Developer Perspectives: “The Customer” Is Not Always Right
In this week's column, Sanya Weathers addresses issues raised in a colleague's column earlier in the week, stating that both "the customer" and "the developer" are misnomers.
Column By Sanya Weathers on September 11, 2009
"The Customer" is not always right, and neither is "The Developer."
The reason for this is simple. There's no such thing as "the customer" or "the developer" in the MMO world.
Speaking of an MMO customer as a single entity is madness. Even a small MMO has tens of thousands of customers. The only thing they are all certain to have in common is that they need to breathe air. The age span will run from toddler to senior citizen. The intelligence level will vary from illiterate cretin to Asperger-iffic engineer. There are a few incredibly good looking people, and there are a few, er, Morlocks.
Most players are right in the middle of every possible bell curve. In fact, the divergence amongst the typical MMO playerbase is mostly found in their opinions about the game. If you've got ten thousand customers, and you ask them all for their opinions, you will have ten thousand different ideas on what the game really needs. There will be broad areas of agreement, of course, but everyone will have their own spin based on their wildly divergent play styles, the amount of time they prefer to spend on gaming, their class, their preferred visual style, how well they read, to what degree they prefer immersion, how fast they type, how much time they spend on consoles, their reflexes, their personalities, their past experiences with MMOs, and their socioeconomic niche. Probably their marital status, too.
And the nature of MMOs is that a benefit to one group either has no effect on another group, or does harm to that other group. It is simply not possible for all individual customers to be equally right.
Determining which customers are right would be easier if there was such a thing as "the developer." But there isn't. The developers are a microcosm of their player base, with the simple act of being developers making the differences more pronounced. A developer who comes from a console background is not used to the kinds of exploits a PC developer assumes a player will attempt. (Hint: No combination of keystrokes is too esoteric for a player to miss. If putting on the capslock and the numlock and typing &TffWZ while holding down the left arrow key will unlock a secret level, there will be guides to the secret level on eBay three days after launch.) Someone who was hired initially as a customer service agent will have one set of assumptions about players, whereas someone who was hired as a programmer will have another. These assumptions deeply color feedback interpretation.
You can't convince most players of this, of course. Most players are positive "developers" are a monolithic entity that marches in lockstep, a juggernaut of nerf that heeds not our cries. That's because a patch note has such a feeling of finality when it comes out. A mere patch note can't convey the shouting, the desk thumping, or the violent whiteboard scribbling. And no decent community manager is ever going to say, "Look, there were an equal number of us for this change as there were against it, and the producer was in the group that was for it." And no one in their right mind is going to say, "it was a tie and the producer flipped a coin."
Go ahead, imagine the most insane thing ever written in a patch note, and think about the fact that it's possible the only thing certain about it was that the old status quo was unacceptable. Good times!
Fortunately, it's not usually that way. Usually, the best thing for the game can be determined by someone with a big picture view.
However, the big picture view is not held by someone who is advocating for a particular class, a particular play style, or someone experiencing the game from a particular level. That rules out a huge chunk of the playerbase. The most cursory reading of an MMO-related message board will prove this to anyone with basic reading skills. As a former manager of mine used to say, "Who wants to be more powerful? Raise your hands. My god, it's UNANIMOUS."
But I'm not saying that developers automatically have that big picture view. Oh, lordy, am I ever not saying that. As I said before, a development team is basically a playerbase reduced to basic archetypes. That's why a dev team is usually led by someone with enough experience and cynicism to get above personal concerns, and why feedback is so crucial. And as I've said in previous columns, feedback comes in multiple forms. It comes via game data (how people actually use a product), it comes via polls or surveys (developer initiated feedback), and it comes via emails and message boards (user-initiated feedback).
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Most players are positive "developers" are a monolithic entity that marches in lockstep, a juggernaut of nerf that heeds not our cries.
I lol'd.
Conversely, I'll wager that most developers are positive that players are a seething mass of exploiters, bound and determined to escape the box they're being shoved into by the design.
Hell has frozen over, I completly agree with Sanya on this topic which is also shown by my response to The Customer is Always Right article.
I think the majority of players have no idea the complexity that goes into an MMO design and changes. If you read official game boards everything is "It's easy just do this, should only take 5 minutes too." Those statements show such a lack of understanding it is insane. And those same people spit out later that day "The devs don't respond to me" or "The devs don't listen and make easy changes."
As I said in reponse to the other article, are the devs free of blame? Absolutly not, they do make mistakes and they do miss major issues that need to be fixed. But on the grand scheme of things they tend to do a solid job, and often times those major problems that need to be fixed have to be carefully done so in order to prevent many more major issues from popping up.
But the modern MMO player/forum poster tends to be a person who feels they know absolutly everything and they should be listened to and any changes they suggest made. It is ridiculous
Two of my favorite games were destroyed because devs decided to go their own merry way. Despite tons of hollering, crying, whining, and bitching from their subsribers. Those two are EQ and DAoC.
EQ used to be a nice little grouping game. Then some idiot dev had a brainfart to totally change the game to a raid centric nightmare. Locking out players from content, creating a raider vs. grouper division, and worst of all balancing the group game based on raid gear instead of group gear.
DAoC. Oh, DAoC, once the best game ever to grace the earth. Full of grouping, little to no raids. Not gear dependent. Vibrant economy. Awesome RvR. It had it all. Then, out of nowhere we are hit by this thing called Trials of Atlantis. I mean, wtf was that? This thing was a nightmare. Those of us who left EQ, because of the raids were once again being forced to raid. Not only that, but every encounter seemed to be broken. It took DAoC years, and tens of thousands of subscribers before they finally figured out "the customer is always right".
So, you can say all you want that "The Customer" is not always right(of course, we aren't talking individuals here), but history of MMOs that have gone from riches to rags proves otherwise.
I think I've found my favorite game columnist!
She's pretty much the only one on this site's staff with the ability to write, so yeah, welcome to the fan club.
The customer is always right. Thats why the customer gets what they pay for. If you ask 1 million people a question. You will get 1 million answers. But there is an average of the same answers. People have somehow fallen into the hype machine and don't know how to get out of it. Foaming at the mouth of every MMO release just because it's something new and looks exciting! Not once attempting to look up information on who's making this crap who owns this company what people are on the dev team and who's funding this game? I didn't play all these games for the hell of it, I played them because I'm looking for something to immerse myself in for a little while. I havn't bought a MMO in over a year because none of these p2p's are even worth it and are an insult. The people that run the show at making games are absolutly fucking DRY. NO IDEAS, NO INNOVATION, NO HEART. They have lost something somewhere down the road and aren't even using the biggest source of ideas. Us.
They just aren't given the chance to do something different, because it's risky.
The player's aren't very good source of ideas. We don't know what we want. The developer should develop something we want to play, not what we think we want to play.
They just aren't given the chance to do something different, because it's risky.
The player's aren't very good source of ideas. We don't know what we want. The developer should develop something we want to play, not what we think we want to play.
Of course its risky. You going to spend millions of dollars on an idea that might not work. Kinda sounds like a lot of shit produced today no? You make it sound as if we were actually asked what we wanted to play we would fumble around like ass hats and idiots drooling over oatmeal cookies. We know exactly what we want most of us aren't complete morons.
No, we would say "moar classes and races plz, and moar instances that are.. bigger and better".
Before trying out new things we don't know what would be 'best' for us. We say now that instant gratification is The way to reward players in MMO, but that is simply because they haven't tried a game where you actually have to work for your rewards. Some might like it more than what most MMO's offer these days, but without trying... they'll never find out.
It's the dev's duty to create opportunities like this for us to try out. But this isn't possible if they just let us do the thinking.
No, we would say "moar classes and races plz, and moar instances that are.. bigger and better".
Before trying out new things we don't know what would be 'best' for us. We say now that instant gratification is The way to reward players in MMO, but that is simply because they haven't tried a game where you actually have to work for your rewards. Some might like it more than what most MMO's offer these days, but without trying... they'll never find out.
