Jon Wood: Your Sex: Prove It or Lose It!
This week, MMORPG.com's Jon Wood takes a shot at a recent decision by a Chinese MMO company to ban all male players who choose to play female avatars.
Column By Jon Wood on October 29, 2009
Every now and then, something hits the news that is just so bone-jarringly stupid that it makes me want to regress back to the days before instant communication around the world was at our fingertips so that I wouldn't have to be bothered by the complete inanity that's happening halfway around the world. I'd only have to worry about the inanity going on next door, and frankly I could live with that. I could have always drawn comfort in the idea that surely in other parts of the world, people are not this colossally stupid.
Alas, the Pandora's Box of idiocy known as the internet simply can not be closed and I have to suffer in the knowledge that people everywhere are equally as stupid as here.
What brought on this fit of global rage? A seemingly harmless news item published at Gamepolitics.com informing the world that a company in China is requiring players of one of its games to prove their real life sex before making their characters. No, I'm wrong actually, this insane policy only applies to people choosing to create a female character. Women, it appears, are free to pose as men as much as their little hearts desire.
I've heard the arguments of some gamers against the idea of people playing toons of the opposite gender. They range anywhere from such well thought out responses as: "If u play as gurl you must be ghey," and "U must like guys wanting to do you." To total indifference like, "Who cares what sex they are?"
;)
We'll have none of this.
If you're in the first category, I honestly don't know what to say. I'm going to suggest that you're not going to like this article so maybe you should go outside and bounce a ball or something.
To the second category people, I would once have gladly answered: "no one who matters could possibly care what sex your toon is. That's completely absurd." Apparently though, I now have to answer that apparently Aurora Technology, a subsidiary of Shanda, cares. They care deeply.
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Are you frigging kidding me? First of all, assuming the people do follow this rule, the company is going to have had to actually pay someone to sift through these, "proof of gender" submissions. I sure hope that game is complete and without any bugs because otherwise some developer's time is being wasted in the most frivolous way possible.
Second, as quoted above, the story on JLM Pacific Epoch specifically states that players wishing to play a female character will have to provide proof of their "biological sex." What exactly constitutes proof in this case? I'll start by saying that I have no idea how they actually plan on verifying this, but if you're talking about proof of "biological sex," I mean, a regular picture can't do it. I've seen some pretty effeminate looking dudes out there. Also, what's to stop some guy from sending in a picture of his sister, or girlfriend, or chick he's stalking? Nothing. So, with that in mind, am I the only one out there who thinks this is just Shanda's way of saying, "Show us your bewbs!" Actually, now that I think about it, boobs don't actually go to proving biological sex either, so they're actually asking for webcam proof that you're not porting around some kind of downstairs mixup.
You thought kids "playing doctor" was a weird way for curious kids to get into trouble, wait until they start playing games of "pervy game developer." It's pretty much the same thing, but one involves a webcam.
Seriously though, I can't think of any reason, other than the personal insecurity in their own sexuality of whoever implemented this policy, that makes it make sense to me.
;)
Dr. Frankenfurter says:
Stop the madness.
I realize that someone out there is going to be helpful and remind me that Western culture and Chinese culture are two very different things. Not knowing much about Chinese culture, this could all be par for the course and acceptable there.
The thing is though, that while this policy only applies to Aurora's in-house developed MMO King of the World, its parent company, Shanda, does a lot of business with companies that rely heavily on the western market. As the Chinese publishers of games like Aion and US produced Dungeons and Dragons Online, there is serious potential here for a PR nightmare for the licensing companies (in this case, NCsoft and Turbine).
Now, I always like to follow up a good, long tirade about sexual identity up with a little bit of cold, hard logic. We're talking about a freaking role playing game here. I mean, I'm allowed to ponce around the woods pretending I'm some kind of wizard or knight, whacking at things with my sword or wand. No one seems to have any issue with this concept. Nobody has any issue with me pretending to be any ridiculous thing that I like so long as that ridiculous things doesn't have curves and boobies? Shenanigans! I call shenanigans on this foolishness.
Whatever your own personal politics might be about homosexual rights, cross dressing, transgendered persons or a host of other topics, I hope that we can all agree that taking these steps in a role-playing game is unnecessary and a little bit absurd. We're not talking about real life here, we're talking about a game. What's next? Am I going to have to prove that I'm short and fat in order to play a Halfling? Give me a break.
More Jon Wood Features:
More Columns:
More Features:
So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault. Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues. Guys have been playing female toons like forever. Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider? Thought so. Nobody thought anything of that did they. So why make a big deal out of this. If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them. All this article is is sensationalism. Come on...this is not worthy of an article. This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up. ::sigh::
I'd think about going back to WoW if Blizzard implemented this.
Great article / rant. that company totaly deserves every bump on the road they might travel on. Its ridiculous.
i like the idea. people could finally cybersex with each other without a risk tat there is a guy on the other side
So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault.
Did you even read the article. He was clearly just saying there not making you submit a proof of gender if you make a male charecter, he was in no way "raging" on the female gamers.
I can see the company's side of things....Hey guys, look. We have real girls in our game. It's a great advertising move, if they can entice the girls to actually play. On the hand, doesn't it take the RPG out of MMORPG. Playing in a world as someone different from yourself. I play online games to get away from reality, and create characters in an online word. (I love using the biography that some games offer) It's a lot like creating a character in a book, except the world has already been made for you. Just my take on things...Again, I can see the company's point of view, even if I disagree with it.
I forget where I read it, either here or massively. But in Asian countries MMOs exist also as a means of social networking/dating (at least thats the idea), like facebook or myspace here. Because of that I believe companies are afraid of their clients becoming disillusioned that the hot elf chick they are hitting on is actually another guy. They want the female characters to be played by actual females so the male clients, the vast majority of their clients I assume, have someone to hit on in game, diluting themselvs to think they will actually get dates.
Im not justifying it, never, I dont play a female character, but my gf plays male characters sometimes because she is actually a role player.
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
Agreed... unless they want to turn their game in some kind of virtual dating-safe game, then yeah there should be some ways to make sure the gender is correct.
But then it would no longer be simply a MMORPG, this decision is simply insane for the current (Western) reality, maybe all these movements like being gay, homo or whatever aren't tolerated in China.
I think from all the post so far the above comment probably came closest to the reason behind this strange move of the company.
It is less about gender politics and more about "Internet safety", in a very weird way of course. Remember the gender ratio in China is very unbalanced. There are millions of men who will never find a woman because of the one kid policy and the resulting illegal abortions of female embryos.
Now, posing as a woman on the Internet may open up some profitable illegal avenues for ppl who focus on young single Chinese men who are eager to meet a girl to date or marry.
With this in mind, it makes sense that a company demands proof of gender in order to prevent illegal activities like the one above.
It is interesting and sad what this tells us about society in China, and even more depressing what this tells us about the gullibility and desperation of some ppl. I think this is a rather China specific issue. Once it starts spreading to the West, I will agree with Jon that we are moving into dangerous directions.
This article is about MMOs and MMO gaming only! If you really want to meet someone and have intimate conversations over the internet, then how about using a social networking site such as Facebook or Match.com? The point of playing the games aren't to arouse your sexual nature and get a hard on over fonts and animated pixels. Try enjoying the game for what it is meant to be.
As for the article, it is propostrous to enforce such an idea. Hopefully, the western studios won't start this nonsense. Shouldn't matter what gender you are playing. It's only a cosmetic appeal. I for one usually make Female characters on all MMOs I play. I am a straight guy (although I can be a little flamboyant at times), but I like seeing how people react. It's interesting to see negative comments such as those listed, but I can usually hit them with a quick, witty comeback. Although, I rarely get that a lot because many people are perfectly content with the idea.
I honestly don't see what the big ruckus is all about. It's a retarded policy, and people can simply choose not to use that companies product. Most people just don't care enough about what sex players are IRL to agree to the hassle of verifying theirs with a webcam.
Boggles the mind, file the gender identity concept along with the “criminal behavior due to playing games” theory. The thought of being able to enforce such a policy alone brings visions of money and legal problems galore. Nevertheless, I am forced to ask who has a right to tell this company how to operate its business. If the company wants to conduct such practices, then by all means…do so. It will only provide entertainment to me. Sort of like the “We Just say “NO’ to drugs” policy implemented in America at one time, My only concern here is that a group of people become “qualified” to tell this company how to operate. Why? Because if the elected, designated and allocated said group becomes that powerful they may change their minds and decide that it is a good policy. That is say, who am I to tell any company how to set their path, to take this point one step further, I hope there never becomes such a “game police” that is able to tell any gaming company how to operate. The silly policies of the Western countries certainly would back-up such a concept.
I'd like to see a 'game police' which forces companies to deliver what they promise.
Jon, thank you this made my day. This is the most hilarious thing I've seen a mmo company do in ages. Being a female gamer, I have endured lots of "vent or you're not really a girl" but ..yeah..oh my. I just have to wonder what led to this..somehow I envision a very angry developer after a first meeting with an online love..
I'd like to see a 'game police' which forces companies to deliver what they promise.
I agree with you on that one, except that they can not even do that let alone proof of sexual identity. Funny how culture sets in with gaming huh? Oh NO, a United Nations Gaming Police possibility, don’t give em any ideas. lol
Next up, players cant play muscle-bound warriors unless they prove they're not fat.
Also, unless you can actually cast magic spells, don't even think of rolling a mage.
Unless they are going to have to do a visual confirmation everytime someone logs on, then it wont make the slightest bit of difference.
Either they will persuad someone they know to pretend to be them for a few minutes while some guy in china jacks off while looking at them on the webcame (I mean damn, how many of you have mothers, or sisters?)
or, you will have some guy in china jacking off to a man in a wig wearing a lot of makeup pretending to be a girl....
either way its a bit pathetic and unless they do it everytime you log in, it wont solve the problem. How about they make the female characters so butt ugly that the male characters are more femanine?
You never get a bloke pretending to be a girl when they are playing a female dwarf in wow do ya?
See the bad part is I kinda like them doing that but I think they did it wrong, I think they should have required proof they were of age to play when they made their characters. I don't mind so much the gender bending in games these days, I do mind the 9 year olds and their annoying habbits that make you want to kill them, and then when you pk their toon they run to mommy and daddy and cry getting the game company in trouble.
That is so wrong. I think it just highlights how sick and damaged Chinese society really is.
Yes, anti-discrimination laws are sooooo silly.
I'm sorry where is my "white-only toilet" again? I need someplace to file your post.
Yes, anti-discrimination laws are sooooo silly.
I'm sorry where is my "white-only toilet" again? I need someplace to file your post.
File it along with the "We just say no to drugs" box. This is a company that is Not in America and who are you to depict how they operate?
File it along with the "We just say no to drugs" box. This is a company that is Not in America and who are you to depict how they operate?
"Just Say No" was a public service campaign aimed at getting kids to not take illegal drugs... it has absolutely nothing in common with discriminatory business practices.
I am not depicting how they operate - I am poking fun at the arrogance and ignorance inherent in your post.
As for the topic at hand... this is China, a socialist country that curtails personal freedoms already. Unless someone can convince the Politiburo that this is an issue, then we are all just "Whistling Dixie".
"What's next? Am I going to have to prove that I'm short and fat in order to play a Halfling?"
At least I could do that ;)
Why on earth would a company do this, not as if there would be loads of free publicity about their crappy game.
... Oh wait. Nevermind
File it along with the "We just say no to drugs" box. This is a company that is Not in America and who are you to depict how they operate?
"Just Say No" was a public service campaign aimed at getting kids to not take illegal drugs... it has absolutely nothing in common with discriminatory business practices.
I am not depicting how they operate - I am poking fun at the arrogance and ignorance inherent in your post.
As for the topic at hand... this is China, a socialist country that curtails personal freedoms already. Unless someone can convince the Politiburo that this is an issue, then we are all just "Whistling Dixie".
I concur, we are all just Whistling Dixie however, as I stated the Just Say No campaign reminds me of this mind boggling practice, I see this as to concepts with equal results and join you in poking fun at the arrogance it displays. Which seems equally arrgant of a political party.
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
I'm not disagreeing with the authors point-of-view, and I'd go as far to say that most western gamers will probably share the same view, because that's the way we've been enculturated. However, as the author said, he does not know Chinese culture, so his views are biased towards western culture. He doesn't know how Chinese people are enculturated. This may be a god send over there.
So I challenge the reviewer to do some research, walk a mile in their shoes, and then write a counter argument to this article. I think it'd be insightful and interesting. Again, I'm not saying I disagree with this article, but the media is so biased and only reports part of the truth, and that truth is usually spinned to make one person or group look awefully good, and the other awefully bad. I'm interested in WHY a company has fealt the need to know the identity of a persons gender.
I play a female gnome in eq2 cause I thought they look funny and I'm male irl, tbh I just don't see the problem. Idiots are always going to be idiots no matter what sex character they are made to play. FFS whats the world coming to, I'm sure i don't know.
Hrmm it could spawn a whole new gold making venture though.. "For 19.99 one of our girls will pass your gender identity test. Paypal only".
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
"You've made your decision, now let's see you enforce it" - Andrew Jackson
- not a fan of King Andrew BTW - but the quote works here.
Jon,
Your opinion is based upon a Western perspective. Everyone in the world does not share the same perspectives, values (or lack of values) as those of the West.
I'd much rather read your commentary about this subject if it included an interview with the studio's management or shed some light upon the difference between the Eastern and Western customer.
You might even interview someone that knows the Chinese culture to gain some insight.
As silly as enforced gender is in a GAME, it's a junk topic. Game companies in China have been doing this for years, it's OLD news that someone decided to gussy up and recycle, probably as propaganda or just to incite riots.
www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php
current.com/items/77466131_chinese-online-role-playing-game-bans-transexual-players.htm
arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2007/09/chinese-mmorpg-banning-cross-gender-roleplayers.ars
All this crap from 2007, news at it's finest. I get so tired of dead crap being dredged up. A necroed issue; someone call a cleric to smite it.
It's true this stupidity from China has been around for a while. Heck, the very same company in the article, Shanda/Aurora, has been trying to do this for TWO years
www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/
But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve discussing. A bad analogy (but with a China connection) would be that China has been occupying Tibet for quite some time, but that's no reason to start ignoring it.
These bozos have clearly been failing miserably in their attempts over the last two years to enforce this moronic idea and the webcam idea is just the latest from the lobotomized idiots in change of Shanda. It deserves to be in the news so it can receive the international mockery it deserves.
Watch the company get fed up and ask for assistance from the government and China start chipping people like we chip our dogs so when ever you login to the game, you have to scan your chip to prove your gender.
What I can see about Teala's objection is, a straight out bash on this kind of news may seem obvious. (Other than that, she seems to misrepresent Jon's point.)
The thing is... you have to do the obvious now and then, so that things don't get ridiculous.
The world, in its newfound global glory, is truly infectious now, and the proverbial butterfly has much more effect than perhaps you'd imagine. First, MMO companies work across borders now... Also, thinking that the MMO playerbase is international... Who knows? We may see some kind of spillage, in time.
Better react properly and be obvious than not at all. ;)
It's true this stupidity from China has been around for a while. Heck, the very same company in the article, Shanda/Aurora, has been trying to do this for TWO years
www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/
But that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve discussing. A bad analogy (but with a China connection) would be that China has been occupying Tibet for quite some time, but that's no reason to start ignoring it.
These bozos have clearly been failing miserably in their attempts over the last two years to enforce this moronic idea and the webcam idea is just the latest from the lobotomized idiots in change of Shanda. It deserves to be in the news so it can receive the international mockery it deserves.
Talking about something is only good if something positive can come out of it. We can't do anything about it so it's not doing anything good. I don't get why everyone has the desperate need to fight with each other; that's all this is about.
As for the webcam bit, they were using it back then, too; that's how I recognized it.
I don't post on here at all, but I read alot of the articles. This is literally the best piece I've ever read on here. Bravo dude. Bravo. There's a ton of sexual insecurity in people who thrive on gender politics. Anyone who is concerned that "the person at the other end might be a guy" should probably abstain from hitting on a digital avatar in the first place.
p.s.: I'm pretty sure an 'editorial' implies a bias (cultural or otherwise). But no matter how you spin the "subjectivity" of the author, discrimination remains discrimination, weather it's socially accepted or not.
To all those who say that the writer is ignorant of Chinese culture in his article, what is it in Chinese culture that makes this decision more acceptable than it would be in the States or elsewhere? Just saying the author doesn't undertand the culture, therefore his article is irrelevant, without referencing why that is the case is simply playing Devil's Advocate.
I think people are also forgetting one issue with forcing players to play their genders. That is scammers.
When the player base thinks people are playing the appropriate gender it opens up the possibility for dating scams. Think,"Send me xxx cash so I can meet you in person." type scams as an example.
Im actually kinda suprised. China seems to be very puritanical when it comes to things like nudity, especially on the internet (the great green firewall and such). It suprises me that companies could get away with, what we only assume, would be getting women to undress on webcams to prove they are female. It does make me think this policy would be impossible to enforce without referencing some kind of national id cards, which they may have, rather than getting people to prove their 'biological gender' on camera.
Why? Are you one of those people who hit on toons based their genders? Poor Taurens, no one ever flirts with their women.
I just had a thought. Does the likeliness of prostitution rings in an MMO increase if the player base plays RL genders?
What I mean is setting up a meeting for it in RL through the game.
Isn't it easier just to assume that the only people playing are men, and that all female toons you see are creepy weirdos?
That's what I do.
This wasn't an interview and it wasn't a research article. It was a commentary from a western perspective, a fact that i was VERY clear about in the body of the article itself.
If I was writing an article about the differences between Eastern and Western gamers, and gamer culture, then fine. I wasn't. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, it's just not what this column was about.
People already commit dating scams without posing as the other gender and IRL., this doesn't open anything that wasn't already there. And gender, in the way of scams, is pretty irrelevant; I've seen both sides get duped.
I dont really understand this, women can scam just as well as any man. Somone playing a male character could also say they are female, they just dont want to go through the hassel of proving it to play one. It wouldnt really do anything to stop it. Also anyone stupid enough to agree to something like that deserves to get scammed.
I agree, it is game for Petes sake. If someone wants to be a different person there, go ahead. Will they protest if you are small and weak IRL and play a barbarian too?
Yes, it is slightly creepy with poeple pretending to be someone else and having cybersex but the issue of who the people you play with actually is happens only to people trying to pick up people in the game.
I don't care what sex my guildies are, not IRL and not in the game. I will not treat them differently (well, in a RP thing my knight will be more polite to ladies than men). I don't care what religion, sexual perferance or nationality they have either.
I BTW know a lady that always play guys because she say that she doesn't like how some people treat ladies in the games.
Just for the theory: as a gay gamer it NEVER occured to me to play a female char. So much for this.
