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General : Six Must-haves for a Zombie MMO
Posted Mar 09, 2010 by Michael Bitton
MMORPG.com Staff Writer Bill Murphy gives us a rundown of six absolute must-haves for a zombie-themed MMO in this latest edition of The List.
Back in November of last year, Undead Labs announced their formation and the production of something a lot of folks are probably hungering for (pun intended). A zombie-apocalypse themed MMO is in development at the newly founded studio, exclusively for consoles. My friend Adam and I were sitting around chatting about the potential such a title carries. Thanks to a resurgence of popularity in for the undead, there have been a slew of movies, games and other media all about zombies in recent years. Possibly more so than Edward Cullen and his sparkly vampire cousins, zombies are mainstreaming pretty hard these days.
With Jeff Strain at the helm, I think it is in good hands.
Nice list. This game has huge potential...and, if it followed this list I think it would be a massive hit.
But, you forgot one thing:
#7: Zombies can't be the only enemies: We've seen it in movies, comics, and all zombie media. In a post-zombie-apocalypse, humans turn on each other. Gangs and cults form, would-be dictators rise, and nutcases who think they can manipulate zombie populations to their own twisted motives crawl from the slime. Not only should there be PvE gangs, cults, guilds, etc. that are enemies and obstacles, but the game should have optional PvP areas and a way for players to take sides against one another (take a look at the factions in FE for example).
I, for one, long to find the 'town' where an evil overlord has taken over and they have 'gladiator games' or the like using outsiders they find thrown into a ring or field with zombies for entertainment pleasure. A quest where you get captured, have to break free of the game/gladiator combat, and then fight your way free?? Epic quest. Sign me up.
Yes, Jeff Strain being there makes me quite inclined to play this game when made available, though as with any other MMO I will need to play the game before purchasing it. Not to mention it is a f****** zombie MMO, it is potentially a completely new pace and setting for MMOs.
If it is really console exclusive as mentioned, I won't really be able to avoid "hardcore" consoles (I have a Wii, but I will have to grab either a PS3 or a X360), considering there's also Dust coming from CCP and it's another console exclusive title.
fyi the link in the story does not come here, for shame.
Also you forgot the big thing.
BRAINS
BIG JUICY BRAINS
Splattered over the pavement, inventory items, we need physical BRAINZ in some form.
Yeah - bad link. Fix that, guys!
This is a nice addition to the list for sure. It adds almost like a Mad Maxx layer to the game.
I would like to see having to fight for / over supplies. It would be pretty bad ass to have to fight your way to get food/fuel for your town/char and even taking that land over so you own the (limited/unlimited?) supplies.
Also to add onto the idea the OP had about becoming a zombie. Why not allow people as a "penalty" to level up/skill up (sandbox game) a zombie character. Make the progression alot easier than on the human character, but also give it some meaning and purpose.
Fixed this, thanks!
effective shotgun physics
the ability to dismember zombies
children and animal zombies add that extra little zing to the twisted
Odd how as soon as I read "exclusively for consoles." I stopped reading...
Somehow the thought of mixing MMO with something like XBox Live just makes me want to throw up.
What makes zombie movies thrilling is the drama of the chase.
In order for this to be successful, there needs to be permanent death.
Or even better, when you die, you become a zombie of the last level you achieved. Then trying to reach cap really would be a struggle against every PC zombie in the game.
Maybe every once in a while (weekly), do a reset and all the PC zombies return to people (again, at their previous level) and let them try to gain some more XP, finish out some more quests, whatever.
THAT would be fun.
You forgot two things;
1) Carnage
2) More carnage
i know it might impossible from a marketing standpoint, but it would be a mistake to let players be zombies. it would a completely superficial feature that would detract from whatever atmosphere th mindless undead hordes would create.
a zombie mmo has to be centered around preperation and cooperation. if you let people be zombies, you will create a game stopping imbalance in the require human to zombie ratio.
if you make zombies as strong as humans, you will have to reduce the conflict between the two sides. its never supposed to be a "war". its supposed to be trillions upon trillions upon trillions of weak stupid walls of zombie against puny handfuls of stronger and smarter humans. if you give the zombies more strength, you ruin that imbalance.
the numbers of zombie and human are equal, (which a game granting both options would have to strive for, else deliberately make one side a less attractive choice for playing) you remove the whol point of the genre. then its just melee vs ranged.
The Zombie dynamic has to be Human vs Human players, with rising tides of npc zombie providing a lethal and increaing backdrop for tensions sake. a close ended timer is needed too, as the point of the genre isnt just to meander around developing skills, so much as prepare as much as possible before the final doomsday onslaught.
whatever the case, zombie players would ruin the dynamic and cause unfixable abuses. (ie zombies and humans working together, and other retarded scenarios.)
I agree, Cru.
Also, game controlled zombies allow the distributor to add patches at any time with 'variant' zombies to throw in a wrench here and there. You gotta love unpredictable zombie behavior!
You can still have PvP with humans v. humans. No need to make player controlled zombies.
Looks like the forum is mixing up these two threads:
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/272024/General-Six-Musthaves-for-a-Zombie-MMO.html
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/272016/General-GDC-2010-EA-to-Publish-38-Studios-Project-Mercury-.html
Well i think becomming a zombie as a death penalty would be a intresting thing but. It should be at the level of normal npc zombies, you would be really weak and the only advantage youd have over the npc zombies is knowing how to get into a sheltered area.
That advantage can be a big one tho if you would be able to use tools as a zombie. like a fireman axe. you could bust a door down and have the massive zombie flood entering the "safe" area. So the question would be do we want that ? As a player in a safe area you would want total control over all exits wich brings in teamwork, having a PC zombie breaking your doors down with eas wouldnt be a good thing. On the other hand it would give you some randomeness. A safe zone (like a mall) can never be truelly safe at that point and you should always be on your guard. So those are some things to consider.
What i fear more tho are bad players. Players wich intentionally leave doors open without telling anyone. The other players in that safe zone will most likely be overun and die, making a penalty like becomming a zombie a harsh thing because it really was not your fault, you diddn't do anythign stupid. someone just screwed you over.
So im not sure if a zombie death penalty would be all that good. Also the human vs human death penalty would have to be of a difrent level already.
On second thought, a Zombifying (I'm allowed to make words up!) death penalty would probably not go over so well as some others have said. Not because it wouldn't be a fun diversion from playing as a human... but rather because if there are other gamers like me out there, a lot of people would wind up striving to die as often as possible.
I just hope that the Undead Labs creation doesn't amount simply to L4D with levels. I hope there will be more of a world, story, and persistent nature to it than that.
Hmmm just reminds me of my thinking "every topic doesn't need to have an mmo made for it."
Having just played Fallout 3, the idea of a post-apocalyptic zombie MMO would be awesome.
Although, MMOs and consoles? No thanks.
However.. A zombie MMO should never be completely safe, PvP-wise. Let it become like EVE, with some NPC-"police guys" controlling the "safe zones", then have places where you can claim soveignity (again, like EVE) which lets you control an area, as long as you keep the zombies out - but let other players try to kill you and take your place (Hm. Imagine Dawn of the Dead, a group of people have a mall, and one or two guys have a gun shop. They can either help each others or try to kill each others to gain whatever advantage the other guys have).
A lot of things can go wrong with a zombie MMO. Making it too much PvE would kill it for me - even with the PvPZ-zone idea.
Also.. The death penalty. Let the player become a zombie, but a zombie like anyone else [edit: ie. "brainless" in such a way that you can't use tools and so forth]. This way, you avoid the imbalance of having high-level zombies kill a lot of noob humans. [edit: Also, let them respawn in the place they died, after a wait of 1-3 minutes]
When they die as a zombie, they respawn in one of the "safe zones" with nothing but some frayed clothes and a piece of wood.
The economy should be mainly player-controlled, with some basic items sold (and bought) by NPCs.
Let items be crafted, with some penalties when you don't have the "right tools", which can only be aquired by going to a zombie-infested hardware store (or buying it from another player), or having your own place (your "fortress"). Let things that are worthless become part in creating something (like taking a ton of tin cans, filling them with flameable fluid, adding a fuse and hammering the top of the cans shut - woila, a "molotow" made from crap).
This, and most of the things from the list, would make an epic zombie MMO. However, it should not be console only (even though there may be some graphics- and physics-related issues that are easier to surpass with a console) - one will need quick reflexes when a huge wave of zombies suddenly jump you, or a zombie is suddenly behind that door you sudddenly opened.
[Edit: "Human" (not undead) caused death-penalty should be the same as when you die to a zombie - but without the "becoming a zombie"-part, unless of course you've been bitten, in which case, you should still become a zombie.
Making zombiefication a choice could be an option, but I'd not care either way, to be honest. However, then there should be another death penalty (besides losing your gear and such), something like being "groggy" which makes you both dumber (int), weaker (str), less agile (dex), and so forth. Think of the worst hangovers ever, and then multiply them by a thousand.]
As far as #3 goes.... I don't think it needs to be small or instanced... just the more players in one zone or shard, the more zombies. Make it advantageous to split up into smaller groups. You always saw it in the movies, the larger the amount of humans in one place the bigger the buffet for zombies, and the more of them that showed up. After sitting up to 3am to watch Dawn of the Dead again the other night I'd jump for a zombie MMO.
if a game like that ever gets made i will never ever play anything besides that for the rest of my life
I would like to see tactical considerations for the humans and the zombies. Zombies are more numerous at night and much stronger and scarier then. Zombies are vulnerable to fire and there should be ways to set things in the environment on fire. A zombie gets stronger and stronger as it feeds, and weaker if it is new or hasn't fed. And so on. Not just mindless carnage.
