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General : Five Things the Warhammer 40K MMO Needs to Get Right
Posted Mar 08, 2010 by Michael Bitton
MMORPG.com's Garrett Fuller writes this latest article on the five things the upcoming Warhammer 40k MMOG by Vigil Games needs to get right.
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Anyone following MMOs knows that there has been talk of Vigil Games's Warhammer 40k MMO for some time. The game has remained shrouded in mystery and few have seen any real concrete news about its development. Then, a few weeks ago, THQ mentions the game in their investor call and how important the game will be for revenue. With that we learn that the game will be shown at E3 this year, and 40K fans suddenly looked up from their gaming tables and heard the call.
In theorizing about the game there are certain elements that Vigil has to consider when making a 40K MMO. We thought it would be fun to put a list together of five areas that are critical to the game in table top form and what makes the IP so popular around the world. Here is a list of areas we feel need to be handled well for the game to appeal to 40k fans whether you play Space Marines or Orks.
I sure hope they're not afraid to try some new and fresh game mechanics in this. Will be interesting to see how this game develops.
If someone has the ability to just jump into a predator and start blasting away will drive me nuts. It has to have a progression factor, but I do agree that these vehicles should be part of the game.
So should the myriad of spacecraft and interplanetary travel.
But what about ingame economy?
I dont think they should copy but they should take notes from planetside in terms of vehicle use and different armour types. Most of us have played planetside with the certification sytem and i believe it could work tbh with like different certs for light veichles and more for the heavier ones, also for different armour types.
Wow...a Warhammer 40K MMO could be huge.... it certainly has alot of rich lore to choose from...a built-in fan base ...and a perfect setting for some gut wrenching, visceral combat action.....and perfect rationale for jumping from environment to environment.
I think the the player perspective question is probably the easiest to answer. There is NO REASON (other then skimping on Dev costs) that a game can't offer a choice of player perspectives...and has to force a player into one. This was a big short-coming of Tabula Rasa and a few other games. I pretty much ONLY play MMO's from First Person perspective ....can't stand 3rd Person.... However I know ALOT of MMO players have the opposite preference.
Games like LOTRO I think do this perfectly where you have a variety of perspectives for the player to choose from....where you can play zoomed out from 3rd person perspective or zoom all the way in and get a first person view (like I play from)... or switch between the two depending upon the situation.
I think that would be a really good route for Warhammer 40K to go. On the one hand, your going to want to appeal to the traditional MMO crowd...who generaly seem to prefer 3rd Person ....and yes definately people are going to want to be able to see how thier character looks while fighting in powered armor and 3rd person often is more functional for melee combat where you don't have the advantage of periphrial vision on a computer monitor. On the other hand...modern (futuristic) combat games where you have alot of shooting going on tend to lend themselves more naturaly to First Person..... and this genre would have the potential for alot of cross appeal with FPS players....who naturaly tend to gravitate to First Person perspectice..... and frankly First Person atmosphericaly tends to lend itself to a more visceral, gut wrenching (and less detached) form of play...which would be a big part of the appeal for a 40K game. So I think allowing players to switch perspectives as they choose really makes sense.
Everything in this article, perhaps with the exception of the interface, is defined by scope.
With an IP this large, and spanning decades of material, they have to choose a reasonable scope for this project.
I think once we get an idea of the scope, then we can answer nearly every question in this article with some degree of certainty.
From my personal perspective, and acknowledging the fantasy version in Warhammer Online, below are my opinions.
PVP
They need to include at least four races, perhaps what are deemed the "core races" at launch. This would include Space Marine, Ork, Eldar and Chaos. These 4 races have been a part of the game since the beginning and are to be expected in anything 40k-related.
I think doing anything other than making these factions completely separate would be a mistake. A grave one. One only has to look at WAR for an example of how poorly 2-faction PvP is, even when the game is supposedly focused on it. All of these races need to be fully fleshed out and vying for control of the same resources, with the exception of perhaps an "HQ" area for each race.
Chapters/Kults/Home-Worlds
These will likely be the WH40k equivalent of guilds. As lore-breaking as that may be, at least for space marines, I think it's the easiest/best solution.
Weapons/Armor/Vehicles
Weapons and armor balance themselves in my opinion. Terminators cannot wield heavy weapons such as plasma cannons, missile launchers etc. Similarly, standard power armor cannot wield assault cannons, chainfists, and the like. There are similar examples for all races. I think this should be a player choice in equipping their character, however.
Player-controlled vehicles are, unfortunately, outside of a realistic scope at launch I think. While I agree that they are integral to the 40k experience, I think they will be NPC-driven only. At least at launch. This gives them the ability to implement them later. Again, this goes with the scale argument.
Character advancement
As you suggested in the article, this kind of takes care of itself in 40k. You could easily start as an initiate/scout for the marines, a guardian for the eldar or one of the ork "boyz". Hopefully, advancement would allow you to either specialize in that "class" or further specialize your character to be a tac marine, devastator, terminator etc, or the racial equivalent for the other factions. You certainly don't want to force people out of that initial class, since they are an integral part of 40k armies.
Those are my opinions anyway, and I look forward to seeing how it all shapes up.
Prax
I think something they need to take into account is the social aspect of MMOs. Will all races be able to talk to each other or will they pull a WoW and give opposing factions language barriers? Also will factions be able to team up? In 40k fiction this has happened, Eldar and Inquisition for example. Or will they stop players from doing this. I know PvP wise stopping different factions from teaming up makes sense, but what about PvE or just Socializing.
I can't wait to see how this develops. I played both Warhammer and 40K a load in my younger days and there is so much to the IP that probably the thing I would want to see is a realistic objective of how much to get in the original launch.
There is a tendency to over-promise and under-deliver on many new games and it would be great to see a realistic aim followed through, with expansions further down the line to add in new facets of gameplay, experience and areas to explore. Original launch could cover the central planets, expanded later on to the Hiveworlds of the Tyrannids, the Eye of Chaos etc.
Facets of gameplay could include various things like the level of equipment you can achieve, ship-to-ship combat and - dare we dream - the Adeptus Titanicus!
How will they prevent or counter massive groups of space marines pwning all?
As long as it doesnt go the way of WAR! THQ is handling it and with little information we can only hope they do well with this title.
(BBBBBWWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHH raises plunger in salute to warhammer 40K!)
They won't! Then it will deliver a true tabletop to MMO experience! :P
No, in all seriousness, they will have to balance the factions out, like any decent PvP MMO does. The tabletop does a poor job of balancing anything, and the books turn Space Marines into demi-gods. They will have to ignore both sources in this specific instance, for the sake of making a balanced game.
Prax
Interesting article!
A Warhammer 40k MMO have huge potential but there are some really hard nuts to crack to make it work and I hope they can pull it off.
I hope they learn from the failure of WAR that they dont combine the armies into factions. I rather see 3 armies like : Space marines, Orcs and Eldar than trying to fit as many races as possible into the game and shoehorn them into factions.
The hard thing will be to balance the races between eachother. Maybe they will stick to just having Space marines and Chaos as playable races since they have access to pretty much the same arsenals and will be easier to balance.
My biggest concern is how do you take a franchise that is based on the plural-entity-experience and make it playable in the singular. WH40K is not based around what one person can do, but what a group can do. If each player is a member of a squad, what happens when his squad-mates are offline? If each person controls a squad, what separates this from DoW? And with the universe being steeped in, and based on, combat, what would make gamers give up on DoW to play this (besides the social aspect of course)? Maybe this will turn out to be DoW3 (online). Or maybe it will go the way of WoW and we'll all be hero classes (God I hope not), fighting alongside AI sqadrons.
I must admit, I'm highly skeptical. I love the WH40K universe and hope this turns out well. I can honestly see them going the way of STO ground combat and making your avatar a squad leader with AI squadmates. But with the viral reaction to STO combat, they may shoot themselves if they try this route. But, in the end, the only thing that will keep me from trying this game out is if it is total PvP. Not that there is anything wrong with that; it's just not my cup of tea.
DOW 2 was very close a a single entity experience. The squads were...minimal at best, supporting the leader of the squad. The levelling up equipment aspect of DOW2 may be something of a preview of how such a system might work in an MMO as well.
Also, the 40k books are FULL of examples of the setting being focused on single entities of all factions.
Prax
In my book WH40K needs to be a fun, full featured virtual world and not reduced simply to its combat elements.
We can discuss the particulars later.
Can you define "full-featured" virtual world? Your definition and mine might differ.
Prax
"The fighting has to be fast and furious, but not so quick that players die instantly."
This is the problem with scifi games. Planetside, for instance, in an effort to "slow down" combat decided that your tanks' cannon were shooting dodgeballs. You had to hit players multiple times to kill them...with any weapon. The only weapon that worked as it should was the tank's bumper - one hit, one kill. In other words, the most powerful weapon in the game was the tank bumper. People would ignore the guns and try to run players down. A skilled driver could get more kills than his gunner(s).
Back to basics - it's war. People die. Fast. Slowing it down just makes it stupid.
Instead of unrealistic soft bullets and tanks that shoot dodgeballs, how about making combat more realistic and strategic? Fill the battlefields with cover and let players use the terrain to crouch, snipe, corner lean, provide cover fire, etc.
Until something proves otherwise, I see this crash and burn. Because the developers try to do too many things and fail to accomplish anything. Just like any newly released game since LOTRO.
Prove me wrong, I beg you.
i would treat it like the table top
give players X points to start and treat vehicles either as gear you buy, build, or a "power" they need to spend points on. Seems the best way to me.
Do you spend 400 points on a Predator Mech or armor and maybe some AI companions?
As for PVP i say
FREE FOR ALL
let the players choose sides.
Honestly, i feel the only way the gameplay will be fun is if they made it twitch-based.
If its twitched-based, they can easily balance the melee and range weapons in the game. As well, it would give you that fast paced action that occurs in wars of the 40k Universe.
This talk of interplanetary travel is madness. There is no way they could successfully implement that, along with fully realized factions, and PvP at launch.
I believe, at best, you will have the ability to teleport to orbiting hulks and/or hive ships (instanced PvE encounters).
Judging from many of the responses here, I think people who are expecting titans (lol), battlefleet gothic and epic warfare will be extremely disappointed.
Prax
I dont think this has any potential for a classic mmo. BUT
As long as they think this out correcly they may have some success.
I have to hand it to them for taking this on.
To do it right they will need to build it right from scratch.
I would go skill based no lvling. Id forguet about classes as well.
I think Twtch and auto aiming with % to hit would have to be included, to not totaly piss anyone off.
This is a monster. it will eat them up befor they are done.
THQ has done well with the WH40K license so far, and as stated earlier, a lot of what DOWII offered can be translated to the MMO world. I'm certainly hopeful. I think the most critical part is having a persistent world where player actions matter (such as planets being taken, cities captured, etc.) and at least three factions so that player population balances itself. I think these two aspects are what took a lot of the fun out of WAR: everyone was in scenarios instead of open-world RvR and there are only two factions.
too lazy to go prowling through the thread to see if this has been said but 1 thing they CANT do is playable space marines. hear me out before the smurf fans get out their pitchforks and torches.....
in the fluff space marines are 8 feet of genetically engineered asswhup. if theyre going to have a game with pvp thats balanced around eldar and tau and imperial guard they need to tone down their power to be around the average grunt level.
im not sure what would be worse then everybody playing space marines because of how stupidly overpowered they would need to be to satisfy the lore of the universe when compared to an IG.
that being said i think the best thing would be to make them NPCs only.
I hope they balance things out. I would hate to see 10k Space Marines running around bunny hopping firing meltas all day....It just doesnt fit. I also hope if they do a ranking system they cap how many people can have a certain rank. You would never see 5k Lord Militant Generals running around in one battle power fists swinging. You dont have a company of chapter masters fighting in a battle..
And to have a 40k game without the Imperial Guard would be a shame. I mean genetic augmentations and fancy armor are for (expletives). They do all the grunt work and SM's take all the credit.
Space Marines should be the end all be all if anything. They are picked from a handful of planets to, only a few dozen chapters. I forgot how many chapters there are with second foundings and all the chapters created from the original legions when they were split apart. They should be the jedi of 40k. The marines and Inquisitors should be end game classes which are feared and respected everywhere.
There is so much fluff in 40k to deal with... I just hope they dont lump all the factions into a few buckets with some arcane wierd seperate reality plot twist in which Dark Eldar, Orks and Chaos are buddies hanging out in the eye of terror looking for group.
As long as I can play Imperial Guard or a Space Puppy Ill be happy either way....I just have high hopes I can shoot a lot green skins and some fish heads.
As a former GW employee I'm interested in seeing what this game has to offer. If it's only a twitch-based "combat, combat, combat" game it'll only do a disservice to the IP as this certainly is an opportunity to bring more of the 40K universe to life, to flesh it out more. If it's just an MMO 40K combat arcade themepark, well, that in my view was tried with WAR and didn't turn out so hot.
I agree with where I think Kyleran's comments were headed. More sim and less arcade.
My suspicion is that the Imperial Guard will be NPC's only, if they are present at all.
The four races I mentioned earlier, Space Marines, Chaos, Orks, and Eldar are balanced against each other in the fluff quite nicely. All of them clash on a regular basis one on one and there's no definitive "oh space marines will always win".
I also agree with the suggestion of a skill based system, and the twitch aiming with skills to help auto-correct.
Prax
"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"
I can say with some degree of certainty that that mantra is what the game will be. The kids out there aren't looking for a Rogue Trader MMO. They don't want to see their space marine hunched over a workbench crafting his power armor. I swear to all that's holy, if they implement crafting of any kind, it's a dealbreaker for me.
Prax
I will play this if it's Planet side with a War 40K theme, give players the choice of Fps or 3rd, and i hope it's a free aim combat no lock on to targets and auto attack, use one server with every shard a planet for massive combat.
I am a fan not a fanatic i don't know every thing about the lore but if they make a crap game for this part of the WarHammer univers all i have to say to that will be
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD !!
You guys are digging into the mantle without looking at the crust...
It's too early to think of races / classes / ui.
I would like for one thing, above all else, to be decided at this point. I want the game to be mature at the very least and adult if at all possible.
Warhammer is gritty, morose, adult oriented science fiction horror/fantasy. There is nothing in the lore or novels directed at a teenage mentality.
We're talking about an IP that got popular with novels like the Inquisition War. This one ends with EVERYONE dying and is arguably one of the best series of novels Black Library ever put out for this universe.
I don't want to see Chaos portrayed as rediculously gay hot pink and baby blue warriors in closed masks with tubes running out and glowy lights. There is nothing scary or chaotic about that other than the utter lack of lore.
If you can't make it scary, leave it out. I'd rather them not put chaos into this game at all, unless they can do it justice.
Everyone knows Khornites scream Blood for the Blood god. Do they know that mostly these guys attack each other?
It takes monumental effort to get them to work together at any time and even when they do, usually it falls apart as they turn on each other because the ONLY thing that matters is bloodshed. They don't give a damn whose blood it is, as long as it get splattered everywhere in the most flagrant and vicious manner possible.
Lets not even discuss Slannesh as we know NOBODY in their right minds would put that in their game they'd have to rate it XXX.
I want to see a game that doesn't belittle the IP by making it an overblown cartoon. WAR did this and was a travesty that DESERVED to fail utterly.
Frankly I still want to see Mythic close up and declare bankruptcy for what they did to the fantasy IP. It was disgustingly bad.
I want them to get this one thing right, the rest I can accept as they choose to do it. I want them to put out a game that shows respect to the idea that this IP WAS NEVER MEANT FOR KIDS.
The number 1 issue with Warhammer Online is that the fans of Mythic was expecting DaoC 2 and the fans of Warhammer was expecting, well, Warhammer.
Yet neither of those groups got what they expected and instead what Mythic produced was a WoW clone in a vain attempt in trying to tap into the huge WoW playerbase.
Needless to say the whole thing "failed" as not did the Mythic fans got what they needed, nor the Warhammer fans and since WoW is a better WoW than any WoW clone so neither did the devs get the huge influx of WoW players they thought they would get.
So, if it is not apparent what I am getting at, it is that the number one thing they need to get it right is to produce a Warhammer 40k game and not yet another WoW clone.
The idea that SMs have to be OP doesnt seem so obvious to me. Eldar can be as powerful if not more so. Aspect warriors are kind of like specialized versions of SMs.
An idea for Ork I like is what if like in Allods they made Ork like they did the Gibberling like you character is 3 avatars that run around together. Even cooler is as you reach Boss levels you would have a couple nobs always with you. Then you could explain comparative levels of power with them and SMs ans you would have Orks raids that looked like proper Waaaghs. Works for IG too, level up an IG to Storm Trooper, then to Commisar, the maybe to Inquisitor (crossing army lines but still..)
Tyranids could be the most customizable toons because of the genetic changes available.
Theres ways to make all the races attractive to players
Great, another MMO in the works. I hope it doesn't end up with a blue and red team fighting for nonsense.
This is what needs to happen:
1. Players controlling multiple characters to form their squad.
I say let plays gather requisition, as gold/silver/copper in other MMOs, and use those requisition points to buy squad members and wargear/biomorphs/ect. You are the captain of a single squad, but you might have several squad members. Anytime a squad member dies, it is permantly dead, along with all gear with it. If you die, you are respawn as per the other MMOs.
There is no need for a death penalty as you have lost all your squad members and their wargear you spent time gaining the favor of your commanders in giving you requisition points for creation of squads and wargear.
2. The game needs to be skill based instead of level based. There needs to be skill trees that allows for various tactics, squad members, and wargear to be purchased/used.
Having a scout class, tactical class, devestator class, ect just does not make sense. Neither does levels. What should happen is all players should have an amount of skill points alloted to them and after completing objectives they gain more skill points to spend.
Some of the armor/wargear needs to be destroyed on death, like terminator power suit or special gear that gives players great advantages but if death happens, they will need to repurchase the gear.
3. There still needs to be the standard quests that every MMO has but every quest *MUST* have some type of PvP element tied to it. Albet it be moving supplies, recapturing objectives, helping in some multi-tiered assault, ect.
PvP *HAS* to permeate the entire game. The WH40k lore dictates this so allow for PvE to happen, but people must perform some PvP as well.
Basically it boils down to:
1. Squad based gameplay for each player.
2. No Levels.
3. PvP must be there!
Other areas really are hard to develop. Like the sheer number of races in the game. The only game I have seen that accomplishes this is EQ on a Racial PvP server back in its day. You have like 9 races but like 5 factions. The major issue is that most factions in WH40k work alone.
Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines can work together.
Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Imperial Guard, and Space Marines can work together.
But Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau, and Tyranids generally do not work with any other factions.
Thats a total of 8 factions but 12 races exist. I could see them making Necrons and Tyranids non-playable but this would be a BIG let down, personally, to me. So now thats down to 6 factions and 10 races. But to keep in line with lore, you can not go any lower than this without making some lore changes which I think is a mistake.
But I am hoping they can pull this off.
Edit: I completely left out vehicles but they MUST be in the game also.
If they have less that 3 factions/races then I won't even sign up for the beta, let alone plunk down $60 and $15/mo for this.
