GDC Panel: The Future of MMOs - Consoles?
While at the Game Developer's Conference, Jon Wood moderated a panel called "The Future of MMOs" populated by some of the biggest names in the MMO industry. Today, he presents his impressions of the panel's answer to the question of whether or not future developers will need to worry about both a PC and a console version of their games.
In this, the second part of the report on The Future of MMOs panel, I ask the gathered developers if consoles are the way of the future for MMOs, and whether or not future MMOs will have to be developed cross-platform in order to be successful.
As a reminder to the readers, the panel was made up of developers much more knowledgeable than I: Jack Emmert from Cryptic Studios, Matt Miller from NCsoft, Ray Muzyka from Bioware, Min Kim from Nexon and Rob Pardo from Blizzard.
The thought process behind this question, I felt, was fairly obvious. While up until now, it has been fairly easy to think about MMORPGs as a PC – only genre (they aren’t, games like Final Fantasy XI and Phantasy Star have been running on consoles for a while now), the upcoming launch of the PC version of Funcom’s Age of Conan and the pending Xbox 360 release of that same game, as well as SOE’s The Agency, are making more and more people question whether consoles will become the medium of choice for MMO developers.
I was a little bit surprised that all of the panelists seemed to agree in one way or another that consoles were going to play a large role in the future of MMOs. For the last few years, this has been a touchy subject for players and developers alike, and many people have many varied opinions. I have heard people complain about everything from a dumbing down of the genre to logistical concerns about updates through Xbox Live.
Still though, even if everyone on the panel seemed to agree that consoles would play a role, there was some variation over how that might happen:
Being on my left, Jack Emmert started the discussion by saying that yes, MMOs are moving toward consoles and that it isn’t surprising that we’re starting to see a migration, with Matt Miller agreeing. In the end, it’s a big audience that is playing on the consoles these days and that has the potential to grow and expand the current MMORPG player base.
Ray talked a little bit about how different the play styles are on PC and console, and he’s right. For years there has been a kind of rift between console players and PC players, and there I a good chance that it stems from the fact that the style of game play varies in a player’s choice of medium. He said that he felt that the PC and the console were two different markets and needed to be treated as such. In the end, Rob said that it’s all about knowing your audience, and that PC and console audiences tend to want different things.
Min Kim, the next of our panelists to speak, points out that the “mass market” for MMORPGs is probably still in the PC, but that not looking toward the console would be unwise. This, to me, is an interesting stance from Kim, and he makes a good point. He also mentioned the possible logistical problems of releasing Nexon games on the consoles, citing a desire to make sure that players have access to the free client. PCs currently support the business model, while it might be more difficult for the consoles.
This brings us, as does the end of every question, to the man at the end of the table, Rob Pardo of Blizzard. Rob points out the extreme penetration of personal computers versus their console counterparts. Rob, like a number of the others, also pointed out that developers should not only know their audience, but that they should choose the medium that will work best for their particular game, and that will maximize the fun for players. Rob also acknowledged one of the biggest complains that many people have when they hear about the idea of MMOs on the console: game mechanics. Many players feel that moving an MMORPG over to a console would hurt the gameplay and require a “dumbing down” of game features. Rob pointed out that the MMOs that we know today just work better on PC. That doesn’t preclude the possibility of a good MMO being made for the consoles, but as it is right now, MMOs have been designed for the PC.
I wasn’t entirely sure what I was going to get when I asked the guys this question, but I know that it is a growing concern for anyone considering developing an MMORPG. Personally, I think the industry is at an interesting crossroads, as the first set of high profile MMOs move toward console releases. Fortunately for me, as a reporter, I have the luxury of sitting back and letting time tell the story on console MMOs. Am I sold on the idea? Not yet… but I could be.
I find this good. As long I am able to play on Xbox Live with other people, then on certain games (like AoC), I would wrather play it on console (although usually I am a PC person.).
The one bad thing with consoles is that you attract a different kind of crowd. I'm sure, for example, that AoC will have more mature people playing on PC than on the Xbox version (since much younger people have Xbox Live).
Persoanally, I like to have an option between PC and console, so I can look into both of them and see whhich I would wrather play on.
Is it easier for devs to make games on consoles? I agree with Rob, that putting games on console, and especially for MMOs, that it will dumb down an MMO way too much then we already have now. The only reason I can see devs wanting to dumb down a game so it can fit a console is so they can make more money with a mutliple medium. Unfortunate for us who like complex games like Old SWG and especially games like Eve, hell a consule version of WOW would introduce more and more mindless gameplay
Do you best to try and convince them to stay away from console, or at the very least, have them not mix the two medias.
Erm, this point of view really confuses me... Why would using a control pad and mics over Live (or whatever) to commicate be any 'dumber' then using a mouse/ keyboard and Vent? Does it effect lore? Plot? Characterisation? Difficulty or complexity level?
The answer is, of course, no.
Mass Effect, for example, is as complex, well made, immersive, and challenging as any of it's peers on the PC.
'Intelligent' content is not defined by the contoller or the machine, it is defined by the target audience.
As that target audience has changed, and will continue to change as machines like the Wii and games like Rock Band are putting consoles in the middle of the family, so will the type of games that are offered on them. A game like Spore being developed for the Wii is proof positive of this. APB and AoC (MMOs both) coming on the 360 is more. The fact that they have had WAR running on a 360 already should prove a lot to anyone who is questioning cross platforming as a realistic future in the MMORPG space.
The target audience for consoles has changed in the last 5 years or so, it's just some people here still base an outdated prejudice on what consoles represented before that change.
Not just that,but they could add keyboard / mouse for the systems. XBOX360 does have a USB port you know.I myself can't wait for when mmo's go on consoles. Playing on my 52 inch TV and sitting on my couch will make my day.
I cant wait till I can have the same game on both and being able to log on the same account from either my PC or my xbox. Lets face it if you have family members on the computer or TV you have another option. How cool would it be to just sit back in a recliner and play an mmo on ur tv??
I think the switch to consoles will be a good thing. I actually wish it already happened, and cannot wait for the first AAA MMO for consoles.
They way I think about it -
1. Performance - It's got to be loads easier to program a game that you know is going to be played on a single machine, a console, rather then something that is designed to work on nearly any conceivable PC variation. This will improve graphics and performance, decrease developer time and money.
2. Ease of access - Now, us MMO vets have no problem installing a PC game, patching it, etc. but I'd rather just be able to pop in a disc and go. You can do this on consoles.
3. - Gameplay - The big one. Obviously, with a console you don't have a full keyboard and mouse setup. Yes, you can use kb/mouse on some consoles already (360) but a MMO designed for use with the controller wouldn't be "dumbed down".
Simple controls doesn't equal simple game play. Someone else mentioned Mass Effect, easy controls, complex and exciting game play. Or any console shooter. No more or less complex then PC counterpart, the compexity and challenge come from the game play itself, not the control medium.
If anything, designed a MMO for console would create a game with a less cluttered and more user-friendly interface. The simpler control mechanics could be used to create a more challenging and action-packed game play experience. Look at Fighting games, relatively simple controls, nearly infinite complexity and strategy.
4. Third party - No need for third party software like Ventrillo or Teamspeak on consoles like 360, server hosting and support via xboxlive, all the built in communications and guild tools xbox live offers, etc.
5. Cost effectiveness - This would be the big one, the MMO developers would have to realize that people are already paying the 5.99 a month or whatever it is for the xboxlive service etc. so they'd have to offer the montly subscription to their game at a cheaper price. Then not only do you get access to your MMO, but all the features and games with xbox live at the same time. I know Microsoft would consider this a big win.
