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General : D&D 4th Edition - Learning from MMOs
Posted Jun 20, 2008 by Jon Wood
Dungeons & Dragons is considered by many to be the forefather of the modern-day MMO. With the recent release of Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, we are seeing evidence that new Dungeons and Dragons design is being informed by MMOs. In this article, Managing Editor Jon Wood discusses some of the specific elements of the new edition that draw in elements of our genre of video game.
There is little doubt that Dungeons and Dragons (and other early pen and paper games) helped to pave the way for the MMORPG genre. So much so that when co-creator Gary Gygax passed away, many MMORPGers mourned the loss.
It has always been easy to look at MMOs (and all RPGs, really) and find the influences that pen and paper game like Dungeons and Dragons (DnD) have had on them, but the most recent edition of the popular tabletop game turns all of that on its ear. It seems that the student had become the teacher, the circle of life is complete, and a number of other clichés that I could use to say that the recently released 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons looks less like the template for MMORPGs and more like a product of them.
Whether Wizards of the Coast (the current developers of Dungeons and Dragons) designed this new edition of the game to be more appealing to the MMORPG gamer crowd or whether it is simply being informed by a popular game type difficult to say, but there are a number of parallels that should be explored:
Read the article here.
While I can agree that some MMORPG features add to the overall gameplay of PnP RPGs, it is said to see the most important part of a PnP RPG-- the actually Role-Playing -- fall to the side just like in MMORPGs today.
That is why I like the virtual game table. You have all the tools you need to play a focused, story-driven campaign with a DM and players. MMOs haven't been able to foster this environment so Wizards is being smart with their online offering.
The only thing that's learned is the generation gap in gaming.
D&D 3E opened up a whole ton of opprotunity and options for the D&D community to explore, and it explored it well. A great base system that was open to fan made creations to explore the possibilities of character. A detailed system for skills and cross classing that allowed people to develop the heroes they want to play -- both in story and in statistics.
4E, while I accept its existence and own the books, reminds me that the "new wave" of gamers come from a different background than we grew up with. We were the generation that lived off Nintendo and Text Based Games for the longest time, grew up with 2D sprites and slow dial up connections.
Even when we played the graphical games, to a degree we had to use our imaginations.
And we loved to tinker, loved to explore, love to mod.
Today, the kids have everything on demand, graphics that leave nothing to the imagination, and game systems that are more about balance and progression tracks than customization and exploration of development and styles.
Remember the games that had useless classes that were fun to role play? Now, everyone of equal level is capable and balanced with their tiered skill trees to be equally effective. The "Role" in Role Play is no longer the character, the story, and the involvement.....it's merely your position on the team. Who cares if you're the dragon-blooded prince of a fallen kingdom; do you know how to tank and hold aggro? That scholarly man over there, who's traveled the world and seen so many things and read so many lores-- they don't care about that, they need to know if he can stay back and heal or if he's spec'd for DoT/DPS.
This isn't a total bash on 4E....it's me feeling old all of a sudden.
Except there isn't an online offering. And by making the game more MMO friendly its dumbed down for WoW kiddies.
One thing a lot of people are forgetting as they rush to make snarky criticisms of the new edition -- these are just the core rulebooks.
These books are meant only as a foundation, the bare basics you need in order to be able to play the game. If you tried to play D&D using ONLY the core rulebooks of any previous edition, you might be surprised at how shallow the game would feel.
Yes, there's no question that some things have been left out of the 4E core rulebooks that were considered "basic" in previous editions, but I would argue that maybe the previous editions tried to cover a bit too much in their PH and DMG. I can think of a lot of things in there that are NOT needed and that my groups never used.
In particular, a lot of the complaints about role-playing and flavor seem silly to me. These things are best covered by house rules anyway. If you absolutely cannot wait for a supplement to cover the rules you need, just use the old rules you already know and love. Why is that so hard?
If your group is inclined to roleplay, then roleplay is going to happen. If your players are the kind who like to create elaborate character histories, then that is what they are going to do. No amount of text included in (or left out of) a rulebook can change any of that.
9 out of 10 MMO gamers probably haven't played and never will play PnP. Gearing PnP rules toward MMO guidelines is stupid. Make a separate ruleset for that stuff.
I should start this response by saying that I'm really personally enjoying the new rules.
That being said, I think that what you said about roleplaying is valid, but I have a number of members of my group who have voiced this concern to me. It's as though a lack of rules in the core rulebooks invalidates the form of nuanced character that they are able to build without resorting to house rules.
The great thing about DnD is that house rules can fix just about any gripe people may have with the game. The point though, is that there seems to be a trend toward steamlining the fine details away (in terms of the core rulebooks).
I also want to say that from a personal perspective, as far as rules of that nature go, I'm not likley to pay them nearly as much heed if they're in a later-released supplement. I don't want to have to go back after new rules are made and suddenly have my character know things (statistically speaking) that he didn't know before.
It's all personal preference in the ned and all this article really analyzes is the rules as they are presented in the PHB.
QFT. I think there is just the right amount of roleplaying information that should have been added to the manuals. I chuckle everything I read people freaking out because they excepted the book to spend chapter after chapter telling you how to use your imagination. Not rocket science here you know. Personally I like the 4E rules and have enjoyed reading over them since I picked up on release day.
And to those that cry about the game being geared too much towards minutures or using the D&D Insider deal, get a life, these are just tools to make your life easier. And if you don't want to buy the official minitures use coins or whatever. After all the game is about imagination right?
Are there MMO elements with D&D 4e that were not there in prior editions including the 3.5 reboot? Sure. Is this a bad thing if the product will start appealing to a wider audience? I
Darn kids, get off of my 2nd ed. DnD books!
Teenagers these days, no respect for old-school roleplaying! Why, I remember the Time of Troubles...
People need to tattoo this statement (which another player also made mention of).
You don't have to take any rule as gold. You can change anything you want. You can add anything you want.
I believe Gary Gygax stated that the rules were just guidelines.
Heck, in my campaings, I only had players role for battles and saving throws. Everything else was much like a book they were playing in. With a bit of danger to make them feel that they might fail.
Because otherwise it comes down to being a bean counter. No drama, no anything other than charts and tables.
Roleplaying doesn't rely on game mechanics! Roleplaying only falls by the way side when you let it.
Roleplaying doesn't rely on game mechanics! Roleplaying only falls by the way side when you let it.
Exactly TookyG. People seem to be upset that they can't spend skill points on Rope Use and Pottery anymore, as if anyone who ever understood the mechanics would ever waste points on that crap. Seems to be a duplicitous arguement going on here. A bunch of people upset that "WotC is catering to a no imagination no roleplay MMO demographic" by removing a bunch of crap no one used and isn't needed if you have imagination and can roleplay.
It's an If you want to be a tailor or a side show freak or something, tell your DM. I'm sure you guys can figure something out on your own, you shouldn't need books and rules unless you have no imagination.
Exactly TookyG. People seem to be upset that they can't spend skill points on Rope Use and Pottery anymore, as if anyone who ever understood the mechanics would ever waste points on that crap. Seems to be a duplicitous arguement going on here. A bunch of people upset that "WotC is catering to a no imagination no roleplay MMO demographic" by removing a bunch of crap no one used and isn't needed if you have imagination and can roleplay.
It's an If you want to be a tailor or a side show freak or something, tell your DM. I'm sure you guys can figure something out on your own, you shouldn't need books and rules unless you have no imagination.
I disagree with the "as if anyone who ever understood the mechanics would ever waste points on that crap".
I know that I and my own group understood the mechanics quite well. There was something awesome about taking points and putting them into a character building skill. I liked being able to make a conscious decision to not go with an obvious statistical advantage and instead opt for something different.
I would also like to point out that I think you're right about the DM being able to work something out, but as I've said before, it's a lack of support for that particular play style. The same thing has happened in MMOs. I think that it is easy for developers to say that players will use their own imaginations for character building stuff and role-play elements. I think that probably has a lot to do with the reason that we so seldom see MMO mechanics that concentrate on who you are as an individual.
