Richard Aihoshi's Free Zone: Is RMT Inevitable?
Most free to play MMOs are supported through microtransactions. This week, Aihoshi looks at the future of real money transactions in MMOs.
It's certainly possible to make a strong case that it is, at least in games where items are important and can be exchanged. There are people whose opinions I respect who are against Real Money Trade. I believe I understand their reasons pretty well, but it seems clear that most of the online gaming world thinks otherwise. For what it's worth, I tend to agree.
Just to be clear, RMT and free to play are not synonymous, although they do overlap to a substantial degree. By my definition, the former is simply the ability to buy in-game items and/or characters using real money, whether directly or indirectly via the step of purchasing a virtual currency. Personally, I don't care if it's possible to cash out or not, although this obviously matters a lot to anyone looking to make a profit.
Basically, it seems like a matter of free enterprise founded on exchanging time for money and vice versa. When you play a subscription game, you pay a flat monthly fee, then progress your character based on the number of hours you invest. It's not a completely linear function. To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else.
Yes, I've been in the situation where I grouped with people whose knowledge of how to play was clearly not on par with what I'd expect from seeing their respective character levels or gear. So what? In the very worst cases, I died because they didn't understand or fulfill their roles. But occasional deaths are unavoidable even in solid parties due to my preferred play style; I don't think it's nearly as fun to restrict myself to places and quests where there's never much chance of dieing. Nowadays, with penalties being far less severe than they were in year past, what have I really lost?
Plus that hasn't happened to me very often anyway. People who buy items still have to play (and learn to play), and they far outnumber those who purchase characters. In addition, quite a few titles now allow players to sell cash shop articles for game currency or to trade them for dropped or crafted ones because doing so lets the operator indirectly monetize non-paying users. So having such gear isn't even a particularly good indicator of someone's knowledge or ability.
It's also the case that precluding in-game RMT will reduce but probably won't completely prevent it. There are plenty of third-party sites where people can go. Unfortunately, all of them have potential risks, the most obvious being non-delivery of something you've paid for - and they offer little or no recourse. There's no question I'd rather have the greater sense of confidence and margin of safety that come with the publisher handling the transaction, even if it means the cost is somewhat higher. Indeed, that may not necessarily be so since the unregulated sites are obviously in the business to make money.
To get back to my original question about inevitability, I won't go as far as to predict every game will permit RMT, at least not within a reasonably foreseeable time frame, say the next few years. However, it's hard to see the growth trend changing.
What I do suspect will happen is that even titles that don't allow it will implement additional revenue streams; i.e. they'll offer you more ways to spend your money. We've seen some already. Pre-made characters for sale and premium servers are two examples. Neither is new, but we've yet to see many other ideas, which means we've only scratched the surface.
As to why I expect this to happen, the primary reason is very simple. Only charging a monthly subscription fee leaves a lot of money on the table that could be in the publishers' and operators' coffers. They're in business to make money too, and what's more, those who are aware of North American business history know that most consumer grumbling isn't backed up with subsequent action.
Think of it like this. When character classed are nerfed, how much moaning do you see versus players actually quitting? In a similar vein, if a game people enjoy and have invested hundreds or even thousands of hours in adds a new, optional revenue stream, how badly do they have to hate it before they'll leave? More RMT is inevitable because it supports a lot of possibilities.
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He is the former Editor of RPG Vault and his column, focusing on free to play MMOs, appears on MMORPG.com every Monday.
It is just an alternative revenue stream that is working so I believe it is inevitable. It is rampant now especially with mainstream MMO developers.
They are using item shops and trading card games. Some are even using a lottery system within their TCG for a "chance" at obtaining in game items.
I do not think this is a fad...RMT is easy and cost efficient to implement. For me it breaks immersion. I do not have much issue with it with F2P games but premium monthly sub games I have big problems with it...but it is not going anyway anytime soon.
You have hit some great discussion topics Dana. Thanks.
I have no issues with RMT as long as the items being sold do not give players an advantage in pvp. The problem I have with the model is that some companies like SOE want to slap a monthly fee on top of that or make "must have" items that must be bought from the item mall. I'm sorry but gamers are not walking atm machines for game developers. I do think it is far from inevitable because gamers find it much easier to pay a month subscription if need be.
I also think its an "either or" situation. You can't have a monthly sub and slap item shops in also.
It's funny to think less then 2 years ago people on this site laughed at the idea of RMT based games becoming mainstream or evolving into a core business model. (for better or worse)
IMHO the F2P model with a premium membership setup will be the wave of the future with western MMO's and will the standard business model in the next few years. (hell, its already happening)
I also think its an "either or" situation. You can't have a monthly sub and slap item shops in also.
It's funny to think less then 2 years ago people on this site laughed at the idea of RMT based games becoming mainstream or evolving into a core business model. (for better or worse)
IMHO the F2P model with a premium membership setup will be the wave of the future with western MMO's and will the standard business model in the next few years. (hell, its already happening)
I really hope this isnt the case mate,the thought of a pvp battle with regards to my visa bill does not get me excited.
I do how ever feel you maybe right and that gaming companies will make more money this way,I guess then I will step back and get another hobby.
I guess the good news is I cant see it happening in the next 4 or 5 years,no need to worry atm.
I don't know that it is "inevitable" either. Especially if you're talking universally. I know that I'm opposed to it when speaking of P2P games, certainly. If it does approach being a universal move, I'd hope that companies offer different servers where such transactions could happen and keep a healthy number of servers for those that want no part in it and believe time invested is the way to go.
As for the North American masses, when pushed enough or in the right way, showing their displeasure with their feet, you sir, missed your SOE NGE 101 class, sir. Precedent has been established, whether you care to recognize/admit it or not. It can happen.
I really hope this isnt the case mate,the thought of a pvp battle with regards to my visa bill does not get me excited.
I do how ever feel you maybe right and that gaming companies will make more money this way,I guess then I will step back and get another hobby.
I guess the good news is I cant see it happening in the next 4 or 5 years,no need to worry atm.
It's already here.
Any oppurtunity to use money to buy X item instead of having to spend game time earning X item is an advantage no matter how it's sugar coated. I won't subscribe to any game making it necessary to advance in that fashion or allowing others to bypass earning the same item I had to work through a 2 hr dungeon for. Now if it is useless items for only appearance reasons or collectible items perhaps for a player's in-game house that's fine.
If a developer wants to raise the monthly fee to make more money, fine, but I won't subscribe if they get greedy. There is a difference between earning a living and trying to suck every dime out of your customers.
I really hope this isnt the case mate,the thought of a pvp battle with regards to my visa bill does not get me excited.
I do how ever feel you maybe right and that gaming companies will make more money this way,I guess then I will step back and get another hobby.
I guess the good news is I cant see it happening in the next 4 or 5 years,no need to worry atm.
It's already here.
I meant as a pre buisness model,atm alot of mainstream games release as a monthly fee and I dont see that changing(if ever)for at least 4-5 years.
It's already here.
I meant as a pre buisness model,atm alot of mainstream games release as a monthly fee and I dont see that changing(if ever)for at least 4-5 years.
We have mainstream F2P games with RMT now along with P2P mainstream games with RMT now. Ideally the game developers want both sub fees with RMT. SOE for sure will release DC Online with RMT or some sort either with cash shop or TCG lottery.
With Bioware's TOR and Cryptic's Champions Online both playing around with various RMT offerings - I would say that we are about 1 to 2 years away from seeing it as the norm. SOE already has it in place in some of its games and it will surely be implemented in others.
What will really speed it along is if Blizzard finds a way to place it in WoW or announces that its future mmo will have RMT options. Seeing as every action they seem to have is cloned or imitated - that would sound the death knell for the strictly monthly subscription mmo.
I believe WoW has some RMT items in place now although they may be cosmetic only in nature. They also have a TCG.
I have no problem with RMT as long as it's part of the game. Since the RMT games are usually F2P, they're often more populated and cost me less per month. In the past 4 months, I've spent nothing in Dungeon Runners, $10 in Florensia and and $15 in Combat Arms. I had fun in three games for $25 and if those were subscription MMOs, it would have cost me five or six times that.
Well from a money earning company view it makes sense however from a customer point of view it can make sense only to people willing to spend a lot of money...
There is no doubt that RTM/Cash shop/non P2P type model creates/evolves the game primarily around income/money...whlle P2P model although spnines around income/money its influence on the game balancing is much less and more oriented to creating quality content...
It will be a said day if they really makes this payment types stick in the west...
I'm surprised anyone would look at something that works in other countries and then look at America and say, "Sure! It's inevitable!" There've been better ideas that didn't hold water here. Let's name some.
The metric system.
The electric car (except the gas prices changed that finally).
Bullet trains.
From everything I've read, gamers in asian countries tend to be more cooperative and team-centered. Whereas in the U.S. there's a larger trend toward individualism. To me, even if a game doesn't put me in direct competition with someone else (via pvp), I'm still in competition with them as far as level and item gains go. I'm proud of the fact that I've got Shiny Sword of Pigmailia on my max level toon, because I know how hard I had to "work" to get it. And as well, if I see someone with something even better, there's a little awe for what they, likewise, were able to accomplish.
Now, give people the ability to speed through levels or gain cool looking items just by buying them with real money, that kind of thing sours me on the entire experience. Now I don't know if that person with the awesome hammer actually earned it, or paid for it with dollars.
Again, most of this is just my opinion, but I hope to not have to play a game where the richer person wins or has the ability to win based solely on his real world wealth.
It's already here.
I meant as a pre buisness model,atm alot of mainstream games release as a monthly fee and I dont see that changing(if ever)for at least 4-5 years.
We have mainstream F2P games with RMT now along with P2P mainstream games with RMT now. Ideally the game developers want both sub fees with RMT. SOE for sure will release DC Online with RMT or some sort either with cash shop or TCG lottery.
I think you are missing the point a little.
You mention the like's of WoW in a later post,also you say that DC will release with RMT.
Now wow's payments are for things like server change,name change etc.we dont know what the extent of DC will be but with WoW's it doesnt improve your guy,it just gives you alittle more freedom to move him around or his looks.
As I said in my 1st post I dont want to battle guys who may or may not have a bigger Visa card,anything that is for looks or what server they play on doesnt matter....we still play on a level playing base,this has nothing to do with what your player can do ingame,only what server and how he looks doing it.
What alot of players dont want is the fact you can buy lots of pots/upgrades/armor/etc/etc.
Then you have an advantage because you spend more real cash every month>>>>no more skill or how you play,just how much you can afford.
I meant as a pre buisness model,atm alot of mainstream games release as a monthly fee and I dont see that changing(if ever)for at least 4-5 years.
We have mainstream F2P games with RMT now along with P2P mainstream games with RMT now. Ideally the game developers want both sub fees with RMT. SOE for sure will release DC Online with RMT or some sort either with cash shop or TCG lottery.
I think you are missing the point a little.
You mention the like's of WoW in a later post,also you say that DC will release with RMT.
Now wow's payments are for things like server change,name change etc.we dont know what the extent of DC will be but with WoW's it doesnt improve your guy,it just gives you alittle more freedom to move him around or his looks.
As I said in my 1st post I dont want to battle guys who may or may not have a bigger Visa card,anything that is for looks or what server they play on doesnt matter....we still play on a level playing base,this has nothing to do with what your player can do ingame,only what server and how he looks doing it.
What alot of players dont want is the fact you can buy lots of pots/upgrades/armor/etc/etc.
Then you have an advantage because you spend more real cash every month>>>>no more skill or how you play,just how much you can afford.
Understood but those items with WoW are still RMT. TCG is also a form of RMT. It is a slippery slope and one so far Blizzard has climbed rather successfully.
As long as Blizzard remains the sub king I do not think they will cross that line that you are concerned with.
SOE however has a proven track record of not giving a crap about their customers and what they think or want and has outright lied to them. Smed right now is all about RMT.
I agree with you I don't mind getting my arse handed to me to someone who has put forth more time and effort...if it becomes a Visa card challenge then I forfeit.
My point is that RMT is here now and definately forthcoming in new games. The sad thing is that the developers wouldn't use RMT if players were not laying down the cash. Ultimately the players can kill it.
I don't have a problem with RMT. If its a popular feature, it will only give developers an incentive to add more fun things to the game. That being said, you aren't going to get many people leaving WoW to try out a game that requires a subscription fee, XP potions to deal with the grindy gameplay, and then charges you real life money for an in game system like talent respecs. The important thing is that RMT must be used in such a way that it is seen as an enhancement to the game overall as opposed to something that is needed to either make a bad game palettable or a requirement to be competitive at high level.
I will Never subscribe to ANY RMT game. Whether its an compulsary or a voluntary option, even if it's for fluff items.
RMT is a slap in the face to the unwritten rules of this genre, it breaks the gaming spirit of MMOs.
MMORPGs are a special kind of gaming genre, immersion is key for many people, and even just knowing that the person in front of me could be wearing or using an item that they have purchased out of game and with no prior effort, is contrary to everything this genre is and should be about.
RMT is a slipper slope, at first it will be sneaked in the back door and then like a virus it will spread to everything. We need to make a stand NOW! NO to RMT or ANY kind.
ANY game with RMT of ANY kind will NOT get me as a subscriber.
So that's one potential customer lost. And if there's 1 theres a lot more.
RMT from western companies is just another form of blizzard envy. if you cannot best them at subs, just make the few subs you have pay more. it is a good idea for "certain companies" who constantly drive customers away and cannot maintain a decent playerbase.
i predict many players will never accept the idea of paying to play and RMT in the same game though. especially in the current economic climate.
An interesting aspect of RMT is how these transactions are valued. In games like SOE's exchange servers, where players can also legally sell items, goverments all over the world are looking to add taxes like VAT to income even when the virtual currency never leaves the game. If you think that RL politics is something for someone else, you need to know about these aspects of tax policy and form a good opinion -- they have the potential to cripple some aspects of the gaming industry (for good or ill).
Already, EU countries have virtual transactions in Second Life (buying a player-created asset like a piece of avatar clothing, rent on virtual land) slapped with VAT within Linden Lab's own transaction servers. There's recommendations, *phenomenally* cluelessly put together, in the US IRS on taxing virtual goods -- which as regulations, would sidestep consideration in Congress.
You know you've become mainstream when the IRS is after you! :)
Yrs,
Shava
/* seeking work in the gaming industry --- marketing/PR/analysis/story -- pls PM */
(speaking as an American with some Asian heritage to a mostly American audience)
Another thing to consider is the peculiarly western concept of "fairness" -- we want a level playing field, and in non-western countries, the pragmatic view is often "OK, this is the rule set in context (including RMT advantages and so on) -- so I'm not going to whine, I'm going to do what I can."
It's not that other cultures don't have a concept of fairness. They have strong, often more integral and high context expressions that engage deeper in the social fabric than the often "will I get caught and who would it hurt anyone really anyway" level here in the US. But it's a mistake to assume that a word with so much development and history and culture behind it like "fairness" can be assumed to have the same interpretation when you cross cultural borders (including within subcultures in your own country).
Two kids, a big piece of cake, and a knife. The "fair" distribution is to have one kid cut and the other pick, right? But in some countries, this always results in the kid who didn't cut getting *offered* the bigger piece out of courtesy, as opposed to our assumption that the kid who doesn't cut picks gets the bigger piece. In those cultures, it's fair to make them as even as possible -- for just about the opposite reason as you'd think with two average American kids. Looks the same from the outside, though, pretty much!
Westerners are far more apt to whine about rule sets being polluted by unfair advantage given to a class, people putting real money into the game, and so on. There are cultural reasons why gold farms are typically in non-western countries -- reasons that go further than enforcement and the cost of local labor.
Yrs,
Shava
/* insert job spamming message here - PM me! :) */
so long as they pass on the benefits to their other subscribers i am fine with it. If a game advertises, micro transactions or RL merchandise's then i expect to pay a lower sub fee or gain some other benefit (if they pull the old "it will make the game better because we have more money to spend on it" then i doubt i will be playing as money means crap all in making a good game).
Bottom line is i am ok with it so long as its not a BS extra cost for us. Advertising is the big one for me, any Game that has RL advertising (and gets revenue from it) and does not pass on that revenue to the players (in the form of a lower monthly fee or other benefits) will not be on my play list for very long.
I meant as a pre buisness model,atm alot of mainstream games release as a monthly fee and I dont see that changing(if ever)for at least 4-5 years.
We have mainstream F2P games with RMT now along with P2P mainstream games with RMT now. Ideally the game developers want both sub fees with RMT. SOE for sure will release DC Online with RMT or some sort either with cash shop or TCG lottery.
I think you are missing the point a little.
You mention the like's of WoW in a later post,also you say that DC will release with RMT.
Now wow's payments are for things like server change,name change etc.we dont know what the extent of DC will be but with WoW's it doesnt improve your guy,it just gives you alittle more freedom to move him around or his looks.
As I said in my 1st post I dont want to battle guys who may or may not have a bigger Visa card,anything that is for looks or what server they play on doesnt matter....we still play on a level playing base,this has nothing to do with what your player can do ingame,only what server and how he looks doing it.
What alot of players dont want is the fact you can buy lots of pots/upgrades/armor/etc/etc.
Then you have an advantage because you spend more real cash every month>>>>no more skill or how you play,just how much you can afford.
As a person who has never been able to compete in the "how long you play" or in the twitch "skill" arena I find it refreshing that some games are going to be give advantages based on how much you can afford.
Think of the positive incentive this will give players to succeed in the real world first, and in gaming worlds 2nd. I think the system is a bit backwards today and rewards gamers for the wrong behavior.
Let's recap on games which have the "cash shop" payment system:
ALL Asian grinders whom no one gives two craps about, unless they are rich and want to "pwn faces" in pvp because they can throw money where skill, effort, work, and all around player abilities are severely lacking.
"The Agency" is another future "MMO" with hopes at the cash shop industry for F2P games. Hey look, another sub-par game with massive instancing and an overall appeal to console gamers (they literally are shooting for a console based game, and then porting it over to PC....watch the latest dev interview).
The SWG dev team was forced into the "cash shop" trading card game due to how badly SOE+LA screwed the game over, and now rakes in mediocre profits from the trading card game + $15/mo subscriptions (or station passes).
Sorry, but you individuals whom think the RMT market is "The Future" are ignorant. You want to use your Visa's instead of your brains/abilities to PLAY A GAME. If you have to pay for particular items you lack the ability to get on your own, theres no point in even playing the game other than to shove it in someone's face that you have a disposable income (or parents) to throw money at, instead of bullets/arrows/spells/we.
