There is a lesson somewhere in here... mainly if you design a bot, don't monetize it. 

Finally, something worth suing over.

glad to see this and i hope more companys get on the band wagon and take control of there games.

The is like sueing a bow manufacturer for making a bow someone shot you the knee with.

Congrats Jagex. Another victory against botters, and another loss for the community as you continue to put botters in front of content.

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Originally posted by udon
The is like sueing a bow manufacturer for making a bow someone shot you the knee with.

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"The is like sueing a bow manufacturer for making a bow someone shot you the knee with."

No, it's not.  Your analogy is awful.  Manufacturing bows is perfectly legal as they are used in recreation + hunting, and an individual who mis-uses one is held accountable.  There are laws against killing, but there aren't laws against making bows.

But with Runescape, the game rules clearly state that developing and/or marketing bots IS against the rules because it takes advantage of the game, at Jagex's expense, and thus is a reasonable thing to sue people over.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by udon
The is like sueing a bow manufacturer for making a bow someone shot you the knee with.

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If they made the bow and marketed the bow specifically for shooting people in the knee, then yes.

 

I have never and will never like these kinds of indirect lawsuits.  Even if they start out with the best intentions our legal system has a way of twisting the outcomes into something less desirable.  What next Bethesada sues mod makers because they made something they don't approve of?  This was the same kind of argument that lead to dvddecrypter being made illegal in the U.S.

I'm all for banning people who us software like this to exploit the game but it should end there.

Originally posted by WDavis

"The is like sueing a bow manufacturer for making a bow someone shot you the knee with."

No, it's not.  Your analogy is awful.  Manufacturing bows is perfectly legal as they are used in recreation + hunting, and an individual who mis-uses one is held accountable.  There are laws against killing, but there aren't laws against making bows.

But with Runescape, the game rules clearly state that developing and/or marketing bots IS against the rules because it takes advantage of the game, at Jagex's expense, and thus is a reasonable thing to sue people over.

That EULA is between the developer of the MMO (Jagex) and the player.  A 3rd party software developer should not be able to be dragged into that.  And your assuming the software is for the sole purpose of exploiting the game of Runescape.  Do you mean to say that software has no other value than as a botting tool?

DVD Decrypter could be used to make pirated copies of DVD's but it could also be used to make fair use backups of ones people owned.  It was wrong of the courts to ignore it's legal use and instead only focus on it's illegal ones.

The EULA is between the dev and the player, yes, but if a third party software developer develops and markets a product at the very expense of another organisation, that organisation has the absolute legal rights to say "right, this person is making a software that damages my game, and I don't like it."

Can you honestly find anything unreasonable about that?

And it doesn't matter if the software has any other value than as a botting tool; the fact of the matter is this botting software IS designed specifically in order TO counteract the countermeasures Jagex instill to try and prevent botting.  

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Originally posted by udon

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by udon
The is like sueing a bow manufacturer for making a bow someone shot you the knee with.

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If they made the bow and marketed the bow specifically for shooting people in the knee, then yes.

 

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I have never and will never like these kinds of indirect lawsuits.  Even if they start out with the best intentions our legal system has a way of twisting the outcomes into something less desirable.  What next Bethesada sues mod makers because they made something they don't approve of?  This was the same kind of argument that lead to dvddecrypter being made illegal in the U.S.
I'm all for banning people who us software like this to exploit the game but it should end there.

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The software is made specifically for breaking the agreement between a user and the developer. It's also made specifically for Runescape. It has to be or it wouldn't work. When people play Runescape, they agree to not use bots. iBot (or whatever it is called) is made specifically so people can break that agreement. Had they made the software for a different game where botting was not against the terms of service, they would be free and clear. They didn't create a generic piece of software, they created a piece of software that was made specifically to facilitate breaking the law.

** edit **
Unlike guns, bows and a lot of different drugs, the iBot software has no legitimate use.

@Udon /sigh, you just don't get it, do you?  If the i-Bot software was designed for general auto-clicking then I'd totally understand your argument.  That' would be like a guy getting stabbed by a dude with a Stanley screwdriver then suing stanley - and yes, that would be a stupid reason to sue a company over.

But this is a different situation - software like i-Bot purposefully includes algorithms and features designed to specifically counteract anti-botting coutermeasures, and  when the devs break it, they try and make it work again.  That IS not allowed and it doesn't mean jack if they didn't accept the EULA; what they are doing is still selfish and undermines Jagex's product!

