Originally posted by Icewhite

Essentially.  But that offends some people to their core, for some reason.

Vets always find MMOs too easy, because MMOs are designed so Newbies can succeed too.  But the newbie phase in this sort of game is really short, while the sneer-at-newbies chest-thumping phase lasts forever.

Well the core problem is that in most MMORPGs if you do that you not only fail to earn equal rewards for people playing it easy, but you actually progress slower!

Take WOW for example: If you fight hard mobs you might take twice as long to kill each mob, and earn 20% more XP per mob. So you advance only 60% as fast as you would by fighting easy mobs.

So no wonder players are offended: they choose challenge and the game slaps em in the face for it!

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Icewhite

Essentially.  But that offends some people to their core, for some reason.

Vets always find MMOs too easy, because MMOs are designed so Newbies can succeed too.  But the newbie phase in this sort of game is really short, while the sneer-at-newbies chest-thumping phase lasts forever.

Well the core problem is that in most MMORPGs if you do that you not only fail to earn equal rewards for people playing it easy, but you actually progress slower!

Take WOW for example: If you fight hard mobs you might take twice as long to kill each mob, and earn 20% more XP per mob. So you advance only 60% as fast as you would by fighting easy mobs.

So no wonder players are offended: they choose challenge and the game slaps em in the face for it!

Just for the sake of the argument; if folks who are "looking for a challenge" truly just want to challenge themselves, then why should they care if they are progressing more slowly than anyone else? You're in it for the challenge, right? Why should your rewards be truly greater than anyone else's? Is a more challenging style of play a more valid form of play than anything else?

I'm not arguing that risk vs. reward shouldn't exist, but at the same time, if you are going to do things the hard way, well then you should expect things to be harder. Often times harder means slower.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

Originally posted by Kaneth

Just for the sake of the argument; if folks who are "looking for a challenge" truly just want to challenge themselves, then why should they care if they are progressing more slowly than anyone else? You're in it for the challenge, right? Why should your rewards be truly greater than anyone else's? Is a more challenging style of play a more valid form of play than anything else?

I'm not arguing that risk vs. reward shouldn't exist, but at the same time, if you are going to do things the hard way, well then you should expect things to be harder. Often times harder means slower.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

Yes you're right.  They're not just looking for a challenge.  They're looking for a challenge in a fun game where they're not penalized for accomplishing harder things.

What was discussed in the previous post was the idea that players could freely find challenge at any time by tackling higher level mobs -- but this is commonly known as doing things "the hard way" because it's a stupid idea in most MMORPGs (due to the problem I just described: much slower kills for barely better rewards.)

It's simply solved by doing what CoX did back in the day: rewarding harder accomplishments appropriately (by yielding enough XP to overcome the slower rate of killing.)  This creates a game where everyone is dynamically able to select their challenge (do you fight even-level mobs or +5 level mobs?) and you're rewarded more and more the tougher challenge you tackle.

Just wanted to say that I wish these forums had many more well-written posts like the OP. I look forward to reading and participating in many of your future threads, Lauski.

I hesitate to agree 100% with what you're saying about difficulty in games in general. I feel that there are some games where the point is not to be challenged, and if you look for a way to be challenged by the game, you're going to be disappointed. I'm thinking of games like Phoenix Wright, Portal, and Monkey Island. You're presented with challenges and those are difficult, but there's no clear way to make them more difficult. If you change the puzzle to make it more difficult, you've created a new puzzle. Additionally, you don't really "fail" in these games (even in the ones where you can die or get a Game Over). Failing is just the point where you give up and come back to it later... or never. Unlike Fallout or the Witcher, failing in these games doesn't exist as part of an iterative try-fail-learn cycle. That's not how players get better at Portal.