If we want to see a real departure from the guided experince, do the same as everyone esle, be the same as everyone else, but be in a world WITH everyone else, mechanics that would make characters feel more individual would be more than welcome.
Just sayin...
Exactly TookyG. People seem to be upset that they can't spend skill points on Rope Use and Pottery anymore, as if anyone who ever understood the mechanics would ever waste points on that crap. Seems to be a duplicitous arguement going on here. A bunch of people upset that "WotC is catering to a no imagination no roleplay MMO demographic" by removing a bunch of crap no one used and isn't needed if you have imagination and can roleplay.
It's an If you want to be a tailor or a side show freak or something, tell your DM. I'm sure you guys can figure something out on your own, you shouldn't need books and rules unless you have no imagination.
I disagree with the "as if anyone who ever understood the mechanics would ever waste points on that crap".
I know that I and my own group understood the mechanics quite well. There was something awesome about taking points and putting them into a character building skill. I liked being able to make a conscious decision to not go with an obvious statistical advantage and instead opt for something different.
I would also like to point out that I think you're right about the DM being able to work something out, but as I've said before, it's a lack of support for that particular play style. The same thing has happened in MMOs. I think that it is easy for developers to say that players will use their own imaginations for character building stuff and role-play elements. I think that probably has a lot to do with the reason that we so seldom see MMO mechanics that concentrate on who you are as an individual.
If we want to see a real departure from the guided experince, do the same as everyone esle, be the same as everyone else, but be in a world WITH everyone else, mechanics that would make characters feel more individual would be more than welcome.
Just sayin...
nah, I can't really buy that.
any system that has taken into account such mundane things such as rope making or fishing (pen and paper I'm speaking about) has gone too far and has taken itself WAY too seriously.
Online games probably don't have it because they would have to create systems to incorporate it, quests that incorporate it, animations, code, etc.
Heck, even the climbing in AoC seems to be a bit forced. Or it's like the ability to create items in Neverwinter Nights but the reality is you really didn't need to have it as it just feels extra.
Quite frankly, as a former dungeon master I would just give players the ability to make rope or be able to fish. If it got out of hand I might say "choose x skills from a list that you can be proficient at and we'll start".
Because quite frankly that's the bean counter type of playing that I'm talking about. The willingness to quantify every little thing so that the session becomes less about adventure and more about rolling dice and making sure that points are assigned.
It starts to become adventure gaming for actuarials. It's dry and it bogs down gaming.
edit: having said that I've read the article about the 4th edtion rules and I wouldn't purchase them. Seems too forced. I would say that players should just use former rulesets and disregard these rules if you feel the same.
Dungeons and Dragons should not try to be more like video games, video games should try to be more like Dungeons and Dragons.
exactly this is why I Hate WoW mostly, and its really not that i hate WoW but i hate what WOW has done to the MMO genre and RPG genre as a whole.
just when it seemed like MMOs were starting to evolve into living breathing worlds without class restrictions and what not. WoW came along and destroyed that whole concept (maybe not destroyed but definately pushed that concept back quite a number of years).
and now this with the godfather of RPGs deevolving aka streamlining themselves so that any WoW kiddy can understand.
its just sad what WOW has done to the industry
...so, if I understand this correctly, they're ADDING the need for the holy trinity to D&D? Tank, healer, CC/DPS...
That's the one part I always hated about MMORPGs, you always needed a specific group setup. D&D you could really pull off any sort of group setup without need for specific classes (though some form of healing obviously helped quite a bit in making stuff easier).
This should never happen in a pen and paper RPG: "Ooh, I wanna play a rogue" "actually, we need a tank, you're rolling fighter" "...screw that *leaves*" "ok guys guess we can't play tonight, we don't have the right group setup"
I am very wary of this myself.
That being said, however, a scenario like hat would only happen if the players let it.
Also, it's been going on for fae longer than MMOs. I played 1st edition (blue box) games in the early 80's where people thought one guy should play a cleric because we might need healing. Yes, I'm old.
I agree with the poster who said MMORPGs should be trying to be like DnD instead of the other way around. DnD allowed for more options, character customization, and yes, it even provided tools for RP,so that you didn't have to create them yourself. I mean, if someone has already went through the trouble of creating a great way to involve RP into the mechanics, why reinvent the wheel?
The older MMORPGs never really centered content around Tank, Healer, DPS, CC. You could invite the first 8 people into a group and do fine if you play smart. In fact, it is more fun to play with an unoptimized group. Having a Tank, Healer, DPS, and CC is just something optimizers found out to be the easiest/best way to beat content.
I have the 3.5E rulebook sitting right here. The author of this article stated that there wasn't any defined roles. Well, I'm reading right here in the "Role" section under each class, and it outlines the role for that particular class. Now, it didn't take into account the effect multi-classing had on that classes role, but the statistics alone required you to choose a class that complimented the other.
The only thing this new ruleset is doing, from what I hear, is forcing you to have one of each role in your group, which wasn't required before. In my opinion, this is a bad move and it displeases me to hear they are doing that. We need more freedom, not less. If there is anything MMORPGs have tought us, it is that lack of freedom in character customization makes things super boring.
I didn't read the thread, so I don't know if anyone said it, but...
Gygax is turning in his grave. They're destroying his franchise a couple of months after his death. Carrion feeders, or what?
This thread is rather entertaining to me. My turn! I noticed some people keying in on the rope use skill from old DnD. SOOO, I am gonna step out and say in my campaigns it is actually a VERY useful skill. Every good DM can tell you (and their group) that yeah, no shit you know how to handle a rope, and even a two year old can tie a knot in a rope. Not a big deal, and that is not what the skill of rope use was about. Not everyone has the ability to tie more complex knots, certain hitches that are taught in military and other such areas. Learning those are not "Standard" to those professions in our life. Guess what, you have to "Spend a skill point" to know how to do so. And when the robots come to over throw the world, and you capture some of them, it may pay off to have someone in your group, or immediate area who knows how to secure restraints over our future over lords and delay the process a bit.
As for converting the DnD system into one that uses the Trinity system, the idea sickens me. Just stick with old fashioned multi classing.
(Hope people know how to wade through sarcasm. Anyone bring popcorn? I've got drinks!)
D&D4e has me worried. I haven't played it, so for all I know the rules may be utter awesomesauce, with sugar on top. But some of the stuff I hear... Like the Unholy Trinity showing up (even as some of the better MMOs work to dispense with it), like the stricter class structures, are parts of what turned me away from D&D in the first place.
Nowadays, I play games like Exalted 2e, White Wolf's New World Of Darkness games, The Riddle of Steel and Dogs in the Vineyard. Freedom-based point-build systems rule, here, with some guidance for the player who wants a particular goal. TROS, for example, has you choose your priorities between things like combat skill, magic ability, riches, noncombat skills, social status and whatnot. White Wolf's games set you up with archetypes of sorts (a Dawn Caste exalted is a warrior, a Twilight Caste is a sage and artisan, for example), but let you choose your own traits freely.
To be honest, D&D4e to me sounds like the kind of game that's intended for 12-year-old WoW-heads... But hey, maybe it'll work as a gateway drug and get them interested in 'real' roleplaying games?
The latest incarnation of D&D is a singular abomination. If third edition was like watching a loved one suffer a stroke, then this is AIDS. Where is the verisimilitude in tanking, for Christ's sake?
I'll see you in game. =)
D&D4e is nothing more than a new d20 game. They could of, and quite possibly should of, named it something different, because it is. The only reason it has the D&D name attached to it is because they own it, and they can do whatever they want with it. If named anything else, it wouldn't of sold.
World of Warcraft already has a table top game, so over all the title of the post is a lie, D&D 4th Edition isn't learning from MMO's, they're changing D&D enough to be like WoW PnP so they can try and get some more customers.
I won't be playing it.
