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General : Fighting Words: EQ2 vs. Vanguard (Part 2)
Posted Sep 02, 2010 by Suzie Ford
A couple of days ago, MMORPG.com's Adam Tingle started a battle royale between fans of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and fans of Everquest 2 in his latest Fighting Words column. Adam fans the flames as he takes a look at solo experiences, group experiences, crafting, fluff, the end game and, finally, the bottom line. See if Adam's fighting words make your fanboi blood boil!
Dum, dum, dum, dum. Dum dum, dum dum. Dum dum durr. Rising up, back on the street, took my time, took my chances. Went the distance, now I’m back on my feet, just a man and his will to survive. So many times it happens too fast, you change your passion for glory. Don’t lose your grip on the dreams of the past; you must fight just to keep them alive. It’s the eye of the tiger, it’s the thrill or the fight, rising up to the challenge of our rival, and the last known survivor stalks its prey in the night and he’s watching us all in the eye. Eye of the tiger.
Read more Fighting Words: Vanguard vs Everquest 2.
Vanguard is on its way to cancellation, EQ2 will be here for years, EQ2 wins on that alone.
How can Vaguard gets 5/10 in population? Really?
What would a 1/10 be, a single player? I mean 2/10 or 3/10 possibly would be right but 5/10 should be a mid number MMO with like 150K - 200K players or so, not 30K.
Most of the scores are ok but some are just too generous.
I got to a higher level in EQ2, not because I enjoyed the game more, but because leveling is easier. The game is enjoyable, but there is just something off about it for me. I feel more immersed in Vanguard. The world actually feels alive for me. There are bugs, but none that are game breaking for me. I wish I could see rain mostly :(
The monthly Station Pass just ended for me and my wife, we resubbed, but not for the Station Pass, but instead just for Vanguard. I really hope the money actually goes to the game and not to fund their other stuff (which i highly doubt).
Players have different tastes. I don't play fantasy MMOs for grouping with tons of people or raiding, etc. I play to co-op with my wife. Why? Because we are lacking good fantasy based co-op games. For us, we never reach end game, and we play many alts. This is how we enjoy playing, and Vanguard is perfect for that. Will we group or raid later? Sure if we reach that far, if not...doesn't bother us. It is all about the FUN. When we quit having fun, we quit playing. We just quit having fun in EQ2, and found a temporary home in Vanguard.
Nice write up, I enjoy reading other peoples opinions. I request CoH vs CO next.
Someone needs to go to SOE HQ and interview them about Vanguard and push them to put more resources towards it's development...Vanguard is a brilliant game and I really wish more would be done for it. F*** EQ2!
there is no way this guy is playing the same EQ2 that is on my computer!! Crafting in EQ2 is nothing more than Spam this button, Spam that button,, Spam this button!! i should know,, i have had it on my computer since the jan after launch..What he should have said,, was EQ2's Method of crafting is extreamly and even a monkey could be trained to hit 3 buttons over and over and over..
Come on dude,, give us a break here.. This whole write up is soo one sided on Easyquest 2's side,,
This whole article reminded me of comparing a major franchise like burger king or McDonald's to a mom and pop lunch counter...it leave me with one thought..
Who paid you to do the advertisement for EasyQuest 2??
Given equal care and funds, I think Vanguard would have easily been the better game.
The truth is that both games are pretty damned good if you are looking for what they offer.
If VG's astoundingly immersive open world and sub systems like diplomacy etc, and it's group orientated challenging play, could be mixed with EQ2's polish, social tools, and sheer abundence of quality content the result would probably be my perfect game.
As it is I am currently playing EQ2 while I wait for Rift to get here, mainly because it is probably the most duo friendly mmorpg out there right now (which is my main playstyle these days).
Due to all the positive reinforcement as of late, I've actually found myself wanting to play Vanguard again. Can't say the same for EQ2, it just feels....off. Movement speed alone is awful. Not saying it's a bad game, but you did kinda shortchange Vanguard by (maybe not on purpose, but still suspiciously) the areas everyone knows it's the weakest. Not only was the fluff grade ended in just a personal opinion instead of the facts of what were there, but it got graded on such things as development/etc. If you were there with me during closed, open, release of VG, you know what garbage it really turned into. (nerfbat crits VG for sub base) and also how awful the majority of it was actually done before that. The fact that such a tiny team has fixed it is incredible. Also, you didn't grade LOTRO or WoW on that category, which may have altered that also. All I'm saying is consistency.