As to the topic per se - I think it is our strange days of twisted politcal correctness and a twist of some societies to be at odds with sexuality. That Asia is not a very liberal region (sorry, but with all that Confucianism it is IS a fact) is quite known. From personal experience I have seen that the entire topic of sex and gender is something very American. And I am not sorry for saying it. I mean, can you imagine USA has an open gay Foreign Minister? Well, get used to our Mr. Westerwelle. It may sound like an odd reference to you, but IMVPO those things are VERY related. I can't imagine people from France, Sweden, Germany or Swiss having such widespread debates about sex and gender in games.
I just read Bioware's new RPG "Dragon Age" is going to have gay sex as option, and right away where that news was written people wrote they won't buy the game now. I bet my meager fortunes it were Americans. (Sidenote: just to make sure, Americans did things better also, but in every term of gender and sex America is stuck in 1850 moral. Just my 2 Euros. ;) )
Meh, people who say they wont buy dragon age for that reason probally wouldnt have bought it anyway. If I didnt respect Bioware as much as I do I actually wouldnt be suprised if it was a publicity stunt to drum up controversy around the game. EA did that with Dante's inferno (well one of EA's publicity contractors), they paid a bunch of people to pretend to protest the game outside of E3 because the game was about Hell and it was offensive to christians.
I think people have a hard time discerning the difference between an article and an opinion piece. Opinion related articles sometimes mistakenly referred to as op-eds. Are all about sensationalism that is the point, to rant about a given subject that infuriates the author/journalist.
I dont really understand this, women can scam just as well as any man. Somone playing a male character could also say they are female, they just dont want to go through the hassel of proving it to play one. It wouldnt really do anything to stop it. Also anyone stupid enough to agree to something like that deserves to get scammed.
It's a complacency issue. If everyone played their gender. The average person would get complacent in this fact and some would fall victim to these type of scam more often than if it was a grab bag of "You never who is playing who, so pretend their all guys."
Next thing you know they will start asking people who play muscular, athletic good looking characters to provide proof. I mean...we wouldn't want some ugly person playing an attractive character, or some fat guy playing a muscular toon. That would be false representation right? Or some short guy playing a tall toon.
Basically what is going on here are some very, very horny game developers who probably haven't had sex in a very, very long time. If they are asking for people to send in pictures of their genitals I think they shoud be investigated, ESPECIALLY if the gamers are minors. Sounds like pediphelia central over there.
Very good article Jon, I agree with it 100%.
Good article. Jon managed to make a good point about the pitfalls gender verification could bring us to...
As for Chinese culture, which one? China is not only a multicultural nation with a wide range of diversity and views on gender roles, but its recent history has brought about many cultural changes and upheavals. The Chinese had to endure a "cultural" revolution which destroyed a large part of their heritage and the government in power is a nominally secularist one, meaning that people are suposed to not only have the liberty to base their views on morality in humanist or scientific principles, but based on the ideological premises of Communism should be discouraged from deistic conceptions. Yes, the evolution of Chinese mores is a unique construct and in many ways independent of the development of analogous systems in the west (the former Soviet Union, eastern Europe, Cuba) and it could be argued that Maoism was, at least through some stages, somewhat more tolerant of traditional belief systems.
However, just as in the West, the position of many conservatives has become radicalized as a result of culture shock with the global phenomenon of pop culture introducing liberal values. This culture shock has become accentuated by many of the unique circumstances in China, a previous poster mentioned the one child policy, which has led to a very dynamic and complex cultural landscape.
1. Trying to refer to a baseline core belief scheme is as useless as trying to argue we could find one in western society, even our conservatives no longer adhere to the strict code of victorian era values so prevalent in the 19th century, and the view of China as a monolithic "backward" society is as wrong as it is unfair.
2. Internet users and specifically gamers, could be considered somewhat separate from the rest of population in that they mantain some distinct attitudes. The willingness for confrontational discussion could be considered an example of such.
3. Gender roles are somewhat more fluid in MMOs, perhaps precissely because of unsubstantial expectations regarding actual physical interaction. Netiquette conventions have surfaced precissely to deal with this phenomena.
As a conclussion i would say that this often refered to cultural distinction may not be as significant a factor as considered by some. I would pose that the internet has created its own set of behavioural norms and that these would far more influence the attitudes of gamers. This is not to say someones cultural background becomes irrelevant on the internet.
If the boom on internet dating in China has spilled into MMOs we should be wary of the consequences this may bring for future game management/development. Its not just the possibility of abuse through the use of webcams. Recent scandals in China have involved women marrying men to later elope with the dowries. Why not verify the women are indeed single if the system is being used for dating? or their background? or if theyre young or pretty? This is a slippery slope that could one day lead to more severe privacy concerns or even pornography and prostitution becoming a part of our games. And while i personally have no objections to this activities (consensual acts amongst adults are no one elses concern) i would hate to see them associated with MMOs, specially being that we are already a target of some groups decrying the dangers of violence in videogames and "internet addiction".
Well as a straight gamer I can say that noone cares about your sexual oreintation so get over yourself.
Love being able to know that I'm not being gay. Great work.
"Well as a straight gamer I can say that noone cares about your sexual oreintation so get over yourself."
As another 'straight' gamer, I hate to think you represent my orientation. And if dude wants to discuss these issues from his perspective, you don't need to agree with him, but you have zero right to speak for me or to dismiss him.
Very interesting
and I'm straight and I have a female toon specifically because its a Blood Elf on WoW and the males look really effeminate, so I figured I might as well have a chick toon. Oh, and I like to undress my Tauren Female and say naughty things to her.
What this basically boils down to is this for the future of MMO's...
The next Star Wars MMO
The DDO update
The next Cyberpunk MMO
But as OP stated... Tits are not guarantee of sexual confirmation. I can see it already...
"Hey... mom? I wanna play a female character but they need sexual confirmation... can I borrow your vagina for a few minutes? No, it has to be on the webcam! They need proof!"
That is when I tag the developer with a taser and claim it was magic.
If he argues with me, I tag him with a second "lighning bolt".
That is when I tag the developer with a taser and claim it was magic.
If he argues with me, I tag him with a second "lighning bolt".
That's almost as hot as Tauren females.
What problem? Does the company trying to do this even say why?
How about they make the female characters so butt ugly that the male characters are more femanine?
Have you played a male character in Aion?
;)
You're talking about text stimulation. ASCII characters don't have genders. It really makes no difference who is on the other end. Free your mind the rest will follow bubba.
Elikal most people can't differentiate between cross dressers, Gays, and transgenders. Their loss I suppose.
Amazing way for the Chinese companies to discourange female gaming. Or am I looking at this wrong - maybe they just need a new revenue stream and decided to collect a bunch of web cam streams and sell them. End result will be a world of all male characters, and parents better make sure that little girls understand never to go near a web cam.
I'm assuming of course that proof well be provided by Web Cam - if they go by blood tests or some other medical exam they will probably want to consult with the IOC.
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
Why? Are you one of those people who hit on toons based their genders? Poor Taurens, no one ever flirts with their women.
Unless you are a furry...
I never understood guys wanting to play female characters more than I understand crossdressing guys so for me I could not care less if there is a policy that says you cannot play female chars if you are male but also vice versa. So it is a bit weird that it only applies to crossdressing males but not crossdressing females.
But other than that, in sports you have female participants and male participants and even in video game tournaments they often have a division for females and one for males so really what is the problem?
I for one would want to know if the guy/girl I am speaking to in a virtual world is actually a guy/girl. As very few people actually roleplay then saying that you are roleplaying a women (when you are a guy) really does not apply.
So for me, good policy. Will be hard to enforce though...
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
Why is it outrageous? Many things in life ask you to specify your gender, be it applying for a job or play amateure football. Why would a competetive video game be any different?
It is not politically correct but I dont see what is so outrageous about it.
It does not say that male, female, gay, straight, black, white cannot play. They simply say dont misrepresent/hide your true gender.
This post has hit the nail on he head. The article was written from a purely WESTERN perspective and as such could be seen by people of another culture as being rather biggoted.
Who are we to tell other countries how they should conduct themselves socially...and like it or not MMO's are a Scoial Network as well as a form of entertainment. The demographics of the game in question were never mentioned. If it is young single people looking to meet others online...then assuring the target group that the "female" they meet every night is actually a "female" could be a HUGE selling point.
With such certainty, the few females actually playing the game will be hounded relentlessly - resulting in no female characters in the game at all, as female players will either play males, or leave the game entirely.
Excactly. In many cultures, pretending to be male when you are female or vice versa is considered deceptive.
Your post contains some very objective points and it is always good to try to see things from the other side. However, for publicity sake, you don't really need to restrict females characters to being played by females in the game to actually show that hawt chix0rs play your games. Look at 'real pic' sites like the CoH faces site (http://faces.cohtitan.com/).This site supposedly shows pics of real life females that play City of Heroes. Though, truly? it would be SERIOUSLY easy to fake - use either your girlfriend's pictures, or, unscrupulous people might have done, steal someone's pictures off the internet.
I remember a person in another MMO game who did exactly that, stealing some 'sample' pictures (which of course were slightly...suggestive) from some girl who had a pay-to-view site. This person was rumored to have been an older woman of large size. She preyed on male players, befriending them and then sending the pictures to get them to pay attention to her to the point of even extracting gifts of money, etc. from them. Caveat gamer, so they say. :P
A smart player who wanted to keep their female avatar could just have their girlfriend/sister/female friend, sit in for the webcam shot for them. Really, unless there is a live interrogation, (and even then, you could fake that) it would not be hard to fool.
That being said, I agree that this sounds insane by American standards, but their society probably has different morals and perhaps they feel pretending to be female equates to what we would consider cross dressing here.
As a writer, I 'create' male and female characters in my stories. Does that make me butch? Nope. I am all girl. Just because I have written a male into a story (or created some in an MMORPG) does not indicate nor affect my sexual orientation in any way. My gaming partner has a slew of female characters. He RPs them so well that my sister thought he was a real-life female for a long time before I let the cat out of the bag. But trust me, I can vouch that he's not transgendered or gay. Hehehe. I feel playing other characters is more a creative thing but then if you are RP'ing for *cough* other reasons, I suppose gender would really matter. How would you feel if you had some TRULY hot cyber only to find out that curvy little elf was really a burly, hairy, tattooed biker named Duke? *giggle*
With such certainty, the few females actually playing the game will be hounded relentlessly - resulting in no female characters in the game at all, as female players will either play males, or leave the game entirely.
There are rules of conduct for being "hounded relentlessly". Besides, I think most males are civilized enough not to do that and if they are not they deserved to be banned.
Well it is China after all
I agree Jon! What is next? Is the company going to have you on webcam each time you login and if they question your gender ask you to well.... bend over and "smile" for the camera to prove you are female? I mean seriously. That company is just nuts.
Well that might not be a bad idea..After all anything can happen in China..hehehe
After the article, I haven't read more than the first couple of posts and I doubt anyone will actually read this one, but add me to the group of people who think...
ONE OFTHE MOST IGNORANT THINGSI'VE EVER HEARD OF IN GAMING HISTORY!It’s not about bigotry, it about stupidity! Legitimizing other people stupidity is never a good idea. It has nothing to do with sexuality or race, and everything to do with a corporation run by idiots. Only idiots would suggest such a thing and trying to understand it only adds credence to their stupidity.
There are rules of conduct for being "hounded relentlessly". Besides, I think most males are civilized enough not to do that and if they are not they deserved to be banned.
You put too much faith in the Internet. The point is that a lot of women playing aren't looking for a date, or hoping to be spammed up by foaming, weeaboo, nerd #69883. If a female player wants you to know she is a female she'll tell you otherwise it is really none of your damn business who is behind the keyboard.
WOW. does anyone know who is in the first picture lol I was surprised because I didn't think mighty boosh ever became a hit or even played in america. hell half people here in england haven;t heard of it.
So here is the answer. Make one big company that makes an avatar version of the real world you that you can then import into any MMORPG that is on the market and use it there. Then you will be the verified YOU that you really are and you can't possibly trick anyone into believing you are really an Elf, Orc, male, female, cat, toad or vampiric lobster of death. You will get to play as YOU and know that anyone else you meet is what they are portrayed as! *gasp* How great to utterly destroy the fabric of roleplaying all in the name of making sure people who are completely sexually insecure feel safe :P
You can't counter feminist hysteria with logical arguments.
Oh lord... You are SO going to get Pwned for that
But nice troll...
I hate to point this out, but just about *all* human societies have their seriously warped and demented aspects...
Well it is China after all
Do you realize that a lot of child prostitution rings are run out of the US? These kids, especially females, are either kidnapped or sold and then smuggled into the US to fuel prostitution ring on the North American continent.
If I may point out, I don't even think it's the inequality behind it that Jon found sick, it was what they required for proof: webcam appearance. Any feminine guy can dress as a girl, so what proof would they demand? I think he's disgusted by the fact that they may require a shot of sexual organs as evidence for gender. On top of that, any guy can ask his sister or girlfriend to fill in as their "proof" rendering the entire system pointless for practical purposes. And since only females are required to do this, the real motive behind this system should be critically questioned.
Really? Men creating female characters makes you that uncomfortable? This is not Blizzard's issue, it's yours.
Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses.
I can't imagine such levels of sexual insecurity *shudders*
It must make your life really tough. The point of most MMOs is some time to escape and have fun it is not a dating service. What race, gender, religion or any other facet of who someone is in reality has absolutely nothing to do with what character they choose to play, period.
They could just implement a policy that the first toon you make is what your gender will be for the lifetime of the account.
I think even male players who do enjoy playing female toons would still like to play thier own gender once in awhile.
It would kinda guide people into a real choice (ie: sex change)Rather hard to undo a gender change.
Just somthing to think about...
Being a Chinese female who games and has lived in China for 10+ year, there are a few things I'd like to point out.
1. In traditional Asian societies, women and children are regarded as having less social importance than men. This was true even for early US history when women and slaves counted as 3/5 of a white male. While China is gradually changing this particular stigma of women, it doesn't change the fact in many areas (especially rural areas, where education is limited), women are still viewed as property. It's very probably that you could be forced to prove your gender, if that stigma is strong enough to inhibit you to act submissively.
2. Each society has its own warped perceptions. China has 3000+ years of history of imperial rule. Even as Mao liberated China from the Japanese and later the Nationalists, he wanted China to be ruled by the laborers, the foundation of the country. However, because of his brilliant military strategies that freed China from foreign oppressors, the people put on a pedestal and willingly gave him political power. On the one hand, the masses gave away power to the government, and on the other hand, the government liked power and would not relent it. With 1.4 billion people, China will continue to keep a relatively tight reign on its people so that there would not be mass chaos.
3. The verification of gender is a business policy. The article gave no indication as to how the Chinese government reacted to this policy. Private business is very sketchy in China, because China is not yet a state of law. There are too many human factors involved, so much so that one day your business may be approved for something and the next it could be taken away. If this policy has the backings of the government, then it would be relatively easy to enforce. No matter what China lacks, it certainly does not lack people or in other words, cheap labor. A system of monitoring could be easily set up.
4. China has long since been operating under Communism, whether you view as a form of government or a economic practice. The country has prospered from limited capitalism. Its people are enjoying greater freedoms, specifically - the pursuit of happiness through personal wealth. There is the understanding that political ideology and spiritual or religious pursuit are done in the privacy of one's home, without disrupting the public. Without much support for public growth of morality through religious or philosophical doctrine, China is spiraling down the ugly path of materialism without ethics.
The Western market has nothing to fear about a gender verification on gaming servers here. Quite simply, there is no cultural support for such a blatant breach of privacy.
There also isn't a need for reading too much into what type of avatar a player chooses. Games are designed with entertainment in mind. It should be fairly obvious that a character will be created for either maximum kill effect or to be visually pleasing. There is nothing wrong with either style of choosing an avatar. It's when people reading too deep into something that is designed to liberate us from reality that reality creeps back into the games.
Your guessing what they "require"
All i see in this thread is alot of people making half-arsed guesses and fueling the "flame-bait" with "they require XXX shots" crap.
As a couple of the more sensible posters have pointed out there is a massive difference in culture here. The male - female ratio's over there count for alot too. They obviously have thier reasons, possible just for media attention, possible they want to "assure" male gamers they are infact talking to females. Maby the gaming culture there is more about online social networking / dating than just playing a game. I personally dont know but I do know better than to post trash about them requiring *XXX shots* etc without actually having something to back up those accusation. (The OP never said XXX but he does infur it within his article)
Maby the article writer should have gotten a little more information before feeding the community with theorys and speculation.
Its possible this is just a media scam to gain some headline space, its also possible they have what they feel are good reasons. From a western view-point sure we view it all as abit strange and wierd, then again I view eating lion's testicles the same way too .. dont mean that they share the same view-point.
People need to be a little more tolerant of other cultures views, if your going the write about them at least do-so in an informed manner.
As an FYI, I'm male and occasionally play female avatars. My wife also plays along side me with my 24year old son and 78 year old mother-in-law. I dont "pretend" to be a girl IRL and am open about being a male player. Have yet to come across anyone who had a problem with it since I am open about being a "guy" On the other hand I can understand why people would be upset to be taken in by a guy trying to pass themselves off as a female, that is a little strange IMO although since I am not cruising for a piece of ass online it really does not impact me. Oh and yes, my wife has laughed at people who give her the 'Vent or your not a girl" line and delights in proving them wrong :p
The ol' insecurity counter. The only better one is the "you just don't have an open mind". I didn't say it was insane behavior, just outside what society deems as the norm. To ignore this doesn't make you better or more enlightened than the rest of us.
For those that think it's wrong/gay for a man to create a female character.....
You must think the men who created the female character Lara Croft are gay/wrong.
You must think Tolkein was wrong/gay for his female characters he created.
In fact, every author who is a man who has ever created a female character must be gay. They were at least wrong to do so.
I bet in fact there are very few male authors you will read due to the fact that 99% have created a female character.
_______________________________________________
The above problem is so ludicrous, as stated a 1000 times before; if there is a problem with men who create female characters, the problem lies with you, not the creator.
Grow up children.
I'm guessing your young and still sexually insecure.
If you are secure in your sexuality then playing a "game" as a female has no impact on you at all. When you grow alittle you'll realize that playing a game as an avatar of the opposite sex really is'ent a big deal. Its the same when you watch a movie or read a book and can relate to the female (or male) characters ..
Now playing as a female and trying to convince other gamers that you ARE female in RL is kinda odd to me and would scream of gender insecurity (Or scamer)
I guess the point I am trying to make is the theres a differance between playing an avatar of the opposite sex and trying to portray yourself as being the opposite sex. One is playing a game, the other is playing with people.
Ok if gaming examples don't work for you.....
Is it creepy for a male author to create a female character for a novel? Once created, they decide what they do, how they look, what they say, exactly as a gamer.
The creepiness only lies with the beholder.
The societal norm is for males to often create female characters, and it has been that way since men began writing.
I am an amateur author. I like to create female characters in mmo's to 'test' them out and gain inspiration for my stories, develop how she interacts with others and see how others react to that particular 'character'; I believe this is normal human behavior.
When I play a game, I play a character, not myself, and I believe it is much creepier to believe you ARE the character rather than controlling one you've created.
