Scott Jennings: Crafting Gameplay

A LOT of people ENJOY crafting.

I still remember the pride I felt when I was grouped with a warrior who was wearing a piece of armour which I had crafted in WoW. It's a rare experience in WoW, for sure, as the great majority of gear is just skill point grind fodder.

I'm still waiting for a game which gets crafting right, but even WoW has SOME entertainment value from some of the crafting professions.

I can't stand crafting and rarely if ever do it.

However I could imagine a system where I think it would be fun. I had made a similar post elsewhere:

I'll tell you that I hate crafting. Despise it. Loath it. If it was removed from every game that I play from now until death I would rejoice. Probably pay more money per month on my own just to thank the game maker.

That's how much I hate it. And I'm being nice. I rarely if NEVER craft in games.

However, I noticed something a few years ago while messing with a neverwinter nights trainer for characters.

Among many of the things it had was the ability to change all sorts of things on the weapons and armor.

You could change 3 parts of the looks of a sword (pommel, Hilt and Blade Shape ... maybe even different parts of the blade) or change several parts on the armor along with simple dying of the item. This was using the in game art that the toolset had.

I would redesign the weapons and armor for hours. I suddenly realized I don't hate crafting in the sense of "making something new". I hate gathering bits upon bits that make more bits so that I can reproduce some in game item that will be replaced by some boss drop.

 so....

 My utopian crafting system has more to do with a crafting mini-game, maybe something along the same lines of the game "Enigmo" as far as manipulating crafting elements, and a way to create "designs" so that there is control over the look of the item. Or in the case of a potion "what" that potion actually does.

I agree with the DAoC crafting presenting a barrier to crafting making master crafters a bit rare. Which is a great thing, a rare crafter means hes in high demand and can turn profit and in some cases even become famous on a server for his wares. However I disagree with the way DAoC did this. A green bar going across your screen is mind numbingly boring and pointless.  I wholeheartedly agree mastering a craft should be a time sink, but just because its a time sink doesn't mean it has to be boring.  I think the key to good crafting will be making a system that only allows dedicated crafters to achieve the highest level, but also makes it a fun experience for them too.

Moving on, crafted goods also have to be in demand, you find this to be more the case in pvp oriented games though. As in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from  a crafter, whats the point?? Mortal Online has a rather great crafting system to be honest. The way it works is crafters get to pick which materials and how much to use to make a given item. What this means is each item is different and there are litteraly millions of possibilities. As far as I know, players cant see the exact make up of a crafted item and therefor certain crafters will eventually be known for their superior knowledge of materials and constantly have people going back to them, or in the competitive aspect of the game, attempting to steal their recipe. I'm not sure if this has been done before, but if you know other games like this, please let me know. 

Also, second life does feature great crafting, in the aspect that you can truly express yourself and make something unique and original. With that in mind, APB also promises to give designers this same feel, allowing them to use the same tools used by developers to make art and clothing, which can then be sold on auction. They also promise to have a leader board showcasing the top designers (I'm not sure how this will work but I assume it will be based on sales and not judged by artistic appeal). However, being purely cosmetic, I wonder what the demand will be for such things.

I think crafting is typically a secondary thought when it comes to MMO's, however I feel it should be one of the primary concerns. To do crafting right, you need to meddle in a lot of other fields. You cant have superior loot that is easily obtained overshadowing your craftable goods. You also need to have diversity in crafts, and when this includes consumables that influence pvp outcomes and pve difficulty, you need to be very careful to ensure balance. Anyway you look at it, if you want a true craft experience, it needs to be one of the primary concerns of the developers as it will have major impact on the entire game.

Crafting hell non combat skills in general have be so very bad for so long.  I remember the pride I felt when I finally gmed my first crafting skill in UO way back when and there was actually a market for my wares *gasp*.  But sadly now everything revolves around killing.  Even crafting is little more then an expansion the combat system rather then a true independant system itself.  Everyone has to have their leet rare drop that they had to run the same instance a million times for.

I should admit that I have been a crafter in nearly every game I have played...for a variety of reasons.

That said, the article has a few things wrong with it....

Everquest had neglected crafting for a long time, but it did briefly have a massive resurgence around Luclin where it was very profitable, desired and useful. Not because you could make the "best" gear but because you could make stuff that was much more accessable than drops and was "good enough" for twinks.

DAoC's crafting system was essential to the RvR aspect of that game and up until the infamous ToA, crafted items were the top tier of gear....but the crafting system itself was mind-numbingly tedious and painful. SWG (pre-nge) had the best crafting system of any MMO to date...but it also had lots of bugs, loopholes and ultimately exploits. The early item dupes, credit dupes and other exploits did a lot to damage the economy of SWG.

Anarchy Onliine effectively had no crafting systems worth messing with and WoW's crafting was a relatively pointless joke compared to what you could easily get from drops. it's worth noting in here that EVE has a very simple crafting system, but has the most involved and intricate economy of any MMO.

In the newer games, EQ2 took an interesting approach and made crafting more interactive and involved than most games...but they failed to make the products important enough/good enough or unique enough. WAR took the WoW approach even further and basically ignored crafting.

I also think his categories of crafters missed at least one: craftsman - people who make stuff because they want to make things for people and be known. SWG was a great example of this, there were people who specialized in making "the best" pistols or whatever and derived great pride from being known as "the guy" to buy from.

Originally posted by SlineerAs in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from  a crafter, whats the point??
 

In that other player made thread called "what is your utopian crafting system" one of the posters mentions that boss drops should things that master crafters could use.

I really think that is the way to go. So you kill a boss and get some sort of old legendary sword. The sword is not usable but a master crafter coud salvage its metal, gems, what have you and make something else.

If it was a sci-fi game you could get a piece of advanced alien technology that the crafter could turn into something.

Otherwise, boss drops tend to marginalize crafters. Of course, if crafters were allowed to make items that were "almost" as powerful then that couuld work as well.

But when crafted gear is superseded, and by a large margin, by drops then why would anyone want something crafted?

You just sat there and it was fun?

Where is   http://www.mmorpg.com/LINK  supposed to point to?

Or is this just an elaborate pre-April Fool's joke against us crafters?

Ave, Scott Jennings, Ave!

Originally posted by Postal13

Where is   http://www.mmorpg.com/LINK  supposed to point to?

 

Or is this just an elaborate pre-April Fool's joke against us crafters?

I think Sovrath managed to finally get Crafting expunged from MMORPG's. 

SWG crafting in the first couple months of the games original release was a blast.

Armorsmith and tailor.  You needed material gathered from toons hunting, minerals mined, drop items, and items created by other crafters in order to advance your craft.

I was a bit of everything I guess.  I did the barter system at first.  You want x armor, ok bring me y units of this leather.  I asked for 3-5 times the amount of material required.  that way I could make more and sell it, while still leveling my craft.

Once I was able to craft the top-end armor (well top end at the time) I would barter for factories, and harvest equipment from architects.  They would get crates of top-end armor in exchange.  They help me, I help them, it worked.

Then we found out how to customize the armor by using certain resources.  Then the really good stuff was made.  My weaponsmith friend had pistols that were doing more damage then heavy artilery weapons. (Ah, the good ol pre-nerf combat days).

The ultimate compliment for a crafter was breaking the crafting system.  I think it was 3 weeks into the games release.  Crafted items were failing to be made, because the game ran out of unique ID-codes for the crafted items.  Same thing happend a few weeks later with factories.

Also, a good craft system can overload a server.  Selling x armor at 9pm, be there.  Just about everyone on the server was there and we crashed the game server.  That was a fun chat with a CSR, oopps.  Then when the money was tallied, I had more credits then the system could handle. Ah, capitalism at its finest.

Then came WOW.  No crafting was really needed for stuff.  Raids, boss drops, faction items, were better then everything you could craft.  Yeah, there were cosmetic tweeks you could get, but for the non-hardcore-I-am-going-to-be-a-min-max-player you did not need any of these things.

I enjoy games with crafting, but only if they are done well, and the items crafted are needed by 99% of the combat players.  I still with WOW had raid drops that required a crafter to assemble, or turn on, or something.  Give us something useful to do.

I can't follow the LINK to read the rest of the article, but in case this wasn't mentioned in it:

I would say that Dofus has an excellent crafting system in place.  I haven't played the game in a couple years, so they may have made tweaks to it, but I loved the way you could look up and hire a crafter to make something for you in that game.  There was an interactive screen where you could insert your ingredients and they could then craft the item and it would return the created item to your inventory.  There was no risk of loss of items or materials by an untrustworthy crafter.  The professions were varied and interesting, and the shop system they set up worked well with it. 

I would love to see more games adopt a similar system for crafting.

Lil

Your link is broken OP.

As far as the article goes.  I agree wholeheartedly on your reason for having a robust crafting mini-game within the main game itself.

However, I have one comment on your tongue-n-cheek one liners about watching the bar go from Left to Right.

How is in crafting watching the bar go from Left to Right any worse than in combat watching the bar go from Right to Left?

You make crafting sound so minimal when combat can be summed up in the same fashion.  A good crafting game does require as much effort as a good combat game.  Case in point, both of your examples for good crafting games and the good combat games.  They each do 1 good but, the other seems to suffer for it!!!

Which is why I posted in another thread, if you had the 150 million that EA and Bioware are spending on KOTOR, you could use that same budget to come up with a game that splits the developement into the 2 camps ( combat and crafting ) then combine the best aspects of a WoW type of combat with the SWG type of crafting.  Each doing 1 of the 2 aspects relatively well.

Let me also say that I for one would fall into the Hobbyist portion of the crafting game.  Fun to toy with but, not necesarily my main focus in most games.

Originally posted by magicaldork

SWG crafting in the first couple months of the games original release was a blast.

Armorsmith and tailor.  You needed material gathered from toons hunting, minerals mined, drop items, and items created by other crafters in order to advance your craft.

I was a bit of everything I guess.  I did the barter system at first.  You want x armor, ok bring me y units of this leather.  I asked for 3-5 times the amount of material required.  that way I could make more and sell it, while still leveling my craft.

Once I was able to craft the top-end armor (well top end at the time) I would barter for factories, and harvest equipment from architects.  They would get crates of top-end armor in exchange.  They help me, I help them, it worked.

Then we found out how to customize the armor by using certain resources.  Then the really good stuff was made.  My weaponsmith friend had pistols that were doing more damage then heavy artilery weapons. (Ah, the good ol pre-nerf combat days).

The ultimate compliment for a crafter was breaking the crafting system.  I think it was 3 weeks into the games release.  Crafted items were failing to be made, because the game ran out of unique ID-codes for the crafted items.  Same thing happend a few weeks later with factories.

Also, a good craft system can overload a server.  Selling x armor at 9pm, be there.  Just about everyone on the server was there and we crashed the game server.  That was a fun chat with a CSR, oopps.  Then when the money was tallied, I had more credits then the system could handle. Ah, capitalism at its finest.

 

Then came WOW.  No crafting was really needed for stuff.  Raids, boss drops, faction items, were better then everything you could craft.  Yeah, there were cosmetic tweeks you could get, but for the non-hardcore-I-am-going-to-be-a-min-max-player you did not need any of these things.

I enjoy games with crafting, but only if they are done well, and the items crafted are needed by 99% of the combat players.  I still with WOW had raid drops that required a crafter to assemble, or turn on, or something.  Give us something useful to do.

 I still play SWG, primarily for the crafting.  Between the continually hunting for the various resource types, and their stats changing every week or so, makes it one of the most frustrating, and fun, parts of the game for a lot of people, including myself.

If Galaxies had a crafting system like WOW, I would have never gotten addicted to the game 6 1/2 years ago.

Need more games with crafting systems modeled after UO and early SWG. Good writeup.

I am very curious why, with all this talk about crafting in MMORPG's, that Horizons ( now called Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted )  was not mentioned.

Yes it's an old game that has a checkered past, but it also has one of the best crafting systems in any mmorpg.

As was mentioned, the hobbyists love to craft, and in a PVE game like Istaria, crafting is of great importance, as this is how all players get their gear. There are no NPC's to purchase high level gear, nor would that be desired, as each player wants to but armor and weapons that match the needs of their toon's build.

Crafting was never a second thought in Istaria, but was designed from the beginning. There is no need to wish for  Elite mobs in Istaria drop formulas that only master crafters can use, since that's what happens in Istaria. After 6+ years, they continue to add new items to make, to keep the crafters busy and happy.

If you LOVE to craft, and are looking for a less intense gaming experience, where what YOU do defines what you gat and how far you can go, you owe it to yourself to try out Istaria.

I miss SWG crafting.  It's pretty much all I miss about the game since they (in my opinion) completely messed it up (Zombies?  In Star Wars?  Man, was I glad I left that game when I heard about that!), but oh man, do I miss it.

Conversely, I do not care for crafting in LoTRO, WoW, or pretty much any other game I have played since.  Granted, I craft, but I do so because "x" person in my guild needs "y" items.  I generally choose my crafting professions in games now to benefit the guild the most (Quartermaster) rather than because I actually enjoy them (as I did in SWG, where crafting was about 90% of my gameplay and I enjoyed it immensely).

I personally would like to see games veer away from what has now become the "standard" in crafting, because it's tedious and boring (to me, at least) and go back towards a UO or even an old-style SWG approach...but that takes time & money, so it's unlikely we'll see it anytime soon.

Interesting article.   I know some players that have a dedicated crafting alt, who supplies all the other alts.   I tend to be one of those.

I never cared much for Wow's crafting.    By and large, the items were far too inferior to what could be had through questing, and the majority of the few really good items were BoA.   BoA for a crafted item!    Absolutely moronic, imo.    That means that only the crafter can make it and use it, so you'd better be the appropriate class or don't even bother.

Sovrath made a good point about the dangers of having crafted items superior to drops.    As someone who enjoys crafting, I have to admit the wisdom of this.    However, some games, like Lotro, let the dedicated crafter create items that are almost as good as the best drops.    It takes quite of bit of time and resources to get your crafting to that point, but I like the idea.   It gives those soloers, such as myself, another method to acquire top end items.    Alternative options are a good thing.

Even though the crafting isn't very deep, my favorite MMO, City of Heroes, makes it possible for anyone to acquire any item.    Rare recipe drops can and do happen at the top level, and you have an equal chance of getting them whether soloing or on a team.     I wish more MMOs allowed players to get the items they want without forcing them to team up to do so.    I'm not looking to make soloing superior, I just like the alternative option.

The original crafting system in Vanguard was hands down my favorite. Tons of things that only crafters could make. A nice complex system of making slight variations on items. Boats were awesome, tons of crafted housing components and items.  Every crafted item had a tag showing who made it. I havent seen a crafting system even close to it in other games.

But... then the dreaded sony deathtouch appeared and nerfed the heck out of virtually everything in vanguard, including crafting. 

Ugh really?  You make mention of SWG's launch crafting and go on and on yet only give a passing mention to Eve Online?  Honestly the fact that pretty much every friggin item in the EVE world can and is made by players means quite a bit! 

Sure the actual act of crafing is pretty dull (I was a miner so I spent many an hour watching rocks get smaller and smaller. :) ) but the economic benefits and the ability to play the game in entirely non-combat roles deserves more than a footnote.  Heck just hauling raw materials was a job in itself.  

Hate crafting - get rid of it.  Use the developers wasting their time on it to create more, better content.

I play an mmo for the pew pew not the sew sew.

I've crafted in a few MMOs. (Wish planetside had some crafting/engineering/etc).  WoW, while being a long and addicting game, has a weak crafting system.

Now, there are lots of professions. There are TONS of things you can make and a million different kinds of materials.  Thats not the issue.  It all sounds VERY robust.

The issues are:

1) utility. - crafting, no matter the profession, ends up being a money sink and waste of materials. MOST of the stuff you can make isn't useful to you, desirable by others or anywhere NEAR the best item for your level/class.  I would say that the number is upwards of 95% wasted abilities. Who wants to make something that costs more in time and materials than simply leveling and running a dungeon would get you? no one does. This is why it is very rare to actually use anything you've crafted until end game.  UG.