Seems like the last two categories were added to insure that EQII came out on top even though msot of the pole commenting prefer Vanguard to EQII.
As mentioned before, consistency would be nice. I didnt see those last two categories in the WOW vs. LOTRO write-up. And by population, did you mean entire player base or population per shard? The comments about population on servers seems equal and the commentary about Vanguards player base seems more positive than what was written about EQII's player base.
Anyway imho Vanguard is the better game overall.
Vanguard never had a chance. Soe buying them was just to keep them from sucking eq and eq2 dry. With a bit of support and development vanguard could easily have eclipsed eq and eq2 and been a major playing in the MMO space. But now that's really water under the bridge. Hopefully they will have taken a good long look at vanguard in developing everquest next and please lets hope everquest next isn't ever-free-realms...
You know, Adam, if I wasn't a long standing member on these forums and know that MMORPG.com has such a dysfunctional view on "failed" games, I would think, this site, admins, hold shares in $OE's MMO market.
I have to give props to $OE for making it free to play cause now they will have people spending $80 a month instead of $15 on virtual xp pots. F2play was about the dumbest thing they could hae done with that game (would have worked better with Vanguard to be honest).
As far as this comparison goes, I have to say it was good descripto but inflated (none of these games deserve anything over a 6). Vanguard lostit's touch when it's direction changed from wanting to progress in life to something better than that living for the moment "grind fix" fiend (SOD and Pota anyone?). AS for EQ2, they pretty much became a different game, all together after going F2P.
My $0.02.
wow, i tought i was the only one who thinks vanguard should be the winner here.....glad to hear that.....thinking about coming back to vanguard for a while now.
it seem a bit biased comparsion to me... when you get voices like developement or EQ having similar or better scores for characters (Vanguard ones are way more varied and fun to play) or crafting (where VG is clearly better than EQ2 one in almost every aspect and whitout factoring diplomacy)
not that i dont agree that VG have a crappy developement and is on "maintenance mode" but in the end, having played both for quite some time i think VG is generally the best game between the 2 while EQ2 have the better crafted experience and is more solo friendly
i also agree with the others who said that if VG had a developemnt and funds similar to EQ2 it will be a waaaaaay better game than EQ2 in every aspect...
I enjoyed my time in Vanguard this last year. SoE carries a number of underserved games so that it's Station Pass looks impressive. They should really try an alternative and just drop Vanguard's subscription fee to $5 or $3 a month. But that probably would not help StationPass.
Watching friends play the Everquests lead me to have no interest in them.
kind of a surprising result really, i fully expected Vanguard to win this one, though i do agree that the game population and development were, odd choices. particularly as the last one, is the same company for both... on the whole, if i was to consider playing either game again, it would be Vanguard, not EQ2.. imo, its just tells me that SOE's business decisions related to their games, are more ego driven than logical.
You did forget to add up the parts though I believe the end score would be EQ2 100 and Vanguard 87. Other then that there are some issues in my mind regarding your use of the grading system. Neither of these games are perfect in anything therefore no 10/10 should be administered. Population in Vanguard, as stated, should be more like a 2 in my mind
Absolutely agree.
Even without the equal care and funds, in a number of ways, VG is still the better game, IMO.
That's actually precisely what I'm expecting the next EQ2 to be.... It's going to be F2P/Cash Shop/Station Exchange heaven (for SOE anyway).
I have been a long long time EQ2 player and a player that always wanted to like VG but couldn't until recently. So that said...
O_o.
Seriously, that's like comparing WOW and Asheron's Call 2.
Vanguard was dead the day it was born, the game play reflects an old mantra that no one is interested in, and is perhaps one of the worst games ever released that managed to stay afloat more than a year after release.
It should do the world a favor and die like MXO.
I can't help but sense a strong Vanguard bias on the scoring. On features where Vanguard is a winner, you drop EQ2 to a 4, but when EQ2 is a clear winner - like On-Going development and population, vanguard still gets decent marks? WHAT development? EQ2 has massive updates every few months and a massive expansion at least once a year. Population? How can you even compare when Vanguard is nearly dead. Vanguard does win on a few of these counts (like immersion), but on pointsl like the two above it should be 10:1 in favour of EQ2.