TBH instead of instances i would rather just have smaller servers, but not in size, just in player cap and have different starting areas that are random, but if you started with friends you could op to start in the same place....so when you meet other people it would be a great experience, Just picture it you have been alone (or your party has been alone) and you happen to see some other survivors wandering through the streets and then the two parties meet...Man that alone gets me pumped but I have a feeling this may not happen.
if a zombie mmo ever does get made, i hope it doesent use articles like these as any kind of source material. a zombie mmo will invariabley have zombie pc's, tricked up and presented just as another race. they will prolly model the game with several zombie "classes", as well as typical human equivilents, (tanks, rogue, glass cannon etc)
this will attract a large number of consumers off the bat, just due to the zombie appeal, but it will quickly tank, as it will not present any of the emotional gratification that all zombie fiction is based on. i dont know mmorpg.com keeps pumping out statements like "MUST HAVE ZOMBIE PLAYER CHARACTERS" . is this just for the ZOMGPWN aspect?
dont turn the entire concept of zombie into another skin for pvp gankers to wear. thats never why we liked zombie stories. i dont go to zombie movies in hopes of bonding with a particular zombie, and watching his rewarding destiny unfold. i watch to see some hot chick, or a crazy cop with a shotgun, blowing the heads off as many ananomous rotting noones as possible.
remember "land of the dead"? the one with zombie characters slowly progressing and organizing? yeah, it sucked. at least compared to any other zombie story ever made.
Nono, Why classes?
why for the love of god do you want classes? I can understand it from a zombie PoV, but not for humans... hell no a system like EVE training skills to be able to use difrent kind of weapons or no system at all pick up a item and go. If you choose for the later, there could be a training system to be able to upgrade things (vehicles, mechinical weapons,) You could also bring in a specilization tree in the therms of medic, asault, etc etc. But no predetermened classes.
About #1 ..the game should be PvE only..its all about survival.
Nono, Why classes?
why for the love of god do you want classes? I can understand it from a zombie PoV, but not for humans... hell no a system like EVE training skills to be able to use difrent kind of weapons or no system at all pick up a item and go. If you choose for the later, there could be a training system to be able to upgrade things (vehicles, mechinical weapons,) You could also bring in a specilization tree in the therms of medic, asault, etc etc. But no predetermened classes.
if you actually READ my post, youll see im condemning. i know sometimes it can be impossible not to see a word in a sentance and resist the urge to make the simplest association. context is your friend.
i disagree completely, because, i agree it should be about survival. the greatest challenge to surviving is competition, which translates into human vs human pvp.
Exactly. A world where gankers are as much a danger as zombies is an unsafe world! I wanna feel paranoid when I'm playin' this beast.
The trick is making any area as dangerous for gankers as it is for guys trying to play/finish quests. Gankers become a problem in games where they are allowed to roam free across 'lower level' areas. They are the only threat in the area. Make it dangerous for them everywhere and a ganker will think twice before he comes after you because he is in danger of getting overrun by zombies.
Originally posted by [RedDragon]
About #1 ..the game should be PvE only..its all about survival.
Yes the game should be about survival, but then how far do you go for survival. Your own survival has top priority, if you have to backstab another player in order to survive you do it. that option should be available. off course youd have players wich will go on a PC killing fest but those players most likeley wont survive too long.
Ussually those players do not work in large groups and eventually they will have to movefrom their safe place to be able to kill other players. Because they are few in numbers. unless they have alot of weaponry surviving in the midst of the flood will be quit hard.
How i see it the game should be ongoing with a reset. Every lets say 3ish weeks servers should reset to a world at the breakout of the infection. All players would on first login of a new week spawn in a random area. (a house, hospital, gasstation) basicly a random place in the world where you normally would be. At that point. in a few places there is an infected zombie and the infection spreads from there. Your character should retain its progress but you will be itemless exept for things like a cellphone or if your lucky your somewhere on a road in a car.
From that point on you will have to survive. wich at the start will probabply be pretty easy because the infection is on a low level but as time progresses it will become harder because more and more npc's will get infected. And these zombies are healthy. so those guys will be prettty darn fast untill they become weaker because they dont have a food source.
This would be a initial setup. at random times during the weeks there could be outbreaks of stronger zombie types wich can potentially penetrate a safe place like a mall. (sitting ontop of a mall for 3 weeks trowing stuff at mindless zombies down below would get boring after awhile)
and after 3ish weeks the servers reset and we start over but keep our progress with us. There should offcourse be more to do. Give us a reason to leave a safe place. But other then that i think this would be pretty sweet :)
Games like these are only going to play out well on a PC. Oh, and it would be awesome if you could set up some traps aswell :)
actually i have a Mw2 halo 3 etc on consoles as well as cod waw on pc it all works out well. You dont need to be overloaded with a keyboard with buttons. The only disadvantage a console game has really is he cant type (but consoles have usb plugins so problem solved). Nowadays you can change your analogstick speed to your comfort so there issnt any disadvantage compared to a mouse really).
As i said in another forum similar to this if i cant rip off the zombies arm and beat it around the head with its own arm, im OUT.
Secondly and more seriously, i thought of a novel way to approach the zombie versus human ratio. I know a few people dont like the idea of turning into zombies when attacked, as it probably wont work in a MMO. So how about this idea. On launch day on all the servers or shards if its a single server. (im not Clairevoyant) A small town on a random part of the world map has a zombie breakout. Obviously npcs ect tv broadcasts ingame would hint at something going on at a mysterious town. Of course gamers been gamers go off half assed and ill prepared to be the first there and see what happening. Now the twist, for every real toon that dies at the hand of a zombie, generates a carbon copy of the person they just killed. So your a lvl 10 hunter with crap gear thats the type of zombie that spawns. You at end game with all the best gear you try be a hero you die guess what spawns end game zombie with all the gear. So in affect the community controls the volume and quality of zombies. Also as a little added bonus click on a zombie as details of who the player was who spawned it. Someone been an asse and trying to spawn heaps of high zombies in an area. Guess what everyone sees your doing it and forms a mob to kill you and lootz ur phat body boohoo your been an asse you lose all your good gear. Anyways just a thought that also gives a direction on how pvp could go too.
Not sure I have any faith in a apocalyptic zombie mmorpg.
Reasons why...
1/ I hate action zombie games. Just heaps of zombies being mown down by weapons and fast-paced combat as in Left4Dead or Dead Rising. It's pretty soulless imo. I'm not saying those games aren't fun in their mechanics, but they didn't have the attraction that the original trilogy of George A. Romero movies had for me (i.e. very small groups of survivors, limited resources, outnumbered, other rare encounters with small groups of humans who prove an equal threat, a sense of unrelenting doom etc). Those games failed at the zombie genre, even if they are successful FPS-style or GTA-style games with zombie skins.
2/ We already have post-apocalyptic games both single-player and mmorpg e.g. Fallout 3 and Fallen Earth. Although I liked both those games, they didn't have the same melancholy, lonely and dreadful feel that a great old-school zombie movie has. I fear a zombie mmorpg would be similar to Fallen Earth, lots of people running about in the same character skins with stupid names, terrible general chat and a zombie-killing grind.
3/ A mmorpg will probably have hero classes spread amongst a cookie-cutter collection. Even if it was sandbox, they would probably be hero developed, rather than ordinary anti-heroic Joes and Janets as with the original Romero movies. The best zombie movies are inherently misanthropic and critical of human society and human agency, while most mmorpg characters are Gandalfs and Duke-Nuke-Ems; kick-ass and save-the-world types.
4/ Isolation and vulnerability. Keywords that define my favourite zombie movies and my favourite post-apocalyptic movies. MMORPGs, by definition, are the antithesis of that. I just feel...it ain't gonna happen.
5/ The huge success of Left4Dead and Dead Rising, plus the latest gamut of comedy-action zombie movies, means a game will likely jump on that bandwagon. A frantic, slaughterhouse actioner with lots of humour. Not my idea of a creepy zombie feel. And another thing...ain't we got enough of these games already? This is stirring up cold porridge If ever I saw it.
The only positive I could see is with an outfit like bioware making a story-based zombie mmorpg. But again, they prefer larger than life heroes (and their anti-heroes aren't really anti at all, at least in any meaningful sense) and so we are back with Mad-Max 2&3 super zombie killers with gatling guns, sigh.
So, if this is gonna be: (a) Left4Dead2, but an mmorpg, then meh; (b) Biohazard style, but an mmorpg, then meh; (c) Fallen Earth, but with more zombies, then meh.
But if it could be poor old Ben and Barbara holding out in a farmouse while the number of undead relentlessly grow in strength outside, or the four characters from Dawn stealing a helicopter - low on fuel - and trying to find some safe haven in a world gone mad, then yeh, that would be amazing. Ordinary folks caught up in hell, ordinary people running away from the threat and trying to keep their heads and not Pwnzor01 or Gankor or Mesohorny running about with flamethrowers and gatling guns spamming general chat with sexual innuendo.
If there is a zombie mmorpg, it will surely be for the Left4Dead crowd rather the NOTLD crowd.
Regards
Melmoth
wow if they put all the aspects you mention in this post into a zombie game
i would definitely be checking it out
hope the designers read your post Bill and take it to heart
good list
another thing i would want to see in a zombie mmo
is a good variety of zombies
and not always in hordes like they are in left 4 dead
that was always kind of unrealistic to me and killed the feeling for the game
now im not saying dont have the hordes of zombies what kind of zombie game would it be if they weren't there
just not every ware you look theres another horde :P
Oh this could be so great. I would wish for:
The game to spin around cooperation, survival and conflict between players.