2) UGLY - srsly wow. How hard would it be to allow simple COLOR dyes? C'mon! Everything is the same and most of the time your armor doesn't make a set.  The worst was Hellfire fruit-loops armor in BC but there are plenty of other examples.

3) illogical - I can be a master armorsmith. I can Make an epic/enchanted breastplate +158 stam....but I cannot repair it. I can't repair a lvl 1 PoS breastplate made of copper. I as a master armorsmith cannot make a better copper breastplate than the level 1 n00b smith? why? -

4) Not fun - between the wasted materials and costly (time wise especially) just to make 20 items that you don't need just to level a skill that, in the end, doesn't give you much of a leg up on anything. By the time mined and crafted 20 unobtanium breastplates, you've leveled past the point where the next useful item was.  Why are there so many useless crafted items?

5) Results don't last - no matter what you craft, it is soon replaced.  Because of the crappy quality and time involved in making it, the speed in which it is replaced further adds to the lack of enjoyment.  That one cool pattern with the glowing sword of death? Yeah. next level...its crappier than the ugly garbage drops from mobs in the next zone.

In the END game, there are a few that you can make some money.  Enchanting and Potions being the best. Some just SUCK. Glyphs, for example...Black Smithing is prety week. The best thign blacksmiths can do, is make belt sockets. Yay~

Clearly, crafting is not designed to make the game more fun. Its another time sink. Its a false sense of accomplisment. They dangle 1 or 2 worthy peices along the line to get you to keep it up. But other than that, its meant to get you to pay for another month of service cause you gotta get that next recipe.

If crafting made it more immersive and fun, it might, as the author said, run the risk of everyone doing it - and it might make the game easier  (less time played = less money paid).  WoW has a good solution to that.  Discoveries. Only a few crafts have it...but when its there, then you only have a few alchemists who have discovered the useful +hit potion. Suddenly, MY alchemy is useful - desireable and unique. But the difficulty of obtaining useful recipes during the leveling phase makes it poitnless to acquire them. At max level, sure.

If you want me to spend countless hours and waste tons of materials. At least make it LAST or be unique (player housing? guild halls?). I'm supposed to be a hero, right? How about crafting that makes me feel like i've done soemthing heroic...instead of drudgery.

I think a simple change could change WoWs crafting system frome useless to very worth while.  For example a weaponsmith can create an item level 200 2hander but it is a generic epic and depending on what materials are used you can manipulate the stats.  For example a Titansteel Destroyer has a damage range of 507-761, +124 str and +105 stam with 54 hit rating.  Now instead of making this specific weapon with specific stats you can create a Titansteel Destroyer but you maybe add x amount of crit strike rating potions to add crit strike rating at the cost of some of the hit rating or being able to get rid of the hit entirely and have +25crit and +29 haste depending on what components you add.  As item levels progress you can unlock, get as a drop, buy or somehow aquire a new generic weapon/armor template that you can manipulate the stats on so crafting is not a useless function. 

This would give crafters the ability to compete with raid drops and be able to participate more in the game.  Also making more items not BoP but making more items BoP so crafters can sell all of their wares instead of such a small percentage of crafted items being available for sale.  I think some minor changes could make crafting more usefull and trading of item components between crafters much more relevant.

Edit:  Crafted items dont have to necissairly be as powerfull as top end raid drops but at least give people the option of obtaining a crafted item that is on the level of but maybe not as good as a top end raid drop.  This would prevent some of the drugery of running X dungeon or heroic a million times hoping for those Boots of Epic Ass Stomping just to lose a roll to nomeones alt and not have the necissary gear to advance with your peers.

Now all we need are equal columns about PvE, PvP, overall gameplay, game mechanics ... of MMOs just like this one. The fun thing is when you break it into pieces, you can almost see a timeline, a trend. And I use 'almost' sparingly. Crafting, like most aspects in MMORPGs, has been on a decline. This column, while not entirely complete in its analysis, objectively portrays many aspects as to why.

This is my 1st reply to any discussion so here gos.

I'm a "candy" crafter. I really do'nt like the term "candy" i prefer "nessesity" (sic?).

I only get up to "blue" items that i craft not being into dungeon raids and the nice purple gear.

This is from the game World of Warcraft.

With the blue gear i can come close to the better armor and weapons. I also add enchants , potions, ect.

Since i do'nt PVP, it makes sense. So "candy" is a poor choice of wording in my case.

Not much of a reply i know , however i felt i needed to say it.

Crackshot of WOW.

P.S. I agree with DirtyJoe above. In WOW it would be more useful to be able to adjust the stats of weapons and other items.

Also i was speaking from the viewpoint of a Solo player.

Well the reasoning behind my post is that when you get to the higher end content of WoW there are very specific pieces of gear that you need to obtain to reach your potential.  At some point in your progression your need for a single item gets really really specific based on the stats.  Allowing crafted gear to fill those holes with a piece of gear that is maybe not quite as good but better than what is available and being able to adjust the stats to fit your specific "set" of armor or weapons would imo add to the overall expierence of the game and add crafting into the mix.

Nice article :) I also think that SWG, EVE and FE have nice crafting systems. Especially resource harvesting in SWG is an awesome system in the way it handles resources with different qualities. It rewards dedicated crafters who stay on top of the resource spawns.

I used to think that Vanguard's and EQ2's crafting system was very good too. Because in the way the crafting (minigame) process is handled (especially in VG). The learning curve was enjoyable. But the problem I experienced with that was because of the slow progress in crafting, it soon made that minigame very tedious for me after I learned all the tricks of crafting.

VG did some other things very well though. The way you could lvl crafting really independantly (workorders so no need to harvest resources for yourself) from combat and diplomacy. And how the other spheres also could enforce your crafting if you decided to. And the modifying of gear stats of course is very nice.

Even while I'm all in(to) New Eden nowadays (enjoying and prospering on its economy and "crafting" a lot) , and knowing that I might be necro'ing an almost buried & forgotten game, I'll throw another one into the room:

I think an article about crafting (and necessarily resource-gathering, aka harvesting) should at least mention Ryzom.

IMHO, Ryzom also gives a nice example of the crafting (and harvesting) part keeping a game alive almost all by itself ;-)

Originally posted by Sovrath

I can't stand crafting and rarely if ever do it.

However I could imagine a system where I think it would be fun. I had made a similar post elsewhere:

 

I'll tell you that I hate crafting. Despise it. Loath it. If it was removed from every game that I play from now until death I would rejoice. Probably pay more money per month on my own just to thank the game maker.

That's how much I hate it. And I'm being nice. I rarely if NEVER craft in games.

However, I noticed something a few years ago while messing with a neverwinter nights trainer for characters.

Among many of the things it had was the ability to change all sorts of things on the weapons and armor.

You could change 3 parts of the looks of a sword (pommel, Hilt and Blade Shape ... maybe even different parts of the blade) or change several parts on the armor along with simple dying of the item. This was using the in game art that the toolset had.

I would redesign the weapons and armor for hours. I suddenly realized I don't hate crafting in the sense of "making something new". I hate gathering bits upon bits that make more bits so that I can reproduce some in game item that will be replaced by some boss drop.

 so....

 My utopian crafting system has more to do with a crafting mini-game, maybe something along the same lines of the game "Enigmo" as far as manipulating crafting elements, and a way to create "designs" so that there is control over the look of the item. Or in the case of a potion "what" that potion actually does.

It shows you rarely craft, because what you mention is done in several MMO's. SWG weapon's system lets the crafter chose the elemental dmg, which in turn also affects the colour of the bolt thats shot. This is also for PVP sake of course, so other players can recognise fast what ele type you use (different ele types cause different procs).

Stat modding is done in several MMO's. First that come up in my mind are again SWG (weaponsystem/spacecomponent system) and Vanguard.

The minigame is there in Vanguard,SWG and EQ2.

Where SWG has a combination of used resource modding and something called experimentation in which you get to chose what stat to try to improve. 

Then there is also modding afterwards in SWG with RE system.

SWG (especially weapon and spaceship component crafting) offers great variety in crafting. Resource quality, crafting gear (specifically mod for crafting bonusses), tools/crafting stations, location (research city), food, ent buffs, there are loads of things that can affect how efficient you are as crafter. Downside is that TCG (non crafted) items and lack of resell makes it tough for new crafters.

Hmm, I have to agree with Jennings on some of that article.

Getting a good crafting system into a game hasnt happened for much of anyone lately.

I found the nudges at UO correct as it was my first mmo and partially agreed with the points at swg, it was a pretty deep system, needed some improvement but yea overall I enjoyed it. I wouldnt make a guy craft thousands of items to grind for cap but i would however encourage a system where a player would enjoy crafting thousands of items to sell and be a part of the world he is in, in his own way. HIs own class or a skill points allocated just for crafting and mining.

In my opinion, if developers put as much effort into crafting systems and virtual economies as they do the combat systems that they put crafting in to compliment, this article would never have seen the light of day. The problem and general consensus amongst players has been as you can see by the ops article and from the posts in this forum are time syncs.

Old tale be told? Crafting according to mmo myth was introduced due to players duping items. Im guessing a little later on down the line developers saw time syncs as a way to keep people playing and resubbing *cough* CCP excuse me sorry, must be catching a cold. Somewhere around there, we had some sort of ugly collision of boredom grind and wasted money.

Eitherway a good example is actually CCP's eve online. Here you have this game where if you dont want to shoot someone every hour of the day you literally dont have to. If you dont want to craft any items you again literally dont have to. If youd rather do neither of those yo ucan just trade. The sheer variety of the game gives you options in replayability. The combat and the economy work together and it works out for everyone. They have a good model set up, a very large virtual economy and combat system altogether, I didnt so much enjoy the lack of wasd? But thats another post.. The skill training however, is the time sync. Rather than grind thousands of items, your grinding time.

In uo, I recall standing at the forge in Britain, crafting mail, shields and doing repairs. Sometimes when no tips were given and no armor was sold it was enough for me to know that a player somewhere was wearing something I made and either got his first pvp kill, or was just buying his first armor and weapon set from my vendor. It was fun meeting all those people as well. Filling orders came later and that actually added to the experience however... uos crafting also became a time sync. I enjoyed being on both sides of that forge, not only as the smith but as the warrior coming through for new armor and weapon repairs. I didnt enjoy the time sync.

Now when players jump in forums these days hollarin :Screw crafting! Im not crafting! id pay for you not to put it in! and on the other hand you have these folks who are asking you for a "fun" indepth crafting system that works in a robust economy. Nether is asking you as a developer for a time sync Theyre telling you literally they dont want to waste thier time.

Its odd the whole crafting issue thats come up over the years and how people have come to hate it while others seem to look for it first in an mmo. All I know is, when i look at an mmo to see if im going to play it or not, I want the full 15 bucks per month for my game, dont give me hack and slash everytime I log in but dont throw time syncs at me either.

*Warning - Long Post*

My ideal crafting system -

First off, you split the gathering/harvesting into two basic types - combat and non-combat.

1. Combat harvesting -

First you'd have Scavenging. Berries, roots, moss, flowers,seeds.. things you would only find out in the "open world" of the game, in the wilds so to speak, and as such to get them you risk combat since the wilds are full of mobs/npcs per typical MMO. These things used in lots of things from potions to food/drink consumables and poisons, salves, etc. So this is exploration + gathering with a chance of combat.

Secondly you have Salvaging. Getting skins/furs/meats/bones and such from animals and monsters/beasts for crafting, and/or sraps of metal, ingrediants for potions, cloth/rags/furs and such from NPC humanoids. This would obviously require you to kill said target before Salvaging. This is combat + gathering.

Third you have let's call it Mysticism. Loot from this gathering profession would be magical essence, refined into shards/crystals/whatever to be used for things like enchanting, crafting magical equipment, whatever. Main tool would be a "divining rod" of sorts, would pretty much point you in the general direction of a strong source of magical current. Like "go east" and you pretty much have to track the source down. So it's a mix of exploration, and then when you get to the source of the magical current, then it'd "summon" a guardian of that magical form you have to defeat in combat and then loot from it the shard/crystal/whatever of that magical type. So combat + exploration + gathering.

2. Non-combat harvesting -

First you go with Horticulture. In a players house, apartment, whatever, you could set up a table/basin and using various seeds you would grow flowers, small budding/fruit plants, fungi, etc. A very time dependant profession. Like you plant something and have to check on it every 24 hours, and do another step, or it'll wilt and die. Then eventual harvesting. You could tie some kind of mini-games into this, like trimming the branches off a bonsai tree. Watering it. Re-planting, etc. FFXI had something like this I believe.

The products from that could be used for Alchemy and as such you could set up an alchemists work bench in your house/room or use NPC shops in a town/city. Also you could sell/use some products for Farming profession. Alchemy would give potions, poisons, etc. and use materials from Horticulture or Scavenging, or both!

Now the next harvesting professions require a bit of pre-explaination.

I think it's stupid that you have to wander around looking for mining nodes. So instead, for the 3 "main" non-combat harvesting professions, you have resource sites. Farming, Mining, Lumberjacking.

Outside of towns/cities there are NPC run mines, lumber mills, and farms. As a player, if you want to harvest these resources you go and "work the mine" or "work the fields." Because these professions do not involve combat, the idea here is that time + effort = reward. The resource sites themselves work on a semi-instanced basis. For example, you go to a mine of say Copper Ore outside one of the newbie towns, due to the size and drop rate of the mine players are seperated out into 5-6 person instances. You don't have to group with these people, but for every 6 people who enter the mine a new instance is made. That way everyone has access to the nodes for resource gathering, but it is still not a completely solo experience or you CAN go in and work with friends/guildies. I could see mini-games made where you have to strike at the rock around a chunk of valuable metal to knock it loose or something.

Because it is guaranteed access to resources, the NPC owners of the mines/fields/lumber yards take a cut of what is gathered like the taxes in EvE Online for selling/refining. You can sell the raw ore/wood/produce to the NPC owners and they take a money tax, or you can keep the resources you harvested and the NPC owners take a small cut. As your skill in mining/farming/lumberjacking goes up, or you gain reputation or something with that site or mining/farming/LJ guild, the cut they take gets smaller and smaller.

Also as your skill increases, you can harvest more faster improving efficiency, and have access to more complex and "higher level" resources - like moving from the Copper mines to the Silver mines etc.

Farming would include things like plowing, planting, tilling, and harvesting - from things likes corn, beans, fruits, other vegetables, whatever. It's like Farmville but inside a MMO - it's obviously popular. You'd have different farms for different crops you could go and work. Again, taking a cut of the profit being paid for your work and gaining skill or taking the raw resource for use in food / potion / whatever production. Again I could see some fairly interesting mini-games to keep things interesting.

As part of Farming you could have things like Herding, which makes me think of the herding mini-game for horse-back riding they had in the Legend of Zelda game for the Wii. You couldn't obviously have things like slaughtering animals for meat - definitely wouldn't go over too well lol. But you could have sheep for wool, cows for milk, chickens for eggs, etc. and leave the meat for the Salvaging folks.

Obviously a bit more explanation is needed but you get the point... Mining would probably be the most popular and used in the production of weapons, gadgets, armors, etc. Lumberjacking would be used from some weapons/shields and that kind of stuff, arrows, but PRIMARILY for the creating of furtinure, decorations, upgrades, and equipment for player housing. Then farming would be for out-of-combat recovery of HP/MP or whatever and out-of-combat buffing. (On the flip side, alchemy and potions used for in-combat HP/MP recovery and buffing.

3. One of the BIGGEST things about this crafting system is that everything is component based.

What that means, is that say you are a Blacksmith and you make Armor. To make low level armor, maybe you just need some Copper bars and some basic leather. But then to make mid-level armor, you need Copper bars, basic leather, Silver Bars, and some fine wool. And then for high-level armor, you'd need Copper bars, basic leather, Silver bars, fine wool, Mithril bars, and some magical essence.