MMORPGs and PnP table top games are two different beasts, they offer completely different things, completely different environments. Both games give you the ability to play a role, hence role playing games. PnP table top games, you get to decide your role, you and the players of the campaign shape an ever changing world. In MMORPGs the role you play is defined by people you will never meet, in a world that rarely changes, and usually in ways just to keep customers and shut up people who incessantly whine.
i played it. i hated the fact that they went for the WoW style of MMO's rather than the more intellectual (and in my opinion better) games. however after playing it i think the system is playable and fun. the thing that makes it so much fun is the new idea of everyone being able to do something in combat. gone are the days when the wizard hesitates to use that last magic missile.
as far as the PnP>>MMO>>PnP thing goes i would MUCH rather see an MMO with limited powers (mana sucks). i prefer to see things like choose your spells before and instance or once every hour rather than a cast crappy (compared to what they should/could be) weak spells.
same thing in 4E really. except they counteracted the weak spells (at will spells) by adding in the "special powers" that can only be used once every 5 minutes or once a day
I must say I am impressed from what I am seeing and from what I have read thus far I find it far more appealing than the 3.0 or the 3.5 incantations of DnD's game engine. I like how it seems they finally realized that making complex rules for a game engine that obviously could not handle it would no longer work unless they created a completely different game engine . Instead of creating a new engine to run a complex game (which would alienate the entire DnD populace and reduce the number of incoming gamers due to its complexity and far removal from the previous game engine) they gutted the entire rule system surrounding their game and created a whole different rule set which I find refreshing. I also think this change finally puts DnD in its proper place as a high powered heroic fantasy game and not a half ass simulator with super powers. Honestly any one talking about an intellectual challenge or true customization shouldn’t have ever been being playing DnD instead you should have headed to GURPS for that level of play.
/sigh
AD&D inspired the cookie cutter MMOs like WoW.
Now AD&D "learns" from those...
It's a shame so many people think pen&paper RPGs = AD&D, because that means:
- the good p&p RPGs are only played by a few privileged ones,
- MMOs get inspired by AD&D too much, and we see no diversity on top of silly inherited game mechanics.
trust me, if he hated the new rules then he would have said something about it, he would have refused to do PR for it (he did quite a bit)
I've DM'ed 2nd and 3rd/3.5 ed.
In my latest campaign, based on 3.5 rules, I introduced what I called "world skills," which were basically a set of additional skills that people could take and put points into on top of the usual DnD skills. These included things like fishing, gardening, drink mixing, ladder crafting, and so on. My players absolutely loved it, because it allowed them to make things they would usually just be able to RP, and turn them into actual game mechanics with real uses. For example the guy who could mix drinks could make dangerous potions that could be used as flask weapons. The guy who could fish could buy tackle and bait, then go to the deep seas and fish for treasure. So mundane skills DO have a use, but it depends on how creative your players are. Fortunately I play with a very experienced group, where everyone has over 20 years of DnD experience.
After reading through the 4th ed core books, I've come to the conclusion that in order to play it I'd have to seriously gut the rules. 3/3.5 needed some editing on my part to make it playable for my campaigns, 4 will need a lot. That said, 4's combat is somewhat streamlined on some fronts, which is nice, but a lot of things are missing or simply wrong. It does not, in my opinion, promote tactical and difficult combat. I want my players to fear death, to know that the things they fight could kill them, and that in order to win they must be on top of their game.
Well I would not go as far as saying that Gygax is turning over in his grave. I can say this though. I have talked with him on various messages boards and I can say for a 100% fact that he DID NOT like the 3/3.5 edition of D&D. One of the main reasons is because it made D&D too complex.
Hence the reason for him designing his own game(Lejendary Adventures) which is rules lite. While he maybe might not have liked some of the changes of 4e D&D. I am sure that he would have liked the fact that Wizards of the Coast at least made the game more accessable and easier to play.
I myself will always be partial to 1E AD&D(I did like 2E but not as much) but still I am optimistic about the 4E and will be getting it. It sounds pretty interesting and if it truly is easier to play then that is great. My wife has really taken an interest in D&D and maybe the 4E will be the way to go for her.
I also really like how they are doing the online aspect of D&D. The idea of a virtual gaming table is just brilliant. It gives all us pen and paper rpg fans a way to play with friends easier.
lol it seems WoW is killing all around even the foundation of rpg games!! XD
As 1st Edition Player, I can tell you that many skills were made up on the spot by DM-Player interaction.
PLAYER: "I'm going to tie my rope to my axe, try to throw it through the castle window, hope it catches on something, then swing over to the castle wall and climb through the window."
The DM at this point, might role some dice and actually use the results...
STRENGTH roll - top see if the character can throw that far, DEXTERITY ROLL- to see if they can aim that well, LUCK roll etc.
... or if she thought it was a good plan and it advanced the story, she might just agree to let it happen.
That is something that 3/3.5/and now 4th edition rules have supplanted. There was no rope skill or jump skill or throwing skill. The DM and the player worked it out because the most important thing was the story, not the rule book.
I'm not saying that the new way is bad, but it is a definite shift. And in most editions I think that there is a section about how the DMs should run their campaigns the way they want, regardless of the rules.
Will we ever see this type of playing in an MMO? I can only hope, but probably not soon.
I usually like MMORPG.com articles... really.
but not this time. Being a DnD player since that time whem mmo was just Ultima, this articles sounds at least wrong.
When you talk about character roles, please quote a game where I choose "Leader" as a role? It's not a new concept to form groups where each player has his role. It's not something that MMO is teaching, this concept exist since the first DnD version (waaaaay before mmo games), but they decide to call it classes instead of roles.
MMOs have been using terms like these to describe the roles of the classes for quite some time. Rounding out a solid MMO group is almost always reliant on having characters that can fill each of these roles. While the same has been true of Dungeons and Dragons in the past in a passive way, 4th Edition marks the first time that the game’s design has incorporated it and spelled it out in terms that are so familiar to online RPG players.
Well, since the beginning of DnD it was a wise choice to make a group with different classes... or imagine 5 people around a table playing a Cleric...
about the combat powers, news for you... they also existed all this time... in the 3rd edition it was called "feats / special abilities" but the 3rd version is treated like Abe Simpson. It was not about just saying "I swing my sword" and roll the dice, I'm sorry if you had this kind of RPG experience...
Previous editions of DnD have relied on standard attacks for melee characters with spell casters having a wide variety of choice in the spells that they cast.
an Human Fighter in DnD can have 21 Feats at 20th lvl... and you say that he didn't had ANY type of combat power and that they "copied" from the MMO Formula? wake up
still on the fighter (since you used as example), show me an MMO where i can Cleave my enemy...
I think you forgot to say that DnD 4th edition learned from MMO's the Experience and Level System too!!!!!
common...
Non-spell casters can now take advantage of specific attack powers that are gained through level progression in much the same way that characters in a standard level-based MMO gain new attack powers.
Not only the feats are gained through leveling up in DnD 3rd (and AD&D for instance), but we choose wich type of special-out-of-standard-attack to "buy" next level.
It's nothing personal, but you're threating this subject with less care than required.. DnD have a huge public and I believe that everyone who played some of the previous versions knows that special attacks and character classes are the oldest features of this RPG, not something learned now!
Now, instead of simply telling the DM that my fighter wants to attack, rolling a die to see if I hit and repeating as often as is necessary, I am able to say that I want to use “Spinning Sweep” (a knockdown attack) or Brute Strike (a heavy damage power). I still have to roll the dice to see whether or not I hit, but I am able to use more strategy and thought than I ever could before.
Playing DnD 3rd edition was not like that AT ALL... way too different... if you look even at AD&D (the second edition of the game, wich was developed 20 years ago you find special abilities and class powers (to not talk about classes templates) for every character role... how can you say "Now i'm able to use Brute Strike for more damage"... okay, before that we could do a Power Attack (a feat). At first level I can have Power Attack and Cleave, for example, and do a lot of tactics with it... imagine on the 20th... the variety of feats and special abilities, if you put together all the books made to 3rd edition, is more than ANY MMO.