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread so far.
EVERY SINGLE GAME that has attempted this has failed compared to games we all consider success.
By forcing PVP, you exclude the LARGEST PORTION OF MMO PLAYERS.
[ Mod Edit ], PVP centric players are the VAST minority. Many players like both, many PVE centric players like PVP. Many PVP players like PVE.
Few people like forced PVP.
Just read the forums about Allods online and see the problems they are having...and try to learn if you want a shitty game with little to no subscriber base, follow your number 3 above.
If you want a game with 11+ million subscribers and enough money coming in for decent updates and patches, do NOT force PVP on the subscriber base.
How many games have to fail for the idiots spouting this nonsense to understand??
Well well, a very biased article ;)
PvP: the game does not need to be based on PvP and everything else built around. It can be a fun PvE game with optional content. Fully PvP games never satisfyes the PvPers and leaves the PvEers at the gate.
Combat interface: I disagree, a First person shooter works in MMO. Maybe many don't like it but there are many who can't stand keyboard steering game play and/or 3rd person view. Also when you're not in combat aiming your gun you can wander zoomed out and still enjoy your character look.
Praxus1874 has a a very interesting input: Space Marine, Ork, Eldar and Chaos should be implemented at launch and separated factions
meh i predict a serious backlash if somebody screws up the warhammer universe even more than it already has been,
Can you define "full-featured" virtual world? Your definition and mine might differ.
Prax
Sandbox design, (but can have quests as well, as long as they are more story like rather than kill 5 boars), full featured crafting system that is relevant in the game world, some form of bases/guild halls, deep faction based combat system (at least 3), large expansive world/universe to explore, preferably based on skills, (but I can deal with classes), no levels, (I hate levels anymore, especially in PVP games), player created and controlled world objectives (that are battled for and worth fighting for) and enough content to keep me playing.
Example of how not to make it : STO
Example of how to do it right: EVE
Yeah, I want it to be an old school MMO, so "encouraged grouping" is also fine by me.
Space Marines are superior to Eldar in almost every way. If you look at stat lines in tabletop gaming, Space Marine Grunt's stat line is much better than any other basic grunt. Necron maybe...thats besides the point. And even their aspect warriors are not as good as SM's, they only make them better at a particular role. The only thing that makes Eldar good are their High Initiative. Like you said in your second paragraph though you can have squads that make them equal than a normal SM.If you have ever read any of their books. A SM one on one with any playable codex race SM wins hands down and sometimes naked and hands bound...
To the guy that said IG should be NPC's because they are weak or not on par in fluff is ridiculous. All I have to say in on the table top my IG rock And i have many books about different IG characters or regiments. But this isnt going to be a table top game its an online game and hopefully they dont dumb down Space Marines to be "even" with everyone. Orks are fungus that are only good in large numbers. To balance them in is to put them in large mobs o boyz and let them get stuck in. Same could be said for IG too. My group of Vets in a chimera have put down Orks SM's and Eldar all equally in the name of the Emperor. The Black Library is full of fluff about all groups, Imperium and Xenos alike. To leave IG out would be an injustice to the Imperium as the IG are the backbone of the Imperium of Man. Besides one SM Chapter is 2k Marines. What is a few thousand marines compared to billions of the fighting men and women of the Imperial Guard.
(Just want playable IG in the game, Can't wait to find out more details on the game)
I also really enjoyed the idea that was seen in a rumor on another thread:
Tyranids being implemented as THE PvE faction. The only PvE faction. It makes sense from a lore perspective, and would give lots of PvE opportunity for epic encounters and the possible "dungeons" I mentioned before of Hulks and Hives.
In response to a post a while back that this needs to be "Mature", I think it can get away with Teen. Slaanesh is probably the most "Mature" example in wh40k, and even then I think WAR did a good job of toning it down.
I do agree that the setting needs to be grim and dark, but that doesn't necessarily mean wtfdemonbewbs everywhere and people's brains splattered on the pavement.
Prax
You must be one of the 5 or so people that liked WAR in any respect then.
My post had nothing to do with chaos bewbs. I even say, if you bothered to read, they should leave slannesh out completely.
My point was that I did not want them to dumb down the content and make it pisspoor cartoons so they could have a teen rating.
That goes against everything the IP has done. WAR failed. I expect it to shut down as it continues to hemorage subs. The best bet would be to do nothing of what Mythic tried to do. DO NOT make a teeny based cartoony game that is at best a pisspoor wow clone. That doesn't work.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
PS Brains on every corner would be a move in the right direction frankly. Especially for the Chaos starting area.
Apparently you misspelled tyranids as chaos.
You must be one of the 5 or so people that liked WAR in any respect then.
My post had nothing to do with chaos bewbs. I even say, if you bothered to read, they should leave slannesh out completely.
My point was that I did not want them to dumb down the content and make it pisspoor cartoons so they could have a teen rating.
That goes against everything the IP has done. WAR failed. I expect it to shut down as it continues to hemorage subs. The best bet would be to do nothing of what Mythic tried to do. DO NOT make a teeny based cartoony game that is at best a pisspoor wow clone. That doesn't work.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
PS Brains on every corner would be a move in the right direction frankly. Especially for the Chaos starting area.
"Cartoon" graphics do not equal one rating or another. I'm not going to turn this into a conversation about WAR, but I had no problems with the graphics. It was a poorly designed game, but that had nothing to do with disrespecting the IP.
Personally, I don't see Warhammer in general as that "mature". Maybe your definition of Mature and mine differ. Blood and violence does not equate a mature rating. Conan only has one due to the partial nudity and occasional swearing. I can't even recall any swearing in wh40k books/games/etc. Regardless, I don't think you should judge a game's merits based upon it's ESRB rating.
I'm not sure what you deem cartoony, but I would be satisfied with Conan-caliber graphics. I think hyper-realistic graphics are not a good idea for any game that intends to have a lot of players in the same area at once. If you are going to do that, you had better invest in good server hardware, and design the game accordingly.
Prax
EDIT: fixed spelling
Apparently you misspelled tyranids as chaos.
Apparently you haven't bothered to read my posts. I have been referring to WAR. Last I checked it did not have Tyranids.
Learn to read before trolling.
Space Marines are superior to Eldar in almost every way. If you look at stat lines in tabletop gaming, Space Marine Grunt's stat line is much better than any other basic grunt. Necron maybe...thats besides the point. And even their aspect warriors are not as good as SM's, they only make them better at a particular role. The only thing that makes Eldar good are their High Initiative. Like you said in your second paragraph though you can have squads that make them equal than a normal SM.If you have ever read any of their books. A SM one on one with any playable codex race SM wins hands down and sometimes naked and hands bound...
To the guy that said IG should be NPC's because they are weak or not on par in fluff is ridiculous. All I have to say in on the table top my IG rock And i have many books about different IG characters or regiments. But this isnt going to be a table top game its an online game and hopefully they dont dumb down Space Marines to be "even" with everyone. Orks are fungus that are only good in large numbers. To balance them in is to put them in large mobs o boyz and let them get stuck in. Same could be said for IG too. My group of Vets in a chimera have put down Orks SM's and Eldar all equally in the name of the Emperor. The Black Library is full of fluff about all groups, Imperium and Xenos alike. To leave IG out would be an injustice to the Imperium as the IG are the backbone of the Imperium of Man. Besides one SM Chapter is 2k Marines. What is a few thousand marines compared to billions of the fighting men and women of the Imperial Guard.
(Just want playable IG in the game, Can't wait to find out more details on the game)
Ever had a squad of marines charged by Banshees or Scorpians. Ive destroyed SM Devastator squads with fewer Reapers. It isnt just stat lines, as I said the Aspects are like specialized versions of marines, in their intended roles they can destroy SMs. SMs are powerful and one of the things that makes them so powerful is they are so versatile, theyre not only really really good, theyre good at everything. That doesnt mean they can beat everyone or that theyre necessarily better than everyone though. A good Eldar player that knows how to use and maneuver his troops will eat up a SM player. Thats why at least until recently Eldar were considered OP on tabletop. Harlequins ftw.
Its not just about stat line, as an IG enthusiast you should appreciate that as much as anyone.
I agree with you completely. I would be impressed with Conan-calibur graphics. I would accept much less.
My point was not clear. When I said mature I meant that the content was played down in the extreme so they would not have to deal with the hyper violence of the IP.
The world in WAR is a little bit worse than the world in WoW. It's not really bothersome or scarey in any way.
If you read any of the books, the world of W40k is a real horror to live in. The hyper violence is a reaction to the world as it stands.
I want them to try to capture that as opposed to avoiding it like WAR did because of the rating they would get by doing so.
They lost so much of the grittiness in WAR that it wasn't even the IP anymore when they were done.
That's what I mean, I just couldn't think of a term to sum that up other than "mature". I could care less about nudity. I have internet pr0n for that.
Just reading this thread, this game will have it rough no matter what they do. We're all very picky fans, aren't we?
I agree with you completely. I would be impressed with Conan-calibur graphics. I would accept much less.
My point was not clear. When I said mature I meant that the content was played down in the extreme so they would not have to deal with the hyper violence of the IP.
The world in WAR is a little bit worse than the world in WoW. It's not really bothersome or scarey in any way.
If you read any of the books, the world of W40k is a real horror to live in. The hyper violence is a reaction to the world as it stands.
I want them to try to capture that as opposed to avoiding it like WAR did because of the rating they would get by doing so.
They lost so much of the grittiness in WAR that it wasn't even the IP anymore when they were done.
That's what I mean, I just couldn't think of a term to sum that up other than "mature". I could care less about nudity. I have internet pr0n for that.
I will be the first to admit that I am a poor judge of Warhammer Fantasy. I dislike that setting, there is nothing about the lore that speaks to me in the same way that the 40k setting does.
40k isn't so much scary, as it is desperate. It's a desperate struggle for all these races to survive, constantly at war with one another. I think war should be everywhere in the game, but unless you're an average hive world citizen, there's not much that's scary.
"And they shall know no fear" :)
And to the guy talking about how he destroys with IG on the tabletop. You could make that argument for any of the races in the game. The simple fact is that you don't win on the table with IG by fighting against the other races with equal numbers. You win through superior firepower and hordes of troops. That's not viable in an MMO setting. They aren't going to give you a leman russ or 30 other infantry NPCs to run around with you to make you equal to everyone else.
On the Eldar front, I would say any aspect warrior is roughly on par with a Space Marine.
Let's be clear here, a fun and balanced game is never going to be true to the IP. There will be sacrifices, for the sake of making a game. What we should be hoping here, are that the sacrifices are small.
Prax
Lore that goes back to 1988. Heck yeah we're picky fans!! I was old enough to appreciate the lore back then. I'm crotchety now and don't want them abusing the lore I've grown to love in my adulthood.
I bet more than half the people on these forums were "born" around the time Warhammer 40k started up. Keep in mind the fantasy side had been going for a while when they chose to start up the space version.
They have a serious set of shoes to fill.
Mythic failed miserably and made me lose all respect for a company, up until WAR that, I actually liked.
Ever had a squad of marines charged by Banshees or Scorpians. Ive destroyed SM Devastator squads with fewer Reapers. It isnt just stat lines, as I said the Aspects are like specialized versions of marines, in their intended roles they can destroy SMs. SMs are powerful and one of the things that makes them so powerful is they are so versatile, theyre not only really really good, theyre good at everything. That doesnt mean they can beat everyone or that theyre necessarily better than everyone though. A good Eldar player that knows how to use and maneuver his troops will eat up a SM player. Thats why at least until recently Eldar were considered OP on tabletop. Harlequins ftw.
Its not just about stat line, as an IG enthusiast you should appreciate that as much as anyone.
(I should of quoted but bleh hehe)
I have been charged by banshees and charged with them :) . I have charged banshees and scorps with my assault squad and wiped them. I actually played Eldar first, since about 3rd edition. I am talking basic stat line SM is better than most everyone. In the books one on one SM kicks everyones ass. The game is all about dice rolls. The space marine is well balanced and can do anything. Eldar are good at what you make them good at, aka aspects. in hand to hand there are few that surpass harlequins except Tyranids now ith whiplash which now give harlies Init 1.
Either way I tend to just turn on the heavy flamers power up the meltas and make sure the promethium isnt at a shortage.
Just love the fluff with the Imperium. The space elves got sold when I joined the Army and bought Tau. When 5ED came out and ruined the Tau I picked up the IG and some Space Wolves which I love to play so far. Nothing like drunk Space Vikings backed up by IG PDF in Apoc.
MUST HAVE TYRANID PLAYERABLE FACTION.
Amen.
The problem with Tyranid's is... they have no free will of their own. Seriously, it's a hive mind, so they're being directed by the hive ships in orbit so it just goes against the lore to have Tyranids as a playable race/faction/whatever. It's the same problem with the Necron's, but everybody else is fine. ^^ Bring on the Tau I say, bring on the Fire Caste!
I agree that the a SMs are the best all around troops, throw most situations at them and they have a decent chance. They do well at range and in melee but there are better at both in many armies. Depends on the situation you want to put them in.
It seems like we are mostly in agreement at this time.
I love IG too btw.
love killing those superhumans with massed lasgun fire lol
I always thought a game based on the rivaling factions within the imperium would have made more sense. You have the marines, the Inquisition, the Mechanicum, the Ecclesiarchy, various rough traders, gang members, bounty hunters and nobility and more. Then you have the option of being a radical or a puritan, a follower of chaos or the god emperor. Do you collect Alien artifacts and items or are you appalled by them.
This allows for one PVE faction, but 2 or even more PVP factions. Say followers of chaos enter a instance at one end and the good guys enter at the other end and then you have a race to the objective with pvp thrown in. (Sounds a bit like Dregion from Aion but you get the idea).
Most of the factions I've listed are also more free in their choices of equipment imo. An inquisitor can wear anything from a robe to power or even terminator armor. They might also have access to psychic powers while a faction like Tech priest have access to ancient tech. I guess Marines are the ones most restricted in this fashion. they are how ever at the core of what most consider to be 40k. Personally i don't mind, and might even prefer not having space marines as a playable faction.
For a game with a at least partial focus on ranged fire fights i think a good cover system would add a nice level of tactical game play. Like the system thats planed for the smugglers in the old republic, but you know, available for everyone.
Having said that i would still be more then happy with just a Dawn of War online.
Enough ranting... Its time for bed.
' to be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times. It is a universe you can live in today if you dare, for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort to hope. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.'
If they manage to turn this incredible setting into some tween WAR cartoon then I'm off.
I really think that taking Warhammer 40k into the mmo world just will not translate well. It would be absolutely marvelous if it worked out, but I just don't see it playing out well. Chock my negative attitude to our string of bad choices since the first mmo rolled out after WoW.
Apparently you haven't bothered to read my posts. I have been referring to WAR. Last I checked it did not have Tyranids.
Learn to read before trolling.
No.
I believe i will troll wherever and whenever and however i like.
I read a post on page 2 that gave me an idea and that could potentially be realistic for W40k. W40K is strongly based on squads. If you have each player be a member of a squad, then you force group play and pugging, which immediately shots down several other types of gamers and it fails. If you have people running on their own, it's really won't feel like W40K, even at war, it will just be Sci-fi mmo with W40K theme.
A player squad system though, would work, and would work WITH vehicles in mind.
Example: You are player X of the Space Marine race. You start as a young squad leader of a scout squad. Scout squad gives you a maximum of 3 other npc team members.
You can have 2 type of progression system. One would be purely levels with allocated stats into types. If you put points into Marine tree, then you unlock better gear for your npc squad when you are a marine squad. If you put points into the vehicle tree, then it unlocks more vehicle you can drive (meaning you don't have active squad members, they are inside the vehicle with you). This would also balance out player vs vehicle combat. Let's say you have an Ork Shoota player, who has several npcs under his command. He could go full anti-vehicle customization on his npcs, and gear himself into Anti-player gear. Same goes for vehicle customization, if a Dreadnaught is geared for anti-vehicle/building and faces an anti-vehicle squad, he's pretty much fucked if he's alone.
The second one would be skill based and allow way more character reclassing. You could put a space marine squad together and get better as a marine and gain more skill points. You could choose the play a driver the next day and start at 0 point into driving. Could have multiple skills for driver that are unlocked as you gain more points into basic driving. Maybe one for each vehicle even.
Example:
Driving x/100
-Dreadnought x/100 (Unlocked at 30 driving)
-Rhino/Razorback x/100 (unlocked at 15)
-Predator x/100(unlocked at 60 in driving)
-Land Speeder x/100 (unlocked at 1 in driving)
-etc..
Driving Weaponry x100
-Anti-Infantry weapon x/100
-Anti-Heavy infantry weapon x/100
-Anti-Vehicle weapon x/100
-Anti-Air wepaon x/100
That would allow for plenty of customization and maximum player choice.
As for pure infantry classes, you could unlock powerful hybrids. Let's say you want a Grey Knight squad, you'd need 100/100 in Infantry Squad, 60/100 in Raptor Squads, 60/100 in Space Marine squads and 30/100 in Terminator Squads.
A bit like FFXI class system if you wish.
What makes you think they want to? As far as some are concerned FFA Full Loot says it all. Of course, that totally niches the game at launch(in the west). But thats simply the price one pays for a sand box game...<rolls eyes>. I'm hoping that they have more common sense than that(or at least I'm hoping their investors do...). The 40K lore is very rich and deep, and so many things can be done with it, it would be a shame if their approach drops them into a narrow niche, and thus limits its potential audience(and development).
Interface wise, perhaps over the shoulder for most things, but switching to first person for sniping and melee combat? Everyone starts out with training for the basic weapons and armor, but the heavy gear takes specialized training.
How about they start by making it an actual mmorpg rather than the current trend of making a single player game expanded to multiplayer to get it out of the door quicker
I think DoW 2 hints on the kind of system they'd have in place
Similar to DDO I would imagine the particular classing you choose will open up the options as you gain levels in combat
I trust THQ knows what they're doing cause as of yet they haven't truly screwed up the WH40k DoW series.
But really the game will definately have to be an MMOFPS/RPG hybrid to stay anywhere close to the fluff.
As for what the editor said about Racial pairings...It's a bit off key imho
Orks & Chaos? Not hardly, Unless there's some Orks still stupid enough to buy their lies.
I made the comment before under the actual heading of the WH40k announcement
Pairings SHOULD be
Imperium of Man: IG, Inquisition (more than just the SoB are out there), Space Marines
Orks
The Ancient Eldar: Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar
Forces of Chaos (all inclusive) (This one and the one below it should adhere pretty tightly to the fluff)
Empire of Tau (All inclusive)
NPC Race Mobs - Necrons and Tyranids (I'm sure some will probably argue this point til it's beating a dead horse but honestly both of these are reliant upon Hive mind archetype and thusly cannot be player owned)
For the universe I would say they have the Core home planets as the start points and then one faction world followed with one conquerable world for each.
So all in all you're only looking at 10 planets to fix up, plus the moons if you wish to include those.
And much like WoW I would assume they'd insert notable characters from the official fluff.
