Community Spotlight: Death Penalty

Well I always try to stay alive no matter what the penalty is.
Even when I played WoW it always pissed me off when I died. I just can't stand corpse runs and even losing 1 silver.
When I did die in WoW then it was usually not my fault, you know how random groups are.........and now that is the point why I never ever gonna play a game with really harsh penalties. There are so many factors I have no control over, lag and noobs ftl. What happens when you get disconnectes? Other people make stupid moves and I have to pay for it? Why should I have to pay for that?

I am pretty sure games in the future will be more innovative than the "GRIND 4 MONTHS TO 70" thing, so losing XP might not be a real option anyway.
Losing gear due to decay or whatever is fine with me, good for the economy but they should be easy to replace.

I for one think that each game needs a different death penalty, and it needs to be tailored to the individual game. I know many people like the idea of just having a corpse run (WoW) losing some items and exp (Lineage2) or risking everything you have when you die (Darkfall).

Certain games however just don't mix with certain types of death penalties. WoW which although sails as the flagship "easymode" game has an longwinded endgame to stave off boredom due to the fast paced levelling. Losing items in WoW is just not a viable option, and losing exp is even more unlikely as it would detract from the fast placed levelling that casual players enjoy.

What people sometimes seem to forget when talking about death penalities, are that they are universal in games. Everyone suffers the same death penalty. Which is why in a game like WoW corpse camping and ganking low levels is extremely common. People can kill someone over and over, knowing full well that if they die its just a quick corpse run for them as well. There is little fear of death, which leads to easy griefplay.

In Lineage2 the death penalty is a lot harsher, but as a consequence, if someone kills you in PvP, you die and more than likely just experiance the level loss. Your murderer is now PK-flagged and should you find and exact your revenge on him, he lose more exp and will probably drop one of his items as well.

Death penalties usually balance themsevles out in the end, with the "hardcore" one's detering ganking and greifing due to the risk of revenge being taken on you. The "soft" death penalties however promote the easy greifplay because you don't have anything to lose apart from 10 minutes of your time and a few gold for a repair bill.

I'm so pissed off at Everquest 2 for doing away with death penalties. When I first started the game on release, I remember thinking that the death penalty was the only thing they got right! When you died, you left behind a spirit shard that you had to go recollect to gain a portion of your exp back and even then you had more that you lost. I come back today and they've basically wowified the system leaving you with a 10% gear reduction that you must go mend to fix and little to almost no xp loss. No more shards, no more need to go retrieve your body or anything.

    What happened? I thought the old system was a nice mix of things and a bit of a change from EQ1? sigh, its just too easy now and dyeing is something that happens to me all to often because I simply just don't care sometimes... I know where ever I die will not matter a bit since I won't ever have to go back to that area to retrieve anything.

Damn us masochists.

A game should have quite harsh death penalities. As it stands most MMO games are very soft and allow even the most useless and talentless player to pick up where they left off and just attempt the same thing over and over. Ironcially this type of playing still moves them towards the sacred "end game point" ( I wont discuss what i tihnk of that here). The player doesnt learn, doesnt learn how to help team mates better, doesnt see a lot of content (they die to learn in instances). Of course it keeps the incompetant subscribing when they would otherwise leave.

The truth is many MMO's are so soft anyone can finish them provided there persisant. It makes the genre a mockery to games which require twtich or strategy skills to progress. I can only think of a handful of MMO's which break this mould somewhat. Actually I can onl think of Eve ONline right now.

Were being dumbed down big time with regard to this and it makes most games boring for me.

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Originally posted by tombear81

A game should have quite harsh death penalities. As it stands most MMO games are very soft and allow even the most useless and talentless player to pick up where they left off and just attempt the same thing over and over. Ironcially this type of playing still moves them towards the sacred "end game point" ( I wont discuss what i tihnk of that here). The player doesnt learn, doesnt learn how to help team mates better, doesnt see a lot of content (they die to learn in instances). Of course it keeps the incompetant subscribing when they would otherwise leave.

The truth is many MMO's are so soft anyone can finish them provided there persisant. It makes the genre a mockery to games which require twtich or strategy skills to progress. I can only think of a handful of MMO's which break this mould somewhat. Actually I can onl think of Eve ONline right now.

Were being dumbed down big time with regard to this and it makes most games boring for me.