So yeah, personally I cannot wait.
Have to agree with you...the two audiences have different things they want from an MMO. As in the case of SWG....the "dumbing down" ...which was in poor taste and totally peed off most of their MMO players...turned the game from being a wonderful sandbox type of game into an "iconic" game..where few of the professions that people had worked on for literally some years............survived. I think they removed something like 34 professions..in order to accomodate "iconic" for the console.
THAT is what people are talking about....in case the rest of you don't get it. You don't pee off your current player base by ruining their characters or completely disabling their abilities to tthe point that they can't be played any more. People put alot of "work" and time into their characters trying to get them to be the "best" etc/
SOE should have..imho...fired every single one of those lamers who did that to SWG.....the gaming community has not forgotten that faux pas..to this day.
Keep the console players needs and wants separate from the MMO players needs and wants..and you will have happy gamers...
As for games that were large hits as standalone games....think Betheseda and Oblivion.....I have heard rumours that Betheseda has some cash and is thinking of making an MMO.
If they could pull that off....Oblivion ..online or some such...that would be a killer game...methinks. Hopefully the Devs of these larger well known games..keep these think tanks going...there has to be something for everyone out there...console gamer and MMO player alike...keep on trucking!
Cendharia
Ok for starters Rob didn't say that games on consoles would be "dumb down" and that he prefers MMO's on PC.
Second, Yes the console market would be great for more money, bigger publishing and bigger recognition to the MMO market and the matter of the fact is all games devs and publishers want that. Look at Mass effect and Bioshock, they both are brilliant examples of games on consoles that are complex and intelligent enough to still be put on a console.
Thirdly, the games you've quoted there are games specifically made for PC and that particular audience, so of course those games wouldn't do so well on console but newer MMO's can be just as good if not better.
So I believe as well as many other gamers here or around the world would agree that MMO's moving to the console gives better opportunities to more people to play and bigger communities which will increase the biggest demanding genre of this era the MMO.
P.S.
I totally agree with Vesavius's statement and it's about time people started opening their minds instead of being close minded.
Exactly.
In all truth, the vast majority of "casual" gamers play on the PC. Especially things like online games (Hearts, poker, etc.)
Even owning a console means you are a more serious gamer then most "casual" PC gamers.
Systems like the Wii and services like the Xbox Live Arcade are bringing more and more casual PC gamers to the console market.
PC players who make remarks like this kill me. People who play console games are no less intelligent than pc owners. I am an adult I have always owned console and a PC and I enjoy both. You dont need to dumb down anything for consoles the same thing will work as on a pc, a prime example is FFXI which runs well on all platforms. This kind of PC eltieism is going the way of the dinosaurs as gaming becomes more of a mainstream form of entertainment, step into the 2000's open your mind and quit stereotyping people.
Also to others who act like consoles have kids playing and pc's don't, wake up PC are as common in homes as tv's and microwaves and the children usually no more about them than the adults lol.
It has nothing to do with close-mindedness and everything to do with what we as long-time players have experienced over the years...as an example I have been playing online since 1995..so I have pretty much seen alot of whats happening.
Games are businesses.......and if they lean towards the console gamer and forget the rest of us..in order to cater to the console...then they are going to lose a large part of the already established community that plays MMO's ....my thing is that they should be careful where they tread. Far as I am concerned there is room for both kinds of gamers...and probably in the future...given the numbers in Wow and the console market...what will happen is the MMO genre as we know it today...may fail and disappear.
But as long as I ...personally am still gaming, I do prefer the company of other folks in the MMO market of today.
Those of us who..like me....have played a long time..are not necessarily "casual" either..so lay that stereotype aside.........I am on my game every day for long hours...because I can do that.
I pay good money and expect to be entertained for what I pay for.......and personally am not attracted to console ..period.
I play Oblvion..but that is on my PC, and ...the only thing that Oblivion lacks..is other people, for me.
Lets allow for both types of players..and some open discussion here, instead of the stereotyping etc...that has started in this thread.
Cend
I agree, you will only dumb down an mmo on the console. I think and I think the other poster thought that FFXI is considered a dumbed down game, compared to much more complex mmos. Some genres just don't mesh on the console like a Strategy Games. The keypad is too limiting. On consoles the game is also limited to the console to its specs which are usually lower then the PC. If history has shown anything, the life on a console for an MMO is short. For Example Phantasy Star Online. Sure they released many upgraded versions, but does anyone still play the original?
Its not PC elitism....think again..check my post on what happened to SWG....SOE was in a big ol rush to get into the console market with one of their games...so instead of creating for the console, they took an already established game with already established subscribers and destroyed upwards of 34 professions and disabling some character builds completely....in their rush to "iconic" for the console.
THAT is the industry example..and that is what we are talking about....
Cend
When MMO's hit consoles like they hit PC's it will change things.
That is a huge market, dumbed down games or not, and once the consolers get the addiction only us pc gamers understand it will move quickly.
And TBH it won't be that dumbed down, you have a kb hooked up usually so the potential for a pc-like game is there.
Shift happens.
Hopefully...they can find it in their souls to still create MMOs that are played online..from PCs. I personally won't be buying a console...my PC is convenient..and will remain that way.
But I agree with you...that the wave of the future will probably be overwhelmingly slanted toward the console players.
Long as us PC players aren't left in the dust..I'll be happy.
Cend
There was talk at the time of the NGE that it was designed for console but ultimatly it was dropped. SWG was found to be not console friendly and there were new units in development that surpassed the current models. Further, SWG had other problems that wouldnt allow it to convert to any console format avaible at the time. What the NGE was about was re-targeting its demographics to attract the then growing market that WOW had and has. They were tradeing 275k subs they had (and loosing) for the every coveted 1 million that was originally targeted at launch. In either case of Pre-CU or post NGE they failed to see the real problem with SWG.
At no time in its history (Pre-9, Pre-CU, CU, NGE or post Chapter 6) has SWG been bug free, stable, complete, polished or directed to the general acceptance of the common MMO market. It has always been a case that brand assoication was thought to overshadow any problems the game has to the common buyers. You want to blame the devs, but I say go to the head of the problem, the producers and market researchers. We who post here will always be viewed as a minority audiance of Hard Core Gamers who do not repesent Joe Consumer who they want playing thier game. Trouble is, who does Joe Consumer go to for information on a given game?
Consoles are the way of the future.
I like both PC and console games but why play a mmorpg on a PC when you can play the same game on console?
I dont need Vent or TS, I dont need X fire , I dont need to upgrade my graphx card or memory for the new release every six months, I dont have to worry about system requirements or buy/building a brand new Pc for the EXACT SAME BS MMORPG that comes out every year.
You say DUMB DOWN?????/ Just look at the mmorpg market today......
They are all pretty much dumbed down.
I can use a keyboard with my 360 just like I can use a xbox style controller on my PC.
I can get a larger variety of games for the console and most are more enjoyable.
Just my opinions, thats all......
I believe mmorpgs on consoles would be possible, but the game mechanics would be completly different. And such a game would have to be only and just for the console. If it would be PC and console it would suck as you simply cant combine such different play styles.
Personaly I dont like consoles as you still need a PC for other things and owning both costs a lot.
And on a PC you have a lot more free hands by which I mean installing new programs, upgrading hardware...
And, about the comment that XBox Live would make MMOs cheaper...dream on. Do you really think devs would make fees smaller just becouse you are allready paying Microsoft? Has anyone made anything cheaper becouse you are already paying your internet provider? Think a bit...
