Dana Massey Asks "Why Not?": Wild West MMO
Last week fans focused in on the Wild West suggestion, so this week Dana lays out his ideal Wild West MMO.
Last week, I laid out several historical settings for potential MMOs. The forum debate that followed zigged and zagged, but one point slowly snapped into focus. In general, people seemed to be really jazzed about the idea of a Wild West MMO. Today, I ask why not a Wild West MMO, and lay out how I’d like to see that game tackled.
The heart of the Wild West was reputation. It was a fresh start for those who went, a new beginning and an opportunity to reinvent yourself. All the good stories seem to revolve around some unlikely or unwilling hero who steps up at the right moment and becomes an immortal anecdote in history.
Thus, any MMO should revolve around these same ideals. I’d like to see a Wild West MMO where the main currency is not experience, but reputation and, of course, money.
Typical MMOs use experience to limit where people can go, what they can kill and what kind of gear they can have. That just doesn’t work in this context, nor, it has been proven, do online RPG mechanics work so well once you get beyond swords and sorcery.
As such, my ideal Wild West MMO would use basic FPS mechanics. Point and shoot. Nothing fancy.
;)
Gear would be based entirely on what your avatar could afford. They’d collect rewards and money through their quests and travels and use that to buy bigger and better weapons that allow them to pull new tricks in combat. But still, how fast someone draws, is based on their reflexes, not some statistical modifier and die roll.
Reputation, though, would be the ultimate backbone of the game. Players would harvest reputation through deeds in the world. Each time they hunted down someone more famous or pulled off some heist, they’d rise up the ranks and get closer to the most famous guy in the Wild West.
As players earned more reputation, this would do more than just give them bragging rights. Different schemes within the world would require a group leader of a certain reputation to attempt. The more insane the scheme, the more famous a leader does a band out outlaws require. So, while players could stick up wanderers at an early level, a train heist requires someone with much more fame under their belt to even undertake.
No one will accuse the Wild West of being a safe place, which is why to work, this game would have to be PvP driven. Instead of typical faction based warfare, this is a world that is far more inclined toward a free for all. It’s not a true caper unless there is the fear that there may be a Robert Ford among you.
Players would need to find people they trust and work well with to achieve success in the game, while lone travelers would be the prey to lots of upstart criminals.
The upside of this system is that while gold and reputation determine your gear and the capers you can attempt, even the newest player can get off a lucky shot. There would be no way for the obscenely high level to just lord over people, unless they got there purely through their own superior skill.
And that’s why after a certain level of infamy or fame, reputation should be able to be taken away in as close to a form of permadeath as anyone is ever likely to see in a mainstream game. After a player reaches a certain level of reputation, they begin to get a reputation. Bad guys will want to take out that famous law enforcer, while good guys will hunt down and capture the most hardened criminals.
At that high level, once killed, they’d be able to lose reputation to their killer in a ladder system. The victim would still retain all of their gold and weapons, they’d just drop down the rungs of infamy and need to regain the trust of those around them in order to attempt some of the most ridiculous heists the game has to offer.
The ladder-type reputation system would only take affect for the top rung of players. It would be maddening if players were constantly reset as they learned the game, but the danger of becoming the most famous gunslinger in the Wild West was always that some young buck would want to prove he’s faster than you in every town you wandered through. This system simulates that.
;)
Obviously, the big thing I’ve glossed over so far is how the Native Americans would play into this entire thing. There are a few ways to approach it.
The first is to just ignore it and save yourself some potential real-world headaches. Look at the famed HBO series Deadwood. Rarely did the Natives even come into play. The show was mostly about the struggle between law and order, which is primarily where I see this potential game as well.
Obviously, the Wild West has all sorts of other MMOish aspects to exploit. This was an era where when you wanted a house, you built it. It was an era of industry and profits, and it was an era of the gold rush. Crafting, property, harvesting and commerce would all also become major parts of the game. The richest men in this MMO would need to hire the best and most trustworthy gunslingers to make sure their goods reached their destination.
Last week’s comment thread mentioned a host of table top games and other ideas for a Wild West MMO. And heck, other people have tried. What I've outlined is just one possible approach. The only thing I can say is that it is a title I’d play.
More Dana Massey Asks Why Not? Features:
More Columns:
More Features:
Each Thursday, he asks the question "Why Not?" about some element of MMOs.
Every time I see Young Guns or Tombstone it maks me want to play a Western game like Red Dead and it makes me wish they finally put forth a quality western online game.
I always wanted a wild west mmo,instead of classes they would choose there profession,i.e Sherrif,blacksmtih,barman,outlaw etc etc and then find a town were there trade was needed,it could then take on a life of its own(the way mmo's should).
Quests could be any manner of thing but even say a barman could join posse's to hunt down outlaws etc....tbh it could be endless what you could fit into a game of this type,though with no mage running in and nuking everyone is there a dev willing to take this on?
I have been playing this one for months.
Concept sounds very interesting. It would be very tough, though, for people not in with a clan/guild/posse (and yes, "posse" would just have to be the themed title for guilds) to do very much unless you made the world truly large, like Dereth in Asheron's Call as opposed to most modern games where you're guaranteed to run into someone every 2 minutes or so.
I'm not sure how "out-drawing" someone would work as it seemes it would boil down to pushing a key on your keyboard. So it's just who pushes it first and by most accounts that makes that person a murderer.
A Wild West MMO would be fun as long as they made it a sanbox game and did not put a bunch of linar quest. It would need to be a living world as well, could not be a static world.
A static world would ruin any Wild West feel, I mean the Wild West was changing hour to hour and day to day. Hense the name "Wild".
I think they would have to make it so that the player had to aim after drawing so that a slower draw could still win as long as they had better aim.
Duels were not only about speed but accuracy. Accuracy was key, just pulling your weapon faster did not mean a win.
I would want to see different guns have different accuracy stats as well as allow weapons to "age" over time and lose accuracy.
I remember playing "the wild bunch" game on the spectrum and really enjoying it,even thinking of that game now brings in alot of idea's for a wild west mmo,the fact you had to buy everything including food for your horse when traveling and feeling the need to gamble at the poker table to get some extra funds,Like I posted earlier the idea's are there and they could be almost endless but what dev is willing to take a chance on a AAA title of this type.
1 thing is for sure it would be a welcome breath of fresh air.
Neat game, I'd never heard of it, but besides "being in the West," I wouldn't call this game much like the outline in the article.
I think they would have to make it so that the player had to aim after drawing so that a slower draw could still win as long as they had better aim.
Duels were not only about speed but accuracy. Accuracy was key, just pulling your weapon faster did not mean a win.
I would want to see different guns have different accuracy stats as well as allow weapons to "age" over time and lose accuracy.
True, and I wasn't saying that isn't the case. I was just saying that if you had the misfortune of being fast on the keyboard and deadly accurate, you're doomed to be a murderer. Generally in the old west a guy who drew first was labeled a killer if he won. The "skill", I guess, was in letting your opponent get that split-second "headstart" on the draw and then still felling him. I suppose a "reward" could be put in for letting that happen (more reputation?) but most FPS inclined players are pretty good shots once they get a feel for a game. Don't think it would happen often.
Neat game, I'd never heard of it, but besides "being in the West," I wouldn't call this game much like the outline in the article.
No, it dosnt have things like 3d and what not, but it is in the setting, and does a good job of being a "wild west" MMO game.
It has player progression. Town building, dualing, soon to have forts, gear, gear sets, quests ETC...
Ive always thought a wild west mmo would be a no brainer... 6 gun toting outlaws, trappers, mountain men, miners and gamblers...
Oh man pvp would be a blast - Train and bank robberies, cattle rustling and good old fashioned bush-wacking...
Would make a great sandbox MMO
Honestly I don't think a Wild-West style mmo would work because of one reason, the look.
There would be alot of gray, brown, and black. From the buildings to the environment to the clothes, everything was dirty, dusty, or just uncoloured, because dye cost extra. I mean sure, we could add colours, but when you've got pink and purple cowboys running around, it takes away from some of the flavour of the game. For mounts there's horses, and wagons (being pulled by horses). Weapons are pretty much just knives or guns, and it would be hard to add any special effects to them. No sorcery or magic or anything like that, so it would be hard to have anything "flashy" looking.
I just don't think it would work without having to compromise the authenticity or the integrity of the setting.
Like I posted earlier and others have added it would be the sandbox that would keep ppl playing,build your guys blacksmith shop or just log on to make some cash shoeing horses,log on to play some poker or indeed sell some drinks as a barman...that would be the idea,it would have to be,you cant have big shoulder armor etc,a real sandbox game and a living world,then it could very well work.
True, and I wasn't saying that isn't the case. I was just saying that if you had the misfortune of being fast on the keyboard and deadly accurate, you're doomed to be a murderer. Generally in the old west a guy who drew first was labeled a killer if he won. The "skill", I guess, was in letting your opponent get that split-second "headstart" on the draw and then still felling him. I suppose a "reward" could be put in for letting that happen (more reputation?) but most FPS inclined players are pretty good shots once they get a feel for a game. Don't think it would happen often.
