Live Gamer RMT Sales Partner With SOE, Funcom and Others

DO NOT WANT!

bad bad bad, but expected. RMT happens whatever companies are against it or not. It is costing them SO much (banning/tracking an person cost time and therefor money). So I assume from an companies perspective it is only smart to atleast get an % of these RMT.

I would much prefer companies selling it themselves (without an middleman aka farmers). They can then provide it cheaper. Selling non-excisting stuff means there is no labor involved. Beside the fact it was made once, it only need an admin to clone the item. So I really doubt an company like Funcom and SoE (who if I am correct already provide RMT for specified server from some of there games) would work benifit from working with these companies. Unless they provide the "money" and "ïtems" to the company selling it. This would mean they do not have to items to do it themselves, they would not get farmers and just get money for cloning what they already made.

Also working with an RTM company means they have control over it. They can even in cooperation limit it to certain servers.

So RTM site are there to stay, however the best way to fight the illigal RTM sites and there army of farmers would be to work with an RTM provider and have control over the virtual trade and gain some money from it at the same time.

This is yet another example of The Man catering to the lowest common denominator (online gold BUYERS, not sellers).  *sigh*

A shame to see the MMORPG industry falling so low.

I Oped this news item yesterday   http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/159821 with all due respect . It still does not make it right to make it legit.

After repeated failure to create any decent MMO ,

the companies in question decided that it is not enough that they take 15$ a month subscription , but they will add an item shop. Alas indirectly , so they will be able to cash on the rights of now "legal" goldsellers to paddle their wares.

I would readily avoid this companies and their products from now on - unless they remove subscriptions, as other item shop games do.

But sadly i see Funcom is involved , meaning AOC will be item shop game.

Incredibly disapointing

Not at all surprising.  Funcom was one of the first to whore out in-game ad space, so this is a natural step for them.  Likewise, SOE has been trying to break into the RMT market since the Sony Exchange servers were introduced.

I have never played on servers where this kind of thing is sanctioned, and I doubt I will ever play a game that is involved with livegamer.com.

so, the game companies want a piece of (their own) cake that is out there ....

What I don't get, is why they simply don't do it themselves? As SOE with their Station Exchange (aolthough limited to US), or EA with Ultima Online, where you can buy tokens from them for specific stuff, advanced characters, etc.

Personally, I always thought, that Blizzard could make more money, if they offered advanced characters. Make a max-level one a server, you get to buy a, say lv40 character, if you want and find the grind boring. Considering that they "made it easier to level from 20-50" or whatever, it shows they know many are not too keen on leveling multiple chars (and that their content must be pretty boring if they now make it faster (i.e. less quests necessary)).

*shrugs* oh well. money makes the (gaming) world go round. We can be glad if some MMOs continue existing. See how fast it went for Fury.....

I know why big companies like the idea of RMT.  They don't have to put development dollars into finding ways to prevent it, and they get a cut of the profits.

I don't understand people who don't see a problem with it though.  The main reason many people play online games is to escape some part of their own reality and compete on a level playing field.  If I'm physically weak, I can't win in real-life sporting events, but I might be able to play a beefy warrior in an MMO and smack people around.  If I'm financially poor, I can't have nice things in my home, but I could outfit a virtual home with all kinds of neat stuff that I crafted or looted myself.

Adding RMT as a legitimate thing takes all that away.  Now the rich get to win here too.

I know why companies want this.  I know why rich kids want it.  Unfortunately, they're the only voices that matter.

*sigh*

Trying to steal market from IGE and other chinese RMT companies?

Originally posted by Lobotomist

But sadly i see Funcom is involved , meaning AOC will be item shop game.

Hope that clears thngs up.

---

Originally posted by quixadhal
I know why big companies like the idea of RMT.  They don't have to put development dollars into finding ways to prevent it, and they get a cut of the profits. 

---

I disagree - if they do a deal with an offical company for RMT they will have to spend more money/effort cracking down on the non licensed RMT people.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I would readily avoid this companies and their products from now on - unless they remove subscriptions, as other item shop games do.

But sadly i see Funcom is involved , meaning AOC will be item shop game.

Incredibly disapointing

 

Next time...read the article before posting ^^.

~HappyGaming

I guess SOE has found a future for themselves after their new games fail and EQ fades away.  They will farm gold in WoW and sell it.

Well I used to feel strongly against gold, item or account buyers. I still believe the later ones should be fought, but mostly because it leads to end game players with little to no knowledge of the game and their character abilities.

But I have changed my mind about gold/item selling buying. Why? Because I recently tried a few free to play MMOs whose business model is based on item mall sales.

I no longer believe it is cheating or unfair. Let's face it... is there a big difference between grinding your in-game gold and items or 'grinding' RL money to pay for those? If you have enough free time to do it the game way... fine. Hope you have fun :) I no longer have the time to do that. But I do have a good job that gets me enough cash to buy any items I want without even a blink, at least at current market prices. Why should my RL work 'grind' be worth less than your in-game one?

In F2P games, the people like me are the ones that actually support the other's free play. So they should love us, instead of looking down at us.

On subscription games, the problem has to be approached differently, of course: there is no 'exchange' like in F2Ps. But... there are bots, gold farmers, inflated prices in all of them. The companies (or most of them) spend a large amount of resources fighting the farmers and botters, resources that could be used to improve the service. I do not condone or use gold selling services for subscription games at the moment, but that's just a matter of personal ethics. Still, wouldn't it be better if companies like Blizzard, SoE, Funcom, PlayNC, etc finally acknowledged that there is a significant part of their customer base that are open to such a service? To clearly state that spending money for game progression by people who have little free time and lots of money is not unfair when compared to spending free time for game progression from people with lots of free time and little money?

I believe so. This would also help control the farmers problem, because they would ultimately wither and die out. It would prevent inflation by giving companies the tools to keep in-game prices under control. It would also most likely increase their income and maybe allow them to lower subscription prices, thus enlarging their customer base.

It makes sense from a business point of view. I would like people to realize it also makes sense from a player's point of view.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, for it tolls for the dedicated crafter.