MMO's have many lessons to learn from RPG games... because in mmo the character looks all the same, just change the armor color. But two people playing as Fighters could be completely different, because you can choose wich type of fighter you want to be... and that depends on many decisions.... I'll have more dexterity or strength? I'll have combat feats or passive feats? I'll have social skills (diplomacy, for example) or action skills (move silently, spot, acrobatics, etc)?
It should be noted that 3rd Edition and 3.5 both allowed for some diversity in abilities for non-casters through the use of feats, but 4th Edition is where the combat powers really start to reflect those of an MMO.
"SOME" diversity? every character (don't matter the class) can take a look to a full page of feats to choose a few different abilities.... while the casters had only one or two (if human), the fighter could start with 3 feats... enough to make a lot of combinations. More than any other... The rogue starts with up to 40+ skilll points, being able to buy more skills than any other... and in DnD I can actually use skills in combat and in other momments of the game... while in MMO's, the skills are the name of the system that looks like the feats system (without the freedom of do whatever i want to my char).
The content and the system of DnD 3rd Edition is a lot deeper and more original than any MMO on the market today.
My advice to you is that you research more before make an article like that, because people who plays DnD knows that you're wrong in this subject (sorry, no offenses here, trying to be constructive).
I really like the articles of mmorpg.com , but this time looks more like a marketing review due the release of this new version... trying to attract MMO players to DnD.
I say to MMO players: play real RPG too... it's a lot better, it's full customizable and you have total freedom to do whatever you want. But instead of using your computer, you use your brain. Instead of seeing numbers jumping up the monster's head, you play a ROLE .... by the way, how is "character roles" new to you if the game is named ROLE PLAYING GAME? While the Massive Multiplayer thing looks more like a "play alone in your room with a bunch of people you don't know " (wich is fun sometimes) RPG could be defined as "gather with friends to play a character you create in a story you create with the rules that you like and having fun"
Or: this are two completely different things.
It's like saying that the World Cup is based on Winning Eleven
saying that WoTC created an offline mmo ?!? okay... i though that mmorpg was an online version of pen and paper rpg... not the opposite
(really... "RPG is an Off-line Massively Multiplayer Online RPG" ....) paradox mode on
The thing is D%D isnt the first ones to come up with Virtual Tabletops that you can play pnp games on. They have been around for years., some for free, some that have a one time fee. The only thing that DnD is doing is adding a monthly subscription to it.
If your interested in other virtual tabletops check out : www.fouruglymonsters.com. This is an online community that use and talk about different VTTs.
I've been playing RPGs (pen&paper) for almost 15 years now. Played many kinds of games and systems, and my faithful group has had its share of homemade systems.
RPG is about freedom - to be what you want, do you what you want. If we find a rule we don't agree with, we change it. If something in the story book isn't reasonable, we change it.
And if the new rules for D&D (for this discussion) don't please us, will bend them, change them, scrap them if needed. Heck, gimme the first edition of D&D and we'll have a blast. Gimme one die and we'll still have a blast.
Discussing systems is pointless - what matters is your imagination. Have fun!
D&D will always be AD&D 2nd edition for me (crica 1980 or so). This is was before feats, and everything else that seemed to complicate the game playing. The path it seemed to take after the 2nd edition was a game of mathematics by adding pluses and minues from all these different skills that were introduced, and forgetting about keeping it simple and fun.
Just my 2 cents...
Shouldn't you be on a porch somewhere yelling at some kids?
Being a gamer who owns a large amount of the second edition as well as the old first edition with all the little pamplet style booklets, I can see where you are coming from in this post. I have to add, back with the older games, yes you COULD make special attacks such as sweeping attacks, and power strikes. That was part of being inventive, coming up with new ways and using your own brain to come up with inventive ways to over come your opponents. It was called personal initiative. I think that is one of the reasons some of the older gamers take exception wih the newer revisions. All of the imagination and personal immersion levels (Maybe immersion is the wrong word here) that come from "becoming" more a part of your character whn you ROLE PLAY are being replaced by preset attacks. A Good DM from "back in the day" would improvise according to what players would come up with. Player: "I want to swing my axe in a large circle and try to knock some of the swarming ratmen back" DM: "Okay, make your hitroll with a -5 modifier" or some crap. Maybe throw in a strength roll for knock back, or if hitroll fails, a dex roll to make sre you are not knocked down instead. It saddens me, personally, to see things get so dumbed down (In my opinion!) and leaving less to the imagination of the players. Overcoming scenarios should be about imagination, not some preset skills that keep people in a rush to get teh phat loots.
The Online Table is great idea but it should have been done 5-10 years ago. The technology was there but Wizards never bothered with it. It took WoW and MMORPGs to get them off their rears, but at least it's here now.
I agree with you SunderGhost. That's why I expect players to describe exactly what they are doing in combat. The feats itselfs just tell the player that his character is able to do something that others don't (and others can do things that he don't).... this is part of our lifes... there are thing we simply can't do for one reason or another (but we can learn, through experience).
most of the players know that... but looks like Jon Wood doesn't.
Maybe because people who play MMO forgot about the other half of the acronym... the RPG. The online games should learn something from Real RPG: RolePlay.
Many people will say "oh, but it's possible to role play in mmo's". I've tryed a few times with a lot of different games... but in the end, no one does it, so what is the point of playing? Just to kill monsters and other players to show you're the best? Some games have features allowing players to make changes in the world they live in... but in the end is just a "mutual solo experience", since every fighter in the server has to do the same quests and kill the same monsters. When will we see a game where the role play count?
Elder Scroll: Oblivion is something close to that, since I can choose my paths, my quests, my objectives and my combat style... If I do something wrong like killing people, the guards will come after me... I can be arrested, or escape, or just give guards some monney. And this kind of stuff will make a difference in the end.
But MMO's in general don't have not even this kind of feature. You just choose a class and now you're full of limits like wich weapon to use and what kind of attack you can do.
Exceptions in my opinion would be games like EVE, where I found a lot of people roleplaying, because the game itselfs encourage that.
In the end is pointless to discuss this.... the reason I'm mad about this is quite simple: people who doesn't understand RPG talking about RPG, saying that MMO changed the rpg industry while the things you claim as new and inovative already existed for about 20 years.
You should say exactly the opposite... you should ask "when mmorpg will become real rpg?" or "when mmo players will become rpg players?"
I think that this will take a looooong time to happen, because technology has limits.... our brain don't
4th edition, having tried it, feels like a mmorpg. It seems to me that they watered d20 down for the sake of making it easier to program into games. I enjoyed 3rd and 3.5, I found it better than 2nd edition; even though I thought 3.5 could get overly complicated at times 4th is overly simplified. My friends and I are sticking to 3.5. Maybe 5th will be better. PnP games though the inspiration for mmorpg, despite this odd co-mingling, they really are two separate entities.
All the web utilities really could have been done for 3rd its really about time. I really don't know if 4th will bring anything to the table. Most independent developers want to continue working with 3.5, mostly because its establish but also because 4th ed isn't free for them to make modules for. Bye bye open gaming license. All that said you have to question what will come out of 4th that benefits the players.
The thing is D%D isnt the first ones to come up with Virtual Tabletops that you can play pnp games on. They have been around for years., some for free, some that have a one time fee. The only thing that DnD is doing is adding a monthly subscription to it.
If your interested in other virtual tabletops check out : www.fouruglymonsters.com. This is an online community that use and talk about different VTTs.
Actually I do realise that Wizards was not the first to do a virtual tabletop. But I think that it is pretty neat that they have their own officially supported version for the game. Yes it is true that there is a small subscription price but you also get other support material for the game. Thanks for the link though. I will have to go check it out.
after trying out the new 4th edition game, all i can say is i got soooooooo bored. New rules make it a pure hack and slash game, the entire rules focus pretty much on combat, spells are completly combat based now with a mere handful of exceptions. The characters now don't even invite any kind of noncombative roleplaying. They have no life, i just call them the class cause the next one i make seems strangely just like the last one. I will definatly stick with 3.5, very streamlined system that allows you to make an actual person, with history, strengths and weaknesses unique to that character. And i love how things have these additional effects that last until you save and after level 5 or so its extremly hard to fail a saving throw which makes all that stuff basically mute and near pointless and alot of bookkeeping.
