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Originally posted by FlamingIce
You guys really, REALLY need to re-review Everquest 2.

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I have to ask, how , as a new player,how were you able to compete or even survive in a 0.0 area?

As all the skills are time based (real world time) im not seeing how you were able to compete or achieve the skills necessary to do so.

Were you given an account? or are you a long time player?

If you are a long time player, i would have to call "sham" on your review... Reviews should only be done by someone with out a vested interest in the game its self. in this case.. the interest in this case is that you have been playing for quite some time, and im sure that you have some loyalty built up for the game...so the review is slanted.

Also, im not sure how you can rate PvP so high in a game that you basically Pay to become more powerful. The real world time based skill system means you abilities and power increase the longer you have an account, as opposed to the achievement model of most other games ( you do something you get better, skill or level based games, how ever long it takes you).

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Originally posted by FlamingIce
You guys really, REALLY need to re-review Everquest 2.

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Originally posted by Lepidus

Every year, we're trying to re-review every major MMORPG. These things change and one review for all simply wont do. Today, we tackle what is sure to be the most controversial of the reviews: EVE Online. For years, it has led our rating meter and swept last year's Reader's Choice Awards. Here is our latest review.

It is time once again for an intrepid explorer to jump inside a goo-filled sphere and take a fresh look at the world of EVE Online. It’s a step not taken lightly though, as the life of a pod pilot is filled with danger, challenge and hopefully a wallet full of ISK. There are no promises of wealth and power, but with determination and skill you can make your mark on the galaxy, wether or not that mark is a kill stamp on a pirate’s hull or not is up to you. Since the last review quite a bit has been added to the EVE universe in the form of three major content expansions called Exodus, Cold War and Red Moon Rising. Exodus added tons of new ships, modules and skills, but also added the capability for groups of Corporations to form Alliances to control their territory and defend it from others with Starbases. These allowed for entirely new level of galactic conquest and many great player empires had risen and fallen in the two years since.

You can read our full review here.

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Originally posted by daemonbarber A note about the sun - there is an option in the graphics menu to stop it from shining through everything.  It's there for the lower end machines - and I thought it defaulted to on, but if it bothers you just swap it.  The sun will be blocked by any solid object in space, and only partially dimmed in appropriate cases.

It might also be the fact they had an unsupported video card :)

most of the review is great, but i have to agree, when you begin, it is hard to pvp effectively agains older player because skills are real time based.

About petition (cortumer) support, you stated it to be 9 of 10, well i have to disagree to that. I filed a petition cause i had lost my main mission ship (over 1 bil isk lost) when the game crashed. that was on the 18th of june and they finaly replied to me 2 days ago (8/12/2006), that is 8 weeks delay. I dont seem to be the only one to have had that problem.

Good support is within a few hours, acceptable 24 hours. 8 weeks is very bad at the best, i would rate that part of your review to be about 1 or 2. 

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Originally posted by Archebald
most of the review is great, but i have to agree, when you begin, it is hard to pvp effectively agains older player because skills are real time based.

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When you first begin, yes. But it's a misconception that you can never match someone who's played longer than you. This isn't a level-based game. Just because someone has 10 million more skillpoints than you, it doesn't mean they're invincible to your attacks. A person's abilities is dictated by what ship and modules they're currently using. Skills only add small percentages and allow you to use more modules but they are not uber-powerful style buffs.

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

I have to ask, how , as a new player,how were you able to compete or even survive in a 0.0 area?

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Its not that hard to survive in 0.0. In fact, its usually easier to survive out there than it is to hang onto your clone in many 0.4 systems. You just need to hold no illusions about the fact that sooner or later you will die. And it will probably hurt.

And then you need to dust yourself off and go and do it again.

For an example of surviving in lowsec space (and enjoying yourself whilst doing it) see http://00experiment.blogspot.com - for some of the most entertaining game fiction to ever come from the game.

Look at the banner advertisement, and you'll see exactly why this entire review process needs to be handled seriously.  EVE spends no time listing its ratings and reviews on its banner.  Such reviews and endorsements of quality have become more and more important to attracting interested gamers and revenue.  Therefore, it is important that these be done seriously, and accurately, or the entire review process is a sham, and by extention, the MMORPG.com staff is a sham.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh Dana, but we need someone that speaks for us, the gamers and the fans.  We depend on the fan community to give us the truth, not spin.  So when a game becomes the highest rated game, we need some confidence that your ratings are taken seriously, since there is a lot of money riding on it.

I have reason to suspect that this "re-review" process does more harm than good, and my reasons come from the above changes in the individual category ratings.  There seems to be a lack of provenance with respect to the previous review, and I think its a bit confusing to understand who is telling us the truth.  Was Reed Hubbard's assessment too low?  If so, then MMORPG.com was untruthful to the gaming public until today.  Is Dan Fortier's assessment better than Mr. Hubbard's?  Its better for EVE and CCP, but is it better for us, the fans and the gaming public?

I am sorry if my comments here are unwanted, but I want to know whose side MMORPG.com is on?  Are they in bed with the providers, or are they on the side of the fans and the players?  This entire "re-review" thing for EVE leaves me in doubt, because unlike SWG, EVE is essentially the same game as it was in 2004.  So if it is the same game, there is no reason to alter the official review and score from Mr. Hubbard.  Unless of course, it got you in trouble with your sponsors that EVE wasn't ranked higher than Ryzom and Guild Wars.  In which case, there is no reason to think these reviews are based in any truth whatsoever.

So my questions to the accuracy of this "re-review" for EVE, and by extention, the entire MMORPG.com review process, based on the data in the chart, are as follows:

1)  Roleplaying has picked up from 6 in 2004, to 7 in 2006.  What is the difference between EVE as a roleplaying game in 2004, as opposed to today in 2006, other than everyone playing Caldari, and a game community that will shoot you unless you break your immersion and consent to TS/Vent?

2)  Fun has picked up from 7 in 2004, to 8 in 2006.  What has made this game more fun in 2006, than it was in 2004?

3)  Performance/Lag has jumped from 7 in 2004, to a perfect score (10/10) today.  I seriously wonder how Mr. Fortier could have come to this conclusion, seeing as how the game is nororious for lagging/freezing/locking (especially in the large fleet battles), and has quirky bugs of unknown origin (ships disappearing, black screens upon undocking).  It is a constant theme that even the casual observer will notice as widespread, as evidenced in the EVE forums.  Ironically, how many non-captured portraits have you seen there with the (!) designation?  Some of them have been waiting for months to get their picture properly displayed.  Can the reviewer honestly say that the game runs better than, say, City of Heroes?  Or Everquest II?  Perfection is just that...perfect.  Not "better than average," or "acceptable given the size of CCP."

4)  Customer Service is unchanged from a 9/10 (above average).  Do you know that every petition for the last few months received the same response, with the following statement:

Unfortunately, we here at EVE Customer Support are at this point totally overrun with petitions. We cannot keep up, and must therefore unfortunately send everyone this response, where we ask if you are still having problems or if your case is solved at this point.  If your problem is still valid, then we apologise and ask you to reply to this and we'll try and help you as quickly as we are able.  If not, then please ignore this completely, and the petition will close on its own.  Furthermore, even if your issue is still valid, we would like to ask you if you feel it is important enough to pursue, or if it is minor enough to ignore in order for us to be able to give better (and quicker) service to those with real game-stopping issues.  We really do apologise for this request, but at this point we have no other option.  We hope that you are continuing having fun playing EVE.

To me, its honest enough, but this is no indication of good CS.  Not only that, but there is no rulebook.  Even simple questions need to be researched and asked on the forums (and if you think the flaming and disrespect is bad here, you should see the trolls on the EVE forum).  Customer support isn't bad, but I question the score of 9 out of 10, especially given the recent breakdown in CS.

I really want to believe that this cite can be trusted to give us accurate information, and quality reviews.  However, reviews have become serious to the companies that want our money, and the fans who want to spend their entertainment dollars wisely.  Given all the horror stories of Mourning, D&L, and SWG, we consumers cannot trust the providers, and depend on you all for the truth.

well, even though i know how impressive it is to have 26k players at the same time on the same server, i wouldnt rate perf/lag with a 10.

there are many times when you feel lag, even though you are not on the most populated servers. i would give it a 8 at most.

on the other hand, the open skill system, FFA pvp everywhere, player runned economics and politics, the only one universal server and the option to conquer complete regions and claim sovereignity for your alliance makes this game the best to roleplay IMHO, so i would give it a 10 on that section.

for music, well it is beautiful. i love it. i would give it a 10. but it f*cks performance a lot, so its a 2 or 3. on average, i would give music/sound a 6 or 7.

about value... well, there is a 14 days free trial, creating a regular account costs 20 euros only (instead of 50 like most games) and best of all, every expansion comes free. and yes, they are expansions, not patches like someone said. so i would rate value a 9 at least. hey, and the forums come for free with the account

anyhow, i have always found a little bit lacking your categories. i would like to have at least another one that took into account gameplay, depth and player ingame possibilities.

for example, i would give EVE a 6 at most on fun, but a 10 on gameplay options and general depth. on the ohter hand i would give City of Heroes a 9 on fun, but a 3 on gameplay.

so how do you guys rate the complexity and possibilities of games? is it included on one of the already existing categories you rate?

ps: as someone already said, there is an option to make ships and planets cover the sun.

ps2: Beatnik, dont be such an ass*ole, everybody knows that the game has changed A LOT since 2004.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

I really want to believe that this cite can be trusted to give us accurate information, and quality reviews.  However, reviews have become serious to the companies that want our money, and the fans who want to spend their entertainment dollars wisely.  Given all the horror stories of Mourning, D&L, and SWG, we consumers cannot trust the providers, and depend on you all for the truth.

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My last paragraph, because it got cut off.

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

As all the skills are time based (real world time) im not seeing how you were able to compete or achieve the skills necessary to do so.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

EVE is essentially the same game as it was in 2004.

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Originally posted by (MG)Toast

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

EVE is essentially the same game as it was in 2004.

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Patently untrue, unless you're talking in the most very basic sense of the phrase, in which case it doesn't support your assertion. Hell, it's not even the same game in review-score terms as it was when I started in early 2005.

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The interface is the same, the gameplay is the same, and the backstory is the same.  It has had things added to it, but it wasn't a wholesale redefinition of the entire gameplay like SWG was.

Basically, its still the same EVE that anybody who played EVE in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006 would understand and be able to play.  Its not like SWG which redefined the entire way you play the game, and turning your rulebook into a coaster.

