Greetings.

I recently took a broader look and found out something ridiculous, at least to european/american mindset (we russians are used getting spit in the face after we pay money to someone, or saying in queues just to hear a "fk off" from the vendor, etc).

Basically, when in dark medieval days you bought a pair of boots, you could rely on them being quality product that will serve you well. And if not, you could come back to the marketplace, slap the vendor with the boots you bought, and that was the worst humiliation for the vendor and noone would buy from him afterwards. Nowadays, you dont even have right to EXPECT to have a working product for your money. You pay money, and think its fine that you will get a non-ready, buggy, unstable or even unplayable pieece of shit!

This is especially evident in MMO market.

When Aion got released, it was just unplayable. For several days, people couldnt even start playing the game, they'd just get DC'ed over and over or not being able to log in. I didnt play AIon but i have acquintances who did. It was awful.

When Diablo 3 got released, it had weeks of serious problems. People couldnt log in, or would get DC/ed from the server, auction house would fail to work, etc. It went so bad that it lead to official lawsuits in South Korea! I bought Diablo3 like a week after release and still, for a week or two, i had problems EVERY DAY. Every day i would either be unable to log in, or would have to spend 10 minutes re-typing my password over and over to log in, or would get my money taken and no item delivered from AH for days... Now, people would come on forums and defend the game, saying that ITS OKAY BECAUSE ITS LAUNCH TIME, BE PATIENT IT WILL BE FIXED SOON.

Now i am GW2 fan and awaiting release, and i hear here and there that some of the bugs or obviously missing features wont get fixed and that "we shouldnt be naive and hope it will", that "WvWvW will be unplayable the first several weeks until they fix the lag and find the right balance of amount of people per zone". And that "of course on launch it will be hardly playable because its an MMO launch".

It seems that consumers now believe in their mass that you cannot even HOPE for a launch of an MMO to go as it should. Its not that you cannot demand it, its that you cannot even HOPE for it, since you'd be a fool if you do.

What happened? What happened to our rights, to the idea of capitalism that competition means services will become better and better, and those who cannot provide better quality will move away from market, and those who provide better quality will stay. However, what we see is that the quality is DEGRADING and consumers are manipulated to believe its inevitable and the only way it can actually be.

In past days, there would be no need for patches at all! You could buy a PlayStation game and play it without any patches required at all. You could buy a PC game and play it without any patches required at all, although sometimes they would come out of course. But nothing game breaking would get into release versions. You could expect to buy a game that actually works (if your PC is up to the specs) without issues!

Nowadays, you can buy a game that requires you to install shitloads of DRM software that lags and hangs and fizzles so you spend hours just to get your game going. You can buy a game that has its single player only playable online, and so you have problems playing singleplayer game because company didnt prepare enough servers for all the people in the world playing it. Nowadays, when you buy a Massive Multiplayer Online product, you are told not to expect ANYTHING for your money in the first several days or weeks - like its just okay you pay for nothing!?

If i cannot enjoy the game, because its publisher or developer failed, what am i paying for? Would someone pay for a pair of autumn boots that have holes in them, only to be told that in some weeks or so (maybe over a month) they can receive a free patch that will fix those holes, but meanwhile they'll have their feet constantly soaked because water and dirt come in through the holes?

Worst of all, consumers were pushed to a state when they dont expect to get anything for their money.

What happened?

I have talked about this at length.

http://morgaren.hubpages.com/hub/The-Customer-is-Always-the-Customer

But still I understand what your saying, ultimately bottom line is its a whole lot easier said than done.

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

Greetings.

I recently took a broader look and found out something ridiculous, at least to european/american mindset (we russians are used getting spit in the face after we pay money to someone, or saying in queues just to hear a "fk off" from the vendor, etc).