This leads me to the rather depressing notion that roleplaying is almost dead, catering to the unimaginative fast reward seekers. I love hearing all the cries of how rules are secondary to the story and imagination and with Every one i have played who said that had house rules created to cover things ALREADY in the book, they just haven't even bothered to read the thing or understand it. A strong solid ruleset is the foundation upon which the imagination can be built, am i saying that we need to be rule nazis. No. But once you have a strong understanding of the rules they provide the structure for a good strong coherent and believable story, and you shouldn't be running games unless you have that, and if you dont then go for 4th edition cause as long as you can run combat thats all you need!
This is real interesting...
It's a good idea, but I truly hope they really develop the table top tools really extensively because that is one thing about PnP over MMOs is the ability to do whatever your imagination desires. But with any computer based form of table top you will always have restrictions. "IF" they can surpass most of the restrictions then this would be worthwhile.
But I find it so funny that 4th edition has made such a turn. And honestly i don't think it would have if things wouldn't have exploded as they have in the MMO genre. And of course it is fitting they would want a piece of the pie. I'm sure DDO that turbine made probably isn't producing the numbers they may have liked or wanted, so now they redevelop things so that it fits easier.
This could be their downfall now, they are no longer "unique" and they have joined the Joneses so to speak.
So it all depends on who can display and represent the information the best for what people are looking for.
But this could be really big for the majority of the hardcore RP community... but not so great for much else. So it would be wise if the toolset for the premium service of theirs includes much of what roleplayers would love and need.
of course this is going to make for some interesting new MMO games from Wizards of the Coast and whatever designer they go with, i'm hoping we see a new Bioware MMO based on this ruleset in the not so distant future.
I agree with so many of the points, on both sides of the issue. However, I fall into the catergory of those who hate to see D&D fall into this pattern. I don't agree with locked in character types. I have not played table top D&D in several years due to various reasons but I began playing when I was 8 yrs old. ( I am now 34 and still a gamer at heart) I do hate what MMORPG's are developing into .. but I can agree with the poster who said that the demands of today's up and coming gamers are different than ours, and I don't necessarily think that is completely a good thing. I just don't think that people should lose the imagination that goes into gaming, and the effort that it takes to make it fun. Instant gratification and class lock ins to tell you what to do is not the same gaming whether it is table top or computer.
Hopefully, those who say the rules are just guide lines and core can change things to fit the players, will continue to play that way and keep it fun.
I played 1st Edition D&D and have played all editons since, with the bulk of my play in AD&D 2nd edition. I've looked at the ruleset for 4th edition and am frankly appalled. The game only resembles D&D by name only. This is not the game I love and enjoy anymore. Wizards of the Coast has purchased a name and then put a different product in the box simply because they thought it would make them more money. This really feels like a George Lucas ruining the original Star Wars trilogy kind of thing....Han shot first...magic missiles ALWAYS hits.
Maybe if people quit buying WOTC's shitty products they will quit making them. I'm still trying to figure out the necessity of the 3rd edition, let alone the 4th.
I am very much looking forward to both DM'ing and playing 4E. I've been around since AD&D and I like the fact that alot of the rules were either numbed down, or clarified. Got all the created material on release day and I've been messing about creating an adventure for this comming weekend for my group.
The only thing I'm worried about is the time it will take for them to release the different "world" books. And the players Handbook 2 :)
Otherwise it looks quite alright, you can focus more on the story than you could in 3.X due to the ruleset.
Hm, I've played lots of D&D in my time. Didn't quite start off with 1st. ed, I'm not quite that old, but I did make a few 2nd ed characters and played a few times. 3rd ed. hit it off big, mainly because it was simple, fast to run and relatively 'brainless' for the DM... At least, compared to Rolemaster (rulesmonster!), Hârnmaster, GURPS, Legend of Five Rings, Palladium FRPG (1st ed) etc. that we were regularly running campaigns and one-shots in our group.
3.5 didn't really complicate 3rd ed that much, it mainly clarified some things and rebalanced others, even if it did clip my wizard character down a notch. Both have a serious drawback though: Most rules center around combat, just like in any other RPG, but there's no way to advance your character without directly fighting bigger and badder monsters.
There were limited choices, which made things interesting when building your character, but in the end, it was too much about combat to keep our group interested after the 'shine' had worn off and our characters started hitting lvl18-19.
Still, making new character concepts for 3E and 3.5 is still something I like playing around with, and I still play at an old Neverwinter Nights Persistant World server (City of Arabel, check it out!) when the mood takes me.
From what I've heard and what I just read, 4th ed. will center even more around combat, removing 'useless' skills from the ruleset, 'rebalancing' the classes to more streamlined combat model with very strict roles for each class/subclass. Each character will have a function, and will have to perform that one, and that one only, function in combat, for the group to succeed. Secondary attributes outside combat (social skills, interaction skills, non-combat problem resolution skills) are thrown away or at least marginalized.
A system like that is all well and good for a MMOG, where the quest line is a linear progression, and, say, talking your way past a guard is only possible if the plot spesifically allows for it. It's IMO far less useful for pen&paper games if the DM runs anything beyond a simple dungeon crawl, y'know, the one that starts "You enter the dark and dank dungeon. You see a gnoll ahead of you, it's got a spear in its grubby paws."
Personally, I find games like that occasionally fun, but relatively non-roleplayish.
BTW: My first association for the 'Trinity' was for White Wolfs sci-fi game title "AEON Trinity", which I've both played and run some rounds in. The real meaning is apt, however. Not everyone can be classed to 'DPS, CC, Healer', as any decently built cleric of Tempus, Helm or Torm can easily demonstrate. "What do you mean, healing? I hit stuff with a big axe! My god demands it!"
I wonder if the VTT from WotC will allow you to create house rules . . . or revert back to 3E or 3.5E.
I think a good thing would be to let the DM do anything he pleases. If I want to throw my axe with a rope tied to it through a window and swing across, but the VTT rules do not allow for that, the sytem should let the player make his dice roles (whatever the DM says he needs) and let the DM move the character to where he is supposed to be. Did that make sense?
Just how much room we'll have to customize the Virtual tabletop will be what gets players off the fence, so to speak. The game is what you make it, truly.
omg this is the end..................
5th edition will have an option to walk away from the table and let a bot handle the grind....
5th adition will let you pay 5$ to wotc for powerleveling your character from 1 to 26
5th edition will have a petition queque for your gm
in all honesty the "features" described by the author came from limitations that computer games have in contrast to pen and paper.
the reason why each mmo and their siblings use standard grp layout of tank,healer, dps (and buffer) is because the quests/ encounters relay on linear, scripted computer ai. in pen&paper its totally ok and challenging for 2 mages and a clerik or a group of thieves to do an adventure.
the origin of pen&paper rpg for me is not some ruleset but to tell an interactive story by the gm with an audience of players. the rules are only there to ensure that the actions are some kind of limited and fun to play out. in that aspect computer mmorpgs have still years to catch up to classic p&p
Also remember that we have Three core books at this time of writing. 4E will keep expanding and the rules makes IMO more sense than those of 3.X.
I like the fact that there's defined roles to fill. One of my pet pieves is when a guy in my group makes some useless charcter that will be extremely overpowered at level 20, but not till then and the rest of the group has to piggy back him most of the way there. Plus, even fighters are useful now :)
Simple is good.
Complexity for the sake of complexity was never Gary's goal. New rules where added to make the game better, this simplification is well done IMO.
For those of you who are not familiar with the P&PRPG genre let me inform you here; it has been dying and losing players by the thousands to online games. Wizards of the Coast did what they had to do; try to capture their player base that was been lost to MMOs. The only reason I play MMOs is due to the fact that I can longer get a group of 5 adults together to play a P&P game anymore. Most of my friends have families and careers that prevent them from dedicating the amount of time that is needed to participate in a game, and I'm not even talking about the Dungeon Master, just the players.