In one sense, trying and failing over and over means that a game is difficult. But that kind of difficulty can backfire. I remember trying to play through Half-Life 2 way back when it was new, and at some points, I'd get stuck trying to clear a particular room while low on health and I'd have to keep trying it over and over. Eventually, I was playing the room as more of a puzzle than an FPS. I knew where the enemies were coming from and I was experimenting with killing them in a specific order while standing in specific places. Even though I relish difficult games, I didn't like playing Half-Life like this. It felt wrong to eventually clear that room by using my skill and knowledge of that room rather than using my skill and knowledge of the game as a whole. My eventual solution for that room didn't feel FPS-y. I had puzzled out a solution rather than reacting to threats as they appeared. Being able to fail and iterate so many times erased my perception of the difficulty and stopped me from experiencing the game as I wanted to experience it.

With that in mind, I don't think it would be fair to call MMO developers out on not including a way to experience a harder difficulty if you're breezing through. High difficulty can change what it is like to play a game, and that's delicate business for an MMO. Usually failure means repeating what you were just doing (so that you can try to do it right), but there's sooo much repetition in MMOs already. Even after succeeding, you're going to do again what you were just doing. This makes the penalty (lack of progression, or backwards progression) the ONLY difference between a success and a failure. You're going to try again either way. There's a lot of danger inherent in penalizing just for penalty's sake.

So because failure is so different in an MMO—just as it's so different in Portal or Monkey Island or whatever—I think it's okay for MMO developers to keep challenge on a tight leash and decide just how they want players to experience challenge in their game.

Originally posted by Lauski

What do you guys think?

Is it time for MMO developers to include more tiers of difficulty and challenge for all types of players and reward them appropriately? No matter what type of "casual" or "hardcore" player they are?

 1. fantastic post...need more like this on this site.

2. Yes they do need it but guess what? Not going to happen due to difficulty.

Mobs and thier actions are handled server side. For them to add difficulty levels per player the servers would have to be able to identify each individual player and their difficulty settings with each engagement and apply them on the fly vastly increases server stress.

What they CAN do easily but do not because they are lazy azz mother %&#$#$! is to do tiered content based not only on level but also skills trained.

player = level 1, Mob = level 1 and can "chop"

If player = level 2, mob = level 2 with level 2 stats and can "Chop" and "kneecap".

if player = healer level 2, mob = level 2 with level 2 stats and can "shout" to inerupt.

This can also be applied to groups.

If group = level 2 mage and level 2 healer, mob = 3 with level 3 stats and be given more interupts, CCs

if group = 3 players, mob = level 4 with level 4 stats with more CCs, interupts and better melee defense or magic defense depending on group classes.

Scaled content is the way to go and should also fit what you are looking for in a more doable way.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Scaled content is the way to go and should also fit what you are looking for in a more doable way.

Plus we can easily point at examples where it already works; a big bonus for the "frightened of change" capital, or players.

But old game really can't be retrofit for it; the combat math has to be built right from the beginning, you can't lean on hardcoded shortcuts, and its unlikely you'll ever get an ok to retrofit tens of millions of lines of code.

Man i just couldn't do it,this topic needs way too many exmples and decritions to achieve the proper answers.

So i'll just say YES i agree,the BEST way to acvhieve all of it ,is not by reinventing any wheel just by adding DEPTH to the game play.

here is a perfect example RENKAI system as to depth other games do NOT achieve including Wow.MOST games have generic hotbar spamming,1-3 second delays.it seriously does not take much thinking when you are just spamming buttons on the hot bar.

The Renkai onlyu scratched the surface ,so much more could have been expnaded on and improved.The other basics you need for depth are utilizing,aging,terrain,elemental properties [fire/earth/wind],weather,moon phases,day/night,various melee and magical resistances and properties.I am sure there is more i didn't try to think fo them all,my point is the TRINITY system is the best all you need is a developer to put some effort into the depth of the game systems.This means by even improving the VERY superficial character creation systems that games use.

You should have class properties,racial properties.There should be several variations of gear  so that players can achieve their own personal character  design.There should not be that ONE TIER set then you are able to take on the top instance bosses,that is not game design that is lazy design.