Then what is the reason any of us should believe MMORPG.com when MMORPG.com rates a game higher than another one?  I'm sorry for harping on these points, but I am bringing this up because I want this cite to be trustworthy, and true to its mission of being a place for the fans to get good information, from people they trust.  Things like this erode the trust Dana, which is why journalists in print don't do it.

If anything, web journalists like you and MMORPG.com need to be extra careful when dealing with things like reviews, and news.  Unlike print media, you can change things on a whim, and because you can change things on a whim, you have to make sure that you do not change something unless absolutely warranted, and not frivolously.  Otherwise, people can't trust MMORPG.com to mean what they say, and say what they mean.  Changing things too often, for strange reasons like "Dan thought it would be cool," creates accusations of bias, and conspiracy.  Why should we trust MMORPG.com, when it changes its official stance for silly reasons?

I, like you, and everyone else here cannot play all the games to give an accurate assessment of each one.  That is why I, like you, depend on your writers to accurately ascertain each title.  I do not buy this argument that the reviews from a media site like yours are "subjective things," outside of the scope of good journalism.  They are attempting to be objective things, or at least more objective than reviews from those who do not follow good journalistic and media practice.

While MMORPG.com may be under the assumption that the reviews are not to be compared against eachother, there can only be one official MMORPG.com ranking, and the game companies and the fans do compare them against eachother.  The game developers boast about rankings and ratings in their advertisements to consumers and they use them to attract investors.  If you do not believe me, look at the EVE banner add, and see how they are used.

So when there is a change in the ratings, whether positive or negative, its going to have effects whether MMORPG.com intends them or not.  Banner adverisements will be altered.  Investors will be wooed or shunned.  Consumers will make choices.

There are two reasons something should be "re-reviewed."  The first reason is if MMORPG.com made a mistake in the first review, and wants to give the correct review.  So unless MMORPG.com has been lying to us about EVE for two years, this new official review does not fall into this category.  The second reason is if the old review and ranking corresponds to a game that de facto does not exist, like the case of SWG.  EVE is essentially the same concept and game today as it was in the last review, so a new review is not warranted.

You say also that the new reviewer is not required to read the old review, and write the review in light of the old review.  This is a mistake for a number of reasons, most importantly in terms of this fansite's objectivity, and the integrity of the rating.  If the ratings change whenever someone on your staff feels like they should change, then how can we ever trust that the ratings are as they say they are?  Yesterday EVE was an 8.3.  Today its an 8.4.  Yesterday Ryzom was an 8.3.  Today it is an 8.2.  What will these games be tomorrow, or the next day, and how to we trust that the ratings are what they say they are if they change whenever someone subits new scores to the content editor?

When official ratings change on whatever whim your staff feels like, with none of those two compelling reasons I mentioned, and show no continuity from the previous ratings, MMORPG.com cannot help to be accused of bias, and conspiracy.  All we know is that for "some reason," MMORPG.com decided that they needed to change their official scores from what they originally were.We do not get this from the hardprint press.  We do not get this from movie reviews.  We do not, because those reviews and reviewers are mindful of the fact that reviews are serious business, and they want the review to reflect the same seriousness in terms of the process.

I'm not bringing these things up because I don't care.  I'm bringing these things up because I want MMORPG.com's rating to mean something.

I disagree with any ascertion this is the same game now as it was in 2004.  Somone may site subtle differences as being insignificant but those differences on the whole make big differences.  The people who play the game are not the same people now as they were then either.  Differences in players causes feed back on the whole design element. People didn't have wow in 2004 or at least it was new. People have influence on developers and developers have influence on how games unfold and the game is certainly different than it was a few years ago.

Beatnik, I think you are grasping at straws when you try to find conspiracy in the fact there are measurable variances in review scores that are seperated by reviewer and a matter of two years.

We can look at a review of EvE online (or any mmoprg) game and consider it a taste test of the game.  Would you be so suspicious of these variant results if they were in soda taste tests almost three years apart?

You should be more suspicious of my neighbour's hat he's making. Its highly reflective and makes a crinkling noise when he turns his head.

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Originally posted by Datcyde
I came back like 3 months ago and sooooooo much has changed and the game is like 7X better im so glad ccp kept my charcter so i save like 2 months.

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That's great, but what specifically has changed that has made your particular experience better today than it was when you started?

If you could explain fully, and in detail in your experience before, and your experience now, as made possible by the game changes, it will better help us grasp exactly why its better to get into EVE now than at any other point.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by Datcyde
I came back like 3 months ago and sooooooo much has changed and the game is like 7X better im so glad ccp kept my charcter so i save like 2 months.

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That's great, but what specifically has changed that has made your particular experience better today than it was when you started?

If you could explain fully, and in detail in your experience before, and your experience now, as made possible by the game changes, it will better help us grasp exactly why its better to get into EVE now than at any other point.

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Originally posted by acmtalk

Ok, so we all know that u could not enjoy the game , and now u hate it?   I don't play eve, I tryed it, But it wasn't my style, However With soo many people saying good things about it, ccp did something right...

And u really think that the game didn't change afeter 3 years? 

I have no reason nt to belieave in the review, heck, I might actually give eve another shot...

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Didn't say I hated EVE.  I'm actually subscribed right now to EVE, and like all games it has good and bad qualities to it.

The hype though from the fans who come here has gotten to the point where someone is going to have to explain it for what it is, and be realistic.  You can't get the balanced perspective from those that are trying to enlist buddies in the buddy program so they can get entered in the reward lottery.

I'm also a big proponent of explaining, in detail, what is good about it rather than saying the same old clichè answers that don't really explain much today, and haven't really explained too much to us in three years.

The issue here though is whether or not we can trust this review any better or worse than the previous one, and why it was important at this time to change the official review.  Its not something that I have seen often, and it deserves more scrutiny.

I will never understand the appeal of this game. I don't think the reviewer is giving us anything other than his honest opinion.... but he certainly isn't giving an objective view of the game either. People seem to either love this game or hate it. There isn't a lot of middle ground. The reviewer clearly falls in to the "loves it" category. Where he admits the games shortcomings, it doesn't seem to affect his score in the relevant category. I think a second opinion review would be more helpful if the two showed different opinions of the game. It really shouldn't be hard to find someone who doesn't like this game. I wish I had seen more information from the people who don't like it before I wasted my money on it.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris

I will never understand the appeal of this game. I don't think the reviewer is giving us anything other than his honest opinion.... but he certainly isn't giving an objective view of the game either. People seem to either love this game or hate it. There isn't a lot of middle ground. The reviewer clearly falls in to the "loves it" category. Where he admits the games shortcomings, it doesn't seem to affect his score in the relevant category. I think a second opinion review would be more helpful if the two showed different opinions of the game. It really shouldn't be hard to find someone who doesn't like this game. I wish I had seen more information from the people who don't like it before I wasted my money on it.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by (MG)Toast

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

EVE is essentially the same game as it was in 2004.

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Patently untrue, unless you're talking in the most very basic sense of the phrase, in which case it doesn't support your assertion. Hell, it's not even the same game in review-score terms as it was when I started in early 2005.

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The interface is the same, the gameplay is the same, and the backstory is the same.  It has had things added to it, but it wasn't a wholesale redefinition of the entire gameplay like SWG was.

Basically, its still the same EVE that anybody who played EVE in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006 would understand and be able to play.  Its not like SWG which redefined the entire way you play the game, and turning your rulebook into a coaster.

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My opinion, if you're going to re-review something, if at all possible have the original reviewer do it.

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Originally posted by Cerrian

In the post above this, I compiled a list of all the new features that were added/modified by the three content expansion patches.  Those features in red or labled in *** are those features that had a massive impact on the gameplay.

Compared to the launch release, today's EVE is a completely different beast.  There's no way you can look at that list and say the interface, the gameplay, and the backstory is relatively the same as it was when EVE was launched.

BTW, the list was a compilation of E-ON's expansion features list.  As I recall, the author did mention in a paragraph or 2 the difference between today's EVE and the launch version.

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All of it is balancing, additions to content, and refining elements in the game.  It happens in all games, like City of Heroes, or Everquest II.  Yet not all of them get a second review, nor should they, because the fundamental concepts underpinning the game are the same, just as it is in EVE.

I don't see City of Heroes get a second review because they added in the new ATs, or changed around the costumes in Issue 7, or a second review of Lineage II because of Chronicle V (My mistake.  Lineage II was re-reviewed, and I oppose that re-review on the same grounds).  What would be the point though since CoH, and Lineage II, like EVE, were the same basic game with enhancements any subscription based game, provides?

What happened in Star Wars Galaxies was an entire reinvention of the fundamental concepts like, what it means to be a character, and how you interact with NPCs, and how you go about the game.  A second review in that case was appropriate, because it was a whole new game.

This is not the case here though, and EVE is getting special treatment, and one might say, biased treatment for doing the same periodic updates every other game on this site does.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by (MG)Toast

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

EVE is essentially the same game as it was in 2004.

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Patently untrue, unless you're talking in the most very basic sense of the phrase, in which case it doesn't support your assertion. Hell, it's not even the same game in review-score terms as it was when I started in early 2005.

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The interface is the same, the gameplay is the same, and the backstory is the same.  It has had things added to it, but it wasn't a wholesale redefinition of the entire gameplay like SWG was.

Basically, its still the same EVE that anybody who played EVE in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006 would understand and be able to play.  Its not like SWG which redefined the entire way you play the game, and turning your rulebook into a coaster.

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And then you shot your own argument down. The interface is not the same. The gameplay has changed a lot. The backstory has evolved. Are you saying you want a wholesale change of gameplay like SWG? For a rabid eve hateboi, you could atleast get your facts right. BTW anyone who played in 2003 or 2004 would be completely lost if they got into eve now. Nothings the same.

1. The interface is completely different.

2. The gameplay is completelt different especially the realationships between the various sizes and classes of ships. Combat has been changed a lot and its completely different from 2003.

3. The backstory has evolved. What exactly do you want the eve devs to do? Would you like them to change the settings to Norrath one fine day and claim they have a totally new backstory? Thats  prolly the dumbest statement in your post. The rest is just all based on ignorance.

Ps. I've played eve since 2003. I know better than you. So shutup before you shove more of your foot up your mouth.

Pps. I also played AC2, wOW, DDO, EQ2, Coh and I can see the good and bad points. You dont see me slating them for things I dont like about them.

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Originally posted by Darkentwo

And then you shot your own argument down. The interface is not the same. The gameplay has changed a lot. The backstory has evolved. Are you saying you want a wholesale change of gameplay like SWG? For a rabid eve hateboi, you could atleast get your facts right. BTW anyone who played in 2003 or 2004 would be completely lost if they got into eve now. Nothings the same.