As a DM who never uses published adventures, as I prefer to write my own, it's almost like having a second job. I put in several hours a night crafting a story, creating characters, and producing storylines that my players may or may not use. On average I would say about 40 hours go into starting a new campaign. Most people who have grown up playing P&P dion't have that kind of time anymore, and this is where MMOs come into play.
If you have never played in a P&P game then you are surely missing one of the best interactive expierences in gaming, period. The hard part is finding a good group of players who play the game, but don't take it to serious. I welcome D&D back into the fold, and hope that it continues to push the envelope of gaming.
Earth
Games must evolve to keep their player base interested, AND bring new players to the table (so to speak). Example: Rifts (by Palladium Books): best setting in P&P, but the rules havnet changed in 20 years. So, players stop playing and stores stop stocking the games. D&D while I don't agree with 3 rule changes in less than 10 years, I can understand why. Evolve or become non existent, basic rule of the universe.
Are you sure you were playing D&D? Because if you were playing without a rogue or a cleric then your DM was hacking the game to pieces and unlocking doors like crazy. No party from base D&D up to 3.5 made it far without a healer unless the DM was fudging every roll. Case in point, according to the rules an Ogre will drop any level 3 class but a fighter or barb in a couple of swings, or close to it. Play DDO a bit and you'll see how fast most monsters take people down without a DM there pretending your rogue didn't just take a tree to the chest for 1.5x his max HPs for that level. Throw in crits and it's a party wipe in short order.
And wouldn't it seem odd that this evil overlord hasn't locked a single door in his palace or bothered to booby trap his treasure room?
The fact that this is a complaint is proof that you haven't read any of the rules for 4E, because if you had you would know that this actually does away with most of the class restrictions in this regard. There are 2 healing classes now, and anyone can heal themselves for a considerable amount(healers are only really needed if you're taking a good beating while actually in a fight, no more of this 2 HPs a day crap), and all theivery based actions are rolled into one skill that anyone can learn, with the DM's option(isn't everything?) that some stuff is specialized to the rogue only.
I'd encourage you all to at least familiarize yourself with some of changes before you make blanket assumptions.
Well, are you sure you've played a pen & paper RPG at all? Because if you imply that picking a lock is the only way to open a door or to get to what is around it, I'm blaming you and the other players for lack of imagination. Fighters and barbarians just bash the door, druid shapes the wooden chest (or metal, or stone), monk can ignore object hardness (useful for cutting steel bars in prison), wizards and sorcs have 'knock' spell that unlocks stuff and disintegrate that, well, does... And that's just the ways the rules directly support opening stuff up. That still leaves out dozens of ways imaginative players can get doors opened (find the guard with the keys, knock on the door and wait until they open etc.)
And traps... Don't talk to me about traps. *half-orc fighter walks into trap.Trap goes off, half-orc takes damage.* "Grunt. Trap." *half-orc goes to kill the guy who set the trap.* Monks and paladins simply save vs. the trap, clerics buff themselves, barbarians have improved evasion, and both ranger and bard class can see it before stepping on it. And of course there's the old staple 'let the minion go first'. :D
In pen&paper, all these systems work. You don't need to have someone who gives '30hp/sec' during a fight to the fighter, since if he's getting knocked about he can do something different to avoid taking that damage (expertise, disarm, knockdown enemies etc. etc.) And there's always running away or letting someone else take the beating (like the wizard, who's bound to be real appreciative).
In most MMO's simplified fighting rules, everything is based on modding the damage per second, hit point buffer, aggro range & level, and incoming healing per second for a character. You could simply calculate the relative values between the party and the encounter, and declare a winner right away.
I'm not saying that simplified rules are a bad thing. I've played with even lighter, storytelling type rules, and they work fine. What I'm saying is that I don't like what I see in the new rules system, and think it's a huge change from the basic feel of the old system, even larger then the leap from 2nd ed to 3rd.
4th Edition may be D&D, but it sure as hell isn't AD&D! Wizards may have well just re-released the old Elf is a class/dwarf is a class original D&D. Simple is fine for starting a game or playing with novices or children, but the complexity of AD&D is what made it fun - and it still required MORE rules because intelligent players came up with things not even close to covered by the rules. DMing was a fulltime job! Miniatures and hex terrain made things better [as the online program may in some respects - IFF it allows the DM to use whatever rules he wishes], as did programs like DMGenie, but characters had depth.
3rd Edition was dumbed down, 4th Edition is fully lobotomised! No more D&D for me, thanks.
The most fascinating thing about P&P is the fact that you can "mod" the rules to fit YOUR game. MMOs don't allow you to do that at all. In fact, MMOs have dumbed down gaming in my opinion; once you find a strategy against a boss it ALWAYS works. On the other hand, you can't count on a recurring villian to use the same strategies in P&P, the DM won't allow it lol.
LOL at the people who are saying 4E brings the dreaded "trinity" to tabletop RPGs.
It is NOT a rule that every party MUST contain a character for each role. It is a suggestion, intended mainly for people who are new to RPGs.
If you want to have a game where the players are all Rangers, I'm sure you can manage just fine. If the campaign requires some finessing or modification to make this viable, so be it.
That is what the DM is for.
It is the DM's job to make the game fun for the players, no matter how they choose to play.
That is the difference between a DM and a computer, and why tabletop games have the potential to be so much more entertaining.
If your DM runs his campaign like a computer, maybe you should find a new DM.
Well said Finwolven.
DnD and indeed all PnP games have always had that element of endless possibilities. That was the whole point. I myself hated when we focused on the mechanics more than the strategy and story telling. All the calculations could take forever, and half the time I looked for ways to avoid the monsters in interesting ways rather than have to sit through all the rolls for constant combat.
And of course the situations you found yourself in were endless. Sure some overlord might have locked doors, but as you mentioned there are countless ways to overcome these. Other times you were just in natural caves and there might be no need for a thief. Other times there might be need for absolute stealth and you would send in ONLY the thief. It all depended.
The game was for a small group of players, they were the focus of the world, the action was all tailored around them. The complexities and possibility of situation was all up to them and the DM and they could take advantage of the rules and handbook content to whatever extent desired.
I believe the whole problem with MMORPGs today is that they were based on such a wide-scope roleplaying environment that they could never hope to match. Sure the computer could do all the calculations much better, so we got single player RPGs where at least the player was still the focus of the world and the story could be well crafted and written, with multiple possibilities in the best titles, but even there much more limited than PnP. Then we had a few games like Neverwinter Nights where I think they had the right idea for online application of DnD type mechanics, where you could play over the internet with your friends, but still craft things to their preferences.
The jump to MMORPG was however, the mistake. Now there were thousands of players in one world. Dev created content could never be tailored to them at a large enough scale to be interesting. All the endless possibilities were gone and we were left with the leveling and the dungeon crawling, only small parts of the PnP RPGs and hardly able to bear the keywords ROLE PLAYING.
Instead what we should have gotten out of MMOs (and indeed some of the early ones showed steps in the right direction, but it has been a backward slide since then) was the vast potential of computer system to handle all of the mechanics to create a rich dynamic persistent world where the thousands of players interacting with each other and the environment in competitive and cooperative ways could create content spontaneously with every action.
Instead we found that the PnP design doesn't work in that open persistent setting and we get more of the arbitrary mechanics that lead to instances, soul-bound equipment, etc. because with all these people running around in a world that was supposed to focus on the adventuring party having fun encounters in a dungeon and getting all the phat loot, we had people running into each other and ruining things for each other because the design was never intended to take advantage of player encounters. Just imagine if you and your PnP pals entered the dungeon only to be told by the DM that all the loot was gone, the monsters were all dead, cuz someone beat you to it.
But the point of this thread is not to fix what has long been broken in MMORPG design, and although I realize that PnP games are largely what you make of them, it just seems somewhat ridiculous that the next gen of DnD is being informed by MMORPG design which was flawed for being based on small-party PnP systems to begin with. Thank goodness you can just keep your old manuals instead of waking up one day to find that a patch has irrevocably changed the game you came to know and love.