Originally posted by i_own_u

Congrats Jagex. Another victory against botters, and another loss for the community as you continue to put botters in front of content.

 

and cleaning up bots doesn't help improve the quality of the existing  content?

Originally posted by WDavis

@Udon /sigh, you just don't get it, do you?  If the i-Bot software was designed for general auto-clicking then I'd totally understand your argument.  That' would be like a guy getting stabbed by a dude with a Stanley screwdriver then suing stanley - and yes, that would be a stupid reason to sue a company over.

But this is a different situation - software like i-Bot purposefully includes algorithms and features designed to specifically counteract anti-botting coutermeasures, and  when the devs break it, they try and make it work again.  That IS not allowed and it doesn't mean jack if they didn't accept the EULA; what they are doing is still selfish and undermines Jagex's product!

 

No I do get it however I see this as a very slippery slope Jagex is standing on.  Hopefully things work out for the best and they don't decide to take their fresh won court case and use it against someone like Logitech for making a macroing keyboard.

And people said that exact same thing about DVD Decrypter btw even though it wasn't true.  I really don't know if that botting software has other applications as I have never looked into it nor have I have played Runescape past about 10 hours.  I just know these kinds of lawsuits are rarely good for the industry as a whole.

Originally posted by udon

That EULA is between the developer of the MMO (Jagex) and the player.  A 3rd party software developer should not be able to be dragged into that.  And your assuming the software is for the sole purpose of exploiting the game of Runescape.  Do you mean to say that software has no other value than as a botting tool?

DVD Decrypter could be used to make pirated copies of DVD's but it could also be used to make fair use backups of ones people owned.  It was wrong of the courts to ignore it's legal use and instead only focus on it's illegal ones.

Well, if the software developer is insinuating itself into Runescape or profiting from another's work or messing with someone's work then it's more than the EULA that's involved. And they essentially made it between them and the Owner of the game.

The issue is not whether or not the "bot" software has other uses, the issue is its relationship to (in this case) Rune Scape.

Hopefully other companis will follow.

I have left several games since areas/quest/tasks  in the game has been so crowded with bots that its no fun to play anymore. 

Personally I cant see the point in cheating, why even play a game if you must cheat ?

or is it ppl with no life that finally gets some satisfaction from a fiction world where they can be admired of their achivments due to cheats ...

sad ..

Grats to Jagex.

Now that's showing that you can minimalize botting.  Of course total and ultimate win is not possible but still.

Now all those giant companies like Acti-Blizzard, EA, Sony ,etc that have bigger resources than Jagex and they cannot more effectively fight botting?

If you does not know why somethig happens (or not happens) - it is money. 

Fighting bots cost money and well seems that many companies don't want to spend them to make player's experience better.

I feel this sets a precedent that could have negative effects to legitimate users.  I'd like to know exactly what illegalities were ruled on.  Breaking an EULA is not illegal(or is it?).  If at some point it becomes illegal by setting a precedent such as this, we could see users being fined legally for some small hidden clause in an EULA.  If it has something to do with copyright, still I'd like to know more.  I don't even play this game, but the consequences of this judgement could be far reaching depending upon what it's based.

Most likley in or around the area of reverse engineering and/or industrial espionage... But i am sure you can google it if you really like to know... the case and the case number is bound to be on the web by now.

wtg jagex

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by udon

That EULA is between the developer of the MMO (Jagex) and the player.  A 3rd party software developer should not be able to be dragged into that.  And your assuming the software is for the sole purpose of exploiting the game of Runescape.  Do you mean to say that software has no other value than as a botting tool?

DVD Decrypter could be used to make pirated copies of DVD's but it could also be used to make fair use backups of ones people owned.  It was wrong of the courts to ignore it's legal use and instead only focus on it's illegal ones.

Well, if the software developer is insinuating itself into Runescape or profiting from another's work or messing with someone's work then it's more than the EULA that's involved. And they essentially made it between them and the Owner of the game.

The issue is not whether or not the "bot" software has other uses, the issue is its relationship to (in this case) Rune Scape.

 

Well than you better hope no game developer decides FRAPS is against their EULA or they might be next.

Like I said a slippery slope.

Good for Jagex.  I hope the Snellmans suffer for this.