Again so sorry, but those of you whom support (and look forward to) RMT games can have them....all of the ones I've seen so far have either been boycotted into P2P system (such as the new StarWars MMO), or are simply so sub-par with their developement they are doing it for sheer money-raking abilities. I'll be here 5 years from now picking apart your illogical thought patterns with a blender.
-cheers
You seemed to have left alot out of your list.
Most of the others that I left out on purpose don't deserve honorable mentions. The only ones worth speaking about are the ones above. Everything else is either SOE based (money grubbing suits that they are) and more Asian based companies.
I'm sorry Veleran, but no matter how many times the small minority that want RMT based mmo's claim "it's the future"....it won't happen to the extent you wish it to be.
$15/mo is easily chump change, hell it's lunch money to people whom work for a living, or live with their parents. RMT games cost MORE money than non-RMT games. Case and point:
For the same 30day package of goodies from 9 Dragons as a normal P2P subscription would be, it's $21. I used to be in a clan that had members whom paid over $40/mo for special items/potions to stay "Ahead of the pvp curve". The ONLY reason the RMT transaction based MMO system is so popular is BECAUSE of the massive amount of mula it generates BECAUSE IT COSTS MORE TO BE AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT.
Also, I laughed when the author said "the majority of the MMO community thinks otherwise". When the truth be told, they ran a poll on MMOGAMER's forums last year and found over 86% of the community (of those who voted) were AGAINST RMT transaction games.
I don't worry one way or the other about RMT. But for us USA players I see the federal and or state governments figuring out a way that they are going to collect sales taxes on these transactions. This will be a golden oppertunity to test the waters of taxing the internet by hitting gamers first. Perefect scapegoat, who cares if gamers are taxed.
tinfoil hat removed :)
Don't worry, the only way to tax the internet through direct transactions like this would be to remove anonimity of the net, which won't EVER happen. Another internet would spring up (guerilla.net lol?) in it's place due to the outrage.
:)
Most of the others that I left out on purpose don't deserve honorable mentions. The only ones worth speaking about are the ones above. Everything else is either SOE based (money grubbing suits that they are) and more Asian based companies.
I'm sorry Veleran, but no matter how many times the small minority that want RMT based mmo's claim "it's the future"....it won't happen to the extent you wish it to be.
$15/mo is easily chump change, hell it's lunch money to people whom work for a living, or live with their parents. RMT games cost MORE money than non-RMT games. Case and point:
For the same 30day package of goodies from 9 Dragons as a normal P2P subscription would be, it's $21. I used to be in a clan that had members whom paid over $40/mo for special items/potions to stay "Ahead of the pvp curve". The ONLY reason the RMT transaction based MMO system is so popular is BECAUSE of the massive amount of mula it generates BECAUSE IT COSTS MORE TO BE AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT.
Also, I laughed when the author said "the majority of the MMO community thinks otherwise". When the truth be told, they ran a poll on MMOGAMER's forums last year and found over 86% of the community (of those who voted) were AGAINST RMT transaction games.
I think you are confusing me with a supporter of RMT...I do not. Far from it...I think it is one of the main scourge of MMOs right now other than incompentent management.
These companies wouldn't be adding RMT if they were not being successful and profiting from it. It is simply marketing psychology...they are targeting impulse shoppers. The RMT companies know all to well how much people are willing to fork over. To stop it the players have to simply control themselves...which many cannot.
I really hope this isnt the case mate,the thought of a pvp battle with regards to my visa bill does not get me excited.
I do how ever feel you maybe right and that gaming companies will make more money this way,I guess then I will step back and get another hobby.
I guess the good news is I cant see it happening in the next 4 or 5 years,no need to worry atm.
My personal opinion is that it will not help the companies much in the long run. The reason for that is that it will drive people like myself from MMO's. I have no problem playing single player games, and will not participate in RMT. If a game I am playing turns into RMT for items that cause a player to be way better off than just playing the game I will cancel my subscrition and move on. If all MMO's are RMT then I will be saddened and play only single player games. I may or may not be in the minority. I have no problem paying a subscrition, and it is fair because these games exist on a cash inflow, however RMT which gives unfair advantages to those who have more money than me will never be an option I will choose.
Don't worry, the only way to tax the internet through direct transactions like this would be to remove anonimity of the net, which won't EVER happen. Another internet would spring up (guerilla.net lol?) in it's place due to the outrage.
:)
Actually certain RMT transactions in the U.S. are already taxable. Income is income and it all has to be reported.
Is RMT ineviiable? On some level it is. Bad ideas never seem to die. It won't ever be universal though.
A lot of people have the romantic image of people in chinese sweat-shops grinding gold to feed their families. But this is not the only source of ingame currency and items. A whole underground web-market full of criminals evolved around stealing and reselling virtual assets.
The reasons are obvious: If you manage to get credit-card numbers out of your trojan compromised victims it is very complicated to make profit out of them, because financial transactions are well documented and monitored. Not everyone has a bank account on the caymans or a post office box in Nigeria to launder money. But if you plunder your victims account and sell them in item/gold-shops, nobody will care. Every police-station will question your sanity if you want to report the theft of your epic mount and your whole ingame wealth, no matter how many thousand dollars it was worth.
Some paper that deals with this topic: honeyblog.org/junkyard/reports/www-china-TR.pdf
Some brief abstract:
So buying virtual assets from non-official sources on the one hand and getting angry when you have to wipe your OS and change all your passwords because you catched a trojan while surfing your favorite torrent sites on the other hand is a double standard.
That does not mean, I have problems with every form of RMT.
Positive example: EVE-Online
A player wants to purchase ingame currency. So he buys a gametime card from CCP and converts it into PLEXes. 1 PLEX = 30 days of gametime. A poor student wants to extend his EVE account. So he grinds some missions and buys the PLEX out of the market.
It's a win-win-win situation:
1. The player that does not want to grind gets his ingame currency, safe and riskfree.
2. The poor student can play Eve for free.
3. CCP has made money by selling a game-time card and made the item-sellers life a bit more worse.
But the main reason why people don't have a real problem with RMT in Eve:
Eve has a full-loot system. If you spend crazy amounts of real money for your equipment, you have a gigantic sign with "primary target" above your head. Epic equipment is not the neccesarily an "I win"-reason in Eve, because you risk it every time you undock.
Negative Examples:
All theese "pay to not suck"-games. A main aspect of games is fairness, no matter if it is a simple board game or the olympic games. Would you take part in a sports competition, where the person wins who spent most money on the referees?
In games with full-loot systems, RMT balances itself. But it is hard to balance RMT for most other MMOs in such a way that it is not considered as unfair by the majority of the players.
www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2319016/ < If you put out a quality product then there is no need for RMT.
I'm not against RMT as long as its done right (items are mostly fluff and all funds collected go to making more content).
RMT can be good or bad, it all depends on imlementation really.
Take City of Heroes, standard $15 a month, gets you th costume creator, 8 character slots, 14 issues of content.
But some people jsut want more. So with RTM they let you buy a server move, a chsracter rename, or extra character slots. Theirs also some fluf items like The Wedding Pack (emotes and wedding costumes) The Cyborg pack (emotes, costume pieces, and a power that does decent dammange but kills you), the Mage Pack (emote, costume, minor buff power) and Mac Pack (emote, costume, port to mission power on a long timer)
As long as its all cosmetic, emotes, character slots, server switch, character name change, and doesn't give distinct player advantages, then I am fine with anything. If more money = more skills = better player, I would immediately quit any game of that nature.
I think you are confusing me with a supporter of RMT...I do not. Far from it...I think it is one of the main scourge of MMOs right now other than incompentent management.
These companies wouldn't be adding RMT if they were not being successful and profiting from it. It is simply marketing psychology...they are targeting impulse shoppers. The RMT companies know all to well how much people are willing to fork over. To stop it the players have to simply control themselves...which many cannot.
Odd, most of your comments around the matter that i've read over the last couple months seem to indicate you did support RMT, my bad :)!
*sniff sniff* aaaaah i love the smell of fresh bulls!@# in the morning and this thread positively reeks of it.
id like to quote more then 1 person but eh lemme say it in my own way: RMTing if for people whom god forgot to give a pair.
ooooh STORYTIME STORYTIME there once was a belf paladin who looked up at the multitude of epic flying mounts in the sky and said "those look fun im going to get 1 of my own". when the people around him heard that, they began to say "go to this site, theyre discreet. go to this site theyre cheap" the belf paladin did then pity the poor souls around him for he knew they probably did not earn anything they had. "i will get that flyer" he said "and i will get it the proper way". for months the paladin saved, for months he farmed adamantite to sell and carved beautiful gemstones for his friends to eaarn money. the day finally arrived! he had just a few more missions to run before he had all the money he needed and he rushed over to the nether ray stables to purchase his new steed as he had long since hit exalted with the shatari skyguard. congrats said his friends, we decided to show up to see you ride your ray for the first time, you are the first person in this guild to ride a ray after all. indeed, for the paladin rode around happily showing off his new toy to his friends before beelining for HFP to tank a fel reaver.
for the truly ignorant out there, that paladin was a somewhat fictionalied version of me during the TBC era of WoW. ive always been against the idea of RMT but the thing with the flying mounts in TBC really crystallized it for me. i earned that ray and damn it all, it pretty much sickened me to see people flying around and bragging about buying the gold instead of going out and farming like the rest of us. unfortunately were in a "gimme now" state of mind when it comes to MMOs so i dont see this f2p focused buisness model going away anytime soon but god willing it goes away eventually.
*edit* forgot to mention, aihoshi is an idiot, buying a better weapon IS a problem if you buy it with cash intead of game money
RMT might the end of the fun and free atmosphere in games as you know it - people will elitize based on who RMTs more.
Games will no longer be an unassociated virtual reality, instead they will be a mirror of your real life credit card budget.
Of course, this is only in games that use Item Malls are a RMT.
I see nothing wrong with the sale of in-game characters, in-game items, as long as there's no item mall associated with it. They conquered the content and now they don't want to play anymore, it is fair enough to sell it, I don't even understand why it is illegal for such transactions to happen while the game offers an item shop, which is unbalanced by nature.
I see nothing wrong with an in-game TCG, as long as it doesn't interfere in the gameplay outside of it.
I see nothing wrong with customizations, such as name change, hair and skin changes, server transfers and such cosmetic services that are charged for.
Games should be in a monthly-fee format IMO, or be free-to-play without item malls, as they will eventually become the focus of developer new content and unbalance the game, I've seen it happen a lot, and it won't really make players stay away from the game when they have already played it for a reasonable amount of time, they will try to play without it and eventually get into it.
Illegal RMTs destroy an in-game economy, ultimately leading those that do not use it to end up going into it or stopping to play the game when it becomes a major factor in the game.
Its an interesting Blog, but there is one thing about the whole RMT concept that is easily dismissed: A lot of players do not like it, and thus are an audience which a company that doesnt follow this trend has a lot of pull with.
Basically, there are many players who like the fact that RL money, assets, influence, power or whatever does not figure into these games. With modern MMOs which also dont need insane amounts of time, but where you can play smart and skillful to achieve what dumbasses need 10-times the time you did, its a lot about equal opportunity and fair and level playing field.
RMT may create revenue, but it does not only add to a game, it subtracts somewhere else. As long as at least one company/design studio sees the value of the customer not interested in RMT-defiled lopsided games, this trend will make them much stronger.
It then really becomes a question of whether the games WITH RMT are able to provide better quality for more people and a better playing experience than the ones with just a monthly fee. You are mistaken if you believe that RMT is not a dealbreaker for many players.
I think you are confusing me with a supporter of RMT...I do not. Far from it...I think it is one of the main scourge of MMOs right now other than incompentent management.
These companies wouldn't be adding RMT if they were not being successful and profiting from it. It is simply marketing psychology...they are targeting impulse shoppers. The RMT companies know all to well how much people are willing to fork over. To stop it the players have to simply control themselves...which many cannot.
Odd, most of your comments around the matter that i've read over the last couple months seem to indicate you did support RMT, my bad :)!
I can promise you that you have not seen any post by me supporting RMT of any type including TCG if they add "loot items". WoW is the exception for TCG because they seem to have done it in an ethical manner.
For F2P games I can it tolerate it but for subscription based games I do not at all. Especially with premium monthly payment games...ie $15/month.
I have said that it is inevitable simply because it exploits human psychological weakness/impulses...The type of human behavior marketing people love to exploit. Think of RMT like all the candy and other sundry items stores place at the checkout counters.
I hope it's inevitable.
Beau
Here's my take on the RMT market. It's like sitting down with friends to play a fun game of Monopoly and have one player give everyone $5 bucks to own Boardwalk and Park Place at the start. It no longer becomes just a game, but it is now tainted by the economy. I play games to compete, level up, customize my character and induldge in fun PvP combat. I want to feel like I earned everything like it was meant to be earned.
RMT will be part of the future but there will still be games who will act against it. I'm actually encouraging some game companies to go ahead with the RMT market, that way in the subscription only games I play I won't have as many of them ruining my experience.
I agree and hope that you are correct but the temptation will be great developers see that model bringing in $$$.
RMT will stop when the war on drugs is over, ......it will never stop, The best solutyion is to have a few servers that support RMT run by the game company itself, and have non-rmt servers where the mmo police of the company can start mad banning the gold spammers, and in that case the gold buyers.
I think they can't control RMT in the game industry.. in F2P game you have a choice if you want to buy in their item mall... We all knew that by using item mall f2P that becomes P2P... Even thoguh we are not paying monthly to subscribe the game yet there's their item mall that can pursuade players to buy on it.. but it was still depends on the player, if the player enjoys the game by not buying anything in their item mall it would be better..
Amazing, I disagree with the OP yet again. I really hope he is wrong, because I know for a fact that I (and my friends) will simply not pay a subscription fee to play a game with RMT. It doesn't matter if it is for items, pre made characters or whatever - implement that and we're gone.
I'd rather play limited access / cooperative single player RPGs with a few friends than play an MMO where everything is RMT.
Why? Because I'm playing games to have fun - trying to "buy" advantages to somehow get more fun is just messed up.
Heh! Great examples :)
I saw in Warrior Epic, you could buy cosmetic additions to place in your warrior hall, or whatever its called. Given how static the hall environment is, this isn't much more sophistocated than dragging pretty pictures into a photoshop image. Do people actually pay for this stuff?
I agree with those of you in this "blog", if you even wanted to call it that, whom have the sense of mind to call Aihoshi an idiot.
Items malls today in general aren't all that bad as they were compared to two or three years ago, a few companies have gotten the balance down pretty well anymore, Atlantica Online for example has mot of the items tradeable in game, so you can just purchase from the ingame auction house instead of through the item mall, yet nothing that increases character effectiveness that much. WoW has done a decent balance with some success for a pay to play as well, with their TCG bringing in a small dual income.
If Blizzard/EA/SoE continued to follow that pattern and made an item mall where almost every item is capable of being sold ingame, instead of being account specific, or more visually appealing to make peoples characters stand out from the crowd, then I think people will be willing to play while others play and pay. Which would then lead to an overall change in the genre.
Look at the MMO hobby from the outside looking in, with as little bias as possible. How much have the cost of the monthly payments increases since UO debuted? ~$3-5? That's a small amount of inflation compared to how much have movies ticket prices have increased, or simply groceries, or even utilities like Water or electricity. Eventually at least one company will want to not have to count on subscriber numbers alone for success to pay the bills and techs, this will either lead to more item mall shops, or MMOs going to a pay per hour method to help carry some weight.
We're already seeing an interesting shift in MMOS in general. Today we have far more F2P item mall MMOs that have quality on par or better then P2P, and look at the top five rated games on this site alone, Atlantica Online has been holding either first or second position for MONTHS now and it isn't a new game, but where is WoW? FFXI? WAR? AoC? Only game that seems to be holding against that particular free MMO is LotRO. Eventually the P2P companies will use the stigma that "because it's P2P, it must be better then F2P" to their advantage and create flatout Item malls, EQ2 already has a good basis for one already, giving out equipment to enhance your characters looks, pets, titles, ect.
When you look at the success of Wizard101, club Penguin, Ruins of Magic, Atlantica and Freerealms (which more or less exploded onto the market) IMHO, MMO makers are going to have a hard time justifying NOT going RMT / premium service model.
Contrast those to the most recent subscription based MMO's released where the hottest topic is server consolidation not long after their launch (Age of Conan, WAR...)
I think you get a pretty clear picture of where this genre is going. Had western companies not launched so many low quality poorly made games based on monthly subs over the years, players wouldn't be so jaded and leery of them. I'm sure the string of games where people upgraded their PC, dropped 50 bucks on a box and then were expected to shell out a monthly sub for a game that hardly worked at launch and wasn't even close to finished had an impact on all of this.
I think the same people who argue "RMT is inevitable" are the same people who seem to believe (falsely) that the majority of MMO players like PvP. They only see the market through their jaded eyes and ignore all facts surrounding reality.
The only reason RMT works is because the markets they are mainly run in (third world) are were people do not have a steady stream of reliable income or own their own home internet connections. Over there, the job situation is by and large agricultural or some other type, and people do not simply have the $15/month to steadily pay. So being able to pay $10 one month and nothing the next when you dont' have money makes sense.
This model will evolve in NA and EU, but will never be as popular as monthly subs because games that run off a P2P model offer tons more content. I do not consider fluffy mounts, tons of wardrobes and 5,000,000 emotes you can buy as "content".
There is a reason AION is NOT a cashshop game; NCSoft knew they wouldn't get too many people in the first/second world countries with that kind of game model nor would they have been able to support the money up front on the whim that someone might have wanted to play a game with lesser play content, but more fluffy trinkets.
When did buying items with a credit card become engaging fun gameplay? I think I will go elsewhere to actually you know PLAY my games when all online games (would you still be able to call it that) become infested with this garbage.
It's hilarious how many mmo players love to make companies into some sort of Lex Luthor-esque bad guy because they offer premium services through micro transactions or outside product codes i.e. WoW TCG loot cards. The truth is, is that wanting to make lots of money through selling cash shop only items to players doesn't make a company 'evil' or 'greedy'. It makes them a 'company'.