I think people are taking it too seriously. Really, it should be quite easy for them to come up with a good game out of this. They probably won't appease the hard-core lore fanatics. But do they have to? Those people are in the minority anyway. As long as they do a decent job, it should be fine. Hell, people are still complaining about the lore in WoW, eventhough it's their own game and they can do with it whatever they want!
As for the gameplay itself. Just make sure there is very substantial PvP, and that you have more than two factions, and you're all set. Everything else can be expanded upon in the future. But the number of factions is something they absolutely have to get right.
Personally, I'd like to see a system where the players can form factions. Like if a few guilds get together and ally with each other, they could collectively secede from their original faction and make their own, becoming enemies of the original faction. That way it's more organic, and if there's a need for 4, 5 or 10 factions it could happen of its own volition. I *think* that's the way it's set up in EVE (but I'm not sure on this).
But even if they choose to limit it, just make sure it's more than 2 for god's sake. This is just absolutely totally crucial.
I'm oblivious to Warhammer. Can someone help me out:
What is Warhammer 40k? Is it going to be a true MMO for PCs? Like a fantasy MMO?
Thanks <3 ; )
The chance to play as an Eldar Aspect Warrior? Nom nom nom!
The Eldars Warrior Path is literally the perfect idea for an MMO. Start off as a simple Citizen Soldier as a Guardian and eventually end up becoming an Exarch or Autarch.
The entire process would also make for a thrilling levelling path as entire journey can be done with the purpose of one day embracing Khaine and taking upon one of the many famous names and armor of those Exarch's who have gone before you.
i would play a game with even half the features you just described.
Oh and as for the WW2O reference, you can't jump into vehicles when you are in the battlefield, you have to spawn in as one (and you can't leave it).
That system coupled with a sweet customisation system would make a very solid combat system where you have tanks and infantry working together (as the tank crew cannot exit the tank and the infantry get the benefit of having a big portable gun to help them take out armoured stuff)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000
Hope that helps.
Prax
Its classic space opera. Look up the details here. warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki
If this gets screwed up like WAR, I'm just gonna cry ;;
I'm sorry but to all you who think that 3 factions or more will balance the populations, past precedent shows this is a mistake. You can look at both Planetside and Dark Age of Camelot as proof and I can only imagine how much more of a problem 4 or more factions would cause. What good would a game be with 4 factions but its still 80% space marines and 5% each of orks, chaos and eldar? MOre factions has no protection against that.
On most Planetside servers except one that I can recall, the Vanu was the lowest populated faction. On all of those servers, the top 2 factions pounded the weakest faction because it increased their odds for success. It was possible to actually hold territory because the weakest faction couldn't mount enough reinforcements to take it back.
This same trend was apparent in Dark Age of Camelot. The only difference is that the weakest factions varied from server to server.
Also I beg t differ with one of WAR's problems being the popularity of scenarios over open world pvp. The reason scenarios were popular is because they were accessible and the most fun for the most people. Well and the rewards system for them was straightforward and not broken. Open pvp may have the highest potential for the most fun with dozens of allies battling dozens of foes, but those moments were so rare. Most of the time, again, we run into the path of least resistance problems. If the challenge was too tough for one side, they left for undefended capture points in frustration. And so the open pvp goose chase began with the strong force running around trying to undo the chicken tactics of the weaker force.
Another thing that killed open pvp aside from the multiple patchwork, grindy new rewards systems, was the diminishing xp returns for killing players. I understand the need to remove the incentive of killing the same player over and over as a griefing prevention. However, in large scale pvp it quickly became completely worthless to kill each other over and over for minimal reknown and xp despite how fun it was. Diminishing returns should have been shut off in open pvp.
So, everyone continued to complain ever more loudly about how scenarios were killing open pvp. They let scenarios stagnate while putting tremendous effort into open pvp. They should have run the numbers. Most people would rather participate in a scenario with a fun factor of 80 every 15-20 minutes, than open world pvp with a 100 fun factor once a day at best. I played WAR for 5 months and then came back for another 2 months and I can count on one hand the number of awesome open pvp experiences.
I would like to see scenarios expanded upon. I think it would be neat for a mid match call for reinforcements where 2 scenarios instances could combine. Hopefully it would be possible to do this such that mismatched instances are combined to even the sides out. (say one scenario the marines are whipping the eldar, and another the eldar are whipping the marines... combine them and let the chips fall where they may)
WAR failed before it ever had a chance of success because of the engine they created that game on, you needed a freaking super computer to even try to play that game. If they go that same route, I do not care how great the graphics are or how awesome the combat is, if only about a couple thousand players can even play it the game is doomed to failure before it ever gets off the ground.
They need to be very realistic in their approach to this game, WAR how great potential, you can figure that out just by how many people signed up to the beta, but Mythic blew it over and over again before it ever got released. Would love to see a 3 faction system, anything more than that and you are watering it down too much from 'expectations', than a reality. And for the love that is all good and holy in the universe keep "battlegrounds" out of this game, was one of the stupidest idea's Mythic tried /cough stole /cough from WoW! Really hope they do this game justice, I think we all want that.
or there's the official games workshop site at
www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp
should also have a few links if u need more info
Welcome to Warhammer 40,000
The 41st Millennium is a savage future age where Mankind must battle for survival in a galaxy riven by bloodshed and destruction. Humanity teeters on the brink of extinction, assailed on all sides by aliens, traitors and Daemons, and only the superhuman strength of the Space Marines and the uncountable numbers of the Imperial Guard stand between the slavering alien hordes and total annihilation.
The issue with the 2 stronger factions ganging up on the weaker one shouldn't be a problem. You have to ask yourself, what is the game about? If it's about gaining territory, then once the weaker faction lost it, there is no more reason to attack it now is there? If it's about getting relics which buff you daoc style, then the same thing, once a faction loses it, there's no more reason to attack them. Once a faction wins, the rewards for beating them should increase several-fold. So the more one faction wins, the more incentive there is for the other 2 (or more) to gang up on them.
This will only become a problem if they put in some sort of reward system that will reward the stronger faction for continuously beating on the weak one. Which is exactly what a 2 faction system does. On every server there's one faction that's strong, and it beats the weaker one. Once they beat the weaker one, they become even stronger, so they're even harder to defeat. Until that side gets bored with constantly winning and quits the game due to stagnation. Or a patch over-buffs the other side. Then it flips to that side, and the whole thing repeats.
This is why more than 2 factions is crucial. If you're saying that 90% of the people will play the OPd faction, then that's a game-design flaw in that there is an OPd faction to begin with. But if you have several completely symmetrical (power-wise) factions, then this shouldn't be a problem. Which is why I think it's even more crucial to let the players form their own factions.
And, I agree that in WAR scenarios were more popular and more fun than oRvR, so most people chose them. The problem most of the people that I know, that played WAR, had with oRvR, is that by definition you go out there and you die on the spot. Simply because so many people fight at one spot. Factor in ridiculous AoE, and you have a gankfest. And it has to be this way too. Cause if people could actually survive for more than 2 seconds in oRvR, then not only will it last forever, but that survivability will totally break small-scale encounters.
So if WAR40k revolves completely around a scenario-like system, I'll be happy with that. And I know many others that would as well.
Also, since we're on the subject of making wishes, please for the love of god, don't do healbitches in this game. I beg of you. The entire tank/heal/dps thing REALLY got old by now. This whole reliance on healers bullshit that's been going on in these games just has to go.
And I don't know about the WAR40k lore, but does it even have healers? Does it have tanks? Not the vehicles I mean, but units that do practically no damage but also can take a lot? I would love to see this old archetype notion get eradicated.
This is how I imagine the game will turn out. I imagine a mass effect style combat system along with 3 or 4 different offensive abilities (depending on the class) that the player can use, and then a couple buffs and non-combat orientated moves. I also see them putting in some sort of lock on system, like in the first fable, to make combat seem a little more fluid for melee classes. The leveling system would be like the first mass effect, where you specialized in a few of a bunch of different fields as you leveled.
The main thing for this game is the combat. If it's not fast paced and brutal, it won't be very good. Well, let's hope for the best.
OK a whole lot to talk about here.
1) Faction/PVP: I'm of two minds here. On one hand, I am SICK to death of the "Everyone gets lumped into 2-3 sides and you're not allowed to interact with the enemy save stabbing them". On the other, I don't see a Choas Marine and an Imperial Guardsman standing side-by-side fighting a Tau and a Dark Eldar. The most obvious faction setup in my mind would be Order, Chaos, and Other.
2) Vehicles. Leave these as battlefield/quest props like in WoW, or make them like the tanks and such in early Planetside where infantry were still needed to accomplish objectives and could with the proper loadout deal with vehicles. DO NOT LET ANYTHING RESEMBLING A BFR IN PVP! That means no pilotable Titans/Gargants/Wraithlords.Not in PVP anyway, the balance shifts too heavily in favor of them.
3) Space travel. Gotta be instant ports via the Warp. It's just impractical for anything else to work without building an entire secondary system around the Fleets; If you insist on that being in wait an expansion or two.
4) Combat: Something like TR or even DDO (Combination of FPS and standard MMO) seems best. Action-packed and fun. Make terrain/cover matter.
5) Character Advancement: Has to be at least partly class-based. Sorry, I don't see someone taking points in Space Marine Armor to get Terminator suits, then taking a few points in Psyker, then getting Assault Trooper jump packs being fair. Or even working with the lore. Let each "class" be a framework for dozens of potential skills and flexible potential, but make sure a Marine is a Marine and a MadBoy is a Madboy.
6) Lore: Take a lesson in what NOT to due from EA Mythic. Don't play fast and loose with the lore one minute, then lore nazi the next. Don't make female dwarves to appease the players, then refuse to make female Chosen. Look, Marines have to be men, SoBs have to be female, Orks have to be green.
7) Scale: Read the first sentence of part 6 again. Don't promise way more than you can provide. Don't tell us we'll have 6 starting areas with massive campaigns and unique capital cities, then scrap 99% of it. Don't get people's hopes up that X class will be in at launch, then change your mind at the last minute.
8) The Holy Trinity: Lose it. 40k doesn't need it. obviously you'll have some more defensive guys, and some battlefield healers, but not to the point of crystalizing everything into 3 unbreakable roles. Planetside had teh idea pre-Core Combat. Keep it that way.
Okay I think we can all agree there needs to be a minimum of 3 factions, at least 2 of which need to be player factions.
The Imperium being together just makes sense. Your Space Marines, Daemon Hunters, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard, etc. That's a given. This has to be a player faction, especially the space marines. They are THE iconic group of the game. The rest of the Imperium is nice, but there's varying degrees of necessity.
The Eldar make sense as a playable faction, because they're seen as a "good" race, for the most part. They adhere to higher ideals and such. They're pretty popular and you get all the cool uber-futuristic technology while still being pretty alien. There's no way the Imperium would ever work with them, because they think the only good alien is a dead alien. This immediately creates a point of conflict for them to go up against the Imperium. Now on their own they're pretty powerful, but I see a good point for an ally with them in the Tau. The Tau also have super futuristic technology, are definately alien, and are always talking about the greater good. I think if any two alien factions allied, it would be the Eldar and the Tau. In addition to being my favourite race, the Tau bring a sense of working together to the table, the urge to unify that could see them reaching out to the Eldar, who may be worried about being overwhelmed with all the enemies set upon them. The Tau have the cool robotic stuff, rail guns and seeker drones and so-on. I've heard them described as anime-inspired, which could be good or bad depending on your view. Think of the cool mecha animes kinda like macross or gundam. Unfortunately the rest of the armies are too diametrically opposed to these two races, so you'd only get the two. We could call this the "(Good) Alien" faction.
Orks. You can't forget about the orks. They got guns, they paint things red to make em go faster, they're unique and charismatic in a number of ways. What they really care about is fighting and being the strongest. However they're not too smart. While we could have them alone, I don't think we're going to get too far with Orks by themselves. I think if pressed, the Orks could be convinced to work alongside the Dark Eldar. They're pirates, they like taking slaves, and generally being depraved. They might see the Orks as a battering ram to be directed rather than a foe to be fought. Plus how far can you really get trying to torture an Ork? They only really care about fighting anyways. This makes them unlikely but believable bedfellows in trying to cause havoc in the universe. I think this could be a player or npc faction. It would have to be done just right to be playable, but I'm sure there are many people who really would like the chance.
This leaves the Tyranids, the Necrons, and Chaos. These would be the hardest to make playable. Honestly I don't see any of them having any reason to work together either. The tyranids and necrons are both pretty mindless hive entities, opposed to eachother at biological/technological levels. Chaos are only interested in serving their own Dark Gods nefarious wills. Perhaps you could have Chaos working together with the Dark Eldar, but I think that would be a bit of a stretch. I think you'd have to make these 3 seperate factions, and npc only. As much as any of them seem like they would be cool to play, there really isn't much in there for story and so-on besides kill and mutilate because the big brain says so. I know the Chaos marines are slightly different, but really they do follow what their chosen diety tells em to.
So we could easily get 2-4 factions out of the lore, if we had to. I think we'd need at least 2 to feel like it was a true war. Three would be better, which could work as you can see from starcraft (*cough*ripoff*cough* :p) or even four if balanced properly and with the proper motivation. You'd definately have to have an incentive to play a lower population race (more exp, bonuses in combat, etc), and I'm pretty sure the Imperium faction would be the most populated.
I think we can all safely say that the Vigil games people certainly have a very careful path to tread, as we all want this done right.
With respect Blurr, your post makes me wonder how familiar you are with Warhammer40k lore.
The Eldar have more than once allied with the Imperium when facing a worse threat (Tyranids, Necrons, etc)
The Eldar have more than once used the Orks as pawns in their plots
As have the Dark Eldar.
The Tau either co-opt or destroy. They don't really ally often. Although in the name of the Greater Good they might consider it.
The Dark Eldar became so because of their races' misuse of the Warp and the machiinations of Slaneesh, one of the Chaos Gods. It's possible this could drive them along the saide of the Chaos Marines.
Lore-wise the only true answer if each race be its own faction, but this would NEVER work in an MMO because of player population balance issues. So we're going to be stuck with 2-3 factions. I'd rather 3; it seems to balance better than 2.
PvP will be hard to balance to me a huge issue is that side are not black and white in Warhammer universe. Imps fight imps, orks fight other orks, Chaos fights etc. I am not going to even pretend I know how to balance that but something open where the person you are working with today may very well be the one you are fighting tomorrow needs to be in place.
I would also love to see the Tau conveniently left out as I have never cared for it or even seen why it was necessary to add them as they are. I suspect the fear of all the rats in space jokes is why we got Tau instead of skaven in 40k.
Tthe Necron at least fill the niche left open by there being no undead in 40k but do occur in fantasy.
Options I want options on appearance such as what chapter what hive what god what world etc.
^This^
MUST NOT HAVE TYRANID AS PLAYABLE FACTION. There's no story there, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest a Tyranid could have independant thought. All Tyranid do is eat. You know what... I take that back, Tyranid CAN be a playable race, but only for Chinese IP's in western servers. Bots have about the correct mindset to play a Tyranid correctly.
Make Nids an NPC to kill. Put them on floating space hulks, have them "invade" populated planets, do whatever you want so long as they are NOT made a playable race. (I play Tyranid in 40k.)
Well as far as a PvP (RvR please god) goes
the Marines would be the top level of combat but not without their weaknesses
I mean most of the space marines lumber around the battlefield shooting everything in sight with chain bolters or rocket around with heavy duty rocket packs. Then the scouts snipe from long range.
All three would be vulnerable to attacks the Chain bolter SMs would only be able to fire in one general direction So a CSM could jump them from behind or any of the other races.
Unfortunately there ARE indeed healers in WH40k on the Imperium side, Priests for IG and Apothecaries for SM then there's the SoB who just simply regen depending on how high their faith is.
And for the whole Tank, DPS, Healer, etc etc that will exist too unfortunately but probably more likely in a hybrid sense as in the WH40k Universe there's not a TRUE Archetype to anything.
ASMs may have chain swords but they also have bolters SMs can get up close and personal even though they have bolters and heavy chain bolters.
Basically the BEST Way to see what WH40k MMO MIGHT be like is to play DoW2 as unlike DOW the squads are in 3s and can level up gaining new skills every so often.
SMs would be the Tanks they can take a licking and keep on kicking, They're this way in the fluff and I sure hope they're this way in game but as in all MMOs just because you have HIGH HP doesn't necessarily indicate you have superior armor and arnaments.
IG relied on Strength in Numbers but I think in the MMO they'd be more tactics bound and agile since they're not confined by Super Armor. Plus they have a variety of weapons and ranges to use.
The Eldar on both sides have archetypes to tackle any challenge and they'd be the ones to have the full stealth classes.
Orks well we know how they operate and they'd be similar to WAR's Orks but a bit more beefy and armed to the teeth with all manner of shootas 'nades and burnas plus being what they are have a seriously high Regen rate.
Chaos would be like the Space Marines in implementation but they'd have more diverse paths to follow, Should they keep their armor like their SM Bretheren or Should they gain a deeper insight into the power of chaos and become daemonic.
3 factions wouldn't work imho it's a bit too calculative
4 Factions would probably work better
Imperium/ Eldar (Though they'd be neutral towards one another)
Tau as another
Orks
Chaos/Dark Eldar (May the best malevolence win)
Necrons, Tyranids, and any other Hive Mind entity would best serve as NPCs
Sandbox design, (but can have quests as well, as long as they are more story like rather than kill 5 boars), full featured crafting system that is relevant in the game world, some form of bases/guild halls, deep faction based combat system (at least 3), large expansive world/universe to explore, preferably based on skills, (but I can deal with classes), no levels, (I hate levels anymore, especially in PVP games), player created and controlled world objectives (that are battled for and worth fighting for) and enough content to keep me playing.
Example of how not to make it : STO
Example of how to do it right: EVE
Yeah, I want it to be an old school MMO, so "encouraged grouping" is also fine by me.
Yes, this is what I had in mind too as a good starting point for this game. We'll see soon enough where they are starting. I can tell you this. Gone are my days of getting that "first impression" and if not satisfied on the direction I continue to hope that they will build in some of the things I like. If the information released here in a few weeks isn't 98-100% of what I want to hear, I'm not buying it.
I bought STO b/c of my friends and only because of them. Less than a month into I had completed all missions and the"content update" they promised basically boils down to one extra main quest that is repeatable. That reads to me I will have completed it in the first few days (depending on how long it takes them to get it running right) and then I'm back to grinding borg or grinding that mission. Sorry, no thanks. I don't like that nor do I fancy rolling alts to do the same content I've already done again.
Good God we need more sandbox games where the players are given the tools to make content and there is no waiting until the devs put new scripted content in.
Races to start : Space Marines, Ork, Chaos. These 3 can fight each other very happily. Minimum 3 factions.
Expansion stuff : Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, vehicles, space combat, crafting.
Gameplay : Adult themed just like the IP, it needs violence, bloodshed and plenty of it. Gameplay similar to Darkfall would be cool, so melee is in 3rd person, ranged is in FPS. It works really well and can translate easily to a WH40k game. Skill based progression preferred to level based, but ok either way.
