It's no secret that the usual form of MMORPG combat we see in the major games today is a little bit on the boring side.  Select target, autoattack, spam powers.  There's nothing to really differentiate the different types of combat.  Melee is ranged is magic, just with different sparkly effects.  It's all the same target and hotkey.

There seem to be a lot of good discussions about how to make the melee combat a bit more interesting.  What I'm looking for is a good discussion on the ranged side of things.

Now, it seems that the as a reaction to the type of combat we see in WoW, Rift, ToR, some games have gone to the opposite extreme and implemented a first person shooter style of ranged combat.  I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to make combat a bit more engaging and skillful, but I personally think these games (like Darkfall) take it a bit too far.  

These games are still RPGs, and so I would like my character to have an effect on combat, not just my own personal skill as a player.  If my character is a Master Archer and has 100 skill, why can a new player hit targets more accurately than me just because he's better with this FPS style combat?  That takes a way some of the immersion of having a character who progresses in his skills.

So where's the middle ground?  What are our options here to make ranged combat more engaging but keep character skill involved?  

One method I like is what we see in Mount and Blade.  It's still the shooter-style combat, but character skill plays a role as well.  The higher your skill, the more quickly your targeting recticule shrinks and it is smaller (more accurate).  You still have to take the time and aim, but a skilled character makes it easier on you.

Another game that added a little bit was Asheron's Call.  It was still an auto-attack, but you could use a slider to make trade-offs between speed and accuracy, and you could aim your shots High, Medium, or Low, depending on your target.  It added a little extra engagement.

I like something similar to Mount and Blade, and maybe even a little more towards traditional RPG combat.  You can still select a target, but you have to hold your mouse on him while you line up the shot.  Depending on your skill, you go from having a high miss chance to a low miss chance over a few seconds.  I would also like to see combat skills or powers, which of course aren't present in Mount and Blade.

So what do you think?  

Nice! Trading between speed and accuracy with a charge up slider is a very nice way to vary things. Having different attacks for different situations is smart too. Area Effect attacks with lower DPS-per-target, Secondary Effect attacks for fleeing or charging enemies is cool - aiming for the legs, as you pointed out. If Ranged Combat is a class' main thing, then they should have multiple necessary options (as opposed to flavor options not used by the competitive) to make that happen.

One wa to make the slider necessary is to have different armor degrees. Many mobs need a charged attack, but not fully charged, to maximize dps, while other mobs can be more quickly picked off by rapid fire.

Could also have it so that character skill + strength + equipment (IE Bows) help determines the range the arrows will go. The bow will have a base range. If your character skill is beginner, your range will be debuffed until skills gets higher. If you are a master, you get a buff on range.

Strength will also help as it will determine how much you can draw on the bow (power = range) and also how long you can hold it in a drawn state while you aim.

Wheres the middle ground? 

Thats a good question. Pure stat calculations vs pure dextrous aiming and timing. Mount & Blade does reach an OK middle ground in general but ranged weapons still takes more learned experiance at using them than straight up stats.

Here are some things I think makes ranged combat better from the FPS side

-Hit location affects damage

-Ranged weapon ballistics

-Things with less health to kill

-Things that move around unpredictably

Dumb down the FPS part and make it easier for less dextrious RPG gamers?

Add in what I listed to an already heavy RPG to suit the FPS gamers?

Or have a mix of both FPS and RPG but add in aim assisting (at a cost of lower damage/accuracy)? The hardcore FPS junkies would likely still reign suprieme head-to-head though.

I don't know. I don't know what is technically possible. Also not sure how you keep both types of gamers happy. I'd think the hardcore of both sides would be completely turned off if any middle ground is met.

Just let an archer hold the shot until they want to release then click again to fire and bam, head shot lands?

I think I enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot's Archery system  a bit. The pre-makeover one, not the new spells instead of abilities one. The shot had to be prepped(draw time before shot is ready), hold until ready(15 seconds and then you are too tired and have to repick your shot?), fire, Just being able to know when the first shot is going to hit and where the target will be is fantastic. Short duration queues with movement interrupting the bow shots.

add in magic combination with bows and bam, you have a nice spell/skill combination move. +flame = fire arrow. +time magic and you have arrow that travels faster (reducing the need to predict where players will end up). and lots more other combination.

Great stuff so far guys, going to try and comment on everything

Originally posted by Hype

One wa to make the slider necessary is to have different armor degrees. Many mobs need a charged attack, but not fully charged, to maximize dps, while other mobs can be more quickly picked off by rapid fire.