The point is, you do NOT have a crafting system where the first 200 recipes you learn are just vendor trash to get your skill up towards max level when you actually make useful stuff.

What these does is allow those who choose to specialize in a specific crafting profession or two have access to make all the high end stuff. But it also lets those who wish to be more broadly skilled and dabble a bit to still provide materials and components that other higher end crafters will always have a demand for. It helps early noob crafters as the stuff they make/use is never obsolete, it helps the mid-level for the same reasons. It also creates a great system of inter-dependances between players.

You could even specialize in low and mid level crafting resources and become highly efficient at their extraction and refinement, you could include a purity rating or quality values like SWG had so that people who choose to focus on the bottom end of the resource spectrum can really specialize in materials rather then production of goods like the high-level crafting specialists.

Again, more detail needed but I think the point is clear.

4. Finally, economy is a large portion of any crafting system.

One thing I hate is un-regulated auction houses. If players are allowed to charge whatever they want for items and resources they put on the auction house, it always lead to rapid inflation and devaluation of a good. Anyone who plays World of Warcraft and sees a stack of Copper Ore, the most basic mining resource, on the Auction house for 15g certainly understands. This inflation makes prices that low-level and leveling crafters can never afford, and creates a system where money just changes hands between high-level crafters who can afford it and as such drives prices up even more. Controlling and "fixing" the prices is essential for my component-based crafting to work.

Price control could be based on a variety of factors - First off every sellable object would be given a base value dependant upon static variables like the quality of the item (common, rare, etc.) , the rarity of its drop (crafted, boss loot, mob trash, etc.) and finally the NPC price NPC vendors will pay for it. 

Then, using simple tools (like WoW's 3rd party addons) you can easily determine how much of a specific item is currently for sale on the system, how quickly these items sell, and average price over given periods of time. Using this data, you take that Base Value of an item you are given a range of prices you can list the item for on the Auction House.

For example, a stack of Copper Ore has a base value of 15 silver, but due to an over-abundance of copper ore on the market at the time, and multi-week/month trends in the market the available selling prices for a stack can go from 9 silver to 16 silver. Then it's up to the player if they wish to try and sell at the bottom of 9s a stack or risk on scarcity and product flow to catch a higher price like 14 or 15 silver.

To really add a layer of depth, you can do what EvE does where a specific good is searchable anywhere, but the location it is placed on auction matters. A certain area may have an abundance of the ore, like a town next to a copper mine, but another village which is far away has little to no copper ore so the price is higher. Players can make a purchase where the price is lowest but then have to travel and pick it up from the mailbox in that village or town, or they can pay a fee and have the item delivered to their current location in say an hour, or to their home city or whatever, or they can buy a higher priced good on the local market and have it immediately.

This allows you to buy low, travel, and sell high. For the market to be dynamic and moving like in EvE.

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This combination of systems allows for players to choose their own crafting experience, from a more combat out-in-the-world approach where if you are killing stuff, you might as well gather resources and craft - to a more dedicated and market oriented approach of time+effort invested = reward and if you play the system smart you can make lots of cash without ever stepping foot in combat.

This also should eliminate much of the risk of inflation and greedy overpricing that ruins most MMO economies, while still leaving room for adventurous entrepreneurs to really attack the market and make a buck for their wit and patience.

It ALSO prevents crafting from becoming a real grind to the top as all of the steps and layers are important and useful, letting those who wish to specialize really get the most out of it and the more casual crafters to still have fun and be a valued part of the economy. It keeps new players to the game and alts fresh and active in the economy and crafting game.

This ALSO prevents low level areas from becoming ghost towns as the low level resources outside these towns and villages are always imporant.

For the high level crafter, you will always have the option of buying the low level good and components off the market or doing it yourself. For the dabbler, you can put a hand in everything and still be an important part of the economy without having to specialize.

Again sorry for the long post - any thoughts to anyone who read the whole thing?

i love crafting. today i am even trying mmorpgs i know i dont want to play just to try their crafting system, to see if there is some interesting idea. i love minigame like crafting (eq2, vg), which makes crafting process itself more interesting and also like in depth robust crafting systems like the one wurm has, where you have to create different subcomponents to create final item.

what i lack the most with the more or less all crafting systems i met is the fact, that no matter how much time you spend with crafting, after some times you get to the cap, where everyone is able to make same items, no matter if he spends most of his time crafting or he if he has crafting only as a complementary system to raiding/going to dungeons/pvping etc.

i did try to put together system i would like to have - check this:

http://rapidshare.com/files/364608683/craftingv2Askill1.xls

it is written in excel VBA (sorry :) )

only LW is working BS is there only as a part of the future update and to test "Recipe List" macro

if it seems to you that there is only too little options, try to increase LW skilllevel on Skill Tab

Originally posted by heerobya

<*snip*>

Again sorry for the long post - any thoughts to anyone who read the whole thing?

Well, a few thoughts:

-The continued viability of early resources for later recipes is something that I'm generally in favour of, but not always. I'm reminded of PotBS, where all ships needed basic things like oak and sails, but the better boats required more of the base components, plus precious mats on top of that. Not perfect, but still pretty nice, and made even the newcomers economic factors in the end-game. The one drawback is that it encourages alt-harvesting, where you get a heard of low-level alts grinding a basic resource, which can ruins things for the genuine lower-levelers, making it harder for them to achieve anything economicially. This is obviously more of a problem with F2P games, since at least you have to buy a second account to do it with P2P.

-Instance-based harvesting is an open ticket for rampant botting, since it's so difficult for others to see and report them. And that way lies a borked economy. If the harvesting can't be done open-world, or there's too much competition for a resource there, that's often a sign of bad design.

-For what it's worth, I HATE regulated AH's. The majority of problems that people ascribe to them are simply symptoms of underlying problems. The inflation problem you mentioned (Copper=15G) is usually a symptom of base resource scarcity. If a basic good is genuinely so rare that supply-and-demand market forces have jacked it up, then clearly no one is producing it for some reason. Or, if the price is high because someone is trying to artificially force prices excesively high, that's just an opportunity for a good businessman to put up his own goods for almost that high, thus either selling it normally to people who grab the cheaper price, or forcing the price-fixer to buy it himself. Either way, it's a situation that will remedy itself as long as the resource is available and some people in the market have half a brain in their skulls.

Originally posted by Mehve

Well, a few thoughts:

-The continued viability of early resources for later recipes is something that I'm generally in favour of, but not always. I'm reminded of PotBS, where all ships needed basic things like oak and sails, but the better boats required more of the base components, plus precious mats on top of that. Not perfect, but still pretty nice, and made even the newcomers economic factors in the end-game. The one drawback is that it encourages alt-harvesting, where you get a heard of low-level alts grinding a basic resource, which can ruins things for the genuine lower-levelers, making it harder for them to achieve anything economicially. This is obviously more of a problem with F2P games, since at least you have to buy a second account to do it with P2P.

-Instance-based harvesting is an open ticket for rampant botting, since it's so difficult for others to see and report them. And that way lies a borked economy. If the harvesting can't be done open-world, or there's too much competition for a resource there, that's often a sign of bad design.

-For what it's worth, I HATE regulated AH's. The majority of problems that people ascribe to them are simply symptoms of underlying problems. The inflation problem you mentioned (Copper=15G) is usually a symptom of base resource scarcity. If a basic good is genuinely so rare that supply-and-demand market forces have jacked it up, then clearly no one is producing it for some reason. Or, if the price is high because someone is trying to artificially force prices excesively high, that's just an opportunity for a good businessman to put up his own goods for almost that high, thus either selling it normally to people who grab the cheaper price, or forcing the price-fixer to buy it himself. Either way, it's a situation that will remedy itself as long as the resource is available and some people in the market have half a brain in their skulls.

Crafting alts were a reality in more crafting focused MMOs like UO and SWG. How to counter that? Well, do you have to? Having players who keep a second toon "locked" at the lower tier of harvesting will create more competition and increase the availability of goods and resources and as such due to the control on the Auction house - reduce prices so the ACTUAL newbie crafters won't be hurt, they'll be able to afford to participate.

It's the alts of high-level toons who jack up the prices on low-level crafting resources, but by regulating the AH in a similar situation as I described, you literally can't do that.

And as for scarcity, if the low level resources are so very needed by high level crafters, both low level crafters and crafting alts who cap themselves have motivation to farm these resources and thus reduce scarcity.

Originally posted by heerobya

Crafting alts were a reality in more crafting focused MMOs like UO and SWG. How to counter that? Well, do you have to? Having players who keep a second toon "locked" at the lower tier of harvesting will create more competition and increase the availability of goods and resources and as such due to the control on the Auction house - reduce prices so the ACTUAL newbie crafters won't be hurt, they'll be able to afford to participate.

It's the alts of high-level toons who jack up the prices on low-level crafting resources, but by regulating the AH in a similar situation as I described, you literally can't do that.

And as for scarcity, if the low level resources are so very needed by high level crafters, both low level crafters and crafting alts who cap themselves have motivation to farm these resources and thus reduce scarcity.

Not quite sure how the alts jack up prices. If anything, they act to lower overall prices. If they alt-harvest to just sell stuff, they work to increase the market supply, which lowers prices (although this can affect the ability of lower levels to make money sometimes). Or, they alt-harvest in order to bypass the normal economic process (i.e. they don't want to pay any markups), which works to lower the demand for the product in the main economy, which also works to lower prices.

But regulation? How do you decide on fair prices? At best, all you can do is look at the cost to produce, and assign an abitrary maximum markup. And that's assuming the game's production system doesn't involve factors such as geography (i.e. distance, danger zones) and inconsistant returns (i.e. random odds of success). But as I said before, unless some aspect of the game prevents it, a proper economy WILL counteract price-gouging in the long run. Regulation is a bandaid solution, it doesn't fix an underlying problem.

Just a quick jump in on the "price controls" idea I'm totally against that.  One, because I'm against them in real life.  Two, and more importantly all it does artificially reduces the supply.  Currently in WoW we are charge 15G for a stack of copper right, but what if we limited it to say 25S for the same stack.  What reason do I have as a miner to put my stuff on the AH if I can't make anything off the time I wasted getting the rocks? 

Price Controls only ruin supplies because it puts a break on the supply and demand mechanics that are neccissary for any good economy.  Far better to make "zones" of supply like you mention in EVE.  Being able to only sell in an area allows for commodity trading and finding areas with better supplies and lower demands. 

Originally posted by GozerTC

Just a quick jump in on the "price controls" idea I'm totally against that.  One, because I'm against them in real life.  Two, and more importantly all it does artificially reduces the supply.  Currently in WoW we are charge 15G for a stack of copper right, but what if we limited it to say 25S for the same stack.  What reason do I have as a miner to put my stuff on the AH if I can't make anything off the time I wasted getting the rocks? 

Price Controls only ruin supplies because it puts a break on the supply and demand mechanics that are neccissary for any good economy.  Far better to make "zones" of supply like you mention in EVE.  Being able to only sell in an area allows for commodity trading and finding areas with better supplies and lower demands. 

Not regulating an economy does NOT work in real life, as anyone can see in the United States with all the problems we are experiencing.

However in real life, you have some natural factors that can help weigh out the risk of greedy, selfish, immoral business practices - things like jail, loss of your job, bankruptcy, etc. unless you bail them out for failing that is...

These things do not exist in a MMORPG market, even one as significant as EvE's. In fact EvE does do some price regulation by having a system of NPC suppliers and buyers to offset demand and supply for the player run economy.

I think recently they announced plans to change that and I think it is a terrible idea.

You really can't compare a real world economy to one in a MMORPG, even EvE. There are simply too many variables in a real life economy to calculate, and obvious no one can calculate a real world economy or being a stock broker would be far too easy of a job.

So in a virtual, fake economy you HAVE to have some control to it. And because it is less complex then a real world one you can control it easier. You can calculate everything out because you can see EVERY transaction and every penny.

Originally posted by GozerTC

Just a quick jump in on the "price controls" idea I'm totally against that.  One, because I'm against them in real life.  Two, and more importantly all it does artificially reduces the supply.  Currently in WoW we are charge 15G for a stack of copper right, but what if we limited it to say 25S for the same stack.  What reason do I have as a miner to put my stuff on the AH if I can't make anything off the time I wasted getting the rocks? 

Price Controls only ruin supplies because it puts a break on the supply and demand mechanics that are neccissary for any good economy.  Far better to make "zones" of supply like you mention in EVE.  Being able to only sell in an area allows for commodity trading and finding areas with better supplies and lower demands. 

 Putting price controls in a game would NOT work.   Why?   Because if copper, selling for curring 15G per stack was forcibly maxed at 25S, players would simply stop putting it on the AH and then a black market would start up.   No one but the occasional noob would put copper on the AH for 25S, and those would be instantly bought up only to be resold on the black market.

Markets like this regulate themselves.   Ultimately, the price is determined by the buyers, not the sellers, because the market will only bear what people are willing to pay.   If someone put copper up at 100G a stack, no one would buy it.   Competitive sellers would undercut that price until an equilibrium is reached, and currently that price is around 15G a stack.  

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by GozerTC

Just a quick jump in on the "price controls" idea I'm totally against that.  One, because I'm against them in real life.  Two, and more importantly all it does artificially reduces the supply.  Currently in WoW we are charge 15G for a stack of copper right, but what if we limited it to say 25S for the same stack.  What reason do I have as a miner to put my stuff on the AH if I can't make anything off the time I wasted getting the rocks? 

Price Controls only ruin supplies because it puts a break on the supply and demand mechanics that are neccissary for any good economy.  Far better to make "zones" of supply like you mention in EVE.  Being able to only sell in an area allows for commodity trading and finding areas with better supplies and lower demands. 

 Putting price controls in a game would NOT work.   Why?   Because if copper, selling for curring 15G per stack was forcibly maxed at 25S, players would simply stop putting it on the AH and then a black market would start up.   No one but the occasional noob would put copper on the AH for 25S, and those would be instantly bought up only to be resold on the black market.

Markets like this regulate themselves.   Ultimately, the price is determined by the buyers, not the sellers, because the market will only bear what people are willing to pay.   If someone put copper up at 100G a stack, no one would buy it.   Competitive sellers would undercut that price until an equilibrium is reached, and currently that price is around 15G a stack.  

Tell that to the real true new character that just need half a stack off the AH to finish crafting themselves a new item. 7g? What the hell I've never made even close to 7g!

Obviously it can't be a "simple" way to regulate price, but you HAVE to do something.

Look at the EvE economy versus that of a games like WoW.

You don't think EvE regulates their economy?

The tightly control currency in game by tweaking mission rewards, having NPC buyers/sellers to supliment the market, and even using Plex.

But also due to the way my component based crafting would work as discussed earlier, the low level crafting resources will always be in such demand that it won't be just the alts of veterans and those wishing to power-level a new crafting profession that are farming and selling the goods.

This would generally make the inflationary problem rampant in most MMOs a moot point, and thus negate much need for strict regulation, maybe only a "helping hand" every once in a while with something like AI/NPC injected merchandise into the market to keep prices at fair levels.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by GozerTC

Just a quick jump in on the "price controls" idea I'm totally against that.  One, because I'm against them in real life.  Two, and more importantly all it does artificially reduces the supply.  Currently in WoW we are charge 15G for a stack of copper right, but what if we limited it to say 25S for the same stack.  What reason do I have as a miner to put my stuff on the AH if I can't make anything off the time I wasted getting the rocks? 

Price Controls only ruin supplies because it puts a break on the supply and demand mechanics that are neccissary for any good economy.  Far better to make "zones" of supply like you mention in EVE.  Being able to only sell in an area allows for commodity trading and finding areas with better supplies and lower demands. 