Personally I don't see a problem with offering extra content through a RMT system, wether or not the premiums are cosmetic or character-enhancing. If it's some person's idea of fun to plunk down 20$ to buy some hawt gear for thier character so they can hang with thier higher-level friends and not get mauled (or grief some noob in pvp, or WHATEVER the reason REALLY doesn't matter) then why should anyone care? If the game stops being fun because of a poorly-implemented cash shop, you don't have to get your spending impulse fix at that particular game. If the mmo doomsday prophets are right (they're not) and RMT destroys every single half-decent game to be released in the near future, therby damning the MMO industry, then just go play some single player games on your PC and/or console of choice, but before you do, remember that lots of those games also offer 'premium content for a nominal fee' as well.
You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games.
I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!
I really hope this isnt the case mate,the thought of a pvp battle with regards to my visa bill does not get me excited.
I do how ever feel you maybe right and that gaming companies will make more money this way,I guess then I will step back and get another hobby.
I guess the good news is I cant see it happening in the next 4 or 5 years,no need to worry atm.
Seconded, theres no pain like watching money go out your account at a rate of knots and still have average gear, when i played RF Online, they introduced the cash shop before they made it F2P, i admit the game was already proper f****d from entire guilds of chinese gold farmers and it got to the stage where it was RMT or you were left behind, a nobody, i had to pay £60 just to upgrade my gear after a year and a half because sum1 who bought the game 2 months ago and threw alot of money at it was able to nuke me with a red seige kit.. sorry but RMT is fucking bs in subscription games and free to play games are shit and i cudnt care if they have cash shops.
If NCSoft put a cash shop in Aion with items that affect pvp im gone, and im never playing an mmo again, back to fps and single player games.
Both ther IRS in the US and HMRC in the UK have already taken notice of online money and how they can tax it.
A woman in the UK made shoes in Second Life and when she checked her account she had over a million pounds as her shoes had become extremely popular.
Now she is in a row with the tax man as they claim that is income and they would like their 40% please.
So with multinational games and differing tax systems any big game that goes in for RMT could have to have a very big tax accountant just to be on the right side of the tax man.
I meant as a pre buisness model,atm alot of mainstream games release as a monthly fee and I dont see that changing(if ever)for at least 4-5 years.
We have mainstream F2P games with RMT now along with P2P mainstream games with RMT now. Ideally the game developers want both sub fees with RMT. SOE for sure will release DC Online with RMT or some sort either with cash shop or TCG lottery.
I think you are missing the point a little.
You mention the like's of WoW in a later post,also you say that DC will release with RMT.
Now wow's payments are for things like server change,name change etc.we dont know what the extent of DC will be but with WoW's it doesnt improve your guy,it just gives you alittle more freedom to move him around or his looks.
As I said in my 1st post I dont want to battle guys who may or may not have a bigger Visa card,anything that is for looks or what server they play on doesnt matter....we still play on a level playing base,this has nothing to do with what your player can do ingame,only what server and how he looks doing it.
What alot of players dont want is the fact you can buy lots of pots/upgrades/armor/etc/etc.
Then you have an advantage because you spend more real cash every month>>>>no more skill or how you play,just how much you can afford.
As a person who has never been able to compete in the "how long you play" or in the twitch "skill" arena I find it refreshing that some games are going to be give advantages based on how much you can afford.
Think of the positive incentive this will give players to succeed in the real world first, and in gaming worlds 2nd. I think the system is a bit backwards today and rewards gamers for the wrong behavior.
RMT is cheating thats all it is, cheating legally. i cant believe that a person would by a game and then pay more money to get all the best items, aren't games supposed to be fun? wheres the reward if you can just buy that epic sword with real money. The new mmo generation of players are ruining the genre ,with their constant whining about i cant compete with other players, or i suck at pvp so i dont like it. rewarding a player because of the size of his bank account is a step backwards in my opinion.
What the hell kind of mmorpg site is this, where they pay tools like that Sanya broad to write 'articles" blaming the players for every fuck up devs do, and now they got this joker writing abut how RMT is the best thing ever.
Why not just name this site WEARESELLOUTS.COM_ and be done with it?
You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games.
I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!
Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you).
I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.
The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
Hell, just seeing an "Item Mall" button on the interface throws me off. I can't stand it, personally. I'll dabble with the F2P MMOs, but I'll never spend money on them. Like you, I think it completely breaks immersion and undermines the point of playing in the first place for me.
On that note, I have an issue with what the author writes here:
"To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."
He seems to be of that spoiled "have my cake and eat it, too" mindset. He wants to spend all his time doing only what he wants to do, but still have access to the good stuff, when he wants it.
It's actually a perfect illustration of why I'm against it. Exploring is a lot of fun, I enjoy doing it as well... but I don't believe that because I didn't spend any/enough time trying to earn a good piece of armor, or a weapon, or xp, that I'm *entitled* to it. Hell no. If I want that good item, then I'm not going to spend that time exploring.. Instead I'm going to spend it working to acquire that weapon/armor/etc. It's something that improves my character... why shouldn't I have to earn it by defeating a tough mob, completing a difficult quest, etc? It's *part of playing the game*. Sorry, I've just never subscribed to that "silver platter" mentality.
MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game". It's so ridiculous to me to see people taking a genre that was founded around the idea of an on-going adventure that could be played for years without reaching "the end", and trying to reduce it to an ADD Paradise.
As for it not constituting a problem for anyone else... It very well can constitute a problem. Ever experienced elitism in a MMO? Elitism over gear, etc? I have, plenty. If there's a sword you can purchase, and it's deemed a "must-have" weapon, then there will be people who will shun you from parties for not having it. So now, if you want to be able to participate in parties, etc, you need to pull out the Visa and buy it. Expand that out to armor, or potions, etc. etc. That very well *can* be a problem, especially for people on a tight budget... which leads me to my next point.
And those who believe MMOs will keep it only to "fluff" items... Come on. Their goal is to make money. They're not going to base their entire business model on an Item Mall system that people never have to use. They'd go broke. They might introduce fluff items first, to warm people up to the idea. But over time, more and more necessary items will become available.
As has been said before, if an Item Mall is implemented for anything beyond mere fluff items and there's no equivalent to be earned via in-game means, then it can very well cause a wide gap. When Bob with the seemingly limitless credit line can simply whip out his Visa and buy whatever he wants and have an uber-equipped character... while the next guy can only afford, maybe, some health pots or something... Guess who's going to most likely win in a PvP fight? Bob... not necessarily because he's better... simply because he had more $$$ to gear himself up better.
It's lame.
Subscription based games provide a level playing field for all players. Everyone pays the same fee. Everyone has the same access to the same gear and items in-game. It's just a more fair way to go about it.
Hell, just seeing an "Item Mall" button on the interface throws me off. I can't stand it, personally. I'll dabble with the F2P MMOs, but I'll never spend money on them. Like you, I think it completely breaks immersion and undermines the point of playing in the first place for me.
On that note, I have an issue with what the author writes here:
"To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."
He seems to be of that spoiled "have my cake and eat it, too" mindset. He wants to spend all his time doing only what he wants to do, but still have access to the good stuff, when he wants it.
It's actually a perfect illustration of why I'm against it. Exploring is a lot of fun, I enjoy doing it as well... but I don't believe that because I didn't spend any/enough time trying to earn a good piece of armor, or a weapon, or xp, that I'm *entitled* to it. Hell no. If I want that good item, then I'm not going to spend that time exploring.. Instead I'm going to spend it working to acquire that weapon/armor/etc. It's something that improves my character... why shouldn't I have to earn it by defeating a tough mob, completing a difficult quest, etc? It's *part of playing the game*. Sorry, I've just never subscribed to that "silver platter" mentality.
MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game". It's so ridiculous to me to see people taking a genre that was founded around the idea of an on-going adventure that could be played for years without reaching "the end", and trying to reduce it to an ADD Paradise.
As for it not constituting a problem for anyone else... It very well can constitute a problem. Ever experienced elitism in a MMO? Elitism over gear, etc? I have, plenty. If there's a sword you can purchase, and it's deemed a "must-have" weapon, then there will be people who will shun you from parties for not having it. So now, if you want to be able to participate in parties, etc, you need to pull out the Visa and buy it. Expand that out to armor, or potions, etc. etc. That very well *can* be a problem, especially for people on a tight budget... which leads me to my next point.
And those who believe MMOs will keep it only to "fluff" items... Come on. Their goal is to make money. They're not going to base their entire business model on an Item Mall system that people never have to use. They'd go broke. They might introduce fluff items first, to warm people up to the idea. But over time, more and more necessary items will become available.
As has been said before, if an Item Mall is implemented for anything beyond mere fluff items and there's no equivalent to be earned via in-game means, then it can very well cause a wide gap. When Bob with the seemingly limitless credit line can simply whip out his Visa and buy whatever he wants and have an uber-equipped character... while the next guy can only afford, maybe, some health pots or something... Guess who's going to most likely win in a PvP fight? Bob... not necessarily because he's better... simply because he had more $$$ to gear himself up better.
It's lame.
Subscription based games provide a level playing field for all players. Everyone pays the same fee. Everyone has the same access to the same gear and items in-game. It's just a more fair way to go about it.
Well said.
I really dont mind F2P games with item malls.......I have never even looked at what items are in the item mall and they are no temptation for me.....The item malls are only temptaitons for the lazy, spoiled, or ones that feel they have to be superior to other players......It really doesnt matter to me if I hit level 50 or level 20 in most games....I play as long as I am having fun and when it gets stale I move on.
To make an RMT based game viable long term a company needs to give players incentives to return to the shop repeatedly to purchase more of what it is selling. The only way to do this long term seems to be increase the scale of power of items in the shop or make gameplay more difficult without it. Maybe a combination of both.
Eventually people will get enough clothing, emotes, mounts that those types of items just will not be as big of a draw as they initially were. The only option left is to make gameplay suffer for those who chose not to buy whatever widget they are selling this week. That is the achilles heel of that type of design process. Eventually the revenue system gets in the way of making a fun game.
My problem with RMT are the things that are taken out of the games to incorporate the RMT.
Specifically, crafting. You can't have a game where everything good is created by players when the publisher is trying to sell stuff in the item store. Likewise, there's no point in crafting when all the really good stuff is available through RMT only.
That's why games cannot ever have a robust player economy with RMT in place. There's simply no point in buying or selling goods and services in the game when the good stuff is sold on the publisher's website.
In games with RMT, players are no longer creators of their world. They are consumers of the world the developers create for them. The player's role in these games is to show up, consume content, and then leave after they've consumed all the content they are willing to pay for. There is no incentive for players to do anything else, since the games put the item mall at the center of a player's experience, rather than let the players create their own community that satisfies their needs.
See, the big problem with RMT isn't about how much money is made. The problem with RMT is how the games have to change in order to make the RMT scheme work. You can't have sandbox-style virtual worlds and player-centric features in a game with RMT, because the publishers want the player's experience to revolve around the out-of-game mall, rather than around the in-game, player generated mall.
And so in order for RMT to work, games have to either get rid of the player-generated mall, or make the player generated mall so useless, nobody would want to go there.
I see some people here attempting to use logic to explain how they think RMT is fair or not a problem, without realizing that logic is a two way street, not just one direction.
For example, if RMT is fair in the virtual world, then the oppsosite would hold true in the real world. I should be able to go join that nice country gold cliub without any wealth what-so-ever( this would be the opposite of buying in). Obviously, this is not possible. In the real world we have to work for our wealth. In the virtual world we have to work for our wealth,see how the logic holds true in both directions?
There should not be anyway for a person who played a game one week to be ahead of someone who played one month. It is that simple.
Let's expand this logic into the business side of the game. If this really made any logical sense, then developers should be making more money from this business model,yet the opposite holds true. By allowing RMT into the game they are not only increasing those poorer players angst towards them, they are also providing shortcuts to the rich players.This leads to higher player turn over, as both types of players leave much sooner than they normally would.
Do you think any of these F2P games have even come close to making the money Eve or WOW has from their game?
By making a decision to allow RMT into their games, these developers have actually cut themselves out of money. How logical is that business decision?
RMT helps nobody in the end.It only cheapens the game play experience and this is neither logical nor good business sense.
How can anyone justify that?
Logically,no one can.
Axe
Why don't I just smack you all with my wallet! lol
Eve Online allows RMT of a sort. You can pay real money for game time codes and sell those codes in-game. They do not condone buying in-game money for real money directly or the reverse. The reason this works for this game is that it has a true free-market economy. There are no NPCs who are going to buy your loot and set artificial item valuation. The value of an item is set by the player demand. As such, the value of game time codes are set by player demand. The other factor that drives Eve's economy is all gear is tradable and you lose gear on death (some is randomly destroyed and the rest is lootable).
What is it with Richard Aihoshi and his petty hatred of the subscription model? First his boner for F2P, and now this.
Sorry, but its popular because it works. I dont like the idea of people being able to pay for in-game advantages. Thats why all the best MMOs are subscription.
MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game".
Heh heh, owned. That about sums up my opinion as well.
If you want to do whatever you want, why play an MMO at all? Just play a single player game in co-op mode. The reason most people play MMOs is the fame factor, and RMT/F2P/whatever is a way of cheating in that regard. You are buying fame. People with money get an advantage.
And I think most people who play MMOs understand that implicitly. Which is why those models will never be more than a niche. Subscription isnt necessarily a level playing field, but it is the closest thing we have seen to one so far.
When I spoke of EVE I was speaking of their player longivity and sub income versus the non-existant sub rate of F2P models. I thought that was obvious as I spoke of income in that particular paragraph.
Not much sense in trying to pick apart someone else's post if you do not read all of it or grasp all the concepts being laid out. :)
I agree with Dana. These last few years I've played several games a few F2P included and probably spent overall few hundred dollars. If it happens over a long period of time it doesn't mean as much since it matches the same amount of money if I'd try all those lazy lame MMORPGs that are being release unfinished and with no content. Every P2P MMO has a standard "fee" included. You need to buy a copy of the game ~50$ and then 15$ a month. So its 65$ you want it or not.
Game like "Runes of Magic" for example, you can spend those 65$ and may never need anything from Item Mall again and have enough left to try anything new and unique when they add new items to IM. You can buy 1-2 mounts, Costume - which looks like an end-game gear, except that it has no stats, but you can aggregate later stats on it, just play the game, get the gear and combine them. You can buy a 2 story house (all the houses have maids in RoM), furniture, exp potions, train point potions, charms that will allow you to store exp and tp which makes leveling and progressing faster, etc...
Just an example of what 65$ can get you these days. There are other F2p games, that are considerably more expensive. Atlantica Online for example if you are an Item Mall customer will probably make you spend several hundreds of dollars before you get anything really valuable. Most of the valuable items are a part of a gambling box mixed within other 16-19 items, so you roll the dice like in casino. Some people spend thousands of dollars there just to get all they need for the highest Divisions of Free League, which is the most popular PvP mode in Atlantica.
So seeing all the games being released by Asian developers (I think there was at least 5 new games with Item Malls released last year or so) I could say that RMT is affecting gaming market a lot. Local developers and publishers like SOE try to legalize it to make it look less like an Item Mall and more like a part of legit investment. Same example with TCGs and reward of an in-game items. Instead of just taking your money like Asian F2Ps do and giving you the real items you get mini-games to spend that money on. TCGs are one of the most popular since they require you to buy starter decks and deck boosters to get all the cards you need and sometimes people spend as much money as if they'd buy expensive items through Item Malls in F2P games.
There is a problem though. Players in MMOs these days tend to gett hrough the content as fast as possible to get to the end-game that most of the time in new released MMOs is unfinished and unpolished. Can you give me an example of a really enjoyable MMO (except LOTRO) that game actually focuses on your 'journey' to level cap. This example with table-top game would be awesome if developers really cared about the time that we actually spend to get to level cap and the end game content. In todays MMOs most focus is on PvP, Quests are repetitive, redundant gameplay, simply not fun.
Thats why most people just run from Npc to Npc, quickly click accept without even reading anything and rush to complete these quests to get another batch loaded, then rinse and repeat. Games are degrading so does the content. I can't say that any of the lately released 'standard monthly fee' MMOs are actually any fun. Unless of course you're 12 and all you need is PvP. Then you just rush through levels, get to level cap and enjoy the high level PvP by killing noobs.
I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?
Subscription based games do not provide a level playing field. Like stated in the article it's a question of time v.s. money. Sub based games are biased towards players with enough time, RMT games are biased toward players with money, finding a balance/combination of both is the key here where through time you can reach the same goals as you can reach by paying extra or vice versa. While it's hard to describe "the point" of MMO's, i believe "provide entertainment" comes pretty close and people are entertained in different ways. While you like to "work " for your sword of almightyness, i like to do other stuff and then "pay" for mine, we both do what we enjoy and have the same result, where's the harm in that?
I'd like to get some numbers on how RMT has helped or hurt these 'F2P' games.
I think RMT = easy way out for poor development. You should never be able to pay enough cash to pwn.
I can see where people that simply can't game much might be attracted by the concept of shelling out a few bucks to catch up or surpass the gamers that are capable of devoting more time to the game... but that should never happen either.
Cash = time/effort should NOT become part of the gaming world.
Just my opinion, obviously, but it just shouldn't.
I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?
Subscription based games do not provide a level playing field. Like stated in the article it's a question of time v.s. money. Sub based games are biased towards players with enough time, RMT games are biased toward players with money, finding a balance/combination of both is the key here where through time you can reach the same goals as you can reach by paying extra or vice versa. While it's hard to describe "the point" of MMO's, i believe "provide entertainment" comes pretty close and people are entertained in different ways. While you like to "work " for your sword of almightyness, i like to do other stuff and then "pay" for mine, we both do what we enjoy and have the same result, where's the harm in that?
Finally, someone gets it. Had to happen sometime. Drop all the name calling about people who favor the RMT model being unskilled, or not able to succeed, the simple truth is we're not willing to trade free time for grinding when other options exist. (reason I play both EVE and ROM btw)
Note, I don't play in games where illegal RMT would affect other players, I keep to the games which support the model.
In ROM there's a player who has spent 4K on his gear and yes, he'll always be far better than I since I'll never spend that sort of cash. But I don't have some sort of epeen issues where I have to be the biggest or the baddest player on the server. Truth is, I've helped kill this same highly geared player a couple of times, we compensated with numbers and took him down.
Sure, if you feel the need to win one on one this might be a problem, but in my book, when loot is on the line, you win any way possible, as long as you win big.
