic, but each step also slows the one that will follow after it.

Go run for 30min today. Let's say you run a 10min mile. Great. Go run again tomorrow. 8min mile. Awesome! Next day? You might even rebound back from that 8min, maybe run faster, but I guarantee you your progress quickly stops being one that is graphed linearly.

Progress forward requires diminishing returns. That's what makes goals challenging. And challenge, dear columnist, is part of the ingredients in the recipe of 'fun'.

Indeed.

Believe it or not, no one I've ever met "enjoys" having to stop and heal. Of course they'd rather be off killing again... However, there are, typically (at least in the MMOs I've played) ways to mitigate that downtime that, unfortunately, many don't bother to look into or pursue.

1. Coming prepared... In some games, there are foods or drinks, or other items with similar function, that can regen MP or HP as you play. Have those on hand and you've reduced downtime. Buy them if you can... craft them if you must (then you can sell them to others as well).

2. Choose targets more carefully. Instead of trying to fight constantly at the peak of your capability where every fight is a "near death" experience, choose targets slightly lower in challenge where you can kill more in a row, more safely and quickly and with less down-time overall. Believe it or not (and many never seem to) you gain more xp over time the latter way than you do taking on the toughest of everything. (note: this is unless you prefer a more difficult fight and don't care about xp rate... then by all means go after the toughest enemies :p).

3. Group up! Yep.. I said it and I realize that to some it's the equivalent of asking someone to rip their own arms off and then devour them.. .but seriously... Team up with one or two other people and start a-killin'. It makes the fights go more quickly (again, depending on the difficulty of your targets), reduces down time and, hey... you've got other people around to chat with while you kill.

4. Check your gear... This should be obvious, yet I'm amazed sometimes at how inadequate some people's gear is for what they're trying to kill. Keep your gear up to date and if you see the gear you're using isn't quite cutting it... look for an upgrade, even if a minimal one; every bit helps.

That's just four examples... there's more I could think of, but time and my current level of consciousness make my head a bit foggy to think of the others.

In all... again, no one likes down-time... yet there's a surprising amount of people who cause themselves more downtime than they have to. Ever notice how some people in a MMO can seem to hunt endlessly and hardly ever have downtime, while others seem to be stopping to rest every 3rd fight? Ask the ones going non-stop what they're doing. Chances are they're far more prepared and using their head far more than the other guy.

Unfortunately, there are many who will look at those suggestions and scoff (I can say for certain because I've met and talked with them about it). They want the downtime to be reduced on their terms - namely, the developers cahnging the game to remove it completely so they can just go forever. They refuse to "be prepared" because "being prepared isn't fun". They refuse to use their heads a bit to find ways to reduce it, because they "shouldn't have to". And so forth... To those people, I always say "perhaps you're in the wrong genre".

I think the responses here highlight what Richard was getting across, fun is a personal thing.

Though no one here has said they enjoy the timesinks. :)

If we look at challenge, this can be applied to a game in a number of ways, the main one in MMOs these days is that all the challenge comes from finding the time to do something, rather than the doing something. So you need to raid the same instance 40 times for a new weapon, the challenge is doing the raid 40 times, not actually anything within the raid itself.

I don't think there is a happy medium out there, I don't think you can make a game that is fun to everyone, so when you do try to make a game that appeals to everyone, you aim at the lowest common denominator and put in bits that are fun to each group of people, hoping that those bits are enough to keep people playing through the parts they don't like. That is what mass market is all about, and that is something that WoW does pretty well.

I would, for once, like to see someone try to make an MMO that didn't attempt to appeal to that lowest common denominator, but didn't also push itself right to the other extreme, like EVE or Darkfall do.

The writer makes another kind of mistake - a logical error - when he selects a particular feature, and what people would do if they had an alternative, and concluding that therefore that feature does not belong.  Evaluating a game experience is not easy.

It's the whole experience that is fun or not --- just like in software programming --- be very careful of the side effects of making "obvious" changes to a selected feature.

