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Profile: vajuras
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Usernamevajuras
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RankElite Member
JoinedJanuary 20, 2006
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LocationAustin, TX, United States
Last VisitMay 13, 2008
Post Count2430
Biography

Sandbox gamer / hobby programmer, mmorpg.com fanboi (Best mmorpg site!).

Current playing: testing upcoming MMO, console, and PC games.

Disclaimer: All of my posts here are my own personal, twisted opinions and it is not officially supported by future, present, or past employers.

 
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5 Most Recent Threads by vajuras [more...]

Latest Blog Entry - What Is A TankMage? From Pen and Paper to City of Heroes
From my blog I Have a Dream [vajuras]

I noticed a lot of confusion all around mmorpg.com forums and my recent blog what a "TankMage" really is. What a darn shame man this concept has been around since Pen & Paper predating Ultima Online and Meridian 59.

So time for a history lesson... In MUDs, TankMages were a combination of different Classes. Here is what one MUD in particular allowed players to do:

You would have all the basic Primary Classes available like a traditional Diku-MUD:

Rogue

Mage

Warrior

Priest

Okay where things got interesting players could assign in which area they wanted to specialize like so:

Rogue 10%

Mage 60%

Warrior 20%

Priest 10%

So, you essentially took 100 points skill point cap and distributed this over the various disciplines. That was one way to arrive at a TankMage.

The other format was give players a pool of skill points and as they grind out the skill points you allow them to distribute their skill points into the desired areas. But the more you invested into a skill, the more diminishing returns resulted.

Before all that we had GURPS and HERO systems (Champions Online will use HERO system). They also used the Skill Point system, allowing players to distribute skill-points into their desired areas.

MMOs that were Tank-Magey were Ultima Online, Meridian 59, Asheron's Call, and City of Heroes. I will focus on City of heroes because that's a current MMO. What they did was interesting. Right before release at E3, Jack (CEO) decided to drastically simplify the game and changed it from a skill-based system into a Class based system. See, their fanbase they attracted were players from Everquest 1 (EQ). EQ players expect simple, clear Class based systems. So this is what Cryptic did. They got rid of their diverse skill-based system and went Class based route. However, unlike EQ2 and their ilk, City of Heroes was very freeform allowing players to combine powersets to create their own superhero. City of Heroes was very, very much like EQ we even had XP Debt penalty (for a small time in PVP there was XP debt penalty as well if another player blasted you off a building that was hella funny)

So you have Rogue (Stalker), Tank (Tanker), Mage (Blaster) in CoX games however you can pick a generic new archetype they introduced called Defender (Hero side / blue) or Corrupter (Villian / red). Also, they allowed players to grab powers from a generic pool. This allowed a Tanker for example to grab a long range eye beam skill so he can be like Superman. So common powers any hero should have like Teleport, Superspeed, Superjump, punches, kicks, etc were all available in the common pool. Lastly, they placed a 'power cap' in which forced players to limit their builds. The original intent though was that Defender was supposed to be a support type. Their buffs wouldn't benefit themselves but rather other players. They are not supposed to be big damage dealers either. Corrupters (Villian side) was supposed to be a Damage primary (Mage) and Priest/Buffer secondary (Priest).

How did players turn this into a TankMage- an all powerful entity? Read on.....

So here we have different types of TankMages. Everyone has their own specialties. There were some types of Defender that could heal really well (Empaths). There were other types that could Debuff really awesome. There were other Classes of Defenders that were excellent at both worlds (Debuff, Healing, etc). So within an Archetype, you see players could mix powersets to develop their favorite hero.

Somewhere along the line. Players discovered they could 'overlap' buffs. I dont know when this was introduced. Maybe this feature always existed. But via overlapping buffs these young supermen discovered they could push their fellow squishies into *GodHood*. See, CoX games have a cap for resistances and such. So take a Sonic/Bubble Defender. Some of his buffs was already making this squishy a mini-tank to begin with. Now add another Bubble Defender to the team and there- we got crazy overlap. Now add in a Kinetics defender in which can keep your mana regen (STamina its called in CoX). Now we got that whole covered. Add in an Empath Defender now we got crazy heals and even more mana. Add in a Radiation Defender now we got crazy debuffs and even more heals and more damage output. If you get a chance try to find an SG vs SG PVP film on youtube. You will literally see players sit there and overlap buffs on each for a few minutes before they start fighting lol. This is how PVE worked too.

TankMages were born. Defenders could cover each other's holes and buff each other through the roof!

Now, I covered blue side but I was a Villian primarily. So red side we had Corrupters. However, the Devs gave our Corrupters some powers from defender side. TankMage born. To make things even more tasty, we had great AOE. But there was a problem....

Corrupters were weaker then blues (Defenders). Corrupters were supposed to be Damage dealers however the Devs made Defenders so damn good us Corrupters were being *outdamaged* by them. You could take a Sonic/Rad Corrutper and do a Rad/Sonic Defender comparison. Defender side was doing more damage. Add to that- Defenders got better 'epic' level powers. Add to that, Defenders got crazy bonuses in PVP. Villains got decimated in PVP.

So, what drove me away from City of Heroes ultimately was the PVP balance between Hero and Villian. However, I still highly recommend that title was fun times man. For endgame encounter I kid you not we took only 1 Brute (Tank type) and 7 Corrupters. That was most optimal but we could bring 8-Corrupters if we had too. We had it all worked out as a Science and we had endgame content on farm status

Was this boring? Hell no we still had clearly defined roles you see and more tactical options opened up because everyone could essentially 'don armor'. We had Corrupters hovering to reduce aggro, snares (Snowstorms) to slowdown mobs, and everyone was long range so we could kite. Was great times and good fun. But as you see- this caused some serious envy amongst the other Classes because they got 'optional' slots in some groups. Not saying Masterminds or the other Class types are not good but just telling it how I experienced things for over a year when I played (pre-Invention). I was there pre-ED and long after post-ed.