Okay I see what your saying. Most duels nobody died, it was about wounding the other guy enough to win the duel. sure some people died but I am willing to bet most duels nobody died.
That would be another cool feature, being able to pinpoint your shot and have it do damage to certain body parts. IE arm, leg.
In a MMORPG there is progression. I think it would be difficult to put in any meaningful progression a shooting game. What "classes" would there be and what abilities would you give them without looking ridiculous? Remember this would be based off a real life time period so I don't think you would be snaring people and tanking .. healing. There couldn't be any tanks or healers .. where would group strategy come in? Everyone just shooting?
I think it would work for a massive fps game but that is it .. nothing persistant.
I'll only play it if we can catch syphillis....games with STIs are cool :)
True, and I wasn't saying that isn't the case. I was just saying that if you had the misfortune of being fast on the keyboard and deadly accurate, you're doomed to be a murderer. Generally in the old west a guy who drew first was labeled a killer if he won. The "skill", I guess, was in letting your opponent get that split-second "headstart" on the draw and then still felling him. I suppose a "reward" could be put in for letting that happen (more reputation?) but most FPS inclined players are pretty good shots once they get a feel for a game. Don't think it would happen often.
Okay I see what your saying. Most duels nobody died, it was about wounding the other guy enough to win the duel. sure some people died but I am willing to bet most duels nobody died.
That would be another cool feature, being able to pinpoint your shot and have it do damage to certain body parts. IE arm, leg.
Okay, now here is where I'll disagree. Most duels if you're talking english and/or european history, that was the case. We over here in the west had "gunfights". It was a point of pride for many on how many notches they had on the grip of their pistol. It was about killing the man the majority of the time. WHen you "called someone out", it wasn't to wound them. It was to kill them. If you wanted to make a name by "trying" Billy the Kid, you went away in a pine box.
There were plenty of Doctors back then. A plausible healing system could be done with bandages and whiskey. Course there's always cauterizing the wound too.
http://frontier1859.com/ is a MMo for the wild west thats been about thats still in the sponcership phase, last i hears one guy was gonna sponcer it but i havnt checked back for awhile.
Progression would be the reputation of your Char, the NPCs would start to offer you bigger and better jobs or contracts.
Classes? No need for classes. Skills would be the way to go. Off the top of my head skill list.
Horse riding
Duel pistols
Rifles
Shotguns
reload - pistols
reload - rifles
reload - shotugns
accuracy - pistols
accuracy - rifles
accuracy - shotguns
speed draw - pistols
speed draw - rilfes
Med wounds - healer type - heal gun shot wounds
gunsmith
ammo smith
leathersmith - saddles, bags, ect
Whiskey making
Drinking
Leadership
Short list off the top of my head
There were plenty of Doctors back then. A plausible healing system could be done with bandages and whiskey. Course there's always cauterizing the wound too.
Scars as involuntary customization!
Okay I see what your saying. Most duels nobody died, it was about wounding the other guy enough to win the duel. sure some people died but I am willing to bet most duels nobody died.
That would be another cool feature, being able to pinpoint your shot and have it do damage to certain body parts. IE arm, leg.
Okay, now here is where I'll disagree. Most duels if you're talking english and/or european history, that was the case. We over here in the west had "gunfights". It was a point of pride for many on how many notches they had on the grip of their pistol. It was about killing the man the majority of the time. WHen you "called someone out", it wasn't to wound them. It was to kill them. If you wanted to make a name by "trying" Billy the Kid, you went away in a pine box.
I know in movies and such they always kill the other man in the duel but I would think that in reality most duels ended with one man wounded instead of dead. I could be wrong and I am sure I am.
This could be worked around in a MMO. You get rewarded for not drawing first but winning the duel. If you drew first and killed the other guy, the law in that town could not be after you, which would be cool.
Well, I know one thing. I would play it.
When I was first getting into SWG, a few months before I joined beta2, the devs were talking about the career possibilitires. Of course they Tasos:ed it, talkin gabout the endless possibilities you had and how you could do anything. They even talked about "owning your own bar" and that was my goal. I was thinking about having a bar in Mos Eisley, a tired rusty droid in the back room creating the food and drink, myself in the bar handling the costumers and having a nice side income by buying and selling smuggled goods underneath the nose of the Empire.
Of course, beta came and I quickly understood that was impossible.
But in a western game? Having a bartender with a pianist in the corner and a shotgun under the bar... It is a flipping must!
Yup, I would be there... Now go build!
That would be fun, running your own bar in a Wild West town, holding poker games and maybe some girls upstairs. yea it could be a blast
Western flavor is pretty good, but it needs more ghost rock.
>>
Players would need to find people they trust and work well with to achieve success in the game, while
lone travelersupstart criminals would be the prey to lots ofupstart criminalslone travelers.<<
Fixed :D
plain and simple... free for all PVP is crippling for casual players as they/we are constantly harassed and preyed upon to the point of canceling and becoming ery negative about the game similar to EVE... EVE would be much more populated if it wasnt for the pvp.
so far most all you talked about was just a call of duty fps with colts and winchesters "lame"
go around and rob people or rob banks or rob trains? oh ya throw the casual players a bone by throwing together some lame crafting system? ya i can see it now.
lets see.. theres the gold rush
settling, farming,, ranching,
cattle drives
traping
building railroads
I have one good reason that we will never see this.
Interest
Look at how many Western Movies or TV shows exist, and I think you can see the popularity.
MMO's are out to make money, and a Wild West MMO would fail horribly.
First off, you can have a progression of skill while still holding onto a player-skill basis for a game. Many solo games have been done where advancing skills in shooting, for instance, have the effect of reducing "shake" in your aim, or giving you more time in a "zoomed in" perspective.
I think you could build this out in a very sand-box manner, using the acquisition of money, property, and reputation as measures of success. You could certain aim for becoming a cattle-baron, top gunfighter, or mayor of a town without too much of a stretch.
The main problem I see that would need resolving is death. Without a death penalty of some sort the world would be a constant running gunfight. A setting like this requires that the threat of death be serious enough that you can "rob" or coerce people without always murdering them.
If a day of play consists of 25 gunfights in a row... it would take the whole excitement of gunfighting away in short order. Come to think of it, it would be best if posses, lawmen, trials and hangings were an integral part of the game. Focus on the law vs. barbarism aspect of western development, add in some serious penalties along the way... and see what comes of it.
Ya and lets look at how popular Pirates of the Burning Sea is. I'd assume that a Wild West MMO wouldn't be any more popular.
Pirates of the burning sea is not a bad game, I dislike it because it has to many instances for my enjoyment. I think that the Wild West is more popular then pirates.
A WILD WEST mmorpg would be the ULTIMATE SANDBOX.
If done right , it would be HUGE.
Would be awesome to run a saloon, be a lawman or a outlaw. Blacksmith, tailor , doctor, dancer, gambler, miner, cowboy, the list goes on and on.
and finally, it would at last be a game where town building would go hand and hand with the game itself.
Make it just as wild and crazy and unpredictable as the WIld West was. PvP at the drop of a coin.
Remember fellas, there was no carebears in the wild west. They stayed back east and wrote newspapers and made chocolate.
GIVE ME A WILD WEST SANDBOX! NOW!
As long as I get to play Tuco....I'm in.
More or less take a game design like the original Ultima Online and make it an aold west design. You pretty much went out and cut down trees, mined ore, etc...
The biggest problem I see....well, most fantasy MMO's have ogres and goblins running around to kill. What will a western have? Coyotes? Indians? <Sorry, Native Americans, with all respect!> Will we be able to buy and sale slaves? Build railroads?
I honestly think that I would play an old west MMO in a heartbeat, but we need to have plenty of things to do. like maybe for every 100 acounts on a server there can be 25 bad guys, that way it's a 3 to 1 ratio of good vs bad, and would add some excitment.
A good Wild West MMO would also have to have Native America culture or lore in it as well. Historically stuff like the battle at Little Big Horn or lore wise something like the Legend of the Thunderbird. Plus Native America should and would have to be playable characters. Man, I wouldn't mind scalping with a tomahawk in PVP. Also bow and arrows and spears could be weapons as well.
SWG smuggler/pistoleer gave enough of the cowboy feel for me. First you'd work up a good bounty and be "on the run" from the law, and then join the rebels to be an outcast and have a target on your head for the storm troopers. On the flipside there were bounty hunters, who were the law. Sometimes corrupt and sometimes not, like deputies.
See ya in space cowboy
Of course you could get PvE missions for Cowboys, rustlers, Indians, outlaws, lawmen. It dosent hvae to be Orcs...errr coyotes.
I firmly believe that Native American Tribes should be playable. After all, it would be a "Historic" mmorpg.
What would be more fun then big guild battles between Cowboys and Indians while us Outlaws are robbing the local bank :)
PotBS may not be pulling down WoW numbers, but it is a successful product with a loyal and profitable userbase.
Just because games don't hit 10 million doesn't mean they failed. By pre-WoW standards, Pirates would be considered a mild success.
Would this mmorpg include the rape ,murder and occupation of a land belonging to indigenous native indians as well.
Bad idea and would not work.