It seems that SOE's "John Smedley's" cryptic posts about the next Sony MMO, perhaps that one consisting of the DC Comics brand. Could use some sort of RMT system, which if i recall correctly John Smedley had stated. That the upcoming DC Comics MMO wouldn't be a subscription based customer model.

The Livegamer.com site also has an interview posted over at GamaSutra.com website.

Link:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16663

GamaSutra via their sister site "Worlds in Motion" had a Q&A with the CEO of LiveGamer.com Andy Schneider.

It seems that LiveGamer will be offering a secure platform system for these RMT trades. Be it a middleware developed specifically for this or an in-house bureau of their own customer support team.

Let's see how this stuff develops with new MMO titles coming down the pipe. Or some of the lesser performer MMO's in the SOE catalog might get retrofitted. (perhaps Vanguard ala the EQ2 Station Exchange model but with a "LiveGamer" treatment).

hmmm. kinda glad I am growing out of the mmo phase.   Eve model works simply because money gets vacumed out of the economy  just as fast as it gets brought in.  A single alliance battle can drain a bucket load of isk out of the economy.

In a game such as Anarchy Online. It simply doesn't. Credits do not go anywhere in that game other than traveling thru other players hands. I saw  this coming from a mile away ever since that fluff item mall was anounced. Not really fluff anymore now is it. What are you all paying sub fees for again?  Why do some items cost more credits than what all of the characters on a single account are allowed to hold?

If companys wan't me to accept something like this. They better introduce big money sinks such as in Eve with clone costs and ship insurance costs.  Which last I was aware insurance didn't even come close to rebuying a well kitted vessal back.  But it is enough to help negate the cost unless you loose a 800+ mill ship everyday.  Then it would just be stupid to keep getting insurance.

 Funcom is below the level  of what I think about Asian games.  They do little to fix the monopoly that controls supposedly public zones. They do nothing to drain their own economy of credits.  I watched the economy literally double in price from around august to september this year.   This is in a 6ish year old game which should be fairly stable at this point. There hasn't been a huge influx of new players for quite sometime, nore would I say a great loss of the playerbase.  Since the majority who stick with it have been doing so for years.  Sure theirs a turnover rate. But rarely do those short term players make it to a high enough lvl to affect the economy as far as bots or high end loots go.

Simply amazing after that speech given by funcom saying they would not be doing this.    And all the harping I took on this site in the AO section when I freaked out because of that stupid gold buying survey done on the AO forums.

Whats a monthly fee for again? ooohhhhh.. hmmmmm   ....

Edited in to be more clear on what survey i was refering too.

Resistance is futile...

In all seriousness, people need to lighten up.  Not only is rmt in very high demand, but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Resistance is futile...

but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

Just wait until you find out that it's all bind on pickup.

The problem with this business model is it gives developers incentive to increase the grind so people will use the service.  Free to play games with RMT built in are invariably grindfests. Now you'll see subscription games built the same way. At least more so than they already are. If RMT is evil poor game design is the root of that evil. If games were fun to play all the way through people wouldn't want to buy virtual property to avoid having to play them. The solution is obvious. Build MMOs that don't suck and that people want to continue to play after the first couple of months.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Resistance is futile...

In all seriousness, people need to lighten up.  Not only is rmt in very high demand, but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

1. AO is Sub based payment method, commerial  based ,and item mall based.   

2. Funcoms lead person said they would not be doing this to their game in his oh so mighty speech awhile back.  

The reason this works in Eve.Simple.

1.Eve polices bot farmers which is part of what I expect for a monthly fee. (a level playing field.) 

2. Eve efficiantly drains its economy of isk.  just as well if not better than the ways isk are brought into the economy.

3.Lets also note, they  do not provide this service thru a 3rd party.The isk is brought (suppose to be brought) into game thru normal methods of a person playing.  So a this 3rd party service could very well  infest a game such as Ao with numerous bots. 

Reasons  this is bad for Funcom and I assume this will be used in AO.

1. A very , and I do mean very small group of players control unique encounters.  They run the raidbots so its their rules or the highway.     Their is not enough community to be able to opose these bots and expect to settle back in after words and mix into the crowd.  One org did this awhile back and was hunted by everyone ((The sheep herders and the sheep)) and eventually split up due to the fact they were not able to blend back into the population when they wanted.   I believe it was called Mafia Din Romainia .  4 soldiers I believe, Out Damaged a 40+ man raidforce in APF.   And they were hounded from then on, until basically MDR was no more. I dont know exactly or why they split. I do think it is safe to assume tho they got tired of the atention that was thrown their way (((by the sheep herders and sheep)) after a few of these stunts..

2. The reason number 1 is such a big deal. That is probably what the majority of this gold being bought will be used to buy. So these players essentially not only control certain playfields but they also have a chance to really abuse this system to god knows what end.

3.  Anarchy Online does not take credits out of the economy.   It simply doesn't. Money changes hands but it never gets vacumed out. Except for the new alt or player that needs a 5 mill yalm once in a characters life time. Which is why this service will not be any good  for players who have been playing a year or 2 currently. They have their mains for the most part kitted.  This is only screwing over the new player, stagnating the playerbase even more.

 So now not only is it pretty impossable to make credits to buy your Shadowlands weapon or Symbs at the lvl its ment to be used. (if your new). Not talking twink gear just what would be considered average or below average. 

 But its rewarding those who can farm these items on mains to screw the new player. Instead inforceing the idea  to help fellow faction members out..   There was a reason Ao was always mentioned as one of the best communitys. This gold selling thing if introduced can possably destroy whats left of the decent community.   

Fees to me do not only pay for Server maintenance, is also insures that i get  a level playing field, Along with semi balanced mechanics, and Customer service.    Funcom has 3 ways of earning income from this game currently. Soon to be a 4th ((not including box costs))   And the economy is still way outta whack.  Spawns are farmed and monopolized as well as entire playfields by a small group of players.  Which is general home to non-instanced mobs that drop an assortment of items in all of the game. That characters essentially need.

All this Gold buying does is re-inforce paying for loot rights from those who monopolize this spawn and essentially don't need anything other than a lazymans way to farm.

I do not see how I can point it out anymore clearer than this as far as Funcom and AO is concerned.