Agreed.  I think realistically you could do a trio of options: Speed-Accuracy-Power.  Instead of a straight Speed-Accuracy slider you have more of a triangle, something like |>, with Accuracy at the top, Speed at the bottom, and Power on the right side there.  So you can do a full pull for a power shot either quickly and lose accuracy, or take your time.  A less powerful shot could be done more quickly and more accurately.  It all depends on the type of target you're going for. Maybe it would be best represented like |=, since you should be able to have a shot with full power+full accuracy, or full power+full speed.  Whatever, that's not entirely important at the moment.

Originally posted by santimiar

 

Could also have it so that character skill + strength + equipment (IE Bows) help determines the range the arrows will go. The bow will have a base range. If your character skill is beginner, your range will be debuffed until skills gets higher. If you are a master, you get a buff on range.

Strength will also help as it will determine how much you can draw on the bow (power = range) and also how long you can hold it in a drawn state while you aim.

I also like this.  Or instead of having strength affect the bow beyond its normal stats, a stronger character can simply use a bow with a higher draw strength.  I also like the idea of limiting the time you can hold the bow in a draw state when aiming.  That offers higher strength characters a choice.  They can either go for the biggest, baddest bow, or they can pick a slightly lighter one which allows them to hold and aim longer.

Originally posted by mmoguy43

 

Here are some things I think makes ranged combat better from the FPS side

-Hit location affects damage

-Ranged weapon ballistics

-Things with less health to kill

-Things that move around unpredictably

I don't know. I don't know what is technically possible. Also not sure how you keep both types of gamers happy. I'd think the hardcore of both sides would be completely turned off if any middle ground is met.

I like all four of those points you bring up, except for maybe the first one.  I think that RPG combat can benefit from implementing those things in some way.  The only issue with the first is that it definitely gives a hugeadvantage to twitch players.  They'll be the ones popping off the headshots.  I personally think that for RPG combat the best way to simulate that sort of thing is through weapon powers.  Give archers a skill called "Head Shot" that gives a big bonus to damage, but it greatly increases the aim time and has a pretty big miss chance depending on skill.  Those "called shots" would be represented by taking the extra time to get a solid aim.

The others are great though.  I especially thing that combat in MMORPGs could be served by reducing the HP a little bit.  You don't see five minute back and forths with NPCs in single-player RPGs these days.  It's a few seconds of some down and dirty combat, and then someone dies.  Maybe you slow it down a little bit from that, but definitely speed things up a lot from the stand around and whiddle away at each other's 10k hitpoints. I think that the majority of combat should be avoiding damage, not just soaking it up.  The fighter bearing down on you blocks an arrow or two with his shield, but if you get a good shot in, he's in trouble.

I think the main thing to remember concerning your last point is the main genre this is for.  This is about making RPG combat a bit more interesting.  You're never going to appeal to the hardcore FPS player.  What you're trying to do instead is engage the RPG players a bit more, and maybe attract some of the less hardcore FPS players.  As long as you keep the RPG player as the priority I think you're on the right track.

 

Just let an archer hold the shot until they want to release then click again to fire and bam, head shot lands?

 

I think I enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot's Archery system  a bit. The pre-makeover one, not the new spells instead of abilities one. The shot had to be prepped(draw time before shot is ready), hold until ready(15 seconds and then you are too tired and have to repick your shot?), fire, Just being able to know when the first shot is going to hit and where the target will be is fantastic. Short duration queues with movement interrupting the bow shots.

Here are some things I think makes ranged combat better from the FPS side

-Hit location affects damage

-Ranged weapon ballistics

-Things with less health to kill

-Things that move around unpredictably

 

Dumb down the FPS part and make it easier for less dextrious RPG gamers?

Add in what I listed to an already heavy RPG to suit the FPS gamers?

Or have a mix of both FPS and RPG but add in aim assisting (at a cost of lower damage/accuracy)? The hardcore FPS junkies would likely still reign suprieme head-to-head though.

 

I don't know. I don't know what is technically possible. Also not sure how you keep both types of gamers happy. I'd think the hardcore of both sides would be completely turned off if any middle ground is met.

Originally posted by Caldenfor

 

 

Just let an archer hold the shot until they want to release then click again to fire and bam, head shot lands?

 

I think I enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot's Archery system  a bit. The pre-makeover one, not the new spells instead of abilities one. The shot had to be prepped(draw time before shot is ready), hold until ready(15 seconds and then you are too tired and have to repick your shot?), fire, Just being able to know when the first shot is going to hit and where the target will be is fantastic. Short duration queues with movement interrupting the bow shots.