Too much bad magic related to the wild wild west.
if this is true, just one flaw in your reasoning, exactly how many sword and board fantasy TV shows you seeing? been awhile since Zena was on the air my friend and that was Greak based mythology. Seems like as many or more main stream Western films come out as Fantasy. Side there are a couple Table top games with a western theme and a fantasy lean, these would no doubt apeal to both markets. Can I hear a Steam punk western MMO ala wild wild west?
=P that is Steam not Speam in the poll below, but I can not figure out how to edit the poll =P
Wild West is gay ... a bunch of guys ridding horses and chewing crap and prettending to be manly.Id rather go an play Hello Kitty Online.
So do it ....
http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/695351/Red-Dead-Redemption-Debut-Trailer.html
Thats what it should feel like.
If it doesn't feel like that, then it shouldn't be made.
I come from Kansas, my family created the cowboy boot (My last name's Hyer, you can look it up if you want). A Wild West MMO is the MMO i've wanted for as long as i thought about the genre. Come on Rockstar Games, make an MMO that isn't GTA, there's already 8 of those coming out anyway.
Star Wars Galaxies was a Wild West MMO in a scifi skin, once upon a time, sure its dead now... but once it was different. They should look at what it once was for guideance.
Certainly would be better than what we have coming down the pike right now in the genre. More fantasy ripoffs, they all get old after awhile.
Have to avoid the native americans though, that would be a real problem.
Coming from the rich in history rocky mountains, I can say I would love a western themed game. Native Americans would be a big part of the game for me., as well as the settlers. Buffalo hunts, fishing, cooking, ranching/being nomadic/farming, building, panning for gold, trapping, railroads, Pony Express, so many things to do. People didn't just go sit in bars, get drunk and get in duels...or rob trains and stage coaches.
There is always racial injustice in games....elves vs. dwarves for example. It would have to be treated with respect. Your magic class could be Indian shamen or medicine men/women. Ranged would not only be guns but bow and arrow. There could be a stealth class using knives....thieves/ cheating in a poker game could perhaps use some special skills there. Soldiers/Army and sharpshooting.
Indian guides.....
Lots of possibilities there.
I think there is one solid clunker in the idea of a WIld West MMO.
Native Americans
If you don't have them, you will get a ton of criticism from rabid wild west fans. If you include them, you will get an equal storm of controversy claiming that you are insulting them, didn't get some detail right or otherwise botched it. (Not to mention possible legal suits)
Any claim to that historical setting might also run into issues with including or not including african americans, chinese immigrant labor and the mexicans...and don't forget the southerners or our whacky pals the Mormons.
To avoid all this, I suspect any "western" MMO would be very loosely historical at best and most likely fall back on "fantasy" elements for the "bad guys" just to avoid the crapstorm of legal action that having indians, mexicans or any other real group as the "badguys" would cause.
You just lost 30% of the MMO players with this. The ones that don't grind to have a character looks like how they want it to.
You lost even much more as very few MMO players want combat based on reflexes.
There's a thing that's missing in a western MMO it's monters. Players will be bored pretty fast to kill humans, wolves and serpents only.
But I agree it could be a Fun Game.
Native Americans....
All, you, have, to, do, is, portray, them, realistically.
THATS IT.
Native Americans want to be respected, if they're not made realistically, then they'd get angry. If they are? No "serious" problems.
Scars as involuntary customization!
I know! Talk about character customization. And not limited to just the character creation at the beginning.
@TdogSkal
I think I'd have it so that the guy that drew second, if he killed the guy the law wouldn't be after him. If the guy who drew first won, then yeah, the law dogs would be after him. Course, if we are going "hardcore", once you go down the path of the lawless, there is no going back. Since an item like jail time, where a character would have to sit in jail real time to do time for the crime, wouldn't be implemented, well, then, you go bad, you stay bad. KOS in all town with lawmen and KOS to every law abiding character.
I'd even go so far as no "bad guy" cities. The lawless would have to truly live off their victims. Multiple accounts per server, but if one character on your account goes bad, they all get the stigma. No buying ammo or supplies with a "good character" and dropping the supplies off in the wilds so you can log in with your outlaw and get them.
Screw classes. Stop thinking about WoW Theme-Park clones and start thinking about other ways to make an MMO. Seriously, this class crap has got to die ASAP. I'm so tired of being forced into one of 5 or so roles I could care less about. Let me build my own character.
Perhaps, but in my opinion, we've seen that gun-based RPG games have a tough time catching on. See case Tabula Rasa. If you make this a pure PRG in that sense of the word, I think it's just in that grey area where it could be so much neater. If you're going to have guns, FPS is the way to go IMO.
Scars as involuntary customization!
I know! Talk about character customization. And not limited to just the character creation at the beginning.
@TdogSkal
I think I'd have it so that the guy that drew second, if he killed the guy the law wouldn't be after him. If the guy who drew first won, then yeah, the law dogs would be after him. Course, if we are going "hardcore", once you go down the path of the lawless, there is no going back. Since an item like jail time, where a character would have to sit in jail real time to do time for the crime, wouldn't be implemented, well, then, you go bad, you stay bad. KOS in all town with lawmen and KOS to every law abiding character.
I'd even go so far as no "bad guy" cities. The lawless would have to truly live off their victims. Multiple accounts per server, but if one character on your account goes bad, they all get the stigma. No buying ammo or supplies with a "good character" and dropping the supplies off in the wilds so you can log in with your outlaw and get them.
Sorry I miss typed it, I agree with you, that was my idea.... Draw second and win, you get rewarded... Draw first and win, the law is after you unless you have a justifiable reason.
And if you have read any of the literature, historical debate or recent writings on or from them you should know that there is nothing even vaguely resembling a concesus of what that "realistic" portrayal would be...which is why it's a virtual impossibility for a gaming company.
As for the FPS thing, it really just doesn't work unless there is no pvp or no consequences to dying. There are just too many things that can mess up a "twitch" based game for most people to accept it. Latency, lag, lost packets, computer hiccups, differing server locations and relay distances etc. Players deal with that in games like WW2O because there is NO permanence to the character and no real loss, they won't in a game with permanent character progression unless there is no downside to losing.
However there are lots of non-class based systems which could work and plenty of non-twitch combat options without falling back on the EQ standard press auto-attack or the current craze of special manuever wheels and trays with cooldowns.
Sometimes I wonder if Deadlands has ever been considered as a base for an MMORPG. The tabletop game owns and I see a lot of potential here.
I can see it now, a truly sandbox wild west MMO. Why limit it to reputation? Why not have the ability to run your own town in the Wild West?
Here's my pitch for a Wild West MMO...
Player Built Cities
Very in depth, you can open your own barbershop, Butcher shop, hotel or casino and rake in the cash. In the beginning all there would be is maybe an NPC town and guilds gathering enough resources to build their own city and stake claim.
Trade Routes
There would be the ability to build trains, connect cities to one another, travel from one city to the next with a wagon, be wary though, you could get hijacked, hire guards to protect your loot. Your town might have the biggest gold mine around but that town next to you has the coal you need!
FPSMMO
We don't need mobs, just scenerios really. How silly would the Wild West look if you were sent on a quest to kill 10 Wolves. You are going to hunt them down with your revolver? Or you just farmed experience by killing the loitering level 5 Thieves outside of town? It wouldn't work. Don't use auto aim like in Tabula Rasa either, just point and shoot like counter strike.
Specialize
You could focus on more fighting power, be a guard, mercenary or bandit. Or you could focus on professionalism such as Doctor, Businessman or Carpenter! All the way up to financing yourself with your skill at poker! Why fight and risk losing your life if you could hire others to do it for you?
Health System
Ok, I've been mortally wounded by that wolf I was killing. Just let me sit down for a few moments and I'll be good as new in 10 seconds! Ahh yes... I'm completely fine! Why not be innovative here? If you get shot in the leg you need a Doctor! Not only that but your run speed isn't going to be too great is it?
Reputation System
With more reputation, you can exert more power, high enough and you can apply for that local sherriff position! You'd be more valued at whatever you did. If you gained most of your reputation guarding trains, guess what? You could ask for a bigger salary, or get hired to guard more valuable assets. Be warned though, the more reputation you have the more someone else is going to want to hunt you down, and the more money they'll get if they succeed too!
Bounty System
You can place your own bounties on players. Whether they might be competition for your business or it's personal revenge. Go to the local Bounty Hunter meeting place and you'll just need to stick a picture on the wall and REWARD $1,000 underneath. Someone is bound to attempt to take them out if it's worth the difficulty!
ALTERNATIVE
This type of MMO can always be done in the same way Eve was done. Simply have countless towns, possibly named after current towns and historic locations. In the east you'd have "High Sec", and the further you got west it would become "Low Sec" and finally 0 sec! Basically just Eve, Wild West style.
Interesting idea to be sure. I think a Weird West setting would have more appeal but a brave developer could try for a more historical setting.
It would be interesting to see how Guilds would develop in such a game.
Since guilds will always form in a MMO, it would be helpful to have a form of Factions - Territory Government and Outlaws.
Guild aligned as Outlaws would just be roaming bands of banditos and robbers and such.