 Putting price controls in a game would NOT work.   Why?   Because if copper, selling for curring 15G per stack was forcibly maxed at 25S, players would simply stop putting it on the AH and then a black market would start up.   No one but the occasional noob would put copper on the AH for 25S, and those would be instantly bought up only to be resold on the black market.

Markets like this regulate themselves.   Ultimately, the price is determined by the buyers, not the sellers, because the market will only bear what people are willing to pay.   If someone put copper up at 100G a stack, no one would buy it.   Competitive sellers would undercut that price until an equilibrium is reached, and currently that price is around 15G a stack.  

Tell that to the real true new character that just need half a stack off the AH to finish crafting themselves a new item. 7g? What the hell I've never made even close to 7g!

Obviously it can't be a "simple" way to regulate price, but you HAVE to do something.

Look at the EvE economy versus that of a games like WoW.

You don't think EvE regulates their economy?

The tightly control currency in game by tweaking mission rewards, having NPC buyers/sellers to supliment the market, and even using Plex.

 No, you don't HAVE to do anything.   Any true market will regulate itself, and the prices will ALWAYS eventually settle at what the market will bear.     This is basic economics.     Obviously, you have a problem with paying 15G for a stack of copper, but obviously many buyers do not, otherwise copper would not sell at 15G.   Simple.  

Good article. 

Crafting should be one of the none combat things you can do in any MMO. Combat is fun but it shouldn't be the only thing you do when you play.

Broker/auction house is something that is a lot less fun than stores. EQ2 have both but few people actually go to someone store instead of shopping at the broker even if it is cheaper. Preferably should players either be able to have a store in the guildhall/guild city or in a un-instanced place in the game. If cities have a market district with larger store and some stands with npcs selling the players stuff it would make shopping a lot more fun.

The big problem with crafting in most games is that you make exactly the same junk as everyone else. There is no design or even color part of crafting. There is no enchanters that can enchant a already made item with some abilities (adding gems or similar things is not the same). I want a full ritual where the enchanter spend a little while doing some nice animations to add to the feel.

There should not be any need for a crafter to adventure, you should be able to just craft if you want to, even if you might have to trade for some of the rarer components then.

There should of course be other non combat activities for players also. Like gambling, advanced running of the guild (design the guild castle or city, renting in and designing npc for the same, even minting coins), burglary ala "Thief" and many more things.

Originally posted by heerobya

But also due to the way my component based crafting would work as discussed earlier, the low level crafting resources will always be in such demand that it won't be just the alts of veterans and those wishing to power-level a new crafting profession that are farming and selling the goods.

This would generally make the inflationary problem rampant in most MMOs a moot point, and thus negate much need for strict regulation, maybe only a "helping hand" every once in a while with something like AI/NPC injected merchandise into the market to keep prices at fair levels.

Actually, no, that component-based crafting setup actually contributes to inflation, by making the base materials desirable to the group of people who have the largest amounts of money - namely the higher level characters. If the only people who want an item are poor, an item won't - can't - sell for high prices.

And while I personally have no experience with WoW myself, it sounds like 15G for a stack of Copper represents a huge markup over what it costs to produce. So why aren't people making easy money by selling stacks for 14G? In any proper economy, that's exactly what should be happening, unless something is preventing it from happening.

As for your EVE example - of course they regulate their economy. All MMO's have to. If they don't, things collapse. But  it's properly done by controlling how the wealth enters (i.e. quest rewards) and exits (gold-sinks) the system, NOT by assigning limits to what things can sell for.

Originally posted by SwampRob

 No, you don't HAVE to do anything.   Any true market will regulate itself, and the prices will ALWAYS eventually settle at what the market will bear.     This is basic economics.     Obviously, you have a problem with paying 15G for a stack of copper, but obviously many buyers do not, otherwise copper would not sell at 15G.   Simple.  

You just don't see that 15g for a stack of copper which should sell at 15s and sells to vendors for 11s is a GROSSLY inflated price that is grossly inflated due to 5 years of horrible in-game economy and two expansions that did nothing but add to the inflation of the economy by upping quest rewards, and also a 5 year old game with way too much RMT gold selling.

I am all about capitalism, but MMOs do not feature real life economics. They just don't.

It is NOT basic economics of supply and demand it does not apply in a fake, virtual economy because they basic factors of economics in real life are not present in a MMO because it is NOT real life.

Every MMO puts some control on their money supply.

They adjust flight costs, training costs, quest rewards, vendor prices, even drop rates and material costs for crafted items ALL in response to market factors within their game.

And the 15g per stack only works in WoW because the VAST majority of players are at end game or alts with main toons at max level and they can justify spending way too much on the AH because gold is easy to come by at level 80.

It completely and totally f's new players who are actually low levels and don't have bank toons.

Supply and demand mean nothing in the world of warcraft auction house.

Whoever places the first of an item on the AH sets the price.

After that, it's all just undercutting and bull "economics" there is no true supply/demand in MMOs.

EvE may be the exception, but that is simply because it is an economy focused game with NPC supplemented supply and a tightly controlled money supply.

Trust me, I 4.0'd macro and micro economics in college... rofl

But seriously, the vast majority of people do NOT understand real life economics at all, why should I expect MMO gamers to understand fake economies any better?

Here's a game to toss into the discussion that probably no one else has played: Rohan. It's been a few years since I played and I didn't play it for very long, but I was hooked on the forging system.

In Rohan, you couldn't craft gear from raw materials but you could craft it from other pieces of gear. Take the level 8 leather boots and the level 12 leather boots and a little money, and you can combine them into the level 16 leather boots. All dropped items have random stat bonuses and can also have random stat requirements. This winds up giving you a lot of things that aren't useful (like wands with a large str bonus or str requirement), but also makes the crafting hugely important. Why's that? Because combining two items brings along the worse of the requirements and the total of all the bonuses. A dropped level 44 dagger might randomly have some dex or some agi, but you could custom-make a level 44 dagger with enormous bonuses in whatever stat you want — much higher than you would ever see on a dropped version — by scouring the game for basic items with that stat bonus (so long as none of them have requisites that you don't meet) and then mashing them together in succession until you make your way up to the level 44 dagger. That is... assuming that you don't FAIL.

Yeah, you could fail and lose the item. I'm surprised that the issue of random chance didn't make its way into the article, as people have some strong opinions one way or the other about that. I feel that random chance in crafting is pretty important. It adds a little excitement to what is otherwise just a progress bar moving across the screen. Without any chance of failure or critical success, the price of an item really ought to be about the same as the price of the materials, plus perhaps a tiny bit extra to offset the time and expense that the crafter spent levelling up his skill. If there is a chance that the outcome of the craft could be good or bad (or nothing) depending on luck, then that simple formula doesn't apply. For that HQ Steel Axe, you're paying not just for the materials and their time, but also acknowledging the gamble that they took and happened to win. There's no simple formula for determining how much that risk is worth, which makes the market for that item even less predictable.

Originally posted by Mehve

Actually, no, that component-based crafting setup actually contributes to inflation, by making the base materials desirable to the group of people who have the largest amounts of money - namely the higher level characters. If the only people who want an item are poor, an item won't - can't - sell for high prices.

The high level players can afford to get their goods at whatever location they happen to be in for the price of convenience, instead of having to make the trip to the low level village right next to said copper mine for the cheapest price.

Or they'll pay to have the item(s) shipped from the auction house in that village.

And even if they do throw a lot of money at the system, it only helps the low level crafters.

The low level crafters can mine the resources because it doesn't require very much skill. And sell at a primium because they high level players are too lazy to make the trip or to harvest the low level stuff themselves.

And because everyone wants the copper, but not everyone is willing to do the work, and newer players can only get the copper, it all balances out.

As with EvE it's all about market availability and location. Dividing into regions and different prices based on location.

They simply do not have this in WoW, and also in WoW the copper is used for nothing but low level recipes, and as such it sells high on the auction house because of twinks and power-levelers with alts and bank toons.

And by assigning absolute value and then adjusting selling prices based upon true supply and demand curves, everyone wins.

MMO auction houses are like if each McDonalds in the country was allowed to set their own prices with no repercussions. The employees won't get fired and lose their homes and their kids will strarve if no one comes to their store - they just collect the goods off the shelf after they expire and try again. No real life consequences for bad business practices.

Sure, some will be competitive and try and haggle for a good price with their fellow store owners, but there will always be those that just want to undercut everyone.

But since whenever you go to McDonalds you see the prices of every store and instantly get the food delivered to you no matter where the seller is, you always scoop up the cheapest stuff first.

But what prevents a owner from buying up all the low priced goods and then raising the price to change the bottom line and reselling it all because they can afford it?

Nothing.

         I think all games should have crafting. Only some games I've played have useful/enjoyable crafting. SWG crafting is still good..if you could get the materials. Vanguard had a great crafting system..but I never used much of the products I created. AoC...well.. I've gathered many materials but haven't  crafted anything yet. (Anyone tell me if it's any good?). I have maxed crafting skills on my one WOW character..(.My very first  and only toon). I do not particulary think WOW's crafting system is very good tho. Only a few things are useful prior to max level items. Pretty sad really. 

        Darkfall...MO...AO...COX..I've tried many systems...I'd say the one I enjoy most is Fallen Earth. It can take some effort to gather the materials...and though it is a basic click and wait system...you can still carry on with the questing. Good thing cause some things take hours before they are complete. I also like the intricacy ...e.g. making all the parts for a pistol from various materials you've gathered and/or created...then the pistol itself...not to mention you can make the ammo. ..but not before you make the gunpowder.  It's really a very detailed and diverse system. I think 99% of my items...clothes, armor, weapons...everything I made myself.  I am level 14 and although I am geared from self-made items..I do not feel gimped. Not in the least.

    . Of all the games I highly recommend FE if you like crafting. Also give SWG a try  if you haven't yet (yeah..i know people will say don't bother..but only you know what you like) as well as Vanguard ( which also has a fun Diplomacy system that works like a trading card game)...though I know little of what the population is currently for the latter 2 games.

Originally posted by heerobya

The high level players can afford to get their goods at whatever location they happen to be in for the price of convenience, instead of having to make the trip to the low level village right next to said copper mine for the cheapest price.

Or they'll pay to have the item(s) shipped from the auction house in that village.

And even if they do throw a lot of money at the system, it only helps the low level crafters.

The low level crafters can mine the resources because it doesn't require very much skill. And sell at a primium because they high level players are too lazy to make the trip or to harvest the low level stuff themselves.

And because everyone wants the copper, but not everyone is willing to do the work, and newer players can only get the copper, it all balances out.

As with EvE it's all about market availability and location. Dividing into regions and different prices based on location.

They simply do not have this in WoW, and also in WoW the copper is used for nothing but low level recipes, and as such it sells high on the auction house because of twinks and power-levelers with alts and bank toons.

Okay, I'm starting to lose you here. First you talk about a case of gross inflation hurting low-levels, but then you state that the low-levels can easily mine the stuff that's selling for the grossly inflated prices? Sounds fine to me.

If people are willing to pay the inflated prices, let them. You can't cure bad money-management, so you may as let the low-levels get the money. And if the low-levels don't want to mine copper (or whatever else is selling at excessive prices), that's their choice. But from what you say, it looks like Blizzard isn't doing a good job of managing how wealth enters their system. Price regulation isn't going to fix that - the excessive money will just go ruin another aspect of the economy.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by SwampRob

 No, you don't HAVE to do anything.   Any true market will regulate itself, and the prices will ALWAYS eventually settle at what the market will bear.     This is basic economics.     Obviously, you have a problem with paying 15G for a stack of copper, but obviously many buyers do not, otherwise copper would not sell at 15G.   Simple.  

You just don't see that 15g for a stack of copper which should sell at 15s and sells to vendors for 11s is a GROSSLY inflated price that is grossly inflated due to 5 years of horrible in-game economy and two expansions that did nothing but add to the inflation of the economy by upping quest rewards, and also a 5 year old game with way too much RMT gold selling.

I am all about capitalism, but MMOs do not feature real life economics. They just don't.

It is NOT basic economics of supply and demand it does not apply in a fake, virtual economy because they basic factors of economics in real life are not present in a MMO because it is NOT real life.

Every MMO puts some control on their money supply.

They adjust flight costs, training costs, quest rewards, vendor prices, even drop rates and material costs for crafted items ALL in response to market factors within their game.

And the 15g per stack only works in WoW because the VAST majority of players are at end game or alts with main toons at max level and they can justify spending way too much on the AH because gold is easy to come by at level 80.

It completely and totally f's new players who are actually low levels and don't have bank toons.

Supply and demand mean nothing in the world of warcraft auction house.

Whoever places the first of an item on the AH sets the price.

After that, it's all just undercutting and bull "economics" there is no true supply/demand in MMOs.

EvE may be the exception, but that is simply because it is an economy focused game with NPC supplemented supply and a tightly controlled money supply.

Trust me, I 4.0'd macro and micro economics in college... rofl

But seriously, the vast majority of people do NOT understand real life economics at all, why should I expect MMO gamers to understand fake economies any better?

 You said it yourself.   The 15G per stack works because the majority of players have rich alts.   That is why the price is what it is.   Yes, it sucks for new players.   Yes, it's unfair for new players.    But that is the price the market dictates that buyers are willing to pay, so that is the price it is.       I do not agree with you that the GMs need to step in and force price regulation, because it would create a black market.    If people are willing to pay 15G for a stack of copper, no sane person is going to be content selling it at 25S.   Stacks of copper will vanish off the AH, and people will start spamming they have copper to sell.

Originally posted by heerobya

And by assigning absolute value and then adjusting selling prices based upon true supply and demand curves, everyone wins.

MMO auction houses are like if each McDonalds in the country was allowed to set their own prices with no repercussions. The employees won't get fired and lose their homes and their kids will strarve if no one comes to their store - they just collect the goods off the shelf after they expire and try again. No real life consequences for bad business practices.

Sure, some will be competitive and try and haggle for a good price with their fellow store owners, but there will always be those that just want to undercut everyone.

But since whenever you go to McDonalds you see the prices of every store and instantly get the food delivered to you no matter where the seller is, you always scoop up the cheapest stuff first.

But what prevents a owner from buying up all the low priced goods and then raising the price to change the bottom line and reselling it all because they can afford it?

Nothing.

 

Firstly, a proper auction house WILL have a posting fee, set as a percentage of whatever they're trying to sell the product for. This keeps people from spamming excessive prices, since they'll wind up losing money if the product doesn't move. If this isn't present, yes you WILL have problems. That's a design flaw, not an argument for price-regulation.

As for price-fixing, I've seen plenty of attempts at price-fixing, and they usually fail, because people just uncut it with their own wares, forcing the price-fixer to keep buying more items, even if his aren't selling. Eventually, the price fixer just goes broke, with a warehouse full of stock that he paid too much for. Price fixing isn't possible if the item has sufficient supply. And if the item doesn't have sufficient supply, but is important/essential, there's a problem on the supply side of the item. Still not an argument for price-regulation.

I enjoy crafting for the most part... unless its a game where you can either spend your points in crafting or combat  (same point pool)... then I usually avoid it like the plague.

As to the merchant comments on the article, I have to agree.  I recall setting up merchants in EQ so I could buy junk back from them and then see everything players just sold to the npc and buy that for reselling.  Made a killing at it until they patched that process out.

If a game came out with 1/2 of the posted ideas above, I would consider seriously joining for years...lol.  Crafting does really add to the overall enjoyment and longevity of a game.  Every game I have spent more then a few months has had a more emmersive world with some sort of half decent crafting in it.

[quote]The problem with SWG was that the other game systems were not nearly as well designed as the crafting systems, so SWG rapidly became a game where the only people playing were crafters trying to sell wares to each other. What happens when everyone is a merchant? Well, in SWG’s case, the game is radically redesigned and no one is left happy. Whoops.[/quote]

Sorry Jennings, but WTF?