It's the dev's duty to create opportunities like this for us to try out. But this isn't possible if they just let us do the thinking.
I think you are wrong to assume thats what would happen. Considering those are less than basic ideas. and offer no change what so ever to the MMORPG universe, I'm not sure you're taking this topic seriously. And we wouldn't be doing the thinking we would only providing the supplies FOR the bridge. Not building the damn thing. and by supplies i mean ideas. So we bring sticks rocks bones cans plates cars and mud boom there are your supplies(ideas) now build a bridge(game). Do you have a lack of faith in your fellow player? Or do you have a lack of faith in the Devs?
From what I've seen, most often those ideas come down to "make the same game, just bigger and better".
We can only tell the what we want based on our earlier experiences of the games. We can't make up features outside of that limited range, but the devs have the ability to do so.
We can tell the dev to use sticks, rocks, bones, cans, etc. when making a game... but we can't tell them to use 'dark matter' for example. Why? Because we don't know it exists yet. The devs can create the game for us made by those ingredients- that we didn't even know existed yet.
It's not really a lack of faith, but more the limited imagination we have. When we think of 'what features would be good in an MMO', we think of what earlier MMO's have done and take our ideas based on those images. That's the problem.
"If you don't trust your producer or president or designer or your community person to make the best possible decisions for the game, the best recourse you have as a customer is to not give those people your money."
That is so RIGHT
Thanks again Sanya
A very poignant and well-written article. I agree with much of what Sanya said, although I tend to be even more cynical about user opinions/ideas. If I see one million ideas posted by one million gamers, the first things that I assume are that most of them are wrong, unsalvageably myopic, or utterly moronic.
She's pretty much the only one on this site's staff with the ability to write, so yeah, welcome to the fan club.
And Yes Welcome to the club.
From what I've seen, most often those ideas come down to "make the same game, just bigger and better".
We can only tell the what we want based on our earlier experiences of the games. We can't make up features outside of that limited range, but the devs have the ability to do so.
We can tell the dev to use sticks, rocks, bones, cans, etc. when making a game... but we can't tell them to use 'dark matter' for example. Why? Because we don't know it exists yet. The devs can create the game for us made by those ingredients- that we didn't even know existed yet.
It's not really a lack of faith, but more the limited imagination we have. When we think of 'what features would be good in an MMO', we think of what earlier MMO's have done and take our ideas based on those images. That's the problem.
Ok so bam. We have identified a problem. Lets pretend that me and you are the community arguing about wrong and right. On this basis the left and right side must agree on at least one thing at this point. It would be that pretty much all of our ideas come from previous MMOs and other games. So as a community how would we present our ideas and thoughts on how to improve this in a calm and organized manner.
I think thats looking at it a little sideways. In many ways they are giving the majority of players exactly what they want...the problem is that we, as in the hardcore MMO veterans are not the majority anymore.
Throw on top of that the massive increase in budgets (20m to 50m to make a mainstream MMO these days) and you have a situation where of course the developers are going to go for the lowest common denimonators. So I would argue that the devs are doing exactly what you say they aren't, they are looking at everyone and picking the most commons likes, and those sadly aren't the things us veterans yearn for after years of the genre and playing the titles.
Sadly we simply arent the majority anymore, we are a niche, and hell, when people do make games for us as a niche, like Darkfall for example, we judge them by the standards of WoW and co anyway, I don't blame developers at all for not changing the formula - because we don't give them a reason to! (or there arent enough of us that would at least)
If "the customer is not always right" is the theorem then the corollary is "The customer is always the customer"
This is why no one who works for a game company with a shred of intellegence will ever be brutally honest with a customer.
When I read the article... then I see this quote and the fact I agree with the person I quoted (tho not in the way they intended).
Then I consider who wrote this.. who they worked for.. and the current situation of that company (or what is left of it).
The only thing that comes to mind is.... Irony.
*edited to add*
I have no idea why a few posts above this someone is discussing whether the "hard core" is the majority or not. Look around at all the failed games.. especially recently. Then look at games which were successful and changed AGAINST customer wishes (in case of this article think DAoC... but imho SWG is probably a better example.. but Sanya wasn't a community relations poster for SOE.. which is why I find this article ironic given recent history especially this week...)
I actually agree with the article that Sanya didn't like(and linked in her article). Tho I think I would have written it different and my approach would have been different. Between the two article the one she quoted was closer to "how it is". Games don't fail because some small group of customers are "wrong".. they fail or start to die because the majority of customers don't think its "right" anymore.
That has nothing to do with Hardcore or casual... it has to do with Development decisions that are wrong... and the attitude of developers lately toward their player base. Oh don't worry my main beef is with things I've seen SOE employees say/do... but as I like to say.. we all have our perspectives.
This is of course mine... my point of view... my opinion and my experience. I left that industry in 2005... for good reason.
I go by two phrases:
The customer is always right, but verified by logs.
The customer should be impowered and made to believe his or hers feedback has merit even if it is not to be considered.
I just got home from a really long day at work but I have to make few comments here...
The custimor is always right ! - Cause if not - this custimor will not pay.
NOW.... lets go down to the facts tho... WIll a person that has played a character that he progressed through 1 or 2 years stop paying when he meets something he dislikes ? Probably not. What needs to happen so that he stops playing and gives up on hours and months and even years of playing with friends and developoing his character? The fact is... something huge has to happen....
The devs of MMO games have got ENDLESS amount of power to do what they want - Even if it means that alot of players will not like it. Im sorry Sanya but we are NOT talking Chicken or hamburgers here... Get a grip if you think RPG can be brought up as comparison to that. It pretty much means you have ZERO understanding of gaming. Specially RPG games.
Lets take an example here shall we... I quit WOW last year when Sunwell hit - as did HUGE portion of players that at that time had enough of the balancing method that BLizzard was using at that time. WHole classes and specs were left sitting outside an instance to buff ppl up. 5 man content of the game was unplayable for some classes while beeing way to easy for others. Yes... BLizzard lost probalby over 50K players in few weeks after release of Sunwell cause alot of ppl had enough at this point - It was not the first "mistakes"- there were seriers of prior issues that brought ppl to the verge of thinking they would quit the game because of these issues.
Here is the thing in WOW that maybe ppl need to realise by now - if they havn't already. There is one class in the game that is left HANGING in midair - flip flopped around whenever the devs think they got time - or when it becomes to Powerfull cause the changes made last time were not though trough. This is a class that Most ppl know that some of the devs HATE and have PUBLICLY stated so in earlier games they played. They even put up a huge protest in EQ to hang the servers when this class was given talents equal to those of the Warrior as a tank.
Yes - Im talkning about the PALADIN. And nothing has changed. WHy ? Because there is not actually 1 single DEV at BLizzard that has a TRUE vision for the class. One day the vision is to have the Ret tree as a healing/dps tree - not realising that when you have BOTH you create huge proglems (like first in WRATH). Then you realise that the dmg is to high so now you have nerfed both the DPS and healing ability and you know what.... It is effecting the OTHER specs MORE than its actually effecting the ret spec. And not only effecting the PVP arena side - no - its effecting PVE raiding even MORE.
Now.. you could forgive such issues coming up once or twice. But .. Go back through TBC and you will see while huge portion of the paladin population left in Sunwell. They realised that the devs had absolutly NO vision for the class... And most of these ppl were proofed correct when WOTLK hit.
Example... There is ONE single healing spec in WOW that does not have a smartheal group healing ability. FIne... if not for the fact that it affects the ablity of that spec to do 5 man content in the game (or prevents the 5 man content to be balanced around basic needs for structured healing ailities). This one healing spec was instead given talent to heal 2 ! players at same time... but then.. Blizzard realised that might maybe ... effect some setups in Arena... and so that ablity was nerfed. NOw this holy paladin spec is no longer a viable HEALER (even if he was taken to last boss for world first kills before Emergency fix). And still Blizzard claims their VISION of the spec is this and that... Their vision is NONE...