Basically, when in dark medieval days you bought a pair of boots, you could rely on them being quality product that will serve you well. And if not, you could come back to the marketplace, slap the vendor with the boots you bought, and that was the worst humiliation for the vendor and noone would buy from him afterwards. Nowadays, you dont even have right to EXPECT to have a working product for your money. You pay money, and think its fine that you will get a non-ready, buggy, unstable or even unplayable pieece of shit!

This is especially evident in MMO market.

When Aion got released, it was just unplayable. For several days, people couldnt even start playing the game, they'd just get DC'ed over and over or not being able to log in. I didnt play AIon but i have acquintances who did. It was awful.

When Diablo 3 got released, it had weeks of serious problems. People couldnt log in, or would get DC/ed from the server, auction house would fail to work, etc. It went so bad that it lead to official lawsuits in South Korea! I bought Diablo3 like a week after release and still, for a week or two, i had problems EVERY DAY. Every day i would either be unable to log in, or would have to spend 10 minutes re-typing my password over and over to log in, or would get my money taken and no item delivered from AH for days... Now, people would come on forums and defend the game, saying that ITS OKAY BECAUSE ITS LAUNCH TIME, BE PATIENT IT WILL BE FIXED SOON.

Now i am GW2 fan and awaiting release, and i hear here and there that some of the bugs or obviously missing features wont get fixed and that "we shouldnt be naive and hope it will", that "WvWvW will be unplayable the first several weeks until they fix the lag and find the right balance of amount of people per zone". And that "of course on launch it will be hardly playable because its an MMO launch".

It seems that consumers now believe in their mass that you cannot even HOPE for a launch of an MMO to go as it should. Its not that you cannot demand it, its that you cannot even HOPE for it, since you'd be a fool if you do.

What happened? What happened to our rights, to the idea of capitalism that competition means services will become better and better, and those who cannot provide better quality will move away from market, and those who provide better quality will stay. However, what we see is that the quality is DEGRADING and consumers are manipulated to believe its inevitable and the only way it can actually be.

In past days, there would be no need for patches at all! You could buy a PlayStation game and play it without any patches required at all. You could buy a PC game and play it without any patches required at all, although sometimes they would come out of course. But nothing game breaking would get into release versions. You could expect to buy a game that actually works (if your PC is up to the specs) without issues!

Nowadays, you can buy a game that requires you to install shitloads of DRM software that lags and hangs and fizzles so you spend hours just to get your game going. You can buy a game that has its single player only playable online, and so you have problems playing singleplayer game because company didnt prepare enough servers for all the people in the world playing it. Nowadays, when you buy a Massive Multiplayer Online product, you are told not to expect ANYTHING for your money in the first several days or weeks - like its just okay you pay for nothing!?

If i cannot enjoy the game, because its publisher or developer failed, what am i paying for? Would someone pay for a pair of autumn boots that have holes in them, only to be told that in some weeks or so (maybe over a month) they can receive a free patch that will fix those holes, but meanwhile they'll have their feet constantly soaked because water and dirt come in through the holes?

Worst of all, consumers were pushed to a state when they dont expect to get anything for their money.

What happened?

If someone told me that PC hardware and programming language was reversed engineered from aliens, I wouldn't be surprised.

No piece of hardware of software is perfect.

It is one of those things that somehow works.

In fact professional software and hardware are more expensive because you have access to someone to solve your problems ASAP.

Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.

Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?

There are people out there that will pay good money just to get into closed betas. Gamers are impulsive and impatient. They will gladly pay money before they even know about any feature in a game, simply because a certain company made it, or because they love the IP. I realize I'm making some broad generalizations here but lets face it. Gamers are not known to wait for trials, open betas or even waiting 3 - 5 months after a game is released to make sure a game has been fixed to a playable state/all features added. It's true you can't rely on third hand accounts if you will like something, but a little common sense is in order.

Originally posted by Starpower

Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.

 

Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?

Professional software and hardware as well!

A good example would be the latest Prototype 2 installment or SWTOR mmo.