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The interface for Matrix Online was improved to handle Customer Service better, yet it doesn't get a second review.  I also don't know of any game that hasn't progressed in terms of the storyline, but they don't get re-reviewed every time something progresses or doesn't (and by the way, the storyline in EVE is progressing very slowly in things like the Gallente elections and the Amarr succession).

Do I want wholesale change like SWG on EVE?  I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  I still play EVE, and I like EVE.  Its because I like EVE that I wish MMORPG.com would give it an honest rating in a fair way, so they don't look like they are polishing an Icelandic turd to all of those that are getting sick of the EVE hype at a time when EVE is behind schedule with Kali, and has issues with CS.

I just want some fairness, equity, and honesty in the process, and a little bit of thought into exactly why the categories have been improved or demoted based upon the precedent of the previous reviewer.  If that makes me a "rabid EVE hateboi," so be it, but I want the process to be fair, and based on a compelling reason that is applicable to all.

If EVE is a good game that can stand toe to toe with the rest here, then it shouldn't require special treatment just to satisfy the EVE players.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by Datcyde
I came back like 3 months ago and sooooooo much has changed and the game is like 7X better im so glad ccp kept my charcter so i save like 2 months.

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That's great, but what specifically has changed that has made your particular experience better today than it was when you started?

If you could explain fully, and in detail in your experience before, and your experience now, as made possible by the game changes, it will better help us grasp exactly why its better to get into EVE now than at any other point.

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 Before when i played i messed around a lil tried mining and some ratting. We had mining ops for the corp but just so we can buy ships for our leaders ect nothing special. All there was to do then is mine the few types of ores or go PvP in 0.0 and make alliances there was nothing in empire.Now you can build your own stations in empire or 0.0 and build your corporation however you see fit

Ok before when i played there were only haulers- frigates - cruisers - and battleships not counting shuttles Now you have somany more ships you can fly and each has its own purpose i realy dont feel like putting evary class and ship on here if your  intrested go look it all up at www.eve-online.com.
Having many more ships to me means alot more fun PvP styles and if you wanna go industrial you can work for a mining barge which is dedicated for mining which eve didnt have before also they have a new class for haulers i forgot what its called but they are made for traders so they can haul a huge capacity of stuf.

Jump clones - Now there are jump clones which means u can jump to the opposite side of space without having to go like 40 system jumps or more plus another benefit to this is if you have Expensive implants on your skill clone and if u wanna pvp for a time you can just change to your jump clone and not have to worry about the huge loss- for those who dont know what Implants do they give you attribute boosts which means you can learn your skills faster , like if a skill takes 2 days with a implant it could take 1 day and 5 hours.

Missions - before they didnt have this variety of missions ,they were boring and you didnt have the LOYALITY point gain which is huge  they have made this better by adding more variations but it still need more work imo. There are skill books now which boost loyality point gain with an agent. At 60 k lp i got a offer for 4 +3 attribute implants which were worth 25-30 mil each and at 120k lp i got 8 besides the lp gain u get bounty from rats, Story line missions < huge,missions rewards and bonuses which can be altered based on skill , and nice drops if u check your cans. So befor when i played missions wasnt worth it and u realy had 2 choices for making ISK - mine - hunt rats in dangerous 0.0 now u can safely make money as a fighter.

Complexes-Before you didnt have complexes but now u do ......bling...... they have diffrent difficulties for complexes and you can take your crew and try them out hoping for big faction drops from tough rats which will make you rich.

Ore- Before you had only plaq - veld - omber ect but now you have like 3 diffrent variations of each ore which makes it more intresting while mining if you like to mine plus i saw a ore called dark orche which i didnt see when i played over 2 years ago i bet there are even more types of ores.

Wardeck - This means you can declare war on a corporation if u want. You can even make your own corp and put an alt in it and wardeck anyone you want before you couldnt wardeck but now u can which means no one is safe LoL i think thats the coolest and you dont have to be in 0.0 if u wanna PvP.

   There are alot more skills then before and more stuf i  can post if i go deeper but truely im still a noob but like a stage 5 noob  with it goes up to 10 lol I bet a person that has stayed for years can explain all the changes better but i hope this helps.

Datcyde.

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Originally posted by Nicoli
As a suggestion to all in future life... Read behind the numbers.  Read what the reviewer said in the article about his justifications for why he put what he did. And for the comment about the support petition anything truly serious is handled quickly. That includes the I can't finish a mission, I'm stuck, holy exploit Batman!! types. The "I want a new ship because my screen lagged in a fleet battle as 100 Battleships and 15 Dreads opened fire on me" tend to cause the serious loss petitions to take longer and they are filed by some players left and right. CCP does look into the loss alot, and often when I have had to use the system I have gotten a reason behind the problem with it.

Now as for the New player being able to fight in PVP I just happened to be Cussing left and right at 2 new guys who blew me out of my ship (note my character is 1.5 years old). Stupid noobs using tactics... and that is it. Most players can start to provide a serious roll in combat by the end of the first week if not sooner.

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I have been playing the game for over 2 years now with multiple accounts. This game is well worth the time to learn and have fun with. If you are looking for a challenge that is not the normal grind then Eve Online is for you.

Maurauder - CEO - Orion's Forge http://orionsforge.guildportal.com

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by Darkentwo

And then you shot your own argument down. The interface is not the same. The gameplay has changed a lot. The backstory has evolved. Are you saying you want a wholesale change of gameplay like SWG? For a rabid eve hateboi, you could atleast get your facts right. BTW anyone who played in 2003 or 2004 would be completely lost if they got into eve now. Nothings the same.

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The interface for Matrix Online was improved to handle Customer Service better, yet it doesn't get a second review.  I also don't know of any game that hasn't progressed in terms of the storyline, but they don't get re-reviewed every time something progresses or doesn't (and by the way, the storyline in EVE is progressing very slowly in things like the Gallente elections and the Amarr succession).

Do I want wholesale change like SWG on EVE?  I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  I still play EVE, and I like EVE.  Its because I like EVE that I wish MMORPG.com would give it an honest rating in a fair way, so they don't look like they are polishing an Icelandic turd to all of those that are getting sick of the EVE hype at a time when EVE is behind schedule with Kali, and has issues with CS.

I just want some fairness, equity, and honesty in the process, and a little bit of thought into exactly why the categories have been improved or demoted based upon the precedent of the previous reviewer.  If that makes me a "rabid EVE hateboi," so be it, but I want the process to be fair, and based on a compelling reason that is applicable to all.

If EVE is a good game that can stand toe to toe with the rest here, then it shouldn't require special treatment just to satisfy the EVE players.

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I don't know about MxO, but then again I'm noyt the one that claimed that Eve's interface hasn't changed. The fact that MxO didnt get a second review, doesnt disprove the fact that you lied about eve's interface being the same as 2003.

The storyline progress is slow is it? Better than a lot of games where the storyline doesnt progress at all.

Yes the roleplaying value has gone up. Mainly because there are more subscribers and more roleplayers. That would ofcourse improve the rolepalying aspect of the game.

The game does not lag as much as you claim. It only lags a bit in really high density systems. Its def better than WoW or EQ2.

You claim you're not an eve hateboi and you like the game....yet you call it an icelandic turd in the very same sentence. Are you suffering from dual personalities or sumin.

Horizons got rereviewed a long time ago. Didnt see you scream and shout about it.

The MMORPG guys say they are going to rereview EQ2 as well. I hope you'll be there to show us why it doesnt need to be rereviewed. Just because you suck at eve doesnt make teh game bad. It just means you suck at eve. 

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Originally posted by Gorukha
Seems odd when an advertising campaign is followed by a re-review of a game noone  cares about, or at least a game long past it's.....I would say prime but it never reached that high. Also how a crappy game got such high scores leaves me doubting in the validity of the review.  The player ratings on mmorpg.com are suspect at best since it's easy to abuse the system.  It is just another sign that there is no place where gaming journalism isn't corrupt and in the pocket of the highest bidder.

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I think it's a fair review overall but it doesn't touch on some negative aspects of the design.

First off I played EVE Online when it was first released and it had major problems with some of it's design and  bugged features that took too long to fix from my perspective, most of which have been fixed since but not soon enough to keep me playing, and some still impact the game negatively today.   

The main problem with the game currently is the real world time based skill learning system. It doesn't reward those who spend more time in the virtual world, rewards those who pay more in terms of subscription fees, and thus will always maintain an advantage for veterans. This is undeniable even if it's a small percentage. This makes the game unfriendly to newcomers who are willing to work harder at developing their skills than a veteran player and establishes an aura of unfairness because it is not based on merit.

This also dampens immersion, because a virtual world should not have obvious ties to the real world. Skill development is supposed to be relative to what transpires in the virtual world only, otherwise the premsie of such a virtual world is destroyed. 

EVE Online is a world based on power structure, and manufacturing is one of the core aspects of the game for creating wealth and along with it, power. Many newer players may not know of the original nerf that moved high quality rare ores from secure space to unsecure space which allowed those early veterans prior to the nerf to gain a huge advantage in jump starting their manufacturing and establishing a power base. This is an imbalance which exists today because it is what made many of the powerful corporations what they are. This was a huge mistake because of improper testing and demanded a rollback which didn't transpire.

Gamers expect to have to play catch up when joining a pre existing virtual world, wether it be developing your character's skills or pursuing crafting/manufacturing for trade, but the expectation is that with added effort, one can do so thru merit, which is not the case in EVE Online.

Another negative aspect is solo play vs group/corporation play. You can solo in EVE Online, but it is certainly geared for group play so it should be noted in any review that this is not a game that will appeal to most soloers, who do have a large presence in the MMOG genre. I don't believe all MMOGs should try to be everything for everybody, which is why EVE Online is and will be a niche game, but that is fine.

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Originally posted by Jorev

I think it's a fair review overall but it doesn't touch on some negative aspects of the design.

First off I played EVE Online when it was first released and it had major problems with some of it's design and  bugged features that took too long to fix from my perspective, most of which have been fixed since but not soon enough to keep me playing, and some still impact the game negatively today.   

The main problem with the game currently is the real world time based skill learning system. It doesn't reward those who spend more time in the virtual world, rewards those who pay more in terms of subscription fees, and thus will always maintain an advantage for veterans. This is undeniable even if it's a small percentage. This makes the game unfriendly to newcomers who are willing to work harder at developing their skills than a veteran player and establishes an aura of unfairness because it is not based on merit.

This also dampens immersion, because a virtual world should not have obvious ties to the real world. Skill development is supposed to be relative to what transpires in the virtual world only, otherwise the premsie of such a virtual world is destroyed. 