After skimming over the comments, I have this question: who is most affected by the move? Players or gold farmers?  I do not see anyone talk on behalf of the gold farmers, who would be losing their job and their company setup.  They should be up in arms.

Instead, I see many objections on ground of morality.  That is absurd.  You can criticise SoE for selling, but you can do nothing to criticise the gold farmer who is farmer Boss XYZ 24/7 and simply kill-stealing anything that moves.  SoE can effectively remove the gold farmer by making it totally unprofitably.  The RL money goes to SoE, not the gold farmer.  I sure think SoE deserves it more than the annoying gold farmer, and hopefully, this will help finance more free expansions.

I see arguments about companies raising grinding levels to force people to buy.  No no, not unless SoE is monopoly in the MMO market.  Competition will ensure that games are make to be enjoyed, and unless everyone enjoys grinding, someone else will make a less grinding game to attract the non grinders.

I see arguments about inflation, which in most essense is a very valid argument.  Item decay, money sink (some can be fun, such as potions, housing rental), all can be used, but eventually, as we all level up we will be rich.  As we all get rich, inflation will occur for our alts.  That is as realistic in RL as in games.  Unless we do not use the capitalist model of money trade in game, it will be inevitable.  Luckily its only a general price level increase, meaning the rate of exchange of items (relative prices) still reflects the relative popularity.  So a blue sword is still worth 2 green swords, even though the prices of both has doubled in 2 months.  The ultimate victim?  True newbies, first timers, new migrants from another server.

RMT is here to stay.  There is hardly any fool proof method to get rid of them.  Changing the gameplay to try to kill them is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Legitimizing it, and controlling it, preferrably in an open manner will help regulate the impact of RMT.  As long as there are competiting MMO companies, we can still hope that game quality be maintained as each company works out its policy on RMT.  Last but way the most important, goodbye to the bot farmer sitting in front of the temple of XYZ 24/7.  I can finally walk in and take a look at the monsters inside.

I couldn't believe it when I read it, but it doesn't seem to be a 100% thing just yet. People talk about how this will undermine IGN and other companies, i really don't see it that way. IGN will probably carry out its operations but instead they'll probably sell things on this site, obviously not under IGN.

This is good and bad; good in that this will probably allow the companies to actually look into the economy and change things accordingly (not EVE's case, they seem to have things under good control), but now that there is a legit market, you'll probably see people/bots/farmers playing games just for the sake of making money, not that they dont, but not its a lot easier to make money.

I'm in different really, hell if this work out I might even sell an "uber" item or two.

Originally posted by Ecranomical

I couldn't believe it when I read it, but it doesn't seem to be a 100% thing just yet. People talk about how this will undermine IGN and other companies, i really don't see it that way. IGN will probably carry out its operations but instead they'll probably sell things on this site, obviously not under IGN.

 

This is good and bad; good in that this will probably allow the companies to actually look into the economy and change things accordingly (not EVE's case, they seem to have things under good control), but now that there is a legit market, you'll probably see people/bots/farmers playing games just for the sake of making money, not that they dont, but not its a lot easier to make money.

 

I'm in different really, hell if this work out I might even sell an "uber" item or two.

It depends on the business model.  If the new company only sells items, not buy, then no farmer can make money by playing the game.  The only players in the game are those who play for fun, either farming all items or buying some and farming the rest.

I am happy too see the companies taking the reins of vitual trading for money, it will create more revenue for the game and it will be more secure and if they dont do it it will be done by a 3rd party no matter what.

I have an inkling that this will cut down on Farmers from corporations somewhat like eBay took a chunk out of online retailers.

At least I think that's the goal from the side of Game Developers since risking even 10% of your subscribers is a business model affecting decision.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Resistance is futile...

In all seriousness, people need to lighten up.  Not only is rmt in very high demand, but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

Also consider this, at some point the game maker is going to do a cost analysis on every aspect of game play.  Raids, quests, dungeons, repair bills, etc etc etc.  The question they will ask first and formost is, which will make us more money... making the game fun or making it cost more real life money. 

For me, I prefer a game that only has one focus... entertainment.  SOE already fails at launching games that are fun I highly doubt they will be able to balance in RMT into the mix now. 

it is to bad lazy people are ruining this industry.

Although I have not ever bought anything ingame for RL money (yet), even in the couple Free2Play games I play now and then - I have changed from being strongly against RMT to actually considering it an okay and acceptable business now (change coming over last 7-8 years or so).

My reason is simply that IMO it helps eliminate the "weird" difference between MMOs and other hobbies. In practically every other hobby out there you can spend cash to get better options. You can pay to have the best football-coach around 5 times a week (still doesnt mean you will be a star if you havent got the talent), you can pay to get more warhammer models, you can pay to get a better engine in your model-train, etc.

For too long IMO MMO-gamers have tried to hang onto some sort of "special" place for MMOs, different from other hobbies. While at the same time claiming its ridiculous when other people question the healthiness of playing a computer games for X hours a day.

Until we, the MMO players, accept and embrace our hobby being no different than any other hobby - how can we expect others to do the same towards us. How can we expect our spouses, friends, workmates to understand this hobby if we wont even consider it an equal hobby ourselves.

RMT is one of the borders that have kept MMOs outta the league of regular hobbies, because preventing RMT only means that it mostly supports the people who "give" up their Real Lives to grind hours every day in an MMO, while the rest of us claim its not unhealthy to play MMOs.
By accepting RMT we take away some of the pressure of the grinding IMO, and at the same time we make it legal for the players who spend the most time on this hobby to make a little cash outta it - just as if they were the ones building and painting that Model Army we want to have, but do not have the time to make ourselves.

I want "my" hobby to be accepted just as if a friend collect stamps, another plays Soccer 3 times a week, or a third builds his warhammer model army. And embracing RMT is one of the things I think is necessary to make this happen. Doesn't mean you have to use it all the time, but it works to remove the prejudiced opinion that in order to get "somewhere" in a MMO you have to sacrifice your Real Life.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Resistance is futile...

