Profile: UtMoon
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• • PlaneShift devs, you deserve a medal!

  • Business suicide? Please. You have to be a business first.

    You make the mistake of comparing PlaneShift to places that fleece people to make a profit (seriously, car dealers?). Yes, those places do owe their existence to their customers. PlaneShift owes its existence to the dedication of the Devs and testers who actually contribute something. The code and game exists because the Devs volunteer their time, not because the players pay them to do so like in your examples. The project would continue to build even without players, to be honest. The commercial games you are comparing PlaneShift to do not even -have- players at the stage PS is in. Don't get me wrong. I am creating what I create for people to enjoy, and greatly appreciate the people who do enjoy it, but neither I nor the other folks who work on the project are obligated in any way to them. We don't "owe it all to them" for the simple reason that they do not pay us to make it. We do what we do because we enjoy it. They play because they enjoy it. That is a fair trade, and no one owes anyone anything.

    PlaneShift is not a business. We do not profit from it. It is not a soup kitchen. No one is going to starve if they don't come. It is not a required public service. We don't have to do it.

    It is an act of good will, creating a personal park in our free time where people are invited to enjoy our vision. If you don't like that the grass is not grown up nice yet, the buildings are not completely built, or the playground does not have your favorite equipment, we are not obligated to change it or put a rush on anything to please you. And honestly, the less people around that are constantly complaining that our free park does not have all the 'cool' things like neon lights and constant drinking parties that that other high cost toll park has, the better.

     

  • Posted: 5/11/08 10:41 PM
    Planeshift
• • PlaneShift devs, you deserve a medal!

  •  

     

    Zorven, so you are saying that even after the Devs spend countless hours of their free time working on the game without getting paid for it just so people can play, we are still indebted to -them- more than we have already paid? That is seriously messed up. I wager you don't do any volunteer work. I work hard doing what I do, as do the other folks who work on the game. The players don't pay anything to play the game and most of them don't even use the bugtracker. I don't own anyone anything, including either of you.

    And pstruth, someone trying to contradict me with ignorance is not 'sticking it to me'. Simply put, his preconceptions of how things work even in real life were wrong.

    I stand by what I said about your second 'example'. He was rude and unreasonable in his 'requests'. I just looked back at some of his posts in other threads where he also demanded a fog-of-war type minimap among other things. Yes, he has problems with some of those other things. Other people do not, and like those things just the way they are. What he is doing is like borrowing your neighbor's SUV, which is still being built and does not run right, then returning it to them without filling up the tank and starting to complain to them that it is not a 4WD pickup with GPS, AC, Power everything, free Sat radio.

    As to your 'point' that we have to start admitting there are problems, that is either just pure ignorance or underhanded mudslinging innuendo.

    - the levelling system: Everyone knows there is a problem with it. The Devs have talked about it countless times with players. The main problem? It is a very complicated chunk of code that branches off into all other aspects of the game. You can't just up and change it in an instant. It is going to take a great deal of time.

    - the game being too dark to navigate: It is being worked on, as stated in many other threads. What part of "Yes, we are trying to fix that. Give us more information about the system you are playing on," is not admitting there is a problem? It is a graphics card or screen issue. Some people have it, some don't.

    - awkward game interface and menus: The GUI is being constantly redesigned, much of the time based on player suggestions. Do you think the Devs sit back and say "No there is not a problem here, but we want you to help fix it."?

    - item manipulation being too complicated and involved: Same as above, only with more difficult code.

    - difficulty communicating with NPCs: We don't admit that is a problem? This thread says it all. Think NPCs are dumb? Click here! Will the Devs change it to a dropdown menu with selectable answers to please the people who like it that way in other games? No. There are many other folks who like using the text based interface.

    That post is not by someone within our target audience. The only thing he liked was that the game looked good. Everything else he wanted was to copy the way Runescape or WoW does things. So honestly, I don't care what he wants. The posts I listen to are the ones that say:  "I don't like this feature now because it is broke or implimented wrong, but I like the basic idea of it. This is how I would improve it." Anyone who says: "I am leaving and not coming back until you make this game the way I want it!" I hope they find what they are looking for elsewhere. I don't care to see them come back.