I can play multiple accounts on one PC at the same time, try that with a console.
Well, we certainly won't be seeing many MMO's on the consoles available to consumers today. Not going to happen. BTW the xbox version of Conan has no announced date, they are only saying it is probably 6 months down the road from the PC release.
Consoles need a mouse and keyboard to play a MMO, any game that claims it can be played with a controller alone is NOT a MMO. You also have to consider that a MMO takes lots of disk space and needs lots of room for updates, that will stress most of the existing console systems.
Primary reason why the MMO will remain on the PC for quite some time is graphics. Even my kids 4 year old PC has far better graphics capability than his xbox-360.
So, so much for your experts on having any clue what the future will bring. If you have stock in their companies I suggest you sell immediately, they don't seem to have much foresight. The last thing anyone wants is a dumbed down MMO that is mainly for consoles. Any such game will flop big time.
In literal sense, the future of MMOs will be consoles. Whether we like it or not, more developers would want to reach larger audiences and they are aiming at the console market now. So it is the future.
But does the future of MMOs lies with consoles?
That being said, I see good and bad about such future.
First, most players who play console games are ones who play action games, and this includes the FPS games as well. So in order to reach these gamers, developers would have to make their MMOs more and more fast-paced to match the expectation of the console gamers. Unless the console gamers would change to fit the speed of the MMO games (a more slower feel, not necessary less action). This has yet to be seen to see the result from the focus on consoles.
I do see good in the sense that by allowing MMO to be more accessible to gamers of all genre, it could help push MMOs into another new height, and better development. Also, by focusing the console as the medium, the game would have to design to fit the existing systems, which means players do not need high-end hardware that needs to constantly upgrading to run next-gen. games.
So, I am waiting to see what will come of it.
Plus you can keep telling me till you are blue in the face that things need to be dumbrd down for console owners but what none of you admit is alot of people playing these console are pc players also, so quit with the generalizing!
PC " You need a mouse and keyboard to play RTS "
Console " Why they made the game to work on a controller "
PC " Well it works better on a mouse and keyboard everyone knows that "
Console " Why does it matter when everyone is on the same medium "
PC " Ummm ummm can't play MMORPG's on console's it will be dumbed down without a keyboard and mouse "
Console " Why you can make hotkeys on controllers just like other RPG's "
PC " Well everything is just better on a PC "
Console " I'm sorry you were basing your e-peen on a mouse and keyboard "
thanks for the chuckle, you just summed it all up very neatly and with some great humor!
I thought you would like that . That part that's funny is how alot of good games are being ported to the PC from the console. Not the other way around. And how the fallacy of " Well if the make both it will effect the PC because they have to Dumb it down on the console, which takes time away from developing from the PC "
Awesome logic. Lets see how many MMO's can you name that have flopped in the last year that were made only for the PC. Quite a few eh ? So it would seems a game is gonna flop if its bad no matter what hardware it is on.
The snap out HD for the 360 provides plenty of of storage if you need it.
An MMO is not defined by the control device.
As I have said elsewhere, the intelligence or complexity of content is not defined by the platform, it is defined by the target audience. With the changing of perceptions of what a console, such as the 360, is that target audience is changing. This is no longer the domain of 13-19 old boys playing beat em ups and racing games.
WAR, an MMO, has been seen to run on a 360, played on a joypad.
AoC, an MMO, has only been slowed for console release so they can configure the UI to a joypad set up.
APB, an MMO, is set to take the market by storm, played on a joypad.
FF, an MMO, has been running for a while now, played on a joypad.
Phantasy Star Online, an MMO, the same, played on a joypad.
As for the graphics, you must surely be kidding me... but based on the wild inaccuracies of the rest of your post forgive me if I doubt your opinion or take you seriously.
Foresight? You don't seem to know whats happening now, let alone the future...
i fail to see how moving to console will dumb anything down, so if you cant have 40 skills on screen at once its dumb? you cant spam 1-10 its dumb? i mean going to console you cna asume they'll take a better control scheme then dumb ass hotkey spam you know maybe real combat? combo's? instead of spamming skills from your hotkey like swg like wow like gw like almost every mmo out right now, the graphics on console will blow pc's away because all people with 360's and ps3 have the exact same specs which mean they ony need to optimize for 1 spec and not need to make low end version for people who havnt upgraded in 5 year, which is fine no need upgrade for gaming when you cna buy the console for the same price as a high end GPU.
but anyways enough ranting i think it will be good , and the only way pc's will ever become gaming rigs for more than 12% of the market is to standarize the system have 1 pc a year or somthing like that.. i just got the new 08 dell or gateway with intels and nvidia ne 08 crap, cant wait till the 09 model like cars lol
you took the words out of my mouth. MMO's have become more and more simple year after year. None of which has to do with the console market, but the people they are trying to target to draw into MMO's.
If theyre going to be developed on consoles, they wont be the catalyst of the "dumbing down" of the MMO genre. Blame that on the developers themselves.
MMO's on consoles are for grinding full stop. everything else would be a PC heavy advantage situation (raids, dungeons, crafting (to a certain extent)) but consoles get my vote if the game involves a lot of grinding
incidentally i recently got my hands on a PS3 and would not mind playing my fav MMO sitting back in my bean bag with the wireless controller in my hand grinding off some mobs. it just makes grinding so much less painful.
bring on the console MMO's as long as they dont downgrade the PC versions (or there will be hell to pay lol
)
Sorry, but you have way, way too many assumptions in your reasoning here.
DISCLAIMER:
The following are just my opinions based off my own experiences in regards to what you posted. Please don't take any of it personally, it's not meant as such, nor should anyone imply I am posting any of it as solid facts.
In regards to your points:
1. I cannot see any way how developing for one machine ( although, most likely the games would be developed for each of the consoles rather than just one, making your point moot as each have their own development systems just like PCs) would in any way "improve graphics and performance". Unless you mean in the sense that console systems, even the "big ones" of today, utilize less sophisticated and lower-end equipment than most PCs.
2. What of any updates? Or free content releases? Are you just assuming that we'd have to go out and purchase a new, updated disc? There will still need to be patches downloaded and products updated at release and afterwards, there is really no difference except that you'll need to pay some additional cost to do so via services like Xbox Live, etc. on top of what you're already paying your ISP.
3. Comparing a fighting game and it's control system to an MMO is just apples to oranges - sorry. Personally I've not played Mass Effect. They make it only for Xbox 360 and don't plan to release it on any other console or medium (ie. PC) so chances are I'll never try it. I don't plan to purchase a 360 at all (especially at the current prices - I can get a PC with 2x the performance for the same price) and may get a PS3 primarily for it's double use as a Blu-Ray player - so I can't give any opinions on that part. But I can say from my experiences with FFXI and Phantasy Star Online, it is more burdensome to try and switch between hotbars/abilities than most current MMOs are on PCs..at least it was to me.
4. I'll concede most of this point except that it is still an additional service being paid for (Xbox Live).
5. This I think is the biggest assumption made here. I find it extremely unlikely that MMO companies would take a hit, of any amount, to their wallets just because Microsoft requires you to let them charge you additionally for key game features advertised on the boxes and on top of what you have to pay your ISP. If this assumption was true, Microsoft would not charge you for Xbox Live or your ISP would graciously lower your monthly ISP charge to compensate for you paying Microsoft for the Xbox Live service. ;) What would most likely happen is that you'll end up paying $5.99 more a month for the privilege of playing an MMO on your console, than what you're currently paying to play them on your PC.
