SOE / Live Gamer Deal Explained
Today we learned that SOE will be replacing their Station Exchange program, a program that helps players sell in-game items for real life cash (RMT), with a third party company called Live Gamer. Managing Editor Jon Wood spoke to both SOE President and CEO John Smedley and Live Gamer Inc Co-Founder and President Andrew Schneider to try to clear up misconceptions that people might have about the announcement.
Back in December, MMORPG.com published an article titled, “Live Gamer RMT Sales Partner With SOE, Funcom and Others”. In that article, we learned that Sony Online Entertainment, along with Funcom and a number of other MMO publishers had partnered with a company called Live Gamer Inc., a company that provides RMT (real money transactions) services.
From the original article:
“During a brief conversation this afternoon, Courtney Simmons, the Director of Corporate Communications for SOE, told MMORPG.com that while SOE was indeed a partner, “to what extent [the company will be involved] has not been determined.” During the same conversation, Simmons pointed out that SOE’s current Station Exchange runs at a ratio of 28 non-RMT servers to the two that currently sanction the practice.”
Today, we learned the extent of the partnership in a press release issued by SOE:
“Live Gamer, the premier operator of a publisher-supported marketplace for real money trading of virtual items, has entered into an agreement to utilize Sony Online Entertainment’s (SOE) Station Exchange technology, the industry’s first proven, fully legitimate platform for secure buying and selling of virtual items. The resulting new, independent service, called Live Gamer Exchange, combines the Web-based accessibility of Station Exchange with Live Gamer’s proprietary Wall-Street-developed in-game application, giving players a flexible and convenient way to access the virtual marketplace anytime, anywhere.”
The press release goes on to say that the partnership will see current Station Exchange customers being migrated to the new Live Gamer system, called Live Gamer Exchange. During a phone interview on the subject, Sony Online Entertainment President and CEO John Smedley stated quite strongly that the Live Gamer partnership will be limited to the current Exchange servers in EQII only, and that there are no plans to spread beyond that. When asked if other games would become active in the partnership, Smedley answered that they are starting with EverQuest II and will see how it goes from there.
When news first broke back in December that Live Gamer, an RMT company, would be partnering with large publishers to offer their services in certain games, there was some concern among players that Live Gamer would function as a sanctioned RMT seller, complete with farming, adding to the already prevalent issue of in-game gold farming and similar practices. In an interview, Andrew Schneider, the Co-Founder and President of Live Gamer Inc. put some fears to rest:
“We will never farm,” he said, quite adamantly. “We will never buy from gold farmers. We will only facilitate official transactions.”
Live Gamer, it turns out, is not a farming site but rather functions purely on player to player transactions. Both Smedley and Schneider emphasized the importance of the company being publisher sanctioned. The hope is that with publisher-sanctioned RMT sales, the market will begin to dry up for the farming RMT sellers as players who wish to use these services move toward the official sellers who can provide security (that is often absent in other RMT deals) as well as protection from the bans that can result from using an un-sanctioned service.
During his interview, Smedley told us that gold farming is a number one reason that people give for leaving SOE games. Obviously, putting an end to the farmers is in the company’s best interest, as well as the players’. The hope, as mentioned before, is that sanctioned services like these will eventually drive the farmers out of business.
Smedley referred to Live Gamer as a kind of “white knight” in the battle against farmers, but was realistic about the idea of getting rid of them entirely. “I don’t think this is a short term fix,” he said. This is, rather, the first step in a battle against farmers. It will, he said, take years.
When asked why SOE didn’t simply continue with the current Station Exchange system, Smedley cited the desire to combat farmers as a strong incentive to join with Live Gamer. In the end, they feel, it is the power of numerous publishers coming together and partnering with a service like Live Gamer that they hope will be most effective in their conflict.
The entire system relies on the diligence of both Live Gamer and its partner publishers like SOE to keep an eye out for suspicious activity and abuse of the system that might end up inadvertently helping the farmers. Both parties in their separate interviews made reference to the fact that any players who have been flagged as farmers will be barred from the Live Gamer service and both parties will be keeping close watch.
To tell you just a little bit more about Live Gamer as a company, they were founded a year ago, in February of 2007. The company, we are told, was founded “in response to the illicit secondary market” and is made up of both gaming people and financial folks who, according to the company, work together and with their publisher partners to facilitate the sale of in-game items for real world cash between players.
In terms of how Live Gamer works, it might be best to think of it like your in-game auction house. The players are the ones who set the price for their wares, not Live Gamer. When I asked Schneider whether they were concerned that even a non-farming RMT seller might do harm to in-game economies, he told me that, when they engage a publisher (to talk about implementing in one of their games), they do spend time looking into the specific game, its design and economy to find the best way to proceed.
Still, even with these apparently altruistic intentions, Live Gamer is a business, and I couldn’t resist asking where the company’s revenue came in. It turns out that they place a small transaction fee on each transaction that is based on the settlement price.
While there are a number of players who would prefer to see RMT eliminated from MMOs entirely, the real situation is that there is a thriving market for the services that they provide. Partnerships like that between SOE and Live Gamer could be an avenue of curtailing aspects that can be damaging to game worlds and economies.
Maybe now, You can ask Soe, if thier planning on changing thier Terms of service and other various 7 or 8 page documents that we all page through to get to the game ( I can't recall what it's called exactly)
Previously it's worth various bans and possibly account losses to sell or buy anything with your account. The same goes for most games actually - Is RTM going to be legal from now on, Or only legal through this company, And still illegal for anyone else?
Etc. Etc.
-B-
I doubt they'll change their terms of service, EULA, or anything else for that matter.
This is just another in a long line of attmepts from SOE to get more money from players than they already pay. I personally would never play on a server or play a game that allowed any sort of RMT by the actualy company.
Why would they change it now? They have had Station Exchange for some time. Nothing new here except the method it sounds like.
Abolishing RMT activities has been found to be impossible so far, for every mmog company. No matter how many mass bans of both buyers or sellers, it continues to exist. Some game companies have come to realize this.
So now its simply a question of, do people use a questionable third party that could get you banned or use a legitimate one that's sanctioned and guaranteed in service. as well as paying the people who actually run the game as well as its players rather than a third party who could care less what happens to the game in the long run.