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Dude you gonna fall off your horse, NO mmo needs any talent whatsoever. All you need is some common sense, even for EVE (to play it, not to be uber 1337).
Just because some people enjoy a different gaming style doesn't mean that they are unskilled and dumb.
Start dealing with the fact that many people don't think its fun to be punished in a video game and grind another three hours XP because they did one mistake.

Let people play the way they want, the market will decide the future of penalties.

I am pretty ambivalent about death penalties. They don't make a game more or less fun or more or less rewarding for me. As I've said in a multitude of previous rants, gamers who define harsh, time sink death penalties as "risk" really need to step away from their keyboard and take a walk in the real world. As a previous poster stated, even if I'm playing a game like WoW with relatively light death penalties, I'm still trying my best to stay alive. Corpse runs and paying for equipment repair is a more-than-adequate death penalty in my opinion.

While experience loss is something I'm not a huge supporter of, I can see its place in certain games. However, I feel level loss should NEVER occur in any game and I think I'd go so far as to say I wouldn't waste my time on a game where repeated death could ultimately equal a loss in level. It's just too much of a potential time sink and doesn't add to the gaming experience in any way, shape or form. Dying should have its consequences, but if death penalties equal retreading ground I've already covered time and time again in a game, I'll get bored and move to a more entertaining title.

Item damage and loss is probably most fair to both hardcore and casual gamers. Unfortunately, item loss in today's gear oriented games where players spend weeks and sometimes months grinding out a dungeon for certain types of uber gear is just not feasible. If games become more skill oriented and less gear dependent, sure it'd be a hassle if your armor and/or weapon is destroyed if you die X amount of times. As long as it doesn't create a time sink where you have to spend several weeks regrinding the same old crap to reacquire comparable armor.

Originally posted by tombear81

A game should have quite harsh death penalities. As it stands most MMO games are very soft and allow even the most useless and talentless player to pick up where they left off and just attempt the same thing over and over. Ironcially this type of playing still moves them towards the sacred "end game point" ( I wont discuss what i tihnk of that here). The player doesnt learn, doesnt learn how to help team mates better, doesnt see a lot of content (they die to learn in instances). Of course it keeps the incompetant subscribing when they would otherwise leave.

 

The truth is many MMO's are so soft anyone can finish them provided there persisant. It makes the genre a mockery to games which require twtich or strategy skills to progress. I can only think of a handful of MMO's which break this mould somewhat. Actually I can onl think of Eve ONline right now.

 

Were being dumbed down big time with regard to this and it makes most games boring for me.

It seems that there is a whole group of "hardcore" players who want/need to be penalized or else the gameplay experience doesn't "mean" anything.

There is also another group of people who just want to sign in, have some fun and then get back to their lives.

The idea that a person has a greater intelligence or has greater worth because they want/need/thrive off of harsh death penalites is ludicrous at best and at worse shows that there is a break with anything that really matters.

It's a game.

You are not saving livess, you are not solving world problems or making the world a better place. You are "playing". Heck, a good portion of society views playing "video games" to be the arena of  geeky misfits who have problems dealing with society. Go to a dinner party and start talking about pk'ing, fighting mobs and grinding and you will have most people looking at you like you are 13.

Now, if you want to talk about the idea of having great challenge in order to push yourself, then that at least makes more sense. A harsh death penalty does allow for a more higher stakes game. Sort of like gambling. How many of you do slots and how many of you are betting thousands in Black Jack?

Also, what is considered "harsh" is a bit subjective. for instance, I don't like huge xp death penalties but can live with them. I absolutely hate the death penalty in WoW as it is so completely tedious to have to run back to your corpse. For the few times I've played that game and died more than twice, I just logged out. I hate tedium and that type of corpse run thing is just horrible.

As far as EQII, they really did a diservice to that game. The death penalty (sans corpse run) was fine. As a matter of fact I prefer an xp debt death penalty. However, now if you kill 2 mobs you've caught up. There is almost no point.

In short, games have to "know their audience". If you have a hard core pvp game there better be a stiffer death penalty (but one that doesn't break a person's character if they die too much). If  you have a casual game for people who want to put in an hour or so here or there, you can't have a harsh death penalty or else there will be no sense of actually enjoying the game.

Contrary to what many of this board feel, most people don't want or need to play games (because they are games) that slap them in the face if they do one wrong thing. They just want to have a good time without pledging their lives.