 

I like the idea of limiting the amount of time that you can hold a shot.  I don't think it's a good idea to let someone prep a power shot and just run around until he sees someone and then "BAM". As we talked about above, I think it's a good idea to bring the draw strength of a bow into the equation.  Someone can even try a bow that is a bit above their strength, but they'll be limited to a less than full draw (less damage), and they can't hold it very long (less accuracy).

 Another way to limit this is to require shots to actually have a target to click on/hold to prep the shot.  

I do think that in general movement should at the very least decrease your accuracy a bit, if not interrupt the shot completely.  I'd say leave this to the realm of skill.  A very skilled archer and move without having it affect his shot that much.  Maybe even have a skill like "On the Run" or something, similar to a Mounted Archery-type skill.

Could also have it so that character skill + strength + equipment (IE Bows) help determines the range the arrows will go. The bow will have a base range. If your character skill is beginner, your range will be debuffed until skills gets higher. If you are a master, you get a buff on range.

Strength will also help as it will determine how much you can draw on the bow (power = range) and also how long you can hold it in a drawn state while you aim.

Originally posted by DarkVagabond

I think whats really important, regardless of how you fire, is that it looks like you are putting some strength into that shot, and that it looks like the monster doesn't like what hit him.

Definitely agree here.  One of the things MMORPG combat seems to be missing is that visceral feel to combat.  A strong bowshot knocks you right off your horse.  A hammer smashing against your shield stuns you for a second or knocks you off balance.  The stand in place and exchange blows with nothing happening until one of us dies type of combat is just not that engaging.  I want every attack to have an effect on the battle besides the fact that it makes your HP goes down.  If someone gets a good opening blow on you and knocks you off your feet, that should be a big deal.  You're pretty much done for even though he probably didn't even do much "damage" to you, unless you can someone get him to the ground, or evade his attacks long enough to get back up.

Could also have it so that character skill + strength + equipment (IE Bows) help determines the range the arrows will go. The bow will have a base range. If your character skill is beginner, your range will be debuffed until skills gets higher. If you are a master, you get a buff on range.

Strength will also help as it will determine how much you can draw on the bow (power = range) and also how long you can hold it in a drawn state while you aim.Could also have it so that character skill + strength + equipment (IE Bows) help determines the range the arrows will go. The bow will have a base range. If your character skill is beginner, your range will be debuffed until skills gets higher. If you are a master, you get a buff on range.

Strength will also help as it will determine how much you can draw on the bow (power = range) and also how long you can hold it in a drawn state while you ai

 

 

 

Really great stuff here guys.  I'm really liking the thoughts.  I want to take a second an expand a bit on an idea I mentioned above with the "called shots".

So let's say you're attacking someone running towards you.  You click and hold, which starts your draw/aim process.  Depending on your skill and how you've set your Accuracy/Speed priority, this takes a while.  Once you've got a normal "lock", you select a "Called Shot", either to the head or hand or leg or whatever.  Depending on the shot, this adds an additional amount of time as you zero-in on the specific body part.  Even then, depending on the shot you're going for and your skill, these Called Shots still have an accuracy cap.  

For example, Shot to the Head has at max only a 70% hit chance.  To make it so it's not a total waste, most of the miss chance will just be converted into a regular hit.  So let's say you have, at full accuracy, a 70% chance to make the shot to the head, a 25% chance it is just a regular hit, and a 5% chance to miss completely.  

The miss chance goes up if you don't wait for a full "lock".  So if he's getting too close and you don't have enough time, you can release the shot early.  But then again, maybe range affects accuracy and so you can afford to release earlier on targets who are running towards you.  Just some thoughts.

Oh, I wasn't asking for bows to be able to be fired on the run. At the end I commented that movement would interrupt aka cancel the shot attempt.

There could be this to consider; Do you allow nocking of the arrow prior to drawing the bow in the game? Nocking an arrow alone takes time, drawing the bow takes time, firing it and the distance to the target takes time. I think being an MMORPG we can leave nocking out of the equation and just include that in the draw time, though it would look cool to run around with an arrow nocked causing you to run just a little bit slower, but more readily able to fire your bow.

In Dark Age of Camelot you could prepare a shot without actually having a target acquired. I think this is key to playing an archer. Then have that draw be limited to a certain duration before you get fatigued and have to draw a shot all over again. Thus you could have several archers draw their shots, communicate a target, and let loose their arrows.