So as to not confuse that SAME depth should go into the mobs Ai and how mobs react,example can they see well or hear well,do they react to injured players[smell blood],exampel the undead.You need that same depth in weapons,most games you just grab the weapon that shows the highest stats and that is it,again LAZY design.You should have a in depth system for example blunt weapons and guns do more damage versus thick boned creatures and piercing does more versus weak flesh creatures.then you need a whole accuracy system,flying creatures should have higher evasion or perhaps cat like creatures are more evasive.Some creatures like undead cannot be charmed or slept because they have no brain.

it is all easily doable in each character and mobs information and data systems.

Right now there  is a horrifying trend to go EASIER/SOLO/FASTER MORE hand holding,END GAME and generic combat design all with spamming hotbar icons.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Man i just couldn't do it,this topic needs way too many exmples and decritions to achieve the proper answers.

So i'll just say YES i agree,the BEST way to acvhieve all of it ,is not by reinventing any wheel just by adding DEPTH to the game play.

here is a perfect example RENKAI system as to depth other games do NOT achieve including Wow.MOST games have generic hotbar spamming,1-3 second delays.it seriously does not take much thinking when you are just spamming buttons on the hot bar.

The Renkai onlyu scratched the surface ,so much more could have been expnaded on and improved.The other basics you need for depth are utilizing,aging,terrain,elemental properties [fire/earth/wind],weather,moon phases,day/night,various melee and magical resistances and properties.I am sure there is more i didn't try to think fo them all,my point is the TRINITY system is the best all you need is a developer to put some effort into the depth of the game systems.This means by even improving the VERY superficial character creation systems that games use.

You should have class properties,racial properties.There should be several variations of gear  so that players can achieve their own personal character  design.There should not be that ONE TIER set then you are able to take on the top instance bosses,that is not game design that is lazy design.

So as to not confuse that SAME depth should go into the mobs Ai and how mobs react,example can they see well or hear well,do they react to injured players[smell blood],exampel the undead.You need that same depth in weapons,most games you just grab the weapon that shows the highest stats and that is it,again LAZY design.You should have a in depth system for example blunt weapons and guns do more damage versus thick boned creatures and piercing does more versus weak flesh creatures.then you need a whole accuracy system,flying creatures should have higher evasion or perhaps cat like creatures are more evasive.Some creatures like undead cannot be charmed or slept because they have no brain.

 

it is all easily doable in each character and mobs information and data systems.

Right now there  is a horrifying trend to go EASIER/SOLO/FASTER MORE hand holding,END GAME and generic combat design all with spamming hotbar icons.

1. Depth doesn't make something a challenge.  I could play a deep game like Chess against a 6-year old and still be bored out of my mind with the lack of challenge.  So your post feels unrelated to a discussion about a game having multiple difficulty options.

2. Complexity isn't depth.  The chart you listed definitely makes that game seem overly complex, however my experience with "complex on first glance" games tends to be that they're not actually all that deep.  They're just messy.

3. Trinity role mechanics are proven, but it's silly to call them "best".  Puzzle Pirates is a great example of a game with more than 3 roles, and roles which bear no resemblance to tank/healer/dps.  Plenty of other unexplored ideas could work in MMORPGs, much like how GW2 is trying something new (but even if it falls flat, there are tons of types of MMO teamplay which could be fun.)  Again, the Trinity clearly works (and works well) but let's not kid ourselves that it's "best" automatically.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Scaled content is the way to go and should also fit what you are looking for in a more doable way.

Scaled content is the opposite of what I want in games. If enemies automatically become more difficult to defeat as soon as I level up, it's the same as not levelling up at all. I would much rather see the enemies that I'm defeating become easier to defeat, so that I can then say "Hmm, I'm feeling like I'm really badass now, I can handle mobs that are even more of a challenge." Same goes for group/solo content. It's rewarding the first time you're able to solo against things that you used to regularly fight in a full group. But if those monsters instantly shrink down to soloable status as soon as your group disbands, you'll never experience that feeling.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by jtcgs

Scaled content is the way to go and should also fit what you are looking for in a more doable way.