Finally - about your handraising story... Who doesn't want to get more powerfull in a RPG MMO game ? Get a clue what RPG is about... That on the other hand does not mean that all those ppl raising their hands want to be come more powerfull than OTHER classes in the game... They just want to keep progressing WITH these ppl ...
Now get a clue what RPG gaming is about Sanya....
You sir or madam are full of win and /agree.
Very good read,
Power to the people. Post your feedback folks and get those needing to be fired evited, and those who shine a raise. :)
This
I have often advocated that devs need to put more focus on test servers and actually paying attention to the results. Failure to pay attention and push things to lives gets you...
Well
Champions Online
which due to the devs own patches and actions has seen their 60 month and lifers sorming Gamestop and calling customer service to cancle within days of their fucks ups.
Honestly i expected week 3 to drive away even more people given their record.
Edit:
Also sayingyour customers don't matter...not...a good idea
"players come and players go, such is the nature of MMOs"
Jack Emmerat
Former Lead Developer - City of Heroes
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
The key to all this is communication, communication and more communication. The more players are informed about why decisions are made the more tolerant they are to those decisions, even if thy affect their main characters negatively. And at the same time the more information the developers get from as broad an audience as possible, the more informed decisions can they make.
It all comes down to how well information is exchanged between players and developers and it has to go both ways.
...
One of these days I would love to hear the whole story about archers in DaoC, how it was possible to keep on kicking them in the face again and again for months after the general player base agreed that they had already become a sad joke and still the nerfs rolled in every new patch. This is one of the weird cases where information flow failed completely both ways, it made little sense for the players that the nerfs continued patch after patch and the developers must have had some really bad info to make those decisions again and again.
So addicted players have a hard time quitting? That's some news you got there, buddy.
It doesn't matter at which point you quit. All the work you've done will be lost regardless, at the latest when the servers will be shut down for good. What does it matter when you quit? If the person was not addicted, he'd quit once he got bored with the game or started disliking some new or old features. But no, not the addicted players. They tend to go to the forums and complain. They don't want to quit, because they'd 'lose all the hard work' and other nonsense.. but they're just addicted, nothing more. All the hard work doesn't matter in the end.
You know why this doesn't happen with single player games? Those players can move on once they're bored. If they don't like the game they won't play it. The MMORPG players play the game even though they don't like it... expecting that maybe in an update someday things would change for the better.. and complain at the forums.
Sad bunch that shouldn't be listened to, in my ever so honest opinion.
Wrong. The reasons why decisions are made changes nothing. Either you like them, or you don't. Dev's trying to explain things rarely makes you change your opinion about their decision. It's just fluff that is completely unnecessary.
Updates tell you enough about what the devs want to do with the game. If you don't like it you can always quit (and yes, all the hard work you did to build your character was for nothing- too bad). It is pathetic to keep playing although it is clear that you disagree with the devs and overall dislike the way they handle the game. Either get over it, or quit. That is the best way to affect things. When enough people quit, devs have to change their tactics too. You still playing tells the devs that they don't have to change things to what you wish for- why would they do that? You're still a paying customer. Only by not giving them any more money you can affect things.
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
Of course there are bad developers that are unprofessional. Those kind of people just don't know what it is that we want. World is full of them, as it is full of the opposite. This.. Smedly guy clearly belongs to the group that doesn't get it.
Other side of the spectrum, we have developers such as Hideo Kojima. I doubt anyone wanted him to make a prequel to a popular serie such as Metal Gear- if they were asked, they'd have wanted a sequel instead. But Kojima went against their wishes and made a prequel after all, resulting in it being the best game of the series, and a favorite for most fans. This is one clear case of customers not knowing what they really wanted and Mr. Nippon showing them what we truly wanted to play.
If what customers want conflicts with what the dev wants them to have, he is a bad dev. Simple as that.
They're both wrong, the GMs are right, but neither party listens to them. XD
I loved the article, and totally agree. The notion of the customer being right has really no bearing here. It starts (the game) as an idea and it expands with the ideas and imagination of the devs. Yes, it is helped along by feedback and insight, but they cannot 'cater' to the individual.
You pay to play a game, and hopefully it's one that comes out polished and fun and one you can see yourself continue on playing. If it isn't, you leave it and try something new.
These 'hurt' ppl whining about this not being in it at launch or that class not being like that other game...really.
Ppl today expect too much imo, because how can something as trivial as a feature not making it in a launch be that traumatizing or a game you've been playing 'X' amount of time affect your life so when something in it changes that you don't agree on or like?! If it does, then maybe those ppl should re-evaluate what they are doing there and maybe make some changes in their lives, because games are NOT what life's about.
The devs have a job to do and whether or not they are in it solely for the money or not, it's our choices on whether or not we pay to play that will determine the game's outcome. Your only choice as a customer should be: Will I give them my money to play their product. Period. Only you can decide for yourself what you will do, and if you don't like the options out there, either stop altogether or decide to make an mmo of your own and see if you have it 'Right'
Sadly MMOS have helped in breading the completely seff absorbed customer that used to get laughed out of stores. This new piece of garbage makes working in just about any customer service job a pain in the ass. I sell building materials to large scale builders and that same type of customer is horrible to deal with. When you try to explain that product A does not come with the options of product B, the conversation should end right there but it never does. They complain for 40 minutes why its BS that they can't have exactly what they want. The problem with thinking your individual concerns matters is unless the devs are working towards the macro goals they are doing a disservice to the entire community. I understand that all the larger issues are also personal issues to certain players but its sad watching gamers cry on forums about things that are not broken, they just are childish crybabies that seem to not want to play the game the way it was created. Quiting a game because you don't like a certain mechanic is understanable but the vast majority of what I see any more is just pathetic. If the class you are playing is not doing enough damage to suit your tastes, the fault lies entirely on your shoulders for picking the wrong class. I mean, if the devs say its working as intended please shut up and play another toon. If its broken, that's a different matter entirely. Your ranged toon doesn't do as much damage as a tank? So what? Your caster dies too quickly? Stay out of the middle of battle.
That's where these problems come from. When you provide really good CS and actually do one good thing in resolving an issue, (or sometimes if one even hears that it happened at some time in the past), it tends to make people think you are there to satisfy their every whim.
Absolutely agreed Sanya. You can print it out, you're doing a great job here by letting people know about how MMO reality works.
You smash completely untrue stereotypes, and give us a down-to-earth, really human-like examples. Plus, you're really good at writing. It's interesting, it's thrilling, and it's "revolutional" in those dark times of MMO games - we all read what people think, and that's really unbelievable how so many people could be SO damn foolish.
Such a multi-million crowd of people who don't really know what they're talking about is simply destructive, or at least, is counter-productive if we want to see any progress in the MMO genre.
People are so easy to manipulate, that they have a hard time seeing what is quality, and what is PR and the power of "everybody's playing it, so it must be the best!". Which is BS.
It all changes now - I see more and more maturity in MMO communities. But still those are dark times, where lack of player's knowledge is used to promote shitty features or expansions. There's still to many mindless lemmings or sheep who vote with their cash, yest - but vote only because others voted that way too.
What you wrote in this article isn't anything new to me. But I often argued about it, until I realized I have 100% right way of thinking about it, and I'm right anyway, so why should I agrue about obvious facts. Not understanding it is not my problem, but a problem of those who don't see reality. That's sad, not understanding it and fighting for some made up pile of shit. But that's sad for them, not me.
Keep up the good work!
Even as a thoroughly bratty, never-satisfied customer, the phrase 'the customer is always right,' has always infuriated me, and this whole column had me smiling. Thanks, Sanya.
"We have to give the customers what they want!"
"What they want is a better product, for free."
People who say "The customer is always right" are the kinds of people who don't know how to tell the customer to f*** off politely.