Optional PvP, can skill up from PvE or PvP equally. End game MUST be PvP orientated with stronghold/planetary takeovers that give faction bonuses when acheived - kick the enemy off a contested planet and you gain the bonuses sort of thing.
Sure have some tough epic PvE encounters as well, (this is where Tyranids and Necros can play soem good parts) but players need to be somewhat forced to group up from at least mid level to get the PvE done to encourage teamplay/faction loyalty/friends and this will pretty much then auto follow into the end game PvP.
PvP however much I personally like full loot options and fairly hard PvP will not work. It needs to be quick respawns and back into battle with some minor penalties and fairly short runs back into the action but nothing too major. The action needs to be constant fighting. This was the thing that DAoC done well.
These days it is too much instance in most MMO, too easy and too single player. This is not what makes MMO work, and last for years. It needs to get back to more old school MMO roots. Todays MMO's never last long because they always cater to the ezmode crowd, then fail. Latest example is/will be STO. The only exception EVER has been WoW. Avoid making a WoW clone with a 40k skin at ALL costs. WoW is WoW. Let it be. Do something different from a 2nd rate WoW clone!
WAR showed how NOT to do it, by forgetting everything that was epic about DAoC, trying to aim for a WoW crowd and failing utterly to deliver, despite some decent ideas.
In summary I would like to see an adult/violent world, and based off the good bits of past great MMO like DAoC and Darkfall, with the intuitve interfaces of a game like WoW, customisation options of a game such as EvE for wep loadouts and system boosts/configurations, guild/alliance options well executed, PvE AI from Darkfall (which is brilliantly done right from the start)EXCELLENT chat options, leaning to the more difficult side of things instead of easier as far as progression is concerned, DAoC type Battlegrounds as you level up before progressing to end game PvP, NO or VERY LITTLE in the way of stuns/holds, Zero tolerance of cheats and gold spammers right from day 1, and actually enforce it vigourously with proper bans not the half assed attempts mostly done these days, regular communication and updates, anticipate a huge initial audience and get the server hardware to cope with it, a lengthy closed/open beta period to get things more right than wrong, and cover it all with Warhammer 40k goodness, lore and atmosphere. No in game pay as you go crappy shops, just get a proper expansion out, yeah we will happily pay for them if they are good, and screw the XBox generation don't dumb things down for them in an MMO, it ruins them totally and they never stick around for long anyway. PC MMO designed from the ground up.
Do most of that and I will happily pay double the normal monthly MMO fee, I would pay £15-£20 british sterling a month for a decent modern MMO coated in 40k goodness so would most others I know if it is any good. We WANT and NEED a decent Warhammer MMO for the 21st centuary that re-captures the things that old school MMO's kept you playing them for years -good gameplay and great community.
The more I read up, the more it looks like people want what old EQ did, actually use your skills to level em up, want to cast a spell, do it a lot in order for it to work. Want death to mean something, make it to when you die you can actually lose a level. Sure don't need to go to the extremes of EQ, but hell im starting to miss it somewhat from what I am reading from what people want in MMO's hehe.
It's going to be interesting to see how they do it, I won't condemn them if they only do 2 factions, but im sure most of us know that 3 would be better. But if they do do it that way, we won't see much at launch I'm afraid, but as long as they keep the updates coming that puts more content in the game without having to wait for an expac they can make it work. And of course they can't do what Mythic did, promise this this and this, and then 1 week to release, cut it /sigh
I don't get something, if in the lore (and I know nothing of it) the races fight against anyone including themselves, and ally at times with anyone including themselves, then what's the problem? Can't they just create like 3 or 4 factions and then let the players choose which faction they want to belong to? So if you don't like your faction, just jump ship. You'll have several factions, each with all races and classes in them.
Maybe make it so that certain factions won't accept certain races. Like if humans hate chaos, then no chaos will be able to ally himself with humans. Just saying chaos and humans, I don't know how the races work in the actual lore.
Sorry you dont DRIVE a dreadnought if you are one of the elite few that a chapter deems worthy when you are dead or good as they may intern your body in a walking coffin known as a dreadnought. If they allow people to just drive them like cars im out, some lore is just paramount.
Anyone who says a WH40k MMO should not be PvP focused does not understand what is behind the universe.
WH40k is only about conflict. Conflict does not happen between AI controlled mobs, its between players.
You have to understand, a WH40k MMO is built because of the lore behind it. And the lore, like my last post, dictates it to be PvP oriented. Its about the conflict between humanity living in a universe with many alien races trying to exterminate them and others for various reasons. And players are playing humanity and other living beings of the universe so for those sides to have conflict, there MUST be PvP.
PvP has to be the center piece for the game. To do anything else would insantly fail by default.
Also, since we're on the subject of making wishes, please for the love of god, don't do healbitches in this game. I beg of you. The entire tank/heal/dps thing REALLY got old by now. This whole reliance on healers bullshit that's been going on in these games just has to go.
------------------------------------
Amen to that. I think at the minimum if they do go with heal bots they should be like Global Agenda's Robotics class. Healing is a support thing that is part but only a fraction of what they do. I find that people tend to bring their "A" game more with a robotics as the only healing class because its not an infinite "fix fix fix". All of a sudden, strategy comes to the forefront. Its amazing.
I would add in just one more point that would really help make a Warhammer 40K game memorable.
Allow the players to witness/play a completely new chapter of 40K lore created by Gamesworkshop (so it's official) through the game.
Imagine being able to play through something the Horus conspiracy and seeing how it unfolds as a Space Marine or other 40K warrior.
I think that would make it far more engaging than the never-ending, never-changing setting that Mythic's Warhammer game is forced to maintain because they can't have major changes like permanently removing Karl Franz or the like.
Plus it would let the online players feel more connected to the table-top games knowing they witnessed a new part of the lore and story that has been developing for decades.
Sigh, this is all wrong.
I think Warhammer 40k SHOULD be PVE centric, focusing on the tough Space Hulk battles vs tyranids, small scale war action against various factions.
Enable larger 20+ man raids, and 5-6 man content, do away with all this stupid balance for PvP, its not what draws most people.
Warcraft rules cause of its massive PVE, not cause it has some pvp crap in it. Splitting into 3 factions is even worse, diluting the player base and making tons of problems for balance and getting enough people on each side to get players.
In the beginning EVERYONE in warhammer was Chaos, cause they had cooler units, it had NOTHING to do with player balance.
But I guess they are gonna make YET another PvP centric mmo, despite the fact that PvE is what REALLY sells mmo's.
im hoping for is..
races.. Orkz, eldar, imperium, chaos.
gotta be proffesions. maby like engineer , trap makers?, trap reversal?, weapons and armor makers but not legendary things. Well something like that.
Class system- something were you start of normal and progress and choose a path you want to take. like a branch thing.
----- assault marine?
Normal space marine----- Terminator?
----- Devastator?
------Tactical marine?
No healers.. WE DO NOT NEED HEALERS!!!!! Only TECH REPAIR MEN who are able to fix broken tanks.
PVP- No automatic target. Free for ALL. NO Battlegrounds!!!!!!!! All open World!!! 24 hour all round time like Wow. This will allow Night fights and other elemental terrain to take place on the battlefield. DEEP STRIKING but make it very balanced!!!!! Respawn points are close too cities, towns, Guild space hulks or Npc Space hulks. If the planet is been taken over by the enemy respawn points will be on the Npc or guild space hulks.
Guilds-To Drive a tank or fly an airplane in battle you need to be in the guild and earn a high enough rank with the guild masters permission to be one. Only a certain amount of people in the guild though. Like 4 tank drivers, 4 Air pilots and 3 Transport drivers and guild master is the driver of the guild space hulk. (Each guild)
The trainers will be in the city or in the guild/npc space hulk.
guild master- rules the guild space hulk or puts the guild money where ever they need it like tanks, airplanes, drop pods and etc.
guild space hulks have to be bought at either the city or the npc space hulk. Npc space hulk are the mother of all the armies space fleet.
Pve but has to looks very war like.
Also there should be turrets, anti aircraft weapons, artillery cannons and destroyable buildings. :D
Those are my ideas on the game.
Being dogmatic only works if one speaks with some form of authority. Authority coming from knowledge, subject-matter expertise, or position of power (which was first obtained via the others). Digression, digression.
The title of the column was what a 40k MMO would need to get right. The title isn't 'what arbitrary MMO release should aim for in order to sell'. This is an IP with a *huge* pre-existing fanbase. It will sell based off its merits, not off some cookie-cutter formulae approach. The discussions here-in show how passionate, how deep, the 40k universe can be.
What history has proven, WoW included, is that you first start with the fanbase that made the IP popular to begin with. The details of implementation can be hashed out later, but they better not fly in the face of what got you there in the first place.
Sorry to burst some of you guys' bubbles, but Vigil already stated that this will not be a first person shooter/3rd person shooter and is sticking to being an rpg.
I hope the gameplay is more like what it looks like Relic is doing with Warhammer 40k: Space Marine but on a Grander scale.
I personally hope it's an action based MMORPG where you go in blasting your targets and hacking away chainsword/powersword in hand not unlike darksiders: wrath of War (AKA 'The Legend of God of Warhammer 40k'), but more MMO friendly.
We can count on a few things coming from Vigil and Joe Madureira. They are as followed.
Rediculously detailed armor.
One incredibly savage and twisted gameworld. (See Darksiders)
Over-the-top dynamic animations and action.
And here is a quote concerning Character customization.
PCG: What are the player customization options? Can a player design their own Space Marine Chapter or Ork Clan?
JM: We have a very robust system for creating distinctive looking characters - and of course, it wouldn’t be Warhammer 40,000 without tons of stuff hanging off your character, including weapons, scrolls, chains, books, medals, and what have you! I hate to say this without showing images to back it up, but I feel like we are going to have the coolest looking characters of any MMO, ever. Of course that isn’t all that hard to achieve being that everything in Warhammer 40,000 is over-the-top badass! Once we begin releasing images, feel free to call me on that remark.
I just hope they focus on a few things and do them incredibly well. I'm thinking gunfire will play out a lot like Gears of War without having to manually aim, in that you select a target, and dive behind some cover, and when you fire or activate a power, you pop up and start spraying. Hopefully Like an Un-failed Tabula Rasa with a sticky cover system.
I think they can break down the Races into 3 factions.
Imperium - IG, SM, WH/DH
Xeno - Eldar, Tau, Orkz
Chaos - Chaos SM, Daemons, Dark Eldar (or Possibly broken down by which Chaos God)
Alternative Chaos - Nurgle, Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Khorne
Reasoning:
The Eldar are a very crafty and Cunning Race, having the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. It's speculated and has been hinted that The Tau Ethereals are Eldar creations and are responsible for Tau Technology and how they've advanced so quickly. The Eldar are also the ones who guided the Orkz into the Imperium of man thus causing the Armageddon Scenario. However, if it came to social interaction, there would be very little of it between the 2.
The Imperium is obvious.
Chaos is fairly obvious as well, with the exception that the Dark Eldar will attack and pillage anything
I to am wondering what role the individual player will take. I am thinking they may turn the name guild into chapters or hordes for Orks sake. I am very excited by the development of this game howevere, can't wait to see more details at E3.
I hope imperial guard make the cut.
I think the resounding opinion is that 80% of the Imperium better make it.
I think a revolving check and balance 4 faction system would work well for WH40k with the races I outlined earlier
Tau Fire Warrior > Non-Assault Marine > Eldar Guardian > Chaos Cultist
Chaos Obliterator > Tau Crisis Suit > Ork Killa Kan > Dark Elf Raider
full circle sort of dealings, Also as far as races...everybody in all at once none of this namby pamby bullcrap about expansion races.
Everybody available all up front with Their core homeworlds
IG - Mordian (Puts them closer to the action fighting Orks)
SM - Macragge and Parmenio
Tau - T'au
Orks - Space Hulk above Parmenio with Secondary above Mordian
Eldar - Craftworld Alaitoc (Putting them closer to the action fighting off Chaos)
Chaos - Eye of Terror (Which in turn would put them quite near the Eldar)
Dark Eldar - (at the end of the darkest reaches of the Webway) Commorragh
Dark Eldar and Chaos would start out fighting each other and themselves.
Arena style for the DE and just all out epeen fighting with the forces of Chaos for who's the bigger badass.
This game will have to be pretty high up on the restriction ratings as to be closer to the WH40k Lexicons of Fluff it'd be pretty gruesome and bloody.
Firstly being a Space Marine should be a player aspiration, Imperial Guard should be the closest you get to that at the start of the game. People should defiantly not be able to create there own Space Marine Chapters, unless you want to see “Toilet Seats of the Emperor’s Throne” as a Space Marine guild. Players should be able to form a regiment of the Imperial Guard, a Chapter of Ministorum Battle Brothers, a Cabal of Inquisitors etc.
5 sides would be great, but let’s keep things realistic and stick to 3 sides. There is no need to have Chaos siding with Orcs or Eldar with Tau. Imperial versus only two other sides would be fine.
The OP asked how you grow and mature, you start as a member of a Planetary Defence Force, you graduate to the PvP realms as a Imperial Guardsman, you master the PvP realms to become a Space Marine.
There is huge scope here for a RPG side that is not just Guardsman point and shoot. Under the patronage of a local Inquisitor you could have a great questing RPG MMO. You then graduate to the RvR as a Imperial Guardsman, then on to Space marine.
If they go a more Planentside shooter route quite happy with that too, but make Space Marines something we have to play to achieve, not just handed to us on a plate when we first log in.
The chance to play in a Speed Freaks clan with my mates.....count me in.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
>>
Combat Interface
The big question here is does the First Person Shooter mentality apply? <snip>
An FPS interface may not keep players involved long enough to put in the hours on an MMO.
<<
That's so not true. Planetside was a MMOFPS, and it was easy to play for 3-4 hours at a time. The reasons were simple - we were fighting for definite gains for our side ("move the map" was the terms), we were fighting together, and we were fighting continuously to make progress.
It's difficult to log out when you are fully engaged like that. You really WANT to stay in and get that tower back so your entire side has a closer spawn point, or the enemy side doesn't and is forced back to using mobile stations to spawn - which you can blow up- or whatever other fight du jour was on. Base/tower assaults and defenses, bridge battles, field battles between the bases, commando raids to take down gens/spawn tubes, ghost hacks to open up new fronts - the variety of things you did kept the game ever interesting.
If WH40k gives each side simple, clear objectives with simple, clear gains to be had, and allow for variety in how you can achieve them, I predict they will do very well on the FPS side.
If they don't, the only people who will play are the ones whos rewards are gained from their kill counter. These are the same players who endlessly jump ship for the next adrenaline rush, and it's a mistake to try to form a long-term relationship with people with short interest spans.
Maybe they should have a good look how well planetside handled vechicles with multiaple people riding in them. Even tho the game is old, they did have alot of good ideas to handle mech/air wars.
Wait a minute... *when* could Orks and Chaos really cooperate?
EDIT: Omit *when*
Most of the replies here revolve around combat, PvE or PvP, and that's fine. WAR basically limited itself to combat and for that reason and because the combat was meaningless and unbalanced it failed.
So whatever they do, they need to give ppl alternative gameplay-mechanics when they don't want to fight. Combat is good and everything, but sometimes i just want to chill, do something else while being in my favorite MMO, improve on my char beyond the range of items and armour.
Give me alternatives, give me plenty of meaningful stuff to do and a truly persistent world our actions can shape and modify. Explore the lore beyond just using it as a backdrop for quests.
Ppl still eat, drink, wear clothing, indulge in entertainment. I want dark bars on vast space ships or i want to learn how to make the best neuro-implants there are. Let me distill alcohol and sell it to the latest recruits who want to drown their latest nightmares come true. Let me manufacture battle drugs or soothing drugs, or halucinative drugs. Or better let me be the high-tech cook. Inventing new food surrogates with all sorts of effects. Give me some recipes, make them modular, let me combine them to come up with something new.
The devs need to think of what ppl do in this setting when they don't fight and kill each other. I can play a shooter only for some hours a day, we haven't heard of anyone yet who collapsed from exhaustion because he played too much CS. If a company wants players to stay in their game 24/7, they need to give them more than just combat and combat centric gameplay.
They need to give them more than just a WAR, they need to give them a world.
I suggest you to document a lot better before writing a pile of rubbish like this.
This is a good start http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page .
I suggest you to document a lot better before writing a pile of rubbish like this.
This is a good start http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page .
Thanks for your informative reply. I really don't know where to start answering your criticism, hmm? Maybe you tell me first what you think constitutes the rubbish?
Thanks for the link though, but to point it out, that wiki is only concerned with the tabletop, there is also a RPG, you know that, no? So while the tabletop naturally is only concerned with combat, the RPG is not.
Looking forward to hear from you in more than two sentences.
The enthusiastic responses here show how hard it will be to please everyone regardless of what they do.
That said, for me a couple things will be key:
1. First and foremost - FUN; yes it needs progression, lore, immersion and all that...but is it fun to play? No one would mind the "grind" if it was entertaining. This is something that WAR seriously missed out on. The BGs were fun....the public areas and pve were one of the most boring grinds around.
2. Second only to fun is LORE: they really need to get the look, feel and atmosphere of the game right or all us W40k purists will rip them to shreds.
3. Multiple factions - doesn't matter if they start small (like 2-3)...but keep the faction war system OPEN ENDED so that Imperials can fight Orcs, Orcs can fight Eldar who can fight Tau etc....free for all, not the IDIOTIC forced alliances from WAR.
4. Tied with 3 really is that they get PvP right, it HAS to be there and it has be important and done well.
Lastly, and this is really more of a prayer than a realistic hope: They need to get CHAOS right! Chaos has to be intermingled with and the flip side of the Empire. If I cannot be a chaos cultist in an Imperial city or an inquisitor hunting them, they got it wrong. If I cannot be a loyal imperial who slowly goes bad and turns to chaos, they got it wrong.
PS as the previous poster mentioned I also agree there has to be MORE than just combat. so maybe #5 on the essentials list is crafting (better than the bad joke in WAR!); adeptus mechanicus, snotlings...rogue traders :)
I have been waiting years for this MMO. Lots of us have. I've been playing 40K since "blue book" which was the first version of the ruleset for tabletop, and since Meridian 59 came out have been fantasizing about a 40K MMO. Gamesworkshop has an incredible IP that could really go far. For me, all they need to do is give me the LORE that I want, and some half decent gameplay with rich character story, and I'm good. I could care less about endgame. I've never cared about endgame in an MMO, which to me, sees to be the dumbest thing in the world. The point of a sandbox isn't to "finish" or "beat" anything. But then, I don't have the attention span of a ferret.
Thanks for your informative reply. I really don't know where to start answering your criticism, hmm? Maybe you tell me first what you think constitutes the rubbish?
Thanks for the link though, but to point it out, that wiki is only concerned with the tabletop, there is also a RPG, you know that, no? So while the tabletop naturally is only concerned with combat, the RPG is not.
Looking forward to hear from you in more than two sentences.
Well no, lexicanum isn't relative only to the TT game (actualy i've never see anything about the TT game) but also to lore and everything that comes around warhammer 40k universe.