    And you still have not given any evidence to back up "banned, punished, discounted". Either come up with some, or retract that slanderous comment. Or can't you admit that you are wrong?

  • Posted: 5/11/08 3:59 PM
    Planeshift
• • PlaneShift devs, you deserve a medal!

  • And yet, you still have no evidence to back up your statement, "Negative feedback is banned, criticism is punished, and ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively." Which happens to be what my post was about.

    Honestly, is this new 'evidence' the best you can come up with? In your first 'evidence', the person had a 'minor' issue with why some things are the way they are. I explained it nicely. He dismissed my answers. In my second post, I explained it again, a bit mockingly, but not by 'punishing, banning, or reflexively dismissing' what he said. Once again, he dismissed what I wrote as wrong and started to get an aggressive tone, even calling me 'foo'. My next post was -very- specific why the things he was questioning are the way they are. I was not the nicest, but was not abussive either. Quite fair for responding to someone who 'reflexively dismissed' two of my posts that gave him the answers already.

    Your second example... "very reasonable critique of the game in its current state". Yes, let me quote some of that.

    "More annoying"

    A very nice way to put something. Not insulting at all. Much better than, "I did not like how this was done."

    "Worst yet"

    Same as above.

    "actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!"

    "Aside from all this, when you log into the forum and mention ways to improve the game [by putting in minimaps], the creator pretty much flatly refuses!"

    The Devs say no to something that has been debated for years before coming to the decision to leave them out, -and- give the reason why they choose to do so, so he attacks them for it?

    "A horrible place [the Death Realm] of endless paths that lead nowhere"

    Inaccurate, but we are striving to make it so. :) Of course, he did not mean it in a nice way. Finally:

    "I have had the worst gaming experience ever!  What is wrong with having maps and compasses?  If you don't feel they add to your roleplaying, THEN DON"T USE THEM!  No one is forcing players to use features in a game...  ...So until the Death Realm dies, maps appear (or at least a compass, and npc's can understand SOMETHING I say to them, I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!"

     

    His issue with the maps was already addressed in another thread (no), so that is not a problem for the game. The rest of his post was aggressive and demanding. Basically, he wants PS to be more like Runescape. As I am sure you know, most people around PlaneShift see being compared to Runescape as a severe insult.

    Not to mention this post: Re: Pros vs Cons

    Reasonable? I think not. What you have in that person is someone who thinks he is right beyond a doubt, wants everything his way, and wants it right now. He more than insinuates in an insulting manner that the Devs are not intelligent, don't listen to anybody, and are doing everything wrong just because -he- did not have fun. Come in that aggressive, and you will be met with the same no matter where you go. Also note that he talks about 'we' and how 'they' respond to 'us' by saying it is 'our' fault. Only one Dev responded to him before that second post, and he said nothing of the sort. Other players where the ones saying they did not have the same issues as him. My post after his insulting one was neutral and I would not change it nor apologize for it, and honestly, he can go play RS if that is what he enjoys. You can also note how many players came in to say they either liked the parts of the game he was complaining about, or adapted to them without much difficultly.

    I am still waiting for your evidence to support "Negative feedback is banned, criticism is punished, and ballanced reviews are dismissed reflexively."

  • Posted: 5/10/08 7:36 PM
    Planeshift
• • Player Death v Immortality

  • There are four things that make a successful game.

    Risk- what you can lose (can be items, EXP, time, or more. Fun should never be a Risk.)

    Reward - what you can gain (can be the same as above + Challenge, friends, whatever makes something fun.)

    Time invested - How long it takes to get to the reward.

    Fun - The wild card and end product. In many cases, Risk or Time (oddly enough) can be converted to Fun. 

    The main equation is this:  Fun = Reward - Risk - Time 

    The perfect balance is Fun = 0, center graph. You can go one way or the other a litte, but eventually that will drive players away as the numbers add up. If it goes above 0, then you chance becoming "too easy" and thus boring. If you go below 0, then it is a Grind... and thus boring. You can get around this by having multiple activities in your game, some <0, some >0. 