Seriously, you cant say "The customer is always right" in any situation you are actually dealing with more than 1 customer. That statement had to have been invented by a genius manager who needed to keep his gang of peons to turn a profit rather than screw him over.
Developers are a group of creative folk with a vision for the game they think is great. Then that vision gets skewed by money. Plain and simple. You have investors, producers and marketing that change things before the players see it. The developers are not the guys in charge. Whoever supplies the money is in charge and that isn't the customer. The customer supplies the money suppliers with money.
Community managers are just gears in the machine trying to work with the players and companies to exchange information.
Great article as usual, Sanya.
I read through all of the replies and it seems like a lot of people are taking the saying "The customer is always right." a little too literally.
The saying is not trying to imply that literally the customer is always right about everything.
What it does means is that if you want to retain a constant clientele you need to cater to the group of people your business applies to and make sure you are providing products/services that those customers want to pay for.
Any good business moves forward because they can predict what their clients want before they know they want it.
Snuggie, anyone?
No they are not always right, this one of the most destructive ideas ever to emerge from the brain farts at America's business schools. It has encouraged the idea that "If I pay I get to have full control over everything", that doesn't work if there are a million customers, there is a baseline of service that is offered. Too many of these customers are armchair designers who don't really have a clue on the complexity of the product that they use, but they think they do. The customer is often confused, ill-informed, destructive and selfish. You have to listen to the customer, but doing everything they want will often times lead to a situation that they are very unhappy, especially in relation to anything IT. A good provider tries hard to find out what is really important and lays it out for the customer so that they understand what they are getting.
"Customer is always right" is connected to the money they throw in your direction.
I enjoyed reading the article. Do keep in mind this is a relationship - I think someone alluded to that already - the gaming companies/developers and the customers. Without the customers, the gaming company would cease to exist. Without the gaming company, there would be no game for said customers to play. Just like when you are in a real life relationship (or online relationship if that is your cup of tea) there is a give and take, a listening of ideas, learning to agree to disagree and hope that right choices will be made, and compromises (mostly on the part of the customer - heh) are bound to happen. We see what these types of elements are destroyed or not practiced in these relationships - the relationship falls apart. Same deal with the Developers and their games' subscribers.
Of course I am not interested in Developers catering to every whim of a minority. I also am not interested in Developers going off the deep end when they have such an excellent start. Someone had mentioned how EQ started off as an outstanding game that slowly, but surely, turned into a raid-centric game that even then was a bit sketchy. Granted it is still being played and I personally have fond memories of it.
I guess the better example would be Vanguard. Instead of sticking to the vision (and having a better business sense in general) that game went to the pissing pot as soon as the beta was over. Lots of great ideas - poor implementation and the Developers being greedy, wanting the WoW community to come on over... Yeah that stuff needs to stop also.
It takes two to tango.. Rather, millions of subscribers and a few developers to tango, properly. :)
Can we get an amen?
I think the nature of the beast breeds a confrontational rather than a cooperative relationship between the two camps. It is human nature to want more of whatever you can get, and to get it as easily and quickly as you can. Trust me, if a game programmer could find a way to cut their work-time in half and still churn out the code they are required to do to keep their job, they would be all over it.
I have played City of Heroes for over four years. I personally think a lot of the damage is done to features in a game trying to stop power-leveling when really, I think it could be ignored. Who really gives a rat's patooie if my neighbor PL'ed twelve toons to 50 without ever seeing any of the content? His loss. The old excuse was that they'd get to 50 and be whining because there was no content. The ability to 'flashback' and Mission Architect pretty much ate the face off that excuse.
the customer isnt always right in only one situation
if you dont have any customer
In eve customers are the developers too. And Developers are customers too. Some growing pains, but it wins. Does EVE count though in this discussion?
Veritas_X: Conversely, I'll wager that most developers are positive that players are a seething mass of exploiters, bound and determined to escape the box they're being shoved into by the design.
Well, yes, but only after the game's been out for a week. *rim shot*
@Brostyn: FWIW, the person who conceived, designed, and pushed TOA into launch was put in charge of WAR.
@Ficus: EVE is kicking ass in multiple categories, but I truly feel that they're an outlier. Sad, though. I'd love to see more games start small, build according to an in-depth long term plan, and involve their players so closely in so much of the development.
This column brought up numerous reasons why it is sometimes better to have a small player base. When you have a large player base you have to build in a greater level of organization by folks like tech support and customer assistance. As for giving good feedback on service, I have made it my goal to let people know when they've done something right.
Regarding tech support, people have to keep to the facts, because without it you hit a wall. If a tech support person can't understand your issue because you're too busy ranting and raving, then you shouldn't expect help. Simple as that. As for customer assistance, well most people take shots at those guys. When you consider that most people only ever deal with tech support and customer assistance when there is a problem, then you have to realize that there are certain stress levels associated with these job. Do not fly off of the handle when you deal with them because these people usually deal in facts rather than emotion. This is not to say that the person on the other end is perfect, but you should try to stay focused on why you are approaching them for in the first place.
"not a fireproof shield for a cowardly developer to duck behind".
That was the icing on the cake for me coming from Sanya. As much time as she spent running off at the mouth about Mythic and then turning tail and doing exactly what she just stated should not be done..................................................
Sanya is one of the typical people who land a job in the game industry that are able and more than willing to speak out of all four or five faces they have. Two-faced? Not even close.
By saying their is no customer or developer says that what Mythic is currently doing is the fault of no one. The "customer" that according to her does not exist is not to blame for a game that has lost over a million subscribers in a a years time but on top of that there is no "developer" to blame either.
I heard Obama needs another clueless spinner of tall tails. Sanya you may need to apply there.
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
You have a view of what a popular colloguialism means and that is fine. In a sense, through the power of consumer choice the customer is always right.
But Sanya was speaking to a different side of the saying, as there are different ways to look at it. I really do not see how anything you said directly negates the things she was saying. It is not like Sanya said the laws of supply and demand do not exist, she was using a popular colloquialism that is often misunderstood and misused. She explained in a sense, why in business classes, in colleges today, it is necessary to teach how in some ways the uninformed often ignorant customer is not always right.
If you choose to look at it in a purely ideological and philosophical way, that is fine. It is a lame colloquialism and like most colloquialisms it is vague and overused, as the masses are fond of the familiar and lacking in vocabulary.
Anywho- what I wanted to say... Great article... I see Im not the only one in your fan club. And there I was feeling special a few articles back.
O wow that is a complete lack of understand of basic human behavior we see here. Let me ask you: Have you ever been sitting in a train and been together with the other passengers irritated about it going too slow and then the traindriver tell you over the comm system why we are going so slow and everyone relaxes and sit back and accept it.
Or if you work with people with mental disorders like I do, understanding why things happens allows you to accept things that seems unfair and strange simply because from the point of view of the other side it makes sense and therefore there is no ill intent behind it.
Understanding why decisions are made make you a part of the decision on a emotional level and make you much much more accepting of changes done.
Cryptic just held a seminar in CO where they talked about how and why they had done what they did and now the general boards there are much more constructive and filled with identifying problems or people giving new ideas instead of just angry comments.
It works.
Its also one of the most basic tools you learn when you are educated in solving personal conflicts. Find a way to make each side understand the point of view of the other and the worst is already over in the conflict.
Eugh, I'm blown away by the tunnel vision nature of so many of the posts I have read. First let's look at some of the problems when dealing with such an issue, as I believe some earlier posters have stated, it is by far too much of a generalisation to name the entire player base as the "consumer" and assume that each of the individuals that make up this player base have the same views. In the end it’s all about personal preferences, and these personal preferences are almost certainly varied between each individual. While one person may like PVE and grouping up another may prefer solo play and PVP. To pretend a developer could possibly please each and every one of its costumers by catering to their desires is naïve.