Famous and infamous character, history of the Imperium and other faction and so on.
And for answering your other question, i don't spend time arguing with someone that doesn't know nothing about a particular subject.
Because the task that you suggest in the first post usually are accomplished by servitor (at least in the imperium, other races like orks simply doesn't give a shit about those things).
Who wouldn't be a drooling lobotomized bunch of flesh?
I would rather see a Warmachine or a Shadowrun MMO anyday of the week than a 40k MMO
Gamesworkshop/Citadel cant even keep a ongoing set of rules or lore for the game. I hate to see what happens to the computer version
40k was the biggest rip off game of all the table top games ever made. I mean they would make entire army lists completely obsolete like every 3 years. I know I wasted way to much money on the game only to watch models become unplayable. army lists no longer composable. I would rather dump a load of cash into the sewage than waste my money on this game.
Which is funny because i still like Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
To the people screaming "NO HEALERZ!":
Apothecary
Mad Dok
etc.
Like yourself? I really have no idea how you got this seriously twisted view of the Dark Millennium.
Ever heard of TECHMARINES? Yeah they are all drooling lobotomized idiots...right or the Adeptus Mechanicus? (who are not servitors, btw)...read any of the fiction and there are endless references to master crafted this or that, specialized gear and custom armors. Ever think that perhaps an 'Eldar CRAFT WORLD' makes things? Bonesingers? or the Tau tech castes? Even the ORKS have Mekboyz and the like....
So please, crawl back under whatever shroud of colossal ignorance made you try to dismiss crafting in a 40K universe.
Well, I've been thinking recently about how to incorporate real combat healers into 40kO without having the "cast = green bars!" feel that works with fantasy settings but does not work so well in 40k. A quite simple system could be used, involving HoT "heals" granted by using medikits with cooldowns (similar to potions but exempt from consumption rules) and ofc, the good old 'healers'.
For example, to prevent a player bleeding out from a wound (DoT damage), they could administer a blood clotting drug, which would effectively get rid of the DoT debuff. To increase a player's strength and speed, give them an adrenaline jab. To decrease their health loss/increase their toughness, feed them a handful of painkillers, as is done in actual canon lore. Not to leave out the healing part, an Apothecary or Pain Boy or Mad Dok or whoever could carry medikits which required specialist knowledge to use properly and give a better HoT than standard medikits.
Remember also that healers in 40k are not helpless in combat as they are in other MMOs. An Apothecary is not some random civilian brought in to tend the sick, this is an 8ft tall superhuman bred from childhood to be a warrior who battles for the survival of Mankind. Whatever his title is, he's still a killing machine. Same goes for Mad Doks - that's still a bloody big Ork, and possibly even more violent than your average greenskin! Farseers too, if they were to be a support class, are some of the most powerful psykers in the entire universe. All of these are not to be trifled with, at any rate.
P.S.For anyone who's reading this who's from warhammer40konline.net this is Bloodeye ;)
Like yourself? I really have no idea how you got this seriously twisted view of the Dark Millennium.
Ever heard of TECHMARINES? Yeah they are all drooling lobotomized idiots...right or the Adeptus Mechanicus? (who are not servitors, btw)...read any of the fiction and there are endless references to master crafted this or that, specialized gear and custom armors. Ever think that perhaps an 'Eldar CRAFT WORLD' makes things? Bonesingers? or the Tau tech castes? Even the ORKS have Mekboyz and the like....
So please, crawl back under whatever shroud of colossal ignorance made you try to dismiss crafting in a 40K universe.
Well played. Saves me the page and half wall of text I was about to post.
Want to stay true to the lore of 40K and have space marines be more powerful then other races?
Make them an unlock - take a Gaurdsman to a certain point in game (level or skill-based or exp/kills) and then you get ONE unlock for a space marine. You then up your Guardsman to a space marine - or create a new marine.
And then what? Still unfair?
Permanent Death.
Then you get a reflection of the lore - they will always be outnumbered and once they are down - they are gone.
My $.02
Perhaps you could unlock a Space Marine, but then you'd have to have Unlocks for each faction.
Also, on the subject of lore, and if you intended to make your Guardsman into a Marine that would be lore-breaking - Space Marines are selected from their recruiting worlds early in their teens so the organ implants can take effect and grow with the body.
For me WAR40KMMO needs to get right:
Graphics:
WAR Online failed in this deparment. They chosed a simpler version or graphics and in my opinion it looked ugly. We need this game to fight side by side with games like AION or the upcoming TERA. It needs to be gorgeous! We want to see the beautiful Eldar, the complexity of TAU, the caos with Chaos Marines, etc.
Gameplay:
For this game i would use what other companies are already implementing. You have your main Character and you are followed by 2 or 3 companions, just like every troop in the WAR40K games. This has been made by Star Trek Online, Lotro (in some way with the skirmishes and the captain herald) & its being developed by Bioware for SWTOR. We need to feel we are in a war and that we have an army following us.
I don't want to see a FPSMMO. Its true that WAR40K has a lot of range unit but don't forget that almost all troops are equipped for melee combat.
Lots of MMO have a lot of ranged classes, and this does not break the balance with melee ones. You just need to give resources to the classes so they can fight each other. Example: melee classes have better defenses against ranged ones, haver some root abilities, etc. Its not hard to do if you do it right.
PVP:
You don't need to have factions to do it right. Lineage 2 offered 4 classes each with different motivations and goals. Elves, Dark Elves, Orcs and Humans, and all of them could fight each other, even them selfs. I didn't liked the fact that you could attack someone from your same race, but this can be easily fixed, only allowing pvp among different races. But what the heck, even if we have the factions the article described it wouldn't be so bad.
I don't like open pvp because it makes the game stressful, you have to be watching over your shoulder all the time, and this only makes the game less interesting for casual players. If you only have 1 or 2 hours a day to play, you don't want to do it in fear of someone coming to kill you every time you are doing something.
If we get pvp zones, there must be one or several for different lvls. 1-10, 11-20, etc. Its not fair only high lvl characters can enjoy the pvp.
The pvp system from WAR was nice in my opinion. You could jump into the fight at lvl 1 and still feel of some use for your group. The multiple zones for each lvl of pvp was nice.
Progression:
It has to be quest based. Everyone except Korean ppl hates Grinding for progression. Lotro has a very good quest based progression system. The WAR game didn't do that bad in this department, but please we don't want to kill 1000k enemies all day to gain a lvl.
Also, questing has to mean something. Not only go and kill 10 enemies and come back for a reward. Some story would be nice, to actually feel you are making a difference.
Reclaimable outpost for each faction or race could be nice, specially in the pvp areas. We want motivation for going out there to fight. We want some kind of reward. Example: We take the outpost and we must hold it for x amount of time before reinforcements arrive, and after that we get some quest from that outpost.
And finally, we want all races, not just some of them, we want them all: TAU, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Orcs, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Tyranids and Necrons.
Why not get creative with this IP. Take aspects of the RTS games and plug them in. Take aspects from recent popular fps/action games and plug them in.
Generic MMO rules won't work
The whole universe is built on wide scale war billions of beings fighting billions of beings. Controlling one person makes no sense. Individuals don't fight wars. Also doesn't fit with the table top game.
Towns filled with morons paying you to be part of their clan doesn't seem like it would make sense in WH40K. Nor would an auction house filled with farmed goods and out of control economies.
Areana systems and dueling make no sense - friendly small battles for points or phat lootz or fighting allies to within an inch of life isn't something that screams WH40K.
Towns people that need odd jobs done would be ridiculous.
Quests that require X amount of something gathered or killed would be ridiculous. No space marine commander would say, kill 10 orks then you can come back here for a new bolter.
The list can go on and on...
What should happen...
Player Creation, Factions, guilds
Player Creation
Players should control a Fireteam of 5 members.
All 5 members can be chosen from a list of classes.
All 5 members are customized individually by the player.
They player then chooses which member is the NCO. That toon gets a boost in stats.
You then choose which Chapter, Ork clan, Tau clan etc... Further alters your stats.
Once you achieve a certain rank or level, you have the option of becoming a specialist, ie inquisitor, librarian, harliquin etc...
Guilds
Very few guilds in any game don't get more than a Company's worth of players if they are lucky. From what I can recall from my wow days, most guilds on my server only ever had Platoon Strength and rarely had 10 people on.
Guilds would be the equivalent of Platoons or Companies. They would have to align with a Chapter. members would have to switch to that chaper/clan etc.. if they were not originally aligned.
Guilds would have hard caps on membership.
Guilds would be given allocation points from the Chapter/Clan/Caste etc... From completing "raid content" or larger scale content for the accquisition of high power vehicles, transports etc...
Allocation points could be lost if guild level events fail. Sort of like the RTS, losing parts of the map.
Guilds would have a hard cap on heavy weapons or vehicles they could employ at a given time.
Factions
Forces of the Imperium
Imperial Guard · Space Marines · Sisters of Battle
Forces of Chaos
Chaos Space Marines · Dark Eldar
Alien races
Eldar · Tau ·
NPC Aliens, Enemies to all Factions - probable story lines, endgame content
Tyranids · Necrons · Orks
EXP, Leveling and Spells/Skills
I think it would be interesting to see a S.P.E.C.I.A.L. System in place,
Primary Statistics - Chosen from character creation screen - Can only change with items
* Strength
* Perception
* Endurance
* Charisma
* Intelligence
* Agility
* Luck
Derived Statistics - effected by items, based on Primary stats
* Action Points/energy/power
* Critical Chance
* Damage Resistance
* Fire Resistance
* Health
* Melee Damage
* Poison Resistance
* Radiation Resistance
* Unarmed Damage
Skills - Chosen at start - can be increased through training, items
Big Guns
Energy Weapons
Explosives
Medicine
Melee Weapons
Repair
Hacking
Small Guns
Sneak
Unarmed
Speech
Perks - Recieved at different level intervals
Obviously would coincide with WH40K terminology
Leveling occurs through survival of battles, use of skills, discovery of map.
I also think you should have access to all your classes powers at level 1. They would all be weak since you would be a new recruit and have battle experience. Your powers would not be something you would allocate points to. They would improve through use in combat.
Example,
Combat and movement skills improve as they are used. Ducking and firing will improve coresponding skills, Firing from cover will improve those skills.
or
Spells/powers, improve/upgrade if used. eg.100 grenade kills gives you improved accuracy or crit and so on.
***These skills automatically improve through use.
Game play
Each member can be controlled individually or the group can be given commands. Switching members should be seamless.
Tactical overhead view, 3rd person/over the shoulder and aiming reticle/down the barrel
All units regenerate health/power over time. All units have rudimentery healing abilties, medics can revive and group heal and have quick heals.
Squads with rounded out members have bonuses added ie, 1 heavy weapons, 1 sniper, 1 medic, 2 "riflemen"
Squads with 5 of the same also get bonuses as they become specialist squads - as seen in the RTS.
Squads with poor balance may start off with handicaps although may gain advantages in higher levels
No jumping or dancing - obsiticals have to be climbed over when approached.
Collision detection is a must.
Steal the reloading mechanic from GOW.
Steal the grenade mechanic from GOW.
Create a trick system/break/combo where you can gain temporary boosts to skills or spells if you get a head shot or multiple kill. Think of something your good at. You inevitable create away to do it better or improve the process or make it easier.
Deformable battle field terrian should be in the game.
Improve the squad controls from Mass Effect 2 and DA:O
Sniping would be extremely difficult. Easy head shots would distort power dynamics.
Cover system, height advantage/ tactical advantages should factor into damage calculation.
** Cover and AI squad members that use cover will be crucial to the game.
** AI switching between melee and ranged at appropriate times is also crucial.
Items and Loot
All armor and weapons are standard with standard attributes.
Armor is classed Light Medium, heavy, super heavy, affects movement speed, carrying capacity, damage reduction.
Armor choices can lock or unlock skills. IE can't dash in heavy or super heavy.
Weapons are Classed Melee, Ranged - Short, Medium, Long, AOE and are sub classed Light medium, heavy and super for damage.
Items gain exp the more battles they are in, gaining bonuses.
Items gain stats based on how you play. Melee play styles get melee bonuses added etc...
All items have internal sockets for upgrade components that can be interchanged to effect stats.
All items have extenal plates for upgrades to armor, shielding, new skill unlocks, (wrist mounted rockets, wrist bolter, scope, sliencer, grenade launcher etc...)
Eventually they can be named and become legendary. Can be traded to the chapter/clan/caste for unlocking something special. - Squad vehicles, Special ability, character upgrade to some very rare command character with powerful special abilities.
All items degrade over time and would need to be repaired in the field or back at base.
Field repairs can be done by scavenging.
Only components can be crafted. These components can be placed in item slots.
Money
No money -
Loot dropped by enemies can be taken may or may not be useable by your race or class.
Loot can also be trophies with bonuses - Trophies of significance can be traded for squad upgrades or rank upgrades
Loot can be traded into requisition officers at bases for study by that race's scientists. In return you get Requisition credits for good service in the field. These credits are used for your squad to get upgrades for weapons, armor, plugins, addons, biological boosts from the armaments, medical, and technology officers.
PVP
Open world pvp at all times.
Preset battle grounds that change every few months. Persistent score keeping. Make it a real battle. Every time you enter you are essentially joining a fight in progress.
I'm sorry but neither Orks nor Dark Eldar fall under the Forces of Chaos. I recently had a discussion considering the Dark Eldar aspect of that group and I have come to the conclusion that they are not Chaotic. Sure, they're seemingly random, but they and the Eldar are far more likely to ally than with Orks and especially with Chaos, their most hated enemy (Slaanesh anyone?). Similarly, Orks are definitely not Chaos. They worship Gork and Mork and that is all. They do not have any contact or draw any power from the Warp and so will generally never even have the chance to be tainted.
I think I would be far happier seeing four factions at the beginning - Imperium, Eldar, Chaos and Orks, than forcing them to group together. I agree, however, that it makes sense to have Tau and Eldar together if any alliances are forged, because the Tau are basically 40k's "good" faction, as far as good goes in the grimdark future. Plus, there's the rumour of the Eldar creating the Ethereals and therefore allowing the Tau to advance in their tech very quickly for such a young race... but anyway back on topic - I just don't think faction forcing will work at all. Nothing in the 40k universe is permanent, there is only war ;)
Then I would take the orks out as a playable class and have them as the lowliest of mobs you face, aside from monsters, animals, daemons and lesser aliens. They could also be nicely incorporate into story lines as the constant nuisance to the other races.
Couldn't you spin it so the chaos gods decide to put differences aside in an effort stop some sort of universal threat like the Necrons or the Tyranids?
So I was thinking about how they can do this last night and I wrote a bunch of notes down. (And then I got into a mad brainstorm of how I would fix WAR which devolved into listing everything that is broken with it... its not pretty!)
I came to the conclusion that it really would be best if they did work from DoW2 as a base. You would be reduced to one squad which would allow you to focus on its upgrades to give them more depth and customization (the more you personalize the units, the more the player is attached to them)
I have some questions regarding some things I came up with:
Were there any female Space Marines? It became apparent to me that maybe if you wanted to play a female, that the Sisters of Battle would be "mirror classes" of male Space Marines. I know it would be more dev time but if they could give the "mirror classes" a little twist, it would work better than cookie cutter copies and fit with the lore better.
Likewise, the Eldar units seemed to have some gender specifics. Are there male Farseers or Banshees? Harlequins? Wraiths, Warp Spiders, Rangers and Guardians seem like they can be either male or female.
If you were doing a small squad based approach could you mix and max gender units? Like say, it is possible to pair a Seraphim commander with Assault Marine squad mates? Or if you were just mixing genders, would it be ok to have a male Ranger commanding female Ranger squad mates?
On thing I think would be key with the squad mates is having them being unlockable that level up with you. I think it would be better than micromanaging each and every facet of them. As you commander levels up, they unlock a bigger variety of squad mates to take along with them with more and more varied support abilities. Your commander is still able to switch between terminator armor and regular armor or any combination of weapons allowed by their archetype, but the squad mates will match the base armor type of you commander and be able to choose between the stock weapons available to the squad's archetype. For instance, your commander could wield a 2 handed hammer or chain sword and shield and your squad could wield the same. I also like the option of mixing in ranged support for a melee focused commander. They could be equipped with a sword and bolter or your squad mates could be melee support for your dual bolter pistol based commander. I think this will add a lot of replay value and no two players squads need to be cookie cutter or flavor of the month.
I just looking for corrections or specifics found in the lore. Or we can have discussions on despite the fact that they don't exist in the lore, its probable they could exist.
Lore that goes back to 1988. Heck yeah we're picky fans!! I was old enough to appreciate the lore back then. I'm crotchety now and don't want them abusing the lore I've grown to love in my adulthood.
I bet more than half the people on these forums were "born" around the time Warhammer 40k started up. Keep in mind the fantasy side had been going for a while when they chose to start up the space version.
They have a serious set of shoes to fill.
Mythic failed miserably and made me lose all respect for a company, up until WAR that, I actually liked.
Picky was also the trekkie fans and look what happened to their game. Ive been snooping around though and i hear the dev team is going to try and keep it sacred as much as possible, however Ive heard that line before for other IPs. I have to see the end product to make a call but I will never get hyped again over any good IP thats turned into a MMO again.
Unlocking is fine. Starting out IG and then working ones way up to a spot in the Inquisition or Space Marines. But perma death isn't going to make it in the modern MMO world. WAY too small a demographic would even tolerate that. Not to mention that if their main focus is on PvP, they are going to niche themselves from the start.
I don't want this game to be typecast into the stereotypical MMO. No DPS/Tank/Healer classes. By removing healer classes all together, they can focus on engaging gameplay and not be put on a leash or Healer dependency.
Healing should go as far as Medkits/Stimpacks/Trauma Packs that you use while taking cover. Reviving fallen comrades should be an ability awarded to Squad leaders/Field Commanders, much like reviving Fallen Teammates in Gears of War.
Healers take strategies out of everything. With healers involved, there becomes 1 strategy. Kill the healer. By eliminating this dependency, you open up a wide range of strategies and gameplay options.
I'm really hoping for an Action-MMORPG as opposed to a standard RNG MMO. I hope skill and utilizing your character well matters more than gear.
As much as I'd love it to be a first person/3rd person Shooter MMO, it won't happen. That's already been confirmed. The most I can hope for is that they take elements from games like gears of war and the such.
Sticky Cover is a Must. Flushing enemies from cover with Grenades before charging in, Power sword in hand will be incredible.
I hope they stick to the traditional 40k tabletop stat lines, slightly altered due to translation to MMO.
Ballistic Skill, Weapon Skill, Strength, Toughness, (Dex/Agil which represents Speed/Reflex instead of Initiative), Wounds(health), (No need for Attack stat), and Leadership/Morale. Armor is obviously its own thing.
As well, I hope character progression goes as followed, through ranking up, changing job/careers.
Eg.
Scout Marine > Assault Marine/Tactical Marine/Devastator > Seargant > Sternguard Vets/Vanguard Vets/Terminator/Honour Guard member> etc.. etc.. etc..
Or in case of Eldar.
Path of Seer
Bonesinger > Warlock > Spiritseer > Farseer?