The only gripe I have with it moving to console would be if they ended up becoming console only at any future time. My PC serves a plethora of functions for me, hence why I bought it. Consoles pretty much only do one thing - play games. At the increased prices for them I'd like to see more functionality - hence why I said I'd probably get a PS3 if I got any of the newer consoles, because it can function as a Blu-Ray player and actually costs the same as a stand alone BR player. Hell, my PS2 still sits in my office room here and I use it pretty much just as a DVD player to keep the kids occupied while I play my games! ;)
Just because they are moving towards consoles for mmo's does not mean they will be dumbed down. Age Of Conan will be on PC and 360 and it certainly does not look like a dumbed down game. I think it could be better there are some very smart and talented people who play consoles. I think its a win if they do.
The reason why I feel that this new trend ending up this way is because of what a lot of people already mentioned. As a programmer, you can develop programs a lot quicker, and cheaper, when you know the target of your program. Actually, it is impossible to produce a program that you do not know your end users. So this is a logical step to make ALL games for a console because you already know the limits of the every customer's system. Now I do feel that not having a "controller" with over 40+ keys (i.e. keyboard+mouse) makes me feel awkward as the last console system I played on a PS2. But this could easily be ported to a console (as most are) and allow simultaneous use of a controller or keyboard+mouse depending on how the end user feels about how a game should be controlled.
Now from what I am seeing, the major differences between a console and a pc game is that a pc game has much more flexibility in controlling visuals and other aspects of the game vs a console. But that is only out of necessity because every pc customer has a different system, as appose to a console customer where their system is identical to every other console customer except maybe in peripherals (i.e. external hard drives/storage devices, input devices like TVs/controllers/keyboard+mouse).
Now the normal trend for MMORPGs for a pc customer that I am seeing is that a majority of games released for a pc will utilize the most up-to-date graphic algorithms for producing a 3d environments (i.e. dx10, physic engines, ect). This is because the pc market is geared to the people who want the fastest technology so naturally games need to follow this same market pattern or either side, or possibly both sides of the equation (i.e. hardware market and software market for pcs) could suffer from one side not pushing technology to its limits. Now consoles do push their own envelop in terms of 3d environments but a console is engineered to produce a specific output. A computer (or Turning Machine for you people who study Computer Science) was never produced to play a game. But a console was developed in its entirety to run a game program. Just like the arcades, which was built entirely to play a game, works on this same principle.
The more you look into this "Future of MMOs" the more you begin to see that this does not effect just MMOs, but all games in general. This is a logical step foward to have a unique program run on a unique system geared towards it in a world of specialized languages. Hopefully this will clear up some things for those feel that pc games are superior to console games because of the fact that a pc can run faster. But let me ask you this: If you ask people who play games that they had the option of perfect gameplay but only either smooth 3d environments or graphical environments, the majority will vote for smoother. Now this is only hypothetical because both graphical and smooth can be achieved along with ideal gameplay but this is because smooth environments are something that everyone can agree on. Slower the frames, the worst your gameplay experience will be. Graphics are subjective and very from person to person; one man's trash is another man's treasure.
If the market in games steps towards consoles over pcs, then I will be there to go with the flow. Hell, like some people said before me, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to buy a new console than buy a new computer.
Edit: Hell, seeing what others just posted, the enflux of console based MMOs would help fuel the development of next generation consoles. Which in turn might even make them faster/graphically advanced/ect compaired to their pc versions. Like I stated above, all computers are Turning Machines, just each computer made is created to do a specific job compaired to a pc which is indeed a more specific version of a Turning Machine, was created to allow the user to do a myriad of different functions. In this same light, a console is a more specific version of a pc, made only to run games (and maybe browse the internet).
The future of the console is the PC.
Look at all the add ons for the XBox 360. What does it look like with all those things attached to it?
A PC.
The benefit (and sometimes achilles heel) of the console is the OS is known, the code base is known, and you know what kind of performance you're going to get out of it.
The downside is the OS is known, the code base is known, and you know what kind of performance you're going to get out of it.
They always lag behind the new PC hardware. Without the PC pushing the boundries, we'd still be playing the SNES and living in 8-bit bliss.
Consoles these days have to come with huge hard drives, disk drives, OS's, internet connections.... smells like a PC to me.
Here is something to consider:
What is the average life expectancy of an MMO compared to that of a console?
I'm pretty sure that developing an MMO for a console presents more than enough problems in just this aspect. First, there must be a 3-5 year development cycle (which itself might be greater than a console lasts). After that, the game should last somewhere between 3-6 years (probably other numbers, I'm just guessing). As you can see, by the time the game comes out, it is almost time to get the "next-gen" system. If the game does come out in time, there isn't a lot left to actually play the game.
There are two MMOs on consoles now, and they work perfectly well without having to be "dumbed down," at least compared to WoW and PvE games of similar ilk.
EQoA (PS2): the game has a full featured crafting system, as well as a character customization system that is arguably superior to that of EQ and EQ II. It's very easy to switch between up to ten combat abilities on the fly using a controller and to drill down to your buffs once every 30 mins or so. The problems that the game has are an archaic game design that emphasizes grinding over questing (and very slow grinding at that) and absolutely horrific graphics. Despite the utterly crappy graphics the 1-20 game is pretty fun. About a 50/ 50 mix of questing and grinding to level. Then, at 21 on the quests dry up and the game falls flat on it's face. Very few subs, estimated at around 10,000 as I recall.
FFXI (PS2, X-box 360, PC): again, this game is hampered more by an archaic game design than anything else. It certainly can't be considered dumbed down compared to something like WoW. In fact it's pretty arcane. For example, read up on the crafting system some time. However it focuses on forced grouping (very few classes can solo well, and none do it effeciently) and grinding to advance. It has a half million subs, but it's hard to say how many are console versus PC.
As soon as a game designer has the sense to create a WoW, EQ II, LoTRO, or GW in console space, they will make a bundle. Quest based gameplay, compelling graphics, soloability. These are common sense game design elements in console space, and for whatever insane reason the only true MMOs on consoles go in the exact opposite direction. Launch EQ on a console (with bonus shitty graphics in the case of one) is absolutely not going to fly.
Things look brighter in the future. The SOE spy game looks interesting, and Age of Conan also looks really good. Cryptic is also supposedly bringing their new super hero MMO to the 360. And who knows, Huxley might not be vaporware.
While I think you make a valid point I think you would be surprised how many people hold on to last gen consoles for a long time. Like personally if AoC comes out on 360 next year and it has a good following that draws in good numbers It will give me incentive to keep playing my 360 for an even longer time just for that game let alone some others I will still enjoy.
Bringing MMO's to console will mess the kids up even more.
MMO addiction now in console format.
Also we will likely see more "me-me-me" type MMO's
I think that console games have the potential to make online multiplayer gaming grow.
That being said, I don't think "massive" online multiplayer caters to the console's strengths. I do see instanced worlds and peer-to-peer games that resemble MMOs, but not true MMOs.
That's because there's too much of a harassment/legal/PR mess when you start to bring an unknown experience to a toy like a console. I can see too many upset parents, too many bugs and NGE fiascos, and too much instability in the unpredictable MMO format that make it unsuitable to the "packaged experience" console gaming built it's reputation upon.
In other words, PC gamers are used to the kind of DIY experience you get from PC games. Console gamers like console specifically because you are guaranteed a certain experience. You know what you are going to get in a console game, which is far from the sort of "pandora's box" you get from MMOs.
I honestly didnt read a single persons post other then the OP but this is what I have to say..