In all seriousness, people need to lighten up.  Not only is rmt in very high demand, but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

 

Where does the line get crossed when a game become more economical to be viewed as a job?  Looking at this as some sort of lottery where you might win a couple bucks ignores important aspects.  What happens when a sizable portion of your server isn't actually playing the game as entertainment, but as an income?  Not much MMO or RPG in that scene. Actually many games/servers are already invested by incoming making farmers, except that they are hired by the online gold sellers, not the game developers.  Do you have a good way to eliminate the farmers?  If not, you are just facing the choice of who is selling the sword or gold to you, SoE or the chinese farmer.  SoE does not need to farm the boss for gold, so with SoE selling, non RMT players can still get a shot at camping the boss.  With the chinese farmer selling, you can forget about zoning in.

 

Also consider this, at some point the game maker is going to do a cost analysis on every aspect of game play.  Raids, quests, dungeons, repair bills, etc etc etc.  The question they will ask first and formost is, which will make us more money... making the game fun or making it cost more real life money.   Not really, unless the majority are RMT players, otherwise excess RMT skewing will kill the game.  For games vested with RMT players now, there is no fun with or without developer selling directly.  The gold farmers already own the gameplay.

For me, I prefer a game that only has one focus... entertainment.  SOE already fails at launching games that are fun I highly doubt they will be able to balance in RMT into the mix now.  If you hate the SoE game, RMT will not affect you, you won't be playing.  If you are a non RMT player, you still have all the same options to play without playing, and if SoE tuned the game to suit only RMT players, you move on.  If you are a RMT player, you gain an additional RMT supplier who is far more reliable and surely 24/7 in business.

 it is to bad lazy people are ruining this industry.  Lazy people will buy through RMT anyway.  They exist and they have the money to buy the game box and subscribe.  Your choice will be to play in that game or move on till you find a game without lazy people.  RMT from developers does not appear to affect your options available.

 

One thing I wonder, will SoE buy back the items from players offering cash?  If not, players cannot make money directly selling to SoE.  Players can try to ebay or sell to gold farmers, but that means competing against SoE, the market maker.  Not a very promising venture, as SoE can always tune supply and RMT prices to kill off competition.

Not surprising that SOE is doing this, but it really is surprising that Funcom is doing this. This is really going to change my mind about Funcom and their future games

... and for those that think that RMT is just veteran players selling their extra gold - It is not. Update your reality with big business that is using bots, credit card frauds, hacking and other suspicious methods.

Originally posted by Resetgun

Not surprising that SOE is doing this, but it really is surprising that Funcom is doing this. This is really going to change my mind about Funcom and their future games

... and for those that think that RMT is just veteran players selling their extra gold - It is not. Update your reality with big business that is using bots, credit card frauds, hacking and other suspicious methods.

Agree, its shady corporations using unethical means to get the gold by hacking and bot-ing, and selling to players.  So if SoE is selling directly, the shady business go bankrupt.  Good for all.

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Resistance is futile...

In all seriousness, people need to lighten up.  Not only is rmt in very high demand, but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

Where does the line get crossed when a game become more economical to be viewed as a job?  Looking at this as some sort of lottery where you might win a couple bucks ignores important aspects.  What happens when a sizable portion of your server isn't actually playing the game as entertainment, but as an income?  Not much MMO or RPG in that scene. 

 

 

Also consider this, at some point the game maker is going to do a cost analysis on every aspect of game play.  Raids, quests, dungeons, repair bills, etc etc etc.  The question they will ask first and formost is, which will make us more money... making the game fun or making it cost more real life money. 

For me, I prefer a game that only has one focus... entertainment.  SOE already fails at launching games that are fun I highly doubt they will be able to balance in RMT into the mix now. 

 

it is to bad lazy people are ruining this industry.

 

hmmm cant be too lazy if they can afford to buy stuff off a rmt, maybe they want to keep up with the rest of the basement dwellers at mommas house but cant because they have a 60 hour workweek. also i would like to point out that in most mmo's i have played all the really awesome gear and items are bind upon pickup, causing no one but that person whom holds it to be able to use it, really think everyones getting worked up about nothing here.

I think this is one way to get the western market into the "buy items" as you play mentality.  So say I have a SWG character and I want to sell it. Or an EQ II account.  Now I can without any issues from SOE but they take a cut? This may lead to a future market war and a virtual black market. Oh I love the internet. 

I don't like this a bit..but I suppose resistance is futile as someone pointed out :(

The danger isn't that this business model will fail but that it will succeed and most other companies will follow suit. They're not going to put the black market RMT sellers out of business. Those people are already more efficient than any gaming company will ever be. It will put them in direct competition with them. That means either the company spends considerable resources trying to stop the black market, which raises their costs, or they end up with a flooded economy by trying to undercut them, which is very bad for gamers. You're looking at the future of online gamng and it is bleak. The idea of rare items in a mmo has always been a joke. Todays rare is tomorrows obsolete. They have to keep moving the finish line to keep people subscribed. This only accelerates the cycle because people can just shell out some bucks and jump to the end. Welcome to keeping up with the Joneses in hyperdrive.

Originally posted by boognish75

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

it is to bad lazy people are ruining this industry.

 

hmmm cant be too lazy if they can afford to buy stuff off a rmt, maybe they want to keep up with the rest of the basement dwellers at mommas house but cant because they have a 60 hour workweek. also i would like to point out that in most mmo's i have played all the really awesome gear and items are bind upon pickup, causing no one but that person whom holds it to be able to use it, really think everyones getting worked up about nothing here.

So your point is that these hard working people want to keep pace with no life losers?  Stop generalizing people.   If people work 60 hours a week, it doesn't justify paying someone else to play the game for them. 

I don't understand where people get this rationalization that spending money on virtual items is somehow ok just because someone plays more than they do.  Whats next?

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Resistance is futile...

In all seriousness, people need to lighten up.  Not only is rmt in very high demand, but there's not much more fun then finding a piece of equipment worth a few hundred dollars.  Why should anyone care about someone's epeen when there's good money to be made?

 

Where does the line get crossed when a game become more economical to be viewed as a job?  Looking at this as some sort of lottery where you might win a couple bucks ignores important aspects.  What happens when a sizable portion of your server isn't actually playing the game as entertainment, but as an income?  Not much MMO or RPG in that scene. Actually many games/servers are already invested by incoming making farmers, except that they are hired by the online gold sellers, not the game developers.  Do you have a good way to eliminate the farmers?  If not, you are just facing the choice of who is selling the sword or gold to you, SoE or the chinese farmer.  SoE does not need to farm the boss for gold, so with SoE selling, non RMT players can still get a shot at camping the boss.  With the chinese farmer selling, you can forget about zoning in.