Just one example.    Very popular to detest the downtime in the orignal EQ - regaining mana mainly, looking at a book!

Yet it can be argued that this kind of downtime contributed greatly to the community, and in the long run, make the overall experience more fun.    When people pop from one combat to another, do they ever interact enough to build a community?

After the POK arrived many concluded that EQ took a serious turn for the worse.  And that provided easy travel just about everywhere.

Your mileage may vary, LOL.

Originally posted by bobfish

I think the responses here highlight what Richard was getting across, fun is a personal thing.

Though no one here has said they enjoy the timesinks. :)

 

If we look at challenge, this can be applied to a game in a number of ways, the main one in MMOs these days is that all the challenge comes from finding the time to do something, rather than the doing something. So you need to raid the same instance 40 times for a new weapon, the challenge is doing the raid 40 times, not actually anything within the raid itself.

 

I don't think there is a happy medium out there, I don't think you can make a game that is fun to everyone, so when you do try to make a game that appeals to everyone, you aim at the lowest common denominator and put in bits that are fun to each group of people, hoping that those bits are enough to keep people playing through the parts they don't like. That is what mass market is all about, and that is something that WoW does pretty well.

I would, for once, like to see someone try to make an MMO that didn't attempt to appeal to that lowest common denominator, but didn't also push itself right to the other extreme, like EVE or Darkfall do.

Well when we goto a hockey game,we have to pack our gear,drive the car to the arena,gear up,pre skate.The game does not come to us,but we do it because it is fun !.No matter what form of entertainment you do it is still fun and requitres some time/cost.People are just incredibly lazy.I think the truth of the matter is people do a lot of complaining,because the game or mechanics ar really NOT fun at all,to witch i have no idea why these players are in that game playing it.This is why players complain of downtime,they are in a hurry to rush through the boring game,they are in a hurry to gain levels,these players logoff thinking that gaining a level is their satisfaction or accomplishment.Well anyone that plays a game  just to gain levels,is playing for the wrong reasons ,so they will never be happy,if the game they are playing is fun,they do not care about anything else,except maybe the players or community.

Originally posted by bamdorf

The writer makes another kind of mistake - a logical error - when he selects a particular feature, and what people would do if they had an alternative, and concluding that therefore that feature does not belong.  Evaluating a game experience is not easy.

It's the whole experience that is fun or not --- just like in software programming --- be very careful of the side effects of making "obvious" changes to a selected feature.

Just one example.    Very popular to detest the downtime in the orignal EQ - regaining mana mainly, looking at a book!

Yet it can be argued that this kind of downtime contributed greatly to the community, and in the long run, make the overall experience more fun.    When people pop from one combat to another, do they ever interact enough to build a community?

After the POK arrived many concluded that EQ took a serious turn for the worse.  And that provided easy travel just about everywhere.

Your mileage may vary, LOL.

 

I think this is a very good point. Any change will come with it's own set of bugs and side effects, some unforseen, some underestimated. It is never wise to make big changes without taking a long hard look at what you are doing. You allways run the risk of screwing something up without realising it.

As for downtime, there is a balance to be trodd between too long and too short. It's hard to nail down and might vary from game to game. I guess part of the key to it is knowing what you're going for and going trough several itterations untill it feel right; as well as listen critically to feedback from the players.

IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.

Originally posted by brostyn

IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.

I tend to disagree, unless it's strictly an item-based game. In a game like Darkfall, where PVP is the 'centric feature', you have to grind for months and months in order to compete with the best of players on a 1 on 1 basis. However, in a game like Planetside, one could simply be skilled enough from day 1 to beat a 5 month old player in a 1 on 1 fight. and Planetside was nothing but fun.
 

Originally posted by bobfish

I think the responses here highlight what Richard was getting across, fun is a personal thing.

Though no one here has said they enjoy the timesinks. :)

I enjoy some timesinks. I don't enjoy others. I simply stick to the ones I enjoy and don't bother with the others.