Permadeath! You get bitten, your screen turns red and you can watch passively as you rise up and start eating your friends :-D
rather than instnance it to make it small, make the gameworld Huge and non instanced, have no one starting area, but mabey 100. force players to team up with random people they come across, allow a goal of finding other players to increase their odds of servival. do not allow chat across the game world either. keep the players feeling alone, and secluded. have them actualy have to work together to find where other players are. But to keep them away from getting invloved with toomany players, have the Zombies spread more when there are more players. i.e. if zommies did invade, you wouldnt run to cities to get away. you would go out into the country side, less people=less zombies.
(just ideas i have just thought of now, never even crossed my mind to have a zombie mmo, but i am Amped now for one!)
Edit: It would be cool if when someone got cut or something, their blood would atract more zombies too them. Like in a shark atack. make a Deccision, do u kill one of your own to help yourself survive, or do u try to fight it out with him? Make people feel they should turn against people.
Edit again: make there be a limited Number of Supplies... Food, water, guns, amo, Vaccines? This could easily impliment Clan Based PVP. your group of friends has to go and kill that other group so u can gain suplies... and once again, increase your odds of servival.
I want corpse runs.
If I die, I LOSE my gear. It's just that simple. You want the risk? THERE'S the risk. You die, you keep your level but you lose all of your items; weapons, food, etc.
I would also like some kind of feeling of NEED for supplies. Don't make it so harsh, but really, I don't want to just look for metal for bullets, or metal to repair my gun, or another weapon. I want the NECESSITY of eating food, drinking water. Again, not an everyday thing, make it so a bottle of water lasts a day. Hell you can do a lot of cool things with a RATIONING system. You increase your intake of water and/or food and you do more damage, but you lose your supplies faster. You lower your intake of those supplies and you do less damage, but you keep those supplies longer. It's simple, you loot a bottle of water it lasts for a day. You loot a jug, it lasts for four days. Something like that, then the ability to store supplies with friends in a safe house, clans, I mean come on that's what post-apocolyptic-zombie games should be about. SURVIVAL. It's the FUN of running, hiding, hording and living.
And damn it I better be able to loot other players that die. You die? Oh no you have to run to your corpse to get your items, oh too bad I found your corpse first, every man for themselves.
And THAT ALONE is the reason you can't have NPC controlled loot. It has to all be crafted, all weapons need to be crafted, economy MUST be in there (as much as a post-apocolyptic economy can be). If it's not, then dying will suck because you'll lose your Ultimate 999+ Leet Sword that does uber soul damage. And the whining will ensue. I'm sorry but I don't want to see that, I want to see a generic gun that anyone can get, maybe being able to be increased a bit depending on the material players get. But if I get it back, good I don't have to search again, if I don't, I want to say oh well I can always find another.
This game has the potential to be GOOD... I really don't want to see it take a dive all due to what World of Warcraft has done to many good games.
I did enjoy Zombieland a lot, but the idea of having a game created around it, would maybe be nice as FPS with some hours of gameplay. But a MMO with zombies as main theme would probably be too boring for me.
I do play Fallen Earth (post-apocalyptic setting) though, which has zombies that took over towns (think Rest Stop for example). But thats just one of the mobtypes in that game. It has hockeysticks and baseball bats as weapon choice and shotguns, so you could have your zombie fun in there :)
Am I the only one who doesn't want levels, experience, quests, etc., to be in this game? It's a MMO, sure, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be all WoW-y. Have it just be a survival MMO, with no levels or super-abilities or quests or anything. Just survival, that's it. Here's what I would like in this game:
First, let's talk about the environment. I think a completely open-world environment (meaning no invisible barriers or inaccessible areas) that is completely destructible (i.e. no invincible trees or light-posts or whatever that are always in most games) would be fantastic. Of course the more mass an object has the more difficult it is to destroy it, ergo a massive tree could only be cut down via axe or chainsaw. Have trees be climbable and all buildings be accessible. An idea I had, actually, although it would be a lot of work for the programmers, would be to model the game's world after the real life world. This would not only allow more players on each server but would also maximize the possible amount of zombies and would make the amount of time until the server needed to be reset a lot longer. Ergo, you could visit a small town like, say, Cannon Beach, Oregon which has a population of just over 1,000 people and a few in-game days later you could be riding down Times Square with the possibility of 8+ million zombies on your tail.
Next, I'd like to talk about gameplay a little bit. Like I said above, I wouldn't like it if there was XP points and levels. Instead, you could have classes (doctor, soldier , engineer, etc.) that each have their own benefits and handicaps (but more on that later) . On top of that, you could simply get better at using weapons, driving and other objects simply by using them more (ala the Grand Theft Auto series). Whoever, instead of having some ultra-terminator guy who can mow down zombies with a pistol, have the range, accuracy, fire rate, reload time and stopping power of the gun be limited to its quality. Which means no blowing off a zombie's head from a mile away with a shotgun. Most guns (less so with scoped weapons and sniper rifles) would have less stopping power the farther you are away from your target. This'll not only create variety in weapon usage (since shotguns would be incredible up close but really horrible at a distance), it'll help balance them out as well. Make cleaning and re-assembling the guns (perhaps shown in a tutorial in the menu?) a priority for keeping them effective. The last thing you want is to find yourself cornered by a pack of zombies only to find that your shotgun is so clogged with dirt, mud, blood, sweat and water that it won't even fire. Then, as you futilely try to get it working again, they close in on you and rip you to shreds. Another thing I think could be useful is dynamic weather, seasons (and passing years, old age causing declines in your skills, health, speed, etc.) and its effect on your abilities and health. For instance, if it's snowing and well below freezing, you should either bulk up in clothing or find shelter, otherwise you could freeze to death or lose yourself in the storm; if it's sunny and extremely hot, you had better run for shade or cool water to avoid sunburns, skin cancer, and heatstroke. Heavy rain or snow, fog and mist would lower visibility to less than a mile and an extremely dangerous hazard if traveling. They could base the weather patterns of the real-life world as well. They probably could include temperatures, health risks, a forecast, visibility, the date and the time of day either in the HUD or in the menus.
More on gameplay (a new paragraph to make the reading easier ;P). I think that diseases should play a large part in it as well as the type of food you eat. Not only would meat and dairy products be seldom, especially in the country, but eating an all-meat and dairy diet could make your character fat, lethargic and cause other health issues (heart and liver problems). You'd likely want to eat fresh fruits and vegetables (which could would much more bountiful, depending on the location and the season). In that case, you'd have to find the seeds, plant them and fertilize them (perhaps a gardener or cook class could increase the benefits of each crop?). They could also include cigarettes and alcohol which could give short term benefits of calmness and eased nerves (I would like a mental stability feature. The amount of zombies nearby and their moans, as well as potentially slowly zombifying group members could slowly cause your character to go, well, insane (this feature could be one of the filters when searching for a server?) . I would also think that any doctors in the group could get a special book to carry around (this could be found by regular survivors too, but the game would make it more difficult to understand) that lists the symptoms of the game's diseases and their cure or treatment (so the person would last as long as possible). The game would not randomly punish players with incurable diseases, only really giving it to players who eat horribly and smoke and drink a lot. Those players would also be warned via popup or something. Expanding on that, not only would complete dismemberment of zombies (and at the actual place of the injury too! No set places where they lose their arms and legs! No two zombie corpses would be the same!) but humans could also lose limbs to disease, infection and accidents such as falls or vehicle crashes ( I would hope that there would be a large amount of cars to drive as well as different boats, helicopters, bicycles, motorcycles and even airplanes) . Getting into a car crash could also affect your abilities as well. For example, if you got hit in the head and suffered a wound over an eye, blood would drip down over the eye and blur your vision until it either stopped or was cleaned up by your or group mates. Breaking a leg would cause you to limb until treated (and a few days of rest). Speaking of which, sleep would definitely be an important aspect of the game. Your character would need sleep every now and then (preferably more) otherwise it could cause health problems, hallucinations, etc. until finally, if you don't sleep at all for a certain amount of time, you die.
In my version of the game, there would be few NPC's except for the zombies. They would sometimes show up when you're clearing a potential hideout or something but not much other than that. Most of the game would be centered around the human players. You could barricade yourselves in, destroy other groups' barricades, team up or kill each other. You could go at it alone, with friends or with any random person you meet. You could communicate with others instantly, despite location differences, via radio or walkie-talkie. Hopefully they would provide enough noses and eyes and mouths (perhaps customizable like many sports games) so no two people or zombies would look exactly the same. I would favor human-turned-zombies. The disease would be transferable via bodily fluids. However, depending on the location of the infection, its proximity with the brain, the heart, etc., it could take a few days for one to turn. The best part about it would be that you wouldn't have to tell anyone and, again, depending on how you got infected, it may not be overly-clear that you're turning until the last moments. It gets interesting if you imagine the following scenario: you and your group are in a jeep traveling down the highway at, say 75 MPH. You're in the passenger seat with the driver next to you, a couple people in the back and a couple more in the flatbed at the back end of the jeep. You've been infected for a few days but haven't told anyone. You've experienced symptoms (fever, hallucinations, vomiting, etc.) but have tried to keep them to yourself. Finally, you turn. The first thing you do is rip into the neck of the driver with your teeth. The shock and player reaction cause him to jerk the steering wheel and the jeep to flip over and fly off the highway, the car crashes causing the guys in the flatbed to fly off, slam into a tree and be killed instantly. The driver, now rapidly fading, last for a few moments after the crash then turns. You and the driver, now both full zombies, turn your sights on the two guys in the back seat, trapped due to the mangled and twisted metal of the car. You devour them both and set off to join the ranks of the zombies, searching for human flesh.