EVE Online is a world based on power structure, and manufacturing is one of the core aspects of the game for creating wealth and along with it, power. Many newer players may not know of the original nerf that moved high quality rare ores from secure space to unsecure space which allowed those early veterans prior to the nerf to gain a huge advantage in jump starting their manufacturing and establishing a power base. This is an imbalance which exists today because it is what made many of the powerful corporations what they are. This was a huge mistake because of improper testing and demanded a rollback which didn't transpire.

Gamers expect to have to play catch up when joining a pre existing virtual world, wether it be developing your character's skills or pursuing crafting/manufacturing for trade, but the expectation is that with added effort, one can do so thru merit, which is not the case in EVE Online.

Another negative aspect is solo play vs group/corporation play. You can solo in EVE Online, but it is certainly geared for group play so it should be noted in any review that this is not a game that will appeal to most soloers, who do have a large presence in the MMOG genre. I don't believe all MMOGs should try to be everything for everybody, which is why EVE Online is and will be a niche game, but that is fine.

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dont be so quick to call problems. for me the skill training is perfect, the best so far i have seen. IMHO it is just fair to reward veteran players not because they have paid more, but because they have been on the game more time, and real time training is the most elegant way to do that. and at the same time it takes away the grind.

and of course, you should know that the only reason you are able to catch up veterans on any other MMORPG is because they are capped at a pointless, stupid and artificial level limit. if it werent for that crappy feature veterans would be ahead on every game.

meanwhile, EVE accepts this, and decided to not have a level limit. instead there is a limit to every skill, so that you can only train to level 5. that, and the 300 different skills make it so that veterans can not be the best at everything and any new player can be the best at any single thing within 5 or 6 months, and be just as good as a 3 year old player.

i starte 1 year ago, and i am already wining a lot of money producing ships and modules, competing with 3 year vets on the same ground. at the same time i am a very good miner, and a decent mision runner and pvper. in fact, i am as good with the dominix as anybody can be. so i dont care if a veteran has 15 million skill points more than i do. when fighting on a domi nobody can have more skills than me.

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Very good review. I really wish I liked this game, but I found it very boring. I hope another company makes a ground version or even a space/ground version soon.

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New MMORPG Game "EXPANSION: History of Galaxy"

http://www.expansion.net.ua
( Sorry - now site only in Russian...)

The  web-site  is devoted to process of creation multiuser online game
(MMORPG)  on  motives  of  product  of Andrey Livadnyy, entering in a
series to " History of the Galaxy " http://www.livadnyy.ru/angl.htm

This  project  commercial,  is  supposed that "client" of game will be
free-of-charge,  freely  loaded  of  the Internet, and here " the life
inside  " - on a paid basis (a monthly subscription) about "trial" the
period in some days - that could be understood " as it there inside ".

Game  is  constructed  by a principle of "free world", i.e. the Player
can  simply hang in space though month and to do is nothing its right.
It  is  planned  to  allow  "  to  do  all ", but in the basic systems
presence of "Military-space Forces of Confederation of the Sun" (MFCS)
will  be  felt  and  Patrol  of  Secutiry council of the Worlds - will
disassemble  on  atoms  especially  cocky  quickly and effectively. We
think  of an opportunity for players "to sign" the contract on service
in   MFCS  for  concrete  game  time,  with  reception  of  additional
experience at participation in operations MFCS and patroling.

As  is  planned  to  resolve  joint  operations  "space + a surface of
planets",  -  i.e. at landing of troops on an another's planet players
can  support  from  an orbit fire the landing - the rockets which have
been  let  out  from an orbit, can amaze the purposes on a surface. It
will  be possible to land on a planet, to leave the ship and there "to
live",  or to construct the base and Cosmoport, to erect in ore places
own  factories  on  extraction  and  processing,  to  start  processes
terraforming  (the  majority  of the worlds initially are not suitable
for a life - the oxygen worlds - a greater rarity).

One  of  serious  questions  whom we now discuss, is an application of
modules " ALON " (A.I.). We plan to enable the Player to buy and apply
modules,  as  replacement  of  "pilot"  by technics which it wishes to
operate. Not the secret, that in others MMORPG the Player is compelled
to  pay  for  one  more account, and on it to do to itself "assistant"
(transportations,  manufacture, protection) - i.e. it turns out that 6
players  who have gathered in one place - actually are 2 alive persons
:)

We  initially  plan  presence  of  set  of "unopened" planets (hundred
thousand), which players will open and investigate. The general number
of  stars in a game Galaxy - nearby 1'000'000'000... And in general, -
the  card  of hypersphere in it of 100% a kind will be not not seen by
anybody  :)  Has begun is only the "marked" lines of Hypersphere (HS),
leaders to the basic worlds of the Manned Galaxy, and many not studied
branchings.  As  game  begins  with  a word "Expansion..." We consider
necessary   that   to  enable  players  to  search  to  ourselves  for
interesting  places :) we Assume that in a consequence " the market of
safe  HS-routes  " will be rather developed, i.e. more skilled players
can  create  the  routes  and  sell them. Well and if someone will put
station  HyperTransmitters  in  the star system found by it - that the
way to it becomes marked and accessible to all other players - but (to
attention  of  pirates!)  On  an  output  in  new system " undesirable
visitors " can get in a sight of batteries of planetary defense of the
one who "has lead" this route to the planet - all as to lives :)

On  the technical moments of realization the information while has the
status  "confidentially" :) as we shall approach to release - we shall
announce  that  will  be  possible  - meanwhile the general phrases: a
server  on UNIX to a platform, experts on multiline network processing
as  the  big number (tens thousand) simultaneously playing is supposed
are  involved.  The  primary  goal  of "network interaction" it "local
features  of Russia and Ukraine" - i.e. to enable to play and to users
from  the modem in 28kbit speeds (dialup), at least in variants with a
small  amount of the ships in "visible" the Player of a part. For this
purpose there are ideas - but the final result will show beta-testing.

The  command for today consists of three programmers (the basic work),
two  artists  (frilancer), three modellers (frilancer). Special thanks
to  Andrey  Livadnyy  for  its  participation  by  "word"  - we try to
correspond as much as possible "on spirit and a kind" to those objects
which  descriptions are given in products, but also there will be also
new ideas, what - while a secret :)

Development   of   Game   is   conducted   by   Kiev  company  "S_V_R"
(http://www.svr.ua)  The company earlier was not engaged in games, and
is  known  for  the  advanced  development  in  the  field  of complex
IT-systems.  Our  company  works  in  the market of telecommunications
since  1995.  Since  February,  1998  we  are  the official partner of
company Lucent Technologies (nowadays AVAYA Communication), the USA...

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Yes, I did read the first review and I thought it was very well thought out. I thought it spent a lot of time describing the gameplay and backstory. Being as this was a re-review I decided to use my space to focus on the gameplay elements that stood out to me personally rather then simply repeating the previous review.

Looking back I wish I would have gone into detail about all the elements that changed since the first review, but nonetheless it give an accurate picture of my take on the game. My opinion doesn't count for more just because it's published and it is silly to think I chose to do it for any other reason then it was available and needed another look. Obviously not everyone will agree with me, even the people who enjoy it for different reasons or have had different experiences in the game. That's the great thing about the forums: You are free to disagree.

Until next time

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Originally posted by ssstupido

  dont be so quick to call problems. for me the skill training is perfect, the best so far i have seen. IMHO it is just fair to reward veteran players not because they have paid more, but because they have been on the game more time, and real time training is the most elegant way to do that. and at the same time it takes away the grind.

 

and of course, you should know that the only reason you are able to catch up veterans on any other MMORPG is because they are capped at a pointless, stupid and artificial level limit. if it werent for that crappy feature veterans would be ahead on every game.

meanwhile, EVE accepts this, and decided to not have a level limit. instead there is a limit to every skill, so that you can only train to level 5. that, and the 300 different skills make it so that veterans can not be the best at everything and any new player can be the best at any single thing within 5 or 6 months, and be just as good as a 3 year old player.

i starte 1 year ago, and i am already wining a lot of money producing ships and modules, competing with 3 year vets on the same ground. at the same time i am a very good miner, and a decent mision runner and pvper. in fact, i am as good with the dominix as anybody can be. so i dont care if a veteran has 15 million skill points more than i do. when fighting on a domi nobody can have more skills than me.

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I am not surprised you like the real world time based skill system and that you happen to be from Europe.

The real world time based skill system is a socialist one, as it rewards and protects veterans and doesn't emphasize merit which would be more capitalistic.

I think the design stems from CCP's Icelandic/Scandinavian orientation. Most Scandinavian and some European countries are socialists, especially in regards to the workplace, protecting jobs regardless of productivity and  offering rewards mainly based on seniority. To some extent you see that here in America in the "old boys network" but certainly to a lesser extent than our European and Scandinavian counterparts.

Veterans would not be ahead of all players all the time in an open ended leveling-skill raising system. Obviously it would be based on an individuals participation in the virtual world. Newcomers who are more active will catch up and even surpass some veterans and that is fair.

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Originally posted by FragManDan

One of the most mature communitys Iv ever had the pleasure to be apart of.

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I wholly agree with you on this one.  I feel this is a function of the steep learning curve, in that it filters out some of the younger, more impatient crowd.  I don't think CCP has data available, but I'd bet the average age of the EVE player is older than most other MMORPGs.  It's style seems to be more compatable with someone who is more of a part-time gamer, maybe logging on for an hour or two, once every couple days.  I play in this way, and am able to run a nice small scale industrial operation, by myself.

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Originally posted by Ranma13

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Originally posted by Archebald
most of the review is great, but i have to agree, when you begin, it is hard to pvp effectively agains older player because skills are real time based.

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When you first begin, yes. But it's a misconception that you can never match someone who's played longer than you. This isn't a level-based game. Just because someone has 10 million more skillpoints than you, it doesn't mean they're invincible to your attacks. A person's abilities is dictated by what ship and modules they're currently using. Skills only add small percentages and allow you to use more modules but they are not uber-powerful style buffs.

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Id also like to add that everything is achievable, so lets take WoW as an example there is no way me being a casual player after 6-12 months of play and gaining level 60 able to compete against a player thats fully Tier 3 EPIC gear and belongs to a Tier 2-3 guild! i WILL NEVER see that gear. Now as for Eve-Online its a matter of time, remember there are ONLY 5 levels per catagory thus no matter how long the player has been in Eve-Online about all they will TRUELY have over you (aside from ingame skill/knowledge of PvP) is variety either way he will ONLY have Frigate 5 and all related skills for Frigate as 5 which is attainable by ANYONE over time.

I hope i made my point, im not very good expressing my self on forums.

Ship replavment always take time, as so many people tend todo it, often when its clearly there own fault they exploded. so have some patiants, if they rushed it many people would be having ships and isk replaced that didnt deserve it.