Anyhow, it's easy to criticize and hard to deliver, so I'll provide my own opinions. (I've not played Vanguard for a while and never at endgame btw)
Oh come on, crafting in EQ2 is approaching the absurd. one of the poorer crafting systems I have experienced. I can't imagine giving it a 9/10, maybe a 4 if I was generous.
Only thing I could think of is that the OP has never crafted much in good crafting systems. You should get and play more before judging a craptastic system as being good.
EQ2 is the "juggernaught" that is getting prepared for yet round another of server mergers and still trying to figure out what roles classes should play in the game.
Vanguard is the little game that could..... have been something special if it was owned by a company that actually cared.
It is rather absurd to see so many ratings above 6 for two games that are years past their prime and shadows of their former selves.
I figured VG would win this, although its good to see others enjoying the game. For the skeptics on VG just give the game a shot.
I played EQ2 for many years and was involved in some of the beta testing for VG and must say that if Sigil had not dropped the ball and could have kept away from SOE that VG would have blown EQ2 out of the water.
Once Sigil got in bed with SOE and SOE forced the launch of the game before the game was ready the game was doomed. Players are more and more not putting up with bad launches and games that have so many issues when the game goes live. All of the beta testers were against the launch and knew that it was a bad idea and voiced this fact but were ignored.
One thing that I disagree with in the comparison between these 2 games is the fact that since SOE has taken over VG they have taken away just as many features as things they have tried to smooth out. One of the things that got low marks for VG was character customization and graphics, as soon as SOE had control they took away alot of the customization features that were in the game.
If SOE put half as much effort into VG as they do with EQ2, VG would IMHO be the best offerring in the games they offer. One big thing that I have noticed is the fact that it seems lately that some of the scripted boss fights in EQ2 end game are copies of some of the things that were done in VG. The one that stands out the most is one of the boss fights in the Lavastorm instances were the Boss needs to be constantly moved because he drops bombs that you need to stay away from, this was done in VG in the spore boss in the flying mount questline in VG.
As long as SOE is in control of VG it will probably continue to decline and they will continue to rob from it to add to EQ2 like flying mounts that they say are coming to EQ2 soon. Sadly it is a fact because if Sigil would have had their ducks in a row and not dropped the ball VG would have been one of the greats.
Seriously how many servers and players does Vanguard even have anymore? Less then 10K subscribers and closing servers every year? Guess some people are in denial and have to continue beating the dead horse that is their holy grail game, rather then face the grim fact that vanguard was and still is a poor game thats time has passed.
If you have fun with vanguard fine, have fun till they finally pull the plug, but please stop trying to tell the over 90% of players that have tried vanguard and left that its "Fixed" or "growing" Fun is subjective, but numbers are not and the numbers say Vanguard is Dying, and if very few are playing it, one would have to conclude that for most its not fun.
Sure SOE could pump money into it, but while one can spray perfume on a turd, its still a turd. So throw good money after bad?
Humm you mention character customization. On launch VG half giants had exactly 4 hair styles, so what your saying they now have 3 or less?
Also reality check time. Brad blew all his investers money, then he blew Microsofts money, Finally he blew SOE's money for a MMO that was not ready as you say. So the game had no monmey and wasn't ready for launch what should they have done? maybe the US goverment should have bailed it out. Because it pretty unlikely the bill collecters would have just held off, and the employees would have all worked for free, on a MMO blew through over 50 million dollars and had crap to show for it. End the end it was Sigil (brad) that launched Vanguard not SOE, it wasn't till sevreral months later Brad sold off Vanguard to SOE. (you might want to check your facts sometime)
At some point one has to understand investors are not willing to throw unlimited amounts of money into a endless pit that was/is vanguard.
Brad McQuaid sold to SOE during closed beta, just an FYI. Shortly after launch is when they started nerfing the whole game and bastardizing it. During development there weren't as many SOE people working on it, but there were a decent amount. After they announced SOE fully took it over is when the nerfbat hit. They burnt through the money because they reimagined every continent numerous times and had to remake them (they used to be larger), which actually led to the third smaller continent. This was well before helmets were even in the game. All the money was spent on just getting the environment to work and classes/unreal engine. Brad McQuaid clearly did not understand development costs in the making, and you can't harp on the game for that. He tried to get the game as close to perfect as he can, but so soon after WoW every company just wanted an MMO right now instead of giving it the time and development costs necessary. He didn't understand modern costs, they just wanted a big name to throw at the WoW juggernaut. All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal.