Youre telling me that SWG's major changes were brought about because "everyone was a merchant"? Fuck me, Ive seen some far-left-field editorials on mmorpg.com in my time but this takes the biscuit.

At no point before the NGE hit did SWG ever turn into a game of crafters selling to crafters.

Fact checking, its for everyone.

I'll take back everything I said only if this is an April Fools joke.

Ok, I've read most of the posts, and what I'm seeing is that people are afraid of high level players strong arming low levels and not allowing them fair competition.  I enjoy crafting, I'm more of a hobbyist.  I've played several games with crafting, SWG as a bio-engineer, bitch of a job to get.  EvE, mainly crafted ammo for self use.  EQ, got into crafting there so I could get the port potion, or whatever it was called, as a beastlord.

Now EvE has a robust trading system. People have been playing that game for years.  Just using their profits, they are able to play for free.  High level resources are primarirly found in 0.0 and below, medium 0.1 to 0.7 (I think), and low anything from 0.8 on, gross simplification.  Certain locations in that game have a fast turn over, low prices, and availability of items, Jita for example (shudders).  The further you go out from hubs, the more expensive items get.  Now you could always go to Jita and get whatever you need for the cheapest possible price, but you would have to travel there, which can and does take hours.  Or you can go to whatever is closer to you, pay a premium price, but get back to doing what you were doing before you went shopping.  Time is money after all.

As a new player in EvE, you can start making money right away, just start mining, and before long, you'll feel like you have a lot of money.  Admittedly, an experienced player in the same place can make significantly more profit than a newbie, especially due to having larger cargo holds.  By not having the primary way of selling being an AH, there is a more controlled economy.  Yes, some things get inflated every time new compenents/ships come out, but it is a good economy.

On the crafting side, it's boring. It is utterly down right boring.  Get resources needed, go to a factory set queue, start, wait and done.  Yes, you can research to make better items, but in the whole scheme of things, it's a boring process.  I could have skills to make significantly harder items than Tier 1 ammo, but my tier 1 ammo will turn out the exact same t1 ammo, that a newbie with minimal training makes, though quicker and with fewer resources.  Now ammo in EvE is something that shouldn't be meddled with, but ship components, I would love to train skills to make, say, an afterburner that increases speed by X, based on, maybe not a minigame, but heck, a roll of a die.

Here would be my semi perfect crafting economy scheme.

1. Resources should be easily available.  Maybe instanced as one poster mention, or maybe just a big, eventually, expendable piles (ie Asteroid belts in EvE).  If the resources are instanced, to help with botting, have randomly spawning mosters.  Maybe it won't stop, altogether, botting, but it will hinder it.
2. Items crafted should be competitive with dropped items.  I'm not saying they have to be better, or even equal, but if you want a Long Sword of Fury +6, you can either buy it, or camp a mob that may drop it and instead get the Long Sword of Fury +6 which decreases attack time by half a second.  Also make it that an item has a slim chance of lasting indefinitely, unless never used.  For a fantasy game that Sword of Fury is getting used alot, you need to repair and you do, it's not going to be as good as it was before, type, it might need repaired a little sooner next time.  Eventually the sword won't be worthwile having and you'll have to replace it, and not just because you got to old for it.
3. Make items be different based on each crafter.  Have skill trees that increase certain stats.  Say one for fire. The crafter that is on the fire tree makes weapons that deal fire damage and armors that defend against fire.  Have each skill level be significantly more expensive than the previous one.  So, someone that focuses solely on fire buffs might make a high level sword have a +200 damage.  And someone that dabbled in fire buffs might only be able to add +30 but since he has other skills, might be able to add +2 to str.  And since each crafter can have their own, semi unique items, players should be willing to buy more items based on situations they are going into.
4. Don't just make armor and weapon making the best crafting class.  Make all crafting neccessary.  That apothecary class, make buffs that last and stack with player buffs, and make them last long enough that you aren't afraid to buy them and use them.  If crafting is level based, a level 10 crafter should be making items that are needed/useable/an option for players of that level.  Don't make it that if you are a level 10 crafter, that your items are for level 5 characters.
5. Copy EvE's marketplace. I personally love it, at least for a Science based game.  For something more fantasyish, and this is going to be stretching it, but have a simple market report that players can look at the shows average prices for the region they are in by the previous day, week, month, and year.  That's the only thing I can think about fantasy

There are probably a few more thins I could think of, but, hmmm, it's an idea

Oddly enough the over inflated cost of copper on the AH makes being a newbie easier in a lot of ways. 

1.  I wish I could have got 15G for all that stupid copper I had as a newbie!  (Launch) I didn't see Gold for the longest time!  Then again back then the AH was in only one place and the prices were all over the place as people figured it out.

2.  Anyone who spends ANY time with WOW's crafting system, as mentioned in the original article and the following posts find that actually making most stuff is pretty pointless as a newbie.  So low level players quickly learn that they can just make money on the AH by selling their basic mats while leveling up their collecting abilities.   I've brought enough players into the game in these later years to know that they all learn that soon enough.  Sure you keep enough for lvling up your own abilities but by and large it is those over inflated AH prices that give you a nice income at those low levels.  And that income allows you to level up easier by either buying skills or gear in the AH.  (Which can also be over priced but again gold is easy to come by even for lowbies.)

3.  Yes, comparing real life econ to game econ is simplistic and misses many things.  I never said they were equivalent just that the basic principles SHOULD be attempted, again as in EVE.  True you can control a LOT of stuff about the economy in EVE but forcing price controls isn't what they do.  Supply Side Econ seems to be the law of the land in Eve.  As you mention NPC suppliers with set prices.  NPC buyers with prices too.  Though I did notice that I could often get better prices selling my minerals to players than the NPC's.  The NPC's were a "Floor" as it were, which is fine and a control in it's own right.  But not an outright, oversimplistic and utterly damaging hard price "control."  (I.e. you can not sell that for more than "X") 

4.  Supply and Demand IS in effect, no matter how much you say it's not it is still there.  Even in these simple AH's like in WoW being the "First" to price something has meaning.  As does buying up all the lower price stock to "bid up" the prices.  These are just cut throat business practices.  There are plenty of ways to subtly affect the economy as Eve has shown that would be more effective than the heavy handed price controls you've asked for. 

Gold supply is a HUGE issue in WoW.  Always has been and they've only allowed it to get worse all these years.  Though what do you expect from a game that's not craft based but loot drop based?  It is the point of this article after all to think about.  :)

Yes, a video game economy is MUCh smaller and easier to control than the real one.  But just like the real one consumers react negativly to openly agressive and heavy handed controls.  Much better to tweak from the shadows and build in the controls in subtle ways.  Remember the uproar when they introduced item repair as a money sink?  OMG the chaos that brought about!

In the end I think for a GREAT player economy you have to balance the equations as best you can while keeping it as unobtrusive and "under the hood" from most players as possible.  You also have to think about these things from the word GO and not just tack it on at the end as most games seem to do.  Patching it is like sticking your finger in the dam, it's really not doing much.

Originally posted by XNephalimX

 

Old tale be told? Crafting according to mmo myth was introduced due to players duping items.
 

No, this is completely incorrect.

Crafting in UO was introduced because the entire game was designed around the resource system which my wife and I designed originally for a text mud. The text mud design was a combination of stuff we were inspired by in DartMUD, and things we had done on LegendMUD, her business and economics degree, and an epic crosscountry drive in which we did nothing but paper design for a new mud. We then sent in that paper design material as our design sample to Origin when trying for designer jobs on Ultima Online.

That right there is why UO was crafting-heavy. Crafting most certainly had existed in both text and graphical muds before that of course.

Originally posted by IakXastur

Ok, I've read most of the posts, and what I'm seeing is that people are afraid of high level players strong arming low levels and not allowing them fair competition.  I enjoy crafting, I'm more of a hobbyist.  I've played several games with crafting, SWG as a bio-engineer, bitch of a job to get.  EvE, mainly crafted ammo for self use.  EQ, got into crafting there so I could get the port potion, or whatever it was called, as a beastlord.

Now EvE has a robust trading system. People have been playing that game for years.  Just using their profits, they are able to play for free.  High level resources are primarirly found in 0.0 and below, medium 0.1 to 0.7 (I think), and low anything from 0.8 on, gross simplification.  Certain locations in that game have a fast turn over, low prices, and availability of items, Jita for example (shudders).  The further you go out from hubs, the more expensive items get.  Now you could always go to Jita and get whatever you need for the cheapest possible price, but you would have to travel there, which can and does take hours.  Or you can go to whatever is closer to you, pay a premium price, but get back to doing what you were doing before you went shopping.  Time is money after all.

As a new player in EvE, you can start making money right away, just start mining, and before long, you'll feel like you have a lot of money.  Admittedly, an experienced player in the same place can make significantly more profit than a newbie, especially due to having larger cargo holds.  By not having the primary way of selling being an AH, there is a more controlled economy.  Yes, some things get inflated every time new compenents/ships come out, but it is a good economy.

On the crafting side, it's boring. It is utterly down right boring.  Get resources needed, go to a factory set queue, start, wait and done.  Yes, you can research to make better items, but in the whole scheme of things, it's a boring process.  I could have skills to make significantly harder items than Tier 1 ammo, but my tier 1 ammo will turn out the exact same t1 ammo, that a newbie with minimal training makes, though quicker and with fewer resources.  Now ammo in EvE is something that shouldn't be meddled with, but ship components, I would love to train skills to make, say, an afterburner that increases speed by X, based on, maybe not a minigame, but heck, a roll of a die.

Here would be my semi perfect crafting economy scheme.

1. Resources should be easily available.  Maybe instanced as one poster mention, or maybe just a big, eventually, expendable piles (ie Asteroid belts in EvE).  If the resources are instanced, to help with botting, have randomly spawning mosters.  Maybe it won't stop, altogether, botting, but it will hinder it.
2. Items crafted should be competitive with dropped items.  I'm not saying they have to be better, or even equal, but if you want a Long Sword of Fury +6, you can either buy it, or camp a mob that may drop it and instead get the Long Sword of Fury +6 which decreases attack time by half a second.  Also make it that an item has a slim chance of lasting indefinitely, unless never used.  For a fantasy game that Sword of Fury is getting used alot, you need to repair and you do, it's not going to be as good as it was before, type, it might need repaired a little sooner next time.  Eventually the sword won't be worthwile having and you'll have to replace it, and not just because you got to old for it.
3. Make items be different based on each crafter.  Have skill trees that increase certain stats.  Say one for fire. The crafter that is on the fire tree makes weapons that deal fire damage and armors that defend against fire.  Have each skill level be significantly more expensive than the previous one.  So, someone that focuses solely on fire buffs might make a high level sword have a +200 damage.  And someone that dabbled in fire buffs might only be able to add +30 but since he has other skills, might be able to add +2 to str.  And since each crafter can have their own, semi unique items, players should be willing to buy more items based on situations they are going into.
4. Don't just make armor and weapon making the best crafting class.  Make all crafting neccessary.  That apothecary class, make buffs that last and stack with player buffs, and make them last long enough that you aren't afraid to buy them and use them.  If crafting is level based, a level 10 crafter should be making items that are needed/useable/an option for players of that level.  Don't make it that if you are a level 10 crafter, that your items are for level 5 characters.
5. Copy EvE's marketplace. I personally love it, at least for a Science based game.  For something more fantasyish, and this is going to be stretching it, but have a simple market report that players can look at the shows average prices for the region they are in by the previous day, week, month, and year.  That's the only thing I can think about fantasy

There are probably a few more thins I could think of, but, hmmm, it's an idea

 Yeah I agree crafting in Eve was BORING.  That's why I never did it.  :)

Also the Jita run?  Yeah did it.  One of the jobs I did was "Fed Ex" for my corp and others.  Not a bad gig.  Then again being a Blockade runner was way more exciting than I wanted! :D

So on to your points.

1.  Heck yeah.  Eve asteroid belts are a great "open" yet "instanced" way of making lots of materials available.  It is instanced by being sector based.  It is open because everyone can fly to the same sectors but there are so many of them you can run to other places.  Plus they do have the random spawns to keep you on your toes.  (Many a mining night without proper escort stuck watching my sensors to run away! :) )

2. I think you're going to get a resounding "hell yes" to this one.  To add to it why not let us use your current items as materials for future versions of it?  So as the player and the crafter improves you can get better and better equpiment from them.  On top of your repair idea it also brings a "Crafter/Customer" relationship when you bring back broken or old items for repair or upgrade. :)

3.  Hmm crafter talent trees that actually do stuff?  That'd be nice. :)

4.  Another "Hell yes" answer.  :)

5.   Well there are always NPC merchants who should be able to provide "market reports" as it were.  Say what you will about older societies, but when it came to money they were just as "market focused" then as we were now.  The paperwork from the 1630's shows just how deep they were into markets and money management so it's not a stretch to have a "daily/weekly/monthly" market report for each region.  For "accuracy" sake you could have delayed reporting.  I.e. the further from the source your report was created the more out of date the information is.  Then again with magic and such you could just as easily just make it instant since it could be magically delivered.

I'm sorry but making an article about crafting in mmos.. then not mentioning A Tale in the Desert, which is THE ultimate crafting mmo (as in that's all it is, and its very sophisticated and detailed), pretty much makes you look silly.

Every other mmo's crafting looks like a preschooler's arcade pacman game compared to that :p

Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by XNephalimX

 

Old tale be told? Crafting according to mmo myth was introduced due to players duping items.
 

No, this is completely incorrect.

Crafting in UO was introduced because the entire game was designed around the resource system which my wife and I designed originally for a text mud. The text mud design was a combination of stuff we were inspired by in DartMUD, and things we had done on LegendMUD, her business and economics degree, and an epic crosscountry drive in which we did nothing but paper design for a new mud. We then sent in that paper design material as our design sample to Origin when trying for designer jobs on Ultima Online.

That right there is why UO was crafting-heavy. Crafting most certainly had existed in both text and graphical muds before that of course.

 Raph has spoken!

You missed out on a group of players who craft there Mr. Jennings: The players for whom crafting is the game itself. They enjoy gaining the rewards from crafting, such as crafting experience, the ability to learn new things to craft. They take pride in being able to take raw resources and make bigger and better candy than most other players who craft. I call these players "Crafters."

I play with a few of these people in Fallen Earth, and I used to be one back when I played Everquest II. I don't know how crafting is in that game now, but it sure was fun to gather as many resources you could carry and then just craft stuff. Judging by the number of characters who did nothing but stand at a crafting table next to me, I'd say there were quite a few Crafters in EQII.

So there you have it, FOUR type of players who craft: Merchants, Hobbyists, Quartermasters, and Crafters.

Edit: I also agree 100% with this quote:

"The answer, of course, is that a rich player crafting system is part of what makes a game a virtual world as opposed to a monster murder simulation. Crafting allows players, at its most basic level, to interact with the world and create one something from various shards of nothing; this helps reinforce that the world has various sensible rules that can be followed for their benefit. At its more advanced level, crafting introduces a level of mercantile gameplay that helps enrich the world and its players beyond their pocketbook - it gives new motives for actions, gives new value to in-game objects and allows players to fill new roles."

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Originally posted by Sovrath

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Originally posted by SlineerAs in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from  a crafter, whats the point??
 

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In that other player made thread called "what is your utopian crafting system" one of the posters mentions that boss drops should things that master crafters could use.
I really think that is the way to go. So you kill a boss and get some sort of old legendary sword. The sword is not usable but a master crafter coud salvage its metal, gems, what have you and make something else.
If it was a sci-fi game you could get a piece of advanced alien technology that the crafter could turn into something.
Otherwise, boss drops tend to marginalize crafters. Of course, if crafters were allowed to make items that were "almost" as powerful then that couuld work as well.
But when crafted gear is superseded, and by a large margin, by drops then why would anyone want something crafted?