You pay the full price only to find out that your money wasnt worth that price.

Its the way it goes these days, most stuff is junkfood.

I remember playing 120 hours in FF7, the game 

Most games woulnt even break 10 hours these days.

In mmo's you come across so much crap its unbeleiveble, and they make massive amounts of profits of it.

As long as people buy with the millions it aint going to change.

Originally posted by Starpower

Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.

 

Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?

Kinda this. Problem lies in mass ignorance, convenience over information and aggressive marketing.

---

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

Basically, when in dark medieval days you bought a pair of boots, you could rely on them being quality product that will serve you well. And if not, you could come back to the marketplace, slap the vendor with the boots you bought, and that was the worst humiliation for the vendor and noone would buy from him afterwards.

---

Source?

Developers are not responsible for your expectations, especially if you expect same service and guarantees of console off-line game in an MMO.

You can only blame yourself.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Starpower

Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.

 

Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?

Now, if you meant that you should research what the game is like before buying it, then i agree with you 100%. A lot of people hate TOR because they have to "space bat past dialogues" or because "this game has space combat on rails" - those people didnt do the research, they cannot blame EA or Bioware for that this game has a lot of cut-scenes and space combat on rails, since that was well advertised and INTENDED.  If consumer didnt research and bought a peach while he wanted an apple, its his problem that peach doesnt taste exactly like an apple.

However, in the way you stated it, this here is the key to the problem. The whole idea of customer rights, of capitalism's competition, of certification, of quailty control is so that you do not have to "research before invest". Customer is not an investor playing on some NASDAQ. Customer is a customer. The whole idea is to have only quality products available on the market. Products that do not deliver the service they advertise should not be present at all!

Customer should not research wether or not to "invest" into Nestle's Cornflakes, because it they are on the shelf in the shop, they are supposed to be

a) edible

b) hazard-free (unless specifically noted on the pack)

That is because customer has no way to actually "research before investing" in capitalism. There is no way a small post worker or janitor can research wether a giant transcontinental corporation is adhering to all the laws, and has clean production process, only uses correct ingredients, etc etc. Thats why government is supposed to do it, or specific commitees or other kinds of groups of people who get paid for that.

Bottom line, they give you the negative sides of being "free", but they retract from you the positive sides of being "free". This is ridiculous and just one big mind manipulation, since through media and other means people were converted into believing that is how its supposed to do.

Bottom line, they take your money without making you entitled to ANYTHING! Was Error 37 and Error 1 advertised as well as other Diablo 3 features? Was Auction House announced with all its flaws it had for the first several weeks (and continues to have now - read online about stories how Blizzard just robs its customers of real $$$)? No it wasnt.

When you buy a can of beans, you are entitled to an amount of beans (printed on the can) of acceptable quality (edible, fresh, not rotten etc). When you buy an MMO, especially at launch, you are entitled to nothing. You can get less than you were advertised - like, only able to play 1/4 of the time, since 3/4 of the time its connection problems, queues etc, or only PVE part, since PVP is lagging beyond ridiculous or just unplayable. However, game was advertised with servers online 24/7 except one-time weekly maintenance, and with both PVE and PVP features!

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

Originally posted by Starpower

Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.

 

Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?

Now, if you meant that you should research what the game is like before buying it, then i agree with you 100%. A lot of people hate TOR because they have to "space bat past dialogues" or because "this game has space combat on rails" - those people didnt do the research, they cannot blame EA or Bioware for that. If consumer didnt research and bought a peach while he wanted an apple, its his problem that peach doesnt taste exactly like an apple.

However, in the way you stated it, this here is the key to the problem. The whole idea of customer rights, of capitalism's competition, of certification, of quailty control is so that you do not have to "research before invest". Customer is not an investor playing on some NASDAQ. Customer is a customer. The whole idea is to have only quality products available on the market. Products that do not deliver the service they advertise should not be present at all!