Back when I played EQ2 (before they made major changes to the game, dunno how it is now) the crafting system was top notch. I could go out and fight and gather materials, then go back to the city and craft for hours upon hours.
I loved the EQ2 crafting system, there was an element of risk involved (it was rare, but you could lose all your materials,) and there was so many things you could do with so many different materials. Even a newbie could start crafting and feel like they were doing something productive, but it still took time and effort to become really good at crafting. There was even a separate XP bar for crafting. In all., the system was fun.
Which was one area I found WoW to be lacking. I went from EQ2's brilliant crafting system to the boring, worthless crap that WoW calls a crafting system. I was dissapointed. I've used crafting systems from all sorts of game, from EQ2 to WoW to LOTRO to City of Heroes' invention system to Fallen Earth's good crafting system and while some systems have come close (like Fallen Earth's,) I still think EQ2's was the best and most fun crafting system I've tried.
As someone who played it, it was. It was extremely EQ feeling. Before any nerfs, before any of the handholding they had. It was updated EQ, which is exactly what I wanted it to be. The only bugs I ever had issues with were falling through the world rarely, teleporting into the boat dock (imagine titanic except...in a dock), and the enemies vanishing only to come running back at hyper speed. Though my friend died so many times while trying to get crafting recipes running through high level places that he couldn't gain xp anymore, which would have sucked it if happened to me, but it didn't. In beta everyone was pretty on board with it and really enjoyed it, it was when it was released and all they did was nerf it and do nothing with the bugs and still no flying mounts/helms/etc was when it got murdered. I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay.
I agree for all but the F*****EQ" part.
Imo Vanguard is the best mmorpg out there atm, eq2 is also a good game but litele different from vg. I hope soe will take more things witth them from Vanguard then EQ2 when they set the world of Everquest Next.
Everybody I played with enjoyed it and was having a blast. I still remember my first group, it was for the first dungeon in the Dark Elf area and I grouped with a guy from France. It brought back EQ memories so hard it almost hurt. A lot of people are QQbears about bugs and were acting like the game should have been spotless in closed beta, I don't count them because well....they're stupid. It was a huge game to begin with. When WoW came out, and especially in beta, it was one great big bugfest. The only reason they were able to fix some is because the game is literally sandbox sized as compared to the desert that was vanguard. People just seem to have no grasp on what actually goes into making a game and resort to calling people like the devs useless when they wouldn't know what to do in their shoes.
So I will have to disagree with a few things the op had to say. One being there is no pvp in eq2. We got 2 servers that have a very healthy population and that is all they do is pvp. Also we added battle grounds to the other servers, and I know a lot of folks who do pvp. PvP in eq2 is not my cup of tee, and if I want pvp I will go play counter strike or something like that.
Now on to my second thing giving the population for vanguard a 5/10, Ahem, and 2 servers, I thought they had merged to one server, or that was the plans I read. That should have been a 1/10.
I looked into vanguard and had actually played it during beta and for 3 months after it rolled out. You had to have a great rig to play it. It was bug ridden, and lagged badly. You would get near players and your fps would virtually drag to a crawl. The game lost a ton of players after the first three months. The one thing that can truly be said was for a long time that SOE totaly ignored vanguard, and now they are down to one dev. Vanguard is on life support, and it was even pulled off station access.
It really is a shame it could have been a great game, but I think it had such a bad start, coupled with the soe has no support for it, that soon it will be a memory just like the matrix.
Much of what you point out also applies to EQ2.
Most of the pvp servers have been closed, battlegrounds are heading to the backburner where they will be mostly ignored just as the previous pvp attempts. The majority of eq2 servers are heading for another round of server mergers, because populations are low.
EQ2 was and in some cases is just as buggy and laggy as VG. Something always seems to be plaguing the game.
There really is a lot of similarities between both games and they make for a good comparison. Both have great potential and set out to be the successor to EQ1, but have been held back by various problems of similar natures.