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That is an amazing way to mix the ideas of running dungeons at an endgame and making high-end gear crafted. This would also diminish problems that many endgame raiding games have with itemization. Of course, that could be diminished by making gear less ridiculously important.

Another gem from my favorite MMORPG columnist.

I believe that Slineer pointed this out on page 1 of the comments, but I would like to confirm that Mortal Online, although it is still in beta, has an extremely deep crafting system. There are numerous possibilities as far as material combinations and component combinations and the stats of a weapon are not viewable, so crafters who want to make the best goods will either need to commit to long hours of experimentation or learn from someone who has. Additionally, 99% of equipable items in the game are not only craftable, but in fact cannot be attained through any other means. Currently, the only equipable items that need not be crafted are arrows, torches, and the gear that you start off with at character creation. Lastly, there is dynamic player housing that exists in real space which provides for the possibility of player-owned shops, each in their own unique location. Shop modules currently exist for player-owned houses, but player-owned vendors have not yet been implimented.  

A good quality & involving crafting system is a foundation part of creating a more "believable" or "worldly" game, though I think that no one system will ever appeal to every player.

If I had any real game development talent I'd try to build a crafting system that had 3 levels of complexity to it, where you would start off with a very basic system & if you wished it could remain that simple & you'd not need to go into anything more complicated, or if you wanted you could open up a more complex ui/set of interactions & gain access to a wider range of variations & customisations of the same items & ultimately a really deep & involving high-level crafting system that allowed you to tweak & influence an even larger set of variables.

Of all the games I played I thought EQ 2's system was the most enjoyable, though I also felt it was too slow-paced, once you know the recipe you should be able to create at least small "batches" in one sitting, depending on the item, VG's system was great too & worth a mention, however I don't think WoW's simple system is without merit at all, WAR's was ...well, just far too limited, though I still found it to be enjoyable to some degree, particularly the growing of seeds for the alchemy

So my ideal crafting for a game would have a three tier backbone system, & the player would have a choice over which level of complexity, or simplicity that they preferred to have.

The thing that "made" eq2 's crafting so good to me was that as a base-level for gear it allowed you to craft gear that you could use at the level you were, even allowing you to build slightly ahead of your levelling curve, & create gear you would use 1 or 2 levels later on, that system really felt more natural to me, WoW's crafting is a little behind the levelling curve most of the time & it hampers that feeling of natural progression, crafting complimenting the wider game was very appealing.

Crafting is, at it's most basic level, another form of grind based gameplay, but having a variety of stuff to do adds a lot of flavour to a game, and gets away from the monster-murderer-simulator of totally combat-based gameplay, I'd love to see more problem-solving, diplomacy, cultural, political even so far as espionage being a part of a "worldly" game, the go here kill stuff or deliver stuff gameplay needs to evolve further to provide a greater variety of interactions & stimulate a more diverse audience, crafting/mercantile is a valid "playstyle" that should be encouraged & supported.

Lineage II gets a bad rep for being a grinder but the bosses could not drop the best weapons / armors in the game. Only rare materials that only Master crafters could use to make an A grade or S grade item. This was even further specialized by only one class the dwarfs being able to craft. Also the fact that you had to level a dwarf in such a grind fest game ment that large servers would only have a handfull of Crafters who could make A grade and S grade stuff.

The 15g Copper-Stack example from WoW is just a result of poor economics on the part of Blizzard. Price-fixing, much like in the real world, would just serve to REALLY mess things up.

The number-one biggest problem with WoW's economy (and many other games) is that you can just kill a mob, and it basically prints money for you. That is the very definition of inlation, an increase in the money supply. And that increase happens every time a mob dies in WoW. And since that's all you do in the game, it's massive. To make things worse, you now have daily repeatable quests that give gold, as well as gold-farmers. You're seeing a massive amount of inflation there.

The nail in that particular coffin comes in the form of their expansions. When a new expansion comes out, they dramatically increase the amount of gold and xp monsters and quests give. The reason is that they don't want you to easily make progress using now-trivial content. They want you to play the new content. So they render the old stuff obsolete by making the new stuff more rewarding.

The other big factor is that if a high-level character wants to pick up a new profession, it has to go through the motions as if he's starting from scratch. So then this means that you have high-level players with higher-level resources competing with fresh characters. So to a new character 20silver for a stack of copper seems decent, but for a high-level, 15g seems fair too. It means they don't have to spend hours grinding that mining skill up.

Combine all of these things, and what you get is 15g a stack of copper!!

If WoW allowed veteran players to bypass the lower levels of the crafting system, and skip all the useless stuff, then they wouldn't need to pay for a stack of copper. If WoW managed its money-supply properly, and didn't allow players to farm gold and essentially print money and create inflation, those high-level people won't need to pay 15g for a stack of silver.

It's just that Blizzard got the basic economics of it very wrong. That's why you're seeing these weird bubbles in their economy. Much like in real-life, the government can't handle economics.

For the "Merchant" class of crafter EVE would be hard to beat.  But I've never been much of a merchant so I barely did any crafting in EVE.  DAoC may have been great for the "Quartermaster" class of crafter but any system which is designed to be intentionally tedious  is a failure from the start.  I suppose I am the "Hobbyist" class of crafter.

My favorite parts of crafting  are :

(1) exploring and harvesting from the environment to find materials

(2) the intellectual challenge of finding the right combination of materials to make the desired product.

The original SWG certainly fit the bill.  Bioengineering was a true science and the most enjoyable thing I've ever done in seven years of mmorpg gaming.  Fallen Earth can satisfy my desire for exploration and harvesting but uses recipies that eliminate any ability to modify the end-product.  Ryzom currently satisfies all of my crafting needs.  As in the original SWG, the resources are hidden and only active prospecting reveals them.  Every crafted item has a unique set of properties that depend on the type and quality of the materials used.  Although it does not cater to the "Merchant" class of crafters Ryzom is great for the "Hobbyist" and "Quartermaster" crafters.

Originally posted by BigJohnny

The 15g Copper-Stack example from WoW is just a result of poor economics on the part of Blizzard. Price-fixing, much like in the real world, would just serve to REALLY mess things up.

The number-one biggest problem with WoW's economy (and many other games) is that you can just kill a mob, and it basically prints money for you. That is the very definition of inlation, an increase in the money supply. And that increase happens every time a mob dies in WoW. And since that's all you do in the game, it's massive. To make things worse, you now have daily repeatable quests that give gold, as well as gold-farmers. You're seeing a massive amount of inflation there.

The nail in that particular coffin comes in the form of their expansions. When a new expansion comes out, they dramatically increase the amount of gold and xp monsters and quests give. The reason is that they don't want you to easily make progress using now-trivial content. They want you to play the new content. So they render the old stuff obsolete by making the new stuff more rewarding.

The other big factor is that if a high-level character wants to pick up a new profession, it has to go through the motions as if he's starting from scratch. So then this means that you have high-level players with higher-level resources competing with fresh characters. So to a new character 20silver for a stack of copper seems decent, but for a high-level, 15g seems fair too. It means they don't have to spend hours grinding that mining skill up.

Combine all of these things, and what you get is 15g a stack of copper!!

If WoW allowed veteran players to bypass the lower levels of the crafting system, and skip all the useless stuff, then they wouldn't need to pay for a stack of copper. If WoW managed its money-supply properly, and didn't allow players to farm gold and essentially print money and create inflation, those high-level people won't need to pay 15g for a stack of silver.

It's just that Blizzard got the basic economics of it very wrong. That's why you're seeing these weird bubbles in their economy. Much like in real-life, the government can't handle economics.

Shortly after starting play in WoW (May '05) I started a thread in the warcraft NG about a fixed money supply (to mitigate the effects you have metioned). Heresy is not well-received by the typical MMO player, apparently.

Vanguard: Saga of heroes has the best crafting. You never mentioned it.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Need more games with crafting systems modeled after UO and early SWG. Good writeup.

 Wrong.

Need games to be in mold of EQ1 where crafting is concerned. Something to supplement the true focus of MMO gaming which is PVE. PVP coming in second, THEN you worry about crafting.

SWG utilized a crafter economy....which pretty much invalidates the PVE game.  Perhaps someone can make it work...I sure dont see it happening. PVE folks adventure to get the gear...not money to re-buy items that anyone can get with enough farming and/or gold selling sites. To ensure a crafter economy, item decay needs to be added for repeat business.

Despite what the vocal minority on these boards would have ya beieve, the world doesnt revolve around them. Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.

Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.

Originally posted by SweetZoid

Vanguard: Saga of heroes has the best crafting. You never mentioned it.

 While I agree it was a good crafting system I still feel it fell short of the one in SWG.

I would definately place Vangaurd crafting in Second place. 

Vanguard had an interesting process but boring resource.  SWG had excellent resource effects with the differing qualities of the resources making the difference to the end product.  Vanguard had a unique process that made the effect on the end product over the types of resources used. 

If you combined those 2 pieces into one system.  You would get a process where gear and tools used as well as the resource stats made the difference on the end result.  What a boon to the crafting community THAT would be!

Fantastic artical, and I wholey agree wit hthe sentiment.

I've always tried my hand at crafting in the various MMOs I've played over the years. The most enjoyable of which were both UO and SWG as mentioned. You are very correct in mentioning that it's more than just crafting, it's the selling of the product. Actually playing out the game as a merchant to market your wares and compete against other merchants to win business on several different levels, rather than it simply being about who can undercut the most.

Most MMOs these days have very shallow crafting mechanics. Those that do have some depth in crafting, lack depth of market, mostly due to global Auctionhouse mechanics that dissolve the market into the single attribute of price mattering.

I sincerely hope that developers take note of this, and realize that there are many players who enjoy this type of system.

Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by XNephalimX

 

Old tale be told? Crafting according to mmo myth was introduced due to players duping items.
 

No, this is completely incorrect.

Crafting in UO was introduced because the entire game was designed around the resource system which my wife and I designed originally for a text mud. The text mud design was a combination of stuff we were inspired by in DartMUD, and things we had done on LegendMUD, her business and economics degree, and an epic crosscountry drive in which we did nothing but paper design for a new mud. We then sent in that paper design material as our design sample to Origin when trying for designer jobs on Ultima Online.

That right there is why UO was crafting-heavy. Crafting most certainly had existed in both text and graphical muds before that of course.

 Raph please come back and make another game. UO and SWG crafting was just a part of why your needed. The games you made knew how to bring players together if it was by crafting or some other element that created a social enviroment that is missed in todays MMO games.

If you not Raph nevermind :P

Ah finally, my favorite major topic in any MMO which is often treated as the annoying step child but now gets a bit attention.

Basically I like to craft because I like to MAKE things - rather than destroy or conquer them. I do that in real life, in spare time, no matter, my hubby called me once "project-mad". Websites, Lego, MMOs, no matter, just creating something and see others have fun with is a big reward for me. And that draws me to crafting.

The best crafting systems in my opinion are atitd for its player skill orientation. Even though it is very time consuming and tool dependent soon. EQ2 because of the huge number of things you can make which doesn't take too long and still makes a profit even without maxing it easily. And Vanguard for the strategy involved in the action point pool based mini game. Plus Free Realms is nice when it comes to cooking, melting etc. which all work with mouse gestures. That is nice! And yes, UO was nice too, especially the parts where it got out of the interface and inside the world like wood chopping. Imagine fighting in an interface window, who would like to do that???

It annoys me to no end why crafting should be tedious per se. Most people as in EQ2 could make huge amounts of money with the level they have and still don't craft because they don't enjoy it. Leveling it is boring like hell. Why is that? Farmville needs no levels, just a bit of dedication here and there and millions of people do it and basically it is a crafting game. Still it is pretty dull and simplified but fun enough. You exchange things all the time with fellow players, they help you "craft" better...

So why isn't someone finally picking crafting up as the major (!) component of a game for fun and attractiveness it can be? and not just the "Oh yes and we have crafting too, just on a side note, but it is tedious by intent of course". That is the most stupid design idea ever. Most people don't like crafting per se and you can always add dumps like pawnbroker or what to get rid of the items. Of course getting the money levelled out is more difficult if (god beware) many player would craft like hell because it is as much fun oriented as combat is. But difficulties are there to overcome by good design and not avoid by making the feature boring.

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

  Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.

Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.

Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SlineerAs in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from  a crafter, whats the point??
 

In that other player made thread called "what is your utopian crafting system" one of the posters mentions that boss drops should things that master crafters could use.

I really think that is the way to go. So you kill a boss and get some sort of old legendary sword. The sword is not usable but a master crafter coud salvage its metal, gems, what have you and make something else.

That was actually introduced into Horizons/Istaria but pretty late, broken/damaged gear you needed a crafter to repair before being able to use it. Seemed to suit all types of players, people liked it.

Originally posted by gonno

The original crafting system in Vanguard was hands down my favorite. Tons of things that only crafters could make. A nice complex system of making slight variations on items. Boats were awesome, tons of crafted housing components and items.  Every crafted item had a tag showing who made it. I havent seen a crafting system even close to it in other games.

But... then the dreaded sony deathtouch appeared and nerfed the heck out of virtually everything in vanguard, including crafting. 

Oh really? They nerfed it? What exactly? Haven't played in ages, too much grind in diplo and "kill 100 x" drove me away too ...

But the crafting was pretty awesome.

First let me say that in no way shape for form did SWG crafting bring on the NGE.  No idea where that brain fart comes from.

IMO, if an MMO does not have player crafted items that are needed by combat toons then I would likely never play that MMO.

Crafting does not destroy or ruin PVE or PVP either, as long as the crafting system is dsigned and implemented accordingly.

SWG, even in it's current form, still has one of the best crafting systems, if not the best.  The only thing that could make it better would be re-introduction of the decay system.  That is what kept player crafted items in constant demand, kept the market open for new crafters, and contained inflation.  NGE removed decay and thus turned many items into everlasting durable goods that crafters charge allot for assuming the will get only one sale.

The only reason more games do not have crafting is point blank the cost associated with it's design, implementation, maintenance and additions.  Some of the best recent additions to SWG, since the NGE, has been the RE system, Weaponsmith changes, and Droid Engineer changes.

The other issue I see here is that combat players complain allot cause they have to get stuff from a crafter and they don't want to pay for it.  In SWG we have the "those greedy crafters" comments on a regular basis.  Unfortunately most of  those comments are coming from players that have never rolled a crafter and never will.  Thus they are totally and utterly clueless as to the effort it takes to make capped primus layered armor in SWG.  In many cases in SWG, being able to make capped crafted items, or near cap, requires as much effort, or more, than that requred for a combat toon to reach max level.

If SWG were to remove crafting, I would cancel all my accounts and move on.  I value the effort put into my crafters as much as my combat toons.  Anyone that made a similar effort would likely feel the same.

MMOs with out crafting are not MMOs, IMHO.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by BigJohnny

The 15g Copper-Stack example from WoW is just a result of poor economics on the part of Blizzard. Price-fixing, much like in the real world, would just serve to REALLY mess things up.

The number-one biggest problem with WoW's economy (and many other games) is that you can just kill a mob, and it basically prints money for you. That is the very definition of inlation, an increase in the money supply. And that increase happens every time a mob dies in WoW. And since that's all you do in the game, it's massive. To make things worse, you now have daily repeatable quests that give gold, as well as gold-farmers. You're seeing a massive amount of inflation there.

The nail in that particular coffin comes in the form of their expansions. When a new expansion comes out, they dramatically increase the amount of gold and xp monsters and quests give. The reason is that they don't want you to easily make progress using now-trivial content. They want you to play the new content. So they render the old stuff obsolete by making the new stuff more rewarding.

The other big factor is that if a high-level character wants to pick up a new profession, it has to go through the motions as if he's starting from scratch. So then this means that you have high-level players with higher-level resources competing with fresh characters. So to a new character 20silver for a stack of copper seems decent, but for a high-level, 15g seems fair too. It means they don't have to spend hours grinding that mining skill up.