I think one of the biggest issues with MMORPGs today is the ceiling provided to players being set too high. This is very critical in PVP games. I believe that there is a good portion of players in games such as Rift, aged DAoC, WoW, that prefer lower level combat to end game PVP combat as it provides a more balanced and enjoyable PVP experience. Thus, I suggest that the overall power curve of MMORPGs that provide PVP should be lessened to increase the balance capabilities of the game. In essence it would be like taking levels 20-35 of your typical MMORPG and stretching it out to be equal to levels 1-50 in the new game. You can still have some fun abilities to use, but the overall power of a maxed out character will be lower which will hopefully provide a more enjoyable experience in PVP.

Originally posted by Caldenfor

Oh, I wasn't asking for bows to be able to be fired on the run. At the end I commented that movement would interrupt aka cancel the shot attempt.

Yeah I got that.  I still think it might make sense to allow skilled archers or people who choose to specialize that way to shoot on the move.  But I think that in general it should be a more stationary thing.  

 

There could be this to consider; Do you allow nocking of the arrow prior to drawing the bow in the game? Nocking an arrow alone takes time, drawing the bow takes time, firing it and the distance to the target takes time. I think being an MMORPG we can leave nocking out of the equation and just include that in the draw time, though it would look cool to run around with an arrow nocked causing you to run just a little bit slower, but more readily able to fire your bow.

Never really considered that.  Might be interesting.  But I think that it would be too annoying if it was a large difference, and then if it's not a real big difference then it's probably not worth the effort to have it.

 

In Dark Age of Camelot you could prepare a shot without actually having a target acquired. I think this is key to playing an archer. Then have that draw be limited to a certain duration before you get fatigued and have to draw a shot all over again. Thus you could have several archers draw their shots, communicate a target, and let loose their arrows.

That would work.  As long as the draw is seperate from the aim.  You could draw early for your shot's strength, and then find a target after that, but the targeting time is also including in the draw duration, so that's another tradeoff.  You could draw early, but you would have less time to aim before you were fatigued.  I don't like the idea of letting you charge up a full shot and then shoot it off at a target as soon as you see him.

 

I think one of the biggest issues with MMORPGs today is the ceiling provided to players being set too high. This is very critical in PVP games. I believe that there is a good portion of players in games such as Rift, aged DAoC, WoW, that prefer lower level combat to end game PVP combat as it provides a more balanced and enjoyable PVP experience. Thus, I suggest that the overall power curve of MMORPGs that provide PVP should be lessened to increase the balance capabilities of the game. In essence it would be like taking levels 20-35 of your typical MMORPG and stretching it out to be equal to levels 1-50 in the new game. You can still have some fun abilities to use, but the overall power of a maxed out character will be lower which will hopefully provide a more enjoyable experience in PVP.

Definitely agree about power curve.  Especially in a PvP game.  There definitely should be some sort of power progress, but at a much more gradual rate and make the difference smaller.  An archer with 100 skill is better than one with 10, but not 10998301x better.  

This also allows people with a larger range of experience to play together.  In most themepark MMOs you can't really play with your friends unless you're within a couple levels.  Having a smaller power curve allows more people to play together, and it evens the playing field a bit.  It makes it more realistic.  In WoW a level 80 won't lose to a level 10, no matter how many gang up on him.  With less of a curve the higher skilled character definitely has an advantage, but a few players will still be able to down him.

Focus more on adding to your repitoire than growing in power, though there should still be some growth.

And people say my ideas suck! =0

I believe that it isn't improper to allow an archer to nock a shot, wait a couple of seconds, find a target, then shoot as this is not unrealistic in the real world, or fantasy. It would be one of the advantages an archer has over a magic wielder, especially if some magical users have instant cast abilities. In order to do this though the archer must stand in place and that is a fair trade off in my opinion.

My RTS cross over to the MMORPG world is pretty slick too.

Originally posted by Caldenfor

And people say my ideas suck! =0

 

I believe that it isn't improper to allow an archer to nock a shot, wait a couple of seconds, find a target, then shoot as this is not unrealistic in the real world, or fantasy. It would be one of the advantages an archer has over a magic wielder, especially if some magical users have instant cast abilities. In order to do this though the archer must stand in place and that is a fair trade off in my opinion.

 

My RTS cross over to the MMORPG world is pretty slick too.

I think that it's something that would have to be figured out as a balance issue.  It depends on how accurate they are, how much damage they do, etc.

Maybe subsequent shots don't need a "lock" time like the first one does, since you've already got your target.