 

Also consider this, at some point the game maker is going to do a cost analysis on every aspect of game play.  Raids, quests, dungeons, repair bills, etc etc etc.  The question they will ask first and formost is, which will make us more money... making the game fun or making it cost more real life money.   Not really, unless the majority are RMT players, otherwise excess RMT skewing will kill the game.  For games vested with RMT players now, there is no fun with or without developer selling directly.  The gold farmers already own the gameplay.

For me, I prefer a game that only has one focus... entertainment.  SOE already fails at launching games that are fun I highly doubt they will be able to balance in RMT into the mix now.  If you hate the SoE game, RMT will not affect you, you won't be playing.  If you are a non RMT player, you still have all the same options to play without playing, and if SoE tuned the game to suit only RMT players, you move on.  If you are a RMT player, you gain an additional RMT supplier who is far more reliable and surely 24/7 in business.

 it is to bad lazy people are ruining this industry.  Lazy people will buy through RMT anyway.  They exist and they have the money to buy the game box and subscribe.  Your choice will be to play in that game or move on till you find a game without lazy people.  RMT from developers does not appear to affect your options available.

 

One thing I wonder, will SoE buy back the items from players offering cash?  If not, players cannot make money directly selling to SoE.  Players can try to ebay or sell to gold farmers, but that means competing against SoE, the market maker.  Not a very promising venture, as SoE can always tune supply and RMT prices to kill off competition.

Short version:

Yes there are ways to curb the gold selling, first start by banning people for buying gold to put some fear into them for breaking the rules.  However I'm not in a position to make these changes or I would.

I think you need to read what this service is offering.  It is just a middleman for player to player trades.  It will do nothing to get rid of the gold farmers.  In fact it pretty much legitimizes their activities and will make them more profitable most likely.  It only makes dealing with problems harder.  Hacking accounts?  Item/gold dupes?  What happens when these items are sold?  For SOE as an example of their long standing credit/gold dupes in EQ2/SWG and see how they reacted.

I understand that it happens, but that doesn't mean it is good for gaming.  Nor do I think just because people work or don't play as much as the next player that they should be allowed to bypass the games mechanics. 

I simply do not understand the mindset of the player that buys non existant stuff to look better in front of people they don't even know...

Take out the thrill of winning/ earning gear and you remove the second half of the allure of these games. The first half is of course community, but that has already been sold out in favour of the solo casual player. Now it seems the thrill of winning gear is also to be taken away in every game out there, if you want it or not. What is left? Nothing.

I wonder how far off the game is that drops no loot at all? The may as well just continually drop tokens of varying values, that can be added to by RL bought ones, to take to a virtual shop.... The more you solo hack and slash in your 1 man guild as you roam the silent souless world, watching other anon players run by doing the same thing, the more tokens you rack up...

I tend to ignore Asian market games tho, so maybe this exists already. The very thought of how braindead this is all going makes me shudder.

As for the 'well, it happens anyhow, so we might as well make it legal' argument... What a load of BS. Murder happens in RL right? It costs a stack to police right? Might as well make it legal right? You could say the same for any illegal activity. Maybe burgarly would be legal if the government could get away with taxing it... 

Damaging activies controlled and run by the powers that be are still damaging activies, and RL item trading destroys games in the long run. These games companies need to step back away from the spreadsheet for a long while and take a long look at what they are actually doing. They are slaughtering the goose that lays the golden eggs for a one off tasty dinner.

Actually, thinkin about it, you know what?

Originally posted by vesavius

I simply do not understand the mindset of the player that buys non existant stuff to look better in front of people they don't even know...

Take out the thrill of winning/ earning gear and you remove the second half of the allure of these games. The first half is of course community, but that has already been sold out in favour of the solo casual player. Now it seems the thrill of winning gear is also to be taken away in every game out there, if you want it or not. What is left? Nothing.

I wonder how far off the game is that drops no loot at all? The may as well just continually drop tokens of varying values, that can be added to by RL bought ones, to take to a virtual shop.... The more you solo hack and slash in your 1 man guild as you roam the silent souless world, watching other anon players run by doing the same thing, the more tokens you rack up...

I tend to ignore Asian market games tho, so maybe this exists already. The very thought of how braindead this is all going makes me shudder.

As for the 'well, it happens anyhow, so we might as well make it legal' argument... What a load of BS. Murder happens in RL right? It costs a stack to police right? Might as well make it legal right? You could say the same for any illegal activity. Maybe burgarly would be legal if the government could get away with taxing it... 

Damaging activies controlled and run by the powers that be are still damaging activies, and RL item trading destroys games in the long run. These games companies need to step back away from the spreadsheet for a long while and take a long look at what they are actually doing. They are slaughtering the goose that lays the golden eggs for a one off tasty dinner.

 

Actually, thinkin about it, you know what?

Let the idiots go spend their RL cash on non existent items. What do I care?

I will play the games I play with skill and pride and continue to look down on those that need to buy their way to the top, forever knowing that I am better then them simply because I earned what I have.

I will bail out of the genre when it reaches the point there is not one single game left out there for me to play in with pride.

lol dude you spend your hard earned money already to live in a non existent world to escape in if ya really wanna analyze the fact, rofl,

It might seem a bad thing

But ... it's better to have controled RMT than having all those asian sending you private tell to make advertisement.

Or having a lot of bot running arround.

ffa pvp full loot no safe zones will solve that darkfall ftw XD

Originally posted by boognish75

Originally posted by vesavius

I simply do not understand the mindset of the player that buys non existant stuff to look better in front of people they don't even know...

Take out the thrill of winning/ earning gear and you remove the second half of the allure of these games. The first half is of course community, but that has already been sold out in favour of the solo casual player. Now it seems the thrill of winning gear is also to be taken away in every game out there, if you want it or not. What is left? Nothing.