For simplicities sake, let us assume that the customer represents the average player; or more, the averagepoint of view, whatever that may be. The issue that should be addressed now is that: players do not ultimately know exactly what works. Sure they know they want to have fun and enjoy what they are doing, but how many people out there have thought something was a totally stupid idea until they actually tried it, at which stage they loved it. Don't get me wrong, I think that some developers have got this totally wrong, for example SWG which just makes me angry to think about. While the customer might know roughly what they feel "works" and "doesn't work" I think it is downright arrogant to assume that they, as the customer, knows exactly what works in a game.
The entire issue of the player developer relationship is a far more complicated issue that many people assume. I’m not one to say that I know exactly how it should be done but knowing a fair bit about human nature, it is very much apparent that some of the posts are totally ludicrous and often babyish in nature.
So addicted players have a hard time quitting? That's some news you got there, buddy.
It doesn't matter at which point you quit. All the work you've done will be lost regardless, at the latest when the servers will be shut down for good. What does it matter when you quit? If the person was not addicted, he'd quit once he got bored with the game or started disliking some new or old features. But no, not the addicted players. They tend to go to the forums and complain. They don't want to quit, because they'd 'lose all the hard work' and other nonsense.. but they're just addicted, nothing more. All the hard work doesn't matter in the end.
You know why this doesn't happen with single player games? Those players can move on once they're bored. If they don't like the game they won't play it. The MMORPG players play the game even though they don't like it... expecting that maybe in an update someday things would change for the better.. and complain at the forums.
Sad bunch that shouldn't be listened to, in my ever so honest opinion.
Welcome to the world of MMORP gaming. Create gameplay that ppl get addicted to - add a good blend of "friends" and ppl will go on for months even if they hate what the game has become. My bet is that over 50% of normal MMO custimors is exactly this.
Hope for this and that to become better - hope for some buffs or even total overhaul of the class - even for years....
These ppl are loud on pretty much every forums. It doesn't mean they are wrong tho. In fact - these are the ppl gaming developers are hoping to keep in - with their carrot on a stick method.
i worked in customer support for just over a year doing technical support for computer hardware mostly, i got quoted the "customer is always right " several times by customers over the phone, it was the attitude that i should be greatful to them for this mighty job (normally lowest paid in any company) that you should be worshipping the customer and giving in to their every demand.
Everyone who plays mmos are pationate people normally more so than the general customer, they live and breath mmo's and as such when somthing goes wrong or that they dont think is right they rise up and demand that what the company has done is wrong and should be reversed.
anyone who has played an mmo has encountered the nerf bat in one form or another and generally felt cheated, i normally play under powered classes with the knowledge that eventually that class might be fixed, it was in the dark times of dark age when i played my animist it had been plauged with problems for years since the release of SI. I did what i could passing on my knoweldge to new animists fighting the good fight on the forums explaining bugs i encountered and how to fix them.
Then one day mythic fixed the class it was like christmas easter and newyear all at once there was much rejoicing at how they had managed to fix the class and make it more fun. However no less than 1 month later mythic nerfed the animist into the toilet with such a blow that made the class no longer fun. The outrage on the forums that we had waited 2 years for the fixs only to be denied and put into the toilet again.
it was one of those moments that you want to rage and spit but your denied so the only target of rage for most people is the customer support person. and that is unfortunatly the only target you got.
Wow, simply amazing. Did you even read the article?
I like how you took the red quote above and posted it completely out of context and then made some statement about Sanya that doesn't even apply to the quote you posted. The partial quote you posted was referring to community staff being a 2 way street passing information between developers and the community.
What exactly is she stating should not be done.
Next you ramble on about the article saying there are no customers or developers. Which is, well, dumb. If you had actually read the article. Or, more specifically, understood the words you were reading. You would know that the article was saying that there is someone to blame when things go bad and that's usually the person that is in charge of the "big picture" at the game studio.
I won't get into a political debate with you here, but this last statement you made makes all of the rubbish you posted completely understandable. Do you work for Fox News?
" it was in the dark times of dark age when i played my animist it had been plauged with problems for years since the release of SI. I did what i could passing on my knoweldge to new animists fighting the good fight on the forums explaining bugs i encountered and how to fix them."
Now that made me laugh.
Since OF, Animist has always beeen an overpowered class and still is. By OP I mean you can lay down a patch, walk away from the computer and still get kills until your pets die off. Before they were fixed you could wipe an entire group in no time. And by horrible bugs you had to deal with, you mean laying down shrooms and having them kill people through walls and doors? Or maybe on top of keeps where only the tiniest bit of them could see the ground and still kill people? All the while you're hanging out in the inner keep safe from harm? Yea, I hated being able to have two friends with me and completely destroy an attacking force of dozens. Or defending a keep solo while a couple dozen people took an hour to get in. I loved my ani for one reason, it was the single most over powered class in any game I've ever played.
For that to happen the player must think that the dev's reason is actually valid. Which doesn't happen most of the time. Like let's say we argue on the interwebs. What's the chance that you'll agree with the guy you argue with after his first post to prove you 'wrong'? Nill.
Of course it works when the problem is as clear as something not working on the railroad..
But let's take a problem with no clear answer instead; "We thought this class was overpowered due to X ability doing too much damage, so we nerfed it." You'll still disagree with the devs about their decision, only now you also think that they're incompetent for doing what they did. It also changes nothing in the game- so what does it matter if you know or not? It only helps you to cope with the incompetence of the devs, but if you don't like the direction the game is going anyway.. why play? It's only a band-aid at best if the devs explain things.. and most of the time people end up disagreeing even more with the dev's decision.
You'd be surprised if you think those type of gamers are the majority these days.
The funny thing is, those type of players can never get enough. No update will be 'good enough' for them. They'll keep complaining until they ragequit due to some silly thing (and maybe come back later, which is even more pathetic).
Like I said before, addicted people shouldn't be listened to. They're the minority after all, although the most vocal one.
I seen someone mentioned Smedley already. Sorry, you can get no wrong then this guy with his gaming community. SWG, was a very good game until all the changes. They only had to fix the massive amount of bugs in the game and add some more recipes, content, and etc. The game was great. I loved the new way of leveling customizing of your character was sweet. They should of had the armor attachment plates working from the beginning. Yadda Yadda Yadda...
Smedley, killed my favorite class of all with all MMO's I have played. Creature Handler was awesome! I <3 it was my favorite and the ability to pick and name my creatures was sweet. Anyways... as soon as the class was removed so was my "Accounts".
I understand appealing to the masses and what not alot of these mmo's are doing today. Yet, these companies need to actually implement some of the customer bases idea's. Everquest died becaues of the raid or die and slow leveling speeds. I liked EQ had a great community. It just seems when these games add more and more simplistic features such as a bazaar the community dies a little each time. The bazaar, killed the interaction with the customer and seller. You could meet great people in the tunnel at Freeport. You could get great deals from people who just did not want to wait. You could also trade twink gear with ease. I miss unbindable items. These games need to bring this back. I do not want to raid but I will farm the cash for some good items.
Anyways, the customer is almost always right. Sony's subscription numbers show this to be a fact.
Developers write bad games with no balance and nasty bugs as a way of getting back at players for all the heartless things they are going to say about the devs later on. It's like a pre-written revenge built into the binary.
Muah ha haha! %in evil tone%
Well maybe not, but it is a secret fantasy of a few people I know.
Ken
Maybe its also time that we point out there are diffrent groups of custimors in MMO gaming.
a) Those that buy a boxed game and start playing (Guild Wars)
b) Those that download and play free to play game - but use Item shops
c) Those that buy a boxed version of a game -and also pay sub and expansion prize
d) those that download free game but pay sub.
Can a person playing free to play game be considered a custimor in the same form as a custimor buying a boxed version of a game and paying sub?. Should those ppl expect same quality in their gameplay ?
Maybe we should put it this way.
Should custimors not feel cheated when a technical feature of a game is not in the game at start (DX10 in AOC)?