Some of the people who love ranged stuff might not like some of this but:

Archery ARCHES...  As such it really isnt/wasnt ever something you would use indoors unless you were say above the people invading your fortress through murder holes and the such.  In an enclosed room at shortish range it really doesnt work all that well to be shooting into a melee. 

At any rate I see ranged more as a method of pulling monsters and getting a few early shots in before it closes and then you change to melee or as a defense position on the wall of a castle shooting at the invading troops or through an archery slit at people invading your fortress.

It is also good for mowing down retreating opponents.

It is very hard to try to shoot a bow at someone who has a sword swinging in your face.

----

The fact that almost no games have friendly fire is the only reason why archery works at all...  I mean how in the world would someone ever be able to shoot at a boss with 30 melee people all constantly moving around and attacking it without hitting people on your own side fairly often?

Originally posted by centkin

Some of the people who love ranged stuff might not like some of this but:

Archery ARCHES...  As such it really isnt/wasnt ever something you would use indoors unless you were say above the people invading your fortress through murder holes and the such.  In an enclosed room at shortish range it really doesnt work all that well to be shooting into a melee. 

Archery certainly arches when you're going for maximum distance. 45 degrees.  But anyone who has shot a bow or done target shooting knows is possible to give a fairly straight shot.

At any rate I see ranged more as a method of pulling monsters and getting a few early shots in before it closes and then you change to melee or as a defense position on the wall of a castle shooting at the invading troops or through an archery slit at people invading your fortress.

It is also good for mowing down retreating opponents.

It is very hard to try to shoot a bow at someone who has a sword swinging in your face.

Agreed.  I don't think you should be able to be using a bow at melee range, unless you're beating people with it.

 

For casters:  I think it would be cool to have a power up bar.  You could rapid fire spells (with some kind of minimum cast time before the power up starts.)  The more full the power bar, the stronger the spell, the greater the area of effect.

Put caster interuption BACK IN GAMES.  I think it's ridiculous that as a caster I can stand still while something is beating on me and only take slightly longer to cast a spell.

Archers= DAOC's archery system, though perhaps with revamped skills to use....but the archery mechanic rocked.  I haven't played a ranged character with a bow/gun that I've liked in any game since DAOC...they all seem cheesy and fake.  Auto firing a bow...hitting a key for a global cooldown, meh

How about selecting which skill to use, then drawing your bow, holding for strength/range/are of effect meter to fill to desired strength, hit again to release. Maybe have a couple skills that are limited strength but run-and-gun type skills with less accuracy/power.

(maybe skills like volley could stay with the modern style...since you generally click the button, select the ground target and stand still for the duration of the AE over time damage.)

PS...add utility type spells for casters...instead of Mezz/root/stun, maybe they could drop a wall of fire, forcing players/mobs to run around it......icy patch covering a fairly large area causing slowed movement speed and a chance to fall....muddy ground to hinder movement.  Seems to make more sense to me than the current crowd control options.

In a mod I made before, I made ranged characters have a charge up target lock time before being able to fire/cast spells for most of the aimed spells depending on the range and this charge up time works like mana. Switching targets empty your aim.   Other characters movements and skills reduce aim. 

Assumption is - Max aim = 100

Aim continues increasing or decreasing as you are casting the spell.  So if someone were to move away from your max range, the aim will slowly deteriorate.

Situation one -

The enemy is at optimal range of crossbow so the charge up is slightly better.  If you were to use an accurate shot for more damage.  You need 70 aim to be able to shoot at the leg at 100% and each shot at the leg reduces aim by 20.

Situation two -

You target the enemy at your max range so the aim charges up slower.  You need 100 aim to hit at 100% damage and each spell you cast removes a set amount of aim depending on the spell.  So if you cast a spell at 50 aim, you do 40-60% of the damage.

Situation three -

An enemy is very near to you and is below the minimum range so your aim will increase extremely fast but dodges and things that the player youre targetting is doing that can cause you to lose aim will also make you lose aim in high amounts. Shooting below your required aim will cause you to miss more.  So shooting at the leg with 60 aim will hit 50% of the time or so..

Situation four -

Being attacked by someone while youre trying to aim will put a cap on the max aim you can get and stop/reduce aim as they attack. This works even if youre targetting someone else..  So a mage will always hit (but gets weaker and weaker as the aim is reduced) and archers will miss more.