Numbers? I'll give you a number:
100% development support in F2P games comes from those people who actually spends money in Item Mall. Its also a good way to make a profit for that game devs.
I don't know if there are many people, who has a decent job and likes to play MMO, that has never tried to spend some money in Item Malls. And usually if they do it once, they will do it again in other similar games. And in some cases they actually enjoy those games more than regular per-month fee games.
Also F2P games are developed that way to make it feel repetitive and full of grind unless you spend some cash. What you think those devs are stupid and don't know what they are doing? Unskilled, undetermined they call those who spend cash? Well, those who call them that way probably just don't have any extra money to spend. I hope we're not talking about jelousy being covered by some excuse of determination of cracking that F2p grind fest.
"OH YEAH I JUST GRINDED FOR 2 WEEKs STRAIGHT TO GET ME THAT MOUNT." Good for you pal, but I'd rather spend some cash, buy that mount and spend that time enjoying my life with family and friends. Its just my option. Because I do have some extra money and I prefer to spend my time in game having fun instead of gnashing my teeth against the wall of dumb grind that was created in this F2P game for the sole purpose to make your game experience miserable and give you a hint that "Hey hey, your mount is only click away".
RMT must be stopped at every corner no matter the source DEVS or gold sellers they must all be stopped i will never ever play a game that uses it as a payment model because it is a way for marketers to lie to you you pay your sub and you EXPCET to have the ability to access all parts of the game off your own play time and all the content if its an F2P game they are falsely advertising their product which is illegal in many countries because the game is NOT free to play you have to pay if you want to be able to access all the content and the like
this is why the insidious RMT must be fought at every corner of every street on the beaches in the towns in the fields and forests
Did you read "Korea was a third world country?" If not, you shouldn't be so defensive.
It's obvious why you don't post here often. You have 3 posts and used one of them to call someone's post "silly" while seeing what you wanted to see and making your own inferences into the thread.
You probably should stick to lurking. You apparently do that much better.
Free to Play clearly means that you don't have to pay to play the game. It would be a pretty arguable subject that insist that free to play also means free access to all that game has to offer. Game content is free in F2P games. You can't really consider Item Mall items a game content. All the explorable content in the game is in fact free to get to. Except that you will be spending endless hours to grind things.
Actually, because of the Item Mall customers F2P games are not as grind focused any more. For example in Atlantica Online the main thing about the game is to upgrade your mercenaries and that takes crystals and jewels. Almost every box that Item mall offers has jewels with the highest percentage to win. So the Market actually flooded with jewels. People go for mount boxes and instead get lots of jewels. Price goes down from 6 million per a jewel to like 350K.
On this example you can very well see how Item Mall customers influence the market prices and make that way game for those who play without spending any cash easier. But they still need to grind mobs for gold. And in most cases those who never spend cash on Item Mall turn to gold sellers. Since its cheaper in Atlantica case.
I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?
Because he wants to be able to pay to get a leg up on someone else. If I am playing in the same game world, I basically have to end up shelling out money to compete on a level playing field.
Not saying that there should be a law against RMT games. Just explaining why they are so unappealing to the vast majority of the MMO player base. The author is wrong; RMT will never ever catch on as a standard for reasons I just described. Not in a million billion years.
I know a lot of people like to trash talk the RMT model, but A LOT of people buy in to it...probably even some of those who even trash talk it.
But I put my money where my mouth is. I'm a gamer...have been for 30 years. I will NEVER play an RMT based game.
Come back here in 3-4 years. It will not be a standard for most of the gaming market, but you will see a great influence in game development. You will see companies advertising their products in most modern P2P games (maybe not the fantasy ones), different micro-transaction modes and add-ons embedded into some games, etc. While RMT may not be as a standard to develop new games based on but it has enough influence to create new forms of it. You already know about TCGs that plays a big role in a several MMOs and DLCs on Xbox Live is just an example on how this is being advanced.
RMT was never something to make you consider as an obligation in the game. It was invented by Asian developers as an attempt to cater to more casual players, attract attention to themselves with a 'FREE' tag and promote their financial program to support the game and make profit in the meantime.
I know a lot of people like to trash talk the RMT model, but A LOT of people buy in to it...
What percentage of the player base? Is it even 5%? 1%? RMT is a niche, just like F2P is a niche. And I dont see that changing anytime soon if at all.
But I put my money where my mouth is. I'm a gamer...have been for 30 years. I will NEVER play an RMT based game.
Ditto. I just dont see the point. If it ever caught on I would go back to single player games or consoles.
Ditto.
Game companies can adopt this strategy of they please. Just will not get my money. Monthly fee is one thing. I like the option of being able to play when I want and get a product that has developers working on any bugs or issues in the game. Also, adding new content and such for the monthly fee.
Paying for a new shiney inside the game does not appeal to me at all. Now, something that is negligable to game play? Housing, pets, items to place in a house? Those are all things that are not conducive to playing. In most cases I do not strive for player owned houseing because the upkeep in gameing coin makes the whole concept a job to support that item than enjoying it. However, there are those players who love this type of thing. So be it.
Come back here in 3-4 years. It will not be a standard for most of the gaming market, but you will see a great influence in game development.
"Most" of the market? It wont even be the standard for a minority of the market.
RMT was never something to make you consider as an obligation in the game. It was invented by Asian developers as an attempt to cater to more casual players, attract attention to themselves with a 'FREE' tag and promote their financial program to support the game and make profit in the meantime.
And I dont doubt there is a big demand for it over there in Asia, because most of them (meaning Chinese/Korean/Ect..) dont have the incomes to support a subscription game at the moment. As their standards of living increase however (and they are), I predict the subscription model will become more popular over there as well.
If given a real choice (one not bound by income) they will choose the subscription model just like we have.
That "free" tag has become synonymous with "low quality and/or no support". Its only attractive if you dont have an income to support a subscription.
Not the way i read it. He wants to enjoy the game in more ways than simply grinding for the next level/high-end equipment by paying in order to keep up with friends who do like that sort of thing, and why shouldn't he? To reverse your statement: If i'm playing in the same game world, I basically have to give up my job and social/family activities to compete on a level playing field with a student playing 8h/day
Most ubers/hard-core players 'earned' their position by making long hours playing their game, the introduction of real money is seen as a threat to quickly lose that position to others who are willing to spend more money. Maybe that's why it seems unappealing to most. The way i see it running a marathon in 2 hours remains impressive even though someone willing to buy a motorcycle can do it in 10 minutes.
Yup, you bet there are. Why do you guys think these F2P clones multiply like rabbits? Its a popular thing amongst mature gaming community. While some of you may consider not to be involved and spend your extra money on something else there will always be people who will max their credit cards just to get that stupid mount... What I personally hope for is that RMT mechanics will be advanced, I already see a difference in RoM for example comparing to early F2P games. RMT needs to be perfected, changed, tweaked, adjusted towards the cash spending player needs not the greed of the company developer.
Thats how I think it will be mixed with todays MMO standards.
The largest MMOs in the world are F2P.
Source please. List the F2P MMOs with larger player bases than WoW or Everquest.
One of the major attractions of playing an MMO is earning weapon and armor upgrades through questing. It says something about your determination and skill if you've fought your way thorough 10 levels of a dungeon to get to final boss to get that uber sword. With RMT, good weapons and armor are no longer a function of skill and determination but of how much you have in your wallet.
It's for the immediate gratification crowd who want the best equipment but don't want to work for it and it destroys the "bragging rights" of players who've taken the time and effort to EARN what they have. It is the ultimate dumbing down of a genre that's already been dumbed down by unimaginative and copycat game play, making "quests" the equivalent of a "jobs" (i.e. collect 10 wolf pelts and 10 spider sacs and get a 10 silver payment) repeating those "quests" at different levels, removing penalties for "dying" in game, etc all for the benefit of lazy gamers, and stockholders that want larger dividends on their investments.
I've played MMOs since there were MMOs and put up with all the crap these gaming companies have thrown at me. However, if RMT is instituted in ANY MMO I'm currently playing, I'm gone, period.
You know, I'm actually inclined to agree with a lot of these points, mostly because I read it and I found I couldn't retort with anything more intelligent than yelling "Well, you're STUPID!" at the computer screen.
Not the way i read it. He wants to enjoy the game in more ways than simply grinding for the next level/high-end equipment by paying in order to keep up with friends who do like that sort of thing, and why shouldn't he?
I alrerady explained why; because he is able to buy his way ahead of me in a game world we are both playing in. The best characters in the game are no longer the people who have been there the longest or played the best or whatever...they are the people with the most money to spend on the game.
And like I already said...I'm not saying they shouldnt be allowed to do it. I am explaining why such a setup is unappealing to me and (IMO) most MMO gamers.
Thats like saying "why should I be able to do whatever the hell I want in any MMO I play?? If it helps me enjoy the game more, where is the harm??".
Most ubers/hard-core players 'earned' their position by making long hours playing their game
Which, IMO, is better than your alternative of allowing them to simply buy their position.
the introduction of real money is seen as a threat to quickly lose that position to others who are willing to spend more money.
Of course it is. What is the point of trying to advance in a game where anyone can simply buy their way ahead of me?
Maybe that's why it seems unappealing to most. The way i see it running a marathon in 2 hours remains impressive even though someone willing to buy a motorcycle can do it in 10 minutes.
So why dont Marathons allow people on motorcycles to enter them? Why are all the runners ruining the "fun" of the motor cyclists? If thats the way they want to do the race, why cant they participate too?
I had the impression your article finished before it was concluded... Was it a technical issue?
...or you really wanted to finish the text that way?
I read into it that way becuse the largest Free 2 Play Markets are Korea and China , hence equating your "are mainly run" comment to mean those two countrys as those are pretty much the largest markets for said payment model which would equal "mainly run" at least to me at any rate.
This article is about the inevitabilyt of RMT. Some people dont seem to agree that this is inevitable, or that it will happen soon. So I have a question. What major North American Game Publisher does NOT already support RMT in some format?
Here are publishers that do:
Blizzard
SOE
NCSoft
EA
and honestly, I am not aware of any that do not....
I guess that depends on how you define RMT...IMO, buying a costume piece in City of Heroes when there are thousands of free ones available doesnt make the game RMT. It is still a subscription game. And you cannot buy advancement with money.
You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games.
I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!
That's true, games are meant to be played and are meant to be fun. That does not invalidate the fact that people are going out and spending money to mitigate certain aspects of these games. And they are going through secondary companies.
It is not out of the realm of feasibility that a company, seeing that people are spending money on these secondary companies, would like to take that money for themselves.
And the point of the matter is that no matter what you or anyone else things about whether it is fun or not to use real money to bypass parts of the game, people are doing it.
More than likely they are doing it to bypass the things that they don't think are fun in order to get to the parts where they do think the fun is.
It's not good but that is probably the truth of it.
And more to the point, these games attract such a wide variety of people that it makes sense that there are parts of these games that just don't appeal to certain people.
So no matter what, even if a certain amount of players staunchly proclaim that they will never play a game with RMT, there are so many players using it that it sends a very mixed message to developers.
"We would never use rmt...." then you go on the internet and there are thriving rmt sites. Something doesn't add up there. What is a developer to do then?
That is like saying:
I dont buy stuff online, I just use Ebay.
RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.
There are many ways of getting in the cash for a MMO company. RMT is one of them but many companys do good with P2P, Arenanet are doing well by just charging for the game and the expansions and you can put in-game or in-UI adds, have a large life-time fee like you can use in LOTRO also. And there must be other ways to get in the cash too.
Nothing is inevitable 'cept death and taxes.
That is like saying:
I dont buy stuff online, I just use Ebay.
RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.
Non-sense,if a player in WoW pays to change his name or pays to mover server then that doesnt effect me playing against him but once he starts this,I quote from the OP here
"If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."
Then it does effect when I am playing against him,so no not all RMT is the same.
ps.
on a side note Aihoshi why not just pay for a leveling service while you are at it, then buy all the end game gear,that way you dont have to goto the trouble of even playing the game,save's alot of time and you can just brag how great you are
I would assume some form of RMT is inevitable for the sole reason that its already occuring as a result of third party sites. So businesses see that and since there is right now in every P2P game people who do buy currency and items (even though one would like to pretend there are not) the gaming companies are simply taking back the business which was theirs to start with. So rmt in P2P makes sense to me although others cry foul it does from the company's perspecitve make sense and heck its a lot safter for those users that engage in that stuff. Since I have never found a need to spend money in P2P games outside of a subscription I will be no more or less affected by these stores, but those that are taking risks are in fact being given a more secure means to do this which is a good thing for them.
As for it becoming a trend. I think its already a trend as all the major game creators (including the beloved blizzard who can do no wrong) are doing it. Its here already and the trend has been set.
I still would rather play a subscription based game with some RMT items like potions on the side or other items which I can get either by grinding or paying cash then play the F2P game where the cost at times seems to go up at an alarmingly fast rate in some cases because all gear needs to be purchased that way. Granted not all F2P games are like that, but unfortunately the ones I was actually interested in were like that.
When it comes to MMOs, if you didn't earn it, you shouldn't have it. Sob story about time/earning your money/blah blah blah, too bad. There's little point to an MMO if you can just buy your way through as everything becomes trivialized. Cosmetic items/house items I don't see a problem with, but once you start buying items with in-game equivilents, or when superior cash shop items arise/become required, it's over the top. The TCGs I personally see as a fools errand, because while the games can be fun, and the loot cards are mostly benign (at least in EQ2, the SWG ones I've heard are pretty damn game breaking), I can't see how anyone could attach that much value to cards of which you have no physical copy of, and that are essentially randomly generated when you buy them. In other words, you're paying $2.99 for their server to copy/paste 8 random cards. I can't see that as anything but being ripped off.
Hmmm paying real money for digital 1's and 0's you will never own. No thanks.
That's true, games are meant to be played and are meant to be fun. That does not invalidate the fact that people are going out and spending money to mitigate certain aspects of these games. ... And the point of the matter is that no matter what you or anyone else things about whether it is fun or not to use real money to bypass parts of the game, people are doing it.
The fact that they can buy their way ahead of me makes the game less fun for me. Does my fun count too?
People are circumventing the rules right now only because they can get away with it. RMT advocates want to make it legal to do that within the game. I want to make it HARDER to circumvent the rules, not easier.
It is not out of the realm of feasibility that a company, seeing that people are spending money on these secondary companies, would like to take that money for themselves...
Is it worth losing their subscriber base over?
More than likely they are doing it to bypass the things that they don't think are fun in order to get to the parts where they do think the fun is.
So if the only way I can have fun is playing in God mode, does that justify me hacking the game to allow me to do whatever I want? Gimme a break. Rules exist for a reason. No rules would be less fun.
"We would never use rmt...." then you go on the internet and there are thriving rmt sites.
Where are these thriving RMT games at? Show me a few.
All the best MMOs use a subscription model. RMT is niche at best.
RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.
In this context they are one in the same, because the RMT model gives some players an advantage over others. It is no longer about skill or time.
The issue is not really even about the money, but the effect the money has on the game. In a subscription model, there is the perception (real or imagined) that there is a level playing field. Even if there is not, it is still better than the RMT alternative IMO.
Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you).
I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.
The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further. If you do not get it by now, continue to "play" your game with your credit card. I find it illogical to play a GAME that I do not have time for nor enjoy so I pay for items instead of playing it myself. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If I felt I didn't have enough time to play a game I would quit, it's very simple. I would go to something I had time to you know actually PLAY considering that is why you buy games.
Edit: So your logic is, with a subscription based MMO GAME you PLAY to get items. If that said game has virtual items for cash then you get to bypass PLAYING the GAME by pulling out your credit card and obtaining the items. Just wow .... you may want to take a step back and read what you wrote. You do realize these are games right and in games that is what you do is play them?
Why even play if you don't want to? I should created an MMO where you sit in town and put in your credit card information to get items and then you stand there and stare at it. Games are meant to be played, if the game play isn't fun then quit. Some people need to take a step back and realize what games are.
I concur.
I dont understand how anyone would ever consider spending real money on buying ingame stuff. I mean, the whole point of the game is to COMPETE with your skill, not your wallet. Its like buying olympic gold medal. Whats the point if you haven't earned it? And I am not even talking about how this affects those that do NOT want to spend money. The author's logic puzzles me because he somehow does not sees this. Makes me wonder if this is the beginning of the RMT promotion campaign by a gaming group or something. How would you, having bought godly sword of destruction, NOT affect me if I am not able to buy it or earn it? If you want to explore and not level, then you have no right to complain that you are X levels below me if all I did is level and not explore.
I won't mind (like so many others) if RMT items were pure cosmetics, but I would not support it because the lne between cosmetic and non-cosmetic items is just too thin. Devs will always be tempted to cross it. At first its cosmetic items, eye candy. Then its potion, you know, nothing serious. Yeah sure they do give u exp bonus, but thats not a big bonus. Then comes the items and thats the end of it.
Any kind of purchase of in-game items for real currency IS affecting those that do not want to spend their money. There is just no way around it, however eloquently you write your article.
For me its simple - I see micro-transactions and I stop reading.
Simple...
Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you).
I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.
The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further. If you do not get it by now, continue to "play" your game with your credit card. I find it illogical to play a GAME that I do not have time for nor enjoy so I pay for items instead of playing it myself. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If I felt I didn't have enough time to play a game I would quit, it's very simple. I would go to something I had time to you know actually PLAY considering that is why you buy games.
I understand your point pretty well. You like to play games that encourage you to earn your character's prestige, and you feel that if people don't do that they're cheating themselves. I think you're just saying I can't understand and that you're not going to explain it further because you really can't extrapolate on a subject you haven't even made clear in the first place.
All you've been doing is saying "I am having FUN doing it my WAY and I don't SEE how you're having FUN, SO you're a moron and I SHALL scorn YOU with half-assed SARCASM." When anyone offers a counter-point, you just treat them like a moron because they don't agree with you and repeat the same message in so many words. I also think it's kind of strange how you assume I play micro games even though I haven't said as much and although I have tried them, I don't use the item malls and I'm not really playing one now. My fave games so far have been WoW, Darkfall, and Warhammer Online.
All I'm saying is...
Sorry, I just lost interest in this topic. Defending RMT is like yelling at people from on top of a pile of crap and wondering why everyone thinks you smell.
Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you).
I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.