Well, those are my ideas anyways. Obviously it's a pipe dream and I would be pleasantly surprised if any of that actually was in the game. Hope I don't get flamed for the anti-fantasy element, but yeah... Maybe I'll think of more later.
a Zombie MMO would be great.
I would like the chance to play as a zombie or an undead, though.
1 thing that must be highlighted in a zombie mmo.... it needs to be f*ck*ng scary! There needs to be a true horror element to the game. I don't want some campy game where I just run around making zombie heads explode.
How I would approach it:
Permadeath for individual characters - the player does not play one character, they play a family of characters who are getting killed off one by one (you make a family name but the the first names are randomly generated at character creation). You build up a stable of characters by rescuing members of your family along the way who then become playable (you'll always have random nobody cousins who you can play if you run out of characters). Individual characters however have a very short life expectancy.
Many, many ways to die - lots of incurable diseases that slowly "doom" a character (different incurable infections accumulate like reputations grow in other games - different dooms are in a race to see which one will kill the character). In fact, I'd have all dungeon zones be "you're character is infected as soon as they enter, the goal is just to survive long enough to finish the quest".
Safe zones are ephemeral - desired but temporary. The more people gather in a safe zone, the more services that become available, but people are also bringing in diseases, leaving tracks and so forth - so the safe zone has an overall threat level at which point the zombies overrun and destroy it.
Individual characters have little advancement - skills really only track the progress in a quest. Achievements accumulate as a family photo album of all the famous members of the family now lost and a collection of journals that list quests, dungeons or craftables which have been unlocked for you. Artifacts (heirlooms) are items that if you lose them will find their way back to you (reclaimed either by reaching the site of a character's death or showing up as common loot).
Oh - and buff-heavy character archetypes would invoke their buffs by yelling catch-phrases and taking cool stances ( "this is my boom-stick!" )
I don't like the idea of making it "small." If you have a massive world filled with many cities and large country sides and forests, you don't need to make it small. I like the idea of maybe going city to city to human "save zones" for protection. If i wanted a small game i would just simply play left 4 dead. Would be awesome to amass an army of countless players to retake a city that's been overrun. Just make the game large that it simply spreads the players out. Give them incentives to explore for new places to live away from civilization.
This.
Console only = Fail.
No instancing MMORPG.com editorial.
NO INSTANCING. Stop pushing developers agenda.
If players decide to gather in groups, thats the social virtual environment addapting to the situation. No developer hand limiting or restricting players freedom or "human factor". People would get together and stick together and organize themselfs accordingly. Instancing is suspension of disbelief, I have a bunch of friends, we are smart, we stick together, the game cant simply tell us "we cant stay together because this will make the content too easy", off course, thats how we addapted to survive.
I've tended to see instancing as a way to let players control the experience by avoiding having outsiders intrude on their group's adventure - more grief-control than game balance.
(but yeah, I do notice in some games, developers try a little too hard to achieve balance... rather than letting players find their own difficulty level ... I could see in a zombie game the exactly same zone being used as both low-level and high-level content: for two completely different, yet satisfying, game experiences based on the power level of the characters: "surviving the utterly impossible swarm" vs "superhero mowing them down")
This.
Console only = Fail.
So, they're basically making a persistent world L4D....will love to see how they handle commnication, i.e. chat boxes. In my opinion, that is the single biggest issue with console mmos: sitting 10 feet away from a tv is not conducive to being able to track communications between team, global broadcast, local chat, npcs, and status changes in the world.
The world doesn't need a zombie MMO.... doesn't matter what it does or doesn't have.
On #3
Remember Hellgate: London?
Kind of like that... if they would.
I'd have to say that an zombe themed MMO would be hard to satisfy seeing has players would expect all kinds of variety in the creatures they kill.. I for one, would like to just kill more and more zombies but we know not all ppl are like me,and most of the want other stuff like mutants and whatnot... Also on 3 i'd also have to disagree cause their could be a dark environment in which there where many alls,levels,ruins,etc. to explora although that for this to work the game would need to not have leveled areas,which in my opinion makes it even better cause you can just has fast get a lvl 1-3 creature has you can get a 45-50 and also the numbers and creature AI would count for much..Having some sort of Wrath ghouls that could attack you from the shadows and split you from your team,having some rotten zombie with a mouth for a belly pull you out or distracting you,leading you away... Yes a Zombie themed MMO would be possible but: a) It would need major budget; b) It would take years to make; C) Most definetly last but not least, it would never satisfy you enough.
#1 you can't really make a MMO strictly for consoles. The vast majority of consoles have no keyboard or mouse and without them the ability to communicate is vastly reduced hence where do you get a sense of community?
So what this will probably be more a FPS than a MMO. Hence it will appeal to the FPS far more than the MMO crowd.
In the end, this will relegate this to strictly a small niche audience.
Secret World on the other hand will be a full MMO with zombies and make this game look like an also ran.
Technically, you can get a small keyboard to type with on the 360, and I think I remember hearing any USB plug-in-and-use keyboard or mouse will work with the ps3 as well.
Besides, why restrict a zombie mmo to the requirements that every other MMO has? Putting it on consoles, where voice chat is predominate, would be an interesting attempt. Players would only be able to hear each other if they are within a circle of lets say 5 yards. They have a toggle to "shout" in game, increasing that 5 yards to 20. Shouting though can attract zombies, and if you are in a building or some area that has an "echo" switch active, anything louder than basic talking would instantly echo, and increase the range to maybe 50 yards, but at the same time increases the range of detection.
PvP would be integral to the zombie survival genre. Thing is, if you are going to kill someone, there will be blood on your hands, and nothing attracts zombies faster than fresh blood. Why apply this upon the attacker instead of locally? Prevents exploits. If it was applied only locally, you open up a whole can of griefing. A system that applies it upon both though might work, who knows.
Here's how I see it. First off, you don't choose exactly where you start off, no you can choose the general area, but there could be plenty of random starting zones you could be thrust into. Just crashed your car, woke up in a hospital, maybe even getting up in what you think is just another day, only to see your neighbors tearing each other apart in your back yard.
There is no "quick" travel. There is a map, but you gotta get it updated, and doing that requires other players help. You'll start out with a local map, but you'll need other players to tell you where safe zones are at, or find them yourself. This encourages both socializing and exploration. Going out alone though would be dangerous as hell, so it also encourages groups.
Resources are limited. Food, water, all that is based upon server populations. Wood and crops can be grown, cattle can be bred and raised for milk, meat, and fur, as can other animals. This doesn't have to completely fall within player responsibilities, but the players would have to ensure the cattle and plants get clean food and water, else they could become contaminated and be useless (for the most part). Water would need to be gotten from water purification plants near reservoirs, wells, or even stolen. They all present their own unique dangers. Purification plants would make a lot of noise, attracting zombies, requiring you to kill the zombies, and would also require regular maintenance. Wells are questionable, and aren't reliable for long-term survival. Stealing of course, requires you to either kill, or threaten other players who might have control of the facilities to get the water.
Weather would also help in the above situations, but isn't something to be relied upon.
Transportation would only come in vehicles (or horses if you breed them), which require their own maintenance, and must be stored in special areas, otherwise other players could steal it. Vehicles would come in various forms, from motorcycles to large trucks, with their own fuel requirements, maintenance needs, and weight loads.
Crafting would have to be very robust and allow a large extent of customization for most anything, with appropriate benefits and consequences applied.
There is nothing wrong in making a Zombie MMO action-oriented, I'd rather not have to have hotbars for everything, including crafting. If I equip a weapon, I should get better with it over time through training with it. If I want to craft something, I should expect to be at a work-bench specific for it. Otherwise crafting would be impossible, or would suffer a hit to the item's overall quality.
When you create a character, you should be able to choose out a basic "archetype" for your character. Nothing long-lasting, but it will set you towards the right direction in what you want:
Military background would give you access to more combat oriented techniques, Engineer/Technician would allow you to repair, Handyman would be crafting oriented, medical would be focused more on healing, Huntsman would be a small mix of military and handyman, and so on.
Just a few things I'd love to see. Please though, no player zombies. It would be hard enough to justify why they are so much better than basic rank and file zombie "A" or "B", and maybe even better than Zombie "N". If it is included, it would have to be done damn right, otherwise the experiences on both sides would be worse off.
Well if it has the kill with anything label on it like Dead Rising and Zombie play like Left 4 Dead then I'm sold. =D
In Zombie games, the only fear is death.
So, you need some drastic punishment for death in this mmo to suceed.
If you die, and then you just revive or what not, it takes away a total edge in zombie based stories.
It's all about survival. I feel that maybe, not necessary make humans become zombies after they die, but if players die, they drop all their equipment, weapons and materials. This way, gankers can go out and kill other humans for their resources for their own survival, which makes it more competitive.
"exclusively for consoles"
This is the reason it will fail...
*sigh*
What a slew of excellent ideas. Though some of us have presented some amazing concepts, we should always keep in mind that when considering a new type of MMO the basics should be considered first. That is, before getting into the grit of whether or not avatars should be able to permanently lose an eyelash or some-such, we might want to first discuss concepts like storyline, combat, community/communication and the like. To that effect I don't want to get Hepatitis B and have a permanent -5 to endurance for the rest of my character's life, nor do I want to permanently lose an arm; I'd just reroll. I digress . . .