No matter who sanctions it or not its going to exist. you can denounce something all you want but it ultimately does nothing.
Why doesn't SOE [or any publisher, for that matter] just have servers where they sell the currency themselves?! If I ran a publisher, I'd look at the stats [28:2] and open 1 server in 15 as an RMT server. Hell, I'd even offer free character transfers TO that server [NEVER FROM that server, however!] That way you can start on a "real" server and if you find you advance too slow or whatever, you can transfer to the RMT server. If you're doing it to 'keep up with friends" - no problem - they can transfer their characters, too. Maybe even allow a character over-write when transferring? Or a stats but not items over-write, so you could play your real character on the real server and transfer it as it advances, but not wipe out what was purchased on the RMT server? Cut out the middleman and farmers!
These suits must think that most of us were born yesterday. This is clearly about extracting maximum revenue from customers and nothing more. Period. Why they cannot just be honest about this I don't know. It's not like it isn't obvious and yet they dance about with a lot of baloney about doing this for us.
In a perfect world a smart business would actually think about its customers first and as a result see the profits roll in. This is a lesson yet to be learned by most of them, including SOE.
This is about a huge pie they are hungry for. It's an enormous market measured today in millions of dollars and they want that pie - all of it. It is about that and nothing else.
It's funny how this was so wrong as to merit inclusion in the EULA, numerous bans, etc. until a means to derive profit from the practice could be found. Now like magic it goes from badness to goodness.
Imagine that... lol
Nobody ever seems to ask the question, if people want to purchase their way past certain parts of a game, maybe the game needs fixing? If people want to pay others to play a game for them, what is wrong with a game they would actually pay someone else to play for them? If I need to buy gold to save time so I can get to play somewhere else in Norrath something is wrong isn't it? It stopped being a game somewhere and became a chore I am willing to pay real money to get past. What is wrong with that picture?
I can hardly wait to see Smedley and the gang run amok with micro-transactions next. He is very excited about this new money maker. He seems to talk a lot more about money making than high quality entertainment providing. I wonder what is up with that? I think someone is missing the boat. In fact to SOE's great detriment I know they are and I believe this will eventually be their downfall which clearly has been in full swing for some time now sadly.
First we got to pay for a subpar magelo/alla, etc. with "Station Players" which is almost as useless as the pricey and failed EverQuest Legends was. Then EQ2 folks got lucky and won a couple of anything goes servers with real money for ingame things sanctioned. Then we both got to have a card game inserted into our online RPG which is really more a vehicle to sell loot cards for ingame toys like various buffing imps, fast mounts, cool auras and other window dressings. Not many people actually play Legends of Norrath. Just pop in and see how many players are logged in at any given time. No, the card game is a thinly veiled way to get EverQuest and EverQuest II players to blow money on ingame junk. They even have cards for this game drop off mobs in the gameworlds. Just slightly out of character? Who cares of course. It wasn't about enhancing EverQuest. It was about making more money in yet another most obnoxious way.
Maybe most people leave SOE because of gold farmers and perhaps the attendent constant ingame spam from them. However, I would venture to bet that this obnoxious unbridled marketeering is hurting their games almost as much. It makes players resent them bitterly, most of whom would never bother to post about as I have just done here. Instead, being more sensible than I perhaps, they will simply vote with their wallets and take their gaming dollars elsewhere. The more this goes on, the more I am inclined to want to join them.
It's too bad as I loved EverQuest faults and all for many years but its hardly recognizable anymore for what it once was. I hate the damned card game, gold selling, economy wrecking, ingame ads, microtransactions, etc. making their way into games today. I really, really just hate it. Why can't 50 bucks and 15 more a month be enough??? Why??? Guild Wars has proven even the $15. a month has got to be nearly entirely profit for any of the more successful games with large numbers of players. In their greed these buggers spoil the very thing that is the foundation of their business and I think that is going to catch up with them.
"Smedley referred to Live Gamer as a kind of “white knight” in the battle against farmers"
Its still no reason to let your MMOs become the "White Elephant Sales".
That joker was kinda funny... Im probly going to cancel my EQ2 account as I havent had the desire to play it in some time... Pirates of the Burning Sea being more fun. :)
If they wanted to end the whole gold farming issue they can/could. There is a couple games on the market that gold farming does not exist. The couple i think of off hand would be Asheron's Call and Cabal (EU).
There might end up being gold sellers for Cabal but if you've ever played it you'd understand it would be fairly fruitless to do so. Because throughout the first 50 levels of play I never once had a short need for gold and had to farm. The creatures themselves drop plenty throughout the course of play. Plus it has a system that is what most players call a "jackpot" system. Where 1 in 100~ creatures you kill has a possibility of dropping 10 to 20 times its normal drop in gold.
Asheron's Call may not be that popular but even in its hayday people never sold gold online, but rather items found in the game. But mainly gold in Asheron's Call is abounds of what anyone could need.
So in order to cartel this sort of thing in other games I can simply say they need to stop being so stingy with the gold drops in the lower levels. Even institute a "jackpot" system that would really help a lot. If there is no reason for people to want to buy gold then the sellers have no business. Thus gold sellers will stop fairly quickly.
Making people farm for gold is just another annoying timesink that SOE loves to do to people and that has become to much a ongoing fad amongst most MMOs today. Of course at higher levels this isn't an issue in most games. Its mainly those lower levels, but it would be nice to have an abundance of currency so that people can try out different things and not have to worry about spending to much so as to have enough for later on for your next set of gear etc.
But of course $OE is never going to figure this out... ( i say this in spite, in hopes they will)
Someone would expect them to ignore RMT and fight speculation instead (the main thing RMT does).
RMT hardly affect any game outside of 2 points:
- Speculations (and they are very nasty here)
- Camping spots (if you have instanced, you are immune to that already).
Again, a compagny which cares for the well beeing of the game, would find ways to prevent and stop speculation. You buy, you keep policy has to emerge.
PS: Adding a flag on each item is easy. This flag go away if anyone purchase the item, so you can't sell it twice...ways to restore this flag may, or not, exist (earn millions of XP while wearing the item for example).