Why do you need to depict it as "an issue" for someone to find the process of earning their in-game items instead of buying them? Your idea of fun might be "having" those items with as little effort as possible. For other people, obtaining those items is part of playing the game... part of the fun. To characterize a gameplay preference as "an issue" is pretty narrow-minded.
The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
No.. the "Fact of the Matter" is, when you pay a subscription game, you're paying for the service, for the ability to log in and play, be it to run quests all day, hunt for items, raid non-stop, or just stand around and chat. What content you decide to go after is up to you. The idea behind a game is to provide a challenge... to win the game, be the "last one standing", or what have you. In MMOs, you set goals for what you want to achieve through your character and then proceed to *play the game* to achieve those goals. Some of those goals include obtaining good gear for your character. If it's a meaningful achievement, then what's wrong with having to put some effort into obtaining it?
When I look at some of items I've acquired, or achievements I've earned in FFXI, for example, I think back on the experiences fondly.. of the difficulty I had achieving those goals, tough fights, close-calls, difficult quests, the fun I had with the people who helped me, etc. etc. It gives those items and those achievements meaning beyond just what stat boosts they give me. What kind of satisfaction is there, other than fulfilling the whole feeling of "I want it now", in seeing a good piece of gear, pulling out your Visa card and simply buying it? That's what I can't fathom.
MMOs now have spoiled people into believing that the idea of playing a game is to get everything "now" or as fast as possible. No wonder so many get bored and are ready to move on to the next one only 2 months after they started. Everything's practically handed to them.
And I'm not sure why you have to characterize working for something in a game in such a negative way... "grind like a mother", "grinding ad nauseum", etc. You want people to respect your preferred playstyle, while you're making these passive jabs at theirs. Kinda hypocritical, no?
There are other reasons not to like the idea of Item Malls in games, and those reasons have already been discussed in this thread. That you choose to ignore the other reasons and try to narrow it down to "people wanting to grind like a mother ad nauseum" is pretty disingenuous.
I'll even turn it around and call BS on these people who have "more money than time": what entitles them to have access to the same accomplishments that someone who has put more time into the game? Take any casual, real world, sporting hobyy as an example - if I have more time to put into playing volleyball, pool, bowling, poker or whatever - I'm going to do better, win more events and have access to more levels of competition. No one would consider it "fair" for you to hire the Buffalo Bills offensive line offseason to win a casual football league, so why should we consider that kind of advantage "okay" for an MMO?
(otherwise the previous post nailed it)
Well said.
and yet i wonder...
what if we dont give a Rat's Tail about PvP?
Well said.
and yet i wonder...
what if we dont give a Rat's Tail about PvP?
PvP was just an example I used.
Please don't try pulling that "the example given is the only applicable one" crap. It won't fly.
I also noted the elitism that can rise out of something like that and can affect other players who don't have the finances to run out and buy every new "must have or you suck" item that comes along. I notice you ignored that point though - not coincidentally, I'm sure.
Well...
I...
But... he...
Damn. You got me good. Okay, I'm sorry. I'll try harder to remember all the points of a discussion.
But you have to admit... the phrase "grind like a mother ad nauseum" is funny when taken out of context. :D
ok then lets go though some key PvE secnarios then.
RTMer can not trade or sell items, does not team with you:
Effect on you? None
RTMer can not trade or sell items, does team with you:
Effect on you? Better team?
RTMer can trade or sell items:
Effect on you? The same item he bought RTM you can grind for and buy at AH. Even Play.
Not the way i read it. He wants to enjoy the game in more ways than simply grinding for the next level/high-end equipment by paying in order to keep up with friends who do like that sort of thing, and why shouldn't he? To reverse your statement: If i'm playing in the same game world, I basically have to give up my job and social/family activities to compete on a level playing field with a student playing 8h/day
Most ubers/hard-core players 'earned' their position by making long hours playing their game, the introduction of real money is seen as a threat to quickly lose that position to others who are willing to spend more money. Maybe that's why it seems unappealing to most. The way i see it running a marathon in 2 hours remains impressive even though someone willing to buy a motorcycle can do it in 10 minutes.
Except you don't see the Marathon runner and the motorcyclyst competing in the same race. If they did, the motorcyclist would be frowned upon and laughed at for buying a motorcycle to win because he spent his time in the office earning money for the motorcycle rather than training for the big race.
Why do people who have jobs and families WANT to compete with people who have more time on their hands? Just play the game at your pace? I know many who do. RMT hurts games more than it helps, cripples economies, unbalances PvP and creates classes of living... those who pay and those who don't. In fact casual play or hardcore play is not even a real issue when it comes to RMT. There are MANY "hardcores" who have lots of money. So they play like they have no lives and pay for RMT to boot. Then there are MANY casuals who just take the game slow. You don't see them because you are looking towards the finish line.
The purpose of an MMORPG is every action you take affects others around you. Some people seem to think it doesn't that we shouldn't care. I played Lineage 2 for a long time and finally got fed up, I will not play a game controlled by Ebayers/Botters/RMTers ever again. I'll play a game controlled by whoever demonstrates the most teamwork, skill and organization.
I agree that RMT is inevitable, and I also agree with the article, that by and large it does do no objective damage. In a capitalist free market, trading goods/money VS time/work is a pretty normal thing. People sell their work time for coin. Whats new in this? When I am buying 20 castles and 20 horses and 20 golden armors with my dollars, it is nobodies frigging business. Period. The alternative is communism, where "authorities" regulate what you can do.
I agree however that PVP should not be influence for apparent reasons.
Some vocal minority of "old school hardcore whatevers" try to keep this away with religious zeal and for purely fictional reasons. Most gamers don't care a rats ass, as the mass usage of gold buying proofs. Like alcohol prohibition, forbidding some thing just does not work. End of story.
Well first off, anyone that says they will pay about the same for an RMT game as a subscription game are you in for a surprise. RMT will cost more . Once you are in for a little bit it will expand be more and more and more.....
Personally I see the market divirging. There are a lot of MMO players out there that just won't play a game where you can buy your way to success. So I think subscription games will still be around for the long haul. Since almost any game today has some form of pvp you will be forced to spend significant funds if you intend to experience that portion of the game. That will turn a lot of people off. So while Mr Aihoshi does not feel it is a big deal if people can use RMT to enchance their character developement, there are a significant portion of us who won't play such a game.
There is also the Eve way too. You can basically buy game time in Eve and sell it to other players for the in game currency, hence it can be classified as RMT. The interesting thing here is that it does not advance your character one iota as skill growth is determined over real time rather than game time. Even having lots of isk to spend does not make your character that much better.
So look for a definite divurgence rather than RMT becoming the standard. The smart developers will pick their niche and stick to it. The people at Blizzard do not like RMT, so I would be very surprised if they were to use it in any of their games in the near future.
It will be interesting to see how future MMO's handle this issue. I think if Bioware allows RMT to affect character development, it will significantly hurt their star wars MMO.
Those that argue that it wont hurt the PvE aspect are also WRONG! People with better gear get in the group... example... I find a group have decent gear, then someone who just spent 15 bucks on thier gear comes... they pick the other guy... I dont get in... he does, because he has the money adn can quickly buy better...it hurts PvP and Pve... and if the mmo has a player driven econmy based on game items, it will warp that,,,,
IMVPO spending too much money in ingame items just proves folly and wrong values. But thats just how I feel. On the other hand, when someone has any other hobby, the rich can buy every expensive stuff, and the poor have to be content with simple things. If you are rich you can have the most exclusive golf equipment, and when you are poor... well, such is life. ( And I am not rich, mind ya, but why should MMos be different than any hobby?)
I predict in the long run EVERY MMO will have some form of RMT. Why? Because money is just too powerful to resist. Like the One Ring, heh. No company will resist the siren call at some point. I see it like the change of economy from the system of the Middle Ages to modern capitalism. In the Middle Ages, people were not free to sell their goods as they wanted, they were bound to lords and superiors, to their places and given pathways of living, set by authorities. Like the economic pathways set by game devs today. But once the idea of the free market arose, there was no "niche" left in the end. Now you may like it or not, but RMT IS the future. Fighting against it seems like fighting against weather changes to me.
IMVPO spending too much money in ingame items just proves folly and wrong values. But thats just how I feel. On the other hand, when someone has any other hobby, the rich can buy every expensive stuff, and the poor have to be content with simple things. If you are rich you can have the most exclusive golf equipment, and when you are poor... well, such is life. ( And I am not rich, mind ya, but why should MMos be different than any hobby?)
I predict in the long run EVERY MMO will have some form of RMT. Why? Because money is just too powerful to resist. Like the One Ring, heh. No company will resist the siren call at some point. I see it like the change of economy from the system of the Middle Ages to modern capitalism. In the Middle Ages, people were not free to sell their goods as they wanted, they were bound to lords and superiors, to their places and given pathways of living, set by authorities. Like the economic pathways set by game devs today. But once the idea of the free market arose, there was no "niche" left in the end. Now you may like it or not, but RMT IS the future. Fighting against it seems like fighting against weather changes to me.
Well I disgree that it is inevitable, since there is a significant audience who will not support such a game. Go read some of the comments that Bilzzard has made about RMT. They feel the exactly same way, it is not inevitable at all. Since they have been pretty astute in this market so far, you would think they have done some research to support such a view.
*shrugs* i suppose. But i woun't want on that team anyway. I prefer skilled players over looted ones anyway.
But what do i know my main MMO is City of Heroes where I'm a 60 month vent would can run half the game without any enhancments and still get begged on to join teams.
Cause i'm just that good, and people know it.
I know I have posted some replies in this thread but 1 thing that keeps hitting me and is maybe worth a thought but then again maybe not.
People that agree with RMT in games keep stating "we dont have the time to play so this is fair"sort of thing,ok fair enough..
Now what about the player's that dont have alot of time to play but also dont have the money to buy in game items?
Should we invent some sort of ingame welfare cheque's for them so they can be on a level gaming field?
I think with the upcomming release of Aion it would cater for all type's,as in crafted gear is as or nearly as good as raiding gear and pvp gear,I am a casual player and in my on-line guild we all help each other so maybe getting the items to craft gear if we cant get the raid gear will keep us enough in line with other player's,pvp gear we will earn in time...this to me seems to be a very fair option for both hard-core and the casual player......not a visa card battle or a time ingame battle.....maybe this is an alternative soloution for the future.
*shrugs* i suppose. But i woun't want on that team anyway. I prefer skilled players over looted ones anyway.
But what do i know my main MMO is City of Heroes where I'm a 60 month vent would can run half the game without any enhancments and still get begged on to join teams.
Cause i'm just that good, and people know it.
Ooo this bring up a good question, how will people know right off the bat who is skilled and who isnt? Yeha after awhile u will be able to tell... after the group is wiped lol
Ooo this bring up a good question, how will people know right off the bat who is skilled and who isnt? Yeha after awhile u will be able to tell... after the group is wiped lol
well the big "60 month vetran" badge in info screen might be a clue :P
haha ok, aslong as it says that :P
I have heard of people spending over 5,000 dollars on a free to play game and over $ 40,000 in Eve so ya they might just as well give in and add an item shop so they can fund more development on our favorite games. The economy in games are always messed up any way, you just can't see the gold farmers going it so you just figure this is the way it is suposed to be and most don't even care any how.
So people here saying that they'll never play a game with RMT in it...err name a game that deosn't have it. Of course in most games its 'illega' but that doesn't seem to stop very many people. I fail to see how it being legal or illegal effects the arguments about cheapening advancement so therefor you should just stop playing MMOs I guess.
On a more serious note, the crux of the argument is if time played is to be the core metric of player accomplishment and if so if that metric is to be displayed via gear, levels etc.
If this is true then RMTs act directly against this. But is this a good model in the first place? After all why is there inherent virtue in playing the game more? Of course one advantage is that unlike a skill based axis (like leaderboards for instance) everyone can advance on a time axis, albiet at different rates.
If you are making a game that's going top follow that axis then you really do need to limit RMT to a bare minimum via rigiourous enforcement and/or wall it off) as wow does. On the other hand, this isn't the only way to run a railroad and simply having a subscription fee does not wed you to this as your primary axis. For an example of a subscription based game that does not look at EVE.
When I spoke of EVE I was speaking of their player longivity and sub income versus the non-existant sub rate of F2P models. I thought that was obvious as I spoke of income in that particular paragraph.
Not much sense in trying to pick apart someone else's post if you do not read all of it or grasp all the concepts being laid out. :)
:) Nice ego. Did I quote your post? Don't assume I was replying to anything you said.
I predict in the long run EVERY MMO will have some form of RMT. Why? Because money is just too powerful to resist.
Thats exactly why RMT will NOT take off...no company will risk alienating their subscriber base by going RMT. RMT pisses off too many people for reasons already mentioned. If it was as big a cash cow as some people think, it would already be the standard now.
The big developers arent stupid, and know full well how the majority of the MMO player base will react to RMT. They will not risk their stable and predictable subscription model for the fly-by-night RMT crowd. At best, RMT will be in addition to the normal subscription model, not in place of it. And even then it will be limited to small stuff that doesnt affect game play. CoH and Eve are both examples of this. I dont consider them RMT because their RMT stuff does not affect gameplay. And I think most people would agree.
If that changed and you could suddenly buy quick advancament in those games through RMT, you'd see a huge backlash followed by a quick exodus of cancelled subscriptions. ...and a new non-RMT MMO arriving to fill that vacuum.
No company will resist the siren call at some point.
Sirens with STDs are much easier to resist. RMT is basically like an STD for MMOs. It will drive people away.
So people here saying that they'll never play a game with RMT in it...err name a game that deosn't have it.
Buying costume pieces hardly counts as RMT. If you think it does, I'd argue your definition is unreasonably broad.
Of course in most games its 'illega' but that doesn't seem to stop very many people.
If it is illegal, then it is not a real RMT now is it. Its cheating.
I fail to see how it being legal or illegal effects the arguments about cheapening advancement so therefor you should just stop playing MMOs I guess.
Because if it is legal, more people will do it. That seems obvious to me.
On a more serious note, the crux of the argument is if time played is to be the core metric of player accomplishment and if so if that metric is to be displayed via gear, levels etc. If this is true then RMTs act directly against this. But is this a good model in the first place?
It works for me. If you have a better model, feel free to present it.
On the other hand, this isn't the only way to run a railroad and simply having a subscription fee does not wed you to this as your primary axis. For an example of a subscription based game that does not look at EVE.
I've been playing Eve for years. And yes, character skills matter. If you have the skills to mount tech 2 weapons (for example) you are going to find it easier to get into good player corps or whatever.
Or the runner would be laughed at for trying to compete with a motor cycle ;) Seriously though, the point i'm apparently very bad at making is as long as they're following the rules people should have an option of how to enjoy their gaming experience. If implemented correctly i see RMT simply as a tool for players willing to spend money instead of time to gain the same results. Overall that might make mmo's more accessible to casual gamers like me, which is a good thing i think.
I don't know if they've been mentioned yet, but what about official expansion sets you can buy in the stores, aren't they a form of RMT too? You buy the option of raising your level cap, better equipment and/or exclusive access to quests and areas. Is that unfair cheating as well?
Richard Aihoshi's blogs drive me crazy because I can't stand "F2P" games or RMT and every one of his blogs comes across as little more than a forum troll post. How in the world is it "inevitable" that MMOs will move toward RMT. That's nothing more than a troll statement. There's no evidence at all of mainstream MMO games moving toward RMT. I do not know of any game of any significance (and by "of any significance" I don't mean whatever bubbly little anime-styled drivel you might be thinking of suggesting) on the horizon that has been confirmed as RMT, and he knows full well it'll drive people on this forum bonkers for someone claim RMT is the inevitable future.
Of course it's not a problem for anyone else -- good job coming up with the safest, most harmless-sounding example possible. Hey, how about a real example now: I decide to buy a better weapon and armor to wreak havoc on my enemies in PvP, that they must now also spend a lot of money if they want to have any chance to compete with me. Another real example: the developers realize they have to skew the difficulty of endgame raid bosses with the assumption that all of the players will have purchased high-level weapons and armor, lest the encounter be too easy for the vocal hardcore minority, resulting in guilds and raid parties only accepting players who have spent a lot of cash on top items.
Good game developers understand these issues, not to mention the nightmare RMT is for keeping a balanced in-game economy, and that's why we do not see RMT in most mainstream MMO games... and why it is in no way, no how, not even close to inevitable.
Um... this EXACTLY what RMT is. RMT stands for Real Money Transactions, and it is applied to the sale of virtual goods and services. This is one of the revenue streams that every publisher (that I am aware of) uses to monitize thier online games.
This is like aurguing that a Tarrif isnt a tax because you personally like Tarrif's but not Income Tax, and as such have declared that all taxes are bad. RMT is here today, and being used by basically everyone with virtual goods and services. You have made a stance that it is 'bad' but the reality is that if you spend money for online goods or services, you have likely paid for RMT of some sort... and you thought that it was ok.
Um... this EXACTLY what RMT is. RMT stands for Real Money Transactions
By that definition, EVERYTHING is RMT unless it's free. All subscription MMOs are therefore RMT since you pay money to play the game every month?
Gimme a break.
ok then lets go though some key PvE secnarios then.
RTMer can not trade or sell items, does not team with you:
Effect on you? None
RTMer can not trade or sell items, does team with you:
Effect on you? Better team?
RTMer can trade or sell items:
Effect on you? The same item he bought RTM you can grind for and buy at AH. Even Play.
Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here, but my situation would be more like this:
Example 1: (Item Mall)
Company adds a powerful weapon, exclusively available via the Item Mall.
It becomes quickly regarded as a "must have" weapon.
Elitists will refuse to group with anyone who doesn't have it because it "slows their xp/hr"
Unfortunately, you can't afford it because you have a limited budget already and that money goes towards xp potions just so you can keep up with everyone else and not get left behind.
You get left behind anyway, because now that you can't buy that new uber weapon, you're shunned from parties and considered a "n00b".
Example 2: (Non Item Mall)
Company adds a powerful weapon to the game
There's a quest line with a particularly tough boss battle at the end required to obtain it
Optionally, the sword can be sold on the Auction House, or via private shop.
A player has the option to either complete the quest and obtain it, or, they can save the money and buy it as the game itself provides the means to do so either way.
The first example is not a level playing field for all players.
The second example is.
Good post CayneJobb. Thats pretty much what I wanted to say as well.