Guilds aligned with the Territory Government would be like patrolling calvavry units or marshal gangs or such and permitted access to gear like matching uniforms etc.
Without such some system of factions, all guilds would just be roaming outlaw bands. That's more of a post-apocalytic setting rather than a classic Old West setting IMO
Besides how cool would it be to play as a small group that runs into a large band of bandits, flee from them and then have a calvary guild show up? lol
a mmo with guns without manual aiming would be awful. twitch mmos are slowly emerging, as technology improves hopefully there will be a cool western mmo.
they should just make a gunslinger mmo. be like a cross between western and post apolcalyptic.
I think The Dark Tower could make for a great MMO.
"The series incorporates themes from multiple genres, including fantasy fiction, science fantasy, horror and western elements."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(series)
www.stephenking.com/DarkTower/
Sorry, but I'm not smart enough to make nice links.
Perhaps, but in my opinion, we've seen that gun-based RPG games have a tough time catching on. See case Tabula Rasa. If you make this a pure PRG in that sense of the word, I think it's just in that grey area where it could be so much neater. If you're going to have guns, FPS is the way to go IMO.
Tabula Rasa was a heap of steaming..well, leave it at that, with or without guns. The game itself was the failure.
Look at a game like AO, it had guns and it ran well for quite awhile.
Also lets see how something like Huxly works out.
I honestly think that a wild west game could be great, I am a fan of RPG and FPS, and I know they will have a suitable combonation eventually.
Doesn't Planetside have a small following too?
Tabula Rasa was a heap of steaming..well, leave it at that, with or without guns. The game itself was the failure.
Look at a game like AO, it had guns and it ran well for quite awhile.
Also lets see how something like Huxly works out.
I honestly think that a wild west game could be great, I am a fan of RPG and FPS, and I know they will have a suitable combonation eventually.
Doesn't Planetside have a small following too?
TR had its problems, but the whole "FPS-like RPG experience" I think is what really turned people off at a core level. The game wasn't a gem, but lesser games have made it further.
Huxley and Planetside, as well as The Agency should give us a better idea of what an FPS/MMO can do. I think as far as this particular idea is concerned, I was thinking much closer to The Agency than Planetside, which to me is just "too open."
Danas' reputation idea is a good idea, higher rep to permit you to take on those more impressive events but it'll prompt more 'heat' as others attempt to feed on your rep and earn a 'name' for themselves. And a note to the poster who mentioned the high death rate... 'Billy the Kid' was an infamous bloke yet only has 21 kills to his record, I'm sure this wasn't counting those that history either missed or didn't care about (sorry to any mexicans & chinese in his path), but its still not a huge number compared with the number possible in a day of mmo play. Hence most gun-fights can end with everyone alive(ish). Of course we need to have a greater cost than just rep, else it'll be a free-for-all, with bullets flying everywhere. The apparent imperritive for KOS status can be linked to the rep system, hence you'll only be 'spotted' if you create a big enough disturbance or your high enough rep given the skill of the local law-folk; this links to the EVEesk security sectors, hence more developed locations can have a positive modifier to the lawfolks ability to red-flag lower rep criminal types, and so enable the KOS. Without the 'permission' of the law you will be restricted from firing on each other unless you're willing to accept that you'll be gaining a rep and not a good one. I think this means you can have two reps added together a good and a bad, hence doing a lot of 'bad' things will earn you name as an infamous criminal, but doing a lot of 'good' can still result in a famous name. And high rep either godd/bad or a combination of the two would be used for 'quest' access.
The FPS sounds reasonable, but I think some measure of character skill should be incorporated into combat, perhaps permitting faster response to a 'fire' command, as well as faster reloading. A 'gun shake' ideas already been mentioned, as has the ability to zoom in- with both zoom factor and zoom rate. Hence some could be better at slower but more accurate shots, while others are more reliant upon shooting from the hip. I imagine some degree of improved 'bullet dodge' would mitigate the worst shots and so reduce the amount of time spent being patched up... not quite as realistic, but who wants to spend all their time hiding and even running from cover to cover (no matter how sensible), its supposed to be a sterotype of the wild west rather than the real thing. This resilience can be developed with different character styles having different rationals for such resilience, eg: grizzled mountain men simply shrugging off puny pistol rounds, while experienced gun-slingers just seem to stand in the right place at the right time. Of course to maintain the idea of a kid shooting down the big name we cant make this resilience as effective as the difference in capabilties experienced upon many mmos... a difficult one to judge.
As for the arguement for/against a wider race base, I'd simply say: sure why not permit a much wider set of player models, but I wouldn't get caught up on trying to model every potential culture, if possible- I'd love it, but lets face it, we want a game thats pretty good today (and may sire a great many potentially better clones) rather than waiting for that super game that never seems to arrive (someone please prove me wrong).
a friend of mine made up a DnD campaign based on Oregon Trail.
it was AWESOME! Amish was a race and classes were Banker, Snake Oil Peddler etc... Farmers were the tanks, and the skill Farmer's Tan allowed them to absorb some damage.
there wasn't any magic. altho i see an appeal in mixing fantasy elements and magic with the wild west, i think the current market is ready to distance themselves from that. (anyone remember Wild ARMS 3?)
Oregon was an entire continent, ready to be explo(red)(ited)(ded).
anyway, THIS article is really focused on the whole outlaw thing and i would want to see the scope widened. i dont want to be limited to either robbing trains or, uh... killing people trying to rob trains...
alot of folks would be content to pan for gold or fur trap, slap their goods on a burro, and build a trade empire... ya know, eventually build and own a railroad or two?
True points. I was trying to stay under 1200 words :)
I would envision both the outlaw and lawman track, but also the trader, crafter, explorer types as well. I also kind of glossed over the PvP aspects. Honestly, I wasn't thinking 100% open PvP everywhere, but more akin to levels of PvP available depending on who you are, who they are and where you are. More similar to say Old UO.
I am still hoping Superstition Studios is working on a Deadlands MMORPG.
Just the mustache customization alone.. Oh the possibilities.
One of these days I am going to get off my behind and finish putting down all of my ideas from my experience in MMO's/RPG's/FPS games and do a kinda work sheet on what elements a MMO is going to need. Then sell it. Because I know I don't have the ability to build it myself.
But back to topic.....One of my biggest things about current MMO's is that the community is way too big. You don't know, or get to know anyone. In the early days Meridian59 had like 300 people on a server at it's peak. When you logged on and said hello in the OOC channel, people responded, and you have played with most of them for a long time.
So I am wondering....with the wild west theme, can we have player built towns seperated enough that it actually took a lot of effort to get from one town to the next. This would build small communities. These communities would most likely help eachother build up the town to defend it from outlaws, indians, etc...
This was the best column done in *years* at MMORPG.com - well thought out and it presented a concept that could be gold if the right developer picked it up.
Thanks for renewing my faith Dana!
Man, it's funny how people come up with the same ideas. This is posted from a file on my HD titled "Wild West MMO" that I was kicking around ideas for a couple years ago:
Wild West MMO
Tycoon class, not much for combat, but the only ones who can run guilds, build financial empires, etc.
Gunfighter/Thug/Whatever, the ones who battle it out for resourses/rights/etc. on behalf of the Tycoons. Paid a salary when employed.
Lawmen, stop the thugs, mess with Tycoons, etc. Bounty Hunter would be a subclass
Skinner/Mountain man, resource gatherer with combat ability
Doc, medic with combat ability
Miner, resource gatherer with combat ability
Railroads take you between servers, and are player created and owned (AI operated). Require lots of resources to build, and a partner on the other end.
Stagecoach lines travel between zones, and are player created and owned (AI operated).
I have always thought a game like this would work very well. The way it has been laid out in the article is extremeley well done, and has possibility.
Sandbox with the ability to fight in town to an extent. Like the ability t play cards as a mini game in a saloon with other players, and you catch a racally varmint cheating you could shoot him at the table, or go outside for a duel in the street. If you shoot a guy at the table you have to get out of town because you have a timer where AI Law enforcment is comming for you, as well as law type / abiding players..
Very well thought out and written article.
And again, I cant stress this enough.. the mustache customization.. nuff said.
This line right here might get you in trouble with the Chinese...didn't they get forced to build most of the railroads back then? So far we run the risk of upsetting three "minorities" and thats before we even discuss Mexico.
This line right here might get you in trouble with the Chinese...didn't they get forced to build most of the railroads back then? So far we run the risk of upsetting three "minorities" and thats before we even discuss Mexico.
I think it's a non-issue if you're collecting resources, then turning it in to some kind of claims office or whatever. It's not like you have to put little guys in game building the thing. Even if you wanted to do that, who says you can't make everything a mixture of races and sexes? Frankly, I think a game inspired by history would do better and have more license for creativity than a historical recreation game.
All of these ideas kinda sound like an Eve Online setup with avatars in the old west. Pretty intriguing. A pity forum posters would have a hard time raising capital, putting a team together, and making this game. It would be a fun one.
Progression would be the reputation of your Char, the NPCs would start to offer you bigger and better jobs or contracts.
Classes? No need for classes. Skills would be the way to go. Off the top of my head skill list.