A-friggin-men, brother. I haven't been able to find a group to play my campaigns since I moved from NJ 11 years ago. I have stories saved up for years-worth of AD&D campaigns, and no players to challenge with them.
A good DM is hard to find. A great DM who doesn't throw everything together on-the-fly is worth keeping at all costs. Sadly, no one seems to realize this anymore. Some days it makes me want to weep.
I long for the days of old-school tabletop AD&D, Rifts, etc...
/agreed
but the problem is that new players will get the impression they are limited and i dont want people believing that bilbo beutlin stood in the rain for hours shouting "lf tank and healer to make a ring run"
I'm just sorry for the poor bard. He seems to be gone, while Druids, Rangers, Monks and Barbarians need to wait for their own supplements. Hope you didn't play a bard in a campaign that's getting 'upgraded' to 4.0 by the DM. Or a Gnome Illusionist. Or a Half-Orc anything.
Don't be alarmed by the alarmist, he obviously hasn't read the 4th ed rules yet. You can easily convert your 3.5ed character to 4th edition. What this new addition does is take away all of the rules that were not needed. Now your group has room to "roleplay" without being hampered by too many rules. It reminds me of the Story Teller system for White Wolf games. Also, if your character is not represented in the new rule set just yet, then check out the D&D forums. I found a kick ass druid template that I can't wait to use.
I can totaly understand the reason why most groups don't want to conver to 4th editon. My suggestion is to play what you feel most comfoprtable playing. I got rid of my 3.5 books, and only kept Eberron which I plan to use for my game world. Again, no one is being forced to play or buy the 4th edition game. And let's be honest here; you could play for years and never use half of the 3.5 edition books that were printed.
Earth
Going to have to disagree slightly given that my group played for many years with the first edition PHB Dm guide and Monmster manual.
This post made me chuckle. WotC did not "Do what they had to do" in the least. I must say, you must make an excellent DM, for you have one hell of an imagination! All Wizards of the Coast did was try to cash in on a current market of online gamers by using a well known intellectual property name that they have rights to. If they wanted to make a game patterned after MMO's they could have easily put together some hybrid rules, as they have done in the past, and stamp an original/new name on it. Instead they took something that is known well, and cherished by many, and bastardized it.
I have dozens of friends who still make time to do TT gaming, OLD PnP style. Not this new crap. The reason WotC, and other similar gaming companies are losing players is not due to people gaming online. It is due to their manufacture of inferior, and degenerating quality in their products. I am an online MMO player of a LONG time, but I am still a role player. I do not buy many new PnP products however because most are crap. I will buy some, or read them over in the shop to see if I may enjoy, and am becoming increasingly discouraged. The patterns of current gaming trends in the PnP world is on a decline. Technology, and MMO's are not to at fault. They have no one to blame but themselves.
Ok this may indeed be a silly question. If it is I apologize in advance, but does anyone know where the OP got the image that he used to display this article on the frontpage of the site? I would love to find it and make a wallpaper out of it if anyone has any ideas. Thanks!
Bryan
I happen to be of the unusual generation that discovered gaming at the dawn of graphical RPGs (Bard's Tale anyone?) and the height of DnD. My first games were out of the Red Box but we soon moved on to 1ED and AD&D (then 3rd, 3.5 and now 4e). I've MUDed far more than I've MMO'd and that is a huge volume of hours.
The only reason I point this out is because I've actually played them all and I've noticed that with each new generation it becomes less and less about character and more about bling. And that's for everything RPG. The last book I could hold in my hand with the distinction of qualifying for the RP in RPG was AD&D.
Magic Items in the Player's Handbook!! Seriously? What could be more telling than that?
Gone are the days when the character sheet was a reference, now it IS the character. I've even played games without character sheets but there is some sort of greedy pride in showing your phat loot.
And maybe the news rules are meant to streamline the game ... but I don't think so. I can't imagine being a new DM and trying to discover myself now.
Before, if you could think of something to do in game, you could give it a try. A good DM (which is unusual, granted) would see the imagination in it and reward you.
"Bob the Brazen wants to leap from the stairs, grab the chandelier, swing across the room and ..."
1st ED answer: "If you make a DEX and an Attack, I'll award you double XP, you swashbuckling rogue you!"
"Sweet..."
4E answer: "Roll a Jump Check, Strength Check and an Acrobatics check to get there but you can't attack this round because your model is more than six squares away."
"Well, then I'll walk down the stairs and continue to be Bob the Boring."
I guess my point is that the rules used to be a guide. Now, there is so much more of the Handbooks that are rules. My attacks and spells aren't limited by my imagination but by the fact that it says "Once per day".
What about creative uses for those odd spells that are now so much trash? I had one clever player describe in detail the use of skulls by some cultures as drinking vessels and then cast "Create Water" inside a flaming skeletons skull because it was a drinking vessel. How about a player that cast Iron Wall "On any plane so long as it is supported on one edge" at a 45 degree angle, in the middle of a pasture in front of some charging ogres. Poof ... Save vs Spells or die! Good DM saw a struggling party and they all perished in a suitably squishy manner.
Oh but house rules ... house rules ... if you have to make so many house rules that you effectively remove the original rules, then the purpose of the original rules is..... what?
This post made me chuckle. WotC did not "Do what they had to do" in the least. I must say, you must make an excellent DM, for you have one hell of an imagination! All Wizards of the Coast did was try to cash in on a current market of online gamers by using a well known intellectual property name that they have rights to. If they wanted to make a game patterned after MMO's they could have easily put together some hybrid rules, as they have done in the past, and stamp an original/new name on it. Instead they took something that is known well, and cherished by many, and bastardized it.
I have dozens of friends who still make time to do TT gaming, OLD PnP style. Not this new crap. The reason WotC, and other similar gaming companies are losing players is not due to people gaming online. It is due to their manufacture of inferior, and degenerating quality in their products. I am an online MMO player of a LONG time, but I am still a role player. I do not buy many new PnP products however because most are crap. I will buy some, or read them over in the shop to see if I may enjoy, and am becoming increasingly discouraged. The patterns of current gaming trends in the PnP world is on a decline. Technology, and MMO's are not to at fault. They have no one to blame but themselves.
Thanks for responding, and yes I'll bite...
I've been running PnP games since I was 14 years old, I'm 34 now. That's 20 years of actual gaming; making my own adventures, characters and worlds. Let me guess; you've been playing MMOs for a long time, hence your post about PnP games. The reason why the genre (PnP)is losing players is due to the fact that the genre hasn't grown up with it's player base. There is no way in the 9 hells that you, who calls himself a PnP player, would chose an online MMO over a TT RPG? Get real bro; MMO in no way, shape or form, compare to the complexity, and imagination of PnP role playing.
How can someone who doesn't buy PnP games make a comparison that said games are crap? That's like saying all MMOs are crap, yet I don't buy MMOs... Again, a company MUST evolve with it's consumer, if it doesn't then it loses that consumer. D&D had to evolve with current gaming trends to keep up, hence, the combining of TTRPG and MMOs. Would you continue to buy the same car if it was produced with the same technology, 1908, that was used to make the Model T Ford when it first came out? I highly doubt it...
Sorry, but your argument holds no facts or validity. And yeah, my grammar sucks, so what.
Thanks for responding, and yes I'll bite...
I've been running PnP games since I was 14 years old, I'm 34 now. That's 20 years of actual gaming; making my own adventures, characters and worlds. Let me guess; you've been playing MMOs for a long time, hence your post about PnP games. The reason why the genre (PnP)is losing players is due to the fact that the genre hasn't grown up with it's player base. There is no way in the 9 hells that you, who calls himself a PnP player, would chose an online MMO over a TT RPG? Get real bro; MMO in no way, shape or form, compare to the complexity, and imagination of PnP role playing.
How can someone who doesn't buy PnP games make a comparison that said games are crap? That's like saying all MMOs are crap, yet I don't buy MMOs... Again, a company MUST evolve with it's consumer, if it doesn't then it loses that consumer. D&D had to evolve with current gaming trends to keep up, hence, the combining of TTRPG and MMOs. Would you continue to buy the same car if it was produced with the same technology, 1908, that was used to make the Model T Ford when it first came out? I highly doubt it...