I would LOVE more new mmorpg's to get away from the PC and it would be nice to have some really nice ones for the consoles. The main reason being I dont want to spend a whole lot of money on a super computer for future mmo's. I want to play a really awesome one (hopefully AoC will deliver) on my Xbox360. I want to be able to lay back or even on my bed and play the hell out of it and not get tired and cramped. I ahve high hopes for Aoc on the 360 but not really The Agency because I dont own a PS3...yet.
A console longevity is limited.
A MMO takes many years to developp.
So the answer is...NO. We will see a few MMOs on the consoles...the developpers would need to be able to work on the Xbox 2011 and on the PS4 NOW, to make it a viable option. Let's me check with Sony and MS about that...not happening.
The fact that computers are a better gaming platform still remains, alltho you might be impressed by the simplicitiy of a console, don't be fooled. The computer is and always will be a much stronger platform allowing devs to actually progress further with graphics and complexity.
Chatting is one thing most people cant do on a console, having a mic tied to ure ear for several hours is not exactly comfortable. (And no, sitting in the couch with a keyboard and mouse, is not comfortable either :P )
One huge diffrence between consoles and computers is that.. well... computers can be upgraded, allowing for expansions that could improve graphics once the game becomes older and keep it alive. The console dosnt live long enough, 3 years at tops and you will need a new console. And the game would die.
Computers dont have that problem, many MMORPG's are now more than 5 years old, and still living large. Yes.. you would have to upgrade your computer after a while alas computers arent used purely for gaming, there are alot of other uses. And if you absolutely have to play on a 52" widescreen in your living room, migrating ure PC and hooking it up, is far from impossible, its actually quite easy..
That being said, a new GeForce card is right around the corner, the 9800.. with 2 processors on it.. and will probably be about 500 dollars or so, And will most likely hold for a couple of years. =)
As for games being "dumbed-down" I dont see a huge problem in that, sure it wouldnt challenge your brain to do anything more than follow shiny colors like a monkey, but its still fun I suppose. I can see how its possible to play a MMORPG on a console, but it wont feel the same way actually achieving soemthing , and will more than likely just be a step down in mmo evolution rather than a step forward.
If you want performance and shiny graphics, get a GOOD GFX card and ure set for quite a while, im running every single game except crysis at 1600x1050 with 16x antialiasing and it looks superb. :)
If MMO's want to expand their audience they will need to look to consoles. End of story. WoW keeps touting it's 10 million subscribers without mentioning that 6+ million of those subscribers are Chinese accounts. Four or so million people across North America and Europe is not mainstream. MMOs still have a way to go and neglecting consoles will retard the growth of the genre.
I also found it amusing that Rob Pardo expressed worry about "dumbing down" MMOs by porting them to consoles. WoW is almost universally maligned for it's simplification of MMO game structure.
Developers who don't embrace consoles will be left behind.
Producing games on a console is so much easier than on a PC and is an easier option for devs.
If some devs choose this path, there will be others that will continue producing on the PC as there will still be a big market.
It has already happened to simulations on the PC, driving and flight. Sim Bin still produce racing sims for the PC and Maddox still produce flight sims for the PC, quality ones at that.
IMHO there are two many devs/producers producing medicore MMOs, and only a few serious ones, let the medicore ones go the console route, we won't miss much!
I disagree with people who say that console games do not have to be dumbed down.
I own an Xbox and a PC, controller-wise a PC has a very fast and accurate mouse and a whole keyboard of hotkeys. An Xbox has a very slow inaccurate analogue stick and about 16 buttons. Hmmm? no im sorry not even close to being the same.
Also i laugh in the general direction of USB mouse support for Xbox. Micro$haft will never add mouse support because FPS gamers (and me) will use it for FPS games. and that will create an imbalance.
Games that are for Xbox and get ported to PC are already dumbed down. Gears of War for example, Ive tested this on both the console version and the PC version. The enemy AI is slower and there is a very distinct Auto-Aim on the console version. Whereas the PC version is much more challenging because if it played like the console game PC gamer would breeze thru the campaign and eat up all the 360 gamers online. The same applies for Halo 2, Shadowrun and possibly every other FPS. Possibly having a slower Analogue stick for an MMORPG will matter less than FPS. But still you cannot deny that the 360 controller limits what you can do in comparison to a keyboard and mouse.
Aside from the limitations of the controller the target audience is different. Xbox Live is full of kids and immature people. I care not what anyone else says i have spend many many hours Playing on both Live and online in PC games and my general estimate is that there is about 2-4 times as many children on Live. Im not saying that all under 16s are immature but a good portion are. I have played a plethora of PC MMOs im not gonna list. But i have also played Phantasy Star on my 360. I laughed so hard. the ridiculous amount of people called "IVANNAF/UCK" and people standing around with semi naked 6ft blonde toons called "IRA-SMEXY-BITCH". there were probably more immature nubs than actual people who wanted to play the game. Yes there are people like this on equivalent PC MMOs but the numbers arent as bad as Phantasy Star.
There just isnt the maturity and commitment towards consoles. With a console your gran buys you one for Xmas and it cost £200, No effort no price tag. Building a PC can be well over £2000 not to mention many many hours of choosing parts, building and tweaking to perfection.
I am a PC gamer who owns an Xbox. If a games comes out for PC and Xbox i get it for PC because it will always be better.
I am dreading having Xbox gamers join me while im happy playing AoC in the future. For me it will ruin the game.
Unless the MMO developers do something drastically impossible when it comes to porting MMOs to console the target audience will be dumbed down the games will suck and it will ruin MMOs.
Hopefully they will keep Xbox and PC gamers seperate for AoC and hopefully they will have a completely different interface for Xbox. because i dont want to suffer having a dumbed down game and control system just because some people have a lack of commitment to their gaming system.
Xbox gamers get me so angry.... look i accidentally wrote like a page of a post lol =P
sorry.
/Psilo
Like many said before me, not everyone is going to want to talk live. Yes many consoles can have keyboards and mice plugged into them making them virtual PC's.
I play almost MMO's exclusively, and I wouldnt mind the idea of sharing with console players. But programing future MMO's for console only is something SoE would come up with. (ahm yes that was a slam)
The console market is what about 80% 13-23 year olds, while PC gamers average is about the same 80% 21-38 years old. with about 13% under 20. That is a big market of gamers that if they went exclusive console or primary console that they would lose (I'm one of them).
And good example of a great game but shitty interfacing is Elder Scrolls Oblivion. Stunning graphics, stunning world, and a totally fucked up interface because it was designed primarily for a console. I found it so clunky and clumsy I didnt bother to finish the game. And truth to tell I may skip their next one if the interfacing is as horrible as Oblivion was.
Now as we all know information you find on the internet could be wrong, but I found out some suprising facts about Oblivion sales. We know that Bethesda sold 1.7 million copies of Oblivion. And as best I could find only about ~250k of that was to consoles (information 2 months after initial release). That means ~1.4 was sold to the PC market. Now Bethesda will not officially release sales totals and break downs. But that is a shot in the foot for consoles being the "medium of choice" for MMO's.
I think Rob Pardo understands that the PC will always be the primary income source for MMOs. I cant for 1 second even believe WoW would have 10 million monthly subscribers, or even a 10th of that if it was designed primarily for the console.
Then again all we'll have to do is wait about 2 more months and see who gets the bigger share for the Age of Conan MMO. My guess is by month 6 after release PC's will have around 80% of the subscriber base (or more).