Let me try another example - because I come from Pen and Paper rpgs and saw something similar:
Among the RPG conventions there is type of persistant RPG where you roll up a character and play in different scenarios from convention to convention - in many ways it's an "offline MMRPG". All these games have strict creation rules and require various levels of documentation to insure accuracy/honesty. Players are allowed to trade items etc with documentation.
Somewheres along the way, some one had the idea of having players donate items (that already existed in game) and auctioning them off for real world cash in a charity auction. Sounds good right? The charity benefits and nothing new enters the game.
So then, some bright coordinator gets the idea of *creating* brand new items, rares, specialized things etc specifically *for* these auctions. Now it turns into a bidding war to be the one mage who has that rare flying cat familar or the flaming sword of doom.
At least that was still money going to charities....that last example is what RMT leads to and why it is bad. The entire game becomes a bidding war for shiny toys. Yeah sure people engage in that sort of behavior in other hobbies in the real world too - but there are a plethora of insulting names for them and most people don't keep associating with them.
Or perhaps think of it this way, if you ever played a PnP rpg; would you play with a DM who said: okay you all start with XX, but the more money you slip me before the game, the more perks I will give your character? I sure wouldn't, I wouldn't play under that DM and I wouldn't play with any player who would pay.
Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here, but my situation would be more like this:
Example 1: (Item Mall)
Company adds a powerful weapon, exclusively available via the Item Mall.
It becomes quickly regarded as a "must have" weapon.
Elitists will refuse to group with anyone who doesn't have it because it "slows their xp/hr"
Unfortunately, you can't afford it because you have a limited budget already and that money goes towards xp potions just so you can keep up with everyone else and not get left behind.
You get left behind anyway, because now that you can't buy that new uber weapon, you're shunned from parties and considered a "n00b".
and if their going to turn down the 5 year vet over the 3 month noob wit hthe Sword Of Doom, i say good riddence. Let the team die, over and over.
Its inevitable that some companies think they are failing or not advancing due to their distribution methods. That they think giving the product away and then selling fluff inside the product for real case will get them back "in the game". Its inevitable because they already put the business model "of the future" out there in interviews at least a year ago.
What is also inevitable is that their continued failure to understand why they are having these issues... will only get worse after they do this.
This is what SOE wants to do...
You can find interviews all over the place. Smedley said that he think the subscriptionless model is the one of the future with microtransactions. He also has made reference to how many millions of people use the play station online services... So they obviously have moved the way of hybrid games (ps3/pc) because they think they can get their WoW subscriber base that way. What is 300,000 subs at 15 bux a month... if you can get 3 to 5 million kids who get to spend even just 5 bux a month.... on "fluff".
That's what I get from their interviews. The "vision" isn't about trying to retain some set spending per person ratio... its about selling a smaller amount to a massive player base and having more income as a result.. then they would ever have in the subscription model.
At least I think that's how they must look at it.
For the average MMO player... at least me (I think I'm average). What I see in EQ2 or if I look at SWG (don't play anymore). Is they add items to Station Exchange all the time... or LON... that you pretty much buy. Some of the SWG items you'd only have a chance at by buying LON decks (they don't have station cash there). These same items in the game prior to LON or Station Cash would have been crafter items.
So they take things other players should be making... and then let you buy them for cash. In other words you are paying for content that used to be included.... or part of an expansion at least.
I don't have any issue if they had stuck to selling XP pots... heck even dyes... crap like that. I don't care if someone else can level faster.. it doesn't affect me. As a crafter it pisses me off in epic ways... when instead of a new recipe.. they make that new item a cash purchase.
So my slant is mostly about SOE... but the way the article is.. this is what comes to mind. EA has had RMT for years and years and years... in UO... Well SOE just added some of it... name change.. gender change (potions in EQ2.. services in UO).
The only thing SOE hasn't added yet that EA has in UO is... advanced character templates (I'm sure that would go over well).
If RMT is inevitable to this entire market...
Then I would also say its inevitable that this market will also..... end. (aka it becomes mostly an online console thing like the vision I think soe has... where they hope those 20 million people will spend a few dollars a month). As opposed to massive online computer games... that people actually pay to play... rather than play to pay.
Originally posted by S1nn3r
I dont post here often but i had to pick up on this pretty silly comment. Did you just say Korea was a third world country ? (being its one of the largest markets as you say for RMT to be run in)
They just fired a nuke, americas gunna send em back to the stone age, theyll be a 4th world country in a few weeks..
You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further. If you do not get it by now, continue to "play" your game with your credit card. I find it illogical to play a GAME that I do not have time for nor enjoy so I pay for items instead of playing it myself. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If I felt I didn't have enough time to play a game I would quit, it's very simple. I would go to something I had time to you know actually PLAY considering that is why you buy games.
I understand your point pretty well. You like to play games that encourage you to earn your character's prestige, and you feel that if people don't do that they're cheating themselves. I think you're just saying I can't understand and that you're not going to explain it further because you really can't extrapolate on a subject you haven't even made clear in the first place.
All you've been doing is saying "I am having FUN doing it my WAY and I don't SEE how you're having FUN, SO you're a moron and I SHALL scorn YOU with half-assed SARCASM." When anyone offers a counter-point, you just treat them like a moron because they don't agree with you and repeat the same message in so many words. I also think it's kind of strange how you assume I play micro games even though I haven't said as much and although I have tried them, I don't use the item malls and I'm not really playing one now. My fave games so far have been WoW, Darkfall, and Warhammer Online.
All I'm saying is...
Sorry, I just lost interest in this topic. Defending RMT is like yelling at people from on top of a pile of crap and wondering why everyone thinks you smell.
I will make it simple for you. Killing a dragon for a sword is playing a game. Buying a sword with your credit card isn't playing a game it is buying a digital sword. That is my point. Why pay for a game when you don't want to play it.
Or the runner would be laughed at for trying to compete with a motor cycle ;) Seriously though, the point i'm apparently very bad at making is as long as they're following the rules people should have an option of how to enjoy their gaming experience. If implemented correctly i see RMT simply as a tool for players willing to spend money instead of time to gain the same results. Overall that might make mmo's more accessible to casual gamers like me, which is a good thing i think.
I don't know if they've been mentioned yet, but what about official expansion sets you can buy in the stores, aren't they a form of RMT too? You buy the option of raising your level cap, better equipment and/or exclusive access to quests and areas. Is that unfair cheating as well?
Accessible? At that point you are not even playing the game just buying stuff with your credit card? Buying stuff with a credit card does not make a fun game. I would rather go somewhere else and play what I had time for. And no, buying an expansion isn't even in the same ball park .. you are buying an expansion to the game where you can PLAY more. Most people purchase video games because they want to play them, weird concept. Most do not buy games and then find out where they can buy all the items, characters, etc so they can avoid playing the game they bought. That would be illogical.
Something that stood out to me in the article was the risk of purchasing virtual items, currency or characters from third parties. The greatest risk was the possible failure to deliver, leaving the consumer with little recourse.
This doesn't seem all that different from some of the policies we see offered by MMO publishers themselves. Some will sell you an item and then claim the right to diminish it's value or even eliminate it outright anytime they see fit. Just like third parties, the user agreements in these games leave the consumer with little recourse. By agreeing to the EULA you're told that you've waived many of your consumer rights should there be any disagreement between the publisher and you. That's just ugly to me. I don't want to purchase virtual items for an MMO, only to have those items nerfed or deleted shortly thereafter, with little if any warning, and no compensation for the money I just paid. Not all publishers are like this, but some most certainly are.
At the moment I'm beta testing a game with RMT. What I like about this game's business model is that you licence the use of virtual items for a specific time period. If the publisher reduces the value of the item, or it becomes unavailable for some reason, you can cancel your licence and receive a refund for the time remaining on it. The publisher keeps the money for the time you've already used of course. I think this model of RMT is much, much more user friendly.
I've also seen RMT used for items that create a two tier system of players withing the MMO: the "haves" and the "have nots." The haves can kick the crap out of the have nots in PvP, and they're much more valuable as group members in PvE. Saying that RMT is an option under these circumstances is very misleading. It's more of a necessity, and should be marketted as such.
This is especially objectionable in subscription based games. Some players pay to play an MMO, but with the introduction of performance enhancing RMT gear, they have a hard time competing, and their subscription money is not the only fee they're going to have to pay to be successful.
What's worse is that some games used to include loot as part of the subscription fee, but it is now only available via RMT. So, players are paying the same subscription they always did (or more), but they are no longer receiving the same value.
Even worse than that is the example of one game that introduced performance enhancing loot via a type of RMT lottery system. The loot used to be added as part of the subscription, but now people have to pay an online store real cash for merely an opportunity to get certain items. Most often they end up with no item, or an item they didn't want.
Many people have in fact left this game because of this issue, according to the forums. However, those that remain are now shelling out hundreds of dollars in some cases to get the loot they feel they must have.
As I've said though, not all publishers take this dark and ugly approach to RMT. The game I'm beta testing is one example. Another might be City of Heroes, a game I played for a few years. When NCsoft introduced RMT items in that game, they did not take the place of content updates. The content kept coming. The RMT items added, more than anything, style and additional customization to the game in the form of special looking modes of transportation, and thematic costumes. The transportation (light surfboard) didn't give you an edge over any other player, but it looked cool as hell. To see one was to want one, but if you couldn't afford it for some reason, your ability to play the game successfully was not diminished.
Another thing they did was bundle costumes with emotes and a super power that once again did not give you a competitive advantage. This was very clever in my view. They introduced something called a cyborg pack. You got robotic costume options, a robot dance emote, and the ability to self-destruct and take out much of what was around you. This did you no good whatsoever in PvP because you killed yourself. That's a loss. You might take someone with you, in which case I suppose it would be a draw. In PvE, you might be useful, but you'd have to be willing to sacrifice yourself. I suppose it gave you a chance to be something of a sacrificial hero. Could others blow up everything around them though, without the cyborg pack? Yup, there were a ton of power options that you could earn through game play that would do the same thing, without the self-destruction aspect.
Did a lot of people buy this pack? From what I saw, yes. The costume options were cool, the dance was fun, and blowing yourself up was funny as hell and occasionally even useful.
If RMT becomes more and more a part of MMOs, I'd simply like to see it done in a user friendly way. If people purchase an item, give them a licence to use it for a specific period of time. If the item loses its value give them the option to cancel the licence for a partial refund. Don't charge people a subscription fee and then reduce the content that they are paying for. Don't charge people a sub fee but secretly make it necessary for them to buy additional RMT items just to be useful. If you offer RMT items, let people get what they paying for; for goodness sake don't make them play some kind of lottery with real cash.
RMT can be done well, or it can be done poorly. If it's done well, I think it can add options to a game without hurting the content or the community. I hope that MMO companies take the high road. Some have and some have not. I guess we'll see how things play out. Meanwhile, I strongly encourage people to read the EULA with RMT based games. Some of these games are very user friendly. Others are setting you up for a bad ride.
Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here, but my situation would be more like this:
Example 1: (Item Mall)
Company adds a powerful weapon, exclusively available via the Item Mall.
It becomes quickly regarded as a "must have" weapon.
Elitists will refuse to group with anyone who doesn't have it because it "slows their xp/hr"
Unfortunately, you can't afford it because you have a limited budget already and that money goes towards xp potions just so you can keep up with everyone else and not get left behind.
You get left behind anyway, because now that you can't buy that new uber weapon, you're shunned from parties and considered a "n00b".
and if their going to turn down the 5 year vet over the 3 month noob wit hthe Sword Of Doom, i say good riddence. Let the team die, over and over.
Sounds great in theory and perhaps you would think that way. However, it would not be okay or feasible for everyone - particularly the people unable to effectively make progress because they can't freely pull out their Visa card when "Must Have Weapon #5432663" is introduced and are shunned from parties as a "gimped player" - and that's where the problem lies.
Similar things happen in MMOs without item malls, and this is how I can say confidently that it would (and does) happen in an item mall game. The difference is that in a MMO without the item mall, a player without that item has the ability to obtain it by actually playing the game, as it should be.
The whole argument against RMT that states "why don't you want to play the game?" is not valid. People who are making RMTs obviously DO want to play the game. They just want to play a different part of it. A lot of RMT is people substituting money for repetitve play. Of course just because someone wants something doesn't me they should get it.
The whole argument against RMT that states "why don't you want to play the game?" is not valid. People who are making RMTs obviously DO want to play the game. They just want to play a different part of it.
Great...I want to play in God mode. So if I pay enough money to the MMO company, can I be a god in the game? If not, why do you want to ruin my fun?
I dont have to the time to grind, but im poor in real life too....why cant i just get everything free...? I want to play the game like everyone else... why are you stopping me from playing how I want to play...and get everything I want...whenever I want
That is like saying:
I dont buy stuff online, I just use Ebay.
RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.
The only difference is that if you spend money looking red, instead of looking green, that does not really affect me. If you spend your money having twice as much HP, making you twice as hard to kill, that does affect me.
With that perspective in mind, Blizzard does not have RMT. Their in-game items that you can obtain by purchasing trade cards are eye-candy nothing more. It wont make you any more powerful or competitive then I am, unless you consider fashion in WoW to be a form of competition.
Another scenario:
RMT bought item Z
I cannot afford to buy Z, so I must grind X number of hours before I am able to obtain that item Z. By the time I manage to get that item Z, RMTer grinded those same X number of hours as well and he is with yet another item Z. So at the end, while I have 1 item Z, he has 2. Still even play?
I will never pay a subscription and pay for RMT in games, its one or the other I do not like mixed business models it just shows greed.
Good post, ArcAngel3. I agree that RMT is OK if it's for items that are only cosmetic, such as the costume options available for CoX. BUT I'd be really nervous if a new game comes out with these types of RMT options available out of the box. Maybe it's only costumes today, but what about in a year from now, especially if the game starts hurting a bit financially. Once an RMT mall is in place, it would take a very well disciplined developer to keep from eventually putting up some godly weapons and gear.
This is a really good point that I hadn't thought of. I played WoW for a long time, and before there were any expansions, before WoW jumped the shark, I completed the challenging quest-line to obtain a Benediction staff for my priest. This was an awesome staff at the time, and I felt a great sense of accomplishment having obtained it. Of course, once the first expansion came out, Benediction was immediately obsolete. Even though my staff which used to be the best in the game was now basically worthless, I still remembered enjoying the questline to obtain it and the sense of accomplishment I had, and I kept the old staff in my bank as a memento. If instead I had simply paid $30 for the thing, I'd be left feeling sour that my $30 investment was reduced to complete worthlessness, and I'd have had no fond memories to go with it.
The only difference is that if you spend money looking red, instead of looking green, that does not really affect me. If you spend your money having twice as much HP, making you twice as hard to kill, that does affect me.
With that perspective in mind, Blizzard does not have RMT. Their in-game items that you can obtain by purchasing trade cards are eye-candy nothing more. It wont make you any more powerful or competitive then I am, unless you consider fashion in WoW to be a form of competition.
Actually it does affect all players. Those cosmetics items that are now in the item shop would have been in the game for everyone if the item shop did not exist. Anyway why play games if you want to buy the items. That isn't playing that is buying things with your credit card. Games are meant to be played for fun.
Yeah I agree. As I have said many times before i'm cool as long as they are just cosmetic but if items shops get to the point where I can log on and buy some "Godly Plate of the Whale" then I would probably be so pissed i would quit MMOs for good. I agree with some of what Qombi (sp?) has to say. Although in its current main stream glory RMT isnt really a bad thing but its not a good thing either. Like I said I dont mind it as long as its just cosmetic, as soon as it goes beyond that for the game i'm playing i'm going to start a crusade to kick some ass.
Same here.
I hate 'RMT' with a passion, but what exactly is it that I dislike. Well firstly it is only what I call 'ingame RMT', so I have no problem with people paying for a server transfer, character rename or anything else that I class as taking place outside the gameworld. However, the second it affects the gameworld itself then I hate it. This includeds things such as the recent addition of the station cash store in EQ2 for example. This is the perfect definition of RMT done badly because they are asking for customers to pay a monthly sub, and then putting items on a store that you have to pay for ontop of the sub.
The other thing is that as a Western MMO player there is one simple truth that has prevailed across all the MMO's I've tried, it is a simple equation which goes as follows:
F2P = RMT = MicroTransaction = Asian MMO = CRAP!
This is just my opinion, but I've been paying MMO's for years now, I've tried F2P, games with RMT, Asian Grinders etc and I have yet to find one single game that doesn't meet the criteria of the equation. Ok, so maybe it's just me and I'm turning into a grumpy old gamer. But I work in IT in the UK so I have exposure to a lot of other fellow 'geeks', most of whom play various MMO's, and when asked about it they almost all have the same response when asked about 'RMT', they hate it and they equate it with rubbish games usually of Asian origin.
So no, I don't think it is inevitable, at least I hope not, but if companies want to start introducting 'ingame RMT' to the Western audience then I think they have to understand that there are a large number of people who will just instantly walk away from their game, there is also another section that will be hugely suspicous of the game and maybe it is up to the games companies themselves to justify the RMT model to a suspicous customer base. A good start would be to stop trying to rip of customers as SOE seem to be doing currently where they seem to be trying to adopt the 'P2P+Cash Shop' RMT model which is just a joke. If you want ingame RMT then the game has to be F2P (of course I won't be playing it even for free
)
Me, I'm too set in my ways, it's sub based with no 'ingame RMT' all the way for me, and mainly because nobody has ever yet managed to convince me of any benefit whatsoever to having a game with 'cash shops' etc. But I still believe that before anyone can witter on about whether RMT is enevitable or not, we need a definition first.
what about the big poit my point that i di a few pages back, the one about Item shot non tradable vs tradable
Great point about only in game RMT. I agree with you, great post. I too do not mind if out of game RMT happens such as character transfers etc.
what about the big poit my point that i di a few pages back, the one about Item shot non tradable vs tradable
Items come from playing a game. If I find getting items in a game unfun to the point where I would rather buy them then the game is unfun and I will quit playing. Buying items of any kind is not game play, that is swiping your credit card. If that is what you are doing then it is time to take a step back and realize these are games that are meant to be played .. not credit card swiping for items.
Same here.
Then would you both mind if they doubled the monthly sub? Or is that greed as well?
The only way it shows greed is if their expenses are so low and their profits are so high that they don't "need" to add different revenue streams but choose to anyways.