Get ahold of your own emotions before projecting 'creepiness' on others - cuz sentiments like yours make me shiver.
No, I pretty much found the whole situation absurd. From the inequality to the absolute insanity of trying to actually enforce this kind of policy.
It's silly is all. That was the point.
Second Life tried some identity verification system for age, but I'm not sure how well that worked for them. I think most people probably understand the reason why, and also that really if they can do it for age.. they could probably run something like that for gender.
Honestly I kind of chuckled a little inside at the outrage. In 12+ years of being on the internet, I've sat and watched the strict code of anonymity slowly change into a word of social networks and tweets. It seems to me that MMO communities have been declining in that same period, from friendly and helpful, into harsh and immature. I attribute this to the multiple layers of anonymity that gamers still want to hind behind, being accountable only to the TOS, and distancing the idea of being true to yourself and others. Now I don't like the idea of forcing someone to play their gender in a game, but I'm not threatened by breaking down a little bit of that anonymity. Certainly the 'RPG' side of the MMOs would lose a little, and I acknowledge that.
Great post that actually has input from someone "In the know" so to speak.
So tell us, Is the MMORPG sub-culture in China used more for gaming or more for social networking?
As other posters have mentioned the male > female ratio in China is sqewed somewhat due to cutural perspective, (I wont get into this aspect, just accept that it is since I dont want to open a debate about this) so would a male, trying to pass themselves off as a female, open a network of "scams" to desperate male gamers seeking a life mate? If that is the case would some method of "authenticating" that female avatars are infact female hold some weight? (Either from a legal - to prevent scammers, or a publicity - Attracting more male gamers, view point?)
I'd appreciate your input in this since you hold somewhat unique view in relation to most posters on these forums.
The only people defending this kind of garbage are the same people that will probably end up on the cover of your news papers for being a pedo. Drooling retards that most likely got their chubby ruined by a female avatar that started typing "sup bro." Check it nerds, you're better off meeting a woman in real life. MMOs are still video games not dating services.
I'd rather stare at a female ass for the endless time-sink hours of playing an MMO. If anything, a dude rolling a female toon is LESS gay than a male.
I agree with that. I personally only play male characters, since I'm male and can't relate to a female toon, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over an invasive policy like this. You prove your gender through your credit card anyways. It's not nearly 100% fool proof, but it's less invasive than a webcam.
So how did all that work out, back in September of 2007?
(Seriously, this story is two years old. Was there some followup info I missed in the post?)
I laughed at this. Those three words speak volumes about Clik. Check what? By bags? Nerds? You're posting on a gaming forum, hello?
No, I pretty much found the whole situation absurd. From the inequality to the absolute insanity of trying to actually enforce this kind of policy.
It's silly is all. That was the point.
Thats your opinion based on a western view-point.
While I myself find it "kinda-odd" I am able to look past my western upbringing and try to reason as to why this would be acceptable to another culture and even encouraged by some sections of that culture. You seem incapable of doing so. The world is bigger than your backyard my friend.
View-points that you dont understand are not always "wrong" or in your words "It's silly is all."
Bias is in everyone (even me I admit it) but if you want to really interact with people on a world wide basis you have to accept your own bias and try to look beyond it. The internet *IS* world wide, the first true world wide communication system for the common man in mankinds history. Dismissing something because it does not fit your cultural "norm" wont get you far in a discussions with people that transend man-made bounderys on a map. (Unless of course your only goal was to stir up western opinion about *those silly chinese* .. which would paint you as a sad individual)
You wrote a piece on a topic that has NO IMPACT on you (There are no plans to put this system in place in thier western games as yet) and tried to hype-it up and garner outrage from an audiance (the western market) that it has no impact on. Worse still you wrote the artical with (you admit it) no refrence to the culture that it does impact or thier feelings on it. Typical media BS.
Before you write articles like this you should at least do a little homework on why they are doing this, what the people actually effected by it feel, are they against it? Its is a ploy for media attention? Do they have what they feel is good reason? .. rather than getting your panties in a twist because someone somewhere is doing something that you dont understand. Try being more objective in your writing and less bias (again, we all have bias, great writers can look past thier own bias though .. you it seems cant)
First off thinking a guy is gay because he makes a girl is stupid. Second thinking that just because other people find it weird doesn't mean we think the guy playing as a girl is gay. IF anything I would assume a gay guy would play a guy because a) he is a guy b) he likes looking at guys.
Plus the defense of saying you would rather look at a chick instead of a dude, that makes you less gay than me. Its a video game, its an computer generated cartoon, it is not a woman. That makes you creepier than I.
For me thats the kicker here though.
For us in the western market MMORPGs are NOT dating services.
In China though? Are they? Do people in China use MMORPGs more for a social networking tool (AkA dating service) or do they use it as we do as a form of entertainment.
If they do indeed use it more for social networking then with thier population statistics (male > female ratio) I can more understand this stance taken by the "game" company. When its less a game and more a "dating service" as you put it then indeed sex verification becomes a little more important. Even more so if there is a rash of Chinese males being scammed by male players posing as females
If you signed on to Match.com and found that the Female that you had been in E-mail contact with was infact male how would you feel? Maby thats how the male "gamer" (I use the word with resivation if infact they use games as a social meeting place) in China feels now? Maby for the males over there looking for a life partner some assurance that the person they are talking to is infact female bares some weight?
Just because the western market has free time and cash to spend on games just for gaming does not mean that game are used in the same way in China. Hence my point, cultural differences are there and unless we try to understand another cultures view point there is little reason to try and discuss it. The original artical was flawed in many ways and is typical of a western poster who has little to no understanding of things outside of his/her sphere and little wish to try and expand thier own view of the world. I am saddened when I read articles like this because it shows the intolerance of man towards man and bodes ill of our future. Until we can understand our neighbour how can we get along with him?
I'm not saying that I am right and that in China this is all acceptable. Maby over there they view it as odd and strange too, the difference between me and the article writer is I would try to find out more and understand why this was happening and how it was viewed (Either good or bad) by the people it directly effected rather than take just my own bias and force it upon the issue as he/she did. Sad.
Not only do they abort girls there (not only in China of course) but they say you can't even role-play a female.That's pretty misogonistic it seems to me.
I'm having a hard time following you BisWinter.
First of all you seem to be very against guys having female Avatars ... heres a direct quote from you in a previous post -
"Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses."
Yet this post you seem to be saying that thinking a guy is gay for playing a female is wrong?
If I am following you then your opinion is that playing a female is wierd and against social norms, BUT playing a female does not make you gay? Thats your point as I read it. Correct me if I am wrong? Or you just forgot to log on your alt account to stir trouble? Apparently making a female Avatar is "less gay than you" but "creepy"? Your train of though just eludes me at present (Prob the 12-pack causing that tho :p )
China has been wrestling with sexual deviation issues since Chairman Mao declared all things outside his idea of what is "normal" as being bad. At the forefront, is a campaign to stamp out homosexuality... it is illegal there and can get you jail or death. Despite this, China has a large, openly gay population that is growing, and it vexes the conservative government to no end.
Likewise, in Asia, there are many men who like to dress up and otherwise be feminine regardless of what their actual sexual orientation is. This is also against party doctrine. And like the gay issue, it is not going away and, in fact, is growing in popularity which, again, peeves the government off.
I wager it is based off the very wrong assumption that it is the gay players who make the female toons as well as a means to keep the straight boys straight via banning cross-tooning. This policy by this company is probably a reaction to China's greater policies on the above issues, and like all such knee-jerk policies, it is full of fail.
First of all, a gay man will make a male toon so to be able to see pretty male pixels and if he should score cybersex, it would be with another male toon. The whole girl on guy sex thing ruins the fun.
Secondly, In Second Life, the largest number of males who make female toons and engage in cybersex are those men who enjoy lesbian fantasies ala Penthouse Magazine. In short, it is not the gays doing this, it is the straight guys. The gay guys make, well, gay male toons.
The other problem, is if a female toon really is a girl, then all the stalkers know who to hit on. This will force many girls to make male toons which should also be banned if such policies are in force, but it is not. Why? Because the stalking and fondling of women is common place, and even quietly accepted, in China.
Thus, those posters who called this chinese company a bunch of bigoted perves has it totally right. It will actually hurt women far more than gays, and force straight men to stare at a horridly rendered neanderthal dude's ass for hours and hours of grinding.
One has to wonder how they will categorize herms? My guess they will completely barred from playing altogether given the cruelty of this company's intentions.
Lastly, I have to wonder if men will be banned from playing games like Tomb Raider?
Oh, and I'd liek to point out something that people seem to have forgotten. MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING Game. In other words, if the fantasy role you want to play is a member of the opposite sex, than that is your perogative. If you have cybersex with people in MMO's and are upset by this, well, find a real partner and stop playing so much.
I will confess this.
I hate when guys play females because to me it's misrepresenting oneself. I kinda hate ppl pretending to be someone they're not.
THAT being said... I play MYSELF (don't rollplay} on all online games...i might be unique in that so i don't judge others for it.
but back in the pre nge days of swg..."the good ol days" it was common practice to be down on what was then called a "shim" that term i did not really subscribe to but it was used alot then.
since then 'games' like second life showed me ALOT more need for properly identifying the avatar as a proper gender...anyone that's been there understands what that mean...
but also...in a game like say AoC the female toons are stunningly hot and alot of guys ...admitedly...like some boobies in their face....but i don't have to play a chic toon to enjoy that myself...
eh...
whatever floats your boat. Just don't come to me as a chic avatar when you're a guy and try and hit on me...that's blatant misrepresentation of yourself and why i have issues with it....back to square ONE.
*ahem*
What?
Can I ask, honestly, whether or not you actually read the article?
No kidding guys have been playing female toons forever. I know I have. This article was written to point out how stupid this particular policy actually is. I'm making a "big deal" out of it because it's completely outrageous. Many news sites picked up on this story and I wanted to use my column this week to rant about how stupid it was.
I could see your complaint if the article had been written from the perspective of : hey, what a great idea... but it wasn't.
I'm sorry...I'm just - having a bad week OK. My bad. :( I apologize. It's a good article.
In my new MMO (FE) i play one female and one male. the female is my main while the main is more of a scout/explorer to areas i missed on my main.
would this make me 1/2 gay in china's eyes?
lets look at a male onscreen or a female onscreen all day. quite sure the male would be the gay one if any was...
and also, this should mean be banning females who play as males also?
or why do they just make everyone sexless and add in some random lore how it is some bio-toxin that makes everyone asexual, this would fix the problem completely
In the morning, I have to do a handstand to go to the toilet.
I do not fully disagree with a law like that, there must be reasons behind it. I always play female characters in mmos and I am a male, but we are in NA.
Don't forget that in China and a lot of Asian countries, playing online games is a lifestyle, and a lot of people, especially younger people play games as their main social life. They go on to play the games and to meet and make friends with people. Even a lot of relationships are started on online games.
A lot of the younger generations are playing these games, and I think that if a 14 year old girl gets approached by a female character pretending to be female in real life and start developing a friendship with that person who is actually a 30 year old man decieving her so that he can get personal with her and maybe rape her, then I think that this law can protect younger children.
My example is a little extreme, but it happens a lot online, and sexual predators, especially in Asian countries are starting to target mmo players. Why do you think that games like Wizard 101 and Free Realms don't allow open chat unless you can prove that you are an adult? It is to protect the younger children.
I kinda understand what your saying.
Being taken in is abhorent to most of us. On the other hand people seem to focus in on the males playing female that do it. I'm sure all of us have heard of, or have been the victims of scams in some form or another in online games. Yet theres no where near as much "press" about people being taken in by others acting as game GMs, or guild masters or whatever.
Its more a "personal" insult when we are fooled by someone portraying themselves as being of the wrong sex, than it is as them portraying themselves as being something else. I guess its just an evolutionary thing that we "should' recognize someone as being a possible mating partner, where-as we are more forgiving of ourselves being taken in by other scams.
As I've said in other posts, I occasionally play female Avatars although I never try to pass myself off as being a female IRL. I am forthcomming about being a male and its no issue to me. I dont try to seek out females in-game (I have a wife thanks, 9 years and still happy!) I also dont try to scam people in game, if a deal is made I uphold to it to the letter. I guess that what I am trying to say is that people are more forgiving of themselves if they are scammed out of gold / in game items etc by someone else because they accept that "shit happens", Where-as when they have an emotional involvement (IE they believe that the other person is a female who they have "connected with") they are less forgiving of themselves because they "should have known better" )
I guess this is where the "If you play a gurl UR weird" comes from.
Most people prob dont realize that many of the female Avatars they deal with (and indeed alot of the male ones - I know alot of females that play male Avatars) are not actually the sex portrayed. Yet you can be sure that the one time they were taken in by a guy playing that "cute 18 year old" they remember it for life!!
Which kinda rounds to my point about the OP's topic. If, and I said IF, there are alot of young Chinese males being "scammed' by apparent female characters then having a system in place that assures females in game are actually female holds some weight no? Being scammed by a female suxs but is no where near as big a blow to the male ego as being scammed by a male pretending to be a female ...
Thats not to say this is 100% why the company in question is taking these mesures, maby they have different reasons, although the OP failed to explore these and instead just decided to use his culture barrier to exploite a news story without actually garnering any facts or information at all.
In point, I'm not defending the company in question or thier actions since I dont know the reasons behind them or the cultural ramifications of them. I just wish that the OP in writing his artical had taken the time to explore thier reasoning and gotten some input from the people effected by it before posting his "story". Cultural ignorance is a poor bias for an article.
I'm having a hard time following you BisWinter.
First of all you seem to be very against guys having female Avatars ... heres a direct quote from you in a previous post -
"Stupid way to enforce gender rules. I have no idea what would be a good way. Men role playing women is just creepy. Please don't bring Tomb Raider or Diablo 2, or any fighter game into this. When a man CHOOSES to make himself a girl, that is just weird. No excuses."
Yet this post you seem to be saying that thinking a guy is gay for playing a female is wrong?
If I am following you then your opinion is that playing a female is wierd and against social norms, BUT playing a female does not make you gay? Thats your point as I read it. Correct me if I am wrong? Or you just forgot to log on your alt account to stir trouble? Apparently making a female Avatar is "less gay than you" but "creepy"? Your train of though just eludes me at present (Prob the 12-pack causing that tho :p )
I was trying to keep up with the conversation. Someone posted that people that think its weird ( a guy playing as a girl) must think said gamer is "wrong/gay". He then went on to list like 5 unrelated things like authors writing female characters and what not. Then someone else posted that he makes female characters because he would rather look at a chick and by doing so he is less gay then all us guys who play guys.
To sum up my point of view. I don't care if men play as women. But I do think it is weird. It doesn't make them gay or wrong. I would just like to know their reasoning. I've heard tons of excuses, but they just don't make any sense. I.E. the guy playing a girl to look at a girl. Its just an animated cartoon. That in itself is kind of creepy. Though I admit when I was 9 I had a crush on Dr. Blight from Captain Planet.
Wow...really?
Jeebus, that's totally uncalled for. Unless the player has a bunch of sexual harassment complaints filed against him, there's absolutely NO reason for the company to care what gender a player's character is.
for ages ONLY men were allowed to portray women in stage performances all around the world, as being an actor was considered a man's role in society. needless to say what this company is doing is discriminatory to say the least.
Regardless of over-arching social issues, or stances on whether it's acceptable to play a toon cross-gender (I routinely play female characters, however in any OOC conversation I make no effort to carry on the illusion.), there's something kind of obvious that seems worth pointing out.
I don't claim to know anything about Chinese law, but depending on the social protections for people submitting this "confirmation", and the extent to which that company is taking the definition of "Biological proof", wouldn't this seem like a poorly masked effort to build a, y'know.. porn database? I'd say there's more important exploitative behavior here to be pissed off about than the shallow issues surrounding whether or not that night-elf Jimmy Joe Bob cybered with yesterday was really a girl.
this topic is so full of fail, vote to remove it from the forums!
I think a lot of the things that still go on in China would make you cry Jon. This kind of thing, imo, is a small sample of what a lot of us would find to be a very intrusive, oppressive society.
It makes me a bit more mindful of some of the freedoms I take for granted daily.
I was trying to keep up with the conversation. Someone posted that people that think its weird ( a guy playing as a girl) must think said gamer is "wrong/gay". He then went on to list like 5 unrelated things like authors writing female characters and what not. Then someone else posted that he makes female characters because he would rather look at a chick and by doing so he is less gay then all us guys who play guys.
To sum up my point of view. I don't care if men play as women. But I do think it is weird. It doesn't make them gay or wrong. I would just like to know their reasoning. I've heard tons of excuses, but they just don't make any sense. I.E. the guy playing a girl to look at a girl. Its just an animated cartoon. That in itself is kind of creepy. Though I admit when I was 9 I had a crush on Dr. Blight from Captain Planet.
Ahh ok. Maby I can answer some of your questions.
I personally dont mind if I play a guy or girl character. For me its about character models. If i think a girl model has a more fluid animation set, or the armor models "fit" better then I will lean towards playing a Girl character. It has nothing to do with the age old *Looking a a girls ass for 4 hours a day* BS.
Honestly I am of the opinion that developers aim to "please" girl gamers more than male gamers. It seems to me (personal observation here) that girl characters have more time spent on them when it comes to animation details etc. Thier modeling is more "realistic" (Abit from a penthouse fantasy rather than real life) than that of male models (which all appear top-heavy to me .. more brawn than brain) I like how the female models appear more fluid . Thier movements seem more natural than the male counter parts.
When I view Male models in most games they are of the "triangle" format, thin at the bottom with exagerated shoulders and a huge main body mass. It just does not relate to me persoanlly. Now games where I can fully customize my avatars appearance I tend to play males, I tend to play a shorter (even though I am 6'1" IRL) more slender (I aint a fatty) but well portioned male. Most games dont offer this and give and exagerated male physique that I just dont relate too.
Its strange and just aesthetic to me.
Thats not to say that I am some strange person at odds with my sexuality. I am male, Married many years and happy to be so. If I cant relate at all to the male models in a game I am more likly to play a female character with fluid movements and a body type I find appealing. My wife has no issue with this and plays along side me. Sure when I was younger and first started playing MMORPGs I always played male characters .. as I've aged and am totally comfortable with my own sexuality I've moved to playing characters I find appealing over "just males".
Thats possibly where the taunts about personal comfort with sexuality come from. Those of us who are older really dont view it as a big issue and play a character based on other factors opposed to sex. We play what the sex that we view as most aesthetically pleasing to us .... be it male or female. It we "feel" it moves right and reacts right we have no problems with it. Game developers (to my mind) seem to be trying to "catch" the female market and are thus more willing to invest more time into making female Avatars move and act more "smoothly" than thier male counter parts. Maby someday soon male Avatars will get as much love and I'll play more males in-game .. who knows??
I think this has more to do with the Chinese state of things more than anything.