Good stuff, I have no pity for the people that created it. I don't care if you want to defend it as 'it could have been a general bot used badly,' bots are a plague of the internet world and seldom exist for beneficial purposes (notice I said seldom, and not never). What I want to know is why companies twice as lucrative as Jagex don't seem nearly as motivated.

That was sarcasm, we all know.

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by udon

That EULA is between the developer of the MMO (Jagex) and the player.  A 3rd party software developer should not be able to be dragged into that.  And your assuming the software is for the sole purpose of exploiting the game of Runescape.  Do you mean to say that software has no other value than as a botting tool?

DVD Decrypter could be used to make pirated copies of DVD's but it could also be used to make fair use backups of ones people owned.  It was wrong of the courts to ignore it's legal use and instead only focus on it's illegal ones.

Well, if the software developer is insinuating itself into Runescape or profiting from another's work or messing with someone's work then it's more than the EULA that's involved. And they essentially made it between them and the Owner of the game.

The issue is not whether or not the "bot" software has other uses, the issue is its relationship to (in this case) Rune Scape.

 

Well than you better hope no game developer decides FRAPS is against their EULA or they might be next.

Like I said a slippery slope.

Fraps unlike that program hasnt been intended to break the EULA about a specific game, if Fraps would be against the EULA of a specific game you could not blame the makers because they did not intend for it to be used for that purpose... it would be the users at fault.

slope aint slippery at all.

Originally posted by udon

 

Well than you better hope no game developer decides FRAPS is against their EULA or they might be next.

Like I said a slippery slope.

It really isn't.

Like Fareas indicates, Fraps doesn't break the EULA. Where an issue might arise is if some used FRAPS to make movies using in game assets and then tried to charge money for them. However, I suspect the individual would be sued.

In the case of someone creating Bot software, they are creating it to directly interface with the game so that they can manipulate and take advantage of game assets in a way the developers did not intend.

If anything, the regular use of FRAPS is a good thing as it sort of promotes the game, good or bad.

Its good for jagex to finally do something....been like years. Anyway i feel like the only reason theyre doing this is because they lost so many subscribers after bots went out, at least 60% were bots. Probably going after the bot makers cause theyre so money hungry. OR since they were put under new managment they probably decided.....wtf? we can sue em?

I like this. I have been banning bots on an RO server for years and welcome anything that puts a hold on this piece trash for cheaters.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by udon

 

Well than you better hope no game developer decides FRAPS is against their EULA or they might be next.

Like I said a slippery slope.

It really isn't.

Like Fareas indicates, Fraps doesn't break the EULA. Where an issue might arise is if some used FRAPS to make movies using in game assets and then tried to charge money for them. However, I suspect the individual would be sued.

In the case of someone creating Bot software, they are creating it to directly interface with the game so that they can manipulate and take advantage of game assets in a way the developers did not intend.

If anything, the regular use of FRAPS is a good thing as it sort of promotes the game, good or bad.

So no developer has ever or will ever put in thier EULA a clause that makes recording game scenes against the rules?  I wouldn't be so sure about that if I was you.  I mean if a company spends 100 million + rendering large amounts of in game cinimatics (the price to make a lot of movies)  how long do you think it will take until some exec or investor starts to look at that investment more like a movie that you are required to pay to get access to rather than just let you download the entire sequence from you tube?  I'm afraid that this ruling (amount others) sets a precedent for them to go after the tool developer which is much easier to track down and sue than trying to find users who break the EULA.

You are assuming the difference between the Bot software and something like Fraps is clear cut enough that even Lawyers, Judges and Jury's could see the difference.  While you and I might see a difference I'm not convinced the legal system will.

I'm not saying anything bad will come of this or that this specific outcome isn't good for Runescapes players.  I'm saying this kind of ruling "could" be misused in the future against what you and I would consider legit software tools by a overzelous developer.  That's what I don't like about it.

Originally posted by SBFord

As a condition of this case the Snellmans have been ordered to give up all websites, domains, source code and customer details to Jagex along with all the details of all those individuals who have developed scripts for iBOT and sold or re-sold those scripts.

 

Gerhard concluded with: “The result of this case against the Snellmans should serve as a serious deterrent for anyone who continues to be involved in developing botting software or scripts or even maintaining or supporting those involved.”

Isn't this just the WoW Glider decision all over again?

What worries me is that such victories will need to be won on a user-by-user (or company by company) basis.  That could take a damned good long time.