Scaled content is the opposite of what I want in games. If enemies automatically become more difficult to defeat as soon as I level up, it's the same as not levelling up at all. I would much rather see the enemies that I'm defeating become easier to defeat, so that I can then say "Hmm, I'm feeling like I'm really badass now, I can handle mobs that are even more of a challenge." Same goes for group/solo content. It's rewarding the first time you're able to solo against things that you used to regularly fight in a full group. But if those monsters instantly shrink down to soloable status as soon as your group disbands, you'll never experience that feeling.

I completely agree.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Kaneth

Yes you're right.  They're not just looking for a challenge.  They're looking for a challenge in a fun game where they're not penalized for accomplishing harder things.

What was discussed in the previous post was the idea that players could freely find challenge at any time by tackling higher level mobs -- but this is commonly known as doing things "the hard way" because it's a stupid idea in most MMORPGs (due to the problem I just described: much slower kills for barely better rewards.)

It's simply solved by doing what CoX did back in the day: rewarding harder accomplishments appropriately (by yielding enough XP to overcome the slower rate of killing.)  This creates a game where everyone is dynamically able to select their challenge (do you fight even-level mobs or +5 level mobs?) and you're rewarded more and more the tougher challenge you tackle.

Fallout 3's the harder game settings also rewarded the player with higher XP rewards. The raised XP amounts and the resulting faster advancement made the endgame incredibly easy. I admit that this partly because the level-scaling didn't keep up, but wouldn't the different advancement speeds possibly cause issues in an MMO with encounter and content design and possibly scaling in ever increasing amount before a hard cap (possibly a level cap)?

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by jtcgs

Scaled content is the way to go and should also fit what you are looking for in a more doable way.

Scaled content is the opposite of what I want in games. If enemies automatically become more difficult to defeat as soon as I level up, it's the same as not levelling up at all. I would much rather see the enemies that I'm defeating become easier to defeat, so that I can then say "Hmm, I'm feeling like I'm really badass now, I can handle mobs that are even more of a challenge." Same goes for group/solo content. It's rewarding the first time you're able to solo against things that you used to regularly fight in a full group. But if those monsters instantly shrink down to soloable status as soon as your group disbands, you'll never experience that feeling.

The real joy of scalable content is that it's adjustable.  Turning it up to max makes you unhappy?  Fine, don't do that then.

You often find in such games that the max setting is solely for e-peenery, not necessarily a very good game.  The whole psychology game of "challenge" means that there is no answer, cannot be, that fits all sizes...someone's always going to be unhappy, because there are always someones using "challenge" as an ego prop.

Only way I see mmorpg could have "diffrent difficulities" is either:

- have enough content so there is plenty of content with 'medium difficulty' and plenty 'hard' and plenty 'easy', etc 

or 

- have diffrent difficulty servers

Way with instancing most of content so player can choose difficulty of instance / zone he's getting into = I am not interested in playing that kind of mmorpg.

Tried CoX but found that for myself personally this is horrible design.

Don't like instanced lobby-like mmorpg's.

Server's should have different difficulty settings?

Originally posted by Icewhite

The real joy of scalable content is that it's adjustable.  Turning it up to max makes you unhappy?  Fine, don't do that then.

You often find in such games that the max setting is solely for e-peenery, not necessarily a very good game.  The whole psychology game of "challenge" means that there is no answer, cannot be, that fits all sizes...someone's always going to be unhappy, because there are always someones using "challenge" as an ego prop.

Oblivion was the primary reason people even though scalable content was bad.  Because it scaled everything in a very unelegant way.  But we've seen other games since then scale things better, and feel MUCH better.  

Challenge used for "ego" is kinda part of the point.  If a game doesn't let players exhibit enough mastery that they feel they can take pride in their accomplishments, many aren't going to feel it's worth playing at all.  If a game's challenges are shallow enough that a chimpanzee can play on equal footing with you, you'll probably lose interest rapidly.  Not because you can't show off your ego -- that's not usually the driving goal for players -- but simply because the game is shallow and therefore uninteresting.