Customer should not research wether or not to "invest" into Nestle's Cornflakes, because it they are on the shelf in the shop, they are supposed to be

a) edible

b) hazard-free (unless specifically noted on the pack)

That is because customer has no way to actually "research before investing" in capitalism. There is no way a small post worker or janitor can research wether a giant transcontinental corporation is adhering to all the laws, and has clean production process, only uses correct ingredients, etc etc. Thats why government is supposed to do it, or specific commitees or other kinds of groups of people who get paid for that.

Bottom line, they give you the negative sides of being "free", but they retract from you the positive sides of being "free". This is ridiculous and just one big mind manipulation, since through media and other means people were converted into believing that is how its supposed to do.

Lets not steer this conversation into something else that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. We are not talking about produce here with lethal levels of pesticides and laws to protect us from it.

We are talking about consumer products namely software. I drew paralells to other products. Not if they were "safe" or adher to any enviromental or safety laws. That's a side discussion for another time and has nothing to do with this discussion or my comparison

A simply product research if a product holds to its promises, if the product is right for you etc. Software namely games, has a few advantages over a vaccum cleaner. Not only do most gamers have access to the internet to talk about games, but you have a slew of gaming magazines, which granted can't tell you if you will like something, they can however tell you if the game is playable or not or has any undesireable features such as permadeath as an example. This makes you able to make an informed decision. Not only that but if you wait awhile chances are you are going to get a trial too

The world has changed.. we now have the internetz.... if you live on the north pole in a igloo with a laptop and no connection, then hop on a sled and get your ass to civilization or get to a library and use google.

Capitalism works great when a myriad of small companies are competing for the customers, computer games were like that in the 80s and early 90s.

Now we have something called "oligopoly" which means that a few large corporations sells similar products for a high price, just as with gasolin and oil.

Companies like EA and Activision will buy out any smaller competitor that they see as a threat.

Yes, games in general and MMOs in particular should really not releasing in the shape we get them in (but I frankly think GW2 is in surprisingly good shape).

But part of the fault is ours, as consumers it is our duty to research something before we buy it and if we stop buying broken #¤%% we would force EA & Activision to release games in better shape or to close down.

---

Originally posted by Starpower

Lets not steer this conversation into something else that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. We are not talking about produce here with lethal levels of pesticides and laws to protect us from it.

---

It is not off-topic, principle is exactly the same.

Problem is, OP does not understand how capitalism and free market works. Assuming he is from Russia, I give a credit to a history of society of strong authorities which creates a certain mindset in people, a mindset that will seek same pattern long after the regime has changed.

There are no customer rights. There is only support and demand. People get what they pay for and any authority claiming that they should get something else is very much non-capitalistic in principle.

Example:

You say: "The whole idea is to have only quality products available on the market. "

This is a nonsense! Who is deciding what this quality is supposed to be? You imply there should be some institution or authority to do it for you... This is not how it works, it is the people who decide what quality is worth what money. On the contrary, the whole point is to have similar products of different "qualities" on the market and you can freely chose which one you buy.

There is no obligations from developers to make a game(or in fact any product) fitting your standards. It is entirely possible you won't find a product 100% fulfilling your needs on the market and that is just fine, you either buy the one that is the closest or you won't buy any.

It is all in your hands so stop asking someone to take this power and freedom from you.

2 Starpower

Sorry, but I dont agree with your argumentation at all. You are saying that "we have internet so you can research if you want the product or not by googling". Again, if you're talking about people disstatisfied with game being not what they wanted it to be, its a fine argument. And i agree with you there. But i'm talking about a different problem.

To make it simple, tell me, why am i entitled to receive what's written on the box or advertised (like, a litre of water in a bottle of water, or a kg of beans in a can of beans), and if someone buys a can of beans and finds its half empty, he will feel scammed and feel he was not given money's worth, and it is considered okay. But i am not entitled to receive the product i was advertised and written on the box and online, when its gaming software?