If it's an MMO (open, seamless, instanced, or otherwise) there has to be a reason to continue to play and that means there has to be a rich storyline. I agree with the many posters who stated that what games are missing today is a hint of mystery and something that has the potential to pull a few emotional strings (fear, hope, compassion, anger, etc . . . perhaps in that order). Grant it, it's likely going to be a Zombie hack-and-slash-fest, and it should be fun, but an MMO should inherently offer more than a few fleeting happy moments of pseudo-immersion.
While keeping things in perspective, we have to remember not to shun an entire play-style when developing a game. If you're a company producing an MMO you simply cannot afford to exclude PvP or PvE (conceptually or financially). Personally, I don't enjoy PvP. I feel that if people are in survival-mode there should be some form of inherent understanding that killing each other just isn't very nice; but even I have to remember that not everyone is nice. Personally (and selfishly) I'd reason that anyone looking to capitalize on such an apocalyptic tragedy is a "bad guy" and should therefore be represented by an enemy NPC; however, what of the millions of people out there that find PvP fun? There are three choices that come to mind: 1. PvP arenas/areas 2. Permanent and/or Temporary PvP flags or 3. PvP Servers. What do you guys think?
On the topic of enemies, there's no doubt about it, they should be diverse and numerous. Zombies should range from barely-moving, near-skeletal shambles of life to full-on mutated creatures from the "source" . . . and they shouldn't HAVE to be human either, let's have some fun (tactfully). Mutations that are accelerated, new variants of the virus that move to different species, changes in the transmission of the virus and environmental factors should all play a huge part of the game; causing a huge variation in the necessary gear, skills/abilities and tactics needed to complete specific objectives.
As a side note to enemies: While children are human and just as susceptible to viral infections as anyone else there are those who would make life hell for any studio that published a game where you could frag a zombie minor, so I'd rather not push it. I'm all for realism, but I can't say I would feel any less immersed in a game if children were left out of a zombie nuke-stravaganza. I wouldn't be offended if they WERE integrated into a game, but that doesn't mean killing children isn't taking things too far (yes even zombie children, so don't give me that "Oh, c'mon, they're already dead" rant). I draw the line at celebrating (or garnering achievements based on) the death of any zombie whose original host was under 18; and though I may largely be alone in that concept on this forum, I can honestly say that it's largely based on the fact that I have my own little ones. So, my bias here might be unfair. Forgive me, if you will.
Economy, on the other hand, is another touchy subject and will depend largely on when the story takes place, but we can keep some things in check. Settlements will need auction-houses and NPC vendors alike. I don't care how or where the major settlements are established, those two things should be readily available for those that want to wind down with a few economic power-plays before logging off for the night. That aside, guns, knives, grenades, body armor and perhaps prestigious clothing (minus the holes) should all be up for trade. Current forms of currency in a post-apocolytic world would nearly be wiped out, so the dev team will have to be creative here. A new "stamped" paper currency based on the total value of things traded-in while adventuring (rings, necklaces, vases, pre-apocalyptic currency and other rare trinkets of the "old world") could be assigned values. This would be much like the trade note system in Asheron's Call but would work well in this scenario (a world possibly devoid of currency) as well.
Should housing be available? Sure, why not? There are bound to be quite a few individuals who've voluntarily left their homes and hit the streets in desperate search for fresh human brains, so they likely won't need that 42nd floor penthouse anymore, right? That being said, some one is going to have to own, maintain and protect that building so patrons should expect to have to pay some form of premium. Or do you think that the zombies would be smart enough (and I use the term "smart" loosely here) to know that certain buildings are flooded with fresh meat and would therefore always (eventually) succumb to a massive horde of undead with a severe case of the munchies?
Mounts? Well, a car would be nice; however, fuel, oil changes, and the occasional part would be tough to come by no doubt. This is where crafting may come into play. Obviously there aren't going to be your standard alchemy and blacksmithing classes but perhaps mechanic, patchwork armor smithing, tinkering, ammunitions modification and perhaps even construction/demolition could be viable crafting classes. I'd love to seem some functional and original implementations of a crafting system in a game of this genre. So long as they are no bio-engineered DNA modifiers that allow you to throw shadow bombs from your finger tips or shoot lasers form your eyes (Bioshock FAIL if you ask me, sorry).
I'd love to hear ideas about death as well as death penalties. Let's face it, if you're not a zombie (and becoming a zombie is a contagious disease) then you are at risk of becoming a zombie yourself. So, how do you handle reincarnation? This is where things get tricky. People in an MMO are going to be attached to their characters and their character's progression, so options at this point are a few-fold: 1. Focus nothing on the individual characters and merely re-spawn as a new/random individual 2. Bring some form of cloning or reincarnation device into play 3. Become a zombie and find your way to a recovery house before the zombie disease relieves you of ALL sanity (after eating someone or something to auto-regenerate the flesh you've lost, yum) or 4. Throw in some form of cheesy scene where someone finds a character and they "magically" appear back in a medical facility, lucky to have made it out without contracting the disease of course. Personally, I like the cloning and recovery house ideas the best, but there may be others. As far as a death penalty, I find that instituting a temporary de-buff (or one that has to be worked off by moving around and getting the blood flowing) should suffice; something along the lines of "recovery sickness" or "new body acclamation", depending on the venue chosen for re-spawning.
Lastly (for now), and probably most importantly, would be character progression. I'm all about progressing a character according to the abilities/skills that they actually use. While I used to love the grind and leveling in most MMO's (and I admittedly still do) it's just a 'hint' unrealistic. One thing I co believe in is skill levels; and bonuses to those skills when they've reached a certain level. I find that the system Oblivion/Fallout3 employs feels most accurate all-in-all. If you use a certain tactic more than others then as that tactic improves you should be rewarded with a bonus to that skill-set (either a few more skill points, a special ability or a list that includes each). Ranged or melee, handgun or rifle, pyrotechnics or sneaking . . . how you want to play, any way you want to play, should be available and equally able to be developed to the very end. Doing so should also leave the ability to go back to easier areas of the map and progress other skills. That is, if you've figured out a way to sneak your character through the best elite zones then you should have the ability to take that same character back to the easy zones to try and take them out with your fledgling pyrotechnics skill, no need to reroll!
These are all just ideas, but they stay on the foundation level. Other things that have to be considered are innumerable, but I think these are the big ones. I'll leave everyone on this note: If it's an MMO and it's console-only, I will be very disappointed. I prefer the keyboard and mouse for any and all MMO-based games, and many others do as well. That's not to say that a console MMO isn't possible, but it IS to say that PC-based MMO's aren't the primary form of MMO for no reason. That being said, the possibilities remain endless and I, of course, remain hopeful!
i stopped reading the above post after i saw the "just be nice to eachother" request.
i mean no disrespect by ignoring that wall of text, and only commenting on a single point. The Zombie genre is the meanest and most cannabalistic of sci fi stories. to not have pvp would be absurd. only other players can present a PERSISTANT CHALLENGE, one that cannot be avoided simply by logging off if things get too hard. this should be a cornerstone of any zombie mmo, that hyper evolution is in play, and if you dont fight for what you have, others will fight harder and take it.
in a zombie mmo, this principle would apply to resources, territory, and social standing. tight well oiled clans would appear, as efficient death squads, battling it out to claim the safest corner to hole up in for the night. with constantly increasing zombie numbers, clan interaction would be a continous experiment in such concepts of clan cooperation, war, multiclan council making, and organizing mass fronts and defences, relying on questionable allies and downright enemies as the zombie numbers increase.
this would make for a much more thrilling and addictive game than any cookie cutter pve "collect 15 shoe laces" til max level game
would be cool if they followed Zombie Survival Guide. made it so using loud weapons like firearms attracts A LOT of zombies.
this sort of game has so much potential, just "surviving" gives so many game mechanics. however given what MMOs are today my guess is it will be a shallow grindfest. i hope, but doubt, i'm wrong.
an actual death penalty would be nice. losing your stuff but keeping skills, that sorta thing. guess we'll see how it goes when its pushed out too early.
if they have PvPZ areas, they should make it so you control a pack of zombies. This is the only real downside of Lotro PvMP concept. Zombies are supposed to outnumber the living, but just like in Lotro (just orcs/spiders/wargs/etc), there just aren't enough people like me that would rather be a zombie, orc, spider, etc than a human. It's been on my wishlist for a long time that Lotro makes it so you control a warband of 3 or 4. Really you would just play your main Zombie, then you could "infect" (essentially like hiring a mercenary) a couple more NPC Zombies that just follow you and do actions based on what you do. If you throw flying pukeballs at a player each zombie would react with a skill of thier own.
Nice article as usual William. Couple of things popped into my head while reading these.
#6 More than Guns
Vehicles. OOOOHHHH YES! Undeath Race 2000 anyone? Salvage a car, bolt on some "custom accessories" like a snowplow, machetes sticking out from the sides, etc. and you've got a sweeeet ride muhahah...
#8 Too Small
People need to remember that MMOs have had some BIG, BIG areas. Even EQ1 has serious real estate out there (hours of foot running to cross just the original continent) and Darkfall has much more. Mortal Online might have more as well (need to check that).
So space isn't really a problem as much as play environments are. It'd be a ton of work to make enough play areas for a lot of people. But making the cities total death traps (so filled with zombies you ain't even getting IN alive, much less out) will take care of a lot of that problem, as well as set the stage for a ton of future expansions to "take back the cities". And that leaves you with making smaller towns and such, which by area typically have a lot of the same kind of construction. So you can reuse models a lot.
Add fire and explosion damage and you can skip a lot of the detail too - one burned out building looks very much like the next.
I'm thinking this would be a great "popcorn" MMO - one you can log into and play for a couple hours to have a good time, then log back out without any guilt.
