Profile: Stormreaver
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• • WaR settles around 250k subs

  • I suggest a name-change for this topic if it is at all possible. People who merely glance at the name and then scribble a response are misinformed. The point is: WAR does not have 250k subscribers, it is an estimate reported on in the article the OP has linked to. Mythic, as far as I know, has not yet released official sub. numbers.

  • Posted: 9/24/08 5:38 PM
    WAR (Warhammer Online)
• • An Apology on behalf of the Darkfall Community

  • "I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles. Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will. That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view. After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point. Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

    I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

    I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game. Partially because thats hard to do. How do you show people that you can spend your time being the worlds best crafter, or just running around in the woods looking for flowers or interesting locations. Its easy to /say/ you have freedom but its much harder to /show/ that freedom.

    Again, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I have high hopes that once beta starts and an NDA is lifted the game will gain a lot more creadability and understanding. Hopefully once people start seeing the differences between all of the videos people posts and the things people can do in the game the sandbox element will become more clear."

    Aye, my apologies for hijacking the thread. I agree that showing actual sandbox gameplay is difficult, but if Aventurine wasn't so shy about showing DFO's UI scheme then it would become a whole lot easier. Show crafting. Show interaction among players and NPCs. Show the building process of a house. I don't know how deep Darkfall supposedly goes into the sandbox aspect, but there are many ways to show it. They might not be as interesting as combat to some people, but it proves that the game exists.

    I have the same hope as you, only that I'm not expecting a beta any time in the near future.

  • Posted: 9/09/08 10:15 AM
    Darkfall
• • An Apology on behalf of the Darkfall Community

  • Originally posted by TdogSkal
    

    How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
     

    The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

    With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

    I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

    What you got next?

     

    Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

    From California State University

    Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

    What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

    Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

  • Posted: 9/09/08 9:17 AM
    Darkfall
• • An Apology on behalf of the Darkfall Community

  • Originally posted by TdogSkal
    

    The burden of proof lays with the people saying Darkfall is fake or a hoax.   We have all the proof we need Darkfall is real, its up to the Naysayers to prove other wise.
     

    Just like its up to the naysayers to prove God is not real, its up to the naysayers to prove that Darkfall is fake or a hoax.

    As far as the naysayers having proof?  I have not seen one piece of this so called proof in any post on MMORPG.com since I have been a memember. 

     

    No actually, that's a logical fallacy. Go look it up, please. The burden of proof in any situation rests on the party trying to prove something into existence, not on the party trying to prove it doesn't exist. I don't want to get into an argument about theology, but if I were to theoretically not believe in God, then there is no way for me to actually prove that he doesn't exist. Anything I do can be reasoned with. For example, if I were to say "God doesn't exist because you cannot see him," you could just respond "God maybe invisible to the human eye." I cannot counter that. This creates a logical fallacy. What does this mean? Since it is literally impossible to prove something into unexistence, then you have to prove it into existence. It is a rule of language.

    How does this relate to Darkfall? I cannot prove that Darkfall doesn't exist. It is impossible. This means that you have to provide the evidence of its existence. What evidence do you have? Some words by developers and 17 minutes of combat with almost no UI shown and no sandbox elements evident. That is not Darkfall. You have to provide actual concrete evidence. A beta test. A gameplay video that shows an actual sandbox game with expanded UI.

    Arguing against this point merely shows your ignorance, not only in the gaming sense, but in language and logic as a whole. You must provide proof, because I cannot.

  • Posted: 9/09/08 8:15 AM
    Darkfall
• • An Apology on behalf of the Darkfall Community

  • Originally posted by KhaelSan
    

    Speak for yourself, I am not apoligizing anything.

    When trolls come to this board and start hating on DF with their unfounded bullshit posts, then I reserve the right to flame the shit out of them.

    You dont see me going to other boards and start anything though.

    You don't have to apologize, but you also can't refer to nay-sayer posts as "unfounded." Nay-sayers have more proof than any Darkfall supporter as of now. Why? Because the burden of proof lasts on those trying to prove something exists, not on the ones trying to prove it does not. Asking those who don't believe in DFO to prove it doesn't exist makes as much sense as trying to prove God doesn't exist. It is impossible to do because it is impossible to un-prove anything. What I'm saying here is that if you believe in DFO, then you're the one that has to prove that its real, not the other way around.

    Until Beta starts or we get some substantial gameplay videos (featuring UI and more than just combat), we have every right to not believe in Darkfall. Where is the proof of its existence? I could write a design document about a game where you train miniature poodles, and write a developer update every two weeks, but that doesn't make the game real.

    To the OP: I appreciate your maturity and understand that you're trying to help, but I warn you that it will most likely be a fruitless effort. You will be flamed by fanboys and nay-sayers alike. Still, this community has to understand that the burden rests on the believers and no one else.

  • Posted: 9/09/08 7:00 AM
    Darkfall