I wonder how far off the game is that drops no loot at all? The may as well just continually drop tokens of varying values, that can be added to by RL bought ones, to take to a virtual shop.... The more you solo hack and slash in your 1 man guild as you roam the silent souless world, watching other anon players run by doing the same thing, the more tokens you rack up...

I tend to ignore Asian market games tho, so maybe this exists already. The very thought of how braindead this is all going makes me shudder.

As for the 'well, it happens anyhow, so we might as well make it legal' argument... What a load of BS. Murder happens in RL right? It costs a stack to police right? Might as well make it legal right? You could say the same for any illegal activity. Maybe burgarly would be legal if the government could get away with taxing it... 

Damaging activies controlled and run by the powers that be are still damaging activies, and RL item trading destroys games in the long run. These games companies need to step back away from the spreadsheet for a long while and take a long look at what they are actually doing. They are slaughtering the goose that lays the golden eggs for a one off tasty dinner.

 

 

 

Actually, thinkin about it, you know what?

Let the idiots go spend their RL cash on non existent items. What do I care?

I will play the games I play with skill and pride and continue to look down on those that need to buy their way to the top, forever knowing that I am better then them simply because I earned what I have.

I will bail out of the genre when it reaches the point there is not one single game left out there for me to play in with pride.

lol dude you spend your hard earned money already to live in a non existent world to escape in if ya really wanna analyze the fact, rofl,

What I am saying is that I don't understand people who feel the need to buy checkmate rather then play the game and win it. The mentality is alien to me.

You wanna analyze some more?

Originally posted by thedrakon

It might seem a bad thing

But ... it's better to have controled RMT than having all those asian sending you private tell to make advertisement.

Or having a lot of bot running arround.

Why is it better?

Both options destroy the game, just one option sees the money go into the corperate pocket is all.

Regardless of what you have been led to believe, it IS possible to control farming and bots in these games, it's just that it costs money to do so.

So, not only are games companies skimping on policing their games (for which you pay a sub in part to have protected), now they are gonna sell you exactly the same thing they hated a short time time ago (before they realised they could buy a new BMW out of it).

Don't p*ss in my ear and tell me it's raining.

The amazing thing is that people are so brainwashed they are buying into this.

  I see this as market evolution at its best. Mmorpgs have been for years becoming mass produced, mass marketed and making TONS of money. As such I suppose I should be happy. Since I have stock in blizzard hehe. That being said I also think that there will be a portion of the market which remains loyal to the subscription only model. Even the old fashioned companies have elite style practices. Collector Editions, Gold editions, people being rewarded for the most hours played. Thats just good old marketing and when I hear people cry I just point out, which do you like best. Everything on sale, or them rewarding the loyal?

At this moment I play Lord of the Rings Online and frankly they suit me the best. A nice general mix of marketing schemes and the Gold sellers and Bots arent rampant at all. Heck Ive actually seen days where bree didnt have 1 gold seller. Mostly thats because the players actively report them and the bots. Then the gms actually kick them out and IP block them.

Well anyways, this is the world we live in. Gota make the best with what we have

I look forward to all the impending lawsuits every time a server crashes or a player loses an item to a bug or glitch.  By putting an official real monetary value on virtual items, these companies are opening themselves up to potential liability.  If a 'Sword of RMT' is being sold for $10, and Bubba the Barbarian loots one but loses it due to a server crash and a roll back, he just lost something worth $10.  Say several hundred or a thousand similar items were lost in that server crash and you're looking at several thousand dollars in loses.  Class action lawsuit territory.

Where this will come to harm the players is that many governments are trying to figure out ways to tax virtual goods.  Put a real monetary value on items and they have an easy way to calculate how much a player 'earned' while playing the game.  What fun it will be to fill out tax forms and having to itemize all the 'Helms of IRS' you looted.  This will also affect the game companies since they will have to keep detailed records of what players loot.

This is an absolutely horribly stupid idea. They cannot beat the gold farmers so they join them. REAL LIFE SUCCESS SHOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH SUCCESS IN-GAME UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!

Looks like AoC and TSW will be the last games I play by FC.

SOE was already junk so I don't care about them.

I hope they stay the hell away from any games I want to play. This may seriously be a deciding factor to whether or not I play a game.

I'm glad I didn't see mythic or EA games on that list....

D.

well, it looks like it's time for a complete return to single player games

(after i get tired of EVE of course)

Originally posted by Obee

Where this will come to harm the players is that many governments are trying to figure out ways to tax virtual goods.  Put a real monetary value on items and they have an easy way to calculate how much a player 'earned' while playing the game.  What fun it will be to fill out tax forms and having to itemize all the 'Helms of IRS' you looted.  This will also affect the game companies since they will have to keep detailed records of what players loot.

 

 

Does that mean if I get pwnt I can declare a loss?  

---

Originally posted by zymurgeist

---

Originally posted by Obee

Where this will come to harm the players is that many governments are trying to figure out ways to tax virtual goods.  Put a real monetary value on items and they have an easy way to calculate how much a player 'earned' while playing the game.  What fun it will be to fill out tax forms and having to itemize all the 'Helms of IRS' you looted.  This will also affect the game companies since they will have to keep detailed records of what players loot.
 
 

---

Does that mean if I get pwnt I can declare a loss?  

---

You made Me LOLZ!!

D.

Originally posted by Killershiver

ffa pvp full loot no safe zones will solve that darkfall ftw XD

Ganking by organised farmer/bot teams to rip everyone of their loots, so the gold farmers can relist them online for sale?  Money driven ganking teams are far more organised and efficient than casual players.  Who will win in a PVP?  A team of professional gamers, sitting next to each other (no need ventrilo) using the best machine possible since they are earning millions a month selling online, or the granny occasional player LFGing and joining a bunch of other grannies, retired officers, tired fathers after-work in a PUG?

This is an open comment to Livegamer.com and any company partnered with them:

The minute your game supports real market trading (or any sort of in-game advertising) is the minute I drop your game.  I refuse to participate in any game that condones or supports real-money trading.  This is an open door for taxation and other assorted costs, and I simply don't need to play your game that much.

For those of you that want to purchase virtual materials for real money, rock on with your bad selves.  I however, will not participate in your game, and yes, I won't let the door hit me on the butt on the way out.