Im thinking I should probably just add the formulas for them? lol

Edit :

I didnt add a power bar for ranged because there is no point in it really for ranged weapons unless its megaman style where you charge up your blaster o.o  .  For spells yes probably you could add a cast time for it but then again I only added instacasts for the mod...

Archers

This is pulled from a portion of my design document. My whole philosophy of combat mechanics is give the player freedom without restricting them via class builds but give them feedom to the combat mechanics that would compliment the corresponding class. That would directly allow strategy and adaptibility within combat. Giving the player a sense of immersion is another factor that I try to bring into for gameplay elements. This is a simple version of my idea of how to make archery fun without using an FPS style.

The Archer would select a body part. Torso, Arms, Legs or Head. Each body part has an accuracy percentage to hit that part. Each body part will give off an effect. Torso will be the default body part because it's the easiest to hit. The legs will slow the movement speed of the target by a percentage, the arms will slow spell casting and/or increase weapon delay by a percenage and a head shot would have a 100% chance to criticle.

Arc Meter: a meter that you can manipulate via keyboard or mouse input while preparing to fire your bow that determines the flight trajectory or your weapons projectile. Essentially, this determines the distance of projectile you are shooting as well as if the arrow will be a straight shot or at an arc. A hit or miss will not be determined by aiming.

I suppose the Archer will have 3 different stances, Short, Medium and Long range. Different types of bows will determine on what stance you have access to. Each stance provides a certian number of shots the Archer can use while using the Arc meter. This negates redundancy and using the Arc meter over and over. For an example, short ranged would equal 5 shots, medium would equal 10 and long would equal 15 until you have to reuse the Arc Meter again.

Bow Draw Back: After using the Arc Meter the player can hold right click and move the mouse backwards. Holding the shot longer has a greater change to hit the target as well as performing more damage.  At the moment, depending on the Archers ability will determine how many times you'd have to have a draw back.

Sequence of using the Archer system: Select ability, select body part, determine your angle using the arc meter, then hold the right mouse button for your draw back for accuracy and damage, then release to shoot your arrow.

I have a spell combat mechanic portion but I don't have time to post it now. I hope you all like it. I am sure this could be tweaked better. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Originally posted by Castillle

In a mod I made before, I made ranged characters have a charge up target lock time before being able to fire/cast spells for most of the aimed spells depending on the range and this charge up time works like mana. Switching targets empty your aim.   Other characters movements and skills reduce aim. 

<snip>

I like this system :D. It's simple yet I think it'll allow for pretty deep and interesting gameplay.

It would have to be put into a system though where you can swap weapons quite freely to melee so you're not stuck at 0 aim whenever someone manages to get close and you can't do much back. So you open up fire with your bow but if your enemy gets close you switch to sword & shield.

You'd probably need diffirent build-times with diffirent weapons as well. A crossbow would build very slowly but likely deal more damage. Throwing daggers might build very fast but deal less damage.

If you build it well I think you can grab some of that fun shooters with many inventive weapons have about deciding which weapon to use in which situation while also keeping a more tactical approach to combat opposed to the "moar bulletz!" approach shooters often take.

It also helps that your sig is smart enough to realise that resistance to the bunny is futile. It's only a matter of time before the bunny will assimilate all sigs.

Ill try working on it when I have spare time xD Maybe for the next make something unreal contest or something...I wont be free till next year though :(  Right now working on serverside stuffs for uni

Lately I have been thinking about this alot too.

How do you balance Ranged and melee and be fair and more importantly, fun.

I have been racking my brain trying to figure out a system that is player skill with limited to No random dice element and I cannot think of one that is fun.

One thing to also keep in mind, is that FPS games are noted for mad crazy action, and usually are a few shots and dead, if not one shot one kill.  

RPG's tend to last longer, I mean, you usually have a bunch of skills to use and it would be pointless to have them if the target is dead so fast.

Not to mention there are many older people who play rpg's who don't really care for the vomit inducing twitch-iness. And to a no lesser degree, handicap and such players who can sucessfully enjoy tab-targetting and hotbar play.

That said, I did enjoy the hybrid of DDO and Fallen Earth.

I like the slider and Triangle/square ideas.

I had conversations with a friend and he suggested things, based on my criteria, such as Dragon's Lair/Shenmue events style,..Guitar hero/DDR-esque patterns,...and the moving bar as found in many Golf of baseball games.

Though good mechanics in their respective games,..in an MMO, I can see them relegated to things like crafting and maybe only a sub part of combat.

It's a tough balance.and I am glad to see people talking about it.

Of course..it will be a tough sell for any new MMO to break that mold.

cheers