And then again, if they are a publiclly traded company then they have to maximize their profits for their stockholders. I'm sure both of you would be a bit miffed if your retirement funds or 401k's or whatever you have languished and didn't make any profit because the companies in your portfolio did just enough to stay afloat, keep people employed and invest a little in the prodcut and future developement.
Over the course of years you would then wonder why you don't have enough to retire and what were the companies doing with your money.
I have no problem with mixing them. But if it's the mixing of revenue types that you don't like then have them just raise the monthly fees (doesn't seem to have been raised by much in the last 5 years or so) until they can cover all costs and make the profit that they want/need.
That works for me.
Name one great "F2P" MMO which have the same quality as any average subscription based MMO.
The quality of these RMT based games are terrible, you will notice tons and tons of timesinks and virtual roadblocks which all leads you to buy really expensive stuff from some item shop, most of these games also lacks support and content updates because the devs have already started on their next project.
Sadly this seems to be where things are heading, SOE have started with their mixed RMT and subscriptions which are even more bad and the level of diffculty have started to drop below easy - I have no idea what they are up too but somehow they think kids have alot of money or something.. dunno.
In EVE, you can loose your 40.000$ within a heartbeat, because it's a full-loot mmo. In free to play-crap, you can't. If you "buy" ingame currency for 40.000$ in EVE, thousands of players can buy gametime with their ingame currency. The price for ingame-time <> ingame currency will fall, because it is an open market.
If you fly epic ships worth thousands of dollars in EVE, of course you have an advantage. But you better have a plan and a clue, otherwise you are toast and make your opponents very happy, who loot your ship. Money balances itself.
If you buy scrolls, vials, or other "premium items" in games like Atlantica, you will dominate in PvP and PvE, but you risk nothing. It's crap. It's like taking part in a tournament, in which the player wins, who gave the referee the most money.
Then would you both mind if they doubled the monthly sub? Or is that greed as well?
The only way it shows greed is if their expenses are so low and their profits are so high that they don't "need" to add different revenue streams but choose to anyways.
And then again, if they are a publiclly traded company then they have to maximize their profits for their stockholders. I'm sure both of you would be a bit miffed if your retirement funds or 401k's or whatever you have languished and didn't make any profit because the companies in your portfolio did just enough to stay afloat, keep people employed and invest a little in the prodcut and future developement.
Over the course of years you would then wonder why you don't have enough to retire and what were the companies doing with your money.
I have no problem with mixing them. But if it's the mixing of revenue types that you don't like then have them just raise the monthly fees (doesn't seem to have been raised by much in the last 5 years or so) until they can cover all costs and make the profit that they want/need.
That works for me.
Well, if a company decides just to double the monthly fee after the release once they got a customer base, yeah, that's greed or just stupidity if they want to keep any subs. If a new MMO decides to have a high starting fee then it's up to us customers to decide if we want to pay for this of choose some other game.
I agree that the subs havent changed really for the last 5-10 years but let's not forget it's cheaper to reach out to millions of customers than when EQ1 started. Hardware and the tools to maintain a MMO have are far more refined these days than 10 years ago.
The problem nowadays is that many MMO's try too hard, they hire tons of developers and they make something really BIG and of course expensive for several years without any income whatsoever.
I'll just throw my own 2c into this. As others have stated, RMT's devalue the subsciption fee which I believe to be detremental to the economy and longevity of any MMO that is not designed from the ground up to incorporate such transactions.
Take WoW for example since it is probably one of the most familiar. The base monthly fee allows people to participate equally in any and all content available. Take a hardcore gamer and let that person strive toward and accomplish a goal of getting uber item A. Now allow an RMT to give that same item to someone else and suddenly the subscription fee that the hardcore player paid drastically becomes undervalued. The time and effort put into the achievement is completely taken away. Granted, this may just be the cost of a mount, but it still lowers the value of the monthly fee of any and all who have paid it and spent the time to farm the money or item itself.
Your statement is true, but only in the area where items that can be acquired in game are purchasable through an RMT.
If, however, RMT items are only available through RMT, and are not comparable to items you can acquire in-game (in terms of weapons/armor/items that give benefits. Different colored/styled mounts and hair styles have little bearing on progression), the issue you describe is non-existant.
At this point in time, many "services" (hair color/style change, mounts, or name changes) are really just extras that get injected into the game without much effect.
Any game that offers Weapons/Armor/Items through RMT is just adding more headaches to the current problem that exists between crafted gear vs dungeon gear...
Why would anyone try to balance Crafted Gear vs Dungeon Gear vs Payed-For Gear?
Then would you both mind if they doubled the monthly sub? Or is that greed as well?
The only way it shows greed is if their expenses are so low and their profits are so high that they don't "need" to add different revenue streams but choose to anyways.
And then again, if they are a publiclly traded company then they have to maximize their profits for their stockholders. I'm sure both of you would be a bit miffed if your retirement funds or 401k's or whatever you have languished and didn't make any profit because the companies in your portfolio did just enough to stay afloat, keep people employed and invest a little in the prodcut and future developement.
Over the course of years you would then wonder why you don't have enough to retire and what were the companies doing with your money.
I have no problem with mixing them. But if it's the mixing of revenue types that you don't like then have them just raise the monthly fees (doesn't seem to have been raised by much in the last 5 years or so) until they can cover all costs and make the profit that they want/need.
That works for me.
Well, if a company decides just to double the monthly fee after the release once they got a customer base, yeah, that's greed or just stupidity if they want to keep any subs. If a new MMO decides to have a high starting fee then it's up to us customers to decide if we want to pay for this of choose some other game.
I agree that the subs havent changed really for the last 5-10 years but let's not forget it's cheaper to reach out to millions of customers than when EQ1 started. Hardware and the tools to maintain a MMO have are far more refined these days than 10 years ago.
The problem nowadays is that many MMO's try too hard, they hire tons of developers and they make something really BIG and of course expensive for several years without any income whatsoever.
Hardware might be cheaper ( I can't verify that but I'll take you word for it for the sake of the discussion) but what about development time, salaries and all the fringe that goes along with that, office space, insurance, retirement accounts/matching, the cost of running a business the costs of actual development?
It seems to me that the costs of developing these games have gone up.
As far as raising the price, well, raising it the month after launch or even doubling it would be suicide. But what about "cost of living" raises?
I mean, many of us, as a matter of course during our employment, get some sort of cost of living raise each year. Costs to develop and maintain the business/game (not to mention research and development for the company's future pipeline) surely go up each year yet short of hoping for new subscribers the cost to us does not go up. Movies have certainly gone up in 5 years.
I'm not a game developer so I can't speak to the "try too hard" statement. I imagine they do waste a lot of money. But then again, it seems that a good many people in the industry are growing older and want more adult lives in that they don't want to wake up one day, realize that they are retirement age and realize that they have been working for peanuts for "the love of the game".
So companies have to be more like companies and offer some sort of future if not at least a decent salary and benefits. They aren't John Carmack and John Romero in a basement anymore. And though it probably is very possible to be a john carmack/john romero and make a game, will enough people be interested in it due to a flooded market?
Every morning when I wake up I go to gamespy. Have been doing it for a long time. As a point of note I think the site has gone downhill considerably but that is another discussion. I check out what is new and what is coming out or in development. And I have come to the conclusion that there is just a lot of "stuff" being made and I'm not sure if people really care.
So it's going to be hard to wade through all of these games in order to find a gem in the rough. A small game company has a lot against it. Of course, in some ways the internet helps but how does one really find your game in a sea of other games.
And gamers have become a lot more fickle and in some cases spoiled. Not to say that they HAVE to subscribe to a game they hate but it's way to easy to just flit from one game to another. That doesn't really bode well for a game company making a new mmo. Quite frankly as an investor, unless I truly believed in the project, I would not invest in any mmo company as it's just too riskly. I'm surprised that game companies even try. However, the lure of the WoW money might seem to be very seductive.
Either the game industry is just filled with a lot of incompetant people or making/developing a game is really very hard.
In which case a company that wants to remain a company is going to try to maximize its revenue and minimize loss.
So sure, they are trying to make something big but given what I've seen on this site with small indy games, there doesn't seem to be a lot of excitment about games that look like diablo or UO even if it might have unique game play.
But sure, you might get a small group making an indy game that might not take a lot or look like a lot but might get enough players to run it for a while. But eventually all those employees are going to want to make a better living and have more job security and at the very least might want to grow the company. At most they might want to go to a larger company that doesn't take a lot of risks but that is going to be around for a while and offer a better employment opportunity.
So though big companies might be safe and unimaginative they do offer quite a bit for someone who wants to make a living in game development. Therefore it makes sense that they are going to look for ways to bring in more money. Since we know people are willing to spend their own money (and a lot of money) on the secondary market they are going to want to enter their own stuff.
I will never play a RMT. So unfair for people who don't have disposable income or choose not to spend hundred of dollars in a game.
Then would you both mind if they doubled the monthly sub? Or is that greed as well?
The only way it shows greed is if their expenses are so low and their profits are so high that they don't "need" to add different revenue streams but choose to anyways.
And then again, if they are a publiclly traded company then they have to maximize their profits for their stockholders. I'm sure both of you would be a bit miffed if your retirement funds or 401k's or whatever you have languished and didn't make any profit because the companies in your portfolio did just enough to stay afloat, keep people employed and invest a little in the prodcut and future developement.
Over the course of years you would then wonder why you don't have enough to retire and what were the companies doing with your money.
I have no problem with mixing them. But if it's the mixing of revenue types that you don't like then have them just raise the monthly fees (doesn't seem to have been raised by much in the last 5 years or so) until they can cover all costs and make the profit that they want/need.
That works for me.
Well, if a company decides just to double the monthly fee after the release once they got a customer base, yeah, that's greed or just stupidity if they want to keep any subs. If a new MMO decides to have a high starting fee then it's up to us customers to decide if we want to pay for this of choose some other game.
I agree that the subs havent changed really for the last 5-10 years but let's not forget it's cheaper to reach out to millions of customers than when EQ1 started. Hardware and the tools to maintain a MMO have are far more refined these days than 10 years ago.
The problem nowadays is that many MMO's try too hard, they hire tons of developers and they make something really BIG and of course expensive for several years without any income whatsoever.
Increasing the sub fee might be greed, or it might just be necessary to keep a game running. I suppose it would depend on the size of the increase. If people are given plenty of warning in advance of an increase though, they could at least make an informed decision about continuing to subscribe. This assumes they haven't paid for a year in advance or something though.
What I dislike about some RMT models is their deceptive, manipulative nature. For example, telling kids that they can be a pet trainer in a free to play game, but then ensuring that they can't actually own a pet unless they buy one at the RMT shop. That's manipulative and deceptive imo. Can you really be a pet trainer for free without any pets? Of course not. The kids are getting manipulated to buy pets. It's more honest to say, "hey kids for 5 bucks a month you can play this game and one of the things you can do is train pets, which are of course included in the subscription fee."
Also, in RMT games, they can give you gameplay options for earning gear that take you literally years to make any meaningful progress. They will then of course give you the option to purchase the gear immediately from the RMT shop. Can you really play the game without using the item shop? On paper, yes; in reality, no. You'll be the only schmuk harvesting god knows what for god knows how long just to useful in any team situation or competitive in PvP. You're manipulated into using the item shop.
Then there's the example of offering performance enhancing buffs or items via some kind of RMT lottery. People are doing this right now unfortunately, shelling out real cash just for a random chance of getting a particular item, and they don't even really know what their chance of winning is.
RMT can be very deceptive, and very manipulative. People can get soaked for big money and get very little if any entertainment value in the process. If that's what MMO gaming is coming to, it's really just ugly.
That's why I prefer subscription based games like WoW, or if there is any RMT, it is for non-essential cosmetic options; like purchasing a pin-stripe package for a new car. Some RMT is like that. Others sell you a car, but then charge you extra for an engine, or maybe even just the random chance of getting an engine. It's rather sick I think. Ever see that Spiderman film where a little kid sells J. Jonah Jameson a camera, but then charges him extra for film? Greedy little kid, and some MMO publisher seem to display the same kind of behaviour. I avoid them, and I hope they don't become the driving force in the industry.
Your statement is true, but only in the area where items that can be acquired in game are purchasable through an RMT.
If, however, RMT items are only available through RMT, and are not comparable to items you can acquire in-game (in terms of weapons/armor/items that give benefits. Different colored/styled mounts and hair styles have little bearing on progression), the issue you describe is non-existant.
At this point in time, many "services" (hair color/style change, mounts, or name changes) are really just extras that get injected into the game without much effect.
Any game that offers Weapons/Armor/Items through RMT is just adding more headaches to the current problem that exists between crafted gear vs dungeon gear...
Why would anyone try to balance Crafted Gear vs Dungeon Gear vs Payed-For Gear?
Still devalues the subscription fee that I pay. Let's use WoW for the example since that is what was started with. WoW right now is subcription based. WoW regularly adds free content such as seasonal events, dungeons, etc. If WoW adds an RMT, now we have resources being taken away from the original model of giving out content included with the sub price. Now they may still give some out but not as much as it would have been because some is being sold to you via real cash.
Not to mention I will not play a game that sells item for cash because that just ruins the game for me. I buy games to play them not swipe my credit card to obtain items. The item isn't what I am ultimately after. Obtaining the item is what the game is about and you will never get the same satisfaction having the item unless you did so.
Actually if you think about these companies are cheating you with RMT and you are letting them get away with it. Think about it for a moment. What makes a video game a video game? Content. You judge a video game on whether or not the content is fun. Now would you not feel cheated if you purchased this new game/expansion at the store and got home there wasn't any game to it, no content. What it was was just some digital items. With RMT that is exactly what you are allowing game companies to do. Sell you video game without the actually video game. You are not getting the game experience you are only getting the end result the item. Getting an item via a credit card does not make a game. The game is the content.
If they want me to purchase video game content, I best be getting some game. If they need extra money they need to sell little small booster packs of small chunks of content that RESULTS in getting the items be it cosmetic etc. I am not interested in swiping my card for some digital item, I want the experience of getting that item. They really should be ashamed to sell items without any game to it. That is some poor gameplay and isn't worth your time.
Your statement is true, but only in the area where items that can be acquired in game are purchasable through an RMT.
If, however, RMT items are only available through RMT, and are not comparable to items you can acquire in-game (in terms of weapons/armor/items that give benefits. Different colored/styled mounts and hair styles have little bearing on progression), the issue you describe is non-existant.
At this point in time, many "services" (hair color/style change, mounts, or name changes) are really just extras that get injected into the game without much effect.
Any game that offers Weapons/Armor/Items through RMT is just adding more headaches to the current problem that exists between crafted gear vs dungeon gear...
Why would anyone try to balance Crafted Gear vs Dungeon Gear vs Payed-For Gear?
Yea but thats not true either mate, items that arent available in-game, only through shop can be twice as detrimental.. RF Online, monthly subscription, put in 18months to get to lvl 50, full stats, +5 armour, +225 dodge, and a +5 int hora spear.. ok cool, im a badass possibly spent 6 months farming damn callies to get 2.5 billion dalant so i can buy 50 int hora spears and armour and more upgrade gems and talics than i can fit in 5 bags just to get my gear up to the highest.. 1 month later RMT Shop.. i say to myself "F*ck there goes the neighbourhood, good call no.3 Codemasters!!" Not to be left behind, i goes browsing thru the shop and hey whats this talic upgrader thingy? bang any noob can pay like 2 quid for a +6 100% success upgrader.. so now for £2 you can get what i just spent 18 months and 2.5 billiion ingame currency on.. the game then went free to play cus everyone quit. F*CK YOU CM!. If Aion goes the same way im getting a outdoor hobby.
Yea but thats not true either mate, items that arent available in-game, only through shop can be twice as detrimental.. RF Online, monthly subscription, put in 18months to get to lvl 50, full stats, +5 armour, +225 dodge, and a +5 int hora spear.. ok cool, im a badass possibly spent 6 months farming damn callies to get 2.5 billion dalant so i can buy 50 int hora spears and armour and more upgrade gems and talics than i can fit in 5 bags just to get my gear up to the highest.. 1 month later RMT Shop.. i say to myself "F*ck there goes the neighbourhood, good call no.3 Codemasters!!" Not to be left behind, i goes browsing thru the shop and hey whats this talic upgrader thingy? bang any noob can pay like 2 quid for a +6 100% success upgrader.. so now for £2 you can get what i just spent 18 months and 2.5 billiion ingame currency on.. the game then went free to play cus everyone quit. F*CK YOU CM!. If Aion goes the same way im getting a outdoor hobby.
I think a lot of MMO gamers feel this way. I find myself playing NON-virtual trading card games with friends more now because I'm getting sick of MMO companies treating gamers like dumb sheep that exist for the sole purpose of being sheered via RMT.
I'm beta testing two games at the moment that don't treat players this way, so there's some hope for good gaming in the future, but right now, the RMT greed is a real pain in the ass.
It's like some companies have said, "well we can't develop anything as successful as WoW, so how can we bleed the few suckers we've got playing our games dry?" My thinking is, if you can't make a polished, entertaining game with a fair business model, get out of the MMO industry. Open up a used car lot, or a telemarketting company. You've missed your calling.
Hi, well, I think RMT is inevitable, the fact is that companies that want to succeed in the long run have to listen to their customers hence the players, and in a way is technically very easy to implement , in F2P games like PWI you can setup a shop to sell items to other players for gamemoney, so the deal is to make it more Ebay-ized, commisions on transactions (the way Online Poker works) gets money to the game companies, then in a PayPal-like system the buyer pays and the seller gets the money; the problems arrises from the policies to implement, since many core-players will not like being beaten by a casual gamer just because his/her wallet is bigger; other bigger problems might arise from the taxes point of view, since a commercial transaction that can be traced is expected to pay taxes, and many players reside outside the companys country the red tape will get in the way.
On the subject of game policies for example there could be bonuses for those who spend more time online based on REAL reputation thru social interaction not quests, etc.
The road ahead is still long enough to make a lot of experiments for what could or could not be successful in a MMO
It all depends on how it's implemented for an individual game. I doubt most people will pay more than $15/month in items if they can go play a sub game and not worry about being nickle-and-dimed. And I'm pretty certain a very small number of people will go for both subs and RMT as many others have mentioned. Especially in the current economy, people are shoring up against a-la-cart type business.
i totally agree with the author. wow is the best example .never real balance .once paladins were loosers .they were made heroes a year after. i dont actually see why people even play those games!!! f2p are great .perfect online is the best example .i only think they should add western union to their tally.and for the last i dont respond to inflame posts .wow enthuisiats will not be replied by me .as this post is for the topic .u can fight me somewhere else.