HAH Finally an MMO game mechanic that supports PERMADEATH! Nice one.
Totally disagree with the acceptance of gankers though. They're losers who ruin everything they touch to feed their delusions of power, so we need to make sure there's no place for them in game.
None taken, but perhaps you should have read just a bit further. You see, I didn't want to remove PvP, I was merely stating my personal preference regarding PvP; but that was in NO way my take of how the game should be developed. To be fair, we've got three types of people: 1. PvP 2. PvE and 3. Both. Now if you're developing a game, who do you cater to?
At this point I'd like to reference the young bull and the old bull analogy. That is to say, we should take the safe approach; take our time and satisfy everyone. I'm a PvE player, you're a PvP player, and I think that there is room on the server for both of us (Character Flags or NPC Guilds); or perhaps room on one server for me and my ilk and room on another for you and yours.
I'm not talking me, me, me, I'm talking us, us, us. It's perfectly fine for you to shun the entire PvE crowd; and if it were your game you could cut off your nose to spite your face on any given day, but that doesn't make your decision good business sense and it certainly doesn't seek to entertain everyone as fairly as possible (don't even THINK about the "life isn't fair" analogy, don't do it, lol).
Figuring it's just plain common sense to satisfy as many paying patrons as possible (in reference to Pv? options alone) how would you do it?
yet another thing swg did great
you had the option to be open pvp, factional pvp, or non-pvp all on the same server
there comes a point when saticifying as large an audience as possible breaks th artistic integrity of a creation. not designing this game to pvp centered in all ways, would be akin to leaving out the zombies to make sure the zombie hating community signed up.
Woah, that's a little extreme. Unfortunately, your statements are also completely unfounded AND untrue. You simply cannot take accommodating a play-style and compare it to removing the game's entire storyline. As should be obvious, storyline and play-style are two separate items. Though to YOU they are one-in-the-same, YOU don't make up the entirety of all population (nor do you appear to care to account for it, sadly enough). It would indeed inhibit YOUR artistic creativity (and possibly a few others who agree), but not mine (and likely just as many others, whether they speak up or not).
My father always told me never to argue with the ignorant because those passing by might not be able to tell the difference; but I do want you to know that it's not good to be so completely unwilling to see something from another individual's point-of-view. You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine, but the next time you do it you should back it up with logic that connects, flows or perhaps even just plain works.
Creating a zombie/post-apocalyptic MMO does not mean mandatory PvP, period. If so, I can think of many other titles that shouldn't have gone on to be the blockbusters they've become. It's really a non-argument and although you can continue to throw as many inconsistencies as you want at the topic you'll never get away from the fact that YOUR way will NEVER be everyone's way and that's a fact.
It's a little extreme, but only a little. Now, ignoring the half of the post in the middle where you accuse Cruoris of not backing his position with logic, which he did a post or two before that, while effectively doing that same thing yourself, a zombie post-apocalyptic MMO most definitely does mean mandatory PvP, unless you really want the entire thing to feel like nothing than another WoW with a different skin. If there's no pvp, no limited resources, then it's not a zombie apocalypse game at all. It's the competition and feeling of paranoid desparation that sets the entire feel of the genre. When civilization falls, then civilization has fallen. This doesn't exclude anyone that doesn't want to actively pvp, but it does make you worry about more than just mindless npc enemies.
People will be more inclined to, at least temporarily, team up with other humans, but oftentimes that will only be temporary, unless they quickly become friends.
"While keeping things in perspective, we have to remember not to shun an entire play-style when developing a game. If you're a company producing an MMO you simply cannot afford to exclude PvP or PvE (conceptually or financially). Personally, I don't enjoy PvP. I feel that if people are in survival-mode there should be some form of inherent understanding that killing each other just isn't very nice; but even I have to remember that not everyone is nice. Personally (and selfishly) I'd reason that anyone looking to capitalize on such an apocalyptic tragedy is a "bad guy" and should therefore be represented by an enemy NPC; however, what of the millions of people out there that find PvP fun? There are three choices that come to mind: 1. PvP arenas/areas 2. Permanent and/or Temporary PvP flags or 3. PvP Servers. What do you guys think?"
That's a quote from your post that started the back and forth. You talk about how Cruoris and his ilk are seeking to exclude an entire playstyle, but you seem to be the only one wanting to do so. The very point of survival mode is that there is NO inherent understanding that killing each other just isn't very nice, that's the point of survival mode. You want to survive, if you have to wipe somebody else out to do so, then you must do what you must. If someone is capitalizing on an apocalyptic tragedy, they may be a bad guy, they may just be someone trying to forge something from the ashes. Either way, there's no reason that they should be an NPC, rather than a player that built or helped to build a small community/guild/clan.
Your solutions for the millions that find pvp fun, or at least admit that the risk is half of the interest of a zombie/apocalypse story? 1. Screw over pvp and make it meaningless, while simutaneously ruining whatever immersion might have been building. 2. Make people play by different rules, allowed to be attacked by everyone, but not able to attack everyone.....so, screw over everyone that wants to do pvp, while allowing people that don't actually want to play the game to have their asses wiped. This may sound harsh, but if resources are limited, this creates an unfair playing field. If resources are limitless, then it's not a zombie apocalypse with the resources drained due to the panicked masses, now is it? 3. Honestly, I don't even know how to respond to this one properly, but I'll try. PvP servers and non pvp servers just sound like a really bad idea for this type of game. The entire point seems to be to do something different from the standard MMOs that are out there right now, but this would split the population of players, and automatically make a lot of really interesting communities inside the game never happen.
Yes, there will be gankers, but, if I'm reading into Cruoris's posts correctly, he's the type of pvper like I am, and would join me in hunting down said gankers. We want a meaningful mix of playstyles in the game, with all of them included, even carebears like you. Admittedly, this means we won't be able to choose what we get to do every single time, since there might be a huge multi-clan battle going on one day(s), but it makes it matter, because such a battle might change the territory lines in that section of city.
Edit: Damn, you got me to respond with a wall of text to your wall of text. I may be trollfood.
Dlunas, you hit the nail on the head, and said everyhing ive been staggaring around with much greater eloquence than i am able to expound.
A game as i was describing would be perfect setting for the much desired show down between the gankers and the builders, of the greater pvp world.
anyone who wants to call me ignorant, and quote toungue in cheek sayings their old pappy said, whenever they get pwned in a debate, can go right ahead.
my dad always said that trying to apply a framework centered on the concept of "nice" to a cannabalistic undead apocalypse mmo was pretty ignorant to, though it's totally fine to debate with anyone who supports the topic with their opinions.
if i had a nickel everytime somone came back at one of my forum arguements with the accusation of it being unfounded, id finance the damn zombie game myself, and its 3 expacs, by now.
*edit did i say unfounded? i meant to say "completely unfounded and untrue!"
I love walls of text and you're not trollfood. Your post wasn't bad . . . but your point-of-view never leaves your inner rump; and since I don't need to stick my head up there to understand I'll simply "shoot from the hip" with this reply:
You're as thick headed and dense (or more so) than Cruoris. Let's me be even MORE clear here, I didn't accuse anyone, I stated a FACT. PvP isn't for everyone and neither of you appear to have the common sense to recognize that inescapable truth (FACT). I haven't contradicted myself since I've never stated what will or won't, should or shouldn't, could or couldn't be done (FACT). I've also not enforced my idea of an apocalyptic game on ANYONE, as you've both have selfishly done many times over (wasting your time, though you obviously know it not, FACT).
CareBear or not, I like PvE and I would love to play a zombie-infested apocalyptic world that offered me respite when I didn't feel like defending myself from others (like you and your new friend Cruoris for example). I'm also not alone, no matter how many PvP friends of yours post to this forum from here on out. If I stand outspokenly alone, fine . . . but I'm not alone in my views, end of story.
Please keep in mind that I'm not telling you what to think of the genre and I'm not telling the developers to ONLY listen to the way I think a MMO of this sort should be developed. I was simply asking how others would handle the development of a game if they had the common sense to attempt to satisfy both play styles. That's it, nothing more.
I respect both of your opinions and I can completely see how you'd feel that an apocalyptic world should be PvP-based, I get it. I'm merely stating that I disagree, so do others, so now you have to deal with that. I get that you two would simply leave my ilk out (there, I used the word "ilk" to refer to myself and perhaps others like me, are you going to be okay? Do you need some hot chocolate and a cookie or something?). You two are done, we get it, you're selfish and you don't care what the "CareBears" think, fine. Now, shut up.
Does anyone who DOES care about more than themselves have any good ideas about how to run a game of the post-apocalypse in such a way that everyone could be happy?
i choose to speak up :P
i agree with this post
though some may feel a game is lacking in something if its not completely open pvp
but to many of us my self included having someone else who decides to engage us in pvp decide what were going to do with our time in the game for many of us is at best a great irritation and at worse a completely game killing experience weather we win or not pvp is just not something we wish to engage in when were doing something else
so to many of us open pvp tends to be a game killing experience
i like games like in swg ware you had the option to go in and out of pvp active status
You mean you agree with another selfish PvP-centered post? Say it isn't so . . . shocked, stunned even. You said he has eloquence? LOL!
The above quote from you sounds like a trend, it must be everyone ELSE'S problem. It couldn't be that you're just flat out wrong sometimes, could it? Unfortunately, I know a couple grown men who still live at home with their mothers and blame the world because they can't keep a job; always asking me how I can afford a nice house in a development with lots of friends, a beautiful wife, children, etc, etc. They say the same exact things you two do the same exact way. That's also a coincidence I'm sure, so I apologize for the implication.