Path of Warrior
Guardian > Aspect Warrior > Exarch > Autarch/Phoenix Lord?
The possibilities are endless
One thing I don't want to be, however, is the same damn thing for 60 levels +. Evolving from one class to another adds a real sense of accomplishment. being stuck in the same class/same typecast for your whole career is just stupid.
advancement through skill trees ala something like SWG where you increase your ability to use 'specials' by spending your skill points from experience.
you can learn everything there is about using a terminator suite but still can't handle the missle launcher worth damn. At some point in time if you want to re-train yourself you can.
Good article with some very relevant points, but I have to seriously disagree with your idea about factions. The W40k universe is a very violent and paranoid place. It is not uncommon to see armies of the same so called "factions" at war with one another. In my opinion the best thing Vigil could do is to have each race as a separate faction, and allow a more mix and match free for all system of PVP.
From what I'm now seeing Wh40k Would be great with a Earn as you use it and play system
If you use your Subpar Bolter long enough you could get a Plasma Pistol or Heavy Bolter if you're of the correct classification.
Having SM as a seperate faction makes sense what doesn't make sense is starting out as a Scout Marine...unfortunately they're not Super men just augmented to be superior scouts and super snipers.
Should Space Marine stay somewhat true to its fluff? Sure! But don't expect them to be super gods of war right out the gate.
Keep in mind that only the battle hardened Space Marines like Sergeants and Terminators have become so battle ready and hardened that they're off the elite status and Can and will take down hordes of Orks and tons of Xenos before being overwhelmed.
For all the people saying No no no Single person mechanics wouldn't work I argue Why do you think it wouldn't?
Early on in the game you could be put together in a squad with others kind of like an FPS Game where one person decides to lead the team to victory. It would highly encourage team play and make the game more obvious that you work as a team and nobody is their own god (After all if they thought this they'd be heretics and hunted down to be disposed of by the Inquisition).
Orks don't need food like the Imperium does and I doubt Eldar and Dark Eldar are too concerned with it since they care about the balance of things and not going extinct. Chaos...well they're far too busy serving the will of the Chaos gods to be concerned about THEIR needs. Only others besides the Imperium needing some sort of food would be Tau but as someone stated earlier they have an ENTIRE Caste system devoted to those sorts of tasks much like the Imperium with SM Servitors, Imperial Tech Priests and the like.
To the comment about Not fighting ones own faction...Well I'll agree with you to a point for IG and SM they wouldn't really fight one another unless say some rank of the IG decided to follow the Tau and serve the "Greater Good". Then the Inquisition might have to have a word with them and if they really caused problems the SM would be dispatched to Deal with said Problems.
Eldar and Tau wouldn't fight their own regardless but both would be on the same bandwagon as SM to Deal with Chaos...The Eldar aren't too fond of them from past dealings and the Tau view their ways as a complete aberration and affront to the "Greater Good" Plus as some history states some followers of Slaanesh sickend commander puretide that time so he commanded his forces to purge them in the name of the "Greater Good".
Dark Eldar WOULD indeed have arenas to fight one another it's what they do and it's one of their pleasures they indulge in on Commorragh. Orks would fight each other to see whos da bigga ork wots gonna lead us ta viktory for Gork n Mork!
Chaos pretty much hates everybody that doesn't see their point of view and I do like the idea of Chaos being able to wander around imperial cities, but I'm not sure how well that would translate into a PvP Situation without MAJOR MAJOR cutting edge coding that nobody has ever seen before.
So for the Inquisition why not just play the part and Sniff out the Heretics as NPCs and in RvR setting of Outposts on fringe worlds you could hunt down the Chaos players but they'd be hunting you as well.
The two eldar races would sooner die out than rejoin one another, The craftworld eldar are more concerned about keeping the balance in the universe and making sure the Necrons don't wipe it all out...again. The Dark Eldar of Commorragh are more concerned with who's got the biggest e-peen, indulging in pleasures, and making raids to find more slaves (Just so you know unlike their goody goody counterparts the Dark Eldar use human slaves to do their work for them while they indulge themselves)
Let's put Requisition as the flavor of Money in the game to afford upgrades or various powers (though with Chaos and Dark Eldar most of their Higher level powers would come from either killing enemies a bloodlust sort of thing or collecting souls from anything that dies)
High end game content for mostly everyone would be involved in capturing worlds from one another resulting in massive scale battles. Say the SM are fighting with the IG to claim a world for the Imperium against the Orks on one side and the forces of Chaos on the other all the while the Eldar and Dark Eldar are having it out on the far reaches of the planet doing the same.
Also I feel it would be fighting back the deathless (Necrons) and the insatiable (Tyranids)
For those that have TT Necron Armies and Tyranid Swarms I'm sorry but in MMO Land it kinda makes little to no sense whatsoever to have them playable. Necrons follow ONLY the Necron Lord of a particular Tomb World and the Tyranid Swarm is endless, limitless and works with a singular hive mind. Kinda like how it WoW you can be the Forsaken who are sentient but you can't be the Scourge and like in WAR how you cannot be undead period dot.
Graphics on the game will at least have to be DX10 compatible as anything less than at least this would look worse than the RTS in a fully 3D environs. This is also another point make the environment FULL 3D and destructible.
If some tank goes BOOM on the landscape it ought to be in pieces and in a crater.
Apparently you haven't bothered to read my posts. I have been referring to WAR. Last I checked it did not have Tyranids.
Learn to read before trolling.
No.
I believe i will troll wherever and whenever and however i like.
You are correct sir.
You have the right to make yourself look as stupid as you choose.
So far you are succeeding stupendously.
Bravo....
I haven't seen this discussed yet, and I know very little about the WAR40k universe, so here's a question for you guys:
What about mounts?
Do they have them in 40k lore? Are they in the form of big transportation, like spaceships, or more personal like steeds, chariots or badass futuristic bikes?
There is a mind boggling amount of possibilities that this game can take its direction. Then again…this wouldn’t be the first game with such an opportunity to not do so well…(Warhammer Online) Don’t get me wrong, WAR was fun and all, but there’s just hardly any players and the end game became musical castles…not fun. Perhaps, the bigger the opportunity, the larger the possibility of not fullfilling that opportunity. I hope they get it really really right this time around.
They have ways to get to and from the battlefield. Some units within each faction tend to employ "mounts" as their main weapon like the galaxy famous White Scars(Think massive AT-Bikes) or Saim-Hann(Think flying Anti-Grav bikes) while they tend to be just specific units in various armies like Necron Destroyers, Space Marine Scout bikes, Eldar Shining Spears and so on.
Could they be used in game? I dunno. Maybe but I would rather have the ability to paint my armor than get a mount at the end of the day.
My list would be:
1. Equal content across the board, don't make PvP the focus of the game, if you want that, there are hundreds Scifi FPS games out there for those types of players, PvP, PvE, Crafting, Socializing should be available from lvl 1 to end content. I would like to see the game start small and make it good, then expand as necessary for all content
2. Atleast 3 factions. Mine would be:
Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar
Tyranids, Necrons, Tau
Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar
"Enemy of my enemy" that sort of thing. (I know it goes against cannon) but you have to have sides. It will not happen but I can hope.
3. Squad based characters You are the Sergeant and you have npc squad that you command. Each race would have different sizes of squads to help with balancing issues. Having 20 Space marine Commanders running in circles, in PvP would just be wrong
4. Dynamic content. Theme parks need to go away, make the player base make the decisions in the game.
5. Sandbox style laterial skill tree advancement. Pick a race and then start learning how to use skills/ weapons/ equipment and troops. Basically no lvls or classes. Learn what you want to learn for your type of game play.
also Friendly Fire = Free for all PvP so a huge NO on that one.
Space Marines DO NOT BUNNY HOP! EVER! End of rant.....
Hi all. I have been reading a great many posts under this topic, and I think we should set the record straight here.
Warhammer 40K is about squad level combat. Beginning and end of statement. You want individual characters, go play Inquisitor. The true issue is of BALANCE.
I have played Warhammer Online, and anyone who has played it for any length of time (more than 10 minutes in Nordenwatch)knows thats it is as unbalanced as it gets. I mean, let's be honest, Destro was way stronger than Order.
Lets look at the way a 40K squad is "puchased". We will use Space Marines here because everybody is familiar with them. With a Space Marine squad you get 5 Marines for so many points, call it 150. This includes a sergeant (you) and 4 troops, no upgrades or frills. Good Armor, standard weapon is the Bolter. Not the greatest weapon when moving (reduced range when moving), but deadly when a Marine can plant his feet and blaze away (Rapid Fire). For the same 150pts in the Eldar Codex you can get 10 guardians, but be able to upgrade to Black Guardians(better shooting with longer range weapons) and an Exarch (sergeant, again this is you). The balance here is that the Eldar are Fast and Fragile and can't stand up in a prolonged firefight. They rely on movement and faster shooting weapons (For those who don't know, Assault weapons always shoot same range, same number of shots) . For Orks (dear lord) which are only 4pts in the table top game compared to the Space Marines 15pts you now outnumber the Marines 3 to 1, even with a Nob (you). The balance here is that Orks suck at shooting but excell in Melee. So the number of Orks that survive the charge are at least equal to the five Marines.
I have been recently been playing STO, and I have found the Ground combat to be pretty ok. Not great, just ok. They rushed it. My squadmates are dumb as dirt, no real pathfinding to speak of, run ahead of me and get shot up; but the idea of fighting with a squad that I have "trained" and lead into combat appeals to me, just as it does to a great many of you.
Now I know you guys are gonna rip me up and down over this post. That's fine by me. This could be the greatest game yet.
Since when do Eldar Guardian Squads have Exarchs?
And no, Warhammer 40k is not about squad level combat. Dawn of War 2 might be about squad level combat, but by no means is Warhammer 40k on a squad level unless its in Kill Teams.
Balancing based on a squad and balancing based on Individuals boils down to the same damn thing, so no need to try and pull the veil down and try to make sound obscure. Whats the difference between a squad of big tough guys, and a single individual tough guy except numbers?
The MMO isn't going to be broken down into 3 phases where you move, shoot, then assault.
This should not be Dawn of War 2 in MMO format.
When you assume the Identity of a character in the game, you become SOMEONE. You are no longer an extra or just another number. Leave that 3 Orks to 1 marine crap to the NPCs. Let them flesh out the feeling of the environment. Hell, let it be like dynasty warriors where you're 1 among many, up against overwhelming odds. But the moment you take control of a squad of characters instead of personalizing your avatar, you take the character out of being a character. You're no longer experiencing the world. You're just a hand hovering over it, directing orders.
Or does it really come down to the mighty space marines not wanting to get smacked around 1 on 1 by an Ork or Eldar Guardian?
As much as I love the Fluff in the Warhammer 40k universe, it's not something to hide behind when it comes to game balancing. Look at the Translation from Fluff to Tabletop. 1 SM vs 50 Orcs (Fluff) compared to 1 Sm vs 2-3 Orcs, Tabletop. 1 on 1 balance is just taking it another step further and makes the engagement more personal.
When you're behind your character, you're not just another NPC. I don't care if it is 2 Guardians or 5 orks to 1 Space Marine in NPC fights and thats a fair fight for them. You can have them coming in waves in the background or even all around you, that's great. Players should be exceptions to that.
I hope they do what feels heroic and engaging.
No matter how you cut it, Players will always feel for themselves. From a Space marine point of view, sure, being 1 person against 3-4 guys is pretty awesome. But how would you feel if you're one of those 3 to 4 guys getting slagged? How would you feel if you brought your squad of 6 guys up against 2 SMs and got wasted time and time again? That's how people will feel and see it. They will see their squad dying while struggling to knock off even 1 Space Marine, get frustrated and quit.
And that same logic would turn against Space marines if Necron were introduced as playable, as they're superior one on one to Space marines in just about every way there is.
Balance for 1 on 1. My apologies for redundant thoughts.
Well, that would be *great*... Except for the fact that damn few MMO companies can do path finding, or even *basic* NPC squad level tactics half right. What we are likely to end up with is a typical MMO with individual players in most of the roles(different classes). NPC GAI is *quite* difficult, and there are only a few specialists(out side of university research and development groups) that are even close to doing the basics. Until that field is further developed, we are going to have to settle for what we have.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it.
Bioware had some excellent pathing in Mass Effect 2, and they really put a lot into it, and it was still a bit wonky. For an MMO, that could be quite terrible.
The other thing is that I love being a unique snowflake, as dumb as that sounds. And when I have to split it up among several characters at the same time, I find that it takes away from the experience.
Unless your comrades are more like Pets in other games. Where they're basically just another source for abilities and you are the main one. That could work I guess. But seems really redundant.
*sigh* while I love the 40K IP, I have to say I'm really nervous regarding this MMO....
The biggest problem is the massive lore-rape that will have to go down if they want to make Marines a playable "race". But seeing as EVERYBODY loves marines (famous Tabletop 40K saying: all kids play marines) they'll probably have to include them to make all the shrimp happy...
let's look at the lore facts for a moment:
A Space Marine is a 7ft tall, genetically enhanced mumakil on steroids.
A Space Marine is incredibly devout. No fear of death and all...
To prevent a 2nd Heresy incident, there are only 1000 Marines in each Chapter (although Blackies, Salas and Wolves don't give a shit about this one) and there are roughly 1000 Chapters... meaning 1.000.000 Space Marines roaming through the galaxy (Scouts, Servitors and all that doesn't count)
just as a point of comparison, that is about 3 times the headcount of the current german armed forces...
Space Marines are fighting machines. Each individual Space Marines capable of blasting dozens of enemies on his own before going down.
Space Marines are not trained farmboys. Space Marines are bred from the genepool of their chapter (which is 1 part ChapterLeader, 1 part Emperor and 1 part violence) Space Marines don't hang out in bars to relax. They don't socialize
So... after these facts how can Space Marines be in this MMO? two ways:
1. Everyone is a Space Marine! We go around in Squads and kill Xenos. Weeeee! And the motivation behind going around and killing them? BECAUSE THEY'RE XENOS! Think Tabula Rasa without Guild Fights... fuuuuuuuun -.-
2. You can play all kinds of races including Marines but for balance reasons Marines have to be just as strong as an IG Soldier or a Tau Fire Warrior... this would probably work gameplay wise but it would rape the IP to death.... remember: there is just 1 million marines out there!
Basically, if Marines are in the game, it's gonna suck... Then again I'm probably the only person who thinks it's way cooler playing Albert Average than Paul Pwnlord and everybody else loves Marines so much that you don't even ask these questions. Basically same thing that's going on over in the "Opiwahn was killed by a Giant Rat" department ;)
Imho a way better 40K MMO would have been one on a Hive World where you play "more human like" stuff like Adeptus Arbites Enforcers, Gangers and aspiring Ordo Malleus/Ordo Hereticum Agents ala Inquisitor... lots of possibilities to be had with that...
This is not trolling btw... As I said I'm a big fan of the 40K IP
Honestly, I think if they go the route of trying to make the MMO like the wargame, the game is going to fail, in an epic way.
Sure, theres a faction or two already pre-built, the Imperium (so xenophobic they devoted an entire branch of the Inquisition, lets see how well they do a long term alliance wityh xenos scum) and the Tau empire (who will work with anyone who is willing to accept the whole greater good thing). Necron's don't talk to people, they just lay the groundwork for the C'tan to eat, Nids just eat everything in sight, Orks aren't to big on alliances (they just wanna fight) and the Eldar are...well, Eldar and Chaos is, well, Chaos. All in all, no easy way to balance any kind of factional thing if your looking at the point of view of keeping it warfare based like the wargame(plenty of folks have brought up the space marines, and for them, as well as a couple other races (Tau, Eldar) its just as bad in terms of free will/time/power scale)
Honestly, I hope they take a page from Fantasy Flight Games, Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both good ways to get a 40k feel, without having to add in all the seriously complicated issues of "now how d we balance a space marine versus a regular human, or god forbid a regular tau?" They do that, I think they'd be on the right track, take a cue from CCP on doing a sandbox world (EVE is gravy that way, althoughI'm not suggesting an EVE clone) and give players more freedom and less restrictions, mix in a good dose of basic storyline, pick a corner of the galaxy that see's alot of action, and let her rip, and I think they's be doing just fine. As long as they don't jack with the lore...after almost 16 years of playing the game, and reading the lore, and even working for GW at one point, last thing I want is a few 'minor' revisions to lore (like, oh, say how space marines go from being normal goobs to superhuman killing machines just so little timmy doesn't cry because he can't be a smurf)
As much as I would love a 40K MMO, I don't think any developer could make a game that will not violate tons and tons of background fluff for game balance.
The only exception would be to do an Inquisition or Rogue Trader style game where players only see and interact with tiny portions of the galaxy and its factions. An encounter with a space marine should be a deadly affair for a whole party of adventures.
Lowly humans working with out cast aliens in border regions avoiding or helping the human Inquisition. Trading among aliens far from the view of Imperial masters. Seeking ancient artifacts and staying away from authorities who would take your hard won trophies.
Misfits of various races working together for survival. That would work.
But JOE BOB of the Ultramarines is only going to work with other space marines unless forced to do so by his superiors.
No a good dynamic.
I dont' think it'll be too difficult to balance the game on an individual level. As someone mentioned above. Everyone wants to be a unique snowflake. I'm no exception to that.
lets take a look at how troops can be balanced.
The Space Marines: The Imperium of Man's finest. The angels of death.
Space Marines Scouts. Space marine initiates. Their implants haven't fully developed and their carapace is still hardening, and thus can't wear heavy space marine armor. We'll say these guys are Tier 1.
Tactical Space Marines. They're genetically bred killing machines in really big armor. he's strong and tough and has some great armor. Good hand to hand and ranged combat. Jack of all trades, Master of none. We'll say they're Tier 2 Troops.
Lets compare them to the Eldar, for ease of reference.
Eldar: [booming voice]Elves In Spaaaaaaaaaaaace.[/booming voice]. Actually more like Ninja Elves in Space.
Eldar Guardian - Eldar Civilians tossed in armor and trained as a militia. Not as Strong and Tough as Space Marine Scouts, but have a speed advantage. Are cheaper in Table Top. Tier 1.
Eldar Dire Avenger - Led the Phoenix Lord Asuryen and follow the path of the Warrior. Superior to Guardians in every way with greater weapons, training and armor. Not as strong or tough as Space Marines, but are faster, and their default weapons allow them to fire on the run. Tier 2.
If characters progressed through a Tiered system, it wouldn't be too difficult to balance the various opposing characters. If it's level based, maybe levels 1-10 are Tier 1, 11-25 are tier 2, 26-40 tier 3, etc.. etc.. etc..
They could balance the tiers against each other. So a Space marine could smack around some guardians, but would have a much more difficult time against a Dire Avenger, etc..
You make some excellent points... But the fact remains that sand box games have demonstrated a tendency to niche themselves in the west. The more freedom and less restrictions there are, the more the game becomes a haven for gankers and griefers. That is NOT good for a companies business model. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve Online as just one example of how these things naturally work out.