Lyolas, I agree with you - SOE should just be honest about this upfront. They should make 2 versions of the game which run on two types of servers - P2P and F2P. The F2P could have all the transactions - and SOE should do the transactions themselves, not allow goldspammers to profit from them. The P2P would be the "premium" game and would probably still have problems with goldspammers, though I think allowing one-way character transfers would help that somewhat [as explained above].
i just dont get it.
I understand teh live gamer program and how they make revenue and i understand the somewhat subtle differences between this and teh existing station exchange.
However, if the principle gamer related benefit is to tackle gold farming I cannot see how live gamer will have a significant impact. Gold farming is in just about every game possible and whether you like it or not, unnless you ban specific trade aspects in a game, it will continue to exist and flourish.
Other than incite the usual protest of SOE using this as another money making venture from players above and beyond subs, I dont see the big impact here.
Do you mean a "Bind on acquire"-type thing?
Personally, I prefer a "Bind on Equip" system, but I can see where that is abusible...
Do you mean "Bind on Acquire" for items from RMT shop only? That would be an interesting idea.
You can only trade with guildies. This includes gear, coin, trade skill materials, everything. Trades can be done via guild bank only just as an added layer of scrutiny perhaps. You can only be eligible to trade within your guild after being a member of said guild for a minimum of 30 days, maybe longer, maybe 45 or even 60 days. Existent rules for guild formation remain unchanged assuming that forming a guild is not a 1 person affair in whatever the game is, etc.
Just a thought that popped into my head. Consider that like a brainstorming thing. In other words, don't shoot me. I am just tossing that out as an idea without thinking a lot about it. On the surface it would seem to work although it does introduce an element of inconvenience that I would probably argue is worth it considering it puts gold sellers out of business.
How many people would drop their guild for say 45 days and join a gold sellers guild to make a buy?
How about no trading until mid levels on top of that? This would assume some way for your main to pass down twinks your main aquires personally for your alts but you could not buy them gold, items, etc. You get them yourself, they get them themselves, or they/you do without twinks.
Of course, this removes the player economy largely and there is no longer a need for an auction house or bazaar. I don't know if I like that much but I think I like it a lot better than being spammed and having to play in completely ruined economies with rampant inflation and devalued currency, etc.
Could something like this be the lesser of evils? Somehow I doubt we will ever know and this is because there is no money to be made in fixing the games vs milking them.
I just realized a loophole after posting that. Alts. People would just make alts and put them into gold seller's guilds to make the buys, etc.
I suppose the fix for that is items, etc. cannot be passed to toons outside of the guild. That means money cannot be either or it doesn't work.
This might actually be a good thing in terms of promoting social interdependency, grouping, being active within one's guild, etc.
And if you prefer unguilded solo that is fine too. You can go solo yer own stuff then!
Actually I think someone above touched on the real answer to this and I think to some degree it has already been done in UO and elsewhere:
Just sell people premade toons of max level in full raid gear. Sell them thier epic weapons too. Sell them all the ingame items and currency they want for real money. Micro-transaction everything in the game world. Allow me to purchase the entire thing fully preplayed and won and done with nothing missing so I save maximum time and pass go, collect 2 billion and win. This way I can impress all my friends with my uber toon that I worked so hard to develop and am so highly skilled in playing.
This is what a lot of people seem to want anyway. Give it to them. Want to make lots of micro trans cash Mr. Smedley? Well, there you go. Sell out now. Sell it all. Leave nothing for the farmers to farm or sell. Just sell everything. Why fool around?
The only alternative worth doing in my opinion is to make a game so good that people don't want to buy advancement in it because they would miss the fun of playing to get there.
If I read this rather longwinded say of Smed and Co right, it all stays the same, just the RMT from the Exchange servers is now outsourced? Hardly a reason to be quite concerned, since it seems for the players its only a change for formalities.
There is a glimpse of understanding in one of the statements, however. Goldselling can never be succesfully forbidden. But like everything technically forbidden but practically widespread, it does more damage when out of control. Its the same stupid idea as in the age of Prohibition of Alcohol. Of course everyone drank, but now there was the mafia and crime connected with it. The only way to take out the farming is making a legal Money Trade system in MMOs. It would be the only realistic policy to deal with it. Most of us trust in free market in RL, so why NOT in a MMO?
Why must we have game-communism of controlled markets and sales? I say open it all up and the market with balance itself out, which includes to let everyone sell his money for whatever. Just set an offical trader to make it save, and open it all up. A percentage of the trade goes to the MMO owner handling the deal, like Ebay does with RL trade, and everyone is happy.
I can see from the posts here that many of you don't play games where RMT goes on. (sanctioned RMTs that is) These include, but aren't limited to, EQ2 (Station Exchange), Project Entropia (actual currency translation value), Eve Online (ISK for game time cards), and nearly every 'free' (read free to play/ microtransaction) MMO on the market. In the free-to-play/microtrans games, most either sell special items, many tradable, or actual currency for a fee. Some sell special coins, which can then be traded for items or sold to other players for in-game currency. I've played many, and some are so unbalanced it's not even funny. (Ie those that pony up $5, $10, or more a month receive such a huge advantage a free player can't compete.)
As a member of the EQ2 Station Exchange community, I find that despite the 'farming' for plat, it doesn't seem to hurt the economy at all. There are more people on that top priced mount and set up with all the high priced items you can buy. I would invite anyone that plays EQ2 to try out playing on the Exchange servers. I find that the community there is more reasonable and helpful than communities on some of the regular servers. I know many players there that don't participate in the RMT market.
One of the many issues as a developer is meeting player's demands. SOE took a poll shortly after EQ2 came out about how many players would use a sanctioned service for a RMT service. (The results are here: http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?month=052005&id=474. This is from May 2005.) The numbers were impressive (to me, at least). A much larger number responded than has ever played on the Exchange servers responded that they would use a sanctioned site allowing RMT. They created SE to meet player demands.