I enjoy a good debate . . . it's saddening to read that I'll definitely never get one from either of you.
Look, I'd like to play a post-apocalyptic game, but if it's PvP and console only, you won't find me there (which works out for the both of you); but I'm not the only person who won't be playing . . . not by a long shot. That sort of information is very important to ANY would-be game developer, no matter which direction they end up taking things.
I wish them all the luck in the world.
Thank you Inle, but unfortunately we're falling on the most selfish of def ears here. I couldn't have said it better myself. We both know that the complexities of a post-apocalyptic world are too grand to accommodate all facets of realism; but most importantly it's a GAME. I'd like to play (play being the key term here) independently of how someone else would prefer to direct my online game time; that being, fighting some 10-year-old off for 5 hours instead of getting through the next quest or storyline. Excellent call.
If we wanted more realism we'd have to make it so that our REAL age, height, weight and even strength, coordination, personality and intelligence were tested before our avatars is made FOR us. It's all just ridiculous at this point, but I truly appreciate your voice. It has been heard, at least by me, and has no less respect than our self-centered and argumentative MMO brethren stuck on making PvP the mandatory choice for everyone.
why are you being so vulgar and insulting?
i like open pvp, and i am a carebear. i do not play consoles. i like open pvp, because it feels like my ingame choices have consequences, and are not just repeatable, infinitely duplicatable pre-fab quests, that do no impact the game world.
i hate gankers, and thats why i enjoy playing games where i can organize with other like me, and defeat the more immature and selfish players.
im finding this pve vs pvp war a little tiresome. especially when my opponents are so detracting and mouth frothy as this.
your stereotypes are so well defined. allow me to inform you that indeed, a pvper like me can have a wife, own a physical therapy clinic, and not live with my mother, just as much as pve-er can.
whatever your brilliant "comeback" to my request for you to chill out happens to be, try to maintain a little perspective.
and thats your preference
and the very reason i liked how swg approached this issue
you had the option to flag your self as pvp active or not pvp active
and could switch between the two accordingly (not in the middle of combat of course lol :P )
and this made room for both the pvp and non pvp play styles
how ever it did not leave room for the griefing open pvp play style
and i in no way mean to say that all people who like open pvp like griefing
but lets face it its a natural and almost certain consequence of open pvp
no mater what system they throw into it to discourage griefing its just human nature
and the way swg approached it made for a happy middle in the whole pvp vs pve issue
hell at least having a pvp and a non pvp server option should be the norm in mmo's but for some silly misguided reason more and more these days its no longer the norm ( i blame the miss use of focus groups since they really shouldent be used for mmo design :P)
and the companys loose potential customers because of it
i agree, it would be a harsh game. intensely so. the only solution to being ganked would be to join or create a guild (which i think should be called gangs, for the style and purpose of this thread)
in my (and perhaps ONLY my) opinion, this type of game needs to be just as intensely social, as it is hazardous. I understand how annoying it can in a TYPICAL QUEST DRIVEN mmo, to be suddenly pked by a 9 yeared on a toon 40 levels higher than you.
im positing that this is not the correct genre to be anything like the typically quest driven style. Given the nature of the conflicts of the zombie story, a much freer dynamic will have to be erected for players to determine their goals. the overriding theme of all aspects must be to build tension. this game will thrive on tension building on all levels, and players not having clear cut missions and consequences will invoke a perpetual sense of action and tension.
this would translate into gangs being given a much wider array of choices on how to play or establish mandates. rather than being strapped into a set template for character building, the natural reactions of opposing gangs will be the prime determining factor of what is wise or foolish.
in typical MMO's, survival is not a mandate, as the players death seldom causes any fluctuation in the surrounding world, beyond the possible failure of a quest, which in most cases, can be picked up again elsewhere. this is not the same thing as players battling eachother to for the resources required to build and defend the bases they've chosen, or the locales they seek to conquer.
i dont want to get bogged down in what i think would be the perfect template, only that, i do not believe a PvE game would be able to capture the same shrieking piano wire tension that competiive social PvP would, and if this game is not geared towards maximizing tension, i think the zombie background is a wasted tool.
Wow . . . I can't believe it continues. These are the last words I say regarding PvP:
The only reason I debate with anyone on this subject is because I truly believe that a website like MMORPG.com can actually influence the development of a game. To reason that no one on a dev team is going to seek guidance from user comments on various websites would be foolish, especially from a a website that more-strictly deals with the project they're considering undertaking. In any case, I don't want the loud, immature and selfish minority influencing the titles I see come down the line in the future. Any great game being developed should do it's best to suit the play style of as many people as possible. So, here I am, throwing my credibility in the trash to argue that one or two human beings should be respectful and understanding of other peoples' points of view. It's not rocket science, it's Kindergarten 101. If you don't have respect for other people's "visions," regardless of what YOUR'S are, then you have no right attempting to influence a game at all. There is enough room for all of us. Let's move on.
Does anyone still reading this forum who hasn't given up long ago have any other original and interesting ideas for the game? How about setting? Modern day? Perhaps the apocalypse was modern day but the game actually takes place 30 years later or so?
::: crickets :::
i think that it should take place shortly after what ever virus makes the zombies becomes a full on outbreak and shortly after community set up defences and blockades to ward off the zombies but they get in anyways :P
not quite "post apocalyptic yet"
and the over all goal or story of the game is it is job of player militias ,the player military members, etc(what ever other classes they can think of) to investigate and rectify all claims of undead and/or monster activity and to hopefully try and prevent it from becoming the apocalypse
would have to have some sort of crafting classes since im a big fan of crafting :D
and should take place in a big city or if vehicles are included make it an entire state with big city's small towns wooded and rural areas :D all buildings should be explorable hell if your going to do any instancing make it a high paying quest to clear some sky rises or office buildings of zombies
and there should be a variety of different types of zombies both human and other and some flat out monsters evolved from the virus ala resident evil's zombie virus template
just a few ideas :D
All good stuff, all of it. I like the idea of being able to shift or perhaps even help to decide whether or not it becomes (or doesn't become) a complete apocalypse. Even if that's too large-scale, it would be fun to at least take part in the storyline at that level and influence the gravity of a planned decision (that is to say, if an apocalypse was inevitable storyline-wise perhaps we could lessen the effect or maybe even make it worse).
I think cars and such, being so open-ended, would force the devs to make the various territories instanced. If not, all the vehicles would be wrecked or out of gas in a matter of weeks (if even THAT long). Vehicles WOULD sort of go hand-in-hand though, so perhaps put them in but also realize that their integration would have to be nothing short of revolutionary in order to keep the obvious advantages they have from being too game-altering.
A big city with lots of high-rises and objectives to perhaps "fetch an heirloom from the apartment complex at the corner of 22nd and Broadway" for some handgun ammunition would be awesome. Perhaps we could even steal and ride a car there together, lol.
Zombie variety, just like I noted in my previous unreadably-long post, would be great as well. When I was playing Resident Evil and I ran across variants of the disease in plants, animals and otherwise I didn't find myself disappointed; no, I found my self drawn right in (and perhaps into a new pair of underwear at times too, lol).
just picture it :D
your given a quest from city hall
a tenent forced to abandon there home petitioned them to find a group willing to find some irreplaceable family keepsake
so city hall gives you a batch of things people have asked you to find for them at such and such apartment high rise including lost family members and they ask you to do a general sweep of the building
first 5 floors perfectly normal a hand full of zombies maybe a confused child that was left behind for the player to rescue and 1 or 2 of the things you were asked to find in the building and keys to some of the rooms above the first 5 floors
you reach the 5th floor walls are torn and general damages to everything around you and a couple bodies torn to pices (perhaps some of the people you were meant to find)
you reach the 6th floor more damage the lights aren't working right and flickr on and off slowly sometimes leaving you in darkness for 10-20 sec at a time
you eventually reach the 7th floor same thing with the light but when you can see you notice that the walls are coverd in chunks of flesh and blood and organs and other substances
something has turned this floor into a nest something far worse then your run of the mill zombie you hear strange noises but you dont know ware they are coming from.
it is now up to you and your team to either cheese it out of there and save your own lives and turn in what little you were able to find
or to seek out what horror has made this floor its home and try to exterminate it
....... im sorry got into the zone for a bit there and this could get really long if i keep going lol :P
hell if i keep going i could probably think of an entire days worth of content to be in just one apartment highrise lol :P
which gives a game such as this the potential to be bloody huge (pun intended ) if you had the right team of developers willing to put in the time to come up with true horror and not just wave after wave of zombies :D
Nice scenario, reminiscent of my experiences with the best of zombie shooters. All that fun and yet that still leaves subway stations, industrial parks, shipping yards, docked freighters, warehouses, grocery stores . . . the real fun would never have to end.
One thing I've thought about storyline-wise is . . . once you've cleaned out a city (or a large portion of one), the bodies are burned (smells like a possible "collect 10 of these" quest) and it's time to move on, where do you go? Another city perhaps? Investigate what the source was? Follow clues or KNOW what the source is and go after it? Perhaps make the whole game in one city that has been quarantined or make the whole "world" open ended? I figure you've got to contain a large area in order to leave it all open (Fallout 3) or make it instanced and just keep adding zones (Guild Wars), etc. Just a few things to consider. Personally, I like Oblivion/Asheron's Call/Vanguard environments, that is . . . seamless. That's one of the biggest factors that determines my level of dedication to a game.
I hope the devs at least consider the possibility of an open/seamless world.