Personally, I'd not wish to be the one attempting to make the major design decisions in this game. Just about anything you do will alienate some part of the fan base. Not to mention having to hand hold the investors/publisher once the initial wave of players starts to fade out. Eve has the hard bought luxury of looking at the long haul. The vast majority of games lack that. They are at the "mercy" of those holding the purse strings, and thus must dance to their tune. That means that 40K is most likely going to be a theme park style game(with PvP elements like WoW has).
Different races ally on the battlefield all the time if they need to....Eldar and SM allying to fight chaos as an easy example. Even in the rulebook they say to come up with whatever reason you need to to field whatever armys you have to ally or fight each other.
This idea just popped in my head and I thought I would share. What if they do have say, Eldar and SM as ally's but to stay a bit more to lore the Eldar and SM players cant communicate, similar to how they have enemy factions play in MMOs, and of course they cant enter each others Headquarters. Alerts could be issued if allys were have a huge battle. Similar in WAR yuo cuold look at the map and see hotspots but maybe with icons showing the races involved.
It could make sense Lore-wise if the eldar are being pushed hard by chaos the SMs could reinforce them to fight the common foe, but they wouldnt exactly be chatty. They could even open communication between the allies at higher "levels" to kind of show commanders on the battlefield helping issue orders to consolidate forces. So as a level 30+ SM you can talk to and be understood by level 30+ Eldar. You cant be understood by the noobs though. "LOLz, Hey Eldarz! We're gonna flank over by the rubble on the east side. Have your guyz push when we start AOEing!" Then the Eldar higher levels tells the noobs what the plan is.
Could be cool.
yeah, so had WAR supposed to be the shit, and what happened? cut down to some micro maps with okeish pvp but horrible, funneled progression.
40K is better suited to tactical/strategy games and will never work as an MMO. simply because its about massive battles or tactical skirmishes, without the group ure dead, and u will be because everyone will leave it after a month just like WAR.
only way for the game as i see it is the shooter option something between Battlefield series and Global Agenda. MMORPG this will not be im afraid.
besides, MMOs in general are a loosing genre. right now its single player games with multiplayer (CoD4, B:BC2, AvP, etc.) that are ruling the multiplayer world. action non stop, without the boredom and grind and tons of useless stats and gear that becomes useless in like 5 minutes of gameplay...
It needs... people. Subscribers. Hopefully the IP will pull more people in.... and hopefully it will come pre-made with an anti-flop feature.
Space Marines are only going to be playable by those who buy the $80 Collector's Edtion and who also pay $300 for the lifetime subscription fee...
2 ways to go, PVP or PVE.
1. PVP
Most of you say 40k is based on PVP. Well you can say that about any game that has fighting. If you want to copy the tabletop game then yes, its about player vs player otherwise its a setting where anything can happen.
At this stage, there is no chance that with the amount of hands in the mix and the amount of money this will take that the game will be innovative when it comes to pvp or anything at all. You are fooling yourself if you think they want to make anything except a sure fire money maker which means copy what works. Star Trek is a good example of this, a universe with so much to offer and so many wannabe players expecting so much and getting a watered down pos. It can only be a clone of Warcraft or some other mix of existing games just like WaR tried to be and Global Agenda.
I would be very surprised if they added more than two factions, why would they? Because someone on a forum says they have to? While I want more than two factions as well, the nightmares it would cause for development can't be justified by investors for this reason; WoW works fine with two factions which is enough for the money guys to say. Of course, any 40k fan knows this will suck.
Don't get me wrong, I want awesome fun innovative PVP, but lets be realistic; we can hope all we want that they do something and get it right... but they won't. Its been proven time and time again. They will go where the money is and copy others.
2. PVE
With that in mind, imo the only way they can ever hope to really capture everything that the Warhammer Universe has to offer is by going PVE only and focusing on ENGAGING content and lots of it - something that most PVP mmorpg's these days don't have, and never have at launch because all the resources go into developing the (lackluster) PVP.
Innovating the way players interact with and experience the story world is should be where its at with this game. The STORY, arguably the coolest and most engaging part of the 40k universe, suffers in most PVP based mmorpg's along with everything else - half assed content and leveling, skills, quests etc. Here they have a chance to be different while still going where the money is (Can you say housewives playing sisters of battle or female eldar?)
With PVE they also go where the money is and concentrate on innovating and creating an engaging truly epic storyline with incredible content, group based and solo missions, real quests, not just fetch quests, and lots of it. PVP is less important to me in 40k than experiencing the universe at its fullest and most immersive.
End Note.
Think about it. While I am optimistic about video games because someone will always innovate at some point, the fact right now remains, the larger the IP the bigger chance of it sucking. Star Wars, Star Trek, WaR, Matrix... the list goes on and will get longer.
Mmorpg is a genre, and with every genre comes conventions. Also a key part of mmorpg is RPG. SO this is why I say PVE. If they want to add more of the tabletop strategy experience and go the Global Agenda route and improve on that model fine, but if its an mmorpg then PVE.
If they want to create a new genre or mix of them then fine, but it wont happen.
I've been reading the thread and there are a lot of good ideas around it, I just hope that some THQ ppl could read it and think about what has been said here.
The squad based system could be a good idea if they make it right. I'd make different 'classes' for each race, because each squad is very unique and u cannot make them from the same base, for example a Marine themed Squad it's based on marines, but a Techpriest or an Inquisitor usually go with some servitors rather than with a human squad.
For example, in the SM race you could choose to be a Scout, a Marine, a Techpriest or an Inquisitor, each with his role on the battlefield.
- The Scout squad could specialize in long range combat or close combat with maybe more of an anti-vehicle/heavy weapons build and demolition charges, etc.
- As a Marine u could go for the path of a tactical squad, an assault squad or a Heavy weapons one.
- I see the techpriest squad as a support squad, with vehicle an armor repair abilities, and they could also deploy some kind of turrets or defensive/offensive systems to support the rest of the army. But I see it more with the image of a Techpriest with a bunch of servitors rather than a full human squad, as i said before.
- And finally the Inquisitor squad would be the 'spell' themed squad, the Inquisitor and his servitors, they could be a DPS or support caster.
As for the factions I don't know what to say, 40K's armies are so independant that it's not easy to group them on factions, but it's true that 2 or 3 factions are the best choice, make the game like the tabletop would be a mess.
In the PvP vs PvE discussion I would say that 40k is all about war, so the PvP should be extensive and good, but I think the game must have a decent PvE too. I like PvP but I'm more of a PvE player so this may be a little subjective. And I think that a game with a poor PvE experience won't be very succesful, and 40k has tons of lore to make PvE content from it ( we have EVE as an exception, but EVE is EVE), and 40k has tons of lore to make PvE content from it.
These are some ideas that came to my mind while reading the post, and I'll accept every serious critic about them.
PD: sorry if I have a Bad English but I'm Spanish :D
Yes SM are bred for War
YES they are the creme of the crop of the imperium
YES! they can kick multitudes of ass before going down in a blaze of glory
HOWEVER Even though a single SM can kick dozens of Xenos in the teeth and live to tell the tale you're more referring to orks
who by nature are about the same ferocity as the SMs themselves the only difference is the Orks are kinda squishy but the Orks have numbers on their side and they're completely CRAZY. SMs adhere to a strict set of rules in a battleplan and any deviation is Heresy and then Heretics must burn and die.
After much reading on the Space Marines you can play a Space Marine in the MMO imho, they're not gods on the battlefield sure they're huge and yes they're powerful but far from immortal.
In game stats they should be bigger and badder than most everybody else so a bonus to health and regen would be necessary. BUT! They're not exactly able to pummel any Xenos or traitor into submission with just their fists (Unless they have power fist wargear handy). Several fluff battles have indicated that yes they were successful but with losses and you have to keep in mind this is a fluff based game not some silly Tabletop adventure turned 3D. It's more like DoW2 MMO
If the Tau so chose they could lie in wait leading the SM into an ambush where the potentiality for that squads Gene Seed to be lost would be great.
SM vs CSM there's usually heavy losses on both ends
SM vs DE the DE may lose a good bit but in the end they'll steal away with some tech and slaves which is what they were after in the first place. They come in fast strike hard take what they want and vanish leaving a mess behind.
SM vs Eldar this is apparent in DoW 2 when you fight the Eldar there because I feel the SMs in DoW 2 are far far stronger than the DoW 1 SMs. They can take alot of hits before succumbing to the touch of death. The Eldar are very tactical and any advantage they can leverage in a battle they will. Bonesingers would probably be in the rear bringing forth weapons platforms to push the SM back from what they feel is their sacred site.
SM vs Orks the greenskins just keep coming and only when the War boss goes down do they get scared enough to all scatter and run. Otherwise they're rough tough and got enough Dakka to take on any Git.
SM vs Tyranids or Necrons they lose with MAJOR Major losses unless they've come in a HUGE force and even then it's no guarantee if the Nids and Necrons are either acting as one or en masse.
So saying the Space Marines cannot be playable is silly each race has it's own strengths and weaknesses.
The SM are STRONG in Battle so long as they don't have to trek far on foot they're not Agile, they're not Fast, they can't react super fast (Cinematic of DoW 2 when the Warp Spiders get the jump on them). All they have is Super human strength endurance stamina and the faith to believe the god Emperor guides their hand.
End result the SM are just basically like the RL Force Recon Marines they're the Elite of the elite but they're not immortal.
The Orks have numbers and steal any tech they can get their grubby paws on.
The Dark Eldar appear from the darkness and return just as fast when they have what the objective was.
Tau lay in wait scouting and planning tactics until it's time to strike
Eldar warp in with a huge force and flank you on every side striking so fast you have little time to react if at all.
Chaos SM come in with the ground troops similar to the SM but then follow up with the Daemons to really push the point that your world will soon become theirs.
But SM Hanging out in Bars or having downtime hah Never...
IG More than likely have normal lives, the Inquisition are always busy in everybody's business so them having any downtime is usually spent in fervent prayer to the Emperor.
When a battle for Imperium objectives starts it begins with the IG, they get sent in first to assess the situation and handle it to the best of their abilities. If they succeed hooray then they have to start the process of building outposts on the planet.
If things go south for IG then the SM are called in to take care of the problem, but! if the SM get too zealous or don't immediately go to assist the IG then the Inquisition gets involved and as we all know they like to Accuse first and find out the truth later.
So CAN you play as Space Marines right off the bat
SURE! But like I keep saying DO NOT EXPECT TO BE Death incarnate You'll be having standard Bolters (strong yes but super strong no.) Standard Power armor nothing super fancy and everything else standard. Yes you can take lots and lots of punishment but when you reach the breaking point and there's no Apothecary in sight you'll be taking the next group of Xenos with you in death if things get too rough.
I liked the concept of being able to evolve into a different classification should the need arise...
Space Marines having two core classes would work to me You've got the
Scout Squad and the Tactical Squad
These can both eventually divert into different areas and even become dreadnoughts at a later point, I would think if they gained enough reknown with the inquisition and enough Favor with the Imperium they could also become a more presitgeous class like the Grey Knight or a Terminator.
Same goes for all the other races too since technically that's all it boils down to so you'd get as follows
Chaos Space Marines
Cultist and Traitor Marines
Eldar
Guardian and Ranger
Dark Eldar
Warrior and Wych
Imperial Guard
Conscript and Trooper
Inquisition
Acolyte and Warrior
Orks
Ork Boyz and Shoota Boyz
Tau
Fire Warrior and Kroot Kindred
But this is just my assumption of how it would work and how it could function if by gaining this or that and having enough Requisition to acquire more Elite means of battle would do.
Didn't read all the replies but this would be a good starting point...Planetside got a lot of things right in the early days and vehicles/certs up to BR20 were some good ideas.
For factions maybe look at Fallen Earth style faction wheel? So Empire would tolerate the Eldar and Chaos tolerate Orks
so factions would be edgy where they could still turn upon each other but could come together facing a mutual enemy..i can see Farseers telling Guardians etc to help out a Marine Unit against tyranids or Chaos since they both kind of hate them.
Balancing would be hard i feel still..1 space marine =/= 10 ork boyz? kind of hard since marines are the elite of the elite where orks are usually canonfodder zerglings
At the risk of getting flames early on I actually think there are things that LOTRO did well that could be applied quite nicely to a 40K universe. Particularly around how LOTRO dealt with immersion in the background story and in the interaction with the forces of Sauron.
Personally I would like to see a game where the players main character is a guardsman/cogboy/sanctioned psyker, coopted into the service of the inquisition and would then progress through the ranks to Interrogater or maybe even Inquisitor - much like Dark Heresy, or Rogue Trader. The character is developed through the PVE world - which would give us access to the wide body of lore - the chance to unearth the dark secrets of the imperium ,fight the xenos, the heretic and the malleus, even perhaps become heretics ourselves using the powers of chaos against chaos. (Eisenhorn, Ravenor anyone) .
Character development would give us the ability to access PVP play, where we can either take our PVE characters or choose to play, Ork warboyz, Eldar, Tau, Chaos etc. Have Hero classes in this PVP environment (Space Marines, FarSeers, Sorcerors etc) which are unlockable under certain battle conditions - it should be possible to program an instance such that if one side is seriously understength or getting their backsides kicked that additional players can enter as the hero class to try and maintain the balance, or as a last ditch defense mechanism some cultist manages to finally summon that Daemon of Khorne or techboy manages to teleport in a Space Marine Squad (or Terminator). Hey points from the tabletop gain are designed to do this balancing so theres a system (albeit a little SM centric) out there already.
If you only want to play PVP well the system i've suggested above enables you to graft a little in PVE and then go out and create a PVP chaos beastie to run rampant with and gank to your hearts content. PVE development should give you points to devlop your PVP characters enabling you to be swing a Choppa or fire a Shoota one day, and burn down your enemies as a Chaos Sorceror the next you. The more PVE you do the more powerful a PVP beastie you can make, or perhaps it makes it easier to summon (play) that Hero Class.
If you only want to play PVE - well you need never go to the Eye of Terror/Cadia (or wherever else you set the PVP environment)
A game that focuses only on the combat element and ignores the background story dies sooner rather than later. If a company wants a commercially viable long term game they need to spend just as much time on player immersion in the environment as WOW did/does.
Thanks for reading this
# 1 Multi factions for overall PvP and RvR balance.
Planetside and DAOC made this happen and it is proven that will work.
# 2 Lore versus MMO
As much I love the Warhammer 40k universe, from a hardcore MMO player standpoint I prefer balance. If THQ have tone down the space marines to make the game balance so be it.
# 3 End Game Content
No matter how pretty or how many quest the game has; If there nothing to do at max level other than walking around on your home town with the "sword of PWNAGE" the game, in my opinion, it is failure.
# 4 RvR / PvE / PvP
Thanks WoW (I am not much of a fan of this game, but I highly respect the king), a successful MMO needs to have these 3 elements. So here is the big challenge for THQ. How can achieve faction balance in both PvE and PvP? I have long been a proponent of the Planetside certification system on which players can select the skills that fits their game style. This way there is no damn excuse, if your current combo sucks. RECERT!!!!
# 5 Vehicle Combat
Land and Air vehicles should be considered.
Last but not least a word of advise to THQ. Keep the game in a low profile, dont overhype. Listen to the player base, but please use common sense approach for final solutions. The web is full of boards filled up with tears and blood of people that dont have anything better to do with their time than be a hater and doomsayer.
i look forward to this game and I will try it no matter what!
good luck THQ
Hadn't considered that angle....... Need to start saving now
I disagree that this game, or any game, has to follow WoW's footsteps. Or even do both PvP and PvE just because WoW did it. I just don't think it makes sense from a business perspective.
If a company goes that route, then what are they expecting? To compete with WoW? Where will their customers come from? Are they trying to get people to switch from raiding in WoW to raiding in their new game?
After people have been playing WoW for years, they are VERY unlikely to do that. They have their guilds, their raiding schedule. And let's not forget, WoW is a very good game. At least in the PvE arena. People love it.
So no, their target audience has to be people who are tired of WoW, or people who never liked WoW. Either way, people who are either not playing WoW, or are looking for something else. Those people, by definition, want something completely different than WoW. Otherwise they would just stay.
So from a business point of view, any new game needs to be as different from WoW as possible, while still offering a little bit of something similar so that people coming in from other games will feel at home. But the core has to be different. If you make a new MMO today and try and go head to head with Blizzard on PvE and Raiding, you will fail. WoW is doing it, and is doing it better, with more money, more experience and a solid player-base. No point competing with that.
Well I'm just going to throw this out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up. (bonus points if you know the movie reference)
What about the Space Marines and their toughness versus the Orks and their ferocity and numbers? At least as a mini game or pvp mode I think we can work with this.
Space marines are more apt to take out 10 Orks, 1 at a time or in small groups, but you can incorporate the mechanic from DoW 1 where Orks get an inherent buff the more Orks are around so that 10 of them will have the upper hand against an equal level SM. But here is the rub: Orks can self combat resurrect up to say 3 times and can respawn at a waypoint in 3 seconds. SM's cannot combat resurrect, have a 20 second respawn timer at waypoints and have a stacking 10% debuff that lasts 30 seconds on respawn.
I am not a fan of death penalties and I will stress that this is an optional hardcore style of play. It should not effect people in PvE and regular space marine players. It should be a pvp mode for those that want to be a legendary Space Marine of lore. It could be kind of like an achievement system with custom titles and rewards you can pass on to other characters you create. If Space Marines are about legends and lineage, this could be that system. One of WAR's bright spot was the reknown system. These guy can earn and lose reknown and earn but not lose levels. Some equipment required levels or reknown but the best required both. So if you lose a reknown level you would never lose your skills gained through leveling but you may have to use stock level based gear until you gain your reknown level back. I am not fond of the ability to go all the way back to zero so there should be cap on reknown level loss (50ish%?)
This won't be popular on the whole but I know end game zealots would possibly eat this up. I think you could take a page from WAR in that early on, PvP was accessible and popular. You could make this system let the average joe mess around with it for some benefit at a slower pace. Yet for the intense minority this could be an alternative to raiding or could be incorporated into raiding and serve much the same function as heroic mode dungeons in WoW or the alternate advancement in EQ.
I know its crazy pie in the sky but we need innovation in this genre. This is the kind of thought that looks back at the positives and negatives of what worked and what didn't and applies it forward. You don't disregard completely something that was poorly executed in the past. Instead you classify it, find out who it did serve versus who it could serve, frame it, improve it and re-release it. There really are very few bad ideas in MMO's. Most were just poorly executed, neutered, or narrowly focused.
This game may be another WoWish MMO with better graphics. But I may be wrong.
@ GamerAeon (not gonna quote your post.... too long)
That might all be fine in DOW or in any other strategy game.... but this will be an MMO !
MMO means, you play 1 Character... ergo there has to be some kind of headcount balance... 10 Marines would have to be equally strong as 10 Orks, Eldar, Tau, etc...
And that is a major Lore rape... say what you will but Marines are not some sort of virtual elite... and Recon Marines don't wear Adamantium Power Armor... ;)
Ill be happy as long as it has no NPC quests.
The chances of that are vanishingly small.
lol According to the fluff they are the Elite of the Imperium forces and thusly when the IG epicfail the SM are called in to do the major head bashing.