In most countries women outnumber men just slightly, or are almost even. In China the ratio is something like 10 men to every 1 woman. This, where the government is panic-struck by the mere thought of homosexuality. So it is sort of understandable from the perspective of one of the largest game companies, where a good number of Chinese men spend most of their waking moments in these games.
Is it right? No...but it does make sense.
ok I read the article and about 30 comments - maybe someone said this:
I think that policy would actually drive females away from MMOs, because once everyone knows the female toons are real, live, breathing women, many juvenile guys would relentlessly hound them with unwanted chatter at best, and at worst bad pick-up lines, rude sexist comments, and outright sexual harassment. I think most players are decent, but there are plenty of rude ones who would ruin it for the girls.
LOL 10:1 Indeed.
The current ratio is 106 men to 100 women. Expected to rise to 112 men to 100 women in the next few years. Really .. try a quick search to confirm facts before typing trash like 10:1 lol.
Sure that dont sound alot at first .. but when you concider China's popluation of 1.3 billion that means that alot of horney men are out of luck (in the region of 400,000) that kinda smacks hard ...
LOL 10:1 Indeed.
The current ratio is 106 men to 100 women. Expected to rise to 112 men to 100 women in the next few years. Really .. try a quick search to confirm facts before typing trash like 10:1 lol.
Sure that dont sound alot at first .. but when you concider China's popluation of 1.3 billion that means that alot of horney men are out of luck (in the region of 400,000) that kinda smacks hard ...
I keep forgetting sarcasm and exaggeration don't carry well over the internet.
That really depends on what the female gamers in China are using the game for.
As I've said before, if the game is simply a game then yes this kind of behaviour could drive away female gamers due to harassment. On the other hand if MMORPGs are mainly used as social netwroking tools in China then it would have little to no impact on the female users logging in looking for a life partner or mate in that framework (No more so than Match.com asking you for your sex when signing up.) It would just assure the males there that they were infact dealing with a female (Although this could still be bypassed by fraudsters it would offer some sense of secruity for male "gamers")
People need to stop looking at this from a purly western view point and try to take onboard what online games mean outside of our own culture.
Of course I am just playing Devils advocate here since I am not Chinese and have no clue if infact MMORPGs are used this way in China, I am just advocating that people move out of thier own sandboxes and try to view the world as larger than the US of A. The writer of the article gave no information from the Chinese view point and made no effort to find out the cultural view point either. He wrote an article based on his western Bias and attempted to enflame the western audiance about those "Evil commies" with no reguard.
I have little respect for a writer who sandboxes himself in such a way and refuses to explore viewpoints outside of his own bias. If your going to write an artical about what some people (or company) is doing in another part of the world under another culture the least you can do it try to see it from thier perspective as a counter argument. He obviously got no input from Chinese gamers about his piece and put a blatent western spin on the whole piece. Thats not to say I want the writer to defend them for thier actions .. but I do at least expect the writer to have explored thier view point. Who knows maby if he'd bothered to talk to some gamers in China he would agree (or at least understand) this companys move ... we'll never know though since hes so close minded he could'ent even be bothered to try ...
I keep forgetting sarcasm and exaggeration don't carry well over the internet.
Indeed.
Sorry for being anal, I assumed it was sarcastic, but had I not said anything tomorrow in American schools hordes of pre-pubecent teenagers would have been spreading the word about how there were 10:1 Chinese males to females and the poor immigrant chinese kids in thier classes would have been catching hell :p
The internet is truth after all. Most it seems dont verify facts but take whats written as truth .. Hence some of the shit the I have to listen to day in and day out by internet guru's who could'ent tell thier arse from thier elbows if money was riding on it ...
For me gender choice in a toon is decided by how cool I think my toon can look.
In WOW for instance I choose Female for humans because the Male Human looks like a ROID HEAD RETARDS.
In Champions I made Male monster and robot heros. Female human and cyborg heros.
Many MMOs have just cooler looking Female toons, with lack luster or uninteresting Male toons.
I also will not deny that as a Male MMO player if I have to look at my toon for hours on end, looking at a female figure is slightly more desirable.
But with game developers only creating lack luster male toons it only encourages me more to create female toons.
MMOs are a game a fantasy, and you should be able to play whatever you want reguardless of gender.
I don't think it is any of their business what sex the player really is.
Asking the customer to prove that they are Male or Female via web-cam is crazy. Who is going to pay for the web-cam? If they require I have one, they had better be prepaired to provide one on request and the software for the bloody thing needs to be pre-configured so that all I need to do is hook up the web-cam install the software and connect to them.
Do you think that is a harsh way to feel about it? No I don't own a web-cam nor do I want one. So for I have not found a need or desire for one.
Do you wanna date my avatar?
Yeah, that avatar is hot, but the guy controlling her is 50 with a hairy beer gut.
This is a good idea--I'd like to know that's really a girl behind that hot avatar.
http://www.youtube.com/user/watchtheguild?blend=1&ob=4#p/a
This thread has more than a hundred posts. Therefore it is a successful thread.
Heh wtf is up with that? You quit a game because you found out the girl you were hitting on was a guy with a bigger slong than you? I play female toons often. I am a guy. Why would I want to sit and look at a guy's arse while I am trying to enjoy a game? Again, I am a guy, not a gay. Do I abuse the feminine status of my toon? No. If someone hits on me I politely tell them they might wanna be careful reaching under this skirt. Something might grab back :D
This has to be one of the best article subjects i've seen in awhile, made me laugh on so many levels.
Yes a lot of people preffer to play female toons, I too explore the opposite sex once making several male toons gets boring.
But a few of these people like to take that role literal, especially older men who like little boys. Preventing online predators is the only reason I can see behind this change in policy.
Though it may be a tad on the perverted side of things, since it singles out women to provide "proof" (lmao). It is still something i'd welcome in any mmog or social network i've ever been on, but providing all members are subjected to supply "proof" (lmao again). Since i'm sure we've all had an issue reguarding actual irl gender come up atleast once over the many years on the internet lol.
lmao what a completely meaningless policy.
so how are you supposed to prove your gender in an internet environment and why would it even be relevant for a mmorpg?
ok some players find it a bit awkward when it turns out they gave a female character compliments and later on it turns out to be a guy but .... how can you ever be sure anyway just from information provided over the internet?
i have seen a miss elections on a game forum once but it can be questionable if it is really their picture instead of some pin-up model from a site. i am pretty sure there are enough men who would pose as a girl to win some prices too. ok they were required to show a screen of the game on the pictures in that forum but even then you can not really be sure that it really was a certain player. the girl next door might have been good looking for example :p
anyway despite of some hilarious moments (if you keep your sense of humor and do not think too much about potential "common" hidden sexism in societies) things like this have nothing to do with gaming anymore.
the only sane reason i can think off why a western company would ever adapt this kind of "gender" policy is for the free publicity because topics like this prove that it seems to work. :p
Ive played SGW, CoH and I currently play LOTRO. and Ive always rolled male and female characters.
I like to create back stories (rpger?) for them, and have their stories entertwined, even if I cant play them side by side.
A friend of mine in LOTRO said hes tired of looking at his male avatars butt running around middle earth all the time.
and i can understand that. but i dont play a girl avatar because i want to BE a girl, im very happy with my boy-parts. i
like the stories i create with the characters. what ever this companies idea of doing this is for, i find it odd, but hey, at least I dont have worry about it, its not a game i play..
also... people CYBER in games???? never done that. dont care to. if i want cyber isnt that what craigs list is for? LOL
Does anyone know if the position to check the web cam videos has been filled yet? I think I am eminently qualified for such a job, knocking up a CV now to send in.
There are rules of conduct for being "hounded relentlessly". Besides, I think most males are civilized enough not to do that and if they are not they deserved to be banned.
You put too much faith in the Internet. The point is that a lot of women playing aren't looking for a date, or hoping to be spammed up by foaming, weeaboo, nerd #69883. If a female player wants you to know she is a female she'll tell you otherwise it is really none of your damn business who is behind the keyboard.
Why not? If you fill out a form for a job or questionaire or sign up to play a sport on the weekends then you are required to say what your gender is. Why should computer games be any different?
I as a game want to know who I am playing with, not personal, indepth stuff, but basic things like gender I dont see a reason for hiding.
As for women looking for dates. Where did I mention anything about that? I am just against hiding your true gender, why would you do that? If you are doing it because you are being harrased then that is the problem that should be addressed by enforcing the rules of conduct of the game.
You are using their service, they have every right to ask you not to misrepresent your gender. If you dont like that then dont use their service.
I wonder how long it will be before female-only servers show up, like the sex segregation in most sports.
I wonder how long it will be before female-only servers show up, like the sex segregation in most sports.
Not saying that is the way to go but you have sex seggregation in many video-game tournaments and some have a requirement that you have atleast one female on your team.
Believe it or not men and women are different, not better or worse, but different (general speaking). And I dont see any problem with stating what gender you are.
If you really want to play a female char and you are male I dont see an issue with that aslong as I know you are a male sitting behind the keyboard. Hiding your true gender, be it behind a computer desk or lying for a job application, I dont see any good in that.
Why would you want to do that? Beside roleplaying reasons, wich very few people do in MMORPGs, I dont see a valid reason.
I really do not understand the fuzz. As a gamer you are given a choice to play this game or not. If you like so and want to play a female character you KNOW beforehand that your have to submit to this. It's not that this game has an monopoly on the MMO market and that there is not enough to choice from.
Beside that I do understand the move. I must imagine it must be hard to compete in the Asian MMO market with all those mmo's. So you do something drastic with get's you in the news and appeal to a certain group of players (Those who dislike man playing female toons). I do not see what it's odd that a company appeals to an certain type of players at all. Every game does so and I think this is rather innovating (I disagree with it though and do not see the point!) and might get them those players into the game.
I don't RP as a female. In the rare case when I do RP, I always play a male character.
The great majority of the time, I think of my character as 'him' or 'her', not 'me'.
So all kinds of people jumped up on Teala's back Sayin " Did you even read it?"
So i say to all of you, Did You Read It?
I'm gonna guess not, because if you had you would have seen the following sentences---
"No, I'm wrong actually, this insane policy only applies to people choosing to create a female character. Women, it appears, are free to pose as men as much as their little hearts desire."
That little gem at the end of the OP's rant is most likely what caused her reaction. Can ya see it now?
Now, while her reaction may have been a bit over sensitive, that is often how women react to things and flaming them is no way to keep them around.
I know, I know alot of you probably havent been on a date since you divorced your hand, but really it wasnt that hard to see?
If you people really want to play video games with women, i suggest you learn something about them before you go runnin off at the fingers again.
The thing is I see alot of people posting here with the mind-set of how the articles content effects the western market.
"the only sane reason i can think off why a western company would ever adapt this kind of "gender" policy is for the free publicity because topics like this prove that it seems to work. :p"
That was just one quote pulled at random from the above posts (Not digging at that poster in particular just using it as an example)
Thats the failing of the OPs article. It has NO bearing on the western market at this time. The company has released no press about thier intentions to do this in the western market. So as far as I can see this whole blurb is just an "OMG look at those wackey Chinese" type piece.
The OP did not set any argument as to why this should not be done in the western market, that would have actually required he get off his butt on do some *gasp* research. If he had there would be something to debate here. Instead he made a usless article about something that has no bearing on most of the posters on these forums. He (the OP) made no move to initiate discussion with the few posters here on MMORPG.com that it does impact.
I could understand the article if it was a discussion piece about the differences between the western and Chinese markets, I could understand if the piece tried to initiate some discussion about how such regulation would be greeted in our market, hell if the article had some meat to it citing reasons why this was a good / bad move in its targeted market (China) I could see a reason for the article, instead its just meaningless twaddle. He grabbed a headline and wrote an "ohh look look!" piece to garner outrage from his target audiance (you)
Broaden your outlook on life and try to understand why a game company in China would make this move. Thats not to say I agree with it (Heck it could just be a move to garner press coverage - bingo!) but I'm open minded enough to reason through it. The OP should have made some attempt to actually research and discover if this move was actually welcomed or not by its target audiance instead of acting like an outraged teenager who's mom threatened to take away his I-pod. Just a little background research and this could have been an interesting topic worth debating, Differences in culture, Chinese attitudes Vs western to such a move, instead its pretty much hate-mongering IMO.
Right, so it's men who are being discriminated against, not women. She played the victim without cause.
Right, so it's men who are being discriminated against, not women. She played the victim without cause.
Its not that women were being discriminated against, its the "as much as thier little hearts desire" part that women would object to. Its written in what seems a dismissive and condescending manner. Its likely that the OP did'ent mean it as such ... but on face value thats how it could be taken which may offend. Ending the sentence "as much as they desire" would have gone over much better without the apparent snipe at women gamers.
All I can say is: LOL
Actually I'm surprised it didn't happen yet, that some MMORPGs allow their female gamers to play for free without a subscription fee. I mean there are lots of parties where women can go in for free or reduced entry free because having a high number of women there lures more men in.
If an MMORPG can say "50% of the gamers here are women" (because they don't have to pay) it would lure in lots and lots of testosteron-oozing youths, no matter how bad the game is. :)
Seriously though, the question is not if they're allowed to have such a policy or not. Of course they are allowed to. There are also parties where people who don't wear black can't get in, or who don't wear a suit, or who don't run around in leather and latex. It's the personal decision of whoever organizes the stuff on what is required to enter.
The question is rather, why the company thinks that the real gender matters that much in a video game. I mean, you play the game, you have two female and two male chars in your group. Now, reasons why their real gender could matter to you would be:
- You want to meet the other players in person. Then it's more of a dating game though rather than a normal MMORPG. Though I assume that even most dating services online don't force-check your gender. Or it's not a dating game and you're just completly desperate.
- You're very conservative and think that women have to wear dresses, give birth to children whenever they can, have to please their men and stay at home. While men need a job like woodcutter or wolf-strangler, wash not more than once a month, have a full beard and need to get drunk daily. In that case: man... Unless you live somewhere far away from civilzation or are member of a brainwashing sect, you'll have lots to complain each day. And shouldn't you then go and kill a bear with your bare hands instead of playing a game?
- You're so horny you contiuously fapfapfap to everything female you see, be it actual women, videos, photos, images or seeing their pixelated counterfeits in a game. And since you want to be a real man and not a perv you only want to do that about actual women and are scared that it could be a guy behind the character.
- You're a homophobiac. If you play as a female character, could others think you'd like to be female? Will they think you're gay? Or are you gay when you play a male character and look at his muscular pixelated handsomeness? Oh noes, people could always think you're gay no matter what you do!! You better proof your manlyness in solving this problem in simply telling everyone what gender their character should have. This should solve the problem and your worries.
What? EVERY month?
What? EVERY month?
Heh he said not more than once a month ... so skipping a couple is acceptable :)
ROFL, I think Teala is more than capable of defending herself. I think most woman would take offense to just about everything you just wrote, as if they need prince valiant at their side while traversing the dangerous perils of the interwebzz.
I think she's also capable of explaining herself as she did with her apology to the author of this piece. Who she admits snapping at rashly.
For a column writer, it's a terrible misunderstanding to say that 'Developer time' would be wasted by this. It's bad enough that MMO players complain about bug fixes not happening because too much art is added to a game. At least that's confusing two different types of development team though - confusing a developer and an account manager type role is awful.
That aside, stupid move by the company obviously, but I never really get the "I have to stare at an arse for hours, it's gonna be a female one" arguement. I admit that when I played my first MMO (SWG) it never occured to me that people would roll a character of the opposite gender.
Good point. That's a relief.
For the record, I'm only trying to conserve water.
Perhaps you should try it some time. Then you'd've learnt about the way some jerks try to treat women. I hope that does not tread on your toes too hard. Oh, I know there are the galants out there too but you'd be amazed how quickly you'd get rich from the many inadequates offering you a gold piece just for taking all your kit off! You'd be the best equiped level one in the city, should you choose to accept. Then there's the crowd who want you to talk dirty, hopefully with a box of tissues to hand so they can wipe off their keyboards [I wonder if that's why so many players have stuck CapsLock keys]. You also meet the 'experts' who not only don't know how to play their own class but show you they don't know how to play yours as they try to lecture you in monosylabic advice lest you're too dumb to understand big words. I think you would find creating just one character of the opposite sex and role-playing it regularly, to be incredibly educational.
There are already enough lonely hearts web sites out there if one is genuinely interested in meeting partners of whatever orientation floats your boat. Since I'm not aware of any MMORPG that actually get past the wedding stage by allowing you to create your next character by producing offspring, the gender/ orientation of everyone else in what is a fantasy game is totally irrelevant. Just respect they're another human being [usually] and treat them courteously as you hope they'd treat you.
I don't RP as a female. In the rare case when I do RP, I always play a male character.
The great majority of the time, I think of my character as 'him' or 'her', not 'me'.
Well sure, that is what roleplaying is about. But in my experience, playing MMORPGs for over 12 years, roleplayers are very rare and even on roleplaying servers to see people actually "be in character" is not common.
But even so, I think people who play against/for each other, should know basic info about who the are playing with. Such as if they are minors, gender etc.
I dont know about you but I act differently if a person is a minor or a women. For example I would not normally use offensive language towards minors or jokes that are of sexual nature towards females because imo, most of the time, that is not appreciated.
So I would not mind if a guy plays a female character, but I do want to know the true gender of the person controlling that male character so I can act accordingly.
Its not that women were being discriminated against, its the "as much as thier little hearts desire" part that women would object to. Its written in what seems a dismissive and condescending manner. Its likely that the OP did'ent mean it as such ... but on face value thats how it could be taken which may offend. Ending the sentence "as much as they desire" would have gone over much better without the apparent snipe at women gamers.
What?
Women would object to that? I doubt it. ONE women objected to the article and, judgind from her post, I would say she did not get the article at all. I doubt most women would find that sentance dismissive and/or condascending. Is it the "little" part that would do that? Dont think majority of women are that sensetive.
You have to think about games like PerfectWorld Internationnal for example, where some class are gender specific! Does that mean a guy could NEVER be allowed to play a veno?! Or a woman forbidden to play a barbarian! Thats just absurd.
Waaaait wait wait wait...
So you play a game that childrens play as well, and then use offensive language towards other players? Why? Can't you just behave respectfully towards others, no matter their age or gender?
And then, to pick up your example, you keep telling sexist jokes obviously often enough that it matters, and which are obviously that harassing that you wouldn't want any "real" woman to notice that you like doing so? Why? Would you want next that a company tells you which nationality people have so you can adjust your racist jokes the same way as your sexist jokes and offensive language?
Why telling such jokes and using such language in the first case? If you don't want to tell people the jokes who are the target of your harrassment because you don't want to hurt them, then simply stop telling such jokes in the first case. They do not get better if the people they are about do not hear them. These "jokes" still exist, get told, and whoever gets targeted will get hurt.
Or you don't want them to notice you telling such jokes because you want to impress "the ladies" to seem more mature than you are? What for? You'll most likely never meet them anyway in person. And if you do, they'll notice sooner or later anyway what kind of humor you got.
As said:
Be respectful towards other players no matter their age, gender, nationality or whatever. Or is it that hard to do?