I miss VG... gonna talk my friend into resubing with me again! :D
It would seem that the business practice of managing a business not to fail instead of to succeed is alive and well in the MMO world. With VG and even EQ2 Sony has taken the position of lets keep it profitable and manage costs which results in a slowly descending spiral of death instead of saying hey lets put some money into this product, relaunch it and generate some buzz and if it fails well then at least we know we tried.
The problem with the game business is that it has become a business. This is not to say that making money and keeping the doors isn't important but it seems to be throttling the development and support of games. The latest spasm of throwing things over to F2P is just the final kicks of the corpse as it is being lowered into the coffin.
have to say that author lost all his credibility with me after i read "Diplomacy is also a card game of sorts which to be quite honest, confused me,"
diplomacy was/is imho one of the best thought up and inovative MMORPG systems i saw in years.
thinking about resubbing to VG too.....i played beta too and yeah it had bugs.....but alround the game realy wasnt that bad at release imo.
Vanguard is one of the most under-rated games I've ever seen (and some people think the scores for it here were too high?!). I love the comment I saw early on here about it being 'past its prime'- if you're talking about graphics, then certainly, there's no way that a game made years ago can compare to a newer title by any stretch of the imagination (and especially not when their production team is so small that a global texture update is completely out of the question). However, if you're talking about the game as a whole, then the 'prime' of the game is 'today', as every day the game is more solid than the last. I daresay that the population, all being on one server these days, is better in player-per-square-mile in-game than it was at launch, and perfectly comparable to the experience you'd have on any other MMO that doesn't pack their population into enclosed spaces like chickens in a slaughterhouse.
Sony destroyed a lot of what would have made Vanguard the greatest MMO around simply by purchasing it. They had no intention to make it great, and they proved that when they launched it with beta-level completeness- the anger I felt the first day I read a press report saying that SOE picked up VG a few months before its launch hasn't faded in the slightest even now. All the same, Vanguard is possibly the most immersive, enjoyable, and well-conceived MMO I've ever seen- even if it doesn't quite reach the level of 'perfection' it could have easily achieved if Sony had never gotten involved.
And to all of the people commenting here who have been voicing similar thoughts to my own: I'm with you my brothers and sisters.
As someone who has played both games, I like what both have to offer though I tend to like EQ2 just a little bit more simply from the point of view of character customisation as one progresses through the game and the content available. What VG has though is better done.
I wonder why two SoE games were pitted against each other. People can choose to play both games if they have the Station Pass. It would be more relevent to compare EQ2 to a non-SoE game, wouldn't it? I would compare the value of playing EQ2Ex in comparison to something like RoM for example.
Most of the quality aspects of vanguard have existed in their current state for years already. The immersive nature of the game and the concepts have always been good since release. The graphics are still impressive 3 years later. That was not why I said the game is past its prime.
Obviously it is passed its population prime and merging down to 1 server isn't going to fix the reasons why it got into that situation in the first place. It is also obviously past its prime in terms of development team.
Going beyond that, the game peaked durings its 1-50 era which was some time ago. The expansion of the game to add levels 51-55 added little more than a horrible grind with no equivelent end game to justify the poor game design that was added. Soe left an aborted project live and is never going to finish it, so the game is in a lesser state because of that. Soe spent roughly the first two years of the game revamping and finishing work that Sigil already had in progress when they purchased vanguard. Once that ran out things took a dive as silus put his design ideas into effect and they were not very good.
Maybe the game is getting "more solid than the last", but it has effectively slide down a good deal just to make the possible. Yes I think the game has long since passed its prime and right now is in its death throws.
Lets be very honest here. The dev staff is now one person. They are merging to one server. This game is almost dead, however I know Smedley has said as long as the numbers are there to support the one server they will not close the game.
Lets face it, if it were such a great game, then were are all the folks who have played it, most have moved on except the hard core fan-boy player. Heck SOE does not even advertise it and if you wanted to add it to your station pass it is a bit tricky to find on the web site as it is buried very last one on the second page. Heck SOE does not even advertise EQ2.
If it were so great then were are the flock of folks wanting to play it, I will tell you where they look at the SOE title on and and go no way. Others left the game for valid reasons. Lack of raiding, lack of bug fixing and what not, and most of those will never ever come back.