Also i feel you might have wanted to metion Kali and the new client and graphic updates, eve will soon be a much more shiny place to play :D

Other than that all good, just wish they would balance t2 bpo's these just too few resulting in a small number of tor ich for there won good players.

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Originally posted by Jorev

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Originally posted by ssstupido

  dont be so quick to call problems. for me the skill training is perfect, the best so far i have seen. IMHO it is just fair to reward veteran players not because they have paid more, but because they have been on the game more time, and real time training is the most elegant way to do that. and at the same time it takes away the grind.

 

and of course, you should know that the only reason you are able to catch up veterans on any other MMORPG is because they are capped at a pointless, stupid and artificial level limit. if it werent for that crappy feature veterans would be ahead on every game.

meanwhile, EVE accepts this, and decided to not have a level limit. instead there is a limit to every skill, so that you can only train to level 5. that, and the 300 different skills make it so that veterans can not be the best at everything and any new player can be the best at any single thing within 5 or 6 months, and be just as good as a 3 year old player.

i starte 1 year ago, and i am already wining a lot of money producing ships and modules, competing with 3 year vets on the same ground. at the same time i am a very good miner, and a decent mision runner and pvper. in fact, i am as good with the dominix as anybody can be. so i dont care if a veteran has 15 million skill points more than i do. when fighting on a domi nobody can have more skills than me.

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I am not surprised you like the real world time based skill system and that you happen to be from Europe.

The real world time based skill system is a socialist one, as it rewards and protects veterans and doesn't emphasize merit which would be more capitalistic.

I think the design stems from CCP's Icelandic/Scandinavian orientation. Most Scandinavian and some European countries are socialists, especially in regards to the workplace, protecting jobs regardless of productivity and  offering rewards mainly based on seniority. To some extent you see that here in America in the "old boys network" but certainly to a lesser extent than our European and Scandinavian counterparts.

Veterans would not be ahead of all players all the time in an open ended leveling-skill raising system. Obviously it would be based on an individuals participation in the virtual world. Newcomers who are more active will catch up and even surpass some veterans and that is fair.

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Originally posted by Datcyde 
     Ok you said 15 dreads........... im not even sure if any alliance actuly EVER flew with 15 dreads in a system  at once but if  they did it would be happening often. Im not sure if your complainign or what but ive never seen a exploit yet but i know that people that try to flood the system with shuttles or bantams can  get banned from the game.

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I'd rate EO has 7/10.. uninspired elite/freelancer/starflight clone with a lot of fun technicalities that keep players busy (which is good), lots of loot and a sandbox design but not much else unfortunately.

The only thing that makes this game shine is the player community and their creativity. It's sad that the game can't be more compelling on it's own, the gameplay in EO is very poor to begin with, it has to rely on players to make the game great, which I feel is a bit of a con here.

They could have far far more interesting missions, they could have cut down on travelling time, they could have made a beautiful and compelling universe, instead of a repetitive and dull one with the same scenery. Graphics aren't all that, same backgrounds, races look very quirky. It's nothing incredible here, certainly not worth a "9/10" at any rate.

This game is alright, but it's not incredibly original or super creative overall. I guess it compensates by having a ton of loot, like Everquest, a mediocre game with a tons of loot + large community.

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Originally posted by mhex

I'd rate EO has 7/10.. uninspired elite/freelancer/starflight clone with a lot of fun technicalities that keep players busy (which is good), lots of loot and a sandbox design but not much else unfortunately.

The only thing that makes this game shine is the player community and their creativity. It's sad that the game can't be more compelling on it's own, the gameplay in EO is very poor to begin with, it has to rely on players to make the game great, which I feel is a bit of a con here.

They could have far far more interesting missions, they could have cut down on travelling time, they could have made a beautiful and compelling universe, instead of a repetitive and dull one with the same scenery. Graphics aren't all that, same backgrounds, races look very quirky. It's nothing incredible here, certainly not worth a "9/10" at any rate.

This game is alright, but it's not incredibly original or super creative overall. I guess it compensates by having a ton of loot, like Everquest, a mediocre game with a tons of loot + large community.

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well I've started playing eve over the last 3 weeks and it's fantastic. I dont think it's a game for everyone but I think it's awesome how endless the possabilities are in game.

As for people attacking the review - a review is just a personal opinion after all. so what if it differs from other reviews (even from this site). I think it's good they are being updated.

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Originally posted by mhex

The only thing that makes this game shine is the player community and their creativity. It's sad that the game can't be more compelling on it's own, the gameplay in EO is very poor to begin with, it has to rely on players to make the game great, which I feel is a bit of a con here.

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Originally posted by Minsc

The whole point of the game is to interact with other players, that is WHY EVE is such a good game, it gives the players the freedom to create their own content be it politics/economy or anything else they can dream up within the game mechanics. This player-created content is FAR more compelling than any of the  static content  the devs can code and it's what has kept me in the game for 3+ years and counting.

Any MMO is only as good as it's community, without that there is really no point in even playing them. This can be masked to a point but eventually it will come to light.

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A very nice review overall.

I wish tho they waited till KALI 3 was released tho.

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Originally posted by Nicoli

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Originally posted by Minsc

The whole point of the game is to interact with other players, that is WHY EVE is such a good game, it gives the players the freedom to create their own content be it politics/economy or anything else they can dream up within the game mechanics. This player-created content is FAR more compelling than any of the  static content  the devs can code and it's what has kept me in the game for 3+ years and counting.

Any MMO is only as good as it's community, without that there is really no point in even playing them. This can be masked to a point but eventually it will come to light.

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its funny, I recently had a conversation with one of the members of a alliance that I was in a year ago. as we got to talking about old battles and our exploits and accomplishments, and the occasional running with our tails between our legs story. I realized that EVE is the only game that has that kind of experience a game with a History that you can share with players and reminisce with. That makes EVE enjoyable for me.

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It's one of those things that I consistantly harped on CCP for not doing: documenting the player's history/lore and formally integrating it into EVE's backstory.  The closest things we have to formal documentation of the player's history is the territorial maps, diplomacy chart, and the 2 articles written in EON issues #3 and #4.

You could literally write a whole series of novels based on the politics and conflicts of the last 3 years.  I consider it a huge mistake on CCPs part for not capturing all those moments in EVE history where the players dramatically shifted the course of its galaxy.

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Originally posted by Cerrian

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Originally posted by Nicoli

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Originally posted by Minsc

The whole point of the game is to interact with other players, that is WHY EVE is such a good game, it gives the players the freedom to create their own content be it politics/economy or anything else they can dream up within the game mechanics. This player-created content is FAR more compelling than any of the  static content  the devs can code and it's what has kept me in the game for 3+ years and counting.

Any MMO is only as good as it's community, without that there is really no point in even playing them. This can be masked to a point but eventually it will come to light.

---

its funny, I recently had a conversation with one of the members of a alliance that I was in a year ago. as we got to talking about old battles and our exploits and accomplishments, and the occasional running with our tails between our legs story. I realized that EVE is the only game that has that kind of experience a game with a History that you can share with players and reminisce with. That makes EVE enjoyable for me.

---

It's one of those things that I consistantly harped on CCP for not doing: documenting the player's history/lore and formally integrating it into EVE's backstory.  The closest things we have to formal documentation of the player's history is the territorial maps, diplomacy chart, and the 2 articles written in EON issues #3 and #4.

You could literally write a whole series of novels based on the politics and conflicts of the last 3 years.  I consider it a huge mistake on CCPs part for not capturing all those moments in EVE history where the players dramatically shifted the course of its galaxy.

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Yeah I see alot of wiki history articles whent the EVEwiki is released

Eve is a nice game but I really don't like the lies said in this review. Support tickets require AGES since 2005, it takes 3weeks when you are lucky but the common waiting time is 1-2 months now!
10/10 for performance? AHAHAH, eve is the most laggy game in the world, it stucks even for 5 minutes sometimes, since I play (2005) I saw a lot of lag issues, massive troubles never solved.

Please mmorpg.com you are the best magazine online about mmorpg and you are reviewing the best MMORPG, but try to be objective next time or write "this is another eve promotion" under your review!

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Originally posted by BuZZKilgore
Just the fact that you gave it a 10/10 for lag and performance takes your credibility down a few notches. There isn't an MMO on the market that doesn't have lag at one time or another.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by Datcyde
I came back like 3 months ago and sooooooo much has changed and the game is like 7X better im so glad ccp kept my charcter so i save like 2 months.

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That's great, but what specifically has changed that has made your particular experience better today than it was when you started?

If you could explain fully, and in detail in your experience before, and your experience now, as made possible by the game changes, it will better help us grasp exactly why its better to get into EVE now than at any other point.

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Seems like a bit of a silly question for you to ask when the information, being a current player, is at your fingertips.... are you saying your aren't aware of this: http://www.eve-online.com/features/ ?

Now, use the first expansion as a baseline and look at the features. Pretty straightforward so far. Next, look at the following expansions, and you see what has changed. Obviously, it's a lot of changes. Now to say that the basic gameplay itself hasn't changed, I'd disagree with you there as well. Again, it should be fairly obvious that themes and the like stay the same, as are many of the methods for doing things, but the focus of many things has evolved nearly beyond recognition. Player Owned Structures for example... they have had a huge impact on how alliances operate and vie for their space, and how others have to work against those structures. Compare that to how it was when Eve started.

Now look at the Kali Features, and read up on what is coming in the future. Can you possibly say this is the same game as it was in 2003?

Not reading the review, since I don't need it, been playing eve for 2 years

Just wanted to say that I think you guys could have waited to kali, you'll have to re review after kali anyway.

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Originally posted by Beastage

Not reading the review, since I don't need it, been playing eve for 2 years

Just wanted to say that I think you guys could have waited to kali, you'll have to re review after kali anyway.

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what? i can hear Beatnik59 scream from here "NOW IT'S CLEAR!!!! CCP ARE MMORPG.COM!!!! EVE: KALI IS EXACTLY THE SAME GAME THAN 5 YEARS AGO WHEN THEY RELEASED THE FIRST INFO AND SCREENS, NO NEED FOR A REVIEW"

anyway, yes, it'd be great to have a review after every expansion, not only from EVE, but from any game. come on, it's not like MMORPG.com staff have to review 10 games every week...

This is a very honost review in my opinion.  To review an MMO you need to delve into a game and it's impossible to explore every corner and find what's behind every door as you run through a MMO especially EVE with the size that it is.

To figure that the game's graphic's engine hasn't had an upgrade in over 3 years and still can hold its ground is testimony to the current game system and with Kali the games going to be reciveing a very large graphic's upgrade. 