Hopefully soon they will release Champions Online which will be even more Tank-Magey because its based on HERO system. Until then you can try City of Heroes

 

FAQ

1. Wasn't it boring to have a Team of TankMages?

You obviously didnt play City of Heroes. Just because you were a Defender didnt mean we all had the same build. There are many types of Tankmages in that game. Solo, you might not be a true TankMage. What turned you into one was being 'buffed' by a fellow hero in which turned you into an effective TankMage.

 

2. In World of Warcraft they have Shaman is that a TankMage? It can heal, toss bolts, and even self rez like Jesus!

I played that Class in World of Warcraft for a long time. Fun times. But to be a really good TankMage you need to have the best buffs in the game I would say. This way you can buff another player and essentially "give him armor" so he can Tank. In World of Warcraft my Shaman couldnt take much punishment. But a Druid....... When you have a TankMage on your hands you will know because you can slice up any encounter with them. You are all the same 'Class'. So if you see a raid full of Druids takedown raid instances you know you have a TankMage on your hands.

That's the key- if a Class is so diverse they can overlap buffs and reduce the need for other Classes

 

3. Didn't this suck for the other Classes?

In City of Heroes players considered it a challenge to take a one Class 8-man through an instance. Part of the fun was optimizing our team distribution and figuring what mix of powersets could do it. I saw All 8-Dominator teams popup to do endgame instances. Not sure if they made it. Dont think they did but they tried! You also had All 8-Mastermind groups try.

The key to making a Class diverse enough to become a true TankMage is have powerful support. That is #1. Next, have decent damage potential. But if we can buff that like we did in CoX games then you might have a true TankMage.

 

4. Wasn't the TankMage imbalanced?

Not really. Solo, no one was a complete TankMage. But with a buff from a fellow Corrupter/Defender, you could become a true TankMage. Since all endgame content is done with teams- this is how TankMages popped up. However, I would admit some Solo builds were pretty TankMagey though like Ice/Rad build using an Epic power that gave them great shields

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Recent Forum Posts [more...]

    • Death Penalties...

    • Originally posted by Inf666
      In depends on the game and the player base.
      Generally you can say:
      The higher the death penalty the more 'blobbing' occurs in pvp games. Noone likes to lose stuff. To lower the risk, noone fights solo. Its then all about who brings the most numbers to a fight. In PVE a harsh death penalty helps noone but the grind monster so no need.

      The lower the death penalty the more solo fights you will see in PvP. In PvE people will take more risks and explore dangerous areas more often.

      Overall I am a friend of a moderate value because I >hate< these EvE Online blob wars and stopped playing after a few but I also dont want a solo game.


      true no one smart fights solo in EVE in 0.0 unless they got mad game. But thats how PVP is anyway. Even FPS games the Team PVP servers usually outnumber the 'deathmatch's ervers vastly. I like doing things with a team. If I want to solo, I play single player games

      edit- bah that came out wrong i got nothing against solo players. I solo PVE in EVE. I do teams for PVP in EVE since im not yet good enough to fight solo against a good player. this might be another reasn you see huge numbers for teams. cause not all of us willing to comment Tech II ships to a fight

    • Posted: 5/08/08 8:04 PM
      General Discussion
    • Death Penalties...

    • Originally posted by markoraos
      It depends on the game and how the devs want it to play:
      Lighter death penalties = faster PvP (occurs more often), more teamplay (why should I get penalized for doing something brave for my group?)
      Harsher death penalties = slower PvP (occurs less often), more personally intense but encouraging selfishness and cowardice
      I'm talking about PvP only here because its the hot topic right now. As for PvE... dunno, some kind of middle ground seems OK. Maybe even a bit harsher since fighting mobs is usually so dull you have to put some kind of fear to players to spice it up a bit.
      IMO there is no "best" solution, just like there is no "best" graphic style. The only big no-no are penalties that prevent players from playing for an excessive amount of time. People aren't paying monthly subs so they can spend the majority of time waiting to play. XP debt, repairs, rep and gear loss etc are ok. Long respawn timers, run times or debuffs that make you useless are really bad.


      In city of heroes there was no penalty from pvp and I saw more cowards in that game then any other.

      I lke some of the things in your post that there is no right anwser for all it really depends on your audience. You got a hardcore pvp server then go hardcore. If its Guild Wars then think of something unique to that. If its a casual POokemon kids MMO then do something light for that -edit

    • Posted: 5/08/08 7:36 PM
      General Discussion
    • Death Penalties...

    • Originally posted by Nightbringe1
      I still favor the death penalty in EQ.
      Death is something that should be feared, not a quick means of transportation back to town.


      EQ2 had team debt so if a teammate died you shared his debt. man seemed so harsh think it gone now

    • Posted: 5/08/08 12:07 AM
      General Discussion
    • Death Penalties...
    • I can see both sides. But I voted extreme severe. Not because i am hardcore per se but because I like the benefits

      In EVE Online its all the way severe for vets. This way, it balances items. So if some guy gets an uber ship it doesnt matter cause very few will have the stones to fly an expensive ship left & right. if they do then chances are they are really good


      Back at launch for WoW, i still remember when raiders beat us all down (pvpers). They wore the best items and just owned and owned. There wa sno balance. There was no um, the word. There was no detertriment to wearing Epix and pwning.

      But in EVE online we have balance. Plus, all items can be player made and rich economy. And it is balanced i would say cause the carebears can just stay in empire (im partly cartebear as well so not being a hypocrite).

      So in a game like EVE Online that is made by smart devs i want severe

    • Posted: 5/07/08 11:59 PM
      General Discussion

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