I have found that many of the complaints and accussations about companies and the unsanctioned gold farmers to be completely without merit. Why, you might ask, does this person know more than I do about it? I don't. I know as much as everyone else about the companies internal records. What I do know is what I see on the markets on the games I play. What I do know is how to use a calculator. Most of the accussations are nothing other than Urban Legend and conspiracy theories.
I could go on, but I don't see much point. I only have one thing to ask, though. Why do you dislike (maybe even hate) the concept?
Now that I've had my say about the whining I've seen on this post, maybe some real discussion can go on...
As a player on the Exchange community, my concerns are shared by many there. How will this effect my ability to make transactions? Will the move be seemless? Will the same interfaces be used and just have management transferred? What will the fee structure be like for using the service? Will it be more expensive for the seller, or cheaper?
I know I'm in the minority that acutally use the service on EQ2. The Bazaar has one of the highest player populations, though. When all other servers get merged, The Bazaar will still be there.
Oh, and another thing: you need to reconsider what your 'real money' is. In this day and age, it's not much 'realer' than that plat and gold that it gets exchanged for.
Edit:
Uncus, you made a comment about a F2P or P2P service. EQ2 is a subscription based MMO. I don't ever see it going to this type of service as long as the subscription numbers stay in the 100k+ range. What SOE does have for EQ2 is seperate servers where sanctioned RMT is allowed. These are The Bazaar and Venekor. The Bazaar, as I mentioned above, is one of the most populated servers.
It is obvious you don't understand the market. Despite the fact that you may dislike RMT, the simple fact of the matter is that you are in the minority. This is a thriving online business, and SOE recognizes that many of their customers desire the ability to participate in RMT transactions. In reality, SOE is most definately thinking about its customers first. You're just mad because they aren't thinking about YOU first.
And they don't have to worry about balancing the amount of currency coming into the game, as it is all earned legitimately, as opposed to being "created from nothing" when someone buys gold from them directly.
RMT is crap, guess we need to wait on games like Jumpgate Evolution or Darkfall to fix this issue :p
( If you wonder why these games, because they are twitch based games, so you cant bot and farm :p )
Greetz
For those that are interested, here is another comment by John Smedley on gamasutra.com about the announcement. There is a really good warning to those that would use the overseas farmers to make transactions, too! Anyway, here's the article: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17268
I think what would happen is that each guild would then invite their own farmers. Uber guilds really have them already, they just don't trade/sell outside their guild usually.
If they feel the need to limit the currency, they could do exactly that - limit purchases per day or week or month.
I guess what I'm trying to do, without having ever played in an RMT game, is justify how it could cut down on farming and help the casual player "keep up", while still making a profit for the company.
Making burglary legal and taxing it because other burglars are making money from it and it is oh SOOOO hard to police dosen't make burglary a good thing.
Does this make sense?
RMT is the death of these games in the long term, but the stupid arsed companies out there now are willing the slaughter the goose to get that golden egg so they just don't give a damn.
I have played SOE games since EQ1 since beta, and been a vocal supporter of their work since.
But no more.
I am finally done with them as a company, as I will be with any other dev that condones and/ or participates in RMT.
Bind on acquire would reflect my idea here. Since RMT are going to be hidden as well in game in every market, I would expand it to the whole market, but without expanded or not, anything is better than nothing. Speculation hurt the RMT themselves, althought on a superficial level, they are the one doing it the most and the best, and should be the one benefacting from them. But if you take a deeper layer of understanding, speculation on a first layer hurt the casuals, but in the long run, anything which hurt the casuals hurt everyone else in the game.
You buy, you keep. Simple, efficient, and fullfilling the goal of the market, which is the trade of goods for peoples who need them. The more this system work without interferance, the better everyone, including the RMT, would be. Happier and healthy casuals reflect in many ways. (of course, if 1 RMT does speculate and other doesn't...those who don't are shafted badly).
See, unlike some who are officially hunting goldsellers, I see them as my friends. And if a friend is doing something which hurt himself and other, I have to try to put some sense into their head so they stop hurting other first, and second, themselves. A bind on equip would not remove RMT, it would complicated their existance granted. But it would in fact remove most speculation and artificial inflation from the game. A serious RMT organisation would want to see such a feature, as it may outright kill some competition in the same time...and me; I care mostly for the casuals and the game overall health.
I am not the best at explanations however...so I will try the simple equation...
Bind on equip = 99% speculation decrease = less inflation = casuals purchasing more items they want = more real trades = more troubles and complexity for speculators and RMT = less speculators = more careful planning = better game = more casuals = more business for RMT (and less competition) (The more REAL trades happen, the more they want, the more they want, the more business as well for RMT)
Why is everyone making such a big deal out of this like it's something new? Sony has been running the Station Exchange servers for over 2 years now. This is just switching the process to a new company.
I play on one of the servers, and I love the exchange. I make well over 300 bucks a week selling plat on the game.
Heh... As though we needed another example of how low SOE will go for the almighty $$$.
It's a wonderful spin they put on it. "We're doing it to help the players from getting scammed". They're just doing what's best for their subscribers. Aww how thoughtful. They said the same thing of the NGE and we all know how that was received. But, surely SOE *must* be totally honest and looking out for their loyal customers, right?
No they're not.
They're embracing the idea so they get both ends of the deal - the sub fee *and* the RMT money. Come on people. It's clear as crystal. The only thing SOE is dedicated to is their bottom line. If they *really* cared, they would be putting more effort into improving some of the games under their umbrella for the players who still loyally play them in hopes that they will. But they don't. They just soak up whatever revenue they can while doing the absolute minimum with them. Meanwhile, they're negotiating deals with some RMT company to expand their "sanctioned RMT" business. Yeah, their hearts are really with the players.
As for those saying that it's "urban legends" or "myths" that RMT can have an adverse effect on the game... you're full of it. I've seen it happen, before and after, in FFXI, as one example. RMT was running rampant in that game for a while, inflation was out of control, and it was driving people away - especially new players. The lowest level, newbie gear was out of reach for many new players as they simply couldn't make enough to afford it. So they gave up.