Horse riding
Duel pistols
Rifles
Shotguns
reload - pistols
reload - rifles
reload - shotugns
accuracy - pistols
accuracy - rifles
accuracy - shotguns
speed draw - pistols
speed draw - rilfes
Med wounds - healer type - heal gun shot wounds
gunsmith
ammo smith
leathersmith - saddles, bags, ect
Whiskey making
Drinking
Leadership
Short list off the top of my head
Still with the stuff you mentioned how would put together a strategic raid without it just being shoot it or in pvp raids ... people just shoot each other .. with no healing crowd control strategy would be out the window .. it would be just a big shoot em up .... I don't see how far that could go.
I would play a Wildwest MMO, but only if it was set in the historical real Wild West.
Heck, if you wanted to you could even allow perma death, with your new character using the same last name (kinda like TR) and retaining your possessions. That certainly would make the feel of the game interesting, but I don't know if enough people would go for it. Maybe eventually, people would ban together to gun down the "mad dog" types and civilization would start to come to the West.
Man, I'm totally wishing I was playing this game right now :)
not sure if anyone put this link up but this would be almost like the wild west
http://frontier1859.com/mmorpg/
I have been thinking about a morg like this for a while. I would definitely play and I think there a bunch of spaghetti western fans out there who might jump into the market to try a game like this. My idea kind of went in the direction of skill trees the way classic swg was made. A western morg would do well with a politiican class, doctor, crafter class like black smith, Inidan warrior, cowboy, law enforcement, bounty hunter, thief, union or confederate soldier, etc. I would not recommend a fps model. Lots of adventures could occur in pve out in the wild or in town. Ideally the game should require player interaction to a large degree, now that would be fun!
Going off what I've seen of most Indie MMOs I would make a guess and say that either that game will remain in developement for another 10 years, or it will have some uber failure out the box like Darkfall. I like the idea, but come on, few Indie studios have been able to get a decent product out the door for the last few years. It either fails or never makes it out at all. I mean look at that huge ass investor link, lol. That screams "We need money"
As someone already mentioned....Tombstone.
Dude, I would kill to be Val Kilmers character. Doc Holiday I believe? He was so cool he made his sickness look almost cool. What a great setting!
Beau
Yeah, that was his best role, IMO. Dennis Quaid was great in the same role in Wyatt Earp that year. I still laugh when I think of him telling Big Nose Kate to "kiss my rebel d**k".
PotBS may not be pulling down WoW numbers, but it is a successful product with a loyal and profitable userbase.
Just because games don't hit 10 million doesn't mean they failed. By pre-WoW standards, Pirates would be considered a mild success.
Well Tabula Rasa wasn't pulling down WoW numbers either but you could argue that it had a loyal userbase. TR didn't fail because of the fans, it failed because NCSoft said it failed. I can't comment on it's profitability but on that note, I don't think any MMO can be considered profitable except for WoW. SWG is not pulling any WoW numbers either but again, it has a loyal userbase. Lets not forget, EQ2, AoC, AO, AC.....all of the F2P games....
Anyway, my point is simply that although it would garnish loyal fans, as several posts in this thread show, it will be just as popular as PotBS, SWG and all of the other niche MMO's. Again, as I already stated in my original post. To be honest, I envision Darkfall but with a Western Theme.....
There is one in development or something -- http://frontier1859.com/
I have no idea on its progress or whatnot..think whoever it is needs an investor.
The lack of an MMO based around Cowboys&Indians in the USA is mindblowing.
I am curious as to why no one has mentioned there already is a Wild West MMO(alabeit with a fantasy twist added but a Wild West MMO none the less) called Sword of the New World. It takes place during the founding of the US and allows you to play up to 3 characters simultainiously.
Actually PotBS was more popular than it is and would have been a much bigger success if not for some really bad dev decisions. They messed up in more ways than can be quickly explained, which is a commentary on bad/inexperienced dev teams and not the viability of a historical setting overall.
I think a fantasy-influenced setting like Deadlands is certainly the most likely for the simple reasons that it completely avoids *ALL* the politically correct BS and realism issues a more historical setting brings with it while at the same time offering more character diversity and a way to *not* be permanently dead and gone when you lose that shoot out.
As much as I personally love the idea of permadeath in an MMO, it would *never* be included by a major studio in todays market.
(And no one has mentioned Sword of the New World because every review I have ever read of it pans it horribly as a terrible asian-knock off with bad graphics, horrible story and gameplay)
I like a lot of the ideas. I don't agree with Dana that we should leave out Native Americans. There are actually a lot of Native Americans that would be interested in playing the game.
The game world would have to be massive. As others have said a massive sandbox. If people wished to play native american and learn more about the culture I think it would be great. Buffalo hunts, crafting your teepee, using all parts of your kill to craft things. At the same time it would be cool to take a wagon train from St. Louis out west, everyone working together to make it a successful trip.
A wild west mmo has huge potiential. Especially for a sandbox. Gamblers, Trappers, horse rustlers, cattle, salons.. its just endless.
I think the racial issues and being a uniquely American experience would severely limit the marketability of a true Wild West game. It would have to be some contrived setting that mirrored the time period without the tricky un-PC aspects.
I am suprised noone has mentioned the Trigun anime series as an example.
Drev
Native Americans could easily be included. When creating a character one could choose the culture ancestory they wish to be from including European and Native American. There are no stat benefits to either culture or benefits particular to each per se. Every player can do whatever every other player could do regardless of cultural ancestory. The only difference between the cultures is what skills you start out with and probably your starting area. So a Native American might have archery while a European might have revolvers.
Conflict wouldn't spawn based on a "Cowboy vs Indian" mentality but rather be more organic and less boxed in than that. Since guilds always form in mmos it'd make more sense to have conflic based on guild lines rather than blood lines. Generally, any player could join any guild that invited them.
Perhaps guilds could have different benefits depending on the fame or infamy of their guild. Someone mentioned earlier about Outlaw Guilds who wander around the west doing outlaw things and Calvalry Guilds who help uphold law. An outlaw guild would have more specialization towards things such as robbery and survival in the elements. A guild with better fame could ally themselves with the government and recieve benefits such as easier access to weapons and the like. Guilds allied to the government wouldn't be able to attack other guilds allied to the government unless they retract their benefits from the government and tarnish their reputation.
There could be different factions one could ally themselves with, American Federal Government, Mexican Government, Native Tribes, Outlaw (which wouldn't be a faction per se, I think outlaws should be able to attack other outlaws as well), and Neutral.
Again, conflict wouldn't happen based on an 'us vs them' or Mexico vs America but instead on how guilds manage their connections to other guilds and vie for resources and land holdings throughout the west. The allignment would only allow certain benefits particular to those organizations.
I would love to see a guild that rises up similar to the Pinkertons.
Will there be a fat mexican with a double barrel shotgun as a character?
i personally don't think that MMOFPS would fit... what about a 3rd person shooter like GTA/red dead revolver/The godfather (the game) ? that would make customization useful
No offense Qombi, but I really think this is why so many games fail. You just basically said this game wouldn't work because it isn't going to be EQ with dirt, or WoW with guns. When every developer runs down the same sad lines of class "tank", "dps", "heal", etc. then all of the games start to look exactly alike. Why play anything other than 1-2 that have the best polish? They're all the same with some different window dressing.
For this setting you don't need classes. You combat skills are as you put it, mostly FPS. However, you can change things like faster mouse tracking while aiming (as a skill), more damage done, less effect from recoil, more zoom when aiming, things like that. True your FPS skills will play a large role, but your characters skills will asssist (or hinder) your FPS abilities.
If you have accurate hit modeling, then your group tactics are as rich and varried as they were in the time period. Flanking, cover, things of that nature. For a good example of how those elements can be incorporated into a game setting look at Tom Clancy's Rainbow 6 serries. There was plenty of group strategy in that game without the stupid concepts of Tanks and DPS.
I would love to see something like this, or if Steve Jackson can be convinced that Car Wars would make a great game... well then I'd send him my money now. The genre can use some good diversity to give people alternatives to what is currently out there. Unfortunately, due to the expense and overwhelming success of WoW, it's unlikely we'll see that from many of the mainstream developers until more of the WoW clones fail.
MMOs don't have to be about grind, levels, and gear. That's what current games are doing and there is really only room for a few well done versions of that model. How many EQ and WoW clones do you really want to play in the long run?
Definitely skill-based. Low-instancing, too.
In addition to other ways, skill points could be given for time logged in. Or like the CoX new Day Jobs, for time logged out in specific areas. Maybe some sort of exchange ratio for general experience and specialties. Like 10 doctor points could be exchanged for 5 general experience points that could then be used for running speed.
Don't know how "shake" works, but I'm thinking of cross hairs for shooting. The more accuracy points you have, the tighter they get and the more sure you are of where your shot is going to hit. Or you're able to use a finer scalpel as a doctor. Or your lariats land around your target more.
Make it mostly open PvP, but some towns could be non-PvP zones. There could be varying degrees of lawless-ness. Some towns you could do whatever you want and nobody would care. Others, you might find the NPCs turn hostile (shopkeepers won't do business with you). Some, the sheriff comes after you by himself or recruits a posse to hunt you down. The degree of your offense raises the bounty on your head and increases the number of towns where your wanted poster appears.