As for the game not reaching it's height.  Remember this game's still growing and right now holds records for the most people online at one time on one server.  Also another server's in the process of going LIVE in China so yes this game's growing still.  It may not reach the membership levels of say WOW but it's doing what it was designed for.  Find a nitch in the MMO market and stay consistantly in that goal and to be honost I'm glad this game doesn't have that type of membership numbers.

EVE makes you have to think and sorry to say there are gamers out there that think power gaming is the way and if you can't grind up your character in a month to max level the game isn't worth it.  These are the type of people we don't want to see in EVE and to be honost I like the pace that EVE sets because it allows me to really get to explore my ship and learn its potential.  There's no "Game Over" button (though some will claim the Titan is once you see what it can do when the Doomsday Device goes active) 

Skill points in this game means squat.  It just means you have the capability to use more items but if you're not watching what you're doing even a 3 year old character could have there rear's handed to them by a character a few months old.  How many MMO's can say that when putting a level 80 character with the most expensive equipment vs a level 5 with low to mid grade equipment?

Either way don't knock it before you try it.

The most important thing about the new features is not their individual content, it's the fact that they're simple often but fundamental changes to a complex] system, and as such their impact is usually far more profound than their simple descriptions suggest. POS and sov have, for example, completely changed the nature of Alliance combat, along with the attendant dreadnaughts and other captials. The addtion of Tech 2 (since release IIRC) has fundamentally changed the economy. Some of the new ships (in particular Covert Ops ship and Interdictors) have again caused huge sweeping changes to the way PvP plays out. Similarly the simple addition of mobile war disruptors had major knock-on changes to how well you could control travel routes and thus interfere with combat and logistics efforts.

In any case, that's all secondary stuff. The important thing about Eve is the way the mechanics and tools allow player groups to interact. I fly with RAZOR, part of the "northern block" comprising half a dozen or so alliances in the north of the map, and I've been at war for going on two months now. At the beginning of July the map looked like this: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/CRII/01.07.108.jpg

The main northern block at the time was Dusk and Dawn (D2), ourselves, CDC, Guard and RAWR, with FLA Sparta and NFC at a somewhat uneasy peace in Dek. As you can see, Cloud Ring was contested by the Goons, an alliance made up mainly of thousands of new players from the SomethingAwful forums who managed to gain a foothold in CR due to, basically, sloppy admin work. We decided we didn't really want them there and started our war to evict them from our borderlands. The initial attack underestimated their strength and was repulsed, causing command staff to reduce the intensity of the conflict while they figured out a better second strike. This lead to several weeks of fighting in the contested area while things were sorted out.

Then chaos broke out in Deklein. IRON moved in to reclaim their former territory, and NFC resisted. FLA pitched in on the side of IRON as they'd recently fought a bloody civil war with former allies NFC, while Sparta remained wisely neutral. The other northern powers held back from intervening, as they had NAPs with all parties involved, IRON being very old friends of D2. Then an NFC fleet commander was caught actively helping the Goons move capital ships through Branch and several other events caused the remaining neutral parties in the north to side with IRON and FLA. NFC rapidly collapsed but many of their former corps (guilds) joined Sparta, who tried to retain NFC's hold on key systems. Everyone summarily declared war on Sparta, who hired in mercenaries Burn Eden and publically enlisted the Goons to help them. FLA replied by hiring Mercenary Coalition (after outbidding Sparta for their services) and the other northern alliances, determined to stop the Goons gaining a foothold in their heartlands, quickly shifted focus to Dek.

After a short but decisive war which saw the Goons unable or unwilling to lend the necessary support, Sparta collapsed and D2 took over their former territory. The strategic focus then went back to the Cloud Ring conflict, where the northern allies struck a fierce blow to the Goons, erecting thirty starbases in the key system over two nights, significantly outnumbering the Goon starbases and thus guaranteeing them control of the station after the five-day timer elapsed. The Goons responded with a call to arms from their leader, declaring their intention to bring in several large southern alliances, lock down the system and destroy the newly-erected starbases.

The first night of their seige went badly, with only two starbase towers damaged and none destroyed, and their overnight lockdown of the only stargate into the system swiftly dismantled as european-time forces came back online in the morning. It looked unlikely that they were going to succeed in their goal even then, but then a further blow came: due to a controversial forum signature (involving a dead player and SomethingAwful "humour") Band of Brothers, widely regarded as the strongest alliance in the cluster, declared a holy war on the Goons and vowed to destroy them utterly. Their expected strike against the Goon assets in Cloud Ring never came, but neither did the Goons' allies, many citing recent events as the reason for changing their mind. Unprecedented (and thus far unexplained) levels of system lag made the fighting on friday night near-impossible, but the Goons were faced with a herculean task anyway, one which they clearly didn't have the infrastructure to complete. Instead, they pulled their remaining assets out using jump-capable carriers and retreated to defend their homelands and wage war on their enemies in Empire space.

While we were busy in CR, the forces of the Tau Ceti Federation, a French-speaking alliance based in the no-man's-land of Venal, seized the opportunity to attack RAWR in Tribute. Unfortunately for them, the western front collapsed far more quickly than they'd predicted and allied forces piled back east to remove this latest threat. While smaller than the Goons, TCF are far more experienced fighters and the war thus far has been hard and bloody, with one engagement seeing both sides lose seven dreadnaught-class starbase-busters apiece. The first of the two contested systems has now returned to friendly hands but D7 still remains a contested system, sitting astride a vital travel corridor and thus being a key system to control. We're confident that we will eventually evict the squatters - their botched diplomacy means a settlement is unlikely at this stage - but we're expecting the war to go on for a while yet.

The map currently looks like this: http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/crii/10.08.108.jpg

Cloud Ring is now in the hands of RISE, who took ownership from D2 once the Goons were cleared out. Dek is now split between D2, FLA and IRON. And, although it's not shown (the map is produced by Joshua Foiritain, who's just another player and thus not always 100% accurate), Tribute is still disputed.

That is why a lot of us play Eve. Not because of the graphics or the mechanics or how many points it gets in a poxy review. If you want to go on bashing NPCs in WoW, be my guest. We're busy fighting a full-scale galactic war, with multiple fronts, a huge logistics chain, politics, drama, territory changing hands, and people losing days or weeks of work in a single ill-judged engagement against superior forces. I can go out there in my little frigate that I could fly when I was three weeks old and play an important role (yes, really) in a key battle which helps decide the fate of a thousand stars and ten thousand space pilots. At the end of the war, one side will win and the other side will lose in a real and tangible way, and as a result all this stuff matters. There aren't that many games out there that can make the same claim.

^ and that is exactly why i play eve.

toast whats ur nick in game ;p

-GNW vet.

HOO.

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Originally posted by (MG)Toast

......

<SNIP>

That is why a lot of us play Eve. Not because of the graphics or the mechanics or how many points it gets in a poxy review. If you want to go on bashing NPCs in WoW, be my guest. We're busy fighting a full-scale galactic war, with multiple fronts, a huge logistics chain, politics, drama, territory changing hands, and people losing days or weeks of work in a single ill-judged engagement against superior forces. I can go out there in my little frigate that I could fly when I was three weeks old and play an important role (yes, really) in a key battle which helps decide the fate of a thousand stars and ten thousand space pilots. At the end of the war, one side will win and the other side will lose in a real and tangible way, and as a result all this stuff matters. There aren't that many games out there that can make the same claim.

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Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

[snip]

As all the skills are time based (real world time) im not seeing how you were able to compete or achieve the skills necessary to do so.

[snip]

Also, im not sure how you can rate PvP so high in a game that you basically Pay to become more powerful. The real world time based skill system means you abilities and power increase the longer you have an account, as opposed to the achievement model of most other games ( you do something you get better, skill or level based games, how ever long it takes you).

Just to address these points, let me first say that EVE is a fully skill based game.  That takes a moment to sink in, unless you've played one before.  The implications are not just that there are no classes, but that there are no levels either, and no single player can ever become the best at everything.  Folks have calculated out that to learn every single skill in the game to max levels would take something like 20 years of real time!

That is how a new player can compete and even do quite well against veterans who've played since day one.  Sure, you'll never "catch up" and be as all-around powerful as one of the old timers, but you can be just as good at flying a frigate in a month.  Before you dismiss that, remember that EVE is a multiplayer game, and frigates serve an important role in fleet combat.  Unless you're just being a gate ganker, or a POS killer, you can always PvP in frigates, and honestly they're fun to fly.  Added bonus that if you lose, you're probably only out a few million... losing a battleship hurts!

It's also quite possible to be an effective trader in only a month.  You won't be flying the billion ISK freighter, but you can move an impressive amount of refined minerals in even a small industrial ship.  Buying low in one region and selling in another is a good way to make money.  Hauling for mining corporations is another.

Unlike other games out there, EVE doesn't hold your hand and lead you from point to point in your career.  You really have to get in there and figure things out, and IMHO that's half the fun of it.

I have never had a high respect for this site as a professional gaming website anyways, but the info here is often good.

EvE is a boring game if you dont like every single aspect of it. Very boring.

Being totally honest and generous i give EVE a total rating of 6. Fun factor a 3.

MMORPGs are going to be split into more accurate categories in the near future or even get another name. Over 90% of the games covered on this website are extremely boring to play, except wow but im burnt out on it and cant enjoy it anymore. But games like SUN, Hellgate London and Huxley are on the horizon and there is a huge demand for such games. Action packed and fast.

I have a 22m eve char still in trainig so i have played for more than just the trial. (im not paying for it and my friend is training it)

As people have stated before the real time learning system does heavily favor veteran players. I agree that time spent in game should relate to how much a person gains skill wise and item wise. However, there is one aspect people seem to be forgeting in that this game does take some merit of skill. Of course you will never know the same amount of skills as other pilots who started before you, but that doesn't mean they will blow you out of the water everytime you cross paths. What will put off most people about this game is the simple fact that there is some actual thought and skill involved when it comes to making your choices, and this doesn't come when you get to a certain level. It is thrown at you the minute you create your character. Like I have stated before I agree that players who actually play more should recieve better turn outs than those who don't. However games that work in this manner have their downfalls as well. It shouldn't be enough that since you play more than one person you should be better than he or she is. To many games are designed poorly in this way. Ultimately when it comes down to it a players worth isn't measured by their skills and actual knowledge of the game, but by pure time spent online. While Eve works in the same way by favoring those who have been with the game longer than others. Good Arguements have been made to suggest that with the right forethought and skill a player who has started later than another stands a good chance. This does not negate the fact that their real time based skill system was a poor design element in the overall scheme of things. It simply contradicts the statement that those who have played longer or payed more will always win because there are other variables such as the intelligence and skill each individual player has.