There... someone said it :)

Originally posted by Otach

Originally posted by brostyn

IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.

I tend to disagree, unless it's strictly an item-based game. In a game like Darkfall, where PVP is the 'centric feature', you have to grind for months and months in order to compete with the best of players on a 1 on 1 basis. However, in a game like Planetside, one could simply be skilled enough from day 1 to beat a 5 month old player in a 1 on 1 fight. and Planetside was nothing but fun.
 

Not necessarily.

There are people who enjoy the process of developing and leveling that character... even in DF. They're not in a hurry to get to end-game and are enjoying the journey. There's a few people I know of from these forums alone who play that way in DF. And hasn't it been said and explained and examples given over and over again that you don't need to grind for months to become competitive or, at least, effective in DF? I could swear I've read post after post after post detailing that very thing. At some point, depending on the player, the line is blurred and being the more skilled player at PvP can and does win the fight. That "months and months" claim has already been disproven. I think it's time to let it go.

I personally never play a MMO with the sole intention of "getting to end-game". In fact, if anything, I'm usually trying to find ways to go thorugh ti as slowly as possible... I don't *want* to be rushed through the game.

Again... it goes back to what different individuals consider fun.

Leveling a character, developing skills, gathering resources, crafting items, raiding for items, are just a few of the things people associate with time sinks.

But, none of them have to be time sinks, they can be fun, they can be interesting, they can be worth the time invested in them.

The whole problem with a time sink is that it isn't fun, it isn't the amount of time you invest in it that matters, it is how much fun you had whilst investing that time.

People will spend countless hours doing something that is fun, because it is fun, you don't need to force people to spend more time playing a game if they are enjoying what they are doing.

Originally posted by bobfish

Leveling a character, developing skills, gathering resources, crafting items, raiding for items, are just a few of the things people associate with time sinks.

 

But, none of them have to be time sinks, they can be fun, they can be interesting, they can be worth the time invested in them.

The whole problem with a time sink is that it isn't fun, it isn't the amount of time you invest in it that matters, it is how much fun you had whilst investing that time.

 

People will spend countless hours doing something that is fun, because it is fun, you don't need to force people to spend more time playing a game if they are enjoying what they are doing.

Exactly... and then that's where it comes back to personal accountability - deciding whether there's enough you enjoy about the experience to keep playing, or whether a given game's time-sinks are just too much for you to enjoy it.

At that point, the most sane decision is to acknowledge "no, I'm not enjoying this game enough to continue playing" and then move on to another game.

Problem is... people will seldom ever accept something like that and instead project it as being a failing of the game and/or its developers. It's not that the player simply chose a game that isn't well-suited to them... no no... the *developers* are idiots who obviously don't know what they're doing and screwed it up, despite the fact that 10s or 100s of thousands of others enjoy it just fine.

I could never understand that mentality.... "I don't like it, therefor it's no good and no one else should like it either". Some go as far as wanting the game to die because they don't like it and feel, somehow, "betrayed" (some have even used that word) by the company for failing to cater to what they consider fun.

And then there's the ultimate conceit and/or self-delusion (take your pick)... "I think the game sucks, and anyone who enjoys it doesn't know what a good game is"... or variations on that. Gotta love that one.

I  don't get it. I don't see people do this with other things in life. If I go to a restaurant and realize I don't like most of what's on their menu, I'm going to simply stop going to that restaurant and find one that better suits me. I'm not going to continue going there complaining about how the restaurant sucks and the cooks don't know what they're doing and need to change the menu because they fail to satisfy me, even though many others enjoy it perfectly fine.

I think some people's "despair" over a MMO would be easily "cured" by simply cancelling their sub and moving on to another if they aren't finding the current game fun for them.

But... seems many people these days love to be "the victim".

Originally posted by J.Yossarian

Originally posted by Wizardry

There is a HUGE fine line between FUN and ridiculous/unrealistic ideas.The key phrase would be "common sense".

common sense tells us that one player cannot have 5 bears gnaw at his flesh and come out unscathed killing all 5,then go right back to killing 50 more in a matter of 2 minutes.