Guilds could be towns, ranches, or outlaw gangs.
For mounts you'd have horses; horse-drawn buggies, carts, and wagons, stage coaches and trains wouldn't be mounts but maybe ways to travel longer distances in a shorter time. If you had a horse, it could be tied to the back of the stage coach or loaded into a stock car so you could have it at your destination.
One possible way around the Native American problem would be to go with an Old West-inspired track. Let it have the flavor, but not be historically precise or accurate. It's just a game after all. Make two fake tribes, one more friendly to the frontier people and one more hostile. Have diplomacy a skill track. That way, you don't have to worry as much as historical detail of specific tribes. But that could be just as offensive. What do y'all think?
The online FPS system would work but my guess then is the MMO part will be the minor one, like customizing your character or having huge land to explore. I would certainly play an Outlaws online but the question is: for how long?
i would love to play a wild west MMO!! would be nice if you had a crafting side, you can open up a shop in town or a saloon!
wild west mmo sounds boring as hell. make a Firefly MMO, so wild west/scifi & I'm on board.
Honestly, I would not want to play an Wild West MMO. It does not interest me, at least not in the traditional sense of Wild West. If they could put a fantasy twist on it (like the Dark Tower) I would most definitely play it. But choosing between cowboys or indians doesn't sound like fun to me. Sorry, just my opinion.
Some random loose thoughts about needs for a Western MMO for me.
And more... Basicly my Western MMO would be hard to make..and it wouldnt be a "solo" game, as you would depend on other people in every step. Be it as buying their goods, their maps, getting healed, eating their food or even their company. It wouldnt be a free ride for the combat wombat people(And I'm one of them!).
wow, a lot could be done with a wild west mmo. Take classes, not everyone in the "wild west" was wild, you have shop keepers, miners, farmers, upcoming medical men, witch doctors, natives and explorers from "out of town" sorta speak. Then the outlaws, the lawmen, the statesmen, those who would shoot you just cause and those who wanted and fought for a "civil" frontier and expaning the "union", which brings us to soliders. Just would be so much to do, hope someone can take it on.
I thought I was one of the only people who had thought a Wild West MMO would be a great idea. I went on a rampage about three months ago- Carving through the internet like a fiend trying to find a wild west MMO.
Someone already posted the thing, but this is worth looking into. (called "The West")
Maybe a development company will one day pick up the idea and run with it. Too many MMOs nowadays are just copies of the last one. (IE WoW format), and while they new stories and graphics are refreshing.. it's time for a new setting all together IMO. Let's try for something new. Science Fiction is nice, i'm always up for it and it hasn't been used to death. Fantasy needs a break though, before we break her legs from so much use. But history would be awesome. Playing in the old Wild West or during prehistory.
Maybe playing as the first tribal humans or something.
Either way, I hope discussions like this inspire some developer out there.
I'd be a Cattle Baron...and drive all the squatters off my land. Don't get me started on those damn sheep farmers and free grazers.... I don't think most of the Chinese were forced to build railroads...but there were so few jobs offered to them...they themselves were "railroaded" into those jobs. However..once in..it was hard for them to leave...and since it was none to pleasant to work for the railroads....it was pretty miserable and just short of slavery.
Sounds like a very interesting concept. One thing that I think would be utterly necessary to keep the rampant slaughter down to a more realistic level would be consequences. Again, though, keeping with the theme. If you developed a reputation as a real bad guy, then there would soon be lawmen after you as well as bounty hunters. If you mananged to elude/kill off your pursuers, your bad guy rep would grow, and larger packs would start coming after you.
You could make it so mutually agreed upon duels had no effect on your "karma" rep, but ganking (ie murdering) would definitely peg you as a criminal. Perhaps wanted posters with your name on it might start appearing, including bounty offers.
I'm not sure how you'd handle death as a player-criminal though. It'd have to be severe enough to make the player really want to avoid capture, but maybe not so severe that no one would do it. Perhaps some jail time, a heavy fine?
Anyway, love the idea. As long as the pvp aspect wasn't heavily favoring the best net connection, I'd try it.
LOL, Reading many posts in this thread really is funny. The majority are Hard Core MMO players craving the World Sim experiance. By the nature of being historical and un-proven genera makes this a nich game much like the pirate games that have come. Slap on top of that the World Sim architech and you have another "job" and not a game. This is a really hard sell to a big company as a game. I could see SOE package it with all the other games of thier Station Pass but is still a hard sell.
What would be a positive selling feature or point to a MMO like this? It could be very popular with Asian markets as they seem to have faires and conventions around Wild West America like the U.S. has Renissance Fairs. There is a market but is it profitable?
Dana, your reputaion system sounds much like SWG's former FRS or the Current GCW system. WOW finally abandoned such a rank system (As I understand) as it proved very unpopular. Is there another method of experiance/advancement that would work?
ADDITIONAL:
When I talked to the devs on Pirates of the Burning Sea at last years SOE Fan Faire, I got a little info on the direction they wanted to take the game. As they indicated, the pirate genera was a bit limited for a strictly historical MMO and they wanted to expand the game with Mythical Sea Creatures in its future. Do you see this direction as a possible expansion of the Wild West MMO?
Think it's a wonderful idea, an open sandbox in a historcial wild west setting. I can imagine it being huge, but it would have to be skill based and not "classes" as this is a poor system in my eyes. Skill based systems are great. I play the roman historical MMO roma victor at the moment which is great, despite still having lots of content missing. Another historical game would be a hit.
Westerns are like Star Trek games. Star Trek The Next Generation was successful due to the interesting characters and the types of plots episodes had (often about conflicting philosophies.)
Conversely, 95% of Star Trek games in the TNG time period are just about combat. And some of them were damn fun. But few of them were actually successful for the same reasons the series itself was successful.
So while I enjoy both Star Trek and Deadwood, the things that makes each series great *aren't* easily replicable in videogame format. Inevitably the thing that makes the western a western will be lost in translation to a game -- so you get games like the browser MMO linked earlier in the thread where my character's first 10 minutes was dominated by harvesting Tobacco and scaring away Crows (neither of which was a major activity in *any* western I've ever watched.)
I dont know why PotBs keeps coming up in this thread. Pirates of the Burning Sea is a horrible game that is instance after instance after instance....and the combat is well, the most boring combat i have ever tried in a mmorpg.
Anywayz, We need to keep this thread bumped due to it being the absolute best thread ever on mmorpg.com
I would definitley play a Wild West MMO. However there are some discrepancies over the Myth and Reality of the Wild West. Here is an excerpt from an article written about it:
The lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over. Dime novels written in the East in the latter part of the 19th century exaggerated, or simply made up, stories about the crimes and criminals of the West. Hollywood later perpetuated the myth, feeding the public’s desire for excitement and adventure with stories of gunfights in the street and stagecoach robberies. The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison. Because of the need to hunt for food or protect themselves from wild animals, many people did have guns. However, fans of Hollywood westerns may be surprised to learn that many western towns had strict gun ordinances, making it illegal to carry guns in town. People entering the town were required to surrender their firearms to the sheriff. In fact, a story that has come to epitomize the violence of the Wild West involved a conflict over such a law. When Virgil Earp, along with his brothers Morgan and Wyatt and their friend Doc Holliday, confronted five cowboys in the city of Tombstone over carrying firearms in town, violence erupted. This incident became know as the gunfight at the OK corral. Yet it’s interesting to note that even in this most famous gunfight of the violent West, only three people were killed. In any modern city today, such a minor incident would probably not even be front page news.
So, was there violence in the mountains, plains, and frontier towns of the old west? Absolutely. Yet, as with any wilderness, a man was just as likely, if not more likely, to die from thirst, starvation, drowning, freezing, snakebite, falling off a mountain, falling off his horse, being attacked by animals, or any one of a hundred other things. Most of the settlers moving west, whether they were farmers, cowboys, miners, or some other profession, were honest and hardworking. Just as today, outlaws existed, yet in most places and for most people, violent crime was not the daily norm that popular entertainment would have us believe. As unromantic as it may be, relatively few people in the Wild West were involved in the gunfights and stagecoach robberies immortalized in the movies.
Furthermore, rarely did "Cowboys" even wear gun belts, they would normally keep them concealed somewhere on their body. ie. tucked in the waistline of their pants etc.. covered up by a coat.
Sorry for the novel above. So in reality a historical wild west mmo would probably be boring as hell but a hollywoodized version of the same mmo would be more along the lines of what people are looking for.
link to article http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html
also here is another link to another wild west game online.
http://www.wildwestonline.com/
I would play this game as much as i could and if I could I might help make it but im only 15 so very good idea and hope to see it on the best buy shelf someday!
I know a wild west type mmo would work... but how bout making it something like "Firefly online" that space/western mmo would totally work... I dream of riverboats and steam boats... bar room brawls.. miners strikin gold in them their hills and crawlin in my jet/horse and goin to town :) cross breed space and western it would work for sure !!!!! IMO Kwosh
What you discribed, in a certain point of views, sounds like Eve Online. Reputation is one of the key features little promoted outside Eve itself. Gear is somewhat limited by your skill, but unlike other MMOs you can learn every skill in the game. Other the Eve's skill system, you have your Wild Wild West MMO.