Combine all of these things, and what you get is 15g a stack of copper!!

If WoW allowed veteran players to bypass the lower levels of the crafting system, and skip all the useless stuff, then they wouldn't need to pay for a stack of copper. If WoW managed its money-supply properly, and didn't allow players to farm gold and essentially print money and create inflation, those high-level people won't need to pay 15g for a stack of silver.

It's just that Blizzard got the basic economics of it very wrong. That's why you're seeing these weird bubbles in their economy. Much like in real-life, the government can't handle economics.

Shortly after starting play in WoW (May '05) I started a thread in the warcraft NG about a fixed money supply (to mitigate the effects you have metioned). Heresy is not well-received by the typical MMO player, apparently.

A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs. They have a system where money gets destroyed, with things like repair-bills, reagants and whatnot. But unless they can make sure it's at a 1:1 ratio with the money that gets into the economy, you're getting inflation. Even if it is at a close to 1:1 ratio, you still have the money coming in through farmers, which will then create bubbles.

But yeah, can't really expect your average MMO-player to understand this.

granted i started playing swg in its last year before the NGE came and destroyed it

in no time when i played it was every one who enjoyed it a crafter

i was and i loved every thing about there crafting system

but most the people i sold to or interacted with were not  part of the crafting comunity

but every one i talked to or heard from in the game loved it

so please although i admit crafting to me atleast   was one of the greatest parts of swg (and no other game has come  close to getting it right in comparosin)

please dont go claiming it was one of the reasons it died

it was a completly awsome game before they killed it with the NGE

granted you may be talking from pre-cu experince and having never seen the pre-cu i cant say anything about it

Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

  Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.

Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.

Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 Yes indeed Mr Raph

That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.

We are talking about MMORPGs though.

You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.

Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.

Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual  game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off

Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.

Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.

I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)

Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:

These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.

You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy.  You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.

The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack.  I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.

Housing? You littered the game-world with it.  Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.

UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.

Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo.  That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.

What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.

Good day

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

  Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.

Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.

Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 Yes indeed Mr Raph

 

That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.

 

We are talking about MMORPGs though.

 

You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.

 

Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.

 

Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual  game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off

 

Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.

Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.

 

I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)

 

Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:

 

These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.

 

You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy.  You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.

 

The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack.  I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.

 

Housing? You littered the game-world with it.  Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.

 

UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.

 

Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo.  That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.

 

What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.

 

Good day

 

you are wrong wrong wrong emphatically wrong and abysmally so

i just love when people who dont have a bloody clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge  just how popular it was before the nge

the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well  that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
was greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had .
so they made the NGE a huge risk and it bit them in the ass and rightfully so
 

and if you want to claim otherwise think on this

if it didn't have the numbers of people who enjoyed it it wouldent of had the shear amount of irate customers needed to make the disaster that was the NGE hit the news, papers , and etc
it would of just gone ignored

I don't understand why anyone would discuss Wow in a crafting discussion.  Crafting was strictly an after thought in that game, strictly just to say they had it.

Personally either SWG or UO had the best crafting systems.  A good crafter became known in those games.  Eve crafting became flawed when they used a lottery system for many of the advanced items. 

A MMO can't be a quality one with out a decent crafting system, IMO.

Originally posted by ericbelser

 

I also think his categories of crafters missed at least one: craftsman - people who make stuff because they want to make things for people and be known. SWG was a great example of this, there were people who specialized in making "the best" pistols or whatever and derived great pride from being known as "the guy" to buy from.

thats the catagory i fit in

and im rather disappointed he didnt include it

"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge  just how popular it was before the nge

the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well  that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."

 

 Wow Inie....I already gave my background.

How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.

The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.

Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.

Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.

SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.

The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.

If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up.  This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.

We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.

Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.

 Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P

Originally posted by SweetZoid

Vanguard: Saga of heroes has the best crafting. You never mentioned it.

I like FE crafting better because I feel it  produces useful items conistently. Just about everything is useful ...not just to sell..but as gear.  Vanguard is good for one main  aspect...the process itself. It must be carefully calculated and monitored...and I like that you can try techniques that just get the job done...or spend time and take a chance on a better quality result. While you can queue up to 20 items to craft in FE (good imo because some take hours to finish)..Vanguard requires you to be at the ready...and it's fun. Two of my favorite systems for very different reasons.

Originally posted by MIchael-333

Another gem from my favorite MMORPG columnist.

 

I believe that Slineer pointed this out on page 1 of the comments, but I would like to confirm that Mortal Online, although it is still in beta, has an extremely deep crafting system. There are numerous possibilities as far as material combinations and component combinations and the stats of a weapon are not viewable, so crafters who want to make the best goods will either need to commit to long hours of experimentation or learn from someone who has. Additionally, 99% of equipable items in the game are not only craftable, but in fact cannot be attained through any other means. Currently, the only equipable items that need not be crafted are arrows, torches, and the gear that you start off with at character creation. Lastly, there is dynamic player housing that exists in real space which provides for the possibility of player-owned shops, each in their own unique location. Shop modules currently exist for player-owned houses, but player-owned vendors have not yet been implimented.  

would of loved to try this game but i despise open pvp games

i heard they had a good crafting system though

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge  just how popular it was before the nge

the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well  that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Wow Inie....I already gave my background.

 

How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.

The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.

 

Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.

Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.

SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.

The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.

If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up.  This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.

We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.

Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.

 

 

 Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P

 

 

 

 

i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering

a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv

a bachelors in human psychology

and a bachelors in computer sciences

not to mention Microsoft certification

and a few more in animal care

and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
 and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty

my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear

being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing

and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P  (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )

and no i dont have much of a social life :P

and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game  when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
 but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are

that being said  i do agree swg could of done well with more content    god knows it needed more content

i do not argue that point

i do argue  the idea  that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like 

when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system

it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content

even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class

and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day

o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else 

the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had

and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had

even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon  as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had

Originally posted by inle

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge  just how popular it was before the nge

the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well  that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Wow Inie....I already gave my background.

 

How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.

The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.

 

Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.

Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.

SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.

The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.

If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up.  This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.

We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.

Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.

 

 

 Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P

 

 

 

 

i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering

a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv

a bachelors in human psychology

and a bachelors in computer sciences

not to mention Microsoft certification

and a few more in animal care

and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
 and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty

my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear

being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing

and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P  (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )

and no i dont have much of a social life :P

and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game  when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
 but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are

 

 

that being said  i do agree swg could of done well with more content    god knows it needed more content

i do not argue that point

i do argue  the idea  that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like 

when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system

it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content

even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class

and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day

o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else 

the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had

and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had

even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon  as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had

 Maybe not....but considering I did make a living out of fixing things that were wrong,  perhaps I have a bit of insight having gamed since the 70s.

Then again maybe the majority of MMO players back then could see the things I refer to. I told ya...read this very site if you doubt it.. A few liked it....most hated it. Do I need to link it?

Here...start on this page and work your way back....

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/803/page/236

I dont know what you are on, but SWG NEVER held the MMO title. Maybe in your fantasy it did. I dont know where you went to school, but 300k isnt a greater number than 450k. 300k is what SWG held at launch....and went downhill from there. EQ held high sub numbers until the launch of WoW. And at no time did a NA MMO surpass it until the launch of WoW.

Anybody with the slightest mathmatical apptitude would realize it is easier to design/balance content for a few classes vs the 32 "iconic" proffesions had at launch.

Anyways enough of the tangent....as stated prior...I believe EQ1 had tradeskills right. Something that adds to the game...not something to center a game around.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by inle

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge  just how popular it was before the nge

the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well  that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Wow Inie....I already gave my background.

 

How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.

The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.

 

Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.

Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.

SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.

The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.

If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up.  This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.

We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.

Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.

 

 

 Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P

 

 

 

 

i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering

a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv

a bachelors in human psychology

and a bachelors in computer sciences

not to mention Microsoft certification

and a few more in animal care

and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
 and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty

my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear

being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing

and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P  (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )

and no i dont have much of a social life :P

and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game  when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
 but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are

 

 

that being said  i do agree swg could of done well with more content    god knows it needed more content

i do not argue that point

i do argue  the idea  that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like 

when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system

it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content

even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class

and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day

o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else 

the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had

and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had

even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon  as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had

 Maybe not....but considering I did make a living out of fixing things that were wrong,  perhaps I have a bit of insight having gamed since the 70s.

 

Then again maybe the majority of MMO players back then could see the things I refer to. I told ya...read this very site if you doubt it.. A few liked it....most hated it. Do I need to link it?

 

Here...start on this page and work your way back....

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/803/page/236

 

I dont know what you are on, but SWG NEVER held the MMO title. Maybe in your fantasy it did. I dont know where you went to school, but 300k isnt a greater number than 450k. 300k is what SWG held at launch....and went downhill from there. EQ held high sub numbers until the launch of WoW. And at no time did a NA MMO surpass it until the launch of WoW.

 

Anybody with the slightest mathmatical apptitude would realize it is easier to design/balance content for a few classes vs the 32 "iconic" proffesions had at launch.

 

Anyways enough of the tangent....as stated prior...I believe EQ1 had tradeskills right. Something that adds to the game...not something to center a game around.

never held the title mmo O.o what drugs are you on and can i have some

get off your high horse and do some real god damn research  before someone pushes you off it after all the fall might hurt




it did at one point out do EQ in population

oooo playing since the 70s what an achievement   since any one hear over 35 has probably bean playing something or other that long

granted i started around 83

and guess what buddy boy your not the only one hear who has worked in the gaming industry

now go shove off
 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxies for a more accurate look at sub numbers

and i joind in 2005 when according to this it was at its prime

and the NGE hit and killed it about 6-8 months later

any ways this ends hear .  i will not dignify it with further argument as your obviously not worth my time

so i will be the more mature person and drop it hear.  dont expect me to respond to what ever inane excuse for a response you decide to give this one

as for the 35 skill classes we will have to agree to disagree because i dont wish to take this any further.

raph koster is a genius when it comes to mmo design and i will not suffer your ignorance on this mater any further

Inie....you are such a troll...I already gave ya the links to feedback.

Lets go the MMO numbers...what ya say?

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/274204/And-this-is-why-you-dont-make-mmos-for-wow-players.html

This off the main discussion page as it is a current thread. I forget the name of the other site that used to track subs as well. Until WoW launched, EQ ruled the MMO world in NA. Which is shown here, and on the other site I mentioned(MMOdata.com or something to that effect).

SOE NEVER....I repeat NEVER referred to SWG as the number one subbed MMO during those yrs. It might....repeat might have lauded it over boxes sold....but SWG never held the sub title during that timeframe. The retention rate during the first month was dismal.

It sold a ton of boxes....but the majority didnt sign up for first month subs.

Now go away little troll fan-boi. Sorry to burst your wittle bubble with facts.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by Moaky07

 

  Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.

Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.

Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 Yes indeed Mr Raph

 

That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.

 

We are talking about MMORPGs though.

 

You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.

 

Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.

 

Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual  game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off

 

Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.

Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.

 

I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)

 

Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:

 

These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.

 

You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy.  You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.

 

The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack.  I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.

 

Housing? You littered the game-world with it.  Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.

 

UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.

 

Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo.  That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.

 

What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.

 

Good day

 

 Thank god you don't make MMO's based on  your opinion of SWG. Anyway crafting in games today for the most part just seem to be a after thought. I also notice the last few years these games that pretty much ignore crafting have failed in the north america market. It's time for MMO's to give us a complete game with combat and crafting getting equal content.

I don't know the numbers of Fallen Earth but they get good ratings here and their game has deep crafting. Maybe there is hope yet. :)

Originally posted by BigJohnny

A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs.

QFT! I mean, just look at all of those MMOs that failed utterly without making any profit at all because they left out the "absolutely crucial" element of a static money supply: UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, RO, EVE, SWG, FFXI, COH/COV, L2, EQ2, WOW, GW, DDO, WAR... every one of 'em! I mean, I could go on for hours.

You would think that with a static money supply being so absolutely crucial that at some point the developer of a major MMO would think to put it in. What a bunch of dum-dums!

I would love to see a mmorpg with an indepth and meaningful crafting game. I think it's something completely overlooked.

Horizons had a huge crafting game. Not just weapons and armor, but you had to build your own housing, silos, woodshops, blacksmith shops, guild houses, fences,dragon lairs...even your own trees where made through transmuted materials. The only problem was the lack of players...and a massive grind to collect materials.

Vanguard has some good ideas too. They streamlined some of Horizon's ideas and tried to make crafting into it's own mini game which would determine whether you successfully crafted said item and of what quality it was. Big proble was all the bugs associated with it and Vanguard in general.

I'm playing WoW atm and it's crafting sucks.

I would LIKE to see a mmorpg where recipe's could be created by the players. Just put the " ingrediants' in the world and let the players design and create their own crafted gear/materials. This would truely allow for the master crafter.

For example

Zombies would drop occasional Zombie fingers which are known to give +5 health. An alchemist could add this to a potion of health or a blacksmith could add this to a piece of armor or weapon to buff it up a  bit....combine this with the ability to make cosmetic changes depending on skill and we have can truely have a master crafter game.

or.....Perhaps a cook could create Zombie finger on a stick and give a player a +5 boost in health for awhile. First player to think of it can write it down and " own" the recipe...and thus sell the recipe if they want or be known as the only player who can make said Zonbie finger on a stick.

That kind of thing...

Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by XNephalimX

 

Old tale be told? Crafting according to mmo myth was introduced due to players duping items.
 

No, this is completely incorrect.

Crafting in UO was introduced because the entire game was designed around the resource system which my wife and I designed originally for a text mud. The text mud design was a combination of stuff we were inspired by in DartMUD, and things we had done on LegendMUD, her business and economics degree, and an epic crosscountry drive in which we did nothing but paper design for a new mud. We then sent in that paper design material as our design sample to Origin when trying for designer jobs on Ultima Online.

That right there is why UO was crafting-heavy. Crafting most certainly had existed in both text and graphical muds before that of course.

And i thank you for that. Crafting in UO was one of the main reasons why i started with MMOs back in 1997.

btw, anyone pls know any other mmorpg which has crafting similar to the VG or EQ2?

Sorry if this has been mentioned (this thread is crazy long), but what about Puzzle Pirates. I really think they got it right. 

Maps - Buy common ones in Shipyards or get uncommons through PVP or PVE. Maps can lead you to islands that you can forage for crafting materials.

Foraging - You play a puzzle and the better you do, the better stuff you find.

PVE/PVP - Harder ships have gold as well as rarer crafting supplies.

Market - Some islands produce different supplies and you can place buy orders.  Stock up while the price is low and sell high to players or another island's market.

Crafting - All the crafts use something that is either player made (like cloth, dyes, etc) or foraged. Players play a puzzle and depending on how well they do, they can create differnt levels of items.

Shoppes - Players can own standalone shoppes (rare) or stalls inside bigger shoppes. So anyone can run there own business.  They can hire out other players to play the puzzle

Items - If I'm not mistaken, everything is player created. Most craft rely on other crafts for supplies.

I haven't played in soooo long though. But I think this is a one of the best crafting models and just one side of the game.  There's palour games, tournaments, sailing (PVP/PVE) and maybe even more that I can't recall. But, then again, this isn't your average MMO, either.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by BigJohnny

A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs.

QFT! I mean, just look at all of those MMOs that failed utterly without making any profit at all because they left out the "absolutely crucial" element of a static money supply: UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, RO, EVE, SWG, FFXI, COH/COV, L2, EQ2, WOW, GW, DDO, WAR... every one of 'em! I mean, I could go on for hours.

You would think that with a static money supply being so absolutely crucial that at some point the developer of a major MMO would think to put it in. What a bunch of dum-dums!

Good troll. I'll give you that.

But no, this is a discussion about an economy and crafting in an MMO. Static money supply is crucial for those things to work properly, but of course a game can be successful without it. Way to take it out of context! I'd toast a troll-beer in your honor if I had some.