Should a custimor paying sub have to wait up to 1 hour to get into instance in WOW ?
Are custimors wrong in complaining about these sorta issues ?
On the other hand. Does a custimor of a sub based mmo have more right to comment on the route that the developers are taking on his/her character class ? Should a sub based MMO not provide more quality in terms of testing and long term planning also ? Shouldn't this be the same for ALL classes in the same game ?
This is where a big game like WOW has failed in the last years. They have a very solid path for few classes - while others have no true vision - and are flipp flooped around every few months. These are the classes that are NOT thouroughly tested before hand and are usually emergency nerfed (2-3 days after patch ) if they are op - but left to rot for next 2-3 months if the aren't.
Now.. consider the fact that WOW is tho - after all the game developer bringing out the best quality of any MMO game at this point in time... and still they have such huge issues that effect longterm gameplay and enjoyments of entire classes. Imagine how the rest of the sub based MMOs are doing..
This was the kind of article from Sanya that I appreciate.
Much better than her 'bewbs' article.
I would have thought what she said was commen sense and didn't need to be said. Surprise surprise, you mean Developers may have different opinions about how to approach a problem? They may even use 'design by commitee' to include one feature that doesn't seem to jibe with the direction of other features? Yep. That should be obvious.
That customers will have a varying degree of interests. Some will want open PVP, others hate PVP, some want balance, others want "I WIN!!!" button. Some want complex, others simple. This is news to anyone?
Apparently so, judging by the posts in response to the article.
So let's break down the Sanya article into points;
1. Developers are human beings with opinions that may not agree internally.
2. A Patch will be the culmination of their work into a single voice, with a unified front.
3. There are too many voices of the customer for there to be a single 'one' to listen too.
4. Feedback is still good and worthy to give though.
5. Developers will have to listen to feedback and then decide on the right direction. You can't please ALL of the people ALL Of the time. You'll have to determine your core audience and what features you think will appeal to them.
Did I miss any?
QFT
\\
Common sense, how I love thee.
To finish your list.
6. Then all customers who do not agree with the choices made call into customer support and yell at an agent who can do absolutely nothing to assist them. Throwing around words like "refund" and "discount" all culminating in a hysterical uttering of the loathed statement "The Customer is always Right!'
It should be noted that this phrase was originally "The Customer is never Wrong."
I think the distinction is telling, and fits more into what Sanya was trying to say, but is of little use to the frothing lunatics oozing entitlement out of every pore of their withered skin which only serves to barely contain the concentrated sadism struggling to burst forth and ruin everything unfortunate enough to be nearby....er, um you know, the typical customer...
Interesting but some points I do not agree on with the developer being right as well. it all comes down to pleasing the customers and if the customers aren't happy the dollar signs won't roll for the developers.
The mmo genre has created a pre-fabricated set of player expectations that developers have to work against. There is a long list of features that large groups of players have enjoyed in previous games and expect to see again in new ones, or else they will complain. So the developers try to deliver on as many of those expectations as they can, such as:
Character appearance customization - check
Crafting - check
PvP - check
Classes - check
Skill trees or similar choices - check
Loot - check
Pets - check
Auction house or trade method - check
and so on, and on, and on.
By the time a developer has satisfied enough of those expectations that they can persuade their investors that it is reasonable to believe the game will be popular - because games with those features have been proven to be popular before - how much time and money is really left to do anything new and groundbreaking? Not much.
That is why we keep getting the same thing over and over again. :/
More developers are going to have to find a way to break out of the mold, and we, the players, are going to have to be more supportive of those efforts when they do, if we are ever to hope for anything genuinely new and refreshing.
She's pretty much the only one on this site's staff with the ability to write, so yeah, welcome to the fan club.
Meh... she does alright. Nothing to make me stand up and shout "hallelujah!" but then again, nothing to make me challenge her to a jello wrestling death match either.
Only one issue with this article. I disagree with her position on individual gamers not needing personal feedback. Everyone feels the need to be acknowledged (justified or not). The developer that doesn't at least try to be responsive is doomed.
Pretty much spot on with the rest of the article.
When I read the article... then I see this quote and the fact I agree with the person I quoted (tho not in the way they intended).
Then I consider who wrote this.. who they worked for.. and the current situation of that company (or what is left of it).
The only thing that comes to mind is.... Irony.
*edited to add*
I have no idea why a few posts above this someone is discussing whether the "hard core" is the majority or not. Look around at all the failed games.. especially recently. Then look at games which were successful and changed AGAINST customer wishes (in case of this article think DAoC... but imho SWG is probably a better example.. but Sanya wasn't a community relations poster for SOE.. which is why I find this article ironic given recent history especially this week...)
I actually agree with the article that Sanya didn't like(and linked in her article). Tho I think I would have written it different and my approach would have been different. Between the two article the one she quoted was closer to "how it is". Games don't fail because some small group of customers are "wrong".. they fail or start to die because the majority of customers don't think its "right" anymore.
That has nothing to do with Hardcore or casual... it has to do with Development decisions that are wrong... and the attitude of developers lately toward their player base. Oh don't worry my main beef is with things I've seen SOE employees say/do... but as I like to say.. we all have our perspectives.
This is of course mine... my point of view... my opinion and my experience. I left that industry in 2005... for good reason.
I agree with this.
Why is it that this is the only consumer product where "trust" is required on our parts? I don't need to "trust" Relic entertainment in order to enjoy Company of Heroes. I trust in what I like. We all do.
But you see, this is the only consumer software product where you really don't know what you are buying. You don't, because developers have assumed an unrestricted prerogative to change the game at will, cancel the game at will, or remove anyone they want, for whatever reason.
You can't trust someone like that. You can't trust pouring a bunch of money into something like that. Whatever draws you to the game in the first place can change...and if it does, what then?
Quit? Who is that really hurting? The publishers already have the upwards of $200/year from us, so cancelling doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts the one who cancels. Because the one who cancels who paid $200/year has nothing to show for it but bitter regret for thinking that the things they like were things they would always enjoy.
See, I want to buy games. The problem is that the publishers don't want to sell me games, they want to sell me question marks: question marks concerning things that nobody should have to question.
And we aren't even talking about basic things like whether X class is going to get nerfed. We are talking about things like, "is moving around and fighting going to correspond to the printed rulebook tomorrow?," or "is my computer even going to be able to run this game next week?," or, "are the features discussed in the expansion pack available to me today, or are they still working on it?," or, "is this game going to cancel in the next quarter because the publisher isn't meeting its sales goals?"
Things like that don't happen anywhere else in consumer software, yet I have to put up with them here...and with increasing frequency. They are the things that kept me away from this genre for a long time, and I imagine they are the same things that keep players away now. And it is all because publishers think that "never leaving production" and "agile development" are the things that make this genre great, rather than the things that drive people like Antarious away.
So I think that the problem isn't with a lack of trusting publishers...it's that publishers need to do more to be trustworthy. And that trust begins by restraining the prerogative of the live teams to change the game at will. Because frankly, many here have been scammed, thrown under the bus, banned for no reason, nerfed, and deceived far too often for us to trust devs as much as we used to.
It's true that "the developers" are beholden to the money that they get for their products, however that certainly doesn't mean they are beholden to the customers. Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies were completely destroyed because the companies behind them cared about the dollars not the people paying the dollars. I'm sure you all can think of other games that changed without popular support.
No, they cared about the dollars instead of the game they created. They should be proud about their creation instead of changing the game only to suit a bigger group of players.
I totally agree with you where you say. When it comes to MMOs - ppl really have no freaking idea what they are buying these days. The PR teams promise everything and the PRE-Order campaign lands the game half of the entire sales for the game - even before anyone knows jack shit what the game is about. This is the first thing that has to change now in MMOs. PPL need to realise that preorders are not good for custimors/gamers - its only good for the publishers/developers.