Originally posted by tigris67

I'm so pissed off at Everquest 2 for doing away with death penalties. When I first started the game on release, I remember thinking that the death penalty was the only thing they got right! When you died, you left behind a spirit shard that you had to go recollect to gain a portion of your exp back and even then you had more that you lost. I come back today and they've basically wowified the system leaving you with a 10% gear reduction that you must go mend to fix and little to almost no xp loss. No more shards, no more need to go retrieve your body or anything.

    What happened? I thought the old system was a nice mix of things and a bit of a change from EQ1? sigh, its just too easy now and dyeing is something that happens to me all to often because I simply just don't care sometimes... I know where ever I die will not matter a bit since I won't ever have to go back to that area to retrieve anything.

 

Damn us masochists.

If I remember the original EQ2 correctly, if you were in a group and anyone died, the whole group suffered. Too many times, I had idiots who would do silly things like fall to death or rush in an area without help or prep and the whole group suffered. This turned me off to EQ2. I can accept responsibility for my actions, but others actions I should not have to.

The problem is there is no 100% way to satisfy every customer ,the trick is to find the middle road so that as many player as possibly will think its ok.

Originally posted by mindmeld

The problem is there is no 100% way to satisfy every customer ,the trick is to find the middle road so that as many player as possibly will think its ok.

 

 

If it is marketed as a Hardcore game then people should not complain about dropping items, xp debt, etc.

If  it is a casual player's game then players need to accept the fact that the death penalty is not going to be severe. If you install a severe death penalty for a game that is played maybe an hour or so per day or every other day then players are going to leave as they won't be able to really enjoy the game having to be constantly dealing with death penalties.

One thing about death penalites, that I find kind of suprising, is that companies do not make it more realistic on RP servers. On an RP server, you want to BECOME that character, and talk like that character, and make yourself so immersed in that world that everything has meaning. Death should be quite more painful, as in not exactly perma-death, but close enough to the point that when you are with a group and someone gets killed, there is actual mourning for the guy.

I have always been a fan of perma-death options, ever since hardcore mode in d2. Twas a long time ago, I know, but was a great feeling to be a lvl 90 and knowing that you hadnt died once. To me they could do that today, while still pleasing the crowd, with just a few adjustments.

For example, a set amount fo lives per 24 hours. Let's say, you have 3-5 lives. That is enough to be able to go to far away places and explore dangerous caverns, without really being hindered. But of course, I think that if you DO die, you should still lose some of the value in your gear, like either it being worn down from 100/100 durability, to 80/100 durability, and making it so it cannot be fixed too 100, and the cap is now 80 for that piece you are wearing.

For one, that would make people play in a smarter way, it would please the people who die from lag, since you DO have a number of lives, and it would tremendously help the crafting economy, as the armor and weapons you have, can and will break, making it that you have to go buy another. This would also slow down greatly the process of people who are heavy levelers, as if they died 3 times in a day, they know that 1 or 2 more and they lose everything, so perhaps they give it a rest, and go crafting, or just explore ad commune.

To me this is the PERFECT system, and any game that would come close to this would be my new favorite home, and I hope some of you agree with me. Alright thanks for reading!

There is no game with a greater death penalty then EvE online.  If you where to sell the ingame currency needed to build the biggest ship in the game, a Titan, it would be worth about 10,000 US dollars.  These can not be built by a single person, they are built by groups of thousands of players.. but only one gets to fly it.  So far, 3 Titans have been lost in the game...  And this is why those who play EvE love it.

You draw more flies with honey than salt.

Rather than a death penalty there should be a bonus for not dying. Nothing huge. A perk that's nice enough to encourage living.

A person makes a mistake or something happens outside their control, why should they be slapped down for it? People need to get out of this mindset that its a good idea to hurt someone when they do something. Challenges are good, something earned is better than getting it easy, but a death penalty is just a time sink that hurts a game in the long run.

Originally posted by mindmeld

The problem is there is no 100% way to satisfy every customer ,the trick is to find the middle road so that as many player as possibly will think its ok.

 

 

Make the base some minor xp loss and gear damage, then add steps either way with corresponding rewards.  For example, 2 to the left - No dp - 50% xp gained + loot down one table; 1 to the left [easier side] - gear damage, no xp loss - 75% xp gained; 1 to the right [harder] - more gear damage - 110% xp gained; 2 to the right - loss of some gear BUT have corpse run - 125%xp; 3 to the right - loss of all gear/carried BUT have corpse run- 140%xp; 4 to the right - loss of all gear NO corpse run  + loot UP one table - 150%.