This is why people often argue/complain/discuss game mechanics or design,some people want common sense out of the game,some do not .This would be no different than trying to convince a teenager that you do not need alcohol to have fun,they are not going to listen.

This is ludicrous. I used to play a fun game where I was an intalian plumber in a magical mushroom kingdom stomping on giant turtles and eating giant mushrooms! I have never, in 20 years of gaming, played a single game that can be describes as realistic. Yet I have had a lot of fun. There is no such line as you seem to imagine, there is only suspense of disbelief and that goes a long way. This has nothing what so ever to do with common sense.

 

Sports as used in the Hockey example are fun,not only because they are fun to play,but it is the challenge that makes them fun,this is true in pretty much all matters of fun.I don't care if you are playing checkers,you want the other guy to try and beat you,you do not want an auto win,the FUN factor is lost.There is people that find it FUN going to the racetrack to bet on the ponies,the FUN is in the challenge,they like the challenge of trying to predict the winner against the odds.Two people playing Yahtzee,it is the same thing all over again,fun yet you like the challenge.

 

Then you can try to explain why people find playing roulette exciting then. There are games devoid of skill, pure luck, yet some enjoy them. The enjoyment of games can not be reduced to "challenge", it is part of the fun in most games, but it is not the full picture. There are other aspects that contribute. your notion is simply too reductionistic.

 

Now of course we will always hear of people who think FUN is just winning ,even if the other guy let you win,people using common sense soon realize it is just dumb and all fun is lost once the challenge is gone.

Once you introduce dumb/unrealistic ideas in games,the FUN is lost,because those scenarios do not use common sense,no a hockey game should not be 20-20 after the first period,just because you think it would be fun to score 15 goals in a period.No a 100 lb female character should not be wielding a 200 lb steel sword like it is made of paper.No you should not die and respawn instantly like nothing ever happened,when common sense is not used,then of course you cannot see past the reasoning,of why it is not FUN.It is no different than a team mate asking me if it would be fun to take my adult hockey team and beat up on some 10 year old kids,NO it is not fun,it is as simple as common sense.

Gaming is EXACTLY the same as sports,we play them both for fun,but it is the challenge that makes it fun.

 

"You should not die and respawn as if nothing happened." Excuse me, but did you read that before trying to apply your "common sense"? Because my common sense tells me you do not respawn, at all. Never. In a game however it doesn't matter and we can respawn, how ever we like, wield massive swords and generally have a good time. Because it's a game, we can make pretentend, it doesn't have to be "real". Or what ever fantasy you concider common sense. It only has to adhere to a very limited suspense of disbelief.

Why do you insist on mixing in notions that make no sense? Fun is not the same as challenge, neither is realism. Since when was having a femal toon wield a big sword the equivalent of baeting up kids?! There is no "common sense" to is. It's allso poorly written, but I guess that comes as a bonus.

I'm sorry to say so, but this post is nonsense. the only sensible bit is that challenge is part of what makes games fun, though you messed that up too. People like the strangest things, different folks different strokes.

These two posts made me laugh.

My question to Wizardry: Why is watching the hockey game fun? There is certainly no challenge in planting your butt into a sofa (usually :) ).

And to the article: I wonder if the author of this article, or most people for that matter, realize that the Silver/Gold medal for Hockey was basically just finishing the ritual of deciding who gets gold and silver?

If you look at the players, the Canadian team was mostly made up of American players.

Regardless, fun is subjective. Highly so. I've had plenty of fun traveling before because it gave me time to plan my next progression and make some headway in my battle against my inventory. A pretty game can be fun as well. Graphics detail and gameplay don't always have to have an inverse correlation.

The key to FUN is that developers of a game have to target and scope in the type of FUN they want in the game and the demographic that enjoys that FUN. All you can do is find out who is targetting your FUN and play those games. Not all games are meant for everyone and if you dont find it enjoyable, play a different game.