Why is it okay that i bought D3 but cannot play its SINGLE PLAYER part because Blizz have server-side problems? Why its okay that i bought an MMO that is supposed to be online 24/7 but is constnatly going down or being unplayable because of server-side problems? Why is this considered a norm, but getting half the amount of lemonade in a one litre bottle isnt considered a norm at all?

I dont see "software and hardware is flawed cos its made by humans" as a valid argument. Satellite TV is made by humans but it very rarely doesnt deliver the service you bought. Food is made by humans but you very rarely see bottles of water or cans of beans half-filled. More than that, if you get something that is flawed, you are entitled a partial refund or compensation, unless its software and especially gaming software, where you are entitled to nothing even though you just paid 60 euro.

Gaming is the exception to the law in my opinion.

Most things in this world are "you get what you pay for" with thte exception of Apple products that are overpirced crap.

I'll use my other hobby as an example,   I'm a very keen cyclist who covers 200km a week.

I would never buy a £200 bike as they are just rubbish, heavy, poor parts and generally will cost you as much in repairs over a decade as just spending £2000 on a good bike in the first place would have.  The same can be applied to pretty much everything else.

Gaming doesnt really work this way though there can be a blinding indie game for under a fiver or you can be expecte to pay £60 for what turns out to be a 4 hour long lemon.  

Originally posted by Gdemami

It is not off-topic, principle is exactly the same.

Problem is, OP does not understand how capitalism and free market works. Assuming he is from Russia, I give a credit to a history of society of strong authorities which creates a certain mindset in people, a mindset that will seek same pattern long after the regime has changed.

There are no customer rights. There is only support and demand. People get what they pay for and any authority claiming that they should get something else is very much non-capitalistic in principle.

Example:

You say: "The whole idea is to have only quality products available on the market. "

This is a nonsense! Who is deciding what this quality is supposed to be? You imply there should be some institution or authority to do it for you... This is not how it works, it is the people who decide what quality is worth what money. On the contrary, the whole point is to have similar products of different "qualities" on the market and you can freely chose which one you buy.

There is no obligations from developers to make a game(or in fact any product) fitting your standards. It is entirely possible you won't find a product 100% fulfilling your needs on the market and that is just fine, you either buy the one that is the closest or you won't buy any.

It is all in your hands so stop asking someone to take this power and freedom from you.

The real freedom today is for the corps, not the consumers. I mean we can choose betweena Windows PC or to run it on an OS that supports a handful games at best. The US government did in fact try to force Microsoft to a whole bunch of things and won that thing about the browser even but in the long run the larger corporations usually win.

There is several kinds of capitalism, now it is Wall street that controls the west, not Obama, EU or NATO.

But regulations are very dangerous as well, just as allowing large corps to do exactly as they want as the oil companies did in Sudan which didn´t turn out so great for the people living there.

The whole issue is really complicated, but campanies need some kind of regulations. However EA and Activision aren´t exactly forcing people to leave their homes like Lundin oil and BP so the whole thing would be more or less self regulating if people just bought the good games and avoided the crappy ones.

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

2 Starpower

Sorry, but I dont agree with your argumentation at all. You are saying that "we have internet so you can research if you want the product or not by googling". Again, if you're talking about people disstatisfied with game being not what they wanted it to be, its a fine argument. And i agree with you there. But i'm talking about a different problem.

To make it simple, tell me, why am i entitled to receive what's written on the box or advertised (like, a litre of water in a bottle of water, or a kg of beans in a can of beans), and if someone buys a can of beans and finds its half empty, he will feel scammed and feel he was not given money's worth, and it is considered okay. But i am not entitled to receive the product i was advertised and written on the box and online, when its gaming software?