Yes I'm aware this is gonna be an MMO but you should keep in mind who's making the thing (THQ/Vigil)
So the SM are probably not gonna be the Mega supermen of the TT and Fluff but in DoW 2 if you play them I've managed to take a single Tactical Squad and tear through several Ork Boyz and Eldar Howling Banshees before they all just completely eat it (Mostly due to the Stormboyz or Eldar Rangers).
Each race is going to HAVE to have some sorta Racial bonus that will mimic their true fluff personas
Like the SM getting Stamina bonuses due to being genetically bred super humans who can withstand major punishment.
IG and Ork would have a Strength in Numbers Bonus where if there's more around the stronger they can get
Orks would also get a big bonus to Regen
Both Eldar races would get Agility bonuses and Dark Eldar would have the ability to have an improved Stealth and immune to poisons (since they pretty much live with poisons daily)
Tau would get a Damage bonus from Tactics since the Tau never ever go into a fight w/o knowing what's needed first.
And on the subject of the Recon Marines, If only...If only. heh
I'm thinking of a Battlefield kind of squads here. You can group with a certain number of people to form a group based on what they are. You can have the choice to join a friends squad, or just a random squad. Even the lone wolves could click a button and go on their way. It could group you into squads that spawn near each other, that way they don't have to run all the way back and the fight goes on until all are dead. Squads could be split into companies, and maybe clan organization could place you in groups and companies? Just some ideas, but personally, an mmofps route for this would be GREAT! Not like, Darkfall (Which I currently play by the way) where you have to walk a long way to find a good match for some PvP or action. Lots of action and content is what this IP needs. Especially with all the lore involved... Think about it, Dawn of War 40k, but you control one of those factions marines/fighters in those epic battles. That's just my two cents :)
I'm thinking of a Battlefield kind of squads here. You can group with a certain number of people to form a group based on what they are. You can have the choice to join a friends squad, or just a random squad. Even the lone wolves could click a button and go on their way. It could group you into squads that spawn near each other, that way they don't have to run all the way back and the fight goes on until all are dead. Squads could be split into companies, and maybe clan organization could place you in groups and companies? Just some ideas, but personally, an mmofps route for this would be GREAT! Not like, Darkfall (Which I currently play by the way) where you have to walk a long way to find a good match for some PvP or action. Lots of action and content is what this IP needs. Especially with all the lore involved... Think about it, Dawn of War 40k, but you control one of those factions marines/fighters in those epic battles. That's just my two cents :)
Hmm..i guess I'm missing something...but why would you want your MMO to so closely reflect that tabletop. If you love the tabletop mechanics that much play the tabletop. If you love the "feel" of the game then i would think you would be ok with being 1 character thrust into the madness of war 38k years in the future...
Ok people what the heck are you thinking.
PvE as the main aspect? Are you kidding?
Ok ok ok... I'll bite. How exactly is that going to work? How are you going to have a PvE focus with this game? What's the end-game going to be? Heck, what are you going to do while leveling up that won't be the same "Kill 10 Xenos" quest over and over?
Add to it, the fact that you are also calling for them to abolish the Tank, Healer, Damage trinity that makes PvE possible in the way you are all wanting. How are raids going to be done? Just a bunch of running around jump strafing? Right...
Personally, WAR was my hope for DAoC 2. Didn't happen. Please oh please THQ, give me my epic PvP game back. I don't care if its in a Sci-Fi Universe, just give me it back!
And to all the ignorant masses out there, PvE sure does have big numbers, but back in the day DAoC had big numbers too because they did it right. Then lets also take into account the type of players that are playing games like WoW nowadays.
I'd sacrifice a couple thousand subscribers to avoid that clusterf@ck of failure.
Oh yes! Please give us a game that seriously niches itself at launch! Please give us a game that is a haven for gankers and griefers! Thats always been HIGHLY successful in the past!... I'm certain that the investors/money types wouldn't mind sacrificing a few hundred thousand subscribers, just to appeal to a narrow niche market... Especially in these economic times...
PvE does not need tanks, healers and damage ‘classes’. Why can’t you have PvE that works like part of a BF2142 Titan take down? The ‘quest’ is to infiltrate and take down a small space hulk, you have a medic but he can shoot and kill too, you have players who are more armoured or can do more damage. You also have bot controlling engineers and sneaky recon. You assault the hulk, take out the NPC rebels who have taken it over and claim it for the Imperium.
The combat is more free flowing, twitch based, but the healing and other support roles are still there.
I would certainly hope its RvR, not open PvP.
OPvP is a crime against humanity...It only allows for griefing and ganking and generally will lose any company money if enough people are unhappy long enough with what's going on. (Case in point Allods Online current state)
Unfortunately in WH40k Universe there are those who can tank there are those who can dps there are those who can heal.
But they're all hybrids as a Mad Doc or Apothecary can also blast you in the face and smack you down.
Scenario 1 - The Orks have built up a base on an Imperium Outlying world and thusly the IG are sent in to remove the Orks.
The Orks are now landing on the nearby moon which is occupied by the Tau (Yes according to fluff they like to spy on the Imperium from the moons if possible) The Tau aren't standing for it and you have a Battleground on the moon of Orks v Tau.
Back on the planet the IG are at a standstill reclaiming the Orkhold due to so many Orks and defense the Orks have set up, Enter the SM who drop pod down and proceed to blast their way in.
But is this Scenario just Orks Tau IG and SM? Oh no! For also on the planet is an ancient Webway gate that flickers to life the moment the Orks settle down on the planet and the Imperium forces draw near it. The Eldar come forth and decide to covertly assist the Imperium taking down the Orkhold, But! With every Force of good the Force of darkness comes to have their say in the matter.
The same webway gate that allowed the Eldar to pass through in a small force also flickers again as 2 Raiders full of DE Warriors comes forth eyeing the battlefield for potential slaves and sport (in the form of combat And yes they can take on the SM mono et mono). So while all this is going on you have this happening as follows
a BG with Orks v Tau on the moon
Eldar get a Stealth mission to sabotage the Orkhold
Dark Eldar get your not so typical Capture X Humans Cause X% of damage to everybody.
Orks get a BG and a Defend mission (if they so choose though it'd be PvP)
IG get a mission to repair and rebuild as well as defend from the Dark Eldar (again PvP)
SM get an Assault mission to take out the Orkhold
So this is just ONE Scenario on a single planet (and moon) where nearly everybody is involved in some sort of combat whether it be PvP or PvE. This would give players a twitch based combat because everything is happening rather quickly, it's not your typical go slaughter X Orks or X Mob thing. The BG adds Uniqueness to the experience (Btw the BG is more like WAR's RvR contested areas than an actual instance).
OPvP is a crime against humanity...It only allows for griefing and ganking and generally will lose any company money if enough people are unhappy long enough with what's going on. (Case in point Allods Online current state)
Unfortunately in WH40k Universe there are those who can tank there are those who can dps there are those who can heal.
But they're all hybrids as a Mad Doc or Apothecary can also blast you in the face and smack you down.
Scenario 1 - The Orks have built up a base on an Imperium Outlying world and thusly the IG are sent in to remove the Orks.
The Orks are now landing on the nearby moon which is occupied by the Tau (Yes according to fluff they like to spy on the Imperium from the moons if possible) The Tau aren't standing for it and you have a Battleground on the moon of Orks v Tau.
Back on the planet the IG are at a standstill reclaiming the Orkhold due to so many Orks and defense the Orks have set up, Enter the SM who drop pod down and proceed to blast their way in.
But is this Scenario just Orks Tau IG and SM? Oh no! For also on the planet is an ancient Webway gate that flickers to life the moment the Orks settle down on the planet and the Imperium forces draw near it. The Eldar come forth and decide to covertly assist the Imperium taking down the Orkhold, But! With every Force of good the Force of darkness comes to have their say in the matter.
The same webway gate that allowed the Eldar to pass through in a small force also flickers again as 2 Raiders full of DE Warriors comes forth eyeing the battlefield for potential slaves and sport (in the form of combat And yes they can take on the SM mono et mono). So while all this is going on you have this happening as follows
a BG with Orks v Tau on the moon
Eldar get a Stealth mission to sabotage the Orkhold
Dark Eldar get your not so typical Capture X Humans Cause X% of damage to everybody.
Orks get a BG and a Defend mission (if they so choose though it'd be PvP)
IG get a mission to repair and rebuild as well as defend from the Dark Eldar (again PvP)
SM get an Assault mission to take out the Orkhold
So this is just ONE Scenario on a single planet (and moon) where nearly everybody is involved in some sort of combat whether it be PvP or PvE. This would give players a twitch based combat because everything is happening rather quickly, it's not your typical go slaughter X Orks or X Mob thing. The BG adds Uniqueness to the experience (Btw the BG is more like WAR's RvR contested areas than an actual instance).
If they do something like that the game would be awesome. Love the idea, but unfortunately I don't think we'll se something like that (I just hope I'm wrong :P)
ill tell you what, armor in this game needs to be EXTREMELY customizable, and i mean EXTREMELY! whole point of warhammer is to paint your soldiers.
there needs to be a SERIOUS, and i MEAN SERIOUS colour customization.
hell, if they give me a digital paintbrush ingame (with diff. brushes, brush sizes etc (even text!)), where i can design my own designs, that would be perfect, not just generic 1 colour for helm, 1 colour for boots, etc...
If they do something like that the game would be awesome. Love the idea, but unfortunately I don't think we'll se something like that (I just hope I'm wrong :P)
Here's to hoping someone from THQ on the project with Vigil happens along and sees it lol
Things like that would make the game pop and really immerse everybody into the WH40k Universe since it's pretty close to what would actually happen if things went that way in a Story based on the fluff. I was actually surprised to learn that the Dark Eldar can stand up 1:1 with the Space Marines.
I just hope there is no CTF or Territories. Blending FPS with pointless MMO battlegrounds makes nostalgia for past games come roaring to life.
CTF...noooo
As for the second one...Do you know much about WH40k?
The chances of that are vanishingly small.
What the hell happened to our brains? Planetside(not that i want wh40k to be exactly like it) had no MOB at all. Where were we when we played that game? Why is it so weird now, to conceive a game without NPCs' quests?
If you're thinking market then i tell you Warhammer Online and other commercial games are not so good for business. Nobody can be sure that an apparently NICHE game won't be loved by millions of players. Market researchers don't know everything.
In my own point of view commercial "safe" choices can give you moderate profit that may well tend to bankrupt your company. In my own calculations, innovation can be much more profitable and even less risky.
What else? Obviously i would love to see dynamic battlegrounds, armies that join the fray and all.
But the point is to make it player-driven... all the "drama" that has been cited can't be decided by the programmers, they should only provide REASONS for US players to formulate those "claims" and objectives that the person above skillfully told... otherwise if we just execute these dramas we're just cannon fodder, we won't care about what we do and WHY we do it, it'll be META-gaming all over again.
Also the game's winning strike should definitely be temporary WAR HOUSING, with production and extraction of resources. Buildings HARD to maintain, to manage, to defend.
What the hell happened to our brains? Planetside(not that i want wh40k to be exactly like it) had no MOB at all. Where were we when we played that game? Why is it so weird now, to conceive a game without NPCs' quests?
If you're thinking market then i tell you Warhammer Online and other commercial games are not so good for business. Nobody can be sure that an apparently NICHE game won't be loved by millions of players. Market researchers don't know everything.
In my own point of view commercial "safe" choices can give you moderate profit that may well tend to bankrupt your company. In my own calculations, innovation can be much more profitable and even less risky.
What else? Obviously i would love to see dynamic battlegrounds, armies that join the fray and all.
But the point is to make it player-driven... all the "drama" that has been cited can't be decided by the programmers, they should only provide REASONS for US players to formulate those "claims" and objectives that the person above skillfully told... otherwise if we just execute these dramas we're just cannon fodder, we won't care about what we do and WHY we do it, it'll be META-gaming all over again.
Also the game's winning strike should definitely be temporary WAR HOUSING, with production and extraction of resources. Buildings HARD to maintain, to manage, to defend.
You don't need to convince me. Who needs to be convinced are the investors/money types who get all starry eyed when they hear the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft". Sand box games all too often turn into havens for gankers and griefers. There is a very limited demographic for such games, as a result. Given the tens of millions(of other peoples money) that major MMO's cost these days, only an eccentric billionaire type would be likely to take the risks involved for such a game.
Especially in the current global economic situation. Damn few people are going to risk their jobs(or careers...) by making such a risky decision. Its FAR safer to stay with the pack, and risk as little as possible and if the game flops, blame the technical/marketing team. That strategy is as old as business itself.
Sorry to break it guys but could we just have a FUN game even if it's not even 80% lore accurate?
I have lead figurines that you can't even find in store since 10+ years (maybe 20), but honestly what's the most important a lore accurate game or a FUN game?
Nobody should make any MMO as long as WoW is a succesful game, then :)
either way with Warhammer 40k we'll see the usual MOB farming, the usual babysitting kill 10 rats quests, the usual pre-cooked activities to do, the usual gear-whoring, the usual everything, with some superficial changes in the PvP fighting and ofc all the empty gimmicks of a trademark, looks, music, mood, names, all the graphical stuff.
This is all very sad.
Considering it's WH40k a bit of both...If they ignore the fluff altogether they'll launch down the tubes faster than a greased up fat man.
The reason development companies GO after Huge IPs is to IMMERSE You IN that world.
DoW and DoW 2 are ok but they're RTS titles and barely scratched the surface on the Universe that is WH40k
The epic conflicts and eternal struggles that the races face and seeing just WHAT an imperium city would look like Just exactly what it would be like to fight down the streets of Commorragh and just how big a space hulk full of Orks really is.
It's HIGHLY unlikely THQ will fail with the project so far they've done a pretty decent job of keeping the story going introducing characters that those of us familiar with the fluff know. So here's to THQ & Vigil getting this IP going on the MMO scene and the hopes that it WON'T be WAR in Space.
As far as combat goes just make it as close to Mass Effect's over the shoulder as possible but give me the option to zoom the camera out with the mouse wheel and check my character out. Of course seeing as it's a persistent world with other players I'm assuming that the "bullet time" like abilities will have to go but that's ok because I'm really only talking about the camera position, the ability to take cover and the reticule zoom. Give me those 3 things in addition to the slew of other necessary triple A MMO ingredients and I'll be over joyed.
I think I like the fact that THQ haven't done an MMORPG yet (as far as I know of). So this should introduce a fresh perspective on how an MMO could be designed.
I agree with an earlier poster, I really hope they keep all the races/factions separate. If any combining of the races should be formed under a faction, let the players decide, integrate some form of a political system where players ultimately decide whether or not they need to team up with <insert lesser necessary evil> to take down <insert greater overpowering evil> within the world. It should breed war and all other forms of chaos. I really hope they play into that.
WH40k factions are quite different from Warhammer. While in th e later races share a common world, in wh40k they share a universe and members of one race rarely ever meet or even see other races. And in the case, they on of the two dies inthe process. :)
Moreover tabletop game mechanics are very different from one race to another, leveraging a lot on the numbers of the factions. For example, I had a 16 model army and a 60 model army for the same ammount of points. Such features you cannot translate in a MMO IMHO.
Lastly, Wh40k is heavily based on fluff. Translating fluff in MMO game mechanics is going to kill a lot of fluffy aspects, which is one of the strength of the WH40k environment. IF they actually are going to do this, I can just hope in a miracle :(
My 2c,
X
Well Aside from the Imperium races the only races in constant contact are the IG, SM and Orks
RARELY the Eldar pop outta nowhere and then just as quickly vanish back through the Webway
The Tau are Very rarely encountered by the IG unless the IG deliberately goes into their neck of the universe.
The Dark Eldar, Forces of Chaos, Necrons, And Tyranids are hardly ever seen and when they are it causes such a stir that by the time anyone reacts it's either a full blown Cleansing by the inquisition of the imperium (Chaos) , Ruined settlements (Dark Eldar), or Full blown emergencies to which most everybody shows up to the party (Necrons & Tyranids)
The combat mechanics of fluff may not happen in an MMO universe but how the races act, what they think, feel, believe should be 100% accurate to immerse us into their game.
I mean if I decide to play a Scout Marine I don't expect to go settle some world or kill X Animal here.
I best be going on a recon mission to find out what the heck is going on at X Planetary settlement that they keep sending emergency signals out that something is wrong.
If I find out the Imperium settlement's been overrun or in utter disarray then I should report this back to my chapter leader and move out from there with the rest of the Space Marine Chapter force to quell whatever is going on.
If I play an Acolyte for the inquistion my first mission shouldn't be to go Kill X Members of Chaos it'll be to FIND Traces OF chaos in my city I'm based in.
If I play a Dark Eldar warrior I don't expect to be joining several dozen others and raiding a Space Marine base camp that's suicide and not ever gonna happen...EVER.
I fully expect to raid an Imperium Settlement for slaves and kill anyone who stands in my way of the objective then collect up their souls gather up my slaves and get the heck outta dodge before I get blown to smithereens.
If THQ/Vigil get this game right it'll be the biggest thing SINCE WoW hit and Warhammer Online was announced.
If they read any of this they need to understand this Faction run down
Imperial Guard & Space Marines are friendly to one another
Inquisition are Neutral to both and the entire Imperium is hostile to everybody else.
Dark Eldar dislike everyone
Chaos HATE Everyone
Eldar and Tau are neutral to everybody BUT Chaos, Unless the Dark Eldar get in the Eldar's way they generally don't know about their dealings and haven't had but a few interactions with them.
Next the subject of Vehicles, Each race pretty much has a SUPER Vehicle that can facepwn most everything
This should be something available End game style for MAJOR PvE and RvR battles.
If the IG and Space Marines are stopping a Tyranid invasion they shouldn't go in with just regular guard a few sentinels and just some Tactical Marines. NO they should be rolling in with a couple Baneblades some Leman Russ Battle Tanks and a Land Raider chock full of Terminator squads backed up with a few Dreadnoughts. But this is HIGH level content you'd be experiencing.
I really want to see this game give the WH40k IP the respect it deserves as being a great SciFi IP and not just some silly Nerdy game played with miniatures.
I really want to say "No! You're wrong! The WH40k mmo will be amazing!" but unfortunately I think your description is pretty much the way it will turn out. Horus will probably be waiting somewhere at the end of a high level dungeon so players can repeatedly farm him for his epic phat loot. Oh and we will get quests to farm 10 chaos marines at some point.
The Sixth Thing Warhammer 40K MMO need to get right: Use AoC level graphics!!!! There MUST be the level of gothic grittiness that only AoC level graphics can produce or at least Dragon Age Origins level graphics. Do NOT produce another warhammer MMO with WOW/ Saturday afternoon cartoon graphics...its the ultimate fail.
It would also fail if one requires a super computer to run it at a decent frame rate. Thats one of the things that killed many peoples experience with Warhammer online.
You dont you can buy the computer right off any outlet floor for under 800.00 USD it plays them all fine. Warhammer MMO graphics are horrible they are less quality than Wow...
I would say it should use similar graphics but closer up detail of DoW 2