How many of those successful games you listed had an incredible economy and crafting that revolutionized the genre? None. That's right.

The particular example I gave was about WoW's economy, which obviously has major problems. Specifically, people were complaining about 15g a stack of copper. Which is directly related to the money-supply. But that has already been explained.

I wasn't talking at all on whether or not a game can be successful financially without it. Only that it's crucial for a healthy economy, which is crucial for good crafting.

As I look at my stack of "failed" MMO game boxes (WAR, AoC, Aion), I feel lucky to have gotten into A Tale in the Desert (http://www.atitd.com).  ATITD is the best MMO crafting game because it is about crafting.  Its also about puzzles and politics, but those aspects of the game are a whole other subject.  ATITD's crafting is so crafting-centered that making some tools, the best tools in the game, means you actually have to craft them.  I mean, just look at this guide to making carpentry blades: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale3/Guilds/The_Lollipop_Guild/CarpGuide.  The best blacksmith in the game is so respected, that he is a legend even to this day, although he doesn't currently play (ask about Zomboe). 

ATITD also has the most advanced economy of any MMO I've played. There are no merchants that create an immaginary, static baseline for what things are worth.  That's right, the economy is purely supply and demand.  Also, there is no currency in the game, only bartering.  This makes pricing itself challenging, a "mini-game" in and of itself.  Bartering also creates different types of wealth, not just the single focal point of collecting as much gold as possible.  This game has capaitalists, and it has people that give away things for free out of the goodness of their heart.  Additionally, there is no magical auction house or even a trade market, so trade can be different in each region.   Do you pay 1:1.5 charcoal to wood to a guy that lives two regions away, or your neighbor that charges a little more?

Of course, ATITD isn't for everyone, just like hardcore crafting isn't for everyone.  ATITD doesn't have flashy graphics, and there isn't any monotonous monster-slaying.  It requires a lot of time and patience to get good at, but once you are hooked you can really start to appreciate a game that does crafting and economics in an actually interesting and deep way.  It is too bad that more traditional MMO's can't include this type of crafting somehow. 

I really like the idea of finding maps that lead to resources, you could use that in any MMO.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Need more games with crafting systems modeled after UO and early SWG. Good writeup.

 Wrong.

 

Need games to be in mold of EQ1 where crafting is concerned. Something to supplement the true focus of MMO gaming which is PVE. PVP coming in second, THEN you worry about crafting.

 

SWG utilized a crafter economy....which pretty much invalidates the PVE game.  Perhaps someone can make it work...I sure dont see it happening. PVE folks adventure to get the gear...not money to re-buy items that anyone can get with enough farming and/or gold selling sites. To ensure a crafter economy, item decay needs to be added for repeat business.

 

Despite what the vocal minority on these boards would have ya beieve, the world doesnt revolve around them. Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.

Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.

Dear god...I thought you went to the offical TOR forums and weren't coming back? That's what you said, anyway.

Anyway, the success of crafting in MMOs, plus the overwhelming accolades of the SWG crafting system not only on this site but the overwhelming majority of MMO gaming sites speaks for itself. It's absolutly fine if you don't like it but your opinion in this case is far from the absolute fact.

But, every action has it's own silver lining. If TOR loses you because it's getting too "Uncle Owen" with the latest dev blog it'll pick up me. And honestly, those are the only two people that you and I can 100% speak for with 100% accuracy. And I get to return to a SW universe in MMO form. I'm certainly happy.

And on that note, factoring in our last conversations before your hiatus, I really think we've exhausted everything there is to say to each other.

Scott makes a big deal about auction houses, but honestly he's only looking at them from the side of the crafters, they are great for the consumer (I've played games where you had to fly / run to a player store in the middle of freaking nowhere) since they can get what they want when they want.



They are also great for the big clearing house crafters, myself during my last months in WoW totally dominated my faction / servers market on vellum to the point where no-one bothered competing with me as I had my profit and loss planned out to such a degree (based on weekly sales) that I could afford to drop 2k worth of gold buying out the competition.



So yea, they suck for the little guy, but are awesome for the big guy and the customers, like so much else in life. Everywhere in the news you hear about how big chain stores are horrible for the little mum and pop stores, but what they fail to mention is that customers buy there because they're budgets can suffer it better, it's a harsh truth, but a truth.



 

Jennings is talking losely about one of the topics that players are most interested in.

Having a fun crafting system is good, but the key is the following and it's so simple you could cry:

Crafter is a class of it's own. You can't be BOTH a awesome ninja warrior AND a crafter, you gotta choose.

Do this, and a heaven of blessings rain down on not just the crafters, but everyone and everything in the game.

You get this piece of insight for free. Now go make a great game.

I can't play a MMO seriously if it doesn't have a strong crafting system, I enjoy it more than PvE and PvP.

Wish a crafting system would be made where crafted was equally good and would complement drops (DAoC), with a manufacturing system that's fun and forces you to be active in your craft so you don't afk macro (EQ2/Vanguard), and that you had an option for resource gathering, you could either buy it all from NPC's (money sink way DAoC) or harvesting in the field but with an in-game radar and fast respawn (Lotro).

oh I miss the SWG crafting, so many variables on each item.

Originally posted by shinkan

oh I miss the SWG crafting, so many variables on each item.

thats one of the big things i miss most of swg's crafting system

the way the work you put into it actualy made a difference  in how good the stuff you made comes out

that if you were willing to put in the time and go to the middle of no ware in search of that rare matt on spawn it actuly paid off

I was surprised that Vanguard wasn't mentioned as well. Vanguard had a great crafting system. When there was a really good population back in the early days, you could make a good profit crafting. And then they changed all or most items to be Bind on equip.

I can't really blame them for doing this because it was most of the crafter's fault anyway. They complained about how they sold their crafted items for a certain price, and people who used it and out leveled it, sold the crafted stuff for a much higher price to other people and made a good profit. Also the change of how everyone can deconstruct items they gotten from monsters was a big blow to crafters. Because crafters were the only ones that was supposed to be able to deconstruct stuff. It totally destroyed the economy.

But Vanguard's crafting IMO was very well implemented. It made me feel like I had some worth in the game. Being able to go around inspecting people's stuff and seeing their stuff with my name inscribed on it made me feel proud to supply it to the world.

Originally posted by dantheman13

As I look at my stack of "failed" MMO game boxes (WAR, AoC, Aion), I feel lucky to have gotten into A Tale in the Desert (http://www.atitd.com).  ATITD is the best MMO crafting game because it is about crafting.  Its also about puzzles and politics, but those aspects of the game are a whole other subject.  ATITD's crafting is so crafting-centered that making some tools, the best tools in the game, means you actually have to craft them.  I mean, just look at this guide to making carpentry blades: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale3/Guilds/The_Lollipop_Guild/CarpGuide.  The best blacksmith in the game is so respected, that he is a legend even to this day, although he doesn't currently play (ask about Zomboe). 

I agree to that for the biggest part. It is awesome to actually have to spent brain, time and tools to actually shape something. Blacksmithing I enjoyed a lot, gem cutting is great - even if it can be frustrating if you grind too much from one side or wrong angle or suddenly reach an impurity of the structure and there is a hole in the crystal or such. Onion growing, all the stuff about flax growing, seed mutants and pollution caused by it - I loved the complexity.

But ... here comes my major gripe with atitd into account: if you spent as much time to make something, put in such effort to understand the subtleties of the mechanics to become good and then the whole thing is regularly wiped again and again ... That basically makes the whole "economy" system a failure. If a game is only considered "fun" or viable by the devs once they wipe the world after people rebuilt everything and with insane effort and dedication often for 2 years or more that means the whole system is flawed. Something that sustains itself and keeps people playing wouldn't need to be erased. It would allow people to make it their own instead in a special new way run the grind hamster wheel as in every other game. Just more complicated and once you might have made it to the top your "main char" and all its achievements are deleted and you have to start a "twink". Or not even say "ok, you are allowed to do it at your own pace, but once you hit the final level your main char is wiped" and instead say "ok, we watch the majority, sorry if you started too late or are too slow but if those have reached xyz we wipe your stuff as well". I can't say how patronized I feel by that plus the loss of all my work ...

For me the most attractive crafting system is one that 

a) allows me to have fun while I do it - so it is not repetetive or I can pick many different things to do that all help me gain reward (not just different named things but the same mechanic)

b) reward for me means I built something me or especially others can and WILL use (buildings, items, food whatever), thus are interested to buy and I can see them use it or have at least direct contact with them (not just an auction house or npc-tasks-that-destroy-a-useless-item)

c) makes me independent enough from other players time wise that I can as casual player do my piece or get my ressource or whatever without needing to WAIT for someone to come online or built me something. Or as in SWG where I would have died to be a breeder but needed a huge guilt that buys/builts me one or I just can't do that type of "crafting". It was tedious enough to collect all the enzymes and whatever to do breeding but noooo, the entry treshhold needed to be even higher. 

d) I won't need to have to wait days and weeks to reach the next step of crafting while sitting around and wondering what to do if I won't pay a fee or such (travian/evony or any of thos anyone?)

e) items are customizable if i put a certain skill (not time or money!) in but that by a intuitive (!) GUI and not some kind of programming language or such and then maybe even figuring out it is buggy  (Second Life or Metaplace)

f) I can interact with things IN the world and not a dull GUI window. That is stone age and only a bit above MUDs, having my char do an appropriate animation while I have my concentration on the GUI window is STIL not immersive and nobody in PvE or PvP would ever accept it - yet in crafting it is pretty much standard, unbelievable

g) does not need tremendous ressources to collect by watching my char swipe/swing/hit/grind/whatever and waiting you can start the next swipe/grind/swing/hit/whatever ... Horizons anyone? If I need to spend hours upon hours collecting ressources, just a little bit makes me totally overload, drag to some workbench, get it refined, drag back, spend hours ... just hitting a button, watching the bar go, sitting and waiting ... ?!? Are you kidding me?!? And no, having the ressources that are so annoying to collect surrounded by mobs so one runs around scared is not making RESSOURCE COLLECTION more entertaining, just more tedious and if you truly believe ANY adventurer would have fun standing guard for hours for a ressource collector "acting" mercenary then you are NUTS.)

Vanguard's diplomacy system was a step in the right direction.

There are so many fun puzzle games that people will play again and again (tetris, puyo puyo, puzzle fighter, etc) that I am just amazed none of them has been modified to get a crafting mini-game.  It would be so easy, and relieve much of the tedium traditionally associated with crafting.

Originally posted by nennafir

Vanguard's diplomacy system was a step in the right direction.

There are so many fun puzzle games that people will play again and again (tetris, puyo puyo, puzzle fighter, etc) that I am just amazed none of them has been modified to get a crafting mini-game.  It would be so easy, and relieve much of the tedium traditionally associated with crafting.

 try puzzle pirates :)

i have to agree that vanguard diplomacy is a work of genius - not only diplomacy game itself is fun, but all is incredibly working together - getting "pieces of information" as a rewards, completting preprepared dialogues by winning the game, different types of actions allowed in different types of dialogues (like no demand in entertainment diplomacy) etc etc

Originally posted by Benedikt

btw, anyone pls know any other mmorpg which has crafting similar to the VG or EQ2?

I don't know anything about VGs crafting but I do know about EQII's. When I stopped playing EQII  about 3 months ago I went to LotRO and TBH, I enjoyed LotRO crafting a bit more.

It's not just a grind to highest level and then the quests come. There are quests all thoughout your crafting "career". To advance to the next tier you have to do a quest. You have to master the previous tier before you can master the following tier. And there are no levels, it's all skill. And no button mashing throughout the crafting. You can also craft enmass but that does take time to do and that's where you get the "set it and go" crafting. You have to refine your materials but it's not overly involved like what I heard EQII's early day crafting was.

The article did forget that facet of crafter, like myself, who actually enjoys crafting an do it not to make money but to be self sufficient and capable of making stuff for their own characters and their friends. I'm also a recipe completist. I HAVE to have every recipe that is possible to obtain for a crafting class just because I need the full set. :P Easy to do in EQII, a challenge in LotRO which makes my mentality of crafting more rewarding when I do manage to get all of the recipes. hehe

Originally posted by Snowdonia

Originally posted by Benedikt

btw, anyone pls know any other mmorpg which has crafting similar to the VG or EQ2?

I don't know anything about VGs crafting but I do know about EQII's. When I stopped playing EQII  about 3 months ago I went to LotRO and TBH, I enjoyed LotRO crafting a bit more.

It's not just a grind to highest level and then the quests come. There are quests all thoughout your crafting "career". To advance to the next tier you have to do a quest. You have to master the previous tier before you can master the following tier. And there are no levels, it's all skill. And no button mashing throughout the crafting. You can also craft enmass but that does take time to do and that's where you get the "set it and go" crafting. You have to refine your materials but it's not overly involved like what I heard EQII's early day crafting was.

I do have maxed crafts in lotro and consider vg and eq2 crafting far better.

when i was talking about crafting similar to vg or eq2, i ment crafting process itself - in both these games is crafting done by minigames (well i didnt play eq2 for a long time, but it was so when i played it (closed beta till cca 2 months after launch)), with main difference between vg and eq2 being fact, ze eq2 crafting is (was) real time, while vg is turn based.

I don't think button mashing to make sure your blue bar stays in the "pristine" line while increasing your green line can be considered a "minigame" tbh.

When I think of "minigame" crafting, I think of Free Realms. Now THAT is truly minigame crafting. If VG does it that way then that's where you'd wanna go. It's aimed at kids but all ages play it (from very young ages to old fogeys on a pension :P)  and you don't make any profit from it (in fact, you will most definitely LOSE money and prolly loads of it) but all of the Blacksmith and Chef recipes as well as the node harvesting are all minigame. Heck, the entire game is nothing but minigames inside a game. You can also win "prizes" if certain goals are met throughout the minigames; or at least, you use to before they revamped the minigame reward system.

I have to admit, I DO like that kind of crafting as well but unlike FR, I would like for it to be more than jjust a means to an end with a chance at a sparkly toy when I finish. I'd want it to be worth my time and people would actually use what I can make. FR crafting had little in the way of returns with the exception that some of the food you could make as a Chef had nice effects but the rest were pretty crappy.

If you haven't played EQII since release, from what I have heard, crafting now is NOTHING like it use to be. There are no more subcombines for one. And as I said before, it's all about mashing 3 buttons throughout the crafting process to increase one bar while keeping the other bar from dropping too low. No craft class depends on any other any longer. An Armorer doesn't need a Jeweler or Alchemist or anything in order to make armor for example (no idea what classes were dependent on what other classes back before the crafting revamp).

Originally posted by shinkan

oh I miss the SWG crafting, so many variables on each item.

Me too bro. Me too....

Putting "mini-games" into a crafting system is not something I'd be interested in. If a game is going to do that, then put them into the combat system as well and make a theme of it. But just as many enjoy the tedium of pressing hotkeys to destroy pixels there are many who prefer the standard way of pressing keys to create them. No tetris, mahzong, or crossword puzzels needed.

shadowdonia:

VG crafting "minigame" is based on this: you do have certain number of points you can spend on actions and your goal is to get progress to 100% with as high quality as possible (from D (worst) to A (best)). Those points you can spend on actions which increase progress and quality by different amount (some e.g. increase one by big amount while decrease other by small one), to counter bad events or e.g. to change tools when you need some nonstandart tool for counter action.

The catch is, that bad events often costs you a lot of unexpected points (e.g. actions which decrease progress or increase overall action cost), so your planned advancement of progress and quality is suddenly destroyed :)

in a time in which 90% of the new released mmorpgs aren't very creative and only duplicates of an older game a good new crafting concept can be the diffrence. at least i wish to have a mmorpg in which i will not find a fully 75 lb plate armor in the loot window of a fluffy small 5 lb rabbit.