I used to never gender bend ever. Used to try and make chars look as close to myself as possible. After a while seeing the really cool looking female characters I tried creating one. After that I thought why the hell would I want to follow a character around (since they are mostley all played in 3rd person) thats a guy when I could be watching a Tomb Raider look a like. Now I create them to look as close to my wife as possible with a few enhancements here and there :). Its like a movie, entertainment, kind of like an actor or actress your controlling throughout the scenes so who cares? China is a different story all together. Government into everything, controlling everything. Bet they have government health care too.
While I agree with the article position I also find some good in this. Personally I hate being immersed in the RP, completely enjoying the game to have the young female wizard I have been protecting for the last month come on comms and have a voice deeper than mine and have a real name of Ralph. It kills the games immersion.
I guess you are among the many that miss the bigger picture.
Sure, yea, it ensures that the female toon you chat with is a female behind it, but thats it. The female toons will be harassed to no end in the game now. Think about it... You have 20% female population, thats 4 guys per girl. You bet they will get harassed (by harassed I mean sent messages and given too much attention).
As to immersion, I dont get it. If you are on voice-chat you are already fighting against immersion. I totally disacociate in-game gender from real-life gender since I'd rather play female toons over male ones. They just look better.
Umm... if your talking 100% total immersive experience - Why in the world are you using any form of Ventrilo or TeamSpeak?
Per your same argument:
Not to mention that I would suspect that your RP partner would probably think that they were the one protecting you.
First reaction: LMAO
Second reaction: Feminine hysteria? Boys do more bitch fights online than girls do :P
Third reaction: LMAO
This is so ridiculous, it's amazing people are even capable of discussing it on a near serious basis. I would imagine the company will be losing a lot of players - and a lot of income - on that policy, and I doubt if they wanna earn money any companies will follow their examples.
As for all the homophobic boys getting all riled up over the 'but-but-but we were just having such a good time and she turns out to be a he!! *gasp-shock-gasp*" - there's a reason it's called roleplaying. If you can't seperate IC from OOC, chances are the other party, should she be a girl, is better off not 'having a good time with you'.
Waaaait wait wait wait...
So you play a game that childrens play as well, and then use offensive language towards other players? Why? Can't you just behave respectfully towards others, no matter their age or gender?
Ofcourse I try and act respectfully against others but being disrespectful to a guy in his twenties and a minor and a female can mean different things. That was my point.
And then, to pick up your example, you keep telling sexist jokes obviously often enough that it matters, and which are obviously that harassing that you wouldn't want any "real" woman to notice that you like doing so? Why? Would you want next that a company tells you which nationality people have so you can adjust your racist jokes the same way as your sexist jokes and offensive language?
Excuse me but where did I say SEXIST jokes? I said jokes that are sexual of nature, that does not mean sexists. learn the difference. I never tell sexist or rascist jokes. Again it seems you seem have to (deliberitely?) misinterpret what I was saying.
Why telling such jokes and using such language in the first case? If you don't want to tell people the jokes who are the target of your harrassment because you don't want to hurt them, then simply stop telling such jokes in the first case. They do not get better if the people they are about do not hear them. These "jokes" still exist, get told, and whoever gets targeted will get hurt.
See above. I was not talking about sexist or rascist jokes. Some jokes are inappropriate to tell to various types of people. Does not neccessarily need to be rascist. Jay Leno for example made alot of jokes about Catholic priests fondling children, that type of jokes is maybe not something you want to joke about towards minors.
Or you don't want them to notice you telling such jokes because you want to impress "the ladies" to seem more mature than you are? What for? You'll most likely never meet them anyway in person. And if you do, they'll notice sooner or later anyway what kind of humor you got.
As said:
Be respectful towards other players no matter their age, gender, nationality or whatever. Or is it that hard to do?
Again you have totally missunderstood what I was saying. People, even if you dont want to realise it, act differently in different environments. Not in the sense that you want to make it look like, that you are rascist or sexist but rather that some type of language and manners are different when you talk to different people. As an example I had jokes of sexual nature (observe not neccessarily sexist) which in my experiences resonate better to younger males than younger females or minors.
Anyway, this is getting derailed of the subject. My standpoint is: If you are male then why would you want to hide that fact? If it does not matter to you then the policy should not matter. What do I care of someone knows if a am female or male when playing an internet game? I would rather want them to know so that they can act in the right context.
Thats your opinion based on a western view-point.
While I myself find it "kinda-odd" I am able to look past my western upbringing and try to reason as to why this would be acceptable to another culture and even encouraged by some sections of that culture. You seem incapable of doing so. The world is bigger than your backyard my friend.
View-points that you dont understand are not always "wrong" or in your words "It's silly is all."
Bias is in everyone (even me I admit it) but if you want to really interact with people on a world wide basis you have to accept your own bias and try to look beyond it. The internet *IS* world wide, the first true world wide communication system for the common man in mankinds history. Dismissing something because it does not fit your cultural "norm" wont get you far in a discussions with people that transend man-made bounderys on a map. (Unless of course your only goal was to stir up western opinion about *those silly chinese* .. which would paint you as a sad individual)
You wrote a piece on a topic that has NO IMPACT on you (There are no plans to put this system in place in thier western games as yet) and tried to hype-it up and garner outrage from an audiance (the western market) that it has no impact on. Worse still you wrote the artical with (you admit it) no refrence to the culture that it does impact or thier feelings on it. Typical media BS.
Before you write articles like this you should at least do a little homework on why they are doing this, what the people actually effected by it feel, are they against it? Its is a ploy for media attention? Do they have what they feel is good reason? .. rather than getting your panties in a twist because someone somewhere is doing something that you dont understand. Try being more objective in your writing and less bias (again, we all have bias, great writers can look past thier own bias though .. you it seems cant)
To serve as an example, that what becomes a no brainer for westerners is not what other countries want or are used to, when I was in Iraq when I was in the Marines, back in 2003, the goal passed down to us troops was that Bush wanted to bring democracy to the mid-east. I guess democracy was something that the U.S. would stand behind, to support the war with more zeal, but democracy is great from our perspective. It is not great, as recent history has proven, for the people over there. They aren't used to it, their cultural norms don't support it, and many don't like it. This would baffle a western person, because having more freedom should be a no brainer, but they liked their lives that THEY were used to.
Now I'm not saying the Chinese like this gender verification thing, but I'm not going to pass judgement like an arrogant fool either, because I don't know the kind of support this idea has over there or their reasons. While it's outrageous to consider doing something in the USA like that, and it violates so many laws it isn't funny, it may be normal over there. I don't judge countries based on their abnormal ways, just because they're strange to me. Take children sweat shops as another example. Children in other countries work, it's the norm, because if they don't work, they'd starve as would their families. Everyone works who has an able body in some other countries. It's an honor to work. They don't have an education system like we do. Other countries are very different in their ideals, values, ethics, and ways. I'll end my rant there, but I think becoming enlightened is important, and we can't do that if we only view the world as Americans.
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
Some sound advice would be to treat people equally. When you do that, you don't need to worry about what their gender or age is. I for one don't curse, tell nasty immature jokes, or do anything else that may show disrespect to others or make me look ill-mannered, or degrade me as a human being. If you need to alter your speech to not offend a particular party, it's likely that that speech wasn't needed to begin with. It's a rule I live by, and has served me well.
Since I first started playing MMORPG's with DAoC, I've almost always assumed a person is a she if it's a female avatar. Hell, the first person I met in DAoC was a female Paladin and was a real woman IRL. Some are obvious males, but those who aren't, I just assume they are female. But it really doesn't matter, because WHY does it matter if they are really female or male? Are you going to treat them differently? If so, reread paragraph one. Bottom line, there's no reason for ME to know the gender of the people playing, because it has no bearing on my game. I treat people the same, and I sure as hell don't try and date them.
Wait ... I just thought about this for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO. So, what is all the concern about? You know that the bulk of the player base are going to have submit photos or webcam shots simular to this one:
Hmm yeah but there is one problem, games arent meant for cyber sex.......no offense intended but if you want to cyber find a chat room to do it :) or an adult oriented game. Personally given the choice id rather not spend hours stareing at a male characters butt. Haveing a female rear in the middle of my screen is actually less disturbing and makes it easier to play.
Admittedly though i only design female characters i would find attractive (probably why ive never had a dwarf character in WoW),but yeah i dont play to pick up girls :P
May your gear always be "Purple" and you gold (or ISK or inf) be plentiful)
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
We were sent there, because our government suspected that there were hidden WMD's over there. After being there for two months, we got the word that we were going to liberate the middle east and make their governments democracy. I left there at the end of May 2003, after the war officially was ended, so I have no idea what reasons they're telling troops now to keep their morale up.
Next up: Chinese law dicates you have to prove you have udders, horns, hooves and fur in order to be allowed to play a Tauren.
There's a very easy solution to all of this: No one roll a female character! Men won't have to prove they're men, and women won't have to prove they're not men.
In asian MMOs, it's very common for there to be a "sex" lock on your account... I remember back when I first played iRO (waaaaay back in the day, when it was still in "beta"), I was shocked to learn that because I had stated I was female when I signed up for an account, I couldn't roll anything aside from a female character. But for them, they take the whole in-game dating/marriage thing a lot more seriously than we do out here.
Still, requiring girls/women to submit photos of themselves to play female avatars? I'm sure some girls would, just because they'd then be in high demand in-game, especially since I'd think that a lot of girls would rather just roll a male character and then "prove" their sex to any partner they meet. Personally though, I'd just rather play a gay male character and not have to flash my bewbies at random strangers/game developers who WANT you to show them off.
@ The guy who speaks differently around women / children. That seems perfectly acceptable. There are things I will say to men my own age that I wouldn't say to children or women. I can understand his point of view .
Though I've played WoW for a long while and only met two girls that had male characters. I've met at least 30 guys with female characters and a couple hundred who just had male characters. The most distrubing of which was being forced to listen to some redneck on vent go on about how hot his female character was looking in her "Rp" outfit.
There is tolerable; (Mithra in FFXI, guys who make chicks with obviously male names) weird; (guys playing blood elf chicks with names like Annastasia) and creepy (guys that "Rp" as their blood elf chick named Annastasia)
Yes there are tons of excuses. Demarc01 has some very viable reasons. Perhaps my opinions are due to my immaturity. I just don't buy into a lot of excuses people use. That means I don't understand why you would do it, and people always fear what they don't understand.
Whoah there.
I gave an explination as to why I have been known to play a female Avatar, but I stipulated that although I may play a female Avatar I "never" try to pass myself off as a female. All my guildmates and friends know I am male, anyone I group with generally gets told that myself and my *wife* are sat next to each other as we play together. (Habbit I formed pretty fast to stop kids hitting on my wife as soon as she says hi over com's) I freely use IGV and Vent and never try to hide my true gender.
Now I can understand people really wanting to get "into a role" when playing a cross gender character, although I'm of the opinion that would be a very very small minority. The others, as far as I can tell, are pretending to be female for other reasons .. usually gains within the game system bestowed by other unsuspecting players.
I would'ent go so far as to say that all people who really adopt a cross sex character to the fullest are "wierd pervs" though .. some have real reasons for it (Yes exploring thier sexuality is a real reason) but I'd wager that most who put on this act do it for other less noble motives.
Its the internet ... anonimity rules, just becareful who you trust out there.
Sidenote - the redneck saying how "hot" his Avatar was .. thats a whole nother level of wierd and sexually frustraighted IMO.
Love the Frankenfurter image!
The following is in response to the situation, not aimed at the author of the article.
Sounds like someone high-up, muckity-muck, or one of their male family/friends found out that the little hot piece o'tail he ruined his keyboard over was biologically male.
Maybe they met, maybe it was a huge joke on someone, perhaps someone clued someone in that his "she" was really a "he".
Someone lost face big time and is blaming players.
Boo-hoo big boy, go wash your hands, get a new keyboard, and stop trying to chase tail on the 'net before you actually meet the person.
fgs, I thought they only let adult intelligence people run corporations nowadays!
My advice to this overly-quick-to-rant author is that he attempt to understand the context of this situation with this developer. Especially when dealing with a culture that has always been much different than ours, situations like this can be easy to misread. I seriously doubt this mmo dev made the decision on a whim. I doubt they would have made this decision if they thought all their players would feel the same way as our indignant crusador of political correctness. Hey, if they found good reasons to force male players to play only male toons and their player base pretty much supports their decision than guess what... they aren't stupid and it's not a dumb decision. And if they are actually just saying "F YOU!" to the rest of the world then good for them. At least someone out their has balls enough to do something about what they find ridiculas in their world which, in this case, is idiot male players playing female chars.
I think that playing same sex and watching a man ass all the time you play as a male is a gay.
I like girls so I always play with female chars.
Nice insight. So why were you over there killing them?
While I personally dont agree with the "war on terror" bullshit that is pumped out by the US gov. I support the troops 100%
The whole thing is a media whitewash, the affair was handled badly from the get-go and the excuses and justifications pumped out were lie upon lie. That being said the troops over there had nothing to do with that and were just good people put into a bad situation. They did what they had to do and have my total respect.
If Nate, god-forbid, did have to fire upon people over there I'm sure it was'ent a thing that was taken lightly and he was simply doing what he had to in that situation. The blame falls far from him and the other troops sent over.
I find it a little off putting that you can ask that of him when you know full well the answer. Nate did'ent decide to invade, he just did what he had to.
All I can say is that someone up there must have been heartbroke by a "female" character lol...
good article lol
MMO's are not supposed to be real in any way. It's one thing to get to know someone on vent but to care about weather someone is a girl or not just by their toon is flat out stupid.
Yes I have been fooled by a guy rping a girl before but I thought it was super hilarious not offensive. It's not like I'm going to take them out on a date. I mean it's ones and zeros people. This is the internet and not a singles bar. Treat people with respect and they will treat you with respect no matter what gender they are. Taking yourself too seriously in a game no less is a sign of lack of maturity and sanity; and hey we all have our moments but where is the internet stamp that says everything on the internet is real. Even if there was such a stamp it would not be prudent to take it as fact just because it is on your monitor.
But in all reality the policy changes nothing because you can fake anything over the internet. So who even cares lol.
i prefer to look at girls.
thus my characters tend to be female *shrugs*
Wasting your time mate, I've been saying this for pages .. seems people would rather rant about "Those stupid Chinese" than actually try to see a different cultural viewpoint.
Its been a long thread though .. but I'm out. Maby you can get some of them to actually think about the impact on the target audiance rather than the impact it would have on them, even though its not even proposed for the western market.
Peace.
You are not just looking at a "girl" (girl avatar actually but that is beside the point). You are controlling a girl avatar. It is not like watching a movie with a women in it, because you are in fact controlling this character.
Now if you are a man, why would you want to do that (beside for roleplaying reasons)?
But to be honest I really dont care why you are doing it, I just think it would be nice to know that the person I am talking to, and playing with is a girl or a man because as I mentioned in another post. Men and women are different (not better or worse, different) and as such men tend to act different among women and vice versa.
I mean just last night, I was playing Aion, and a female avatar walked up to me and was doing the dance emote. Now I usually dont dance with guys and since this female avatar most likely is a man then I just ignored him/her and moved on. Was it a women I would have acted differently.
Silly example I know, but just an example to how you may act differently if you know if that person is indeed a guy or a women. Also, I for some reason, act nicer towards women than men. Like if a guy, who is a stranger, need some help I usually dont help him but if a women does it I am more inclined to do it. That is just how I am raised (and probably many others) but in MMORPGS since I have no idea if that guy really is a guy or that women really is a women I just assume they are all guys and act accordingly (since majority of MMORPG gamers I heard are guys).
So what I am trying to say, I think it is good to know the gender of someone you are interacting with.
Wasting your time mate, I've been saying this for pages .. seems people would rather rant about "Those stupid Chinese" than actually try to see a different cultural viewpoint.
Its been a long thread though .. but I'm out. Maby you can get some of them to actually think about the impact on the target audiance rather than the impact it would have on them, even though its not even proposed for the western market.
Peace.
Yeah, you know if they weren't "chinese" we wouldn't get away with defending them whatsoever. Imagine the backlash if it was an euro/american company that tried what they did. OMG!
Cheer up. It's a beautiful thing to be vocal against the consesus.
It's really a form of discrimination and sexual harassment against women. I mean, let's distill it down to what it is: If you're a girl show me your pussy or you can't play. Whatever rationalization or justification the developers give is irrelevant.
Imagine this for a second. You get up early one morning and on your way to the kitchen to make some breakfast you see your mom....or your sister....with their pants down holding the webcam over their vagina. Who the hell is okay with that but some sick person.
This has turned into an argument over guys play male toons so they must be gay, bla bla bla. No, the argument is actually more fundamental than that, it's a question of women being forced to do something demeaning to participate in the same thing that a male does. It's discriminatory and demeaning.
I love my female cleric...if I'm ever forced to stop playing her I'll likely quit MMOs and go to single players so I can make all the female toons I want.
Totally unrealistic imo. Us males can play whatever gender we want!
Point 1 - "Show me your pussy or you can't play"
Odd but i did'ent see that anywhere. The method of proof required was'ent stated because the writer could'ent bother his lazy arse to do some research. As far as we know all it requires is a valid credit card (Your sex is linked to your credit card account btw) Your just taking the worst possible case and running with it, the same as the OP infured. Its called media-hype .. learn to see past it.
Point 2 - "Can't play"
/sigh Did you even read the artical at all? Female gamers are free to play males with no sex verification required. So to say they can't play if they dont verify it totally wrong again. Discrimination against women? Ok so lets get this straight. Woman can play male characters no problems as can males. Women who verify thier sex (Again ... less of the show us your pussy talk and be reasonable .. credit card? Passport? Fucking DRIVERS LICENSE?) can play females but males never can. According to you thats discrimination against women? Err ok, rock on genius.
Hey.. I hate people who choose to play a character of the opposite gender WITHOUT stating their real gender. Why? Because they're lying when they do it (I hate liars & being deceived). It is very annoying for me to find out after x months of discussion that the guy I talked with is actually a girl or vice versa. My mental image of the person gets almost nulled and I end up forgetting various personal traits the person had.
I think I should point out that I'm a straight male who's never used a female character in a multiplayer game before. Nor have I ever wanted to date anyone I've talked with on the internet.
So for me this is a good thing.
Although I am not a fan of the webcam aspect. Find a better way to do it please..
Edit: I read the post above mine. Credit cards would work..
OMG is about all I can say at this point.
No where is has it been said that this is planned for the western market. Yes, for the western market it is totally unrealistic. We are not talking about the western market though. Try to expand your world view and look at this from the Chinese perspective. The OP was trying to stir up a hornets nest and he did ... try and see past that rubbish though and understand the real picture here.
Nothing to do with the western market or the games we play.
Only relevent to the Chinese market place.
Now if you want to enter a discussion about that, how it effects that market, how the people there feel about it, is it just a media ploy, thats fine. If you want to carry on waving a pitch fork and chanting about how it wont fly in your game (when they never even looked sideways at your game to begin with) then ignore me and carry on ... its a witch after all so BURN IT!