Again, I'm not sure why so many people want quests and levels and such. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you or anything, it's just that quests and levels, like I said before, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. That kind of play is fine in a more relaxed game like WoW or Guild Wars or whatever (hopefully I didn't just embarrass myself by saying that. I've never played any actual MMO, besides a day or two of WoW. :D) but in a game that has such a usually intense subject (there's a reason why most of the zombie themed movies are in the horror genre) there shouldn't be any of that. I guess it would alright if there were "guilds" (or, as Cruoris called them, gangs, since that would indeed be more fitting in this case) but as long they're player-controlled. There's probably going to be a bunch of guys who just run around killing others in that case, but that's something we'd have to deal with, I guess. I don't want any of this invincible traders or guild leaders or whatever who tell you what they want and then just stand around while you do all the work. Either all NPC humans can be killed and actually run around fighting zombies and finding a stronghold and actually adapting to the environment or they shouldn't have them at all. There should be at least a tiny bit of realism in this game at least.
Well, that's all I have to say about the subject for now, I guess. I hope this conservation hasn't died out though. :p
Yeah, just make it a "sandbox" PvE game where everyone collaborates to rebuild civilization, one piece at a time. Encourage grouping for raids on zombie strongholds just to get decent weapons and enough ammo to progress. Do the same to get salvaged materials for crafting your own strongholds, repairing vehicles, making tools, weapons, etc.
Make the combat exciting though, no dumb auto-targeting. Developers apparently haven't noticed that their ostensible market for auto-targeting - the younger age group who "can't handle manual aiming" - has been playing the Call of Duty series on their consoles for years now.
Edit: forgot that the concept of strongholds would be friggin' awesome in this context. You'd have to take and hold a place to live and defend the various facilities that keep it working - water and electricity. You'd probably have to keep the generators repaired and the fuel supplies full to keep the services running too, or out go the lights. This could make for a very engaging play experience, esp. if you do live messaging "your town's fuel is running low", "your town's east wall has been breached by zombies" kind of thing.
Oh, now there's an interesting idea I'm all for. Strongholds that MUST be player maintained. I'd like to see everyone start at one stronghold and acquire (or even build) others that must be maintained as well. This is something that, if you ask me, would keep the crafters crafting, the explorers exploring, and the killers killing . . . because they simply HAVE to in order to survive (more comfortably in the least). It would be neat if everyone's first quest was to find, repair and or build a one-way radio so that they could receive messages from their "home" stronghold in case it requires something to remain stable. Sure it would be frustrating to be 99% of the way through a difficult quest and get something on your radio; however, if you're home is on fire you'd still want to know about it regardless. A sense of necessity, done in the right context and tied to things worth defending, can be a fun sense of purpose and, most of all, re-play-ability.
Doesn't this more or less describe Fallen Earth?
Also.. consoles? MMO? Ouch. Reality check!
In many ways, yes it does. Well, the difference is that the apocalypse in this now theoretical game we're discussing would be brought on by some form of zombie infestation/virus (and I haven't delved far enough into the meat of Fallen Earth to put all the pieces of origin together). That said, I'm actually playing Fallen Earth now. I hadn't played it yet and I wanted to get a feel for the community and game dynamics, but you're right there are certainly going to be a few similarities. Although I might borrow a few ideas from various MMO's currently in production, I'd still start from scratch if I had the choice. From what I've seen, Fallen Earth isn't exactly tearing up the MMO charts and I don't find it frightening or "gory" in the very least.
I think the cloning idea needs to be done better (at least better than Fallen Earth) or perhaps even go with rescue houses instead. I have to admit that somehow being able to infinitely clone myself in a post-apocalyptic world a bit of a stretch, especially considering the fact that it's neigh impossible to merely arm yourself with a board, much less maintain cloning equipment. I'm enjoying myself none-the-less. I can also say that swapping between FPS and MMO mode, while somewhat fun, is a bit cumbersome.
. . . and I'm not sure that they will release the game on console only but that seams to be the predominant rumor. That's a deal-killer for me, so I hope it ends up being a multi-platform release (if it becomes a release at all).
Yeah, just make it a "sandbox" PvE game where everyone collaborates to rebuild civilization, one piece at a time. Encourage grouping for raids on zombie strongholds just to get decent weapons and enough ammo to progress. Do the same to get salvaged materials for crafting your own strongholds, repairing vehicles, making tools, weapons, etc.
Make the combat exciting though, no dumb auto-targeting. Developers apparently haven't noticed that their ostensible market for auto-targeting - the younger age group who "can't handle manual aiming" - has been playing the Call of Duty series on their consoles for years now.
Edit: forgot that the concept of strongholds would be friggin' awesome in this context. You'd have to take and hold a place to live and defend the various facilities that keep it working - water and electricity. You'd probably have to keep the generators repaired and the fuel supplies full to keep the services running too, or out go the lights. This could make for a very engaging play experience, esp. if you do live messaging "your town's fuel is running low", "your town's east wall has been breached by zombies" kind of thing.
i love these ideas :D
and would like to suggest although not shore if it would work if were going game system instead of pc but it might
that instead of levels it be a skill based system so players can dictate who they are in the game like in the old swg instead of being just another cookie cutter 1out of 4-8 possibility clone environment like so many other games
No levels is hardcore, but skill-based is the way to go in my book. Not that it speaks for much but it's got my vote!
That's a good idea for the quest lines - your first mission is to find a way to get in contact with and get to a safe(r) place for your char. Real survival immersion stuff, with the journey being dangerous, you finding clues and guideposts and newbie gear along the way.
By "live messaging", I actually meant out of game messaging, like FB / texting / twitter / email. Maybe a little too far towards crackddictive, but it was just a random thought.
I honestly believe that no player zombies--- corpse runs, like everquest. You die, you lose ALL your gear.
The game should be modeled on EvE... Crafting, pvp, controlling areas--- you name it.
Only the starter towns protected by NPCS.
For 'towns' I'm thinking Wurm online---which, if you haven't played, is REALLY REALLY awesome. You would have to cut down trees to make your walls, repair the walls when zombies attacked...the works. It would be amazing.
k...this is only a web based game...but if I had a Zombie based MMORPG...this is what I would like it to be modeled after...
http://www.urbandead.com/ PvP/Human vs Zombie/Human vs Human...just make it real time and 3D...also you could make a free to play version...Basic Zombie is free to play...no spamming as all you can say is "Brains..."
No Safe Zones...other than what is carved out by the Players...
I feel a little late on the posting, but I think i think many people overlooked that they stated they were making a zombie MMO, not a zombie MMORPG, so you do not neccisarily need any type of leveling spectrum at all. Everyone seems to want this game to be WoW with zombie skins. What I think this game should be is a survival game, if anyones watched a zombie movie it's not about trying to be the glorious famed hero in the area. It's simply surviving. Therefor I think this game should follow in a true zombie scenarios footsteps and revolve your character around surviving, and not just the zombies, but resources such as food and water, and people too, and if you fail to survive the consequences should be dire, such as the character truly dying, as in being scrapped, and no more. This would drive people to really do what they needed to survive, such as form groups, but at the same time be untrusting of everyone in the group at the same time, because they know that the others also will do what they have to so they can survive. I believe that a good zombie game will be one where you don't blindly follow everyone you see.
Resource based structure sounds like fun. When I think of a Zombie MMO, I see aspects from Die2Nite except being made more substancal, more...interactable and permement? And make EVERYTHING cost something...
Perhaps small communities instanced together for a few days as you scrape together your existance until you and your community are ready to move to a greater challenge with great items and resources. We are all treasure hunters at the end of the day, make it all about getting hold of unique stuff.
Permadeath would fit in with the ambience methinks, but I know everyone has varied opinions about the mythic one-life-to-live rule.
Sorry, I must let you know here.
PS3 and Xbox 360 both have keyboard support built in. It's plug and play, so I could take this very keyboard I'm using to type this message, and plug it straight into my console and violia, it works perfectly. I honestly can't say this for the Wii, as I've never personally tried it, but as a serious console it's....not really a contender.
Also, console gaming have a very well intergrated feature into them using mics. Speaking to people is generally accepted as a quicker way to communicate with people over typing. As a MMO feature, could mean towns could be bustling with chatter (Actually quite like the sound of that).
So you see, communication isn't really an issue. :)
Six Must Haves for a Zombie MMO.
1) Must have Zombies
2) Must be a MMO.
3) Must involve interacting with said aforementioned Zombies
4) Involvement of aforementioned interacting with Zombies must occur in previously mentioned MMO.
5) Must be online.
6) Must be massively multiplayer.
Id like to say that most of the coments have great ideas for this type of game and i agree but I want to add that this game should be a third person shooter just like gears of war and not like left 4 dead it would just be better perspective for a game like this type.
One "must-have" in order for any MMO to succeed: do not be exclusively for consoles.
LMAO! @ a console MMO! I can't wait till this game launches and the person who thought that an exclusively console MMO was a good idea, gets a rude awakening.
2 years into GW2, he leaves to form Undead Labs. There is no love to be found. X-Box Indie...egads...
Kind of a shame about the zombie thing - regular post apocalyptic games are almost non-existent, much less anything dealing with zombies in a modern error. Don't get the zombie feel from CoX in the least...meh.
I dont agree with everything on this list but most seem like great ideas. i also agree that permadeath seems good for this game, would be an even bigger kicker if you killed your old toon with your new one lol.
I also agree that guns cant be the only weapon seeing how in a post-ap world supplies would eventually dry up seeing as there is no way to keep producing items on a mass scale. would keep things spicy knowing that if i wasted my ammo it would be easy to get more right away.
and about keeping the server size small i cant say i agree with this but i think it could be counter by having a large landscape and initially scattering players around so that they can find fellow survivors but wouldnt feel safe in a city on day 1