So really the ability to show off ego is an indicating factor of game depth (or at least perceived game depth, since a lot of players go ego-crazy in some pretty shallow games. ;) )

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by jtcgs

Scaled content is the way to go and should also fit what you are looking for in a more doable way.

Scaled content is the opposite of what I want in games. If enemies automatically become more difficult to defeat as soon as I level up, it's the same as not levelling up at all. I would much rather see the enemies that I'm defeating become easier to defeat, so that I can then say "Hmm, I'm feeling like I'm really badass now, I can handle mobs that are even more of a challenge." Same goes for group/solo content. It's rewarding the first time you're able to solo against things that you used to regularly fight in a full group. But if those monsters instantly shrink down to soloable status as soon as your group disbands, you'll never experience that feeling.

 Then you prefer the carrot on the stick themepark way of playing.

Some find challenge to be fun, some find the feeling of being more powerful to be fun, some think rolling over mobs is fun and you cant have a game to please all of them.

Right now, the biggest issue all MMORPGs face is keeping up with content...and all content in a game can stay in use with scaled content. Scaled content keeps 100% of the game playable...no more level based areas, no more instances that are for certain levels. and 100% of the game can become open right from the start. It removes so many of the limitations MMOs have with content right now. it even makes it so 100% of the game can be a solo challenge...or a group/raid challenge further removing even more limitations MMOs have.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Oblivion was the primary reason people even though scalable content was bad.  Because it scaled everything in a very unelegant way.  But we've seen other games since then scale things better, and feel MUCH better.  

Oblivion? How about Marrowing? Go look in the TESO forums here and read the ton of comments about people talking about how TES was great because of...scalable content.

Its the very reason why Marrowind and Oblivion are still receiving mods today after all these years and the modding community is so large...the entire game is alive and well because 100% of the game is still playable at max level. A game without scalable content becomes a bore after awhile because you have few things you can still do in the game...in TES games, you can continue to explore the entire game world just like you were doing at level 1 and still be somewhat challenged.

leveled content = done when you out level it except for steamrolling and farming which should never be a part of any game.

scaled content = repeatable for as long as you want to repeat it and still be challenged like you were a YEAR ago.

Originally posted by ArChWind

I wish they would add a real hardcore mode call perma-death. That is about as challenging as it gets.

I think this is a terrible idea for an MMORPG. What would most likely happen is instead of going into that dangerous dungeon to fight whatever mobs it will be nah I am level 10, no way am I going to die now! So it would end up no one doing anything dangerous and everyone will just harvest/craft and gradually we will all be playing sims online....my gf would love that.....

Originally posted by jtcgs

 Then you prefer the carrot on the stick themepark way of playing.

Some find challenge to be fun, some find the feeling of being more powerful to be fun, some think rolling over mobs is fun and you cant have a game to please all of them.

Right now, the biggest issue all MMORPGs face is keeping up with content...and all content in a game can stay in use with scaled content. Scaled content keeps 100% of the game playable...no more level based areas, no more instances that are for certain levels. and 100% of the game can become open right from the start. It removes so many of the limitations MMOs have with content right now. it even makes it so 100% of the game can be a solo challenge...or a group/raid challenge further removing even more limitations MMOs have.

I really don't think making blanket assumptions about a person's preferred "way of playing", especially when using negative connotations to boot, is helpful to anyone and does anything other than generate flame.

"Right now, the biggest issue all MMORPGs face is keeping up with content"

No. The biggest issue with all MMORPG's is that they suck. Content has nothing to do with it, 1% whining about content doesn't do jack to a company's earnings.

Speaking of scaled content, GW2 is attempting that atm. But I assure you GW2 will go nowhere if it's unfun to play.

Originally posted by jtcgs

...Marrowing...

...Marrowind...

How do you even...

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Originally posted by jtcgs ...Marrowing... ...Marrowind...

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