I think what you described in your artilce may work and be fun, but who has the balls to make such a game? I for the life of me can't figure out why Developers won't make such a game with a classless or level based system. SWG(pre-CU), for as much as this has been used as an example in the past, is right about being the only real and fun non-level based sandbox type game I've played, Eve coming in a big second.
Your system is wanted by so many people, why won't someone make such a game?
Thats what we are waiting for. Not just for a Wild West mmorpg but for many other different styles of GOOD non WoW style mmorpgs.
So if any DEVELOPERS are reading......You guys need to grow a pair......plain and simple.
Get off the cookie cutter band wagon and grow a pair.
Only offensive to the liberal players..
I posted earlier, about a "Firefly" type western/sci-fi... I would definatly try a western mmo.. i am currently playing Istaria: tales of the gifted and I really like this mmo... its older but it has lots to do in it building etc... in a western setting this would be great IMO :)
This is a wonderful artical on the Wild West as an MMO and what would be the trouble with it.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html
What has come before? Well, games that come to mind are:
Lucas Arts "Outlaws"
Activisions "Gun"
Those are good sources of what players want to capture in feel.
There is one that is trying to get off the ground that has a lot of promise I think. Its called Frontier 1859
If we can get some following for it, it might get popular enough to get some funding. I wrote MMORPG.com about it a long time ago, but not sure they ever got it.. or maybe they dont think it's worth the time?
Is it just me....or does the guy in the thumbnail for this article look like Davey Jones from "Pirates of the Carribbean" lol
If there are issues with the historical elements..then it could mix it up a bit. Like a more detailed larger mmo version of the "GUN" video game...or like the western/horror cross genre RPG "Deadlands"....or something similar like that video game...where you are a vampiric gunfighter or you're hunting a vampiric gunfighter..I can't remember the name...just remember it was pretty entertaining.
edit: "Darkwatch" was the name I forgot...a "Darkwatch" with mmo elements would be cool.
This one has been around for years and it does have tons of great ideas. I remember looking at thier site a few years ago.
The problem is they have no money!
AND thier 4 screenshots show nothing. After 5-10 years, you should have some nice screen shots which they dont. hard to get investors to invest without some sort of foundation in this field of online gaming.
This in fact makes me believe that ALL they have is an IDEA. The same IDEAS we have about a mmorpg set in the wild west.
I'd love to see a wild west MMO, or some variation based on that theme. Someone mentioned "Firefly" earlier and that would be a blast. Even better would be Steven King's "Dark Tower" series - now THAT would make for a fun game world, with wild west elements.
I personally like skill based but a wild west mmorpg could do extremely well with a class based system.
If you were the developer and had to design 12 classes to start with, what would they be?
I like this idea of an Wild West MMO. I've wanted one for years, and always wondered why nobody ever made one.
Call the western mmo Bounty of War (BoW) and add in bounty hunter system that has ranks like that of WoW ranks. You could have a warrant office with the list of people on the server that kill people that are 10 lvls below them and do the most kills being the most wanted and highest payoff with a warrant scroll you have to buy . also have gangs as one faction and posse's as other faction. also have compounds owned by the gangs or posse's that have a time on when they can get attacked similar to that of shadowbane player cities without the bane stone :) and and and and...
I think some good classes would be Bounty hunter/ Tracker / Outlaw / Mountaineer / Law enforcer(dependant on rank would make him deputy, sheriff etc) / Comanchee(warrior,chief dependant on rank0 and finally ninjas because they where during that time period and maybe a counter to ninja the all might warrior samurai. Also you would have professions for each class like bowsman,rifleman,gun slinger,sharpshooter, and i forgot what they called hand to hand people back then, etc
It should have player cities (saloons, hotels, general stores, private banks, livery stations) - mining towns - boom towns - that naturally spawn and grow while the commodity (gold, silver...) is still around to be mined - could be 6 months, a year or longer.
I'd love to see a game based on the Wild West, but I'd like to suggest that you might want to develope two different directions for the game, one based on historical precident, and the other based on fantasy. In the historical version, you would get the hard core realism of living in Deadwood or Tombstone or one of the other historical locations, going up against gunslingers, wild indians, and the usual run of the mill bad guys.
The other version would feature all the fantastical things that are so beloved of people, the zombies, magic slinging indian shaman, lost worlds of dinosaurs, and what have you. This version would feature all the historical accuracy (sorta) of the first version, but on steroids, you might say.
Were the famous gunslingers of old driven to their excesses of violence by the lawlessness of the land or was it something else, some terrible wendigo type curse or a demonic possession? Was witchcraft the true reason behind the relationship between Big Nose Kate and Doc Holiday? Did the Ghost Dance have a chance of success?
There is a rich fantastic history behind the true history of the old west. Not using it would be a terrible waste of potential gaming dramatics.
Read the post of a possible Wild West Game. Certainly agree that it would be a new and interesting product. However, the first thing that hit me was the open statement it had to be an FPS and free for all PvP. EVE has that, its own niche audience and does ok I'm sure. But it will never attract a mass audience. Especially noteworthy in the gentleman's description of loners being prey means a game that will lose new players very fast. (Check EVE stats for new player problems and losses).
There was a Wild West game PnP callrd "Deadlands" out for several years, owned now by the producers of "Savage Worlds" rpg games I believe. The premise was an alternate world western placed after a natural/supernatural disaster. It is great fun and includes everything you might want in an MMORPG. Be a wonderful base for an on-line game.
However here is the rub. If it is a FPS (First Person Shooter) and PvP oriented game I wouldn.t bother with it. Not to rub salt in the angry PvP wounds but why do you think WOW owns the on-line game industry? It is because they (mostly) allow an individual to become great and powerful and have fun (grinding/raids/arenas/Pvp options/groups etc. are integrated and about 15 million people like it, myself included). Pattern the western MMO after the business and demographics of WOW and you could have a pretty significant game.
Mr. Massey has a good idea and the overwhelming quantity of fantasy games and still not well done sci-fi games leaves wildwest gaming an attractive option. For many years westerns have held the imagination and interest of a large section of the world's entertainment, not simply the USA. A successful MMO needs a large and generally stable population of players that will financially support the long term existance of the company. Those players are like myself, not particularly interested in PvP or FPS, just relaxing and having fun. We stay and play and pay and, like in WOW, support the wilder and usually younger gameboy and x-box killmeisters. There is no reason not to make us both happy.
I am old, Mr. Massey, and my hand-eye reflexes are not what they used to be. Please consider that the millions who are more physically and mentally attuned to WOW type play can be a great financial asset to a game that includes, not excludes, our type of fun. Together we could support a great western themed game with a wide player base.
In conclusion I happily support Mr. Massey's suggestion in general if not in a particular form. I am a former PNP game designer for TSR and Pacesetter Games. I am now an enthusiatic on-line gamer. I thank you folks for reading. I always carry a High Flame Resistance. Garry Spiegle
I think of the HBO series 'Deadwood' and movies such as 'Young Guns' and 'Tombstone' and could see some potential in a Wild West MMO.
I also think of historically great shows from my childhood like Gunsmoke, the Rifleman, Have Gun-Will Travel/Palidan, the Lone Ranger, etc.,...
I look at somewhat recent media/movie successes like 'Wild Wild West'... the shows were better than the movies, tbh.
On top of such things, you can always look at history to base the game from, loosely. I know that doing this may be fairly harmful, however, to the Native Americans. I would think a game of this genre and from this timeframe may need to be mindful of references to 'Indians' and such.
One thing is for sure, you could do some things with 'expansions' and bring in Eastern culture... Japan, China, etc.,..
I would love to see another option in the mix. Something other than Ogres, Orcs, Trolls, Gnomes, Elf, etc.,...
The idea is very appealing, especially if the game could be played in different time periods. There is quite a bit of interesting; history, wars, and american civilization developmet that took place in the 1800s to craft a soild storyline.
I think the game would have to be purely based on historical events, weapons, and places or purely fiction with exciting new stories, places, similer culture, and of course low tech weapons. Otherwise historical buffs might criticize its historical accuracy and realism.
Oregon trail, now thats a classic i grew up on.
`Rider
This.
I think it is very popular, particularly on these forums, to talk of love of PvP and FFA and so forth, but I don't think this type of server would draw the masses in, or at the least, it would not keep most in. Have a server dedicated to that if you like, to cater to those that prefer that style, but I think the majority of players are as Garry described, wanting to just relax and play.
What I would like to see is some sort of game based loosely on the TV show (and one movie) Firefly which was a western sci-fi show (and a really good one at that). Devs could have a lot of fun with this concept....
I agree....this would be an excellent mmo project. Some of the planets were very high tech sci-fi..and some were very lo-tech with heavy wild-west elements. I can't see any company spending money on this game though. The series got screwed hard and canceled early ...despite its excellence...and "Serenity" completely rocked....but because the network had no faith initially...it will be hard pressed to find financing. Imo.
