Originally posted by Quirhid
Where the hell did you pull that 500k subs for Eve from? Isn't it more like 350k?

 Last I heard was around 400k, but we all know at least half the population has multiple accounts. But hey, paid = paid. vOv

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

EvE consistantly ranks in the top 5 US and Top 10 in the world...on all the ratings engines that are out there. Not bad for a game that was built and operated on a fraction of the budget/resources then MOST of the AAA Themeparks out there....and it's outperforming MOST of those financialy as well.  I'm not actualy a fan of EvE....but it certainly disproves the notion that a sandbox cannot be more successfull/popular then a themepark. QED.

If you talk about financial success, sure .. CCP may be a better run company.

But popularity? Almost ANY themepark has more players. AOC, Rift, Aion .. all have more players right off the bat than Eve. In fact, it is pretty bad to only be able to get to 500k after so many years.

Heck, even Freerealm has more players than Eve.

AoC and Rift certainly don't. Both have had to close servers. Rift doesn't in the west.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

EvE consistantly ranks in the top 5 US and Top 10 in the world...on all the ratings engines that are out there. Not bad for a game that was built and operated on a fraction of the budget/resources then MOST of the AAA Themeparks out there....and it's outperforming MOST of those financialy as well.  I'm not actualy a fan of EvE....but it certainly disproves the notion that a sandbox cannot be more successfull/popular then a themepark. QED.

If you talk about financial success, sure .. CCP may be a better run company.

But popularity? Almost ANY themepark has more players. AOC, Rift, Aion .. all have more players right off the bat than Eve. In fact, it is pretty bad to only be able to get to 500k after so many years.

Heck, even Freerealm has more players than Eve.

 Not according to the Data provided here... http://mmodata.blogspot.com/

Take a look for yourself. Wow & Aion beat EvE...AOC, Rift and LOTRO are all beaten by it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by KaosProphet

 

I'm looking for the actual market we're talking about here.  Asian players who stick around count more than one-month-wonders do, you racist.

You have actual churn numbers of Eve? or WOW? Of any sandbox and themepark games so we can make a comparison?

Not at hand.  But I admitted my suspicions were unsupported up front, and made them with regards to someone else's claims that a comparison could be made and would be in favor of themeparks.

You have to back up your claims, you know.

I didn't make any hard claims;  I was merely pontificating in the process of questioning someone else's.  Apologies if that was unclear.  

Here is what we have in terms of solid numbers. TOR, which is viewed as a failure, sold 2M+ boxes in its first 3 MONTHS. Eve, the most touted sandbox game, is at 500k after MANY years. We are not even looking at WOW numbers yet. 

This subtangent spawned off my claim that WOW owns that particular market already.  Ergo, WOW numbers are mostly accounted for in the background.  

I will admit, though, that I set up a goalpost shift when I touched on differing costs of development and operation.  Why is TOR a failure at 2million boxes, while Eve is considered financially successful at 500k?  

You've done what the person I was responding to avoided doing - adequately demonstrated that the market size left open by WoW is larger.  Someone else might question details, but for me to do so at this point would be dishonest.  So I'll concede that particular point.  But the question of whether there's actual money left in that market is still up in the air - beause as you said, TOR's 2M+ box sales is considered a failure :P

EDIT: oh hey, someone else did question details.  Thanks, guy.

Hopefully, because I am tired of the mmos tailored for the I have 10-20 minutes to play, and I expect to gain a level in that time, get good loot, and not risk dying.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@KaosProphet,

I think you are engaging in a bit of reducto-ad-absurdium arguement here.

I'm trying to stick as closely to my original question as I could:  features that are required for group or solo oriented games which nullify the other, not features that merely correlate with them.  I will admit, though, that I did a poor job of doing so.

Was working on sleep deprivation :/

We are not talking about games where it is physicaly impossible to group (single-player games) or physicaly impossible to solo (they attach another character to your hip when you login)....we are talking about games which deliver a quality experience for one or the other....and what each wants is in contradiction to the other.

What I'm asking for is not why that is traditionally true, but why that is necessarily true.  There's a fair bit of difference - your examples demonstrated the former, but not the latter.

Originally posted by cdestey

Originally posted by nariusseldon

If you talk about financial success, sure .. CCP may be a better run company.

But popularity? Almost ANY themepark has more players. AOC, Rift, Aion .. all have more players right off the bat than Eve. In fact, it is pretty bad to only be able to get to 500k after so many years.

Heck, even Freerealm has more players than Eve.

 Only the most popular for me, Nickelback and McDonalds = success.

Quality? What's that mean?

Catering to a specific demographic and thriving within it? Loser talk!

Third party investors aren't getting rich? Must be a FAILURE!!

This is a fundamentally flawed logic to apply here as McDonalds success is due to its low price.

When all MMOs sub costs are the same (15 dollars) then its is obvious which one MMO players prefer.