RMTs are ok for games without depth mainly for players who don't have enough time to play a week. Real world money usually destroys an economy though for more in depth MMORPGs. it's a big problem for UO pre-trammel fans such as myself. But then again every game out there currently is just another WoW clone so whatever. Darkfall and Mortal Online are the only 2 that came close to doing it right, but they are still fail, so after 10 years here I am still waiting for a true MMOWS, oh well.
If they don't offer PTP MMOs sometime in the near future, then I am pretty much done with this genre. I am no fan of RMT and neither are my family and friends.
I don't think it matters much really, if the majority wants the RMT platform then it's the way things have to go I guess.
We will just head back to the games that we initially played and just getout of the house more to socialize. :P
RMT will never go away while developers keep making the same shortsighted game play design IE time sinks and grind sinks, some people like to enjoy the content of a game without it becoming a second job. The situation has also got worse because the organisations that began farming and selling game items cashed in and made a lot of money and this obviously has not gone unnoticed and the developers now want their slice of the pie.
So instead of innovative game design the genre will be stuck with endless grinding because the devs wont want to change anything because they can cash in on the people who want to avoid as much of the moronic game play as possible.
Best way I can respond to this reply is please stamp the word "clueless" on your forehead. Trying to use Perfect World to support an argument of how well RMT works is just beyond ludicrous.
Now I can easily use Perfect World as an prime example of why RMT does not work in MMO's. You cannot pvp or compete in the important Territory Wars in PW unless you devote significant resources to the item store. That is a known fact by anyone who has attempted either in game.
With that significant fact we can boil down your post to saying you feel it is ok for only the rich players to dominate a game?
Best way I can respond to this reply is please stamp the word "clueless" on your forehead. Trying to use Perfect World to support an argument of how well RMT works is just beyond ludicrous.
Now I can easily use Perfect World as an prime example of why RMT does not work in MMO's. You cannot pvp or compete in the important Territory Wars in PW unless you devote significant resources to the item store. That is a known fact by anyone who has attempted either in game.
With that significant fact we can boil down your post to saying you feel it is ok for only the rich players to dominate a game?
Why shouldn't they dominate the game? if you have a good reason other than personal jealousy it would be interesting to hear.
Easiest way to avoid gameplay of games you find to be unfun or too time consuming is to not play them. If you continue to play games that you find unfun or too time consuming then you ultimately support that playstyle therefore putting your voice in as a "yes" for more games like that.
I am sure you judge any single player game on it's gameplay whether not it is fun. Do the same with your MMOs, if something is unfun don't play it. That is what I do. I don't play games that I do not have time for or that I find unfun to the point where I would want to pay money to skip the game I payed for in the first place. That would be illogical.
Best way I can respond to this reply is please stamp the word "clueless" on your forehead. Trying to use Perfect World to support an argument of how well RMT works is just beyond ludicrous.
Now I can easily use Perfect World as an prime example of why RMT does not work in MMO's. You cannot pvp or compete in the important Territory Wars in PW unless you devote significant resources to the item store. That is a known fact by anyone who has attempted either in game.
With that significant fact we can boil down your post to saying you feel it is ok for only the rich players to dominate a game?
or you know...
maybe you don''t care a white about PvP?
The most important reason to be against RMTs that Richard Aihoshi failed to address is that if RMT becomes accepted then development will inevitably slant towards that which drives more RMT sales.
It may start with an simple robe or coat that is aesthetic only but eventually it will be a special weapon you cannot get without paying extra. How about nerfs intended not for balance but to refresh RMT sales as players buy up whatever is the new en vogue gear. How about new content becoming harder and harder for non RMT players as a way of driving new revenue. Any way you slice it RMTs are corrupting, and it doesn't take much to see how it can and will change MMOs forever.
RMTs will corrupt the genre and, ultimately, kill it altogether.
And yet, more people play games with RMT's than those without RMT's. Interesting...
I am not so sure more people play F2P than P2P nor that you can really compare since one is free and one is pay. Linux is free but does that mean that eventually Windows or OSX will be free - the dynamics do not directly relate. TV shows have ads so does that mean movie goers would tolerate ads as well? Magazines and newspapers have ads so could books get away with ads amidst their pages? F2P with RMT is a different animal. That being said, if you look at those games you can easily see the degradation I am talking about. I suppose such things are forgivable with no monthly but if it spreads to P2P games it will not take long before the entire MMO genre collapses.
Heck, look to normal software. Remember the days when Software 9.0 or Program 2010 was about the developers improving the program enough to actually need to release a new version and not just a calender event intended to force people to re-up and fork over some more cash? With RMTs MMOs development will become about new ways to drive RMT revenue and not new ways to keep players entertained so they re-up - MMOs will degrade (more so than they may be now) into gear chases on par with the old arcade games that seemed to have little point to them other than to suck quarters.
Show me your data where RMT have a greater population than P2P please.
People should probably be made aware that public idea mediums are almost universally compromised by money or the hope for some type of gain from those who have power, making the "RMT is inevitable" argument an obvious social/psychological push towards getting people to accept these revenue streams that go against the very essence of video gaming and fair play, moreso when combining them with a subscription. NO PLAYER would ever suggest such a thing, but these low-life industry turds have only one thing on their minds, how to get into your pants...pockets that is. This is why these arsehats have turned the mmo genre into a wasteland, "groupthunk" and corporatized to the gills.
I think it's the vocal minority that hate RMT, and that's exaggerated by most of the game publishers. Personally I've never had a problem with people buying items, cash or even characters. It doesn't affect my characters in the slightest. I've never come across the mythical gold farmers in WoW that steal all the leather, herbs and mining nodes either - they're always contested anyway by regular players.
Gold selling spam... that really does get my goat which is why I wrote SpamMeNot for World of Warcraft. tbh though WoW does a poor job at policing chat in general. Kids can spam their "anal" and "dirge" stuff all day long and abuse the same people over the course of years with little punishment, if any. That's certainly the case on the EU realms.
It's both true and disingenuous at the same time. Most RMT games aren't F2P anywhere but in the West and in the East they don't have many subscription games due to cultural differences.
I'm one of those people that are fine with paying a monthly sub, but if it has an item mall I will avoid the game at al costs.
But it does affect you, at least if it goes past selling of the most rudimentary asthetic only items. If weapons or other gear with consequential stats and/or benifits is sold then the developers have a revenue stream tied not to monthly subs and playing the game for enjoyment and they will necessarily be driven to create and develop items to maintain that revenue stream. Just think if all MMOs allowed a $5 character respect - how benificial does it now become if the DEVs want to consider swinging the NERF bat? Heck, why not - even if not called for because it will generate revenue from all the nuetered players paying to respec to usefullness. What about elite, or even average gear? Ever need a group to get something done? Well if you can just buy that new armor set instead of dealing with LFG for an hour or whatever, struggling through a tough instance or quest, or you just have limited time how many people will choose that easier route and then not be available for people wanting to play the game to get the item? And how long does anyone really think it would take for alpha classes or elite variants of common things normally unlocked or attained from in game accomplishment to be made available for sale? And once that happens why would the DEVs not start developing the in game process to such a difficult level as to try to force people to buy the things instead.
Simply put, you cannot play an MMO and not be affect by the rules and systems that affect how players get things - it is the very heart of an MMO and RMT will be a dagger in that heart.
I pay a fee to go to school, spend an amount of time taking advantage of the tools and teachers to better my ability to earn a good grade and advance based on my effort; i am not handed a grade, but must spend the time and utilize the time and tools available to me in order to progress.
When I choose to spend an additional amount of money on a prepatory course for a certain subject or type of exam, other students aren't boycotting my school because I choose to take advantage of another opportunity to be better prepared for advancing myself. Nor is the additional opportunity, that I'm willing to pay for in order to be a better student, handing me something that will automatically advance me; it's a matter of how I apply myself and utilize that additional tool that assists me in my effort and might make the difference in a lower than expected final grade or higher than expected final grade.
I'm not personally turned off by RMT for the same reasons, as long as the tools that are provided dont amount to handing someone a new level just because they had additional purchase power.
The school anology is a poor one but you ended well with teh above statement. I would argue that RMT has to do what you say there you would oppose to be succesful (maybe not buying levels but somehow buying power). If the RMT stuff is truly of now power value then it isn't goign to sell, or it won't sell widely. And once they have it in that you can buy harnless things like a haircut to get a new hairstlye how long before you can get a hairstyle that is not available any other way because that would obvious sell better? And then how long, if not at first, before selling har redoes that yielded new unique hair gives way to clothes as that is more money. And then same for armor as that is more money, then wepaons, and so on and so on and so on.
No developer is going to implement 'innocent' RMT and see the potential revenue go unearned because they are only selling useless items - it absolutely will lead to sellign of items, gear, XP, access, etc that does matter to everyone. And I don't think it takes any imagination to see game design be affected to encourage the buying of said items over the in game earning of them if the things are even available to be earned.
Seriously, how naive are people to no know this is enivatble if you let it in at all? I cannot help but think of the idiots back in the early 1900s here in the US that bought the argument that the income tax would never be raised above the 3% initially proposed when the 16th Amendment was being pushed. Once the system is in place, RMTs that is, games will lean to design that increases revenues meaning more and more important items and even unique items and eventually to gameplay design that necessitates such items.
The school anology is a poor one but you ended well with teh above statement.
Its not, especially if, as I mentioned, the RMT scenario doesn't hand you a level. Its that simple when implemented properly.
The school anology is a poor one but you ended well with teh above statement. I would argue that RMT has to do what you say there you would oppose to be succesful (maybe not buying levels but somehow buying power). If the RMT stuff is truly of now power value then it isn't goign to sell, or it won't sell widely. And once they have it in that you can buy harnless things like a haircut to get a new hairstlye how long before you can get a hairstyle that is not available any other way because that would obvious sell better? And then how long, if not at first, before selling har redoes that yielded new unique hair gives way to clothes as that is more money. And then same for armor as that is more money, then wepaons, and so on and so on and so on.
No developer is going to implement 'innocent' RMT and see the potential revenue go unearned because they are only selling useless items - it absolutely will lead to sellign of items, gear, XP, access, etc that does matter to everyone. And I don't think it takes any imagination to see game design be affected to encourage the buying of said items over the in game earning of them if the things are even available to be earned.
Seriously, how naive are people to no know this is enivatble if you let it in at all? I cannot help but think of the idiots back in the early 1900s here in the US that bought the argument that the income tax would never be raised above the 3% initially proposed when the 16th Amendment was being pushed. Once the system is in place, RMTs that is, games will lean to design that increases revenues meaning more and more important items and even unique items and eventually to gameplay design that necessitates such items.
Not to mention as well instead of what would have went into the game normally for everyone paying a sub fee, now will be added via the cash shop.
Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you).
I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.
The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further.
No, I do. In short, your against it and I'm for it. There are always varying opinions, so i hope you dont take offense. I dont often try to convince an apple that he can be a better orange; we need them both,
This is just incredibly naive. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that people won't be spending real money on items that are not of value in gameplay (certainly not buying them as much as non gameplay valuable items). So not matter how it starts it will end up with developers selling power in game, be it items, gear, XP, levels, respecs, etc, etc, etc.. And once it gets past the level of them selling superficial or cosmetic items only it will easily drive development to the point that in making regular acquisition of such items (i.e. through playing) harder and harder and more and more time consuming in order to make the buying of said things more attractive.
You make the point against RMTs right there. MMOs, no matter how different, work on a common system of time or effort earning accomplishment or to say it more simply it is about risk verse reward. The risk is the time, the reward the XP or gear you get from that time spent. If you introduce a new mechanic that allows players to simply exchange real money for the rewards without any of the time spent then you invalidate the existing system, at least in part. It breaks the integrity (and I mean integrity in the structural sense) of the game. Furthermore, as the RMT system is implemented then what is to stop developers from doubling and tripling the time required to play to earn various things to increase the amount of people using RMT to get the items, if the RMT items are even available through no paid means? Increase the play to earn 'grind like a mother' (as you put it) requirements to increase people willing to just buy thigns RMT. You see this in expansions all the time, developers design in something to the expansion that is 'better' to a degree that not having the expansion gimps players even in non expansion content. They do it to drive sales of the expansion and in the same way RMT will supplant entertainment value as the driving force between design goals - build what will get more people buying RMT items because that means more money over people playing to earn items.
This is just incredibly naive. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that people won't be spending real money on items that are not of value in gameplay (certainly not buying them as much as non gameplay valuable items). So not matter how it starts it will end up with developers selling power in game, be it items, gear, XP, levels, respecs, etc, etc, etc.. And once it gets past the level of them selling superficial or cosmetic items only it will easily drive development to the point that in making regular acquisition of such items (i.e. through playing) harder and harder and more and more time consuming in order to make the buying of said things more attractive.
I assume you accidently quoted my post above. I was stating that RMT eventually will take away from content that you would normally get in a subscription based game because why would they give you what they would before for your subscription fee and expansion packs when they can make you pay piece by piece in a RMT item shop? I don't mind if RMT games that are F2P but I will not play them. What is disturbing is when Everquest adds an item shop, it is now going into subscription based games where the content should all be included with your sub fee.
Also Everquest was never designed for that model. Any items should be obtained through gameplay. I I don't play games to swipe out the credit card and buy digital items, that isn't my idea of fun gameplay. I agree with your post as well. Well said.
Then would you both mind if they doubled the monthly sub? Or is that greed as well?
The only way it shows greed is if their expenses are so low and their profits are so high that they don't "need" to add different revenue streams but choose to anyways.
And then again, if they are a publiclly traded company then they have to maximize their profits for their stockholders. I'm sure both of you would be a bit miffed if your retirement funds or 401k's or whatever you have languished and didn't make any profit because the companies in your portfolio did just enough to stay afloat, keep people employed and invest a little in the prodcut and future developement.
Over the course of years you would then wonder why you don't have enough to retire and what were the companies doing with your money.
I have no problem with mixing them. But if it's the mixing of revenue types that you don't like then have them just raise the monthly fees (doesn't seem to have been raised by much in the last 5 years or so) until they can cover all costs and make the profit that they want/need.
That works for me.
But wait a minute, Sovrath.
MMOs have run on a subscription model, charging around $13-15 for how long now? About 10 years or so?
It's been working just fine that way.
Item malls are a way of companies "cashing in" on the money RMT companies are making. They realize people spend more on in-game items in a month than they do on a monthly sub alone... so, instead of taking measures to combat it more effectively or aggressively, they're taking the "join 'em" approach, jumping on the bandwagon, and implementing a system that allows them to get a piece of that pie.
It *is* greed.
The difference is that while before all the items they'd have added were included for that monthly sub fee and the player merely had to *play the game* to get them... whether they were useful items or merely "fluff". With item malls, they are making it necessary to pull out the credit card in order to obtain those items. In several so-called "free-to-play" MMOs, I've learned from end-game players that, in no uncertain terms, spending a significant amount of money in the item mall - more than a mere monthly sub - is necessary if you want to remain competitive or be truly effective.
They're not implementing Item Malls because somehow monthly subscriptions are a failing paradigm. They're implementing them because they can get more money overall - for the same amount of content, or less, mind you - by nickel-and-diming the players for content that would normally would be in the game anyway under a subscription model.
They're replacing gameplay with charges to a credit card.
Your "raising the subscription fee" analogy doesn't exactly work,either, because you're still implying that somehow, suddenly, $15 a month isn't enough... and there's nothing to indicate that it isn't. If they're going to increase the amount of a subscription, they better damn well make sure the amount or quality of the game I'm paying for increases proportionally.
Its not, especially if, as I mentioned, the RMT scenario doesn't hand you a level. Its that simple when implemented properly.
It's a poor analogy because levels are a given. Unless you're standing around doing absolutely nothing.. not killing any mobs, doing any quests, etc... you're going to level.
Conversely, needing a better set of gear or weapon to be competitive or at least effective is not a given. Even if you're out killing mobs and doing quests, you're not guaranteed that item. When those better pieces of equipment become available only through an item mall and cannot be earned in-game, then it does become a problem for those who don't have the money to spend on them. It creates an non-level playing field between those with the extra cash to spend and those without.
Exactly WSImike, if we where to put it back in his flawed school analogy then it would mean that in addition the normal class that you pay for with tuition and earn a degree from the have extra certifications that they issue (if you buy them) and companies prefer people with the degree plus certification so being a degree only person you are SOL. But again, comparing RMT in MMO to education is really just a bad analogy.
A better analogy is to look at how TV is free but supported by advertising (this is RMT in a way) and movies have no ads since you pay a viewing fee (this is traditional sub MMO). Adding in ads to a movie (not the preview stuff before it starts but inserted in to the movie itself a small commercial break like with a TV show) is what RMT in a subscription game would be like. Yes, you are still seeing the whole movie you would have saw without it but it is, obviously, a totally different experience when you insert ads (at least for a lot of folks it is). Once it became accepted is it hard to imagine it would change filmmaking? Suddenly movies are broken up into segments of story and action that fit between the commercial breaks. Is it hard to believe that movies would likely inch longer and long to fit in an extra commercial break too? You can kind of see this now with product placement in ads - anyone not believe that the new Star Trek movie scene with brat Kirk driving the car was not at least in part as much about a way to get in a product placement spot even though this is something happening way in the future when companies and money doesn't exists?
If you let it in then it will take over and you will only have your own naivety to blame for the downfall of MMOs.
The TV comparrison is bad as well. I dont see adds that dont change or enhance the viewing as a good RMT example.
It is only a good example in terms of two similar mediums with different pay models and how those pay models are relevent to their varied development and production. If you look at TV you can easily see how it being advertising revenue based makes for a very different product than movies which are viewing fee based. I wasn't trying to compare TV/Movies to MMOs, rather I was trying to look to how TV and movies differ based on their different revenue models.
I would rather see login game screen ads and ads on my load screens in game before I am willing to put up with RMT which effects the game itself. If companies need extra money, squeeze every ad for Mt. Dew or whatever you can on the login screen and in dungeon instance load screens/zone line load screens.
Those load screens have little to do with anything and would benefit the game companies with extra income they seem to desperately want.