I have been working with a team to develop just this type of MMO game. I will set it up for you.
The game would take place in or around the 1860's. The south western territories would be separated into 3 nations. Each nation would be controlled by a military force. The North, South and Mexican forces. Each territory would have multiple regions. Each region would have a capital city. There would be multiple towns, camps, forts and garrisons through out each region.
The military aspect would be used to control regions in PVP type battles.
The careers would be broken out as follows.
Military
Professions
Calvary: horse skills, saber skills, pistol skills
Infantry: Rifle skills, military formations, tactics
Artillery: grenadiers, cannons, and skills for attacking forts
Cowboy's
Professions
Bounty hunter: pistol, rifle, tracking
Gunslinger: Dual pistols, Cover, dodge type skills
Tracker/trapper:Stealth, knife, pistol, traps, medical
Indians
We are working on these professions. Keep in mind that Indians will be part of each nation just like Cowboys. They would have skills that include Stealth, archery, tomahawks, knives, tracking and hunting bonuses. Indians will also be used for NPC missions.
Merchant
Professions
Miner
General Merchant
Weapon smith
Black smith
Stables Master
We have also been discussing the ability to have bonus for which race you would play. Indian, Mexican, American.
Each town would have regional vendors (auctioneer) for each merchant skills. These would be store fronts just like you would find in a western town of the day.
Missions: The missions would be similar to most MMO games. NPC missions within the region.
PVP: would be set up to allow any profession to aid in capturing other nations regions by taking over outpost, garrisons and finally the capital fort. Each of these will be defended or attacked with the use of artillery seize equipment and other fun things.
Player housing: Players would have access to there own rooms. These rooms would be located in any towns saloon or hotel. You would simply just open the door and an instance would bring you to your room where personal equipment may be stored.
Saloons would have real card tables which would allow betting to be done with other players. Just like a online card table game. Don't forget the trashy working professional women. hehe
You will be able to duel other players and partake in bar brawls with your bare fist.
Bounty's could be placed on players.
Crafting will be well developed with skill trees that would allow upgrades to weapons and gear.
Experimental weapons could also be crafted (think of the TV show wild wild west)
Travel between regions would be done with stage coach or trains. buy a ticket and see the stage coach driver or train conductor.
You would have to mine minerals , hunt animals ect. for crafting
These are just some of the things our team is working on to develop this game. We would love to work with a developer to take this to the next level. Please contact me.
MADMANusa
I would like to see this happen Mad.
Sounds nice, MAD. A Civil WAR expansion for it is almost a must :)
Don't forget muskets, they were still quite common unlless you have it very late (The difference between a rifle and a musket is that a muskets barrel are smooth bore, while rifels have "rifling" inside the barrel), rifles was used in the independence war already but sparsly since they are a lot more expensive and was used for a long time only by sharpshoters.
Not until the Winchester 1873 did rifles really start to take over...
A Wild West MMO is certainly a grand idea, esp if it breaks the level/class system and goes for something skill based and open/sandbox. The historical and mythical Wild West is such a rich source of ideas that is surprising that game and mmo makers have not been tapping into it more.
To get round the 'Indian problem' I would echo the calls to use Deadlands as inspiration. In this setting the Natives, Chinese, Blacks etc all have attained a level of parity with Whites simply due to the back-story of the game and the events that set up the setting.
Why Deadlands? Here some of the highlights:
1) Set in 1876 but the civil war grinds on due to something called the Reckoning which brought magic back to the world and gave the world the wonder fuel Ghostrock. It also dumped most of California into the ocean and created the Great Maze of canyons, mesas, ghost towns, all rich in Ghost Rock of course!
2) The Natives have their own countries, and tribes have Shamans with working magic- both good and evil. The Triads own San Fran; the Mormons control their own state of Desert. Due to shortage of manpower the South has outlawed Slavery.
3) Mad Science! The Reckoning has sparked a 2nd Industrial Revolution as Scientists race to create new Ghost Rock powered toys; there are ghost rock powered trains, cars, planes(ish), ships, replacement limbs, and all sorts of weird like Ray Guns....
4) Monsters! The Reckoning also awakened old Monsters like dragons from their slumber, while the Shamans and Scientists have created their own abominations. Also there are the Undead- die and there is a chance you are coming back as Harrowed- just ask Olde Abe...
5) Where there are Monsters there are those that fight them so there is the Agency and the Rangers who seek to keep the monsters at bay and keep the normal folk ignorant of the Reckoning. Wild West X-Files!
6) The Natives are not the only ones with magic - like poker? Then the Hucksters can cast spells using poker decks. If you are good with religion then you can be Blessed. Plus there are magic powered Martial Artists!
7) Killing Zombies with sixguns is fun!
8) The Great Rail Wars; the race to build the transcontinental railroad is split between 6 competitors who sabotage, destroy, and hamper each others efforts. Of course said lines then need protecting from the other Rail Barons forces, as well the monsters, bandits, annoyed spirits, undead etc...
9) There is a town called Gomorra where all the various factions hang out (for v. good motherlode related reasons). Its the perfect base town!
10) The original pnp game used poker mechanics. Skill checks involved drawing x cards and making the best poker hand possible with them to pass the check. It would be great to see something like that translated into an mmo.
Deadlands is the streampunk weird west... it would lift a Wild West game out of some of the historical problems while adding so many quest and plot options that hardly anyone would not find something to do!
Give me the Weird West!
A Deadlands MMO sounds like it'd be a really fun and interesting IP, but its pen and paper roots would probably most likely lead it to using turn-based RPG mechanics, which wouldn't feel right for a Western. I have guns, I want to aim and shoot them myself, damnit! If I'm gonna play a Western MMO, I'd want it to be a shooter like Call of Juarez or Red Dead Redemption. Mass Effect 2 is a good example of how RPG and shooter mechanics can go hand in hand.
Hi
New to the forums but am an avid MMO player. Mostly been playing Wow and recently STO.
I started playing Red Dead Redemption on 360 and instantly it got me thinking this could really work as an mmo. The fact that my wife was also saying whilst watching, I would really love to have lived in these times... She isnt a gamer yet I think an MMO game that allowed her to do the more basic non PvP things is a nice common ground.
My take is that Everyone new to the game arrives by boat. New frontier everyone coming to claim their land and follow the american dream.
They go through the tutorial and the starting introduction area these are your controls these are your options for employment, want to herd cattle? Sure. Want to play poker? Sure. Want to rob banks? Sure.
This area would be strictly non PvP. How do you do this? - Well I think every town has a policy on entering. like a border patrol into the city. When you are entering the city limits then you have to hand in your weapons - Its the law.
I was thinking one of the biggest limitations with world of warcraft is its server based approach. If you have a friend on another realm, how this works. Why are there all these different realms etc? How this world could be different - I think you break down the realms into states. Each of these states could have 100's of towns and citiies, I think there should be 1 large city in each state like a state capital, but then from there its all player created content, i.e. the players themselves with their friends from other games or who they met in this game, decide to create a town. (maybe players can create a town on their own but it takes a real long time, and costs a lot more having to Pay NPC's, where as players may agree to work for free kind of a you scratch my back I scratch yours.
So players and groups move to a new area. They have to build the town themselves. I don't just mean pay the money I mean actually building by building, there would be bonuses for having things in your town. Think SimCity, want to have less bar fights? Build a church, NPC's living in your town will be more content. Want your horses to run further faster for longer? Get them a blacksmith making horseshoes. Each of these business can be player run, or they can be NPC run, if they are run by a NPC then you have to pay them to make the items.
Towns have a mayor, like a guild leader, or they can have a council IE not one person in charge but a group of people, its up to them. These people can place job advertisements for roles that they are looking for via Telegrams. These go World Wide, players can then come and fill that role.
People can have multiple roles, the guy who owns the bar could also be the blacksmith, where there is a demand. Their jobs are only their professions, i.e. players wont be buying a game to "Just" be a blacksmith, thats just their job, if they choose to be part of a city.
Players could decide not to be part of a civilisation. I want to be a farmer away from all the town stuff, or I want to be an outlaw with my mates we form a posse and go shot stuff. I want to be a hunter go in the forest killing stuff.
There could be trains that run from one state to another. If one of your old friends you find out is playing they could come and visit you on the train come see how the town is getting on, how you have designed it, do you need a hand with anything. Is there anything that I can build that you havent learnt yet, is there a tool you need or a resource you need that I can harvest for you etc. Maybe 1 player decides I want to move to this town instead, no worries they put up an auction for their businesses and move on elsewhere with the cash.
Larger cities with like 500+ people could decide they want a bank to store their cash, earn interest, be more safe etc. This could they maybe attract unwanted criminals who want to rob the banks, so the city decide to bring in more muscle either controlled by NPC's or players. As the city is within a state which allows the prohibition of carrying arms in built up areas the city decide to restrict gun carrying. Another city in a very prosperous area however is not allowed to stop people from carrying arms therefore the threat of attack is always there.
I think its a brilliant idea, I think it could lend itself very well to so many different styles of games, and in that way could attract a hell of a lot of people, but I think by designing the world in an american esq state system server load could be based on seperate states.