Until they announce the exact details of the partnership I don't see any reason to panic.  As someone mentioned before from Funcom's side that this won't impact AoC at all.  Also, with SOE I very much doubt this will ever hit EQ2 or some of it's other big monthly sub games.  Especially since EQ2 has station exchange already.  This idea is not new to f2p games at all.

Nothing new here guys.  This thread didn't even deserve 10 responses, but it already has 50+ comments based on an announcement with almost no detail in regards to the partnerships with these companies.  Way too early to fret.

RMT is such a pointless venue.. As if it isn't enough to have to pay 15 bucks a month some people would spend more to get ahead?

But, sure, go ahead sell gold.. Because some games it doesnt matter HOW much gold you have, if you havent gained enough levels or skill to use a certain item or weapon then you just sit around with millions of gold coins in your pockets while running to your corpse as usual.. lol..

The only games that really benefit from RMT are games that are heavily equipment based... MOST if not all pure asian origin MMO's are like this, and besides gaining 5 levels for each armor set, the prices are usually THROUGH the friggin roof....

If this is where the future of MMO's are going then It looks like my mmorpg gaming days are coming to an end. I am not for this or any other Item selling for real money ventures. I will go back to console gaming before I play a game with this in it. I barly can tolerate it in wow the illegal bots etc. Game maker's let it be known imo its a bad idea for you to go in this direction.

Wherever there is profit to be had, the corporate world will be. Its been a truth ever since the inception of money and it makes no difference here: there's money to be done with RMT in MMOs and it was to be expected that the corporate players would jump more and more into the bandwagon.

What really pisses me off about this news is that those companies (specifically Funcom and SOE) are gonna be partnering, licensing, literally feeding the hand that has been biting them for all those years, in all those games. I really can't bring myself to condone that and especially not after a paying a premium monthly for those company for so long.

It would have been -- and has been -- different if the companies would do it ala Station Exchange. The way I see it, Station Exchange-type of model tries to beat the devil on its own turf rather than walking hand-in-hand with him.

I don't have an active subscription to either of these companies, but you can bet this will definitely be something I'll take into account before I ever buy one again.

yeah, I love how for years companies like SOE cry foul about how bad virtual sales is for games in both the gameplay and taxing their dev resources.  The first chance they get to profit though it somehow magically becomes ok just because they will be getting a slice of the pie?  Then they go so far as to say they will now get tougher on the gold farmers and allude to it somehow being more effective at catching them.

My question is what are they waiting for?  Why has been holding them back from doing this until it affects their ability to make more money.  Either they can't be more effective or they don't want to be unless we start paying more through a percentage in virtual sales revenue.  Neither do I find as acceptable. 

Beyond that, where is the benefit for the consumer in any of this?  If their games are so unfun that they endorse people paying real world money to skip playing portions of the game, then perhaps the problem isn't gold farming in the first place.  Maybe the games just need to change instead of charging for a service to avoid playing the game.

Originally posted by Paradigm

This is an open comment to Livegamer.com and any company partnered with them:

The minute your game supports real market trading (or any sort of in-game advertising) is the minute I drop your game.  I refuse to participate in any game that condones or supports real-money trading.  This is an open door for taxation and other assorted costs, and I simply don't need to play your game that much.

For those of you that want to purchase virtual materials for real money, rock on with your bad selves.  I however, will not participate in your game, and yes, I won't let the door hit me on the butt on the way out.

/signed

I didn't really need more reasons to never play "Vanguard" again but well, this time it's for sure at least

Why do people believe it will become like most of those free-game-shops?

It will just be a market like anyone else to buy and sell items/chars on. Just like Ebay but legally. It's been working for EQ

While I don't agree with the whole concept of RL cash being needed to advance in a game, I do acknowledge that the practice does and will exist, whether the companies sanction it or not.  Gold sellers are a problem in every MMO that has an economy.  Most companies have made a heavy effort in slowing down the farmers.  I've even made a personal contribution myself, by blowing up every farmer raven and macro miner I could lock down,  but in the end, it's just pissing in the wind.  Farmers are persistant (and cagey!)

The simple fact of the matter is, there's always going to be someone who doesn't have the time to invest in a game because of work or family.  Or there's always going to be somebody who's just plain too lazy to do the work, but likes the bling.  Or there's always going to be somebody who just can't get to the top fast enough.  There's always going to be somebody willing to pay hard cash for in game currency/items.  And as long as that demographic exists, there's always going to be somebody willing to provide the service.

I think it's pretty obvious the concept of RMT is not going to go away, whether you like it or not (I hate it).  So, the question changes from "how do we stop it" to "how do we deal with it".  Looks to me like instead of throwing money out the window trying to beat farmers down, they've decided to compete with them.  And since the game owners can wave a mouse and clone money/items, chances are they can offer it cheaper than the farmers.  It's not a perfect solution, but if items must be sold, then I guess I prefer they're sold by someone legitimate instead of a sweatshop full of 11 year olds.

I see this as in inevitability.  Just a natural progression in the evolution of MMOs.  Everybody wants to get to the top and the people who have money will use it if they can.  It's a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless.

I'm wondering if the idea of "purchase enabled", "purchase disabled", and "work" servers might not be a good way for them to go about it?

The complaints we have so far are that there are people for it and people against it.  That gold farmers get in the way of legitimate players, and that purchasing items and money from outside sources detracts from the true romance of playing the games.  So then, since from one perspective, not allowing players to buy and sell items is just as catering to those who do not support this style of play as allowing them to is to the other faction, players will have a CHOICE of whether they want to play in a world that supports said transactions or not.  In the meantime, the famers can battle it out on their own homefront completely removed from both factions and only be in the way of each other.

Would this not solve most of the issues we have so far?

Originally posted by vesavius

Don't p*ss in my ear and tell me it's raining.

A L4yer Cake fan i assume ;D

Wonder if we can sue RMT for ruining the MMO market for us players.  The only people that founded it were a bunch of low lifes, hope the company tanks and they lose every cent they invested.

For the challenged person above, it only works on some servers in EQ and they are by far the least populated, if that does not indicate how hated this feature is, I don't know what does.

Next there will be sport clubs "a la SOE".