I re-subbed about 6 months back after given a free 15 day as SOE normal does, and I saw the same bugs, the same lack of folks playing it, and the same immature folks in the regional chat all 5 of them. After my sub ran out I let it lapse again.
We can go on about how great the game was, with it being a huge world and what not, but the game really had major problems that were never fixed.
Honestly I am surprised that even after the mergers it still alive. Kind of reminds me of SWG.
However I got a feeling once SOE gets EQ Next as they call it cranked up; that i where they will be putting most of the eggs in the basket, and even EQ2 will at that point go the way of the do do bird. After all the GU57 and the 3rd coming round of fighter nerfs that followed for eq2, with downgraded particle effects and downgraded graphics, SOE is doing its best to kill that game as well, and then move folks over to the free to play version.
Neither game is worth the time, both games are on their way down, both are minimally supported, and all but the hardcore fans of each gave up a long time ago. Both are in terrible shape and have been "managed" right into the ground.
And as if coincidentally, both are run by SOE.
A company that has an unrivaled ability to turn gold into lead.
(P.S. How is talking about two 5+ year old games, in any way news?)
The "news" is that the 6 year-old games (EQ2, WoW) are still better than the majority of titles released in the past 6 years. Vanguard is only 3 years-old btw (despite managing to being about 10 years behind everyone else in design, but i guess that was sorta the point).
But hey, the next round is upon us! Let's see if Rift/Tera/GW2/SWTOR can do any better than the VG/WAR/AoC round!
EQ2 is still being developed and has had quite a few expansions more than most games of its age. VG hasn't been developed, which is why it's in a bad state, but EQ2 is not in a bad state for a game of its age.
The Extended service is proving to be pretty popular so far and is probably a good way to attract some new players to EQ2. I think overall it was a good decision to open it up. Whether it turns out to be good value for money for the customer remains to be seen.
For a typical MMO, EQ2 has had decent player numbers over the years. They were never stellar, in comparison to WoW's, but in comparison to other games, they have been respectable numbers.
In the case of VG, the problem is that it hasn't been managed that much. It has had bug fixes, but content-wise it hasn't seen much addition to the original game. A lot of players I have spoken to in and out of VG have said they won't subscribe to a game that won't have continuous development because past leveling there isn't a lot to do in VG. It's a vicious circle in that game's case.
I think EQ2 will be around for quite a long time. VG I'm not as hopeful for.
Well, it can't be doing that well, with SOE trying every gimmick in the book to grind out a few more $$$. Station cash (after Smed explictly saying it wouldn't get it), this new F2p-esqe scam, the trading card stuff... none of that would have been necessary had the game actually been doing well. And player numbers (especially paying customers) have reportedly continue to fall.
As for saying EQ2 is doing better than VG, means what exactly? SOE hasn't supported that game for years, and it will shortly be down to one server.
In the end, it doesn't matter much. Both games are in the "old pile" as far as SOE is concerned and all of those games will be getting just enough support to not die, and no more. SOE is putting all the effort and money in to the new things they are shoveling out.
And I agree that VG will get canned before EQ2.
How the hell can a game with nearly no development team outside of two guys who work on the game in their lunch hour score a 5/10?!? Seriously, Vanguard's 'On-Going Development' score should barely rate a 2/10 if you were feeling generous.
It's a tough one but I can see why.
If you look at what Vanguard was at launch as compred to today you willf find a far more stable, less buggy game.
and given that it does have a small team, they still have managed to add some new content.
So, if one looks at the small team and then looks at what they have manged to accomplish, I would say that they deserve something.
Exactly.
Vanguard is on very unstable ground and could be shut down any moment. Sever mergers and deep reduction in staff were the last two big milestones the game had left before it goes into MXO/Planetside mode where it will go with little to no updates. It is already effectively closed down as far as soe is concerned, but soe has no problem leaving upsupported games online if a small amount of people will pay for it. It is a real bummer too, because vanguard has a good deal of good game elements to have been a really successful mmo.
EQ2 might have quantity of expansions, but the quality and depth of those expansions have been rapidly declining for a good while now. Even the game updates moving to a 3 month cycle that promised bigger more robust updates have been rather lacking. EQ2 is in a similar boat as Vanguard. The game peaked some time ago and EQ2X is just an attempt to learn about the f2p market and maybe extent the games life a little longer. Ironically the efforts needed to convert that game are going to further reduce quality and depth of the expansion/game updates down the pipe which is pretty much what put eq2 in the situation it is currently in.