I think Eve was a fun game while I played it, but it is not a game for those who are simply looking for the next run of the mill MMORPG. Create your character, pick a class, kill mobs to level up. The road isn't that simple, and I think those who expect it to be will find themselves going nowhere.  

Cekar

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Originally posted by Gorukha
I love how people mention the steep learning curve and brag about it as if it was a game feature. 
Most of the time a steep learning curve derives from bad planning or lasiness of the programmers to educate the newbies on how to play the game through in-game help.  A game being hard to get into is a minus since it drives people away, and I'm pretty sure that's not a good strategy in designing a game financially speaking. 

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Some times I wonder if  I speak english I see so many grammer errors

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Originally posted by Gorukha
LOL I saw so many fanbois preaching about how fun this game is....so I tried it AGAIN after a long time.....after 4 hours I can honestly say this is one of the most boring games EVER.  I agree with yah 100%, this game is for some wierd people who like alot of downtime during play and have absolutely no taste whatsoever .  For someone to give this game anything more than a 2 or 3 in the fun factor category is an insult to my tiny intelligence.

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Alright, I got tired of reading the fan posts versus the non-fan posts. I will start off by saying that I started playing this game in 2002 as part of the closed beta. Much has changed in the universe of Eve-Online. So much so that I hold a huge regret about not having stayed subscribed the entirety of the time. In the last stages of beta, there were still many problems with the game, they removed alot of features that would cause problems later on, and added a few that seemed somewhat stupid in my own opinion. The day of the global release, there were numerous problems ingame that rendered it unplayable to a vast majority.

There has been much debate on whether the content has changed enough to warrant a re-review of the game in its whole. I would have to say that yes, a review of the game at release does not do any good justice to the game at its present state. That being said, many other games would also warrant a re-review.

Content has changed massively since the dawn of Eve-Online. Tech 2 modules and ships, huge change in the gameplay and skill requirements for usage. Hundreds of skills to choose from, only the basics were available when I started playing. Player Owned Structures/Alliances/System Sovereignty, all hugely important features that were added later. The much dreaded and infamous redistribution of ore, one of the largest changes to shape the universe of Eve. For those that do not know about it, there was once high-end ore in as high as .7 (Crokite etc.). Capital Ships, long awaited since the dawn of time. We were promised Titans as a future ship class before we left beta.

For those that dispute the "Fun" value given by the reviewer, they must realise that Eve-Online is a sandbox game. The fun is what fun you create for yourself. Recent events revealed a scammer that walked away with something like 490billion isk, I'm pretty sure he perceived that as fun :). The world is a big place, and you are more than welcome to commit piracy, become a merchant, forge your way as an industrial powerhouse, defend (and sieze) space that you call your own.

In my opinion Eve-Online is one of the best MMORPGs out there, one that allows you to forge your own destiny and make a name for yourself in a community of thousands.

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Originally posted by xalode

 Recent events revealed a scammer that walked away with something like 490billion isk, I'm pretty sure he perceived that as fun :).

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Yea I think he is pretty much the designated "winner" of EVE.

Now, who wants second place?

[quote]My only gripes in this category are the strange ability for you to be able to see the sun though completely solid matter like planets, moons or your own ship. [/quote]

If you would have done a little more research, you would have found out that this is simply a graphics option you had turned off.  I'm not sure what it is right now, but when turned off it allows you to see the sun through solid objects.  Otherwise the sun acts normally and is obscured by solid objects.  Try changing your graphics options and rethink this comment.  It makes you look rather silly and ignorant in your review.

If this was already mentioned, my apologies.  It had to be said though since it is misleading and false for many players who have all their graphics turned up.  (Not hard with the game's requirement being so low)

"this game is nothing more then spent money = skill"

You come on here , saying that skills are not all that important to be something in EvE but as soon as something is mentioned about changing the skill  learning your all against it because you put in "your own time and money in it" so why should the new guy get any advantages?... I find this line of thinking funny when u say skills are not all that important..

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Originally posted by Gorukha
I love how people mention the steep learning curve and brag about it as if it was a game feature. 
Most of the time a steep learning curve derives from bad planning or lasiness of the programmers to educate the newbies on how to play the game through in-game help.  A game being hard to get into is a minus since it drives people away, and I'm pretty sure that's not a good strategy in designing a game financially speaking. 


 Another thing that will decrease the player base is this great feature you fine folks flaunt.  I am referring to the fact you will NEVER EVER catch up to an active older player.  Yes this is a great feature.  I will always be inferior , that is the selling point of EVE to new players GENIUS

  But wait there's more. Once you get into the meat and potatoes of the game aka PvP yaaaaaay, there's a steep penalty for death....boooooooo.  Yes this is what will make anyone want to play EVE, especially considering that death hurts players with alot less resources more aka newers players.  BRILLIANCE

  The strategy of the EVE makers is obviously simple.  They have made a game which only veteran players aka fanbois would want to buy.  Now this is great dog gone way to get asses in seats.

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Originally posted by dabagboy


Despite everything you suggest the funny thing is you are proven wrong by the numbers the game has grown from about 30,000 subscribers at release to 125,000 in June 2006 http://www.mmogchart.com/ and more than doubled in the past 12 months, i.e. the rate of growth is accelerating.

So I guess some new subscribers are finding it interesting, as they appear to be getting "asses in seats."    So next time you flame a game for being universally unattractive check your facts.   But then that would take time and you probably don't have a lot of time between your middle school detentions and Ritalin injections.

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Originally posted by Gorukha
  any more fanboi posts ? I think EVe pays people to come on here and spout these overhyped endorsments lol.

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Originally posted by Delameko
So, because you don't like it, everyone that does is a fanboi...

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There is one thing I can say about the people who try and subsequently reject EVE.  They usually have concrete and specific reasons for coming to the decision they have.  I don't think that people take the time to log in and criticize something unless there is a reason, and a good reason that other people can understand and relate to.

I have yet to be convinced that the people who hype EVE here hype it for any other reason than to get another $20 dollars into the game, and another person to take advantage of in the game.  EVE fans honestly don't care whether or not people enjoy themselves in EVE, or they would work to make EVE better, rather than make excuses as to why the game is rejected by people who gave it a chance to prove itself.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by Delameko
So, because you don't like it, everyone that does is a fanboi...

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There is one thing I can say about the people who try and subsequently reject EVE.  They usually have concrete and specific reasons for coming to the decision they have.  I don't think that people take the time to log in and criticize something unless there is a reason, and a good reason that other people can understand and relate to.

I have yet to be convinced that the people who hype EVE here hype it for any other reason than to get another $20 dollars into the game, and another person to take advantage of in the game.  EVE fans honestly don't care whether or not people enjoy themselves in EVE, or they would work to make EVE better, rather than make excuses as to why the game is rejected by people who gave it a chance to prove itself.

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Wow... this article just reeks of overrated bigtime...

Performance/Lag ............... 9/10?????

That category does include game stability as well doesn't it? Worst uptime record of any MMORPG on the market and you give it a 9/10? Lot's of data is very much delayed when displayed.... Traffic advisories throughout 80% of Caldari space due to high serverload (95% CPU or higher). A game that invented the term CTD (Crash to Desktop) should at least give you an idea. Ever been locked by 20 NPC pirates/rats at once? 10 second total system lockup guarnteeing you to loose your ship (most likely caused by serverlag, playing on a DELL M1710 fully maxed out here).

Realisticly this should be 5/10

Customer Support .............. 9/10????

Did you EVER file a petition??? Ow wait they prolly knew who you were and priotorized your petitions. Waiting for weeks or even months to get an answer is COMMON. Yes COMMON. Not to mention the more then annoying autoresponders who don't help at all. True when you do get a human response it's often good, the wait time is totally unacceptable though. Compare this to DAOC where you get a human response within 4 hours on average or within a day at least. Through one on one personal chat with a support staff member instead of incomplete e-mails.

Realisticly this should be 2/10

That's not even touching the major flaws in their PvP system or Agent system.

Isn't it fun? Ow jeah it is fun especially because you can play and be anything that you can fly or fit into your ships.

The really good stuff in EvE is the market system and crafting system however, the PvP is a thrill sure enough but it's a numbers and gate camping game. The biggest thrill comes from the cost and effort you loose when loosing a ship.

Ow and euhrm.... A shield tank fitting (if that handfull of resists even counts as a tank) on a Brutix combined with blasters? Come meet me any day of the week. Tip: more low slots then meds = armor tank; more meds then lows = shield tank.

Another point completly missed is the fact that EvE is terrible slow, except in the pvp department where you can loose your stuff in seconds. (way too gank and choke point friendly, numbers win the day any day).

With the skillsystem you forget what to mention how it feels to train yet another lvl 5 skill up to lvl 5 and having to waits months of real time for it to complete in or to be able to fit that component you wanted to fit.

Also Graphics wise you completly don't touch the fact that you don't have anything but a static jpg representing your character, i.e. total lack of character feel. Custom paint job of your ship? Dream on. All ships are identical in the looks department.

Still, the biggest pro of the game is the enormous flexibility in allowing you to be and do whatever you want and where ever through it's sandbox model and unlimited freedom in ship outfitting and suburb craftingsystem. This is where the real pull is.

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Originally posted by Lepidus

Every year, we're trying to re-review every major MMORPG. These things change and one review for all simply wont do. Today, we tackle what is sure to be the most controversial of the reviews: EVE Online. For years, it has led our rating meter and swept last year's Reader's Choice Awards. Here is our latest review.

It is time once again for an intrepid explorer to jump inside a goo-filled sphere and take a fresh look at the world of EVE Online. It’s a step not taken lightly though, as the life of a pod pilot is filled with danger, challenge and hopefully a wallet full of ISK. There are no promises of wealth and power, but with determination and skill you can make your mark on the galaxy, wether or not that mark is a kill stamp on a pirate’s hull or not is up to you. Since the last review quite a bit has been added to the EVE universe in the form of three major content expansions called Exodus, Cold War and Red Moon Rising. Exodus added tons of new ships, modules and skills, but also added the capability for groups of Corporations to form Alliances to control their territory and defend it from others with Starbases. These allowed for entirely new level of galactic conquest and many great player empires had risen and fallen in the two years since.

You can read our full review here.

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Originally posted by Captain_Poo

Regarding the comments about the seemingly perfect graphics: Either this is a biased, short-sighted, blindfolded review or the reviewer completely lacks of fantasy. If there is nothing to render "... in the frozen voids of space ..." why does every system has those ultra-gaudy nebulae (or nebulae background pics through which you aren't able to fly, respectively)? The inflation of nebulae (which apparently is supposed to conceal the emptiness of space and the great similarities between the EVE systems) makes space far from being realistic - hence there is no reason why CCP shouldn't put some giant tornados and other weird stuff in space. Paradoxically, deadspace is full with that kind of stuff, non-instanced space is almost empty.