And don't even get me started on the higher level rare stuff. RMT groups would actively and openly monopolize certain named mobs who dropped these items, 24/7, so they controlled the market on them, driving the prices up and up and up to the point that people would feel they had no choice *but* to buy the money if they were ever to get one. They would routinely mob-train competing groups of legit players also trying to get claim of the mob. It was to the point that SE altered the mob aggro code so that could no longer happen. But the RMT is harmless right? Has no effect on the game or on legit players, right? It's all just a myth. Yeah.. just keep those blinders on.
See, it's not only the economy that's screwed with. The tactics RMT groups use to get their gil are often intrusive to other players as well - monopolizing mobs, overrunning areas, flooding market with certain items that they can fish/craft/farm 24/7... and on and on. Some have gone as far as trying to hack accounts. So when you're supporting RMT in a game not designed with it in mind (ie. Second Life, etc), you're also condoning those kinds of actions. Good job.
SE finally got serious and started aggressively combatting it in FFXI, removing billions upon billions of ill-intended gil from the economy and making a few in-game changes to certain high-demand items... The result? The economy has come back down to earth; it's now lower in many cases than it was even when I first started 4+ years ago at the NA PC launch. Items that were in the millions are now under 1 mil in price. People just starting out can actually realistically afford gear now that was once out of their reach.
See, that's the difference.
SE, Blizzard, and other companies see RMT for the problem it is, from all angles, and the effect it has on their players long term and aggressively combat it.
SOE sees RMT only as untapped $$$ in their pockets and embrace it wholeheartedly - while still having the gall to try coming out smelling like a rose by saying they're "doing it to protect the players". They're not protecting anyone.. last I checked "non-sanctioned" RMT was alive and well in EQ2. SOE's merely getting their cut of the pie.
So believe whatever you want. Tell yourself whatever you will about how "harmless RMT is on a game". I've seen empirical evidence of it with my own two eyes that it absolutely does have an effect. Of course, I speak only for those of us who believe in playing the game and not buying our way through.
It does sorta amuse me when the people whose progress in a game can be tracked back to charges on their credit card or bank statement, beyond the sub fee, insist RMT has no affect on the game. Well of course not.. Not for you. Not when you see everything you want in the game as "just a transaction away" and buy your achievements instead of actually playing the game as designed. For those who actually still believe in *playing* the game and don't feel entitled to "keep up because they have a job and can't play as much" it has a very real effect. I've seen both extremes of it. So, no, it's not "urban legend" or myth. It's quite real. Though, I realize it's hard to see that when you won't look past your own nose.
I've read all the reasons and rationales and excuses. It all comes back to "I don't want to have to put in the same effort others do to get what I want, so I shouldn't have to. ANd as long as I get what I want out of it, who cares how anyone else is affected by it". The classic "me me me" attitude.
Strange how Smedley says this new service will be better because it can deal with fraud more effectively since most fraud occurs overseas and acknowledges that Blizzard did the right thing by suing Peons4hire, an American company, yet he can't explain why SOE has never sued Playerauctions, also an American company, which made millions off of sponsoring classic EQ gold sales when Ebay removed them.
It's just more bullshit.
Originally posted by Hexxeity
Because with sanctioned RMT, they get a cut of the transaction PLUS two subscriptions (the farmer and the buyer).
And they don't have to worry about balancing the amount of currency coming into the game, as it is all earned legitimately, as opposed to being "created from nothing" when someone buys gold from them directly.
I don't like any form of RMT, but it's true that the Roma Victor and item shop game models of creating items and gold for sale out of thin air, is far worse for the game economy than buying from a famer that earned the item or gold legitimately in game thru expended effort.
Because Smedley and co don't count on people, like yourself, to look at the situation that closely or critically. They rely on the people who will buy into everything they're told and not question it. And, besides, if it means more $$$ in the end for them, what does a little hypocrisy matter?
I think I understand the market reasonably well and so does SOE. This is why there are only two RMT servers in EQ2 following the poll they did. This is why they did not at that time make them all RMT. I'd say that is better evidence than your presumtions about me being unhappy, etc.
QFT
I couldnt have put this better myself.
Its interesting that in these discussions, the 'against' always come off as really emotional and the 'for' come off as seeming generally interested in a reasoned discussion.
That said, no matter how many people 'quote for truth', there is nothing empirical about 'what you see with your own eyes'. That is annecdotal. You are giving *your opinion* of what you observed in FFXI. There are a million variables you are overlooking and any number of conclusions that could be drawn that arent the same as yours.
Some basic concepts need to be agreed upon or these discussions just come down to inflamed ideologues of one type or another screaming from the mountain while their like minded supporters cheer them on and their detractors either leave the debate or jeer equally loudly.
The first is that people ALWAYS look out for themselves and look for the path of least resistance. This is human nature hard wired into our DNA and there really isnt anything wrong with this basic instinct. If you claim you're immune, you're a liar. Perhaps in *online games* you are some self perceived shining beacon of virtue, but I suspect that *somewhere in life* (probably somewhere a LOT more important), you are cutting a corner or acting out of self interest. If not, then congratulations - you are in the fractional percentage of super humans.
The second is that corporations exist to provide profit to their shareholders and an income to those who work for them. ALL of us work for SOME corporation unless we're self employed, UNemployed, or govt employed (which amts to the same b/c govt cash comes from TAXES which come from corp/employees income). If a corporation being driven by profit is somehow a disturbing shock to you, you have some issues to work through if you want to live under capitalism.
And keep in mind, I doubt many "cooperative" social models would place a high importance on video gaming and let you spend 12 hrs a day talking about, complaining about, and playing MMOs since the majority of people on earth think this is all childish BS. Maybe the corporate model isnt so bad, eh?
All of these drives - the drive for profit, the drive of self interest, the tendency of people to be lazy - they can all be dangerous and destructive. Society is about people coming together and agreeing on rational limits to keep humanity as a whole healthy. Inevitably the lines move over time one way or the other and folks exist who choose to break/stretch the rules.
What most suggest here, because they have a VERY extreme viewpoint, is that HUGE effort be put in to completely counteracting two of the basic drives, rather than SOME effort being put in to LIMITING the impact of these drives while also SATISFYING another (profit).