Would ppl actually have bought WAR if they knew the lagfest of a RVR content that "the game is all about" (leaving PVE content in the game well below par of most MMOs today)
Would ppl have bought AOC if the company would have come out and say that DX10 wasn't gonna be in until more than year after ppl bought the box ? - oh wait... it isn't in yet...
Some ppl might have bought it - but I really think its time that the gamers - AND the gaming websites that are FOR the gamers - really start to get the point through. Deliver what your PR group is talking about - if not - then at least shut up !
What will the years from 2005-2010 be thought off when looking back on MMO history? I tell you what I think. It will be talked about as the period when everyone wanted to make money like WOW did - but that was it... Noone actually thought of anything else when it came to developing and publishing MMOs...
The longer a customer pays a subscription, the more they're going to feel like a shareholder. Hardcore players will get to the point where they actually know how the game plays better than the lead designer does.
Honestly I think the only way for the developers to get past this problem is to empower the players right from the start with the tools they provide. Then they're more likely to feel in control of their environment and have some tangible influence, like a deputized designer. This is only possible in a very sandboxy game, but we can see it works. Look at the ruddy glow of good health in the cheeks of Eve.
Umm all this Bitching and moaning about a game and or games...
Ok a Customer
A customer, also client, buyer or purchaser is usually used to refer to a current or potential buyer or user of the products of an individual or organization, mostly called the supplier or seller. This is typically through purchasing or renting goods or services. However in certain contexts the term customer also includes by extension anyone who uses or experiences the services of another. A customer may also be a viewer of the product or goods in which are being sold. In this case, a customer can walk into a building intending to buy a product but are not satisfied with what he or she may find in the store, resulting in them leaving without a purchase.
The word derives from "custom," meaning "habit"; a customer was someone who frequented a particular shop, who made it a habit to purchase goods of the sort the shop sold there rather than elsewhere, and with whom the shopkeeper had to maintain a relationship to keep his or her "custom," meaning expected purchases in the future.
The slogan "customer is king" or "customer is god" or "the customer is always right" indicate the importance of customers to businesses - although the last expression is sometimes used ironically.
From Wiki
the Above states that a person using a service or purchasing an item/product is a customer, it doesn't state age, looks, height, weight, ethnic background or any of the other stuff these so called "hard core players" are crapping on about. If someone pays you for services they are a customer and if the Article writer doesn't even understand this basic concept no wonder the games/Business they worked on died or is dying.
Also the Customer has every right to complain and ask for a refund if the company doesn't give what it says it can produce and sorry if you don't like that concept but tough.
Honestly most MMO companies are so out of touch from there player base and real life reality its not funny and they deserve a really big wake up call.
Even if a Customer is wrong or out of touch they are paying you money for a service that they should be recieving. and to change stuff for a negative reason and not expect a backlash is very naive.
Whoh whoh calm down. I see what you're writing about but, your english is so horrible, that it pisses me off to read more of that. Seems like you deviated from the topic and went on a rant on palys. You also gotta learn the difference between effect and affect and learn the difference between your and you're.
Granted that the "customer" is not a single entity but regardless of that the customer or the customers are the one who pays for a service and the developers are one creating the service so certainly there is a customer and there is the provider of the service, among others the developers.
So what the developers need to do is to find that pleases the majority of existing customers and what may draw more customers because in the end they are paying to make MMORPGs feasible and profitable.
The long list of dead and dying MMO's that adopt and follow this policy is all the counterpoint I need to this article.
If that isn't enough, I would add to the list a gigantic string of dry and ho-hum titles that flood our choices due to following this chiken shit way of thinking about business.
In closing I'll ask the question for thought...why does this industry (software development houses included) try to reinvent the business model? They're not the first to enter into a large format customer base business? For crying out loud, do what other's have done before you that worked. Stop taking the approach of trying to re-invent the damn wheel but making it square. Just stop.
We tell all these failed, dead and dying games exactly how their products will fail unless they take certain steps, and yet...blindly and arrogantly (yes I personify devs, they're people) do not heed our clear calls of what course of action to take and drive their poor game into the ground time and again. This, is what happens. Nothing else. If you haven't seen this happen, you haven't been playing long.
As a player I've come across plenty of stupid suggestions from fellow players; however, it doesn't take a genius to spot good ideas from players who actually have a clue. I've lurked on dozens of f2p forums, so yeah I know what crap suggestions look like.
Some dude posted about IRL he deals with the type of customers who complain that product A does not come with the options that come with product B. Exactly. Many bad suggestions are made by players who don't really know what they want. They just throw wild ideas out there based on what they liked elsewhere, regardless of the fact that such features may be incompatible with your game. Unfortunately, these kind of responses seem to make up the majority of stuff cluttering up suggestion forums everywhere. There's a reason doing support is hell, and dealing with clueless customers is a big part of it.
As a feedback-giving customer I prefer to personally email my suggestions to the support team, or whoever's being tagged to deal with that kind of stuff. Posting on the forum is usually seen as an exercise in futility, and I blame this largely on the self-centered retards who keep throwing out crap ideas and then getting all pissy when others pick them apart. Of course it's bad that many companies don't appear to be acknowledging player feedback, but if I was a customer service rep who had to deal with hordes of clueless 5-second-attention-span primadonnas day in day out, I'd avoid the forums like the plague too.
Good article as usual Sanya, but there's one thing I need to point out. Counting on "the ultimate accountability to the market" to keep game companies listening to customers isn't enough. There's a huge hole in that process, and every customer who quits a game (or decides not to play it) without giving any feedback proves its existence.
Case in point - I am not playing an MMO that just launched that I was definitely going to play. I'd played the company's earlier offering in the same genre and had definitely decided to buy this game and try it out for at least a month.
I made my decision not to play the game based solely on something directly related to the game or company. Can you tell me what that reason was?
Of course not, because I didn't tell you, nor did I tell them. I, as a customer, don't owe a company the effort of ensuring that it knows why I am not buying their product.
Now, I would have (and still will) gladly tell that company why, if they ever ask me. They've got my email address from the forums and hundreds of posts from me to demonstrate interest (I like discussing the effects of design decisions on the people aspect of gameplay, and those tend to wander a bit). But, I've heard nothing. Not an email nor a PM from them.
That's the hole in the feedback process, and it's usually obscured by the assumption that because a company is dependent on customer revenue to survive, they've got adequate mechanisms for getting feedback.
My case proves that this is not true. This company has my contact means and could undoubtedly identify me as a person who had shown interest, but hadn't bought. But they haven't shot me a message saying "hey, um, we know you were looking at this, will you click this link and tell us why you haven't bought it?". I'd do that, no problem.
So my point is, just saying "accountability is built in" isn't enough. The company must actually be actively identifying lost customers and getting their feedback to discover why their game isn't selling, or the whole accountability system fails for lack of input.
Of course its risky. You going to spend millions of dollars on an idea that might not work. Kinda sounds like a lot of shit produced today no? You make it sound as if we were actually asked what we wanted to play we would fumble around like ass hats and idiots drooling over oatmeal cookies. We know exactly what we want most of us aren't complete morons.
Yes we wan't games like WoW. Yes?
Look at the amount of post about wowkiller, and look at the whinage for games that is not topping WoW subscription numbers and so utlmately is a failed game.
So yeah.. we customers do know what we want and we want WoW 2.0.
Yes they have to do that.
Why?
-Because there can be only one game, and that game must suit all customers to MMO games.
We have 3 developers here and they are developing game types A,B and C. We have 9 customers, 3 for each game type.
A:
Customer 1: Want game A to be an B-type game.
Customer 2: Want game A to be an C-type game.
Customer 3: Want game A just as it is.
B:
Customer 1: Want game B to be an C-type game.
Customer 2: Want game B to be an A-type game.
Customer 3: Want game B just as it is.
C:
Customer 1: Want game C to be an A-type game.
Customer 2: Want game C to be an B-type game.
Customer 3: Want game C just as it is.