You send your children to learn and play, say, tennis, and when there's an official match for each $100 that you pay your child will get one bonus point/set to start with. Does it sound great now ?? Well it's exactly the same situation : people don't want to "lose their time" deserving what they get because there's no point in practising for hours.

Say no to RMT and all their supporters !!

You know this just finalizes it for me..for many years have played SOE games on and off...been disgruntled with their customer service, been disgruntled with what they did to the original EQ, SWG...and then their swallowing Sigil and Vanguard whole.   Now to hear that they are Partnered?!?!?! with these parasites that suck online games dry and make it impossible to quest due to some gold farmer hogging the playing field..this is what SOE wants to ENCOURAGE.

They've made some bad marketting decisions in the past..this one just tops everything.

My last SOE account closed yesterday, and far as I am concerned...someone has permission to yell at me if I ever open another account with them again.

I've seen the effects on game economy that gold farmers and botters do...ala Lineage II ..Bartz server.   I refuse to play another game where I am subsidizing these low-life parasites.

Yeah I'm passionate about this...its thievery and for some odd reason its being condoned.   The game companies are caving in...and its the little people like me and you that will bear the brunt of it.

"If you can't beat 'em ..join 'em?"   Not me...

Cend

My idea would be to make the money you get soul-bound..yes it would mean you could only give items to newbies..but the money itself would be bound to you except for auction houses.   Auction houses should be policed, as well as its pretty obvious if someone is selling a cheap little item like one arrow for several thousand plat ..that that person is not legit.

These companies need to get some backbone and get rid of these people, limit them..disallow them to mingle with the normal gamers.  Take away the money trade thing..and you have no trade.  No lucrative business.   They might actually have to go and get a REAL job.

Cend

Originally posted by Paradigm

This is an open comment to Livegamer.com and any company partnered with them:

The minute your game supports real market trading (or any sort of in-game advertising) is the minute I drop your game.  I refuse to participate in any game that condones or supports real-money trading.  This is an open door for taxation and other assorted costs, and I simply don't need to play your game that much.

For those of you that want to purchase virtual materials for real money, rock on with your bad selves.  I however, will not participate in your game, and yes, I won't let the door hit me on the butt on the way out.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that SOE leapt at the chance to partner with those low-lifes.   I haven't liked how they operated in the past...this just proves beyond a doubt, that SOE games are no longer on my list to play, ever.

Cend

Originally posted by Ecranomical

I couldn't believe it when I read it, but it doesn't seem to be a 100% thing just yet. People talk about how this will undermine IGN and other companies, i really don't see it that way. IGN will probably carry out its operations but instead they'll probably sell things on this site, obviously not under IGN.

 

This is good and bad; good in that this will probably allow the companies to actually look into the economy and change things accordingly (not EVE's case, they seem to have things under good control), but now that there is a legit market, you'll probably see people/bots/farmers playing games just for the sake of making money, not that they dont, but not its a lot easier to make money.

 

I'm in different really, hell if this work out I might even sell an "uber" item or two.

And IGE is currently trying to change their name to something else and swear by all that is holy that they "now" don't condone gold farming.   Saw an article on it a few days ago.

A leopard doesn't change its spots no matter what new name it may be carrying.   And oh for those of you who don't know..IGE owns Alakhazam, thott.bot and a few other "used to be" legit sites.    So wake up and smell the coffee...these guys are taking over the MMO world and pretty soon we all will have to march to their tune..higher inflationary prices ingame, and limited access to game content that we have already paid for.

Cend

raises the question of why these big name companies are supporting this company

I have been up for more than 26hrs so here are some crazy thoughts on this-

It seems to me that upon selling virtual items for real money they are claiming that thier in-game items are real property and the selling of this property is therefore taxable.  It seems like they are introducing a part of their games that will now require government regulation to keep honest.

Aside from that, selling virtual currency for real money seems to be a form of digital counterfeiting or money laundering since they can generate this artificial currency at will and sell/trade it for real currency.

Everytime you kill and loot something you are basically pulling the lever to a slot machine and hoping for a jackpot.  Think about that - if you play any of these games you may need to claim epic items on your income tax.  Like those guys that catch a ball at baseball game but can't afford to keep it.

Umm....at the very least it is a new type of Pyramid scheme.

If you don't like this idea and want to stir up trouble then sick your Senator and Congressmen on them or at least a gaming commission.   RTM is a 1.8 billion dollar a year thing so you know they will be interested.

Edit (a few minutes after posting):  How do I become a CSR for SOE?

The last thing i would want to see is more grind for end game items just to push the sales on the RMT

Yep I agree with Wickersham, time to call my congressman.  Whoever decided to put RMT together needs their heads knocked together, I think Congress will do that, of course I will bet the treasury dept. will be quite interested too as they REALLY don't like anything that goes along with money laundering.

Originally posted by quixadhal

I know why big companies like the idea of RMT.  They don't have to put development dollars into finding ways to prevent it, and they get a cut of the profits.

I don't understand people who don't see a problem with it though.  The main reason many people play online games is to escape some part of their own reality and compete on a level playing field.  If I'm physically weak, I can't win in real-life sporting events, but I might be able to play a beefy warrior in an MMO and smack people around.  If I'm financially poor, I can't have nice things in my home, but I could outfit a virtual home with all kinds of neat stuff that I crafted or looted myself.

Adding RMT as a legitimate thing takes all that away.  Now the rich get to win here too.

I know why companies want this.  I know why rich kids want it.  Unfortunately, they're the only voices that matter.

*sigh*

 

People play online games to have fun. It is not to escape a part of their own reality and compete on a level playing field".

People want to have fun. So if they participate in RMT they are essentially removing the aspect of the game they don't like and participating in the part they do like.

The issue is if they can bypass a part of the game that other players have to work very hard to achieve but is also an integral part of the game play.

So, if someone spends money for something that is cosmetic it won't really affect other players. If someone spends money for a powerful weapon or max level character then that is a problem.

Creating servers where this is allowed seems to be the answer. This way, people who don't want to spend hours per day making money so that they can be competitive can do so. Other players can be on servers where this system isn't in place.

The only problem I see is that this won't stop 3rd party RMT. It will just create competition or will relegate to the servers that don't have this legit system.