If the devs were to say "no more new content or bug fixes for X number of months while we completely re-engineer the system to stop farmING and then we'll probably have a yearly blackout to block whatever they come up with", MAYBE the zealots on these threads would cheer. DOUBTFUL as I suspect the disgruntled are always disgruntled. MOST players would say 'huh?' and then eventually get annoyed with lack of bug fixes, bored with lack of content, and leave.
The game with the most farming (WoW) has the highest subscriber base (by FAR) and makes the most money. The game where farming is legendary, Lineage, is solidly number 2. Games with official RMT from day one THRIVE (Second Life). What does this tell you about the importance of this issue? (no matter HOW impt it is to you). Thats pretty empirical.
EQ2, like FFXI, has a very insignificant number of subs. So the sample size becomes much more specific. It is possible that the only folks left playing these niche games are comitted game zealots. Or at least some sizeable percentage is. In this case, if you're down to like 100,000 people and 20% of them feel this is a HUGE issue, then the corporation has no choice but to do SOMETHING.
What I wonder though, is why the emphasis on RMT and farmERS. I suppose all of you still want the mechanisms in place to allow legitimate farmING, right? So its ok for players who have the luxury of 200hrs a week of play time to monopolize the market for high end items. Just as long as its not some guy in China doing it for cash. Or perhaps there should just be no high end items and no differentiation at all? After all, not everyone has the same amount of money or same amount of playtime, therefore everything should be artificially leveled and a standard grey suit can be handed out at lvl 1.
I dont see how you can even begin to address RMT in a reasonable way without speaking to this broader discussion. In life, self interest causes people to always envy those who have more than them (doesnt really matter if you have $1, or $1M, someone always has more). In life, there isnt a lot you can do about it short of becoming some sort of revolutionary (which always ends stupidly and badly) or some sort of criminal (which is very high risk).
In persistent world gaming, the same psychological drivers are there, but the rules are different. There is an almighty you can complain to about "unfairness" - the developers who, in this case, are "god". You can ask the universe to change its rules.
So if you're going to ask the universe to change its rules, what are you asking for specifically? "No farmers!" just trades one inequity (folks with more cash than time) for another (folks with more time than cash)
Wow!! Such a thorough bashing of ignorance. I wish I was as eloquent. It's heartening to see someone well educated in the ways of the world speak up.
Now if we could only kick the village idiots out of our village, we could live happier lives. (After all, we wouldn't have as much stress from idiots trying to create mountains out of molehills.)
OK, what happens when your officially sanctioned RMT gear is nerfed by SOE's capricious developers?
What happens when, on the whim (or mistake) of some codejockey some item is debased that you've paid actual money for?
I know that there have been RL lawsuits over virtual transactions/items/property in Second Life.
When we talk about real money, we're talking about people getting pissed when they discover that they've been ripped off, particularly by the corporation running the entire show, and profits from RMT.
This to me is an incredible can of worms. Restricting it to specific servers might give it the air of being a voluntary thing...but you can bet that there's someone with deep pockets and a law degree out there who can smell an opportunity here to get in on the game as well. I"m not talking about the game everyone else is playing, but Smedley's "let's pick the pockets of our customers" game.
Never bring a disgruntled SWG vet into a discussion about Sony...it degenerates into an accusation of how the company robs, pillages and roughs up puppies.
If a company wants RMT, then they understand the risks of what they're doing. You did not attend the meetings that happened prior to the policy, you did not read the risk assessments that would've been produced, nor did you see the financial projections of what the move meant. You are working on limit knowledge of the inner working of the company and basing your argument on personal bias.
They change something you bought, then take them to small claims court. You may even get your money back, though not the time you put into the effort. It's not that difficult to do...to win, well that's a bit more of a problem.
Oh, I don't think so.
I think they see dollar signs, and think they can use a EULA as a shield to save them from dealing with the consequences of their actions. SOE thought they were covered with the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion, when they advertised it to their players with features they KNEW they would removed from the game only a few weeks after they released it. Their customers knew they had been ripped off, rage was building, and eventually formal legal action would have resulted. It took only a short time before SOE took the unprecedented step of offering refunds on ToOW, something they stated flat out before they'd never do, in the face of this firestorm of their own creation.
Their vaunted risk assesment abilites seem to have failed them then, a consequence of their own greed.
In China (admittedly not the US) courts have held that if you pay real money for virtual items, there are real money consquences for messing with virutal items.
Second Life has had to deal with this, and the courts have not dismissed legal action against them out of hand. Paying real money for virtual items opens up a new can of worms.
I disagree with your example. Star Wars is a different set of circumstances, they probably didn't have to refund people for the pre-order, they did to attempt to salvage any shred of their now defunct reputation. It did not go to court, and I feel that the courts would side with the company. Admittedly this is because I feel that the American legal system is heavily biased towards companies at the moment.
And yes they see dollar signs, but any decision made in a large company is done with a risk assessment attached to it. So I still stand by my claim that they have thought out the possible ramifications of this move.
Imagine you go to a movie. You paid for the ticket, so you expect to see a movie. But, every 10 minutes they show commercials. Wouldnt you be angry? You paid your money for the ticket. That should be enough, there is no other reason to show adds during showtime other then excessive cash milking.
I believe your opinion here is the extreme one. I mean, what is the point of video games? Its to have fun, right? So how can you have fun if the game suddenly lets someone with a fat wallet instantly make his character extremely powerful? The whole challenge of ANY competition is to test your skills, NOT your bank account. Imagine Olympic sports allowing for sportsmen to use steroids... but only if they can afford to pay a really big penalty fee. Some will be able to afford it. but would that sport be fair and fun? No.
In any video game, there HAS to be equal opportunity - your bank account should not have any weight in it. If something is really hard to get (rare item for example), then if I do overcome the challenge and obtain that item, I want to be proud of my achievement, I want to know that if someone else also has that item, that means that they also had to go through the same challenge. if they can just buy that item, then the whole point of the game becomes invalid.