Cryptic Studios has hinted that its new MMO "Champions Online" maybe designed primarily for the console. Now I cant find the quote...figures. It was somewhere of their sites forums. I think its a big mistake and once I read that I started second guessing whether I would even want to deal with a console to PC port, especially a MMO.
YOU the consumer might hold on to it, but that does not necessarily mean the development team would keep supporting it once the next-gen console system releases. Sure they might try and port it over to the workings of the next-gen system and then force the players to purchase new "advanced" copies of the game to continue playing, but given how volatile the console market has been in the past I found it doubtful they'd even go that far. Chances are they'd change the medium the games are stored on so they're not backwards compatible.
If I can customize my game by using mods/addons and that the open public can create these mods and addons, then I am cool with it. Otherwise, oh well. Guess just have to take what I can get.
I am done quoting posts of the "pc" people on this site ( even though I am a pc and console person) you can all keep living in this realm of self delusion, consoles are as viable of a MMO platform as pc's and developers no this or they wouldnt be making them. The whole argument about dumbing them down is pointless also, there are more kids on consoles thats a fact but you underestimate how many adults own and play consoles. I myself belong to 2 communities one called Age (Adult Gaming Enthusiasts) and the other called TAG ( The Adult Gamer) made up entirely of adults with families and real lives. Almost all of us play consoles and pc games and will always enjoy both mediums.
In these communities we also enjoy MMO's and would gladly play one on a console when a quality title becomes available and we would not need a "dumbed down" version and beleive neither would these kids you all speak of, the youth of today learn things in school we didnt learn till college so why do adults assume all kids are ignorant, thats not very logical.
I also have to address the poster who said basically PC gamers are superior to consolers at fps and would "school" them. Hate to burst your bubble but most of the people I play online with are just as comfortable with a mouse and keyboard in there hands as a controller and would gladly show you that first hand. Also Gears of War is a console game ported to PC so your whole paragraph about that is a moot point.
In the end most of the things stated here are personal opinion and personal tastes but please tell me how wrong I am.
Couldn't agree more with Lazarus. PC and colsoles are both great for pretty much all game types including MMO's. It's all based on opinion. I say bring all MMO's to as many different systems as possible. More players, more money for the companies and overall, a better gaming experience for everyone. Of course you will have to deal with immature players with bad attitudes, but hey, thats a part of life and you will experience the exact same thing anywhere else in games and out. :P Just enjoy and play the games you love. Why care if they go to other systems? It really confuses me.
I would have no compunction about the death of the PC as a gaming platform if console makers would just give up on their stupid obsession with boxing out keyboard/mouse play.
Consoles, afterall, are nothing more than standardized computers. They have now broken the resolution barrier that previously existed, and little really stands in the way of them being a viable replacement for PCs as gaming platforms, other than this historical aversion to expanding control flexibility.
Um, welcome to 2008?
What is with all the angst regarding MMO's on consoles?
The two leading consoles this gen can pretty easily run anything that runs on a PC. With 5.1 sound and 1920x1080 resolutions the experience is pretty comparable.
"Dumbed down"? WTF? Like WoW isn't already dumbed down? What are you talking about? Younger players on consoles? Better community? Again, wtf are you on about? LIke WoW is populated exclusively by middle aged, well-behaved, polite professionals?
As you all might recall, there is a pretty significant MMO already running on consoles. Final Fantasy not only runs on xbox but even old PS2s and guess what, they share the exact same identical world with players on PC. Are the graphics the same? No (but they are last gen consoles). Is the rest of the game pretty much identical? Yes. Have consoles improved drastically compared to what FF used to run on? You better believe it.
The only major difference now is controls and MS could easily enable keyboard/mouse on the 360 and PS3 already supports it. So, uh, what other reasons do you have that aren't 5 year old and inapplicable anymore?
Pull your collective heads out of your butts and look around, console /= NIntendo 64 anymore. There are close to 10 million Xbox 360's out there. If you only got 10% of them to play it would be the second biggest MMO in production. To me that just screams "come sell me something that you can charge me for every single month"!
Well said!
So a PC player pays 15 bucks a month, and has pretty much unlimited uploading/downloading. The XBox player pays 15 bucks a month, plus 8 bucks a month (XBox Live Gold), and doesn't get to do anything much on the internet...
That to me... screams "Buy a PC and use THAT." Heh.
I never will go exclusively to console in any event but it it did....*shakes finger* You just try me..I'll be gone like that! *snaps fingers*
I'm not sure what posts you're reading, but I think you might be misinterpreting some of the meanings, especially for the term "dumbing down". By saying they'll have to "dumb down" the games for consoles most people mean both the control system as well as general functionality. Having the large number of abilities available for a console game as most PC MMOs have today, would make the games extremely burdensome to play/use them. Given both the very limited number of "buttons" on console controllers and thus the small number of possible macroing/combination possibilites, most of today's MMOs would have to cut down on a very large number of abilities/functionality to be viable. That in turn could very possibly force the developers to ease up on many of the core aspects of a game.
In regards to the post about someone saying PC users are superios at FPS to console gamers, you took it the wrong way. They were saying that the speed of targetting control with a mouse/keyboard tends to be much faster than that of console controllers - and they used Gears of War as an example, claiming to hve played the game on both systems. Also, I don't think the fact that Gears of War was a console game ported to PC makes any of the previous examples it was used in moot by any means.
Thanks for taking the time to post a well thought out and intelligent reply to my post. The "dumbing down" term is a two meaning term, it can mean exactly what you were saying which I can easily see how some people would think that way becuase of the percieved limitations of the control schemes on console, the reason i would disagree with this is quite simple I can plug a mouse and keyboard into my ps3, therefore that line of reasoning isnt valid at all. Also for those who say well microsoft doesnt allow it on the 360, that doesnt matter if it can be done it will. they also no this seeing as how they have released a controler addon that is a mini keyboard.
Now my paragraph about "dumbing down" though was aimed at some I have read on these forums who have actually stated in no uncertain terms that consolers are a less intelligent demographic in the gaming communities. This should not be taken as an attack on everyone using the term dumbed down.
As to the paragraph about fps I did misread his meaning, of course a kb/mouse combo is more accurate then a controller. There are those who use controllers who would say they can hold there own against any kb/mouse player. I cant dispute this even though I do actually agree with the poster about the advantage for pc players.
Once again thanks for the reply but while my post didnt clarify itself on wich way the term dumbed down was being used I meant exactly what I said just on a different use of the term i have seen on these and other forums and not nesecarily this thread. Just blew off some steam about it here lol!
Or you could buy a PS3 or a Wii and download game demos, surf the web, play games online or whatever for free just like in PC land. PS3 is actually even going to come bundled with a free MMOish sort of experience in a few months (Home). Which strikes me as pretty nutty since you can't get to the web at all on a 360. Nice how MS manages to charge more for fewer options.
Also, MMOs on the X-box 360 don't require a gold account, so your point is utterly moot with respect to MMOs (the topic of this thread, after all). A free silver account is all you need to get to go online with PSU or FFXI.
Why do I get the feeling that the pro PC guys in this thread know barely anything about consoles . . .
Also, the latest Penny Arcade blog post is somewhat relevant:
www.penny-arcade.com/2008/02/27
Excellent observation - consoles are naturally evolving into PCs for a reason - because they MUST. Complex, sophisticated gameplay demands a PC-like platform.
When people point to "better Action!" and "more realistic Combat!" as desireable advantages of consoles, they're advocating the very things that mmogs are NOT - action fighting games. Many consolers don't seem to understand that mmogs are different from Shooters and Fighting games.