If you're silly enough to cybersex at all, why the hell would you care if it was a man or woman? It could be a monkey on the other end, but as long as you think it's a beautiful woman, then who the hell cares?
Hahaha I liked the webcam picture of the gina idea. OR maybe they could do something like this picture here...
Just a thought
Point 1 - "Show me your pussy or you can't play"
Odd but i did'ent see that anywhere. The method of proof required was'ent stated because the writer could'ent bother his lazy arse to do some research. As far as we know all it requires is a valid credit card (Your sex is linked to your credit card account btw) Your just taking the worst possible case and running with it, the same as the OP infured. Its called media-hype .. learn to see past it.
Point 2 - "Can't play"
/sigh Did you even read the artical at all? Female gamers are free to play males with no sex verification required. So to say they can't play if they dont verify it totally wrong again. Discrimination against women? Ok so lets get this straight. Woman can play male characters no problems as can males. Women who verify thier sex (Again ... less of the show us your pussy talk and be reasonable .. credit card? Passport? Fucking DRIVERS LICENSE?) can play females but males never can. According to you thats discrimination against women? Err ok, rock on genius.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
OMG is about all I can say at this point.
No where is has it been said that this is planned for the western market. Yes, for the western market it is totally unrealistic. We are not talking about the western market though. Try to expand your world view and look at this from the Chinese perspective. The OP was trying to stir up a hornets nest and he did ... try and see past that rubbish though and understand the real picture here.
Nothing to do with the western market or the games we play.
Only relevent to the Chinese market place.
Now if you want to enter a discussion about that, how it effects that market, how the people there feel about it, is it just a media ploy, thats fine. If you want to carry on waving a pitch fork and chanting about how it wont fly in your game (when they never even looked sideways at your game to begin with) then ignore me and carry on ... its a witch after all so BURN IT!
So the Chinese have less right to free choice?, did the players complain about being given the choice? Why would you want to justify tyranny based on race or nationality??
I love all the comments on western vs eastern philosophy and just because 'we westerners don't get it' doesn't make it wrong.
I'm not saying its wrong....but it eastern authorities have to make a rule to enforce a philosophy, then apparently the eastern masses 'don't getting it' either.
EDIT: corrected my horrible grammar lol was late for a meeting!
Imagine how disappointed they'll be when they find out she's not an elf!
I mean, seriously. You *know* that no one looks like their avatar -- in most games, it's not even possible to come close, given limited hair/body styles.
And I have to love the "Oh noes! What if I find out I've been cybering with a GUY? Will I get AIDS?" response from the usual morons. Dude, even if the person you're cybering with is female, odds are good she doesn't look like a Blood Elf. And nothing else you think you know about her is verifiably true. Maybe she is a 19 year old hot bisexual coed with a roommate that likes to fondle her while she's cybering you. And maybe she's a 40-something working mom with two screaming kids and no husband who likes to remember back when she really was young and hot, or she just likes someone treating her like she is, even if it's all a fantasy. And as for you, guys... do you REALLY tell the truth, the whole truth, when some "hot elf babe" asks what you look like in real life? Or do you drop a few inches from your waist and then add them to your... height? Lie about your income? Your martial status? Your accomplishments?
Cybersex is, by defnition, a lie. You're writing a story with someone else. Nothing about it is true, anymore than any other work of fiction is true. Tell me, if you found out that some "true" letter to Penthouse written by a supposed hot chick was, in fact, cranked out by some 50-something male editor looking to fill column space, would you suddenly feel your gender identity threatened because you wanked to it? If yes, then, dude, better look for a place in Greenwich Village or the Castro, 'cause 99% of porn written by 'women' is actually written by men. (You can always tell porn written by women. It's got 'feelings' and 'emotions', not Hot Throbbing Tab A sliding into Pulsing Engorged Slot B.) If not, then, cybering with a guy is no different. He's not really a hot elf chick, and YOU'RE not really 6'8" of hard-muscled man-meat. Get over yourselves.
(And, frankly, if you're that easily squicked, odds are good you've got some Unresolved Issues. Might want to deal with them.)
There's a guy behind every MMO female character until otherwise proven in vent is what I say.
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
And, no, banning people from online games isn't the same as murder. However, once you begin with the "We mustn't judge other cultures" crap, the slope is pretty darn slippery and I've never encountered anyone who can define a point where they say, "OK, it's safe to judge them now." Either there are absolute human rights which no culture should violate, regardless of their "traditions" or "beliefs", or everything's fair game. Is there an absolute human right to play an RPG? No -- these are private games and if a game company wants to mandate that you can only play if you're a brown-haired Taurus with no beard, then, that's their right. However, the fact they've got a right to do it doesn't mean I can't say, "Damn, that's STUPID."
The game company has a right to set whatever rules they wish for access to their property. And everyone else has a right to call them fracking morons for doing so and point, laugh, and jeer at them. (And to do the same to anyone who squeaks about 'tolerance' and 'understanding'. They're MORONS. Period.)
There's a guy behind every MMO female character until otherwise proven in vent is what I say.
You're aware real-time voice changing technology gets better every day, right? :)
OK, we can go to webcams... but even then, five years from now, you'll have real-time image filtering.
Playing a character of a sex other than your own is called "gender bending" (I'm sure most of you know this, I'm just saying it for the sake of those who don't). As most MMOs show player avatars from the rear, the "gender benders" are mostly resolutely heterosexual males who'd "rather look at a female behind than a male one". Also, such people seldom gender bend their first character in the game - they do it with their second or third, for the sake of variety. And they would certainly never lie about their RL gender if asked.
This means that, ironically, by effectively banning gender bendng, the "Chinese company" in the article is virtually guaranteed to scare off gamers who are not only the most "testosterone rich", but also the most dedicated. They'll just go and play something else. Leaving the company with a bancruptsy it deserves.
Of course, there may be a very small minority of males who play as females simply to phantasize about being the opposite sex. For such a man, faking his "gender verification" results is peanuts - he'll just put his sister in front of his webcam for a day instead of himself. Most likely though, he wouldn't be bothered - and leave like any other guy.
I personally don't give a crap whether the toons are male or female IRL because I'm not going to cyber with them anyway.
Most of the time I create females myself, because 1) I like watching the backside, and 2) I am no longer immersed by any game to the point that I believe I am my character.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
Point 1 -
but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
And from this you get "show them your pussy"? Not smile infront of a webcam? Not show your passport to the webcam? Your an odd person. Maby they want you to sit at a webcam and show ID to prevent you having your sister or neighbour sit there for you? Maby they would like to see a picture of your ID and you together to ensure there was no scam? OMG way to far fetched .. obviously they just want to see your pussy. I think your the one being a little extrem here no?
Instead of jumping on the "omg chinese are the debil" band wagon you may wanna try and look past the bias in the article, Its written to cause outrage to the reader (Western game player) and if you cant tell that then you should have stayed on in school past 3rd grade. Your refusing to look at it from any view point other than your own massivly biased one though, so any argument directed towards you is like talking to a wall.
Point 2 -
Ahh. So exclusion totally is not discrimination where as proving you are what you say you are is? Thats your point?
You can't ride the ride unless your 5' ... so if your under 5' thats not discrimination but if your over 5' and have to pass the nice hight line that is discrimination? Rite?
Hate to say it matey but your gonna be asked to prove your who you say you are alot as you go through life. Thats not discrimination though thats just the way the world works. A game company doing this is not a far strech to me. My CC company insisted that I was who I said I was before they gave me a line of credit .. should I sue since they discriminated against me by making me prove it?
The fact that females have the option to play a female Avatar and males do not ever have that option means that the discrimination is on the male side. Maby you shold google discrimination.
"Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection"
Odd but its the males in this case that are excluded or rejected .. the females, as long as they abide by the game's rules (Proving they are female) are not excluded. Now if you want to bring up some anal argument about the game rules being sexist because women have to prove they are who they say they are then we can go around in circles somemore. Bottom line is though that your not looking at it from thier cultural perspective .. 106 men - 100 women. Dont sound alot does it? With a population of 1.3 billion though that means around 400.000 males in china are destined not to find a mate ... opens a whole world of online scams if you can "pretend" to be a single female looking for a husband among a slew of young single chinese males online huh?
Thats not to say that this is the reason for this move, I am just more inclined to look for reasons why they would feel this is a good thing to do rather than assume that they simply want to see some pussy (Which after all they can find in seconds with a half decent browser .. although its prob censored knowing the chineses gov.)
Back at ya, Genius.
Point 1- Maybe you should read the article. Here's a quote from the OP:
This company cares so deeply that not only are they freezing the accounts of any male players who may have happened to have created female toons, but they are even going so far as to require "gamers who chose female characters to prove their biological sex with a webcam."
Taking a webcam shot of you holding your Driver's License or other Government I.D. is a perfectly valid way of proving your Biological Sex. Quite a few dating sites require that sort of proof.
I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?
Seeing as MMOs to the Chinese are roughly equivalent to social networking sites in the USA, I don't honestly see it as that big an issue.
Point 2- Anyone playing a female toon must show proof of their gender. Since males are excluded from playing female toons as is their policy, only women wishing to play a female toon would be subjected to this policy. So yes it is discriminatory. Back at you, genius.
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives. You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.
Honestly, it's even more discriminatory to men. This is sort of a subversive way of routing out what they view as, "homosexual, or deviant sexual behaviour". Women being discriminated against is more or less collateral damage.
Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.
Oh wow, just wow. I want to see how long this will fly before profits go through the floor! I'mma gal, I like to play male toons because their armor looks better (how about a rant on that? Why do the chick toons look so flippin punny!! Give me a buff Chick, damned it!). Even though I would be exempt from this absurdly rediculous & strangely child-like rule....why would I support a gaming company with such a rule? It goes against my principle of live & let live. If any game I play suddenly institutes this rule of "prove your sex", they won't be getting my support anymore.
Anyways, I would never expect to see this in todays world, but since we are seeing it....as the dude put it "thomeone has thexuality ithues!" Totally. Someone tell that CEO to go get some theropy so he will stop taking it out on the people that flipping pay him his paycheck. Wow, just wow.
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?
First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.
I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
And, no, banning people from online games isn't the same as murder. However, once you begin with the "We mustn't judge other cultures" crap, the slope is pretty darn slippery and I've never encountered anyone who can define a point where they say, "OK, it's safe to judge them now." Either there are absolute human rights which no culture should violate, regardless of their "traditions" or "beliefs", or everything's fair game. Is there an absolute human right to play an RPG? No -- these are private games and if a game company wants to mandate that you can only play if you're a brown-haired Taurus with no beard, then, that's their right. However, the fact they've got a right to do it doesn't mean I can't say, "Damn, that's STUPID."
The game company has a right to set whatever rules they wish for access to their property. And everyone else has a right to call them fracking morons for doing so and point, laugh, and jeer at them. (And to do the same to anyone who squeaks about 'tolerance' and 'understanding'. They're MORONS. Period.)
Haha talk about taking it to the limit.
Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?
Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces. For example I am not too fond of lopping peoples hands off for theiving yet I cant deny that theft is rarer where they do ... thats an extrem example a more mild one is that a certian country in Europe insists that all male citizens serve "National service" and after service they are assigned an assult rifle ... near every home in said county has an assult rifle and a trained male user inside. I dont agree with that either .. although I cant deny that violent crime there is the lowest in Europe. Neither have anything to do with the rules of a video game though !!!
Cultural differences are what make the world an interesting place to live in. Embracing them enriches us all. Thats not to say that I like the Chinese Gov. Its a totalitarian regim and has masses of flaws .. but culture is more than just govenment and laws.
You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.
Saying all of that .. sure you can say "damm thats stupid" all you want. My issue with the article and the writer is he made no attempt to garner any input from the people it does effect. Where is the outrages chinese gameplayer quoted? For all we here in the west know its a welcome addition in China and they are very happy to see it. Thats my point about culture difference. I read the article and thought .. OP is an idiot, hes massivly biased and made no attempt to educate himself in anyway about how this impacted the people effected. He wrote the story with vague inuendos (Hence the droves of "they just wanna see the pussys" threads) and stired up his target audiance.
This was never a suggested "feature" for the western market (Although the OP never bothered to mention that the company has made no indication that it ever intends to add this to any western launch) yet the OP knew the reaction it would garner. Instead of making his article useful and suggesting a discussion about why this would never work for a western market, or suggesting reasons why the chinese market would entertain this ider, he left it vague in order to stir people up. As is evidenced by the posts in this thread about how silly an ider it is and how the western market wont stand for it .. not in my game .. etc etc. No shit. The article is media-hype to garner a negitive responce from the reader-base. And it has. +1 point OP.
Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?
Since about 3/4 of all female avatars are played by male players I just consider all of them male until proven otherwise.
Never understood the male proclivity to playing a female avatar.
MMORPG - Many Men Online, Role Playing Girls
GIRL - Guy In Real Life
Words to live by when dealing with female avatars in online games.
I could care less, I usually play male characters, but have rolled a few female ones from time to time. (but never try pretend to be female in any way)
Lots of reasons why this company might have wanted to enforce such a rule, most of us wouldn't agree with it and therefore won't play the game..
Interesting topic to discuss, and an entertaining thread to read even though it took quite a while. (slow day at work fortunately)
This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?
First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion. You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.
I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Dude the girls you know need to quit playing with little boys. Seriously I have been part of a bunch of guilds/corporations, I have run about half of them and ALL of them had a strict female friendly policy. The groups also have PG limit on chat so that could be part of it.
A mature gaming group does not care if the player is male or female.
First of all there will be no showing of vaginas, that is complete fabrication. Second of all you are required to show proof of your gender in many kinds of activities, inluding sports, so this is unheard of.
Also it cannot be considered discrimiation since males (trying to play female chars) will need to prove their gender as well. This is just getting blown way out of proportion. The check could simply be to check the gender of the person holding the credit card or registered as account owner. Who knows and why is it so important?
They provide a service and you are required to not misrepresent your true gender. Dont like it then dont use their service. In many sports you are required to prove your gender, dont like it then dont participate.
I don't give a crap what other people play as, I just don't want to play as a woman. Which sucks in games like Diablo and Borderlands where your class and your sex are tied together.
Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.
You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.
I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.
On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.
As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.
The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*
Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.
In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.
Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.
When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.
That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?
I have lots of male and female toons in many different games. In most cases, such as my female human DK in WoW, I personally dislike the way that the male humans look and like the females better. I am the one that has to sit there and stare at my toon every time I play, why wouldn't I rather have an avatar that is more aesthetically pleasing. That means nothing whatsoever about my sexual preference or intentions- everyone I know knows who I am and who my characters are, and that's all that matters. In fact, we have many females in our guild, but twice as many female toons because many of the guys play them as well.
That said, I do agree with Ozmodan that I just assume that everyone I encounter in game, male or female, is a male until I learn otherwise ( I admit that I have come across a few who have been deceptive about age or gender). Overall, I couldn't care less. It's just an avatar, and it's just a game.
Seeing stupid stuff like this (and the arguments that follow it) remind me of my own MMO experiences.
For the record, my characters tend to be either gender, following a 50/50 ratio. Now does that somehow make me bisexual? Or perhaps sexually insecure? Strangely enough, it doesn't.
There's absolutely no reason to harp on people playing an avatar of the opposite gender. Notice that this is quite different from someone pretending to be something he's not for dubious reasons (such as getting free stuff, having fun at someone's expense, etc)
I think the problem stems from people who equate avatar gender with real gender and/or sexual orientation. To give you a very concrete example, lets go back in time when I was in the Meridian 59 beta (yep, a long time ago in MMO history).
I had made a female avatar named Red Sonja. Never once did I roleplay, I simply interacted with people the same way I do in real life. Yet somehow within a week I had received three marriage proposals because people interpreted me being sociable and generally nice to others as being a woman. Truly silly thinking, and a sign that some people take online interaction WAY too seriously.
I never led anyone on, I never lied to anyone, I never pretended to be a woman, I simply (naively) assumed people wouldn't try to hit on others. All the avatar gender insecurity comes from these types of people: it's the internet, there's no way to tell who you're dealing with at first glance. Whether they're male or female, pedophiles, racists, terrorists, policemen, the Pope or the President of the United States.
So people, stop assuming stuff about strangers and just enjoy the game you're playing. Internet friendship will never beat real life friendship, try it on for size.
Does this surprise anyone? The Chinese Government loves to put on a show for the outside world as to how far they have come...ie the Olympics, but the World knows better. They are a Communist country that controls every aspect of their citizens lives... At some point, the people will grow tired of it, and the internet will be the catalyst.
Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.
In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.
Ok to dissect your reply.
Personally I view it as an Article. Its supported by the website and posted by one of thier paid writers. Its may or may not be the opinion of some or all of the writers here but since its a paid for piece of work, published by this site to the public it is to me, an article. Much like an article in any newspaper. As such I would expect a certian amount of research to go into said piece and would expect the author to be able to back-up thier facts with proof of some kind.
Understanding thier culture as a whole is indeed irrelivent to the article. However understanding thier culture in relation to the content is relivent. Understanding how the system being discussed (The proof of sex) impacts the culture and why such a measure may or may not be received within said culture has a major impact on the article. Since the system being discussed (Proof of sex) is only for the Chinese market and no other (At this time) surly if you are going to discuss that system you have to do so within the culture that it is being introduced. To discuss the system outside of that culture has little meaning unless you identify that it is a hypothetical discussion, which the writer did not do. Therefore in order to fully discuss the ramifications of such a move one much understand the culture and taboos that it is being introduced to. Transfering the system to an outside culture really holds no bearing on how it will effect the culture its introduced to since they do not share the same viewpoints. (Wow how many times can I type culture in one paragraph :p )
Neither did I call people racist or Ignorent. Ignorance means to "not know better" which is not the case here. Just because people can not or will not look at things from a different view point neither makes them racist or ignorent. Just human and stubbon. Racist is very specific and I am not suggesting anyone here is racist. Ignorance is not knowing any better and I am working under the assumption that we are all adults here and have an understanding of empathy and trying to understand how the other side feels. So its not ignorance at all (Except maby for the very small minority here have not yet developed empathy for others and indeed need to rush to a shrink ASAP and get humanized!) Being unwilling to show empathy for another is neither racist or ignorent .. its cold .. its stubbon .. its human .. and yes I am accusing people who refuse to look at the other side of the coin as this. I've even admitted that I myself am guilty of refusing to see the other side at times .. we all do it we're human.
Yes people express opinions. Much as I am here. Difference is I try (Not saying I always succeed) but I try to see the other person, Culture, whatever's, point of view before I answer. This is something the OP did not do and I see nothing from the OP but a bias rant. He never explored the other side of the coin. Bare in mind he was paid for his article so I dont view it as a single mans opinion since it was sanctioned by this website and thus they own it.