Furthermore, the fact that some people are able to "bypass" normal means of obtaining something forces others to do so as well - you gotta be competitive or quit playing. Next thing you know, people without money leave the game altogether, and people with money keep buying new items. Who wins? the company that takes service fee for each transaction, because since every single item is virtual, they dont really have to spend ANY resources making it. Who is the biggest losers? regular players, because they have to spend extra time farming for items they normally wouldnt be forced to do so. The only alternative to that would be buying those items - spending more and more real cash on something that doesnt really exist. This is a perfect scenario for SOE - clients spend time and effort while the company earns a profit. SOE just couldnt resist that one.
I think your logic is in wrong order. Its not most farming=highest subs. Rather, Highest subs=most farming. Its common logic. Also, I doubt highly you can call Second Life as THRIVING.Here I agree with you.
No, its not OK to make someone who can spend 200hrs a week to monopolize the market. But its not OK to promote unfair competition either. Lets resort to common logic:
Lets assume the game has 100000 active casual players and 1000 active hardcore players.
Scenario A:
The game has strict anti-farming policy. no RMT whatsoever. Most likely all 1000 hardcore players would have most of the high end items. They would split their time between farming, PvPing, trading, exploring and what have you.
Scenario B:
No strict anti-farming policy OR there is a legit RMT system. Most hardcore players would be spending a lot more time farming now, due to the fact that RMT allows them to actually make good money. Furthermore, a lot of casual players would try to do the same because suddenly a large number of high end items are on the market available to anyone who can purchase it (no effort involved). Some players will not have the luxury of that added effort nor can they afford money to purchase those items.
Result? Scenario B has a lot more high end items. A lot of people are doing excessive farming. There will be much bigger rift between different types of players: hardcore, casuals who can afford the extra effort or money and casuals who cant afford it.
Scenario B will have a vastly greater number of cases where one player will have unfair advantage over another.
The "fair" type of competition is when the game allows you be equally competitive with anyone else without the influence of external factors like bank account. After all, the games we play were made for us to level our characters by investing our time into fighting, trading, manufacturing, harvesting, exploring, traveling. Show me one game where it was written on the box "Join the endless adventure directly connected with your bank account, the richer you are - the more powerful you get".
The ONLY inequity that is fair in this case - when a person has more time and/or skills then the other. And THATS what the spirit of competition is, spend more time to increase your skills to become a better player, not spend more time and money to buy your top character with uber gear in 5 minutes. Are these games about competition of skills or bank accounts?
/agree Jimmy the man
As regarding companies making selling legal is ok with me and they give people the oppertunity to not be scammed. Thousands of people get scammed every day by so called people selling stuff... they never see the money again so a legal trusted third party company provides a safer environment for all players who decide to spend their real life money to get advantage over the hardcore players that wants to earn it themselves.
It's fairly simple to get rid of the majority of farmers in all games as long as the creators of the game is willing to change the game mechanics.
The monsters, spaceships drop stuff all the time... stupid really... I mean even animals drop stuff and money remove the gold drop from wandering monsters and just make the quest monsters have stuff drop and cash drop. Ofcourse the farmers will probably try to create a marco which enable them to send their character to quest as well. :)
Spaceships as in EVE when they blow up would most likely in reality never leave anything but scrap to salvage and the bounty systems is so stupid I can never understand why it is there at all. In fantasy games give the npc inteligent creatures which would be using money tp drop a few coins and only bosses drops items of any value.. the rest an axe worth a few bucks... the farmers would have to have an insane amount of farming to be able to get anywhere.
Another issue is crafting stuff... people would ofcourse sell the minerals but then again... make the raw materials unable to transact between players then onyl the finished item however also a limit of how much a person can craft everyday would make it more balanced.
The amount of stuff and money in most mmo games is way too much... if it was in real world the inflation would be insane. :)
Also to prevent that items which is unique can be sold it's should not be possible to remove it from the account at all.
However I still support the fact that people should be able to buy an account with all it's belongings and it should be legalized in all mmo.
If a person has too much money to dump on a mmo let him do so.
But as for game balance the game creators are not creative enough to find a solution to this.. I would go as far as saying they are actually not willing to stop this at all... because if people can buy everything for real money who needs to play to get any stuff anyway. :)
The only thing is that I pity all those who get scammed by other players everyday... they ruin the games in the end.
If I had the power I would probably round them all up and send them to a place they don't want to be. Shame on you guys.
As for pve there is not balancing needed because you're playing against the computer anyway and it don't mind loosing because you had all the uber stuff in the world... in pvp however some players has an unfair advantage not because they're skilled but they have a huge wallet. :)
I hope in the future there will be a mmo that is very balanced when it comes to pvp so far I've tried a huge bunch and well the powerdude will almost always win.
So in short I appeal to the game creators to be a little more interested in actually making a good game instead of counting the cash... however as long as the game company is interested in one thing as most humans are earning money... mmo will always be unbalanced and have scammers, cheaters, farmers or whatever...
Please don't blame the evils of human nature on bad game design. The scammers and such are going to go on no matter how good the game design. There's absolutely nothing the game designers can do to stop this. They can block spammers and offers in game, sue companies that attempt to violate contractual agreements, and ban the accounts of those that make use of services not allowed by the agreed upon contract.
I read a lot of ranting about how companies are just in it for the 'almighty dollar.' Yes, they are. The same reason you go to work every day, they work their asses off making the best mediocre game they can in hopes that they will get a loyal customer base. In an attempt to retain customers, make their own lives easier, and maybe -- just maybe! -- make a little more money, they might support a sanctioned form of RMT. Does this make them evil? Does it make a terrible game? Nope. Just makes them human (just like the rest of us).
Oh, and guess what? That dollar they're chasing is just as artificial as those games we all play. When was the last time you could take a piece of paper money to a bank and exchange for its equivalent in a precious metal? That dollar is only as valuable as the time it took you to earn it. My time may or may not be more valuable than the dollar I spend or earn buying or selling in-game currencies. Because I have 500 platinum pieces to my name doesn't give me a better character than anyone else. I still have to grind my toon up to level 80 just like everyone else. (Sorry, but those that buy toons generally take as much time really learning that toon as getting those levels to begin with. Exceptions do exist to my rule of thumb as always.)