Ammend:  For PvP, slider could include being looted - 10% items + all cash carried at 3 right, and full looting at 4 right.

My first MMO was UO and started back when Trammel wasn't even around. That game worked well for the death penalty that was instated. Now with the insurance system that is in place it removes the "fun". For most of the game and many of the expansions you could use GM crafted gear from other players or yourself. That too me was one of the reasons full looting was enabled in the game. Although there were some weapons you wouldn't use such as your Silver/Vanquishing katana / halberd. Miss the days of those types of weapons in that game.

Now for the death penalties that are in games now. For the most part that's what works best for that type of game. The slider idea wouldn't be interesting to try and work with. Good general idea and might work who knows.

Make your own death penalty if you like it so much.

When you die delete all the gear you have on, heck do the same to your inventory!

You guys are sadists. Death penalties are there for nothing more than to drag the game out keep you paying. Just like huge exp requirements and other grinds.

Enjoy that if you can, I find having fun keeps me playing.

Death penalties are retarded.

Live bonusses are the way to go.

People shouldn't be punished for something that's part of the game like dying.

Instead people should be rewarded for staying alive.

Double XP and gold on quests if you don't die while doing them.

Extra points in PvP for each subsequent kill without death. 1 point for the first 5 people, 2 points for the five after that etc.

Higher drop changes if you kill a boss without any deaths.

Don't punish players for something that's part of the game. Reward those that can avoid it.

Players need to care about not dying, but not cry when they died.

Debt-system as in CoV work for the overwhelming majority of players; most players tried hard to avoid death, but if they died, they are not depressed.

However, a minority of players, including me, will actually laugh and not care at all about this death system.  So you need a side system that doesn't affect most players, but that has the potential to affect me.  Lives per month designed in a way that merely between 1% and 5% of the players may actually run out of lives eventually (and merely for a few days for most, a week or two in extreme cases)...that could work for me.  Give it a buffer, like you only start losing lives after X times or whatever...

PS: A slight punishment for dying is not only acceptable, but it is desirable.  Don't lose xp, put a debt, as in CoV...or for someone like me, removing me 1 life and the potential to be unable to play my character for a few days, now that would worry me enought so I would try to avoid death.  Dying in itself is 90% of the penalty, but there need to be a little something more, DEBT (light) is working for most players, for those which laugh at debt, you don't put more debt, you find something else...like lives per month...the idea is not to cripple a player, it is to play with a player.  Now, telling me that I can't play my main for more then 187 hours this month since I died too much...peoples will tell me to relax and enjoy life while my lives are refreshing...not many will cry for me, of that I am sure!  

I have no inherent opposition to death penalties, but I do have some specific thoughts:

-- Death caused by a groupmate/third party player is annoying, but I can live with it.  Death caused by game issues (lag, stutter, etc.) just plain sucks and can stop me from playing.  This is why I don't play Vanguard much (it happened again last night -- I was revisiting after two weeks away). 

-- When the game becomes "one step forward, one step back" I back off and try to figure out what I am doing wrong.  If it becomes "one step forward, two steps back" I leave.  That is why I left Eve.  I am just too slow to play it, and nothing is like playing for a week of missions building up isk just to lose it all on a bad encounter.  I was tired of being my corp's pet charity case. 

Any game that implements any sort of a harsh death penalty is slitting it's throat.   Basically the kiss of death for a MMO.  True some very small niche games will survive if they do everything else right as the hardcore will play it, but they are a very small pool of players and it is quite risky to try to cater to this segment.

I constantly see the hardcore complaining that death penalties are not harsh enough, but did you ever think that if they did you would not have anyone to play with?

Everyone forgets that these are games, people play games to have fun.   A harsh death penalty is never fun.

This is one of the reasons Vanguard flopped, too harsh a death penalty.  Just stupid design in this day and age.  I won't be surprised when SOE makes it less harsh, I can guarentee it will be changed before the end of the year.

If you notice, not one of the new games coming out has a harsh death penalty.  Case closed.

I don't feel I need any incentive to not die, call it a pride thing but I hate dieing whether there be a penalty or not, I enjoy the feeling that my character is so good he hasn't died yet, that somehow he is unbeatable, like John McClain. 