    You can place them into several other equations. 

    Reward must always be equal to or greater than Risk + Time.

    Risk must never be more than Reward - Time.

    Time must never be more than Reward -Risk. 

    The second you off balance these things you will start losing players. Sitting and fishing on a peaceful river is a very low Risk activity. If you wish to have a large Reward for it, you increase the Time. People will spend literally hours fishing in a game to get that one big, rare fish. If you start adding man-eating fish, that increases the Risk, so you can either lower the Time or increase the Reward. 

     Now, let's take that all the way to the topic of this thread, Character Death (delete). While fishing, there is a chance that Jaws is going to pop up and eat your character with no chance of getting away. This is a HUGE risk. You have to do one of three things. Crank the reward up to insane levels, such as the chance of catching a blue whale made of solid gold, or leave the reward small and drop the time invested to almost nothing. The third is to find a balance between the two. One thing you can do is modifying the risk so that it is a partial reward. Give the player a fighting chance of actually catching Jaws instead of getting eaten. This converts part of the Risk into Fun through adrenalin and Challenge, thus negating itself and tipping the balance more towards Reward, so you do not need such a large reward or can increase time. Here are some examples of player types.

    Folks who just want to kick back for peaceful fishing:

    Fun = Reward - Time.

    No risk at all, so the time can be increased. Now it you add Time to the wildcard Fun by placing other players (socializing), then the reward can be very small to the point of almost 0, as Time negates itself and the equation becomes Fun = Reward. (AKA Fun is your reward). Roleplayers spend countless hours in this equation.

    Going fishing with the intention of catching fish, and not wanting to meet Jaws but finding the risk a rush is this equation:

    Fun = Large Reward - Large Risk - Short Time.

    People are not going to want to fish long if their chances of getting eaten go up the longer they are there. So as the reward goes down, so does the time. If the Risk = Reward, then the time has to be 0.

    Fishing with the intention of catching small rewards (fish) but hoping to see Jaws and perhaps catch him, but willing to get eaten for the rush:

    Fun = Reward - Time

    Risk negates itself, as it is what the player is going there for. 

    Going fishing just to catch Jaws becomes this equation:

    Fun = Risk - Time

    Since this is what the player came for, the reward is the risk. Time still comes into account because if Time is greater than Risk, Fun =< 0. In other words, it you spend too much time trying to catch Jaws it will become boring and not worth dying for.

    The crux of the issue it this: There are all four kinds of players in MMOs, plus countless more variants in between them. If you go into the combat aspect which most people equate (sadly) with MMORPGs, there are some people that will find the risk of losing their character after weeks of playing to be the ultimate rush. Then there are the people who would not ever risk their character for anything. Most would fall into the category of wanting the choice of Permadeath or not, to some degree. They will not quit a game because it has permadeath, but they want to be able to avoid until they go looking for it.

    That is how I play. I am more than willing to lose my character if the time spent getting that character was not <0 (Grinding), and I had the choice to go into the risky area or not. I would never play a game where you could be PDed by a noob while fishing peacefully. If I was going after Jaws... that is another story.

    So, Permadeath:

    Yes, if you have the choice of Fun = (Reward - Time - Permadeath) or (Reward). The best way to do this is just by making risk zones or activities with plenty of warnings -and- limit player to player PD. Grieving is no fun for anyone but the idiots.

    By the way, PlaneShift (the game I write for) goes about death be sending the character to a completely different Deathrealm where they can stay and do things or find their way out of the maze.

  • Posted: 5/07/08 8:35 PM
    General Discussion
• • Gamer looking to go under apprenticeship...

  • Greetings.  Atomic Blue (a not for profit company) is always looking for talented people (or those willing to learn) to do voluntary work on Planeshift, be it as a player, tester, or Dev. The main site is linked in my sig. If you would like more details or to talk to a Dev in person, the IRC channel (irc.freenode.net  #planeshift) is a good way to get live feedback.

  • Posted: 5/03/08 8:50 PM
    Developers Corner