In your opinion the OP is providing an opinion. Now that would be true if he was just another poster like you an me. He however was paid for an article and hence the website here has ownership of that. Hes representing them and they have to take ownership of that. Thats beside the point tho. Even if he was a single poster his level of bias is extreem. He wrote an article with out clarfiying that it has no impact on the western market (even though he was writing the article FOR the western market) and he took no effort to interview the people directly effected by this new system. For all was know the new system was screamed for by Chinese gamers and it a welcome addition to them. All we got from the article was a scare attempt that garnered the responces the OP was hoping for .. namly *not in my game* *rubbish in the west* etc etc. Of course he hoped for these responces and a high post count ... but the bottom line is this was never about the western game market. He could have made an interesting article sparking debate about why this would be a bad thing in the west, why it was a happening in China, what cultural differences can we see from this? Instead he turned to hate-mongering about those "Crazy Chinese" and waited for his post count .. blar.
That policy is stupid, its an epic failure, it will cost a lot of money for the company. Whatever culture you are in a Role-Playing Game is a Role-Playing Game. end of story.
A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters.
Yup, colored quotes are for shit. Useless method of communicating.
It's about our perception of China and our response to it.
Sorry I don't make special allowances for situations people create for themselves then perpetuate knowing they are wrong. The people who kill female infants know it's evil. It's a source of national shame. Yet they continue to do it. Maybe if they weren't so homophobic they would realize being homophobic is part of the problem. Being more homophobic isn't a solution to their problem.
Ridicule is the inevitable result of behaving stupidly. Eventually people catch on. They won't if everyone pretends stupidity is normal.
I apologize if I left out the parts that confirms you don't get it. I could really care less what their excuse for being stupid is when they're being stupid. The excuse is itself stupid.
Homophobia isn't necessary at any male population ratio. The male ratio being that high not only isn't necessary it's bioth illegal and tacitly encouraged. Such are the two faces of China. Gender idenification is a stupid policy being done for stupid reasons for stupid government people who don't even care if they do it. What could be smart about that?
People do not do such things anywhere in the United States without having the full force of the law brought down upon their heads. That was accomplished within ten years. Government policies can and do change overnight.
This rule crack me up. I ONLY play with fem characters..lol.... I dont give a fuck for what those dog eaters think, they are communists...
That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?
Nope. I have never played a female character in an online game, actually, mostly because I don't want horny idiots IMing me all the time. I do sometimes play females in paper&pencil RPGs, about 25% of the time, I'd guess.
Did you, by the way, read BEYOND the paragraph you quoted? Or did you just get all internet-flamey and reply without reading the bit where I said it was not a valid comparison and that a private company has the right to make whatever stupid decisions it wants, and I have the right to say they're stupid?
I find it interesting that most people on this forum seem to think, "If someone says this is dumb, it means he wants to force people to do things his way!" I think that says a lot about the mentality of the people who post here, and it's not very flattering. It is very possible -- essential in a free society -- to completely disapprove of things some people do while accepting that they must have the freedom to do them. If it were up to me, an awful lot of things which are currently illegal, and which I personally think are immoral or self-destructive, would be legal, because even if I don't like them, I don't have the right (nor does the government, acting as my proxy) to stop them.
Hell, look at your own reply. If I support cross-gender gaming, it MUST be because I do it, right? It's very... revealing. It would seem you can't imagine supporting something on the basis of principle or philosophy. In your world, apparently, one only supports or approves what one personally does.
Fascinating. Sickening, but fascinating.
How strange... I suppose it was only a matter of time really. I greatly appreciated the references to The Might Boosh however. :)
This really should be a case by case subject matter. Forcing this on all MMO's, I don't see a point, but...
I am an avid RP'er, but I am also an avid ahem, erm, lover of women. I admit I have come to know a few ladies over the Internet on MMORPGs and made really great friends and more that way as well. That all being said I assume all male characters to be female, BUT if they are playing an RPG game they should expect for male characters to actively seek their friendship. It's what guys do, arguing that men should not try and form relationships online is just as bad as saying men should not play female characters.
The severe problem I have run into is when men promote themselves as women, even if they are a man in real life. There have been three cases in my own span of playing MMO's online in the last 14 years or so. I don't know where they get off on doing this, maybe it's just to mess with people, but it's really not enjoyable.
ERP between characters? I do not ask a character's gender unless they start to try and get to know me OOC. I leave all the in character stuff between the characters. I have found that many emotions spill over from character to out of character. I had a character in WoW that I enjoyed role-playing, he was the leader of the second largest guild of the server so he was well known, and had a girlfriend in game. We became friends outside the in game relationship, and yes she was a woman in real life and even had a boyfriend and I had a girlfriend. Long story short, I had him end the relationship and it broke her heart in real life. Not only did it break her heart it screwed up some of the in game guild stuff which aggravated me.
So, I can see why they may want to do this for their game. Maybe it is more like a dating type game, maybe they have more explicit material in the game (I know Second Life has all sorts of people in it though). Most people seem to think of an MMO as just a game with many people playing it and shouldn't care about gender, but I disagree. Gender is a very big issue in game and outside of game. Maybe they to try and keep the drama to a minimum, but the choice is theirs at it is their game. We can banter back and forth all day, but it is their property and they can do with it what they will.
I've only played one female character - and even RP'ed her too. I enjoyed giving guys a really hard time being a crazy orc warrior woman but kept her strictly out of any type of relationship. Also remember one of my tanks playing a male orc warrior was actually female underwear model, distinctly remember her from the pictures she sent me...
While I disagree with people playing opposite genders, I'm not going to force them to play their own gender...
Dog taste good
If they want to force gender this badly they can do like some games do and set the gender to the account's gender, it will just be equally falsifiable as their webcam joke and give them less work, and even then i find it very stupid to force a gamer to choose their specific gender in RL, i like women, i like playing women characters, they look sexier, and that's bloody natural, and i'm not going to molest/flirt/secks up any players because i'm playing a game not a social network for dating, this decision to force players to choose their real gender is so <insert the degrading term that you wish here>.
Beside, who in their bloody mind would go thru all this just to play one of those copy-cat grinding fantasy games? Yea most of the games are like that, it would have to be outstandingly good to even bother, seriously, they are only cutting their community.
It's China...what can I say?
This is a Great idea that I have often wished implemented. I remember way back in the day, guys playing girls getting special treatment just for pretending to be a girl. Maybe its not for every MMO, but I think a game deseigner should have the option to implement such a thing without getting flammed. Most games have all kinds of crazy rules, and don't get half as flammed. This is not as bad as lets say. XP Debt or Deleveling, this is just a flavor option and doesn't really effect game play. Also I'd like it if the news presented was a little more objective. I don't want to hear totally biased updates.
Once again an authoritarian organization (the game company) attempts to tighten its fist to exercise control over people without realizing their "verfication" process is totally flawed.
Most homes have a female in them, most men know or have a female friend (gay or straight).
Simply have a female register the frickin account and sit in the video teleconference to assure the control-freaks a woman owns the account. I own MMO's but I'm not the only one in my house that uses the accounts.
Anyone with a smidgen of intelligence knows these rules are just plain silly and are easily worked around.
Remember, there's always a loophole. Cheers.
So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault. Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues. Guys have been playing female toons like forever. Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider? Thought so. Nobody thought anything of that did they. So why make a big deal out of this. If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them. All this article is is sensationalism. Come on...this is not worthy of an article. This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up. ::sigh::
The diminutive 'little hearts desire' was a bit precious, and 'pose' is loaded, especially in view of the tone of the rest of the article (where freedom to roleplay any (possibly silly) thing one is not inside an MMORPG was defended in sterling fashion) but aside from those trivial (probably unconscious) slips, I caught no serious hint that the Author was trying to rag on my gender in particular.
(Of course, consider that I've never read anything he's written before.)
It is sensationalistic to a degree, but then again, if we in the rest of the world do not point out where China's culture is being stupid and where and how their institutions are enforcing that stupidity, who will? Think about it. Probably not anyone in China, even those there who would like to. Maybe we owe it to everyone to complain if we feel like it, just because we (still) can.
As trivial as this seems, it is an intolerable thing. The fact that people including women who wish to play male 'toons are exempt NOW from compliance is just an oversight, easily "remedied" as in perpetrated on every client for this game as soon as someone remembers to be fair about mandating something fundamentally unfair. I'd like to be confident that the choice if not the voice of the consumer would consign the idea to the trash, but am not.
Further on the downside, the rest of the world (vs. China) probably constitutes (or soon will constitute) a minority of the market, and so it matters even less than it should what we rest think.
No wait! you made me think about it for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO, so what's all the concern about? The male avatars are every bit as feminine as female avatars.....everyone is playing a woman.
*Don't take me seriously - just kidding*
To all forum posters.
Please no more posts about which sex may be "superior" and no more posts putting down the other sex. Also if you have a issue with what has been said please use the report tool and don't respond to the post in question.
Cheers
AnimusChaser
But my response to the sexist was funny! /wink
I don't see the big issue really, characters are usually equal no matter what the sex of the character.
In fact while I could not care less I can see the argument for such a choice to limit sexuality. if a company is directing the game to children then it would be in their interests to avoid unnecessary challenges of sexuality for youth, as well as avoiding any possible misunderstandings between players. In a sense they are caring for those who have trouble caring for themselves.
Saying this points out the obvious dilemna most westerners have, that it is someone telling you what to do, and this is what I think has got up most people's panties (boxers?). Because we have previously been given freedom to make a choice then the removal of that freedom seems worse. Basically, If you had never been given the option in the first place, would you care now? My guess is that there would be half the amount of naysayers if that were the case.
Ignorance is bliss.
I don't think that is the issue - really what the issue is that business yet again show they have to much power over certain things.
Sure people may say well its their company, its their rules, yet going to lengths as banning people because simply they play a female character and not be female in real life? Seem rather bad business practice since they are loosing allot of business and business is money.
Yet going agree with someone above, since they don't force the same rules on females playing males that this is clearly a personal issue that was drawn into business. There is no reason other then that someone high up must be playing the game. Either they had a bad experience were they were dating someone online and found out they were not who they were claiming or they are very very against guys playing females.
I am willing to believe the first one. Since it just seems rather odd.
Over all they just going hurt their own business and sure would like to see an American company pull that hehe oh that would be a nice month of media right there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also for Haratu why is it just western culture? Do you really think the guys that were ban, or told they had to play male or get out did not have an issues or dilemmas themselfs?
Face it it happen in Asia which last I checked was in the east.
Also it not as simple as you put it for one they are allowing females to have a choice still. So its not just black and white, but shades of grays.
It wouldn't be communist if people have choices, is it? Just saying...
1 im male, from birth to grave.
2 i play female charactors, from runescape, eq, eq2, wow, 100's of fee mmo's.
3 im not in any way attracted to guys.
4 i play a female charactor typically due to either the male charactor looking well, stupid, or and heres my typicall reasion, i just dont care to look at an overly mussled guys arse for the 400 hours it takes to get to the level cap in most games. i mean really it would make me feel uncomfertable to look at that for that long. i know its just pixles but if the pixles didnt matter then this entire story thread and discussion wouldnt happen.
5 bottem line i think its more homosexual in nature to play a male charactor and be stuck in third person looking at that, then to play a sexy little nympho looking female charactor who at least in my long hours of running from one city to one dungon after another at least makes my screen more appleaing in the process. after all how many strate guys have pictures of a guys butt on their desktop, more likely you got a gloryous womans behind sitting on that screen when you exit your game.
Jon Wood as always a wonderful read with insite and facts displayed equilly.
Haha, I have always assumed every female avatar was a guy until i could confirm their voice. I don't have any numbers but I'm certain that there are way, way more guys playing female avatars that actual females. I really don't care but I certainly don't take for granted that just because its a female toon that its actually a girl.
All I could do was laugh when I heard of this...
Its the best thing I have seen all year, except that kid who tried sueing over some MMO account banning.
I play as female characters sometimes because I like the outfits they wear. Like in city of heroes, theres so many possiblities with female characters. thers billions of ways to make a skimpy outfit for gals. but for guys, its either regular clothes, tights or armor. I'd never wear these things, so why make a character in my image? I instead make cool looking girls that are easy on the eyes.
the only people who hit on girls are 12 year olds and retarded 30+ year olds. Theres also the sad lonely 20ish year olds sometimes, they are slow in the head. You can tell by the way they speak.
As long as this doesn't become a trend I dont see what the big deal is about this one company. If it did, I could probably get away with being a girl if i put on some make up or something since i still look like i'm 15 or 16 and have long hair and no creepy mustache. As long as I dont have to speak, lolz
Jon Wood, I think you are over reacting a bit, rather not looking at the larger picture. First, we have to accept and understand there is a thing called a cultural model. This decision by the developers and or publisher falls under china's cultural model. Second we have to accept that games and society are worth analyzing. We cannot say it is a bad move on their part because we do not understand all the facets of that decision within society or how it will affect the game play experience. I personally love the decision. For one, it can set the game apart from a pure marketing stand point. No one is forcing anyone else to play the game, therefore that decision might attract a target audience instead. You also have to look at females in gaming. Would girls like to play with girls? Is this decision above reinforcing that by being able to identify a fellow female? Same with males. Games and society, even if decisions seem absurd, can reveal much about who and how games appeal to their target audience, who their target audience really is and if it works. Can we not claim that gender restriction is merely part of the rule set? The game mechanic? I think its absurd to dismiss their move as bad. It is neither good nor bad, unless you give value to doing something different. Remember, MMO's are largely social games. Studies have shown the average female is attracted to social games. How do you think that might play into this decision? Can it change the play experience and for the better? These are questions to ask, not dismiss.
There are two camps here, people who pretend they are the character they are playing and people like me who pretend I'm watching a movie where I choose what happens. I usually make female avatars because if I have to stare at an ass all day I'd like it to not be a man's ass. If its a non-human I don't care but I usually don't play guy characters.
The only people I can see as thinking this is a good thing, are the people that actually troll for chicks in an mmorpg. I could care less whether you're a male playing a female char or female playing a male char. It makes no sense. I guess we've all seen, at one time or another, gamers hitting on other gamers in an mmorpg. I rolled a female char a while back and it wasn't long before some player was chasing me around asking for my a/s/l. Pervs are pervs no matter what the environment. They are just free to be uber pervs when they're anonymous. Some though are curbed a bit by not knowing if the female char they want to flirt with is really a male. For some it doesn't matter. So doesn't this, if this rule is implemented here, just make it more difficult for female gamers to play without harrassment? Now pervs know for sure that theres a female playing and will be more relentless.
There was no point to writing this article. It's just a rant.
Although the company's policy is clearly one-sided and exploitable, kudos to them for challenging the gender confusion/bending that is becoming more and more prevalent in society. It may be misplaced, but hey, at least someone is doing something to challenge this crap somewhere.
If it stops one kid from going down the path to cross-dressing and becoming confused about their sexual identity, then fantastic.
We don't need any more "men" with wombs who decide it's okay to have kids after a sex change operation, or "chicks with dicks".
Yeah, it seems a lot of people here are unable to seperate the game from what is behind the screen, and instead take everything for face value. When I play mmos I just see a character as a player regardless of the gender. I will refer to that person under the toons pronouns until I find out either in vent or though them that they are of a different gender.
I also agree with you though I will also normally play female characters because they look better to me and have better animations. Playing a guys hoped up on steroids are not my idea of fun. I don't mind playing the male on the non-human races though such as the horde races from WoW, with the exception the blood elfs because of their manerisims. I figure if I am going to be looking at something for hundreds of hours might as well look at something apealing. I do think if they made male characters look a bit better then I would play them more often. I think that The Secret World might be a game I will have a hard time deciding which to play.
If the game offers "adult content" as in sex and violence themes then I can understand some measures in place but what I would do is ..
Allow all male and female to create an avatar of either sex
BUT
if they WISH to they can verify their gender this creates a basic FLAG that shows your gender was verified for whatever reason
OR
can continue to be unverifed of either sex
WHY
well this then caters for people that do want secruity doing kinky stuff online but doesnt affect the vast majority playing either. An option but not enforced basically.
Stare at an ass? I play only male characters and I cant remember I ever stared at my avatars ass.
If you are playing an MMORPG to stare at your avatars ass then I think you have some issues.
This issue has nothing to do with knowing if someone is really a girl when you play. It's about invading peoples right to privacy because of a GAME! What business is it of any game company what someones true identity is. That's like McDonalds asking for ID to buy a hamburger.
Other then billing info a game company has absolutely no right to invade your privacy. This is WAAAAAY overstepping boundries.
Soon we will all have our RFID chips anyways and all transactions will already have our full ID info.
Wake up people. STOP accepting things like this or just bend over pull the wool over and "baaaaa" for your handlers.
Every person effected by that insane rule should leave and speak up with their cash. If NO person accepts this in that game, it will be overturned.
I truely hope people resist this. It's only 1 more step in a terrible direction our world is heading.
So wait, are you suggesting that people are being forced to purchase this mmorpg and have their privacy invaded? Really? Did you know the latest anti-piracy protection software does that already? Thats besides the point. Marketing... if a game sells its product and markets it with the idea that "guys are really guys and girls are really girls"... then is that wrong? Its their product, their marketing strategy, and for all you know, it is going after the exact target audience they desired. This can actually be a good thing for them. You seem to think of it as though someone is spying on you. On the contrary, it is a product that people do not have to buy if they dont like its marketing strategy and rule set. In this case the game is a play environment the developers created and the rules of that play environment are true to gender. That is the PLAY environment, it doesnt have to be for everyone.
Ok Not saying this isnt true but is there any even remotely credible source to this story. i cannot for the life of me figure out where this piece of news is coming from beyond that seriously questionable JLM Pacific Epoch story from 2007
This would seems to be based on a random forum post on 17173.com
Beyond that there seems to be only the same original story repeated ad nauseum on numerus sites.
I know some people assume the worst of those "Crazy Chinese Bureaucrats" but seriously given the absurdity of the whole webcam id thing one would expect a somewhat more sturdy source (like say from SHANDA or Aurora for example) for this before going on a rant about it.
Just sayin..
:)
Chinese culture is very very conservative when it comes to sex. Who knows, they may actually have a market for this strict guide line. Besides that, its there company their rules. If people don't like it they can show them that by playing a different game. The free-market works in some regards.
I play female characters, I dunno I never like the look of a bulky male character. If MMO's started doing this(which they won't besides this one instance) I just would'nt play since its about my enjoyment.
So wait, are you suggesting that people are being forced to purchase this mmorpg and have their privacy invaded? Really? Did you know the latest anti-piracy protection software does that already? Thats besides the point. Marketing... if a game sells its product and markets it with the idea that "guys are really guys and girls are really girls"... then is that wrong? Its their product, their marketing strategy, and for all you know, it is going after the exact target audience they desired. This can actually be a good thing for them. You seem to think of it as though someone is spying on you. On the contrary, it is a product that people do not have to buy if they dont like its marketing strategy and rule set. In this case the game is a play environment the developers created and the rules of that play environment are true to gender. That is the PLAY environment, it doesnt have to be for everyone.