Why is it okay that i bought D3 but cannot play its SINGLE PLAYER part because Blizz have server-side problems? Why its okay that i bought an MMO that is supposed to be online 24/7 but is constnatly going down or being unplayable because of server-side problems? Why is this considered a norm, but getting half the amount of lemonade in a one litre bottle isnt considered a norm at all?

I dont see "software and hardware is flawed cos its made by humans" as a valid argument. Satellite TV is made by humans but it very rarely doesnt deliver the service you bought. Food is made by humans but you very rarely see bottles of water or cans of beans half-filled. More than that, if you get something that is flawed, you are entitled a partial refund or compensation, unless its software and especially gaming software, where you are entitled to nothing even though you just paid 60 euro.

Well if you are talking about something like "Join incredible PvP battles in 4 different conquest maps" then find out that PvP hasn't been added yet or scrapped completely then yes I agree you're entitled to a refund. If the company won't give one then a backcharge is in order. That's why we have consumer laws

Originally posted by thamighty213

Gaming is the exception to the law in my opinion.

Most things in this world are "you get what you pay for" with thte exception of Apple products that are overpirced crap.

I'll use my other hobby as an example,   I'm a very keen cyclist who covers 200km a week.

I would never buy a £200 bike as they are just rubbish, heavy, poor parts and generally will cost you as much in repairs over a decade as just spending £2000 on a good bike in the first place would have.  The same can be applied to pretty much everything else.

Gaming doesnt really work this way though there can be a blinding indie game for under a fiver or you can be expecte to pay £60 for what turns out to be a 4 hour long lemon.  

A bycycle is rather cheap to make. A MMO cost over $50M at least, expensive stuff like that are always outside the rules.

Drilling oil is also expensive so a few companies control the market. Same with fighter planes, graphics cards and CPUs, medicine, basically anything that have a very high development cost.

Stuff like beer or anything else 2 competent guys could make with good quality in their garage (as they could with games on the C-64) works fine.

---

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

Why its okay that i bought an MMO that is supposed to be online 24/7 but is constnatly going down or being unplayable because of server-side problems?

---

If I sell you a windmill, would you blame me for wind not blowing?

Some things are expected, yet unforeseeable, unavoidable and out of or very difficult to control.

I believe the Romans had a phrase for exactly what you are describing. 

Caveat Emptor.

2 Gdemami (big post)

Wait, so its only in Russia we are entitled to receive what's written on the pack? I though, when you buy a can of beans in US/EU, and it says "1000 g" on the pack, and you find out that there's only 500g inside, you are entitled a refund or can sue them, cant you?

I'm not talking about someone dictating what quality is. Maybe i used a wrong word. I am talking about government and social institutions controlling corporations, so that they are not scamming individuals who have no financial power to challenge them.

Once again, i'm not talking about someone dictating to the market what is a quality MMO and what isnt, so that, say, Darkfall and SWTOR are forced to close because they are "not quality". I am talking about you being entitled to receive what's advertised, what's written on the box, on the website, what's implied by official statements.

I'm talking about people being convinced by media and other sources that you are not entitled to anything when you buy software, especially games. Not statisfaction, amount of hours the game "hooks you", which is indeed personal. But plain ability to use what's advertised!

* I bought Duke Nukem 3D and it said officially i can have PVE and PVP there. And i could, right off the bat.

* I bought Diablo 3 and i couldnt even PVE, have "single player console experience", for the first several weeks!

* I bought an MMO that advertises PVE and PVP as two main activities, but i am told by people that i shouldnt expect PVP to work right off the bat, maybe some weeks after launch or so, and that i am stupid to expect the launch go smoothly, and pvp working right off the bat, even though officially they announce it as one of the main activities to do in the game and available from level 1.

---

And to reply to your small post about wind not blowing, this is clearly a wrong analogy. You could use that analogy if the problems would be client-side, like bad intenet connection or something. With gaming today its clearly server-side problems that cause it (i dont think you'll argue that Error 37 was caused by everybody in the world having internet connection/pc problems?)