Console makes have offered keyboards since the 2600. Some of them offered mice. They are not good sellers.
Why, you ask? Because a keyboard and mouse needs a desk, which is totally antithetical to where the console is designed to operate from (the living room on a sofa with the primere television in the household from 4'-9' away).
Console games are all about cinematic experiences (sights and sounds). MMOs, quite frankly, have never been able to match console cinematics and ambiance. Nor can they, because MMOs are all about organizing bits and pieces of information on your screen. They are text-intensive and detail-oriented games, which requires an environment that is condusive to this sort of task. The living room ain't that place. Not from 4'-9' away, balancing a keyboard on your lap, with no flat surface available.
You see, the problem with these sorts of games on consoles isn't that the technology isn't there. The problem is that the environment the console occupies isn't set up for marathon sessions sifting through data. If it were, you'd do your quickbooks on your plasma, and your word processing from your sofa.
There is a reason you go to your desk to do those types of things, and that's because the wife wants to watch Oprah, your kids want to watch Sesame Street, and your dad wants to watch DVDs. It's a total disruption for long term activities that require sorting through lots of details quickly.
Broadband access? That's easy for consoles. Mapping to controllers? Can do. Using keyboards and mice? Entirely possible. The problem isn't the capability. The problem, as I see it, is the space and place the console operates from is totally incondusive to the sorts of tasks that separate MMOs from, say, action games or FPS.
All very valid points, the only problem is people have marathon sessions now on consoles in the games they play on them, including myself. I personally have played FFXI on my 360 and had no problems using a keybord to do the typing, and if I did choose to use a mouse on one of the console platforms, I have a very easy and inexpensive tilting tv stand that works great for this very purpose. In fact I have used my laptop on it numreous times. Also lets think about what you said about the enviroment itself not being condusive to long sessions required in an mmo hmm.........More comfortable-Setting on my huge and cushy sofa for 4 hours or sitting at my stiff backed computer chair, not even a contest lol.
i Agree with the first poster Mike. I think consoles are more comfortable to play as i can sit far back, get to use a large tv rather than in front of a pc. If i had a faster laptop i could use that as well, but more expense. I would love to play it on the console, but i don't see how they can get the system to work on it. the combinations that a keyboard and mouse give is huge, how they replicate that on a few buttons on the console i don't know. I am also sure we are aware of how rubbish the infrastructure of xbox live is! imagine patches and the traffic for an mmo as well! unless MS can have a private channel per game. I really hope it works. I think i will get AoC and see if that plays well on the console, would be interesting to see of the functions are the same as the pc. AoC would probably compare quite well due to the type of game it is, now war and Wow i am not sure how that will work!
I really hope they can work it out as it is more comfortable sprauled on my bed ;)
Personally, I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of big MMO names on the consoles. I believe it could be a big step for MMOs as a genre. Let's face it, the MMO market is not evolving at all quickly. They all share basically the same rigid formula that EQ adopted from MUDs. While things like customizable interfaces and such have seen some evolution, the basic progression and combat have not really progressed in any meaningful way.
I believe the move towards console gaming will breathe more life into the genre as developers experiment with different gameplay and control models to better adapt to a console and its controller. I am already interested by some things I have read about The Agency, and I am eager to hear more about its gameplay formula, which I hear is definitely not the norm for a MMO.
As for many of the remarks I have read in this thread, I don't agree with many of the arguments. Kids? There are plenty of us geezers around who have been playing arcade, PC, and console games since the BBS and Pong days. Personally, I find these "kids" (which are usually adults acting like kids) in all gaming arenas from Quakeworld days through all MMOs.
As for dumbing down the gameplay, I expect the exact opposite effect to happen eventually. The gameplay will end up evolving, FINALLY.
I'm getting a bit tired of the MMO genre as it is (like I said, not evolving -- as is evidenced by many of the cancellations many of which I was testing and agreed should be cancelled). And there really isn't much of a difference between buying a new console every X years or upgrading my PC every X/2 years. And hey, these days I am enjoying gaming on my big Flat Screen more than my PC.
I actually just bought a PS2 game the other day. And guess what? I didn't have to have my PS2 to play it, because my PS3 plays it just fine. ;-)
However, I still do not like having to pay for X-box Live. I'll give ya that one!
Controller limitation? I dunno. I have seen some very clever console interfaces, and again I believe it may push the genre to new mechanics that even the PC MMOs may adopt. Besides, if we can have drums and guitars on the consoles, I'm sure a MMO could release a specialized controller as well.
Lastly, one thing we should take from the success of the Wii in the current market is that which we gamers have been preaching all along: gameplay, availability, and ease-of-use > horsepower. The 360 and PS3 have really nice graphics. I don't feel a need to rush on to the next Nvidia offering anytime soon.
Why does everyone always complain about XBOX Live costing money???
If you can not afford the $50 for a year....or is it $40 for 13 months? I forget
maybe you need to get a job and not be playing so many games
cmon, thats dirt cheap
if you cant afford the 3 or 4 dollars a month to spend on your hobby, maybe you need a new one. Something like, maybe getting a new job, a second job or can collecting.
It's not the cost of it that is the problem I believe, it's the fact that Microsoft requires you to pay for it to use their games/products via the console. It's really nothing more than an extra hand to grab your money - if it wasn't then MS would require it for use of all their mediums: in Windows to access the internet, for their PC games, etc. It's a "bs" charge they've added to consoles, especially given how much the consoles are becoming more like PCs with each new generation. I view it as akin to my paying for the use of AOL or MSN while using something else for your ISP, except MS forces you to do it if you want to play/purchase console games that use/need an internet connection. ;)
I see what you're saying about having the capability to use a keyboard/mouse with the consoles, but that doesn't necessarily mean the developers will not "dumb down" the game functions for controllers. The most likely scenario is they will scrap abilities/functions and make the UI and core game functions for controller use. I can't really imagine them making a UI for either/or peripherial use, especially since it would be a better bet that most of the console owners/users would have controllers and not have mouse/keyboard.
Precisely.
Multiplayer over PC = game cost + ISP cost
Multiplayer over Live = game cost (which is often more than a PC version) + ISP cost + Live fee.
Would it have a significant effect on my income? Not at all. Is it an unnecessary expense? Most likely, especially considering how much cash Microsoft already rakes in (they wanted to buy google for HOW MUCH?!).
I'm not going to waste money on equipment with a limited shelf life and no affordable upgrade options. By that I mean consoles. When I was a child, I gamed as a child. Playing Tank Commander on Atari, Pitfall on Commodore 64, Super Mario on NES, also owned Sega Master System, Sega CD, SNES, Nin64, PS, PS2, GB, GBA etc etc but got tired of buying new consoles every year or so and that's all a console currently does is just the games and or internet browser.
I can't use Photoshop, 3DSMax, Maya, and other rendering software on a console. I build my own PCs so I can pick and choose the quality of parts, and select the software and plugins installed. I can justify component upgrades like video card and memory knowing that it will be used across all software and performance. For the self employed it would even be a tax write off to upgrade.
But the current trend of consoles with costs between $400-$800 is insane. I could build a powerful PC with that amount of money. Hell I could buy a used car for that much.
Also what about multiple monitor/display support?
The best MMO's in my opinion are the 'sandbox' type, where I can actually interact with, change, and effect the environment I game in. I don't just mean items in an inventory.
But! I still want a Wii, just because its fun going thru the motions instead of just tapping buttons.
/yawn this discussion is about gaming...