For those complaining about how RMT ruins a game, these RPGs are not the places to look for your arguements. If anything, RMT actually makes things more interesting and fun when done right in RPGs. (As usual, exceptions can exist.) Look to the web-based games and micro-transaction fee games. There you will see games that can and have been completely broken by such methods. I'll use Travian as an example. (Travian is a web-based RTS that plays out over months: up to a year or more in some cases.) Originally, you got a plus account that let you do a few more things, but it wasn't an advantage that couldn't be overcome by resourceful players. Sometime into the game's life, they introduced a gold system where you could literally buy your development. Certain limits on this exist, but as long as the player is willing to pony up the money, they get better resource production, stronger armies, and chances to instantly build up villages. A great player going it completely free of charge will do better than most that are paying, but they'll never win.
In the end, I only have questions to ask. Why is it that players hate RMT systems, especially when they have options to avoid it? The only answers I can see are ones that I don't want to post here. (Everyone else has already posted them, even if they can't see the responses in the response.)
I am passionately against RMT because when I choose to play a game that forbids it, other players violate the rules and my rights to play in such a venue.
The real question should be, why don't gamers who desire RMT stick with games that support it?
Smedley's whole shtick is about how this helps players when it really serves SOE and that is why people are offended by his comments.
Example: I work for a company that does translations of documents into English. For some customers, theres an easier and much cheaper way to do what they need to do. When I serve those customers, I advice them to take the cheaper/easier road. I could do it the other way, more expensive one. They wouldnt know, and I wouldnt break any laws or regulations. Its perfectly legal. but it would be UNETHICAL.
Same here, squeezing that extra buck to give some Joe with rich daddy an advantage in something so trivial as a computer game, which supposed to be fun, is simply UNETHICAL. If you agree with RMT, you either BOUGHT from it, or you SOLD on it. If you dont buy or sell virtual items for real currency, you take away fun from people that dont do it.
Good example.. Now imagine what would happen if suddenly ALL fake money would be made LEGIT. If you are not in a business that makes fake money, wouldnt you be pissed that your neighbor suddenly became a millionaire JUST because his printer is really good? Im sure you would feel left out. Any discrimination feels crappy, and this is discrimination - the rich will become more powerful while the poor just look on helplessly. After awhile, they unsubscribe and uninstall.
I haven't tried any web games, so I cannot comment there. The ONLY exception to RMT that doesnt really bother me is in Eve. As far as I know, you cant "twink" your character n anyway, you can just buy your monthly subscription with in-game currency. This way you can play for free if you are successful in-game AND, at the same time, it doesnt really affect my character in any way... as far as I know that is. Any other system that does affect your character or your gameplay do cause unequal opportunities, thus making fun less fun and more farm.
How an I avoid it if someone else is doing it right in front of me? This is not a single player game, any action from me, you and the rest of the world affect ALL of us one way or another. Playing with someone who used RMT is JUST LIKE PLAYING WITH A HACKER - you have no control over the hacker, you cannot influence him, you cannot tell him to stop, you cannot compete with him unless you start hacking. Not to say RMT kills immersion! Thats killer of any decent roleplay right there!
I hope people will understand that RMT brings a lot more negative aspects for those who dont like it then positive ones to those who do. The fact that any given game supports any kind of RMT eventually will make the game virtually unplayable by spammer farmers. It doesnt matter if the game will have separate servers with/without RMT - those nasty farmers will just keep popping trial accounts and spamming servers that supposedly forbid RMT.
I call a challenge to RMT supporters - answer the following question honestly please:
- Have you ever bought virtual currency for real money in a SINGLE-PLAYER RPG?
PS: Im being specific with the term "virtual currency" because I dont want people to say they bought expansions, additional premium content or any other content that isnt available by normal means.
I'm not exactly sure how this will ever affect me, being that I hate handing over any cash besides the monthly fee lol =/
You know, SOE has already maximized profit when they screwed a couple 100k of player out of SWG. If they expect anything from the public to pay for their broke down games, they are fooling themselves. I have watched them release some nice game, then turn around after initial sales, and the 14-20 month lifespan of the casual MMO player, and screw the game so badly that nobody wants to play it. They DO NOT care about the gaming community, only themselves.
I know business is business, but I think the MMO players out there ,are about tired of stupid companies taking advantage of us. I truely hope that other MMO companies that were listed in that meeting, do not go the route of "Smedly the terrible".
If SOE was even the slightest bit concerned with anything but profit, they would get back some playerbase, but as it stands right now, this looks like a desperate move to try and gain back some income from their ever failing business decions makers. After the SWG collapse, every MMO they have touched has turned to failure. Either Smedley Needs to go, or whomever is hiring the quacks who think that a Survey on a Target Audience is correct. Matrix online was a failure, SWG a failure after the CU/NGE, Etc,,,Etc,,, a very obvious trend. I think that Filing with the insurance companies on Profeitt/Loss, is making them more than the actual games.
It is always been said that any press is good press, this is just another example of Marketing tactics on SOE's part. If BIOWARE-Austin and other companies Start lettng SOE produce and exploit their games, then I fear a Great drought in this Industry is coming. I just wish Bill Gates or somone with the Financial backing could step forward and create the Next Generation of Video games and run all the competitors out of business.
They are now talking about Implementing the Gameguard Type hackshield into the New line of Next Generation Processors, it seem like the Companies have learned something from the Communist Party about controlling the population. You WILL, buy our virtual items, you WILL use the antihack software, you WILL put up with the constant ruining of online gaming Communities, Etc,,,Etc,,
It is like the gas prices to me as a gamer, I want to play them so I HAVE to pay. You have to drive to work, therefore you WILL pay that 4-6$ a gallon.
Take this Advice SOE, Fire Smedley, Get some real programmers with Innovative thought, Listen to the Voices of Gamers, Not Survey/Research companies and Just keep making the Kiddie Consoles, Stay out of our MMO market, it will be nothing but more dissappointments if you don't.
The Live Gamer thing is nothing but a joke. The more I read about it, the more pissed I become. Any Company that make a Deal with them looses my business, and I may be only one person, but after 20 years of Gaming, I think I have a large Circle that spreads around the world, and remember the Rules of Marketing.
You can Make one person happy and they will tell A friend, But you piss off one and he tells ten, and they tell ten, etc, etc,,,