But if there is a death penalty, I think it should be a little time sink.  I think that losing gear or XP is too much of a time/money sink, rebuying gear, going to town/your house, killing X ammount of mobs.  Instead I would suggest something more along the lines of  "You are now unconcieus, you will wake up in 10 minutes," where you lose smaller ammounts of time that effect your gameplay immediatly and then let you continue on as normal, rather than losing gear or XP, which does not end your play immediatly but will make you go  back to makeup all the stuff/XP you lost which would most likely take longer than 10 or so minutes ( more like an hour or more). 

And while I am at it, I have to say I think it is unfair to just have a penalty punishing you for dieing but not reward you for living, maybe little buffs to defence or health regen could be used to make you character more grizzled after winning so many fights without dieing, just like John McClain (in keeping of the other Die Hard reference I made earlier), but of course all of which would go away when you do die.

Death penalties are what the game allows them to be. A game like shadowbane where there is full inventory loot works well because you didn't need to carry anything worth much in your inventory. If you tried that in a game like WoW, heads would roll because you need to carry around a ton of random garbage in your bags. I prefer a harsher death penalty(full loot 4tw) but it has to fit the game.

Originally posted by Taera

 

 

Hey, I got an idea! They should let us pick our own death penalties!

 

;)

I actually think that could work really well.

A drop down menu where you can choose your death penalty. Based on this you get certain bonusses.

Harsh - 25% more XP and gold gained from kills/quests and small change to get rare items. PvE deaths cause 10% XP loss, PvP deaths against moderate DP players drop 10% of your gold, PvP deaths against harsh DP players drops 10% of your gold and a random equipped item.

Moderate - 10% more XP and gold gained from kills/quests and a very small change to get rare items. PvE deaths cause 5% XP loss. PvP deaths against moderate and harsh DP players drops 10% of your gold.

None - 0% more XP and gold gained from kills/quests and no change to get rare items. Deaths cause nothing.

In order to gain rare items, more gold and XP you have to risk something. But if you don't feel like it you can switch it off.

You should only be able to change your DP in town or something like that. To avoid people switching it on when they see a person low on health and then switching it back off.

Although I still personally think the whole concept of a death penalty is bad. Bonusses for living longer should be given instead. If you have to do Death Penalties then do them like this. I could see something like this working very well.

Originally posted by Taera

 

Originally posted by mindmeld

The problem is there is no 100% way to satisfy every customer ,the trick is to find the middle road so that as many player as possibly will think its ok.

 

 

 

Hey, I got an idea! They should let us pick our own death penalties!

hehe you never know it could happen in one way or another :D

Why give a bonus for a harsher penalty? If someone wants to play hardcore, that's great and maybe they should be allowed to pick it, but there is no reason to reward them for it. They want a harsher DP for the challenge right? Otherwise people will just find a way around the system to cheat, not to mention more CS tickets as people cry "but I didn't realize it was set high, etc."

Nothing is stopping a person from having a harsh DP in any mmorg. If your character dies, delete him and start over. Worry about yourself and not about how easy or hard others had it.

Originally posted by Settingsun

Why give a bonus for a harsher penalty? If someone wants to play hardcore, that's great and maybe they should be allowed to pick it, but there is no reason to reward them for it. They want a harsher DP for the challenge right? Otherwise people will just find a way around the system to cheat, not to mention more CS tickets as people cry "but I didn't realize it was set high, etc."

Nothing is stopping a person from having a harsh DP in any mmorg. If your character dies, delete him and start over. Worry about yourself and not about how easy or hard others had it.

Well, the whole risk versus reward concept is the answer to that one.  Hardcore players don't mind the EQ1 level loss penalties if they know there is a greater chance for that ultra rare item they have been yearning for is available to them.  They are hardcore because they are driven more than others for that reward. They play longer and know the game intimately more than your average gamer. So, the hardcore gamer would choose the death penalty setting up not because it is a more challenging game experience, ( remember we are not talking about a difficulty setting of the game, just the death penalty) but because the reward tables area  fraction better than one who does not..

HEhe, what if death penalties were paid via your credit card??

Imagine. The game you buy is free, no subscription fee, but after an introductory period, anytime you die you have a pay to keeping playing?

Heck, we do it already in Arcades...