To reach the point, turn back, and after 2 miles turn left, bon voyage!
why dont you "games for consoles dont need to be dumbed down" people dont have a look at games that allready are out for consoles and pc ?
for example look at unreal 3
you can play it on console and on pc
both are the same ... well nearly ... on ps3 are less players possible, lesser view distance, smaller maps, .....
for me that sounds like "dumbed down" to fit on a console
or look at THE ELDER SCROLLS 4 : OBLIVION
its nearly exact the same on pc and console and thats extremly horrible
i bought a game for my pc and got trapped with a game reduced to be controllable with a gamepad
compare ELDER SCROLLS 3 with ELDER SCROLLS 4 ... yes the gfx seems to be improved -- character custumisation in terms of clothing / equipment and displaying it got massivly reduced like many of the gamemechanics
so please just make a reality check before claiming that games do not need to / will not be dumbed down if they aim for the pc and console market
There is NO requirement, They do not Require you to purchase a membership. I can buy a 360 and a game and play it WITHOUT a internet connection. If I want to get game updates and play online against people around the world, then I would be required to pay the $3 or $4 a month.
I actually know a few people that do not have anything but dial up. They enjoy thier 360 extremely well.
I know everybody hates Microsoft.
and about the extra hand grabbing your money, think about that next time you pay 14.95 a month for a mmorpg that is not even 50% complete and full of game breaking bugs. Its the norm nowadays. just take a look tothe left and see all these horrible games that charge a monthly fee....not enough? check the games list.
But you forget that we're discussing this in relation to MMOs. You can't play MMOs without connecting to the internet. To that on the 360 requires you pay for Xbox Live.
As for your comment ab out the 14.95, do you really think that'd change at all if MMOs moved to consoles? If anything they'd probably increase, considering most title made for both PC and consoles cost more for the console versions these days. Also, do you honestly think their development and quality would be any different? If you do then I'd like to live your fantasy land as well. ;) It's obvious you don't care much for MMOs, which is fine - that's your choice. But the topic here isn't whether or not you like to play them, it's whether moving them to consoles is really a viable and intelligent move for the genre.
Oh, and for the record I don't hate Microsoft - but I do dislike companies adding on additional charges for services you're pretty much already paying for. I already pay for my ISP, I see no reason for having to pay anything additional to use it via any other product. /shrug
Complain all you want about spending a couple dollars a month.
Fact of the matter is
CONSOLES are the way of the future for mmorpg and thats what this thread is about.
Your arguments are mute
Very poor reasoning in this one. I think that gaming alltogether is shifting on consoles for reasons other than a monthly fee, but calling your opinion a fact... Damn it, must we go there again and again and again....
I'v never played online with a console...how the heck do you communicate with other players using a controller? premade sentences?
Sure you could be useing voicecom I guess, but then you would have total chaos in the main channels if there where more than 10 ppl there.
You could try to only have groupchatts...but then I would not call a game like that very mmoish at all, sure you could SEE alot of players around you, but have no easy way to interact with them.
If you ever tried to run a raid with 50 players and try to have them in the same voicecom-channel? it's not a very fun experience at all...you end up with most people muted.
I don't think consoles can handle a mmo crowd...but then I could just be to old-school.
I'm sorry to see you have no real validity to your side of the discussion here, and only try to pass your opinion off as fact. This stance of yours alone makes your arguements moot.
I honestly do not believe the future of MMOs are on consoles, but that does not mean they're not necessarily heading in that direction. I would go on to guess (meaning this is just my opinion) that if MMOs do go to primarily consoles, the genre will most likely die off. It might evolve into a new, hybrid type of "MMO" but it would only be a shell of what we see in the genre today. As mentioned in the post by Ogrelin, there'd be a distinct lack of communication via game/zone-wide and even just local/area chat channels due to limitations of resources - unless they kept those channels in for folk that decided to use keyboard/mouse with their consoles.
But as I said earlier, I feel that if MMOs went to the console many of the core functions/features we see in them today would be nixed out to streamline them for use of the controllers as the primary (if not sole) input device.
I suppose we could go on for days
Thought it was Yahoo and its subsidiaries ...I believe it was mentioned they were offering about 4 billion $...either that or I read it wrong, possible..as my eyes kind of bugged out at that price tag lol.
Pffft pocket change for Microsoft doncha know. :)
Cend
I am a pc gamer, and I do not mind mmos on consoles at all, as long it does not mean lowering of the standards of my games (as it often is a case in games ported from one system to the other). In my opinion we have not yet seen what a true console mmo is capable of and that what make most pc gamers affraid. What I am affraid of personally is one-size-fits-all games, that do not take advantage of the full features of the gaming system (be it pc or (next gen)console).
AoC is going to have xbox360 version and then there is The Agency, I will definately follow those two titles to see how they do. Who knows, even though I am a pc gamer, it may be fun to play (some) mmos on the console in the future. With more and more consoles having online compatibility it would be really strange if some mmos were not developed for them.
No matter how it goes, I am sure that mmos will be developed for both markets in the future.
First off folks you gotta get your terms and nomenclature correct.
"Dumbed down" does not refer to the intelligence of people who are playing on a particular platform. What "dumbed down" means. in this context. is the reduction of features of the game in order for it to be compatible with a given platform.
Example: Moving WoW to console would require changing how the commands are interpreted and what those commands mean in game. There are plenty of buttons on consoles now days, so it's not as crippling as it used to be on 6-8 button pads. Directon still works the same on a keyboard as on a console pad, "enter" or "execute" still works the same. However, hot bar keys or trading command would have to be worked out and some command just dropped (thus the dumbed down comment).
Game updating might be a consideration as stated in the interview as well. There are advantages and disadvantages to the current platform king, the PC (or MAC, well a MAC is a PC, but that's a different topic). The advantage is that all the client is contained locally. This also a disadvantage in that the client is open for tampering and hacks. This is where the advantage of a console comes in. Very little information would need to be kept locally, but as with PC, except vice versa, this is also a disadvantage due to client change or network configuration changes as there isn't a means (generalization as I realize this isn't true across the board) to accommodate patches and upgrades.
I don't think the game itself will be impacted by having console users playing with the exception of the particular type of crowd now involved. I am in agreement with the interview that console gamers seek different satisfactions with their choice of platform. This would be brought into a game and may not be a good marriage at the moment. I don't believe that just because you are a console gamer the games are superficial or "less" than a game for the PC. The problem is perception on the part of those that are fanatics of their particular platform. Hell if you really look at the design of consoles they are just streamlined PCs biult for a particular purpose, playing games. So ease up PC fans, believe it or not, console gamers are human after all! :)
I find this sad, i love my pc. But i can really see how a person rather spend 400$ on a 360 instead of
2k $ for a gaming-pc to match the 360's preformance, i mean... It's even possible to use mouse / keyboard
on a 360 if that's what you prefer. It's Pure BANG for the buck.. *sigh* Hell... I'll probably go there myself
they've expanded the varietys of mmo's on the 360.
In my point of view, i can't wait for mmos on consoles,
Why not? Consoles are made for gaming after all, There way cheaper then computers, when new games come out your not worrying (Can i run this game!!)
Making games purely for consoles is a all win situation,
Sure Theres a hellalot of kids on consoles but Surly the game being released Wants as many people as possible to buy that game and not just "aim for the adult population" Weather its kids or not,
What can people say when companys say there turning to consoles,
-how can you do that mmorpgs have always been on pc
-there better on pc (if you've got enough dole to splash out)
I think it'd be for the best if all mmorpg's quit making for pc and just made for consoles.