"if a game sells its product and markets with the idea that "guys are really guys and girls are really girls" then is that wrong?" But they aren't! Oh the girls are really girls alright but the guys maybe a guy OR a girl. Lesbian sex on-line anyone? I'm fast subscribing to the idea that some perv in the company got one of his eleven fingers burnt sticking it where it aught not to go in a Fantasy game. Pity he couldn't catch a virus doing it.
Privacy? Sorry but your gender is not a matter of your privacy, that is public information.
Besides it is their service and they have every right to ask you not to misrepresent your gender.
i think this policy gonna last a couple weeks max, otherwise people will probly move to another game lol
I don't understand the great need for some people to know whether or not I'm a guy or girl in real life. I have no desire to meet anyone in RL that I've met through playing an MMORPG. I have no desire to start an online relationship or cyber anyone in the game. I could be a sentient dog for all that matters. Nobody will ever know, because I'm not going to meet up anyway and since I'm married, I'm not even available to begin with. So what does it matter?
So to those people, all I can say is this. If you want to use a game as some sort of online dating service, fine with me, but don't come dictating what I can and cannot play because you're insecure about your own sexuality. If accidentally flirting with someone of your own sex while being pretty darn anonymous to begin with freaks you out that much, I suggest you just don't do it and completely ignore anyone who does. Oh and, given the high ratio of male-to-female in MMOs, you're better off looking elsewhere anyway (unless you're looking for a guy)... and no girl is going to fall for your epic raid gear and achievements... I can promise you that.
Jon writes his best when he's riled.
Why, exactly?
Great! now if they can weed out all the other dweebs with some kind of age check, maybe even a credit score to get rid of the trash, or maybe just getting rid of crossdressing guys will do the trick.
Conform to my point of view, otherwise I will force it! Yeah... and for all the American's supporting this policy... fantastic...
Chinese company acting Chinese... nothing to see here, and not really any loss, either.
Asians spend more time playing games so I can see how the convenience of killing electronic dragons while trolling for a real life mate might be an appealing concept... but not really.
I can't help but wonder how much harrassment and unwanted attention the in game females that are left will have to go through because of all of this.
Other Asian games have forced you to play whatever character your gender is, but to actually prove it via a webcam. That's completely insane. Just imagining all the weird stuff the developers could do... in game or out... that's some creepy stuff.
Good on Mr. Wood for taking a stand on the side of common sense, despite the overwhelming immaturity and lack of perspective of the opposition.
So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault. Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues. Guys have been playing female toons like forever. Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider? Thought so. Nobody thought anything of that did they. So why make a big deal out of this. If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them. All this article is is sensationalism. Come on...this is not worthy of an article. This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up. ::sigh::
Is Jon Wood a pre-pubescent teen? He writes like one. ( "bewbs" "freakin" ect.)
What the hell, try a little professionalism else no-one will take you seriously--except other 13 year olds.
Learn a little about how China views women, a bit about their politics and how women have been treated since the revolution. This is nothing new. I think the reality of Eastern politics met up with your politically correct ignorance and you flew off the handle. Reacted instead of researched. Get a grip.
--Shane
Waste of space.
I must say I found the writing style refreshing for a change and figured it was done on purpose to put some oomph behind it. To make it stand out and seem a bit ridiculous because... well, frankly... the whole thing is ridiculous to begin with.
I have seen the exact same writing style used on rare occasion in big national newspapers, so this is nothing new to me. I guess it's a matter of style, personal preference and how far someone has to go in order to grab someone's attention. If you're so concerned about professionalism though, I would suggest you leave out comments about 13 year olds. It comes across as being a very unprofessional argument since it's so utterly false to begin with.
Is Jon Wood a pre-pubescent teen? He writes like one. ( "bewbs" "freakin" ect.)
What the hell, try a little professionalism else no-one will take you seriously--except other 13 year olds.
Learn a little about how China views women, a bit about their politics and how women have been treated since the revolution. This is nothing new. I think the reality of Eastern politics met up with your politically correct ignorance and you flew off the handle. Reacted instead of researched. Get a grip.
--Shane
Waste of space.
Riiiight. Because your comments sound so much more professional. I mean calling someone 13 or a "kid" shows your a pro! Fail. You also make it sound like it's ok for China to pull crap like this because they have a history of doing it. They don't. Hey maybe if those idiots didnt go around killing their baby girls like they did in ages past they'd have more women and they wouldnt need a "show us your boobs" policy in their MMOs to get women. Oh like any decent woman would put up with that anyway. So they fail once again.
ok, just read the article and the first couple of posts - so this may have been already stated, I'm not in the mood to read all 28 pages.
They say you have to prove your sexual identity on webcam - would that not constitute encouragement of internet porn? Especially male porn since it is only guys they are checking. I see several gay Chinese executives laughing about all the d*cks they are getting to see for free.
Just my opinion.
nice :)) but what they will do with the female that plays as male ? i know lots of girls that plays as boys and they have male characters.
I hope they go out of buisness, I hope that this stupid company and their backwards pathetic ideals go down the drain as fast as possible. Its sad to see when the world moves backwards. I've never heard of a whole professional company that is homophobic, its shocking but at the same time to be expected. It saddens me to hear that sexism is on the rise again, women won their battle but it seems men have a battle to win of their own. Long live the freedom of expression!!!
I thought Jon Wood was going to prove his sex or become gender neutral in this thread. Now I'm totally disappointed, and I will continue to be disappointed until I hear that Jon has become a Ken doll.
Well MMO's are role-playing by nature so if a guy wants to play as a women I really feel like I have no right to tell them they can't. I feel like the MMO companies are over stepping their boundries by telling people this. A huge part of these games are fantasy and role playing is even in the genre description so I feel like artificial limitations like that are kind of cheapening and unfair. Now I have never cybered in an mmo game so maybe that's one of the reasons I don't care but I can see female toons getting harassed if guys know they are in fact female and that gender ambiguity could work in their benefit. Like I said though, if two people want to cyber or live their online life as the opposite gender I don't feel like it is my place to judge. Hopefully they keep it in tells though as I'd hate to stumble upon that conversation :p.
On a somewhat off topic side note I was doing an Iron Tower run in AOC recently with five female toons and myself. Four of which had mics so they were indeed women while the fifth claimed to have none so I couldn't verify one way or the other. The first boss you encounter is female and charms you and all five of them got charmed, with me just escaping in time. That's six women against me if you include the boss chasing after me and beating on me for the duration of the charm which looked hilarious and opened up the dialogue for some very entertaining though sexist conversation between all of us with me certainly on the tale end of all of their jokes and them getting the brunt of my humor. It really can be a wonderful thing to have exchanges and encounters like this with the opposite gender as women can sometimes bring a very different, and in this case very funny, perspective to such encounters. It is certainly a raid I will remember for a long time and they all seemed very nice, were funny and it's certainly the first time that it's happened to me in a video game. The key here is that everyone was respectful yet not very politically correct which is the, imo, ideal atmosphere for such things. Not raunchy or mean spirited but definitely not work place humor. Being the only guy certainly was fun, and to those looking for attention in the digital world, perhaps even enviable but I still think that people should be allowed to play how they feel. Just my 2 cents.
Hah, so the Chinese are basically saying "Tits or GTFO"?
Why is it outrageous? Many things in life ask you to specify your gender, be it applying for a job or play amateure football. Why would a competetive video game be any different?
It is not politically correct but I dont see what is so outrageous about it.
It does not say that male, female, gay, straight, black, white cannot play. They simply say dont misrepresent/hide your true gender.
Well you see the problem with your view point is that you are not applying for a job or playing amateur football. We are talking about mmoRPG. Yes the RPG stands for roleplaying game. Set in on a real pen and paper rpg game session or go to a roleplaying game convention like GenCon and you will see that the whole thing of not allowing a player to play a character of an opposite sex is ridiculous.
You are not misrepresenting anything because you are playing a roleplaying game. Otherwise like other people pointed out you would be misrepresenting yourself by playing a mage when you don't really cast spells. Or being an orc when you are not.
I think at the heart of the matter is that people for some reason think that these games double as an online dating service. There are companies that are good at finding someone a date. These people need to start going to those sites instead of soliciting other players.
People really need to get a life and stop obsessing over what someones real life sex is. I could care less. If they are cool to group with and are nice in general that is all I care about.
About time they put this kind of thing into games, for far to long we have strayed for the word of the lord and people need to stop this perversion that if cross gender playing, we were made this way by our lord and this is the way we should be view by the world, I'm all for it perhaps DNA testing keyboards, or always on Webcams so there will be no taking pic of there girlfriend as a way around it.
Ok ok I'm joking someone get these guys a big cup of STFU and wave bye bye to there game as it sinks into the pit of games that will never get played.
The only reason for this is so that the CSR's can cyber knowing that it is a girl, I would LOVE to see the transcript of the guy that got burnt SO bad that they want to put this kind of ruling in :)
Thanks for the LOL will spread this one far and wide :)
Lol good one you got me for a moment there I was about to pull out the claws and attack you. Yah that is a good point, honestly though its all about sexism and fear. Its about that macho idea "I don't want to hit on a girl and find out its a man," when in all reality they'd be lucky if any human being would reply to their advances rofl. Cross gender gaming is fine, if you need a relationship then get off your PC and go out and meet someone. Kudos to your post you got me for a second.
That company got it all wrong. It's all about Role Playing game.
If I want to play a role of a nice blond girl, so be it.
If I want to play as a horrible female green 1-eyed 8 feet Orc, should I also prove my idenity??
This is all ridiculous
Its not about gender but about sex...thats a concept many people still confuse ^^
And this a slap in the face for Transgendered people the most really....not as if its the first ^.^ :-\
The story of Ceciliantas is a good example of why you shouldn't engage in cybering activities in an MMO
You Sir are an idiot.
Communist in its purest form is the right way to go. China is what the "west" calls communist but really is as far from true communist as the American-capatalist state is.
True communist ideals are based on a classless society with no ruling class and equal say for all. This China is not. Please do not use words unless you really understand them. "Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where mankind is free from oppression and scarcity. A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions" Sound like China? No? Thought not.
In its purest form Communisum is the ultimate form of free thought and progression for mankind. Of course thats not the case in the real world as its controlled by people and by thier very nature people are open to corruption.
Just because your history teacher in 3rd grade taught you that all "commies" are evil does not make it so. Get a world view then reply with something resembling free though. China is a totalitarian state yes ... and that is (IMHO) worse than the capataist system we in the west use ... dont be mislead into thinking that communisum is bad though .. if it could be really achieved without the flaws of man it would be a much better system than any we currently have. Democratic just means "majority rule" its not a free state as deffined by true communisum.
My third grade teacher never taught me that "commies" are evil. In fact, I don't live in a nation or culture where the term "commies" is even used commonly.
I'm also not starting a political/philosophical conversation about the merits of any economic paradigm, communist or otherwise. I was commenting on the application of communism in China, at present, and how this may impact the way Chinese companies handle issues like intellectual freedom and privacy.
I see the gender issue in this MMO as a breach of those two things specifically: intellectual freedom and privacy. I agree with Jon that this is absurd. I still think it highlights, for me, some of the freedoms that I can be thankful for here in Canada.
"Am I going to have to prove that I'm short and fat in order to play a Halfling? Give me a break."
...And your platted beard if you have a dwarf... ...Do I need a lobotomy if I want to change my stats/skills?
They will need to see your criminal record also if you intend to play that Halfling as a thief.
Can someone make another thread for this, I reckon some of us could keep this up all night.
some pick female characters because they look 'good' (you can partly 'blame' developers for this besides your own biological mind and culture)
some pick female characters because there's always some sucker which gives them free gifts or hesitates to kill them in pvp
during most of the years i've played games i always played male characters. it never even really crossed my mind to play a female character because i'm a man irl but about a year ago i have played a female character and the reason was trivial: humor. there was little else as funny as playing a brutal warrior with the smallest possible female character wearing the biggest possible axe. if it would have been reality that figure could never have wielded that axe and the contrast was funny in my opinion.
ever since that first time i just pick the sex for the character i'll play which i find appropriate for whatever reason i imagine at the time so it can be a male or female character.
mind you i'm not really acting girly or anything and i've never claimed in one of theses games that i'm a girl irl and in that situation the potentially most troubling part about cross-gender playing is not that you risk being 'harassed' in some way by other players (assuming you're not encouraging that yourself) but the 'wedding' policies in mmo's which rarely allow same 'gender' character weddings.
in game weddings don't interest me much -they're often only about cash anyway :p- but since most players are not role playing the whole time and usually start to talk about real life and such eventually it can matter what your sex is in real life, despite of the fact that there's little reason for genders to matter for the game itself.
combine that with the wedding policy in most games and what you get is a weird situation where you would have to marry a male character played by a hetero girl when you're a hetero man yourself but playing a female character or you're not able to have a virtual marriage at all between these characters. :p
Yup, and I like your examples.
From a sociology perspective this could be seen as a clear conflict between a collectivist culture and one that values individual rights and freedoms.
In more collective cultures (where the group is more important than the individual) you have a lot of prescribed roles. Any deviation from these prescriptions creates an anxiety that the good of the "community" is being undermined. This anxiety tends to express itself through various forms of social control. Some are subtle (e.g. disapproving looks, comments), others are more overt (policies like this MMO company has introduced, and laws).
Generally speaking, cultures that find a happy median between the needs of the group and the needs of the individual thrive. Extremes to either side of the spectrum tend to have negative outcomes, from a historical and sociological point of view at any rate.
I lean towards individual rights and freedoms, so this controlling method of regulating social norms is a shock to my senses. Policing gender roles in a virtual environment is certainly an unwelcome extreme imo.
Maybe they are looking to start a "Your GF Pics" porn site and need material?
My favorite reason for playing a female toon:
"if you are going to spend hours looking at your toon's rear end, then it might as well be a rear end you like looking at!"
HAHA! I freaking LOVE it! Do it.
I think you men need to get over yourselves. Games are not just for men anymore and this just proves it.
I think it's assanine when men play female characters. It's so gay. Don't give me that crap about not wanting to look at a male toon's butt. How childish. It's pixels, not real life. Men who play female characters worry me. Are they cybering with other men getting off on it? That's dishonest and in the past, it has caused problems for others in real life.
That's my opinion and I think it is a fantastic idea!
You can say it's a unique idea or a funny idea,but it's not a stupid idea at all,at least it's not stupid for selling thier game.
There are many boys in Taiwan or in mainland China playing mmorpg in oder to find some girls to talk to or even better :find a girlfriend.So there are many crappy mmorpgs introduced "mirrage" or "dating" system into them,if you are someone trying to find a gf on those games,a game with this "gender proving polocy" would be more attractive to you,even if you know it's hard to really prevent female characters been played buy dudes.
And also there are too many crappy mmorgs competing in this market,so you need some special features to get you more attention or free advertisement.Half naked female characters with huge boobs are not unique anymore,so you need something new like this,and yes they got many attention on their game,so it's not a bad idea at all even for the free ad only.
By the way,i am a chinese.Guys please dont use chinese words you dont know in your signature or avatar.
It's pretty funny for those who undersand the meaning of those words.
If your using an MMO as a dating site then your not only limiting your options but truly need to take a look at the internet and what it has to offer, with the advent of sites like (well not going to say them all but we have all seen the ads on tv) if you pick an MMO as your choice then you need your head read.
Thanks for the heads up on the using Chinese words I have seen it the other way around ALOT as I spend a lot of time in Japan and China, and some of the translations are truly funny and some so sick they should get awards :)
Man this logic is so full of holes, it's hard to resist answering in kind...
Personally you are the one with a problem. it's not a question of want, it's a question of rather. Yeah, it's all pixels, so why are you so shocked that someone might chose to play a female toon. Maybe you are are really an elf/undead/dwarf in real life. I know I'm not.
As for thinking it's gay to play female characters, it just goes to show how immature you are, or how afraid of your own masculinity you are that you feel threatened by anyone playing a girl toon. I guess you never played Tomb Raider, No One Lives Forever or any of those games either. Next thing you know, you would be probably raiding your mom's closet and wearing her underwear.
And no, guys playing girl toons are not cybering other guys. But I would venture to say you once tried to cyber some cute girl elf, only to find out it was a 40 year old dude. Maybe that's where your trauma stems from. Either that or you tried to marry one or even showered some girl toon with all your money only to find out that you were suckered.
A basic rule of thumb is, always assume that that toon hottie is a guy. If you want to find a date, go to a dating site, or better yet, get a life.
is for me, If i rather play a toon that i consider easy on the eyes then that is my prerogative and does not lessen my manhood one iota to do so.
Ok lets start with working out what you really mean
gay
??/ge?/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gey] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb
Use gay in a Sentence
See web results for gay
See images of gay
–adjective
1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.
2. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.
3. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season.
4. licentious; dissipated; wanton: The baron is a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies.
5. homosexual.
6. of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.
–noun
7. a homosexual person, esp. a male.
–adverb
8. in a gay manner.
I assume that you are using it in the homosexual term and also trying to convey it as an insult of sorts, this would put you in the 6-14 age bracket as this is the most common insult they use after the age of 14 and puberty has started it is dropped for more hurtful terms.
Games have not been "JUST FOR MEN" for a very long time now, and if you took them as being that way it is just another indicator to your narrow world view.
Men playing women in an Role play game, well lets define Role play for you, anytime you take on a persona that is not your own you are role playing, on a conscious or subconscious level, (yes that means when you play Halo you are Role playing as a Spartan) now I will make a leap here and say that you do not want to be or have ever role played when not playing a game, (you don't dress up as master chief and run about shooting people) so if this is true they why do you make the assumption that anyone that plays a gender not there own (yes it goes both ways) wants to be the gender/Character in there day to day life?
As for cybering to get off as you put it, I can point you to thousands of sites that are far easier to meet people of the same sexual persuasion as your self (homosexual/lesbian or straight) to cyber in a game is kind of like pushing water up hill with a blindfold on, hard as hell and you never know what your getting.
Thanks for your very very narrow opinion on this subject and please seek some psychiatric help.
You pretty much owned yourself.
Its pixels, its not real life - so why care about real life or even drag that subject into this in the first place?
Its pixels, not real life. Man you nailed it, that comment is so good. Unfortunate for you it can be turned against your silly little arguments.
[Kamen Rider Zero]Let me say this to start![/zero]
I am a guy and i play girls. Got a problem what that? Then i got a problem giving your company my money.
I'm confused how picking an avatar gender opposite yours is "misrepresenting" anything. Say, I play a male tank class. And then I freely tell my guild that the planned raid time for next week has to be moved up an hour so I could pick my hubby up from the airport. Where is the misrepresentation? Say I play a female rogue but chat on ventrilo in baritone. You have to work to misrepresent yourself, gender or anything else. If you were going to put in the effort to deceive people, no amount of internet "failsafes" are going to do anything.
How people can say simply playing a female toon when you're a guy is being deceptive boggles the mind.
Ok you've won me over. Male players can have female characters in-game BUT only if they castrate themselves and become eunics... problem solved.
Let me guess the real story behind this...some Party Official was playing this game and found out the chick he was cybering with was really a guy... news at 11:00