I've always wondered what would happen if developers did the ultimate harsh of harsh death penalties. You die, you're dead... start over! That would certaintly create an interesting dynamic especiallly for games try to simulate a realistic world.

More on topic, I agree with one of the posters above that penalties really need to be tailored fit to the games. I can really see how much of a balancing act it can be for the developers. Games are about winning and losing, what you lose is as much to the identity of game as what you have to gain with success. A loss needs to be a step backwards for players. I think alot of games ignore this fact in not making losing significant.  I find something appealing in the prospect of a game where ranking and level have less to do with how long you've played and more to do with how well you've played the game. 

One creative solution to death penalty I don't think any mmorpg has taken is to make a mini-game that you have to work through when you die.  Anyone up for having to escape from hell everytime you die? The more times you die the harder it gets to escape.

Originally posted by Taera

 

 

I was actually tossing around a similar idea :) the problem is, its often too easy in MMOs to find easy areas - wouldn't this reward players - especially gold farmers - to find an easy hunting ground and hoot their way up the ladder?

It would also make for excellent farmer killing.

Let's say that farmer is playing with harsh DP. If you kill him, even with moderate DP, he'll drop 10% of all his gold.

While easy hunting grounds will attract players looking for an easy jump up the ladder they will also attract the PvP crowd. Simply because the PvPers themselves are constantly losing all their gold by doing what they love most, PvP with harsh DP. So they need to get some gold back. To the left is the volcano of slow and painfull death combined with great loss of items and XP filled with the most bloodthirstly PvPers eager to eat your bones. To the right is the phat mushroom loot paradise filled with PvE farmers with soo much gold that they leave penny trails behind. If you were a PvPer and you needed money badly. Would you go to the volcano and be slaughtered because you lost some gear and money. Or would you go to the mushroom fields where you can slaugher PvEers and get their money after wich you can go back to the volcano and not be insta-slaughered.

Even in WoW, heralded as a carebear game, whenever I got ganked and killed it was at a popular farming area. While killing furbolgs, while killing satyrs etc.

By going to easy hunting grounds, you basically become an easy target yourself. You're probarly loaded with gold and you're fighting another monster. Wich PvPer wouldn't attack you?

Even though I still play UO and don't insure my items, meaning if i die i have to run to my corpse to retrieve them, I don't need a Death Penalty to do all I can to stay alive. For some of us its natural since we have sorrow losing, even if we don't show it or make any silly remarks when it hapens anymore, after we are adults and suposed to behave properly.  

I like the WOW death penalty. I don't like EQ2 one and I prefer to play solo and stay alive, then to group with a newbie that will rush on the enemie and get me killed. If a game makes me lose items or experience I wont group unless I know the team already and they play well. In that case death is aceptable, otherwise not. That leaves out games like FFXI where we can even drop level. 

I know I'm not the only one doing this, making party only with experienced players and dumping teams that die by newbiness on instances or whatever, even if the penalty is small. We just don't like it. I would use some excuse and leave. We know what to do inside, we plan ahead and teach the newbies we take, if they break the rules the all team already gets the penalty of not making things to the end, I think that is quite enough.

I have colegues that only started playing MMORPG after they saw me on WOW, most ppl from my job are now playing it, none would accept a death penalty in experience or corpse runs since they are not from the early days of this genre. They are players for years, just not on this genre. They are the reason why the most rated by press games, and those with more subscribers, have removed such feature. Also, the new gamers simply can't be bothered to make corpse runs and on the single player games they want to save whenever they want, no waiting, no pacience, just action while they play during the little free time they have. Worst even if they pay a fee for it. 

Therefore I doubt developers will use a real death penalty in the furure, not when they want to reach a broad variety of players.

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Originally posted by Settingsun
You draw more flies with honey than salt.
Rather than a death penalty there should be a bonus for not dying. Nothing huge. A perk that's nice enough to encourage living.
A person makes a mistake or something happens outside their control, why should they be slapped down for it? People need to get out of this mindset that its a good idea to hurt someone when they do something. Challenges are good, something earned is better than getting it easy, but a death penalty is just a time sink that hurts a game in the long run.

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Agree 100%

Death penalties would make people play in a safer and ... stagnant way. If you wanna be creative ,you need do experiments and tests and this is very fun sometimes, but you die often until found something new. Survivors must be rewarded, but please don't stop creativity.