Sorry, but your argument holds no facts or validity. And yeah, my grammar sucks, so what.
Hmm, not sure you read my earlier post (Or this one for that matter) as I stated then that I have been playing PnP for quite a time. No sense in me reposting my old post, so I won't. Uhm, not sure where in this post I said I choose online MMO over TT RPG's either. As I recall, I stated that I am both an MMO player AND a TT PnP player. *Reads his post yet another time* Yep, sure did! "I am an online MMO player of a LONG time, but I am still a role player" there ya have it. Further, I did not say I do not buy PnP games. I said I do not buy MANY of the NEW products as I find them to be crap. I even clarified in case some idiot came along who tried to claim I have no foundation for my OPINION, by stating that before I make the decision to NOT buy those new products, I DO go into shops and read them over. At that same time I even said I DO buy some. Hmm, and you end by saying that MY argument holds no fact or validity? You sir should not take my post so personally when you read the opening lines, and maybe read what I say before you try calling me out, or shooting me down. You failed miserably.
To be clear for you, I DO play PnP TT games. I DO write my own adventures. In my many years I have not been one to rely on the premade adventures or modules that release. I have several of them, for alternate loot tables they provided back during First ED and Second.
Anyway, rather than take such a holier than thou position, step off your pedestal and don't be so quick to lash out. It really is not needed. You stated your opinion. Great. I stated mine. And I stand by my very valid opinion that WotC was not "Doing what they had to" but rather were just out to make a quick buck. Maybe instead of trying to flame me based on things you do not know, stick to the topic rather than trying to start a flame war? Thanks. Have a nice day. :)
Thanks for responding, and yes I'll bite...
I've been running PnP games since I was 14 years old, I'm 34 now. That's 20 years of actual gaming; making my own adventures, characters and worlds. Let me guess; you've been playing MMOs for a long time, hence your post about PnP games. The reason why the genre (PnP)is losing players is due to the fact that the genre hasn't grown up with it's player base. There is no way in the 9 hells that you, who calls himself a PnP player, would chose an online MMO over a TT RPG? Get real bro; MMO in no way, shape or form, compare to the complexity, and imagination of PnP role playing.
How can someone who doesn't buy PnP games make a comparison that said games are crap? That's like saying all MMOs are crap, yet I don't buy MMOs... Again, a company MUST evolve with it's consumer, if it doesn't then it loses that consumer. D&D had to evolve with current gaming trends to keep up, hence, the combining of TTRPG and MMOs. Would you continue to buy the same car if it was produced with the same technology, 1908, that was used to make the Model T Ford when it first came out? I highly doubt it...
Sorry, but your argument holds no facts or validity. And yeah, my grammar sucks, so what.
Hmm, not sure you read my earlier post (Or this one for that matter) as I stated then that I have been playing PnP for quite a time. No sense in me reposting my old post, so I won't. Uhm, not sure where in this post I said I choose online MMO over TT RPG's either. As I recall, I stated that I am both an MMO player AND a TT PnP player. *Reads his post yet another time* Yep, sure did! "I am an online MMO player of a LONG time, but I am still a role player" there ya have it. Further, I did not say I do not buy PnP games. I said I do not buy MANY of the NEW products as I find them to be crap. I even clarified in case some idiot came along who tried to claim I have no foundation for my OPINION, by stating that before I make the decision to NOT buy those new products, I DO go into shops and read them over. At that same time I even said I DO buy some. Hmm, and you end by saying that MY argument holds no fact or validity? You sir should not take my post so personally when you read the opening lines, and maybe read what I say before you try calling me out, or shooting me down. You failed miserably.
To be clear for you, I DO play PnP TT games. I DO write my own adventures. In my many years I have not been one to rely on the premade adventures or modules that release. I have several of them, for alternate loot tables they provided back during First ED and Second.
Anyway, rather than take such a holier than thou position, step off your pedestal and don't be so quick to lash out. It really is not needed. You stated your opinion. Great. I stated mine. And I stand by my very valid opinion that WotC was not "Doing what they had to" but rather were just out to make a quick buck. Maybe instead of trying to flame me based on things you do not know, stick to the topic rather than trying to start a flame war? Thanks. Have a nice day. :)
Not trying to flame, but you didn't answer my question. Fair enough though, to each his own and all that jazz. Play what you play.
Earth
I have been playing D&D since 1986. I have on my book shelves the complete 2nd edition core and accessory books and I also have all the Forgotten Realms books and box sets. I have read everyone of those books from cover to cover and I created a world for people to live in and enjoy. This means you need the following skills..
Reading...Yes that means you have to open a book and do more then use it for a doorstop
Comprehension...this means that you actually have to grasp what the words mean.
Math..there are lots of dice to add up and its not like craps you don't bet you pray.
Cooperation...this means that to accomplish a goal you must work "together"
Writing....this is done with a pen and paper. this is why they are called PnP games
Ok now that we have completely had to revamp the American educational systems to get this far , there is one more thing thats needed.
IMAGINATION....this comes from using your head for something other then holding a hat. Its frowned upon by most ppl today and is considered by some to be a sign of mental illness.
Yes I know that some of these things are needed for MMO's and I am not bashing them I play them just like everyone else. But they don't have the human equation in the same way as PnP games. With all that said I have one more statement and this is one that I will never change my mind about.....
WoTC killed Dungeons and Dragons. It took it apart, turned it upside down and turned an institution into a cash cow. There are still ppl out there that consider us 2nd editioners to be freaks of nature as we don't use all of the 1st edition rules. We use to call them "pureists" . I now understand how they felt. if you dumb down the game much more you might as well hand somebody a game of chutes and ladders(not bashing the game. i enjoyed it when i was child).
I am sorry this is such a long post but this is one major pet in my peeve corral. Long Live the Goddess Mystra may magic rule forever
Wow and I thought I was old
Wow and I thought I was old
I just got 100 years younger maybe now these old fingers will be able to type better :) Thanks for the heads up
this thread reads like these guys:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Fear-of-Girls-ADD
Its a sad day when a PnP game takes a que from an MMORPG and not the other way around. PnP games came first...were good enough that MMOs are the attempt to mimic them into an online digital enviroment. It should never be the other way around. MMO's should be taking there ques from PnP games like they always have.
PnP is all about creative content...not "rules". The rules don't even count for the most part if your real D&D players....cause hey...remember this: "Your DM...what you say goes...regardless...core rules included." Thats part of what makes D&D what it was.
4th Ed is the dumbed down version of DnD for the upcoming lazy generation...people who like everything handed to them...with little to no imagination...lead around on a chain....everything PnP D&D should stand against. Its made for the WOW crowd. Gary Gygax prolly turned over in his grave.
4th Edition seems to have pretty much cut out everything thats not a bare minimum for "hack n slash" gaming. I even find the terms used to generic the class types offensive. They even cut BARD completly out of the game for example.
I've played every edition of D&D to date...still have my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 books...I don't forsee myself getting into or using much if any of the 4th edition rules personally. Apologies for the rant...its too biased and not very objectional.
Anyways...the biggest point to 4th edition...is the money. Guess what...all those 3.5 books everyone bought...the hundreds probably published....now they get to re-release them all in 4th edition for everyone to buy all over again. They started to run short on new creative content...so it was time to change the rules to keep the money flowing by regurgitating all the same content over with the new system. Once that is tapped out...look forward to 5th edition...
Been playing D&D for 32 years.
That means I am old.
I can say for certain that this edition is unlike, in style and outlook, any edition before it.
Whether that is a good or bad thing remains to be seen; the reason being that unlike many previous editions, we have not received the bulk of the rules/content with the three core books. We will be asked to spend more money for what at one time were iconic classes, races and monsters (just for example).
This, if nothing else, validates the comparison to online RPG's.
Bit by bit, dollar by dollar, we we receive the rest of 4ed. Then, and really only then, will we be able to offer a truly informed opinion as to its worth compared to previous editions.