Imagine... if those gamers rather would go what game they want instead of picking the latest cool game and whine for it to be just like thay want to be. Would be pretty nice, huh?
But yeah, that is just to demanding and frustrating, let's settle for one type of gamee and make it availble to everyone. :D (Well we we can name them different ofcourse.)
Excellent read, Sanya. Thank you for taking the time to write this and try to keep things in perspective.
Can add Star Wars Galaxies to the list if you want as well as Warhammer. I remember when SOE decided to slam the CU down everyone's throats, the massive protests that would crash the servers were completely ignored. For what its worth the customer may have been playing games for most of their life; so, they might know a thing or two about what works. The fact that they are paying, should entitle them some respect from the developers as well.
I've seen one too many MMORPGs fail because someone decided to stop listening to the players complaints. Yes, you cannot listen to everyone's complaints; but, we were born with this gift called discernment. This ability allows a person to make a rational decision based on knowledge they have accumulated over time. As most of us have seen in the past, this is not the case with the way these businesses operate in today's economy. When the developers start to alienate their customers, who have valid concerns for a product, that is when the product fails. The "customer" is not always right; but, the "customer" is not always wrong either.
Good article....the Customer is NOT always right.... but the Customers (purposefully plural) are ultimately the ones you have to satisfy in order to keep the lights on.
The problem comes that in so many companies (definately NOT limited to game companies)..... the persons actualy empowered to make decisions about the company, product, service, etc.... are INSULATED (either by happenstance or by design) from both the customers AND the people in charge of making the nuts and bolts of the company work. Far too often decisions are based not on actual data from EITHER the Customers OR the Design Teams.... but entirely on the ego of the decision maker.
I've seen this happen time and again....first hand.....and yes it does usualy lead to train-wrecks... but by that point the damage has already been done.
Even in cases where some market research is done....OFTEN it is either completely ignored if it does not meet what the decision maker has already decided to do.... or it is tortured and tweaked to the point where it presents a conclusion that is the exact opposite of what the raw data would indicate....but conveniently matches what the decision maker had already decided they wanted to do.
The problem here is that there often tends to be little overlap between the skillset that GETS one in a position to be a decision-maker (mostly self-promotion).... and the skill-set that ALLOWS one to be good at making decisions. Note that those skill-sets are NOT mutualy exclusive (and when you find a person that happens to have both... you are in a very fortunate position indeed).... but neither are they mutualy reinforcing.
I will also state that while "The Dev's" may, in reality, indeed be very far from a monolithic entity....as far as the customer is concerned that is largely immaterial. The customers experience with the Product is NOT determined by the performance of any one individual in the company....it is determined by the the performance of the company as a WHOLE. Nor is the customers money paid to any individual in the company....it is paid to the customer as a whole. So while it may be interesting to note that Joe the Developer may have agreed 100% with the customers opinion.....but ultimately that doesn't matter squat to the customer...if it isn't reflected in the final product delivered to the customer.
To illustrate, I once had an Account Manager at one of my vendors respond to a complaint I had by saying "Well it's not my fault... I did X task the very next day that you put in the request....it was Dept. Y that didn't act on your request for weeks...and I don't really have any control over what they do". I responded by stating respectfully that while that may be entirely true it's also entirely immaterial. As a customer, I pay for the END RESULTS provided to me by the company as a whole.... not the singular task performed by any one individual within the company does (unless that in itself constitutes the entirety of the service I need from the company).
Customer Service is generaly a thankless job...and I personaly would not really like to do it.... but when performing that job, you are not representing just your own performance but the companies as a whole.... and you are often the only conduit provided to the customer to dialogue with the company. I never take it personal with the Customer Service Rep's I talk to (unless they ACTUALY are the source of the problem)...... but I will definately let them know of any disatisfactions I have with their companies services. It's upto the individual companies structures and procedures as to whether that has any internal effect on the company.... but at the very least, I've given them the raw data that they might use to better be able to retain me...or understand why they have lost some business.
Its weird - but whenever I read your articles they sound like sermons in my head... Your point is that people who run game companies and the developers aren't stupid and know what they are doing...and that us lowly players should just trust them and give up tring to get what 'we' want, because their desire to make profit will negate any deficiencies they may have?? If that were the case then most games would be good not the other way around.
ROFL Don't you know what makes the world a better place? You should just blindly throw your money out there and not concern yourself with the quality of what you get in return. It's a rosy theory; too bad it's flawed, on an epic scale.
It's like going to a restaurant that serves the crappiest food in town; yet, you keep paying for it every time you go there, hoping that one day it will magically taste better.
Saying the customer is right/wrong is both incorrect. There should never be an automatic answer or assumption one way or the other. The question should always be "does the customer have a legitimate concern?" and 90% of the time the answer to that should be pretty clear.
I literally had to teach this to developers and engineers the last 6 months. The only people who ever thought the customer is always right is a few customer service people, and management always know better. However, they are where they are because they know how to handle this properly (as said in the blog post).
Customers don't always gripe, but I agree praise is much more rare.
Everyone wants to be a star, an exclusivity, a legend among the communities. Everyone wants a game to be their game but few have the knowledge to actually make one.
I think that it’s time to change the dynamics between a customer and a company. Right now, the interaction between these two are generaly lacking and non-functional.
Fantastic article.
another article where no solid position is made in between multiple advertisements. What's next? Pvp is neither good nor bad!? Water can be cold or hot? While it's fine to ping pong back and forth on rather asinine topics, I think it's dangerous to play this kind of game when it comes to customer rights and expectations. The customer has to be right, to give leeway in the other direction is to be ignored and belittled by those at the top and you will never get what you lost back. The game developers or gms or ceos should never be the ones to tell -you- what is -your -idea of good, or fun, or balanced. If a compromise can't be reached then it's time to reroll or move on but you should never willfully submit to their ideals.
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"THE Customer" is a chimera, a phantom of idealism just as "the voter" is for democracy. Both are founded on illusions. Experience proves that in any convergation of masses, reason and logic are the first to drown.
Here's the real problem with getting hung up on "the customer is always right" idea.
I was sitting at my brother's house the other day, just playing a game and shooting the breeze with some of his friends about WOW. After thirty minutes of back-and-forth about PVP, I came to realize that we all had different opinions about what precisely should be done to improve it in the game.
I thought to myself later how good it was that nobody at Blizzard listened to any one of us too much. Can you imagine trying to make a game based on the dysfunctional, schizophrenic, fishbowl views of a bunch of rabid gamers? Such a game can not exist, ladies and gentlemen. Oh, you can try to make yourself if you want. But it is telling that nobody has done so after a decade and a half of MMO gaming.
"The Customer" is, to put it bluntly, crazy. He doesn't know what he wants from day to day (or month to month, or year to year), and trying to second-guess him is an exercise in futility. The very best you can do is to try and make something more simplistic to appeal to more and more people, and just hope that they'll form their own interest groups out of it. You can even give them a few different rulesets on a couple of different server types, leading to the classic PVE, PVP, and RP setup.
Wanna know the best part? We're our own worst enemies here. You want to get what you want? Fine. But that takes compromise, something none of us seem to be willing to do anymore. We can't find common ground between "carebear" and "hardcore" players because neither side wants to give up anything they want to get any of it. It's all or nothing, and consequences to the game be damned!
Many people commenting on Sanya's article totally missed the point. The company has to give us a stable, functional game, yes, but they don't cater to every passing whim the customer has. Their only job is making the product work, and in this case upgrading it in as sensible a fashion as they can to please the majority.
In a way, the irony is highly amusing: we play these games to play with other people and use teamwork to accomplish great things, but when talking about ways to improve the game we totally fall apart and can't even agree on the simplest issues.
Oh, well. Maybe one day, I'll get housing in WOW. (Hey, they said they had no plans for flying in old world content, too, and look where that went...)
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The customer is right, because the customer can just go elsewhere.
Money talks, Bullshit walks?