Too frustrating for players and imagine the ire your game would earn if the death was due to lag..

Hmmmm.

Despite counter-arguements, I still stand on my above position because to many MMO subscription games are so soft as to be towards gross stupidiy. Its just to keep subs flowing and the little kids from getting too stressed. Generally I think MMO's are on a slippery slope to be majorly dumbed down and look down upon by other genre players ( if not already so).

I will say that part of the problem is that very linear nature of progression in many MMO's. Start level 1 and get to level X. Theres often very  little do in the between time but kill and grind. We have to feel like were achieving and moving somewhere so dev's make games so stupidly easy and forgiving. There often very little other routes to take or are seen as less serious. If we did have other things to do in an MMO the when something gets tough we can swap activities . Its the linear nature of these games where everyone is sent on a same progression and everyone has to get to top level so the game is watered down. By other activities I mean more than the usual crafting too. ( A missed feature in LOTRO is the emote system.. would have been great for each class to have some kind of side activtiies to gain new emotes). In the end some of the problem stems from the fact many MMO are very shallow and formulaic and have no real background context and do not run a sandbox type world alongside the traditional linear level system. I'd also argue sacrily, many players (not all), even older ones have reached such a rut in expectations of a genre they may not be able to cope with such a game very easily or just go for top level again.

As for MMO's and skill. I beleive there was once supposed to be time slot based strategy. But many games now resort button mashing and DPS, DPS. I think the future of MMO is to move in to strategy / "real time" FPS elements. But this is probably contravesial. Though I am begining to beleive a massively multiplayer world should also have multiple ways to play. Perhaps this maybe a new feature of future MMO's

oh and I like the idea of positive rewards but again if theres no risk then persistance , persistance and voila.

Originally posted by mindmeld

The problem is there is no 100% way to satisfy every customer ,the trick is to find the middle road so that as many player as possibly will think its ok.

 

 

Yes, very much so.

If the MMO wants to turn a profit, they are going to seek a solution that appeals to the market they're seeking to attract.

The catch is, the hardcore masochist MMO player is in a distinct minority in the larger market.  So "death penalties" will be reduced to appeal to a larger slice of the market pie.  To the point where in WoW there is next to no penalty for dying.  Just having to run back to your corpse and accept some decay that money will fix.

Look how SWG treated Jedi deaths initially.  You die three times on a toon, and it's gone.  Forever.  All the advancement, all the accumulated stuff.  Gone.

That didn't last long as a concept.

There really has to be a creative solution to death penalties. I remember playing SWG and getting killed in some out of my control situations and being annoyed at having to sit around waiting to recover the temporary stat drop caused. Often though it seemed in game mostly to give doctors something to do. SWG didn't really havve too good a solution

I also remember dying in City of Villains, ending up in jail and having to fight my way out. There wasn't any penalty really aside from that. I thought that was one of the best ways to deal with dying I've seen in an MMO.  It was in character with the game, it was a penalty, but was also an ingame experiance.

Well, an online game without a death penalty that is based around killing MOBs to progress is just not a game without it full stop. No challenge/ no game/ no fun.

Not a lot more to say one poster suggested a bonus for not dying and I like this a lot but the penalty for dying should also exist.

Excellent article death penalties can be excellent when implemented correctly. I think there should be a gain/reward for conquering an encounter and a penalty for loss.

In regards to PVP, I make a huge impact if I can loot my victims. this will set them back which means a huge victory for my guild. for instance if I destroy someone's ship they not only lose cargo they also lose their ship which means one less danger to my guild.

Let's say I own a bank or town. If someone tries to invade they might blow up my canons (defenses) I spent real money to build. They should lose their ship if they fail and I should gain the wrechkage of their ship to pay for my canons.

Death Penalties is a lot more applicable to a dynamic MMO like Starport. They handle PVE the same way

Brilliant game design blows away EQ2 / City of heroes and all the EQ clones. I never could understand XP debt it was a big drain. The reward for conquering an enounter better be huge to compensate for the risks

In regards to full looting I think players would accept it a lot more if it also applied to PVE! For instance any mob I kill I get their full loot. So if I see a guard with fancy armor if I kill him I get all his armor. Like Elder Scrolls Oblivion does

Unfortunately MMORPGs are too big a grind atm to support this. they make all things a timesink. I'm thinking Darkfall or Pirates of burning sea are much more likely to support this.