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that VG ranks much higher on my list of favorite MMOs than EQ2 ever will. I absolutlely loved the world of Telon, it really felt alive and immersive as opposed to "new" Norrath which seemed plastic and artificial to me (I hated how most of the surfaces in the game were shiny). I have such fond memories of firing up my customized run-speed song on my bard and exploring the nooks and crannies of Telon.. especially the elven forest areas, such great atmosphere there.
Though no game has recreated the experience of EQ1 for me (honestly, I don't think anything can), VG was probably the closest for me.
I think SoE would try to make as much money as possible regardless of how well their games are doing. Wouldn't you if you were a business?
It's up to the players to decide whether it's good value for money.
EQ2 has done better than VG based on subscription numbers and has had more development and still has more development. If it had the same as VG, there would be no more expacs, no more new content for the cash shop, etc. It's pretty obvious. I'm not necessarily saying it's all good content changes, I'm just saying it's an obviously more dynamic game than VG is right now on the development side of things.
I agree with you that SoE considers VG to be an 'old pile'. I'm not convinced it views EQ2 to be an 'old pile' just yet. It's probably one of their most played games right now. I don't think they can afford to consider it a worthless pile of junk that doesn't need attention.
Agency is up next, but will it be as popular as EQ2 was in its heyday? Remains to be seen...
Edit - Would just like to add that what us players consider to be 'old' might not be what the developers consider to be 'old'. There is a lag between what players see and developers see. SoE doesn't seem to have their thumb on the pulse of the gaming community, but then it seems that anymore less companies do, even the vaunted Blizzard.
Any company could jam their games up with endless amounts of cash grabs in the name of making as much money as possible. Most do not, because there is a balance between what players will accept and doing such things puts those paying customers at risk of becoming non-customers. The old saying of a bird in the hand applies here.
In comparison to the rest of the market no one has been as aggressive and intrusive with their RMT initiatives as soe has and I don't think it is a case of maximinizing profits, but more to do with trying to deal with overall decline.
Soe used to boast that they had over 1 million subscribers between all thier games, but back then they had somewhere around 120 active servers for their games. Today EQ has 16, EQ2 will have maybe 10 legacy servers after the mergers they promised over 6 months ago, SWG should realistically be about 5 and 1 more each for the rest of the station pass games.
I'm not totally disagreeing with you.
I don't think SoE is the worst offender by far. I've tried out quite a few of the other F2A games. SoE is pretty tame on that front, but their prices in the cash shop are steep, especially with no option of getting something like Turbine points for playing the game. As has been pointed out in another thread, SoE has a different goal from Turbine in that Extended is just meant to be an extended trial rather than a different payment option. In that sense, I don't like the SoE model as much as the Turbine model, even though I have a few quibbles with the Turbine model as well.
The danger though is that more companies will follow suit and make their cashgrabs far more intrusive and aggressive. I think there are F2A apologists whose 'valuable' input could end up screwing us players out of good value for money for our entertainment. Yes, these games need to make money but not at the expense of making their games considerably unfun unless one shells out a hefty amount of cash. That's why overall I prefer the subscription model to these hybrid models.
I'm sorry, I should have been clear that I was talking about the pay to play game market. You are right about there being a whole new level of greed in the free to play market.
EQ2X is just one example of soes ventures into this type of action in their games. I can't think of anyone who has gone as far or as frequent as soe has.
I'm in agreement with you Daffid011. I've dealt with SoE off and on over the years since EQ1.
EQ1 was good value for money, the old price for Station Pass was as well.
The problems started coming in with the bait-and-switch from SWG CU to SWG NGE. That was shear greed coming through and I think SoE got slapped pretty hard by that one. They have learned a little from that action, but not enough it seems.
EQ2X is not wholy horrible for some of the other things SoE has done with its customer base. It depends on whether it messes up the game for those on the Live servers. If it doesn't, it will add some revenue in a more or less legitimate way depending on what SoE does with the Extended payment models (I think they should change their gold membership to reflect the normal Live subscription benefits).