Some games I understand where death penalties work, but some games they just do not make sense.  So many games have such a level difference that a player that is several levels above can kill a lower level no matter what they do.   That is not based on skill just the fact that they can come gank a lowbie.  Maybe if there was more skill based and not cause I am a level 70 i pwn you based games I would feel differently. 

I like harsh death penalties. It creates respect for the environment that no other system quite accomplishes. Anyone remember losing half a level of experience in classic EQ1 when the game was first released, before they lessoned it? We're talking about 6 hours of grinding down the tubes plus a corpse run on top of that. That's the way I like it.

When it comes to Death Effects, there is 2 sides to the meaning.

From a PvE standpoint like Samuraisword had mentioned- just going through the dungeon crawl dying and getting your corpse back safely and then recover the xp lost. But from this system of leaving a corpse behind, many players were left to be corpse camped, a major flaw and inevitable spam of reports to GMs.

Having to recover your corpse leaves a character completely weak. As in EQ1 and probably most other games, the gear makes up the character so much. If you dont understand this, it's ok. Having 2k HP at max level and putting your gear back on where your hp becomes 10k. Understanding that spells at that level are for ppl based on 10k hp and people who (who now have no resists or hp) are victims are running helplessly to their corpses to die again.

I would only agree to playing a corpse game again if character development also added innate stats throughout the game along with gear (just lesson gear stats to compliment the actual player).

One Instance i can remember from PvP on Sullon Zek. An Evil Team Raid occured at Trakanon and failed. And Nuetrals were on the way to Trak and found out they had failed-So they logged on their Evil Alts and told the Evil Raid team to consent them, and such the Evil Raid did consent. The Nuetrals in disguise dragged their corpses even farther into the dungeon and many lost their corpses for good.

There is a point to corpse recovery but never should it involve harassment for hours, nor the possibility of completely losing your characters equipment. Which is one reason why EQ1 has gone "corpseless death" in PvP thus far. And for Corpse Retrieval in PvE deaths, most games now have a NPC Summoner (some games grant players summoning abilities) to summon corpse(s) to a players position, and removing the difficult task of going back into the fire.

NPC Summoning, in my opinion removes the intensity of adventuring. "No problem, i can just summon my body". There comes a point in the game where you should sit straighter and say "I need to focus or im going to fail"

Aka_Mythos mentioned "If you die-you die," EQ1 did a small server as promotion for one of their expansions called Gates of Discord. The server was a hardcore pvp server where if a player died they literally lost all their gear and reset to lvl 1. From hearsay on the pvp battleground it was more or less a success. The pet classes dominated the game and people did actually level to the cap. But for most casual players, completely ruining their character after one failure is a mindjob and most would just toss that game away. Coming from Everquest myself, I am proud that over time I have worked hard to better my character. I consider myself a hardcore raider (not even casual) and though I have messed up a few times, I can still have something to hold onto instead of nothing at all.

But I do agree with you Mythos, the Death Effects must be respect the game itself. Personally the old "Hell Levels" of EQ1 were decent reminder of when not to die. But nowadays in EQ1, if I die, I have a 15 minute DE and I have to sit in graveyard and think about why I messed up, which usually isn't my favorite 15 minutes. Respectively maybe for group events, if you die, your character is "captured" by the enemy, you can/should return to the area and bargain for his/her release or fight for his escape. And of course in instanced fighting, the zone after its been completed or failed, the zone throws the corpses outside-that's fine in my opinion.

In my experience of playing WoW, i found that dying was actually more fun because I could scout an area and not get hurt in the process.  Im not a real big fan of Item Purity. To me it's tells me that is the dev's way of making me earn money either to maintain my armor or buy new stuff which doesnt sound so complex but I just dont like having to pay again and again after I die, and its only when you get higher level that you can die more without having to pay more. *Shakes head*

I like the idea Gobla had posted about the Tiers of xp/gold/loot. But someone had tried to counterpoint this idea about gold farmers. If you look at this idea, the top tier (hardcore) is pretty much the "normal" gameplay, so really it doesnt affect them unless they go any lower. And for Gold Farming, well heres a thought. Create a game where Gold has less of an impact on the game.

I am all for XP items (items you xp/levels and enchance) rather than personal levels. It lessons the timesync of farming gold/items and allows the player to focus on what he/she has and progress at her own pace and still maintain gear that is competative to others.