Plus there is no variety of stars, i.e. double stars, there are no black holes, no comets etc. Those tiny asteroid belts are a joke as well. Why are there no flying solitaires or huge belts which embrace the whole system?

I have been playing EVE for one week now and spent approx. 100% of the time in some psychedelic warp pipes or 15 - 0 miles away from stations and jump gates. K, sometimes I actually warped in (static) asteroid belts (which all look the same btw) or ultra-detailed mission zones, where - like in those asteroid belts - everything interesting can be found in a bunch of gimmicks floating in void.

In fact, there are no incentives for explorers - travelling in EVE consists of warping from A to B (or to that instanced deadspace) hectically.

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Originally posted by Cowinspace
As for the double stars, I don't know. The black holes would be stupid, they would consume anything in the system.

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The truth about Performance/Lag: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=393189

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Originally posted by DrAtomic

Wow... this article just reeks of overrated bigtime...

Performance/Lag ............... 9/10?????

That category does include game stability as well doesn't it? Worst uptime record of any MMORPG on the market and you give it a 9/10? Lot's of data is very much delayed when displayed.... Traffic advisories throughout 80% of Caldari space due to high serverload (95% CPU or higher). A game that invented the term CTD (Crash to Desktop) should at least give you an idea. Ever been locked by 20 NPC pirates/rats at once? 10 second total system lockup guarnteeing you to loose your ship (most likely caused by serverlag, playing on a DELL M1710 fully maxed out here).

Realisticly this should be 5/10

Customer Support .............. 9/10????

Did you EVER file a petition??? Ow wait they prolly knew who you were and priotorized your petitions. Waiting for weeks or even months to get an answer is COMMON. Yes COMMON. Not to mention the more then annoying autoresponders who don't help at all. True when you do get a human response it's often good, the wait time is totally unacceptable though. Compare this to DAOC where you get a human response within 4 hours on average or within a day at least. Through one on one personal chat with a support staff member instead of incomplete e-mails.

Realisticly this should be 2/10

That's not even touching the major flaws in their PvP system or Agent system.

Isn't it fun? Ow jeah it is fun especially because you can play and be anything that you can fly or fit into your ships.

The really good stuff in EvE is the market system and crafting system however, the PvP is a thrill sure enough but it's a numbers and gate camping game. The biggest thrill comes from the cost and effort you loose when loosing a ship.

Ow and euhrm.... A shield tank fitting (if that handfull of resists even counts as a tank) on a Brutix combined with blasters? Come meet me any day of the week. Tip: more low slots then meds = armor tank; more meds then lows = shield tank.

Another point completly missed is the fact that EvE is terrible slow, except in the pvp department where you can loose your stuff in seconds. (way too gank and choke point friendly, numbers win the day any day).

With the skillsystem you forget what to mention how it feels to train yet another lvl 5 skill up to lvl 5 and having to waits months of real time for it to complete in or to be able to fit that component you wanted to fit.

Also Graphics wise you completly don't touch the fact that you don't have anything but a static jpg representing your character, i.e. total lack of character feel. Custom paint job of your ship? Dream on. All ships are identical in the looks department.

Still, the biggest pro of the game is the enormous flexibility in allowing you to be and do whatever you want and where ever through it's sandbox model and unlimited freedom in ship outfitting and suburb craftingsystem. This is where the real pull is.

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LoL you are an ideot are you not

This article was made BEFORE the dragon patch.

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Originally posted by DrAtomic

The truth about Performance/Lag: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=393189

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As for the current Lag you try reprogramming the core program of a MMO without causing some problems

What CCP did was akin to relacing the branches of a tree with new sleaker branches without disturbing the leaves.

Its quite obvious that you are really RAFdood

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Originally posted by LordSlater

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Originally posted by DrAtomic

Wow... this article just reeks of overrated bigtime...

Performance/Lag ............... 9/10?????

Realisticly this should be 5/10

Customer Support .............. 9/10????

Realisticly this should be 2/10

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LoL you are an ideot are you not

This article was made BEFORE the dragon patch.

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Hmmm, maybe just maybe before you start calling people idoets (idiots) you should check the post date versus the Dragon patch release date.

And concerning your childish RAFdood remark... have the moderators check my ip addresses, writing style, grammar mistakes and whatever not. I'm most certainly not related to RAFdood in any form.

Funny enough though I do share his vision because it is an actual and factual representation of the game, it's mechanics and it's dynamics. You can name it a sandbox because you only ever implemented 5% of the game you designed but you wont fool me.

Also as opposed to RAFdood I'm still playing (toon creation date 2004), I happen to share his judgement and have been posting it long before he ever did (never read any of his forum posts that i'm aware of, happened to read his review today which led to me reposting mine and you scouting out my post history in order to be the fanboi you are).

Eve has some very broken parts to it, disappointing PvP (gatecamps 'r us, numbers 'r us, skill doesn't count,  bookmarks = win, no game mechanics to counter this, jamming and scramming = winning, bot accounts will keep you alive), very poor NPC related content (worst of any mmorpg I've played), travel is slowest of any mmorpg i played (yes that includes DAOC before there were horse routes), poor interface (hardly any keyboard controls, not customizable) with very unlogical menus and hidden settings, it takes you 4 hours to collect stuff and a new ship to replace a destroyed one but only 3 seconds to loose it, lack of group ability other then with corp mates due to trust issues caused by game design, terrible untrustworthy gang system (interface lies/lags or simply doesnt relay info), 16.5 years (real life) required to complete the current skilltree with +5 implants, this game forces you to specialice your trade into one direction without giving the ability to experience the other parts of the game to it's fullest thus excluding you from allready limited gameplay options, a game that invented the term CTD (crash to desktop) and getting 9/10 for performance/lag lol, i'm playing EvE on a fully decked Dell M1710 (2mbit DSL) and 30 rats locking me locks up my system for a good 10 seconds.

The pro's it has for me are: 1a. awesome economy system, 1b. awesome crafting system which ties in with 1(allthough mining for minerals is the devil), 2. most flexibel 'character' (ship=character) system in any mmorpg to date (you want to be support, throw in the support mods, want to be full gank throw in the gank modules) , 3. true mmo, one server lags err fits all not the silly sharded stuff, you know someone who plays EvE look him up and kill him no silly ow crap he's on another server stuff :o).

The re-review is poor and a fanboi article at best, it lacks neutrality, EvE is fun yes but I'm envisioning something very very different with the grades it was awarded. Imho EvE is also very very light on features, after three years the game is now in a semi-stable release state (pre Dragon patch).

Ow and warning in advance bag your wow remarks, because yes, I've tried WoW in beta and judged it one big utter grind masked well. So I never went out and bought it, funny thing people are now all saying the same.

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Originally posted by DrAtomic 

Eve has some very broken parts to it, disappointing PvP (gatecamps 'r us, numbers 'r us, skill doesn't count,  bookmarks = win, no game mechanics to counter this, jamming and scramming = winning, bot accounts will keep you alive), very poor NPC related content (worst of any mmorpg I've played), travel is slowest of any mmorpg i played (yes that includes DAOC before there were horse routes), poor interface (hardly any keyboard controls, not customizable) with very unlogical menus and hidden settings, it takes you 4 hours to collect stuff and a new ship to replace a destroyed one but only 3 seconds to loose it, lack of group ability other then with corp mates due to trust issues caused by game design, terrible untrustworthy gang system (interface lies/lags or simply doesnt relay info), 16.5 years (real life) required to complete the current skilltree with +5 implants, this game forces you to specialice your trade into one direction without giving the ability to experience the other parts of the game to it's fullest thus excluding you from allready limited gameplay options, a game that invented the term CTD (crash to desktop) and getting 9/10 for performance/lag lol, i'm playing EvE on a fully decked Dell M1710 (2mbit DSL) and 30 rats locking me locks up my system for a good 10 seconds.

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Originally posted by Nicoli

I just had to respond to this... Its just so incomplete. I mean lets give all the information with out the hate slant plz.

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It's only a natural reaction to all the one sided fanboi looks, it's not perfect, it's fun yes, but far from perfect, the best Sci-FI MMORPG without a doubt, best MMORPG all around, no way.

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Originally posted by Nicoli

Lets start with the SP to max -  well its about 22 years not including implants (you should have used this number would have been more dramatic). You need to specialize to max out quickly... No kidding... Big surprise I'm sure when you went into WoW, EQ, CoX, RF-online, etc... you picked a class right, guess that would be a specialization. Hmm so how long would it take in class game X to have every class for every race trained up to max with the best gear out there? Be honest I don't have a number for that but I doubt you find it much lower than a few years. And in those its not like you can build a single character rep while doing it cause you will have upwards of 30 alts on about 3-4 servers.

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Personally I rate 16.5 with maxed learning skills and +5 implants more dramatic then the 22 years without since it means that no matter what it'll take you 16.5 years. Being able to use all the games content (without being able to fly capital ships) would still be 6 years. what it boils down to is that if you want to experience the game to it's fullest you'll prolly need 3 accounts for a 2 year period each. Given that the average player sticks around for 7 months most of the content is left untouched.

That is exactly my point, in any other MMORPG my character specialization doesn't exclude me from the content; EvE does, sure other MMORPGS exclude me from character specific abilities but it doesn't shut me out from PvP, crafting, trading, exploring or NPC-ing effectivly.

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Originally posted by Nicoli

4 hours to replace a ship- yep 4 hours everytime... unless you buy more than one ship fittings at a time and keep a store of them. <etc>

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True, but you know just as me that such isnt always viable and the BPO argument... sure maybe after my toon is 4 years old or something I'll have the SP for it.

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Originally posted by Nicoli


BMs=4tw - HaHa Ha Ha, plz tell me that again. nothing to counter them, absolutely no warp interdiction spheres or deployable warp disruption Bubbles... oh yeah guess there are. Sure both can only be used in low sec but hey thats where the BMs are the win right?

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As you wish BM's=4tw. You don't have BMs you're not gonna win a single fight. The warp bubble argument doesnt apply here. I'm not talking instas, I'm talking tactical BMs. It's due to warpin limitations; I cant set a warpin point 50 KM to the right of a gate and warp my gang in at their respective optimal ranges as any fighter pilot on Earth in the year 2006 is able to do and does without tactical BMs. The dependancy on tactical BMs causes a lag of skill based 'dog' fights where you'd be flying around each other approaching and moving away unless you'd have a tactical bookmark set there.

 

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Originally posted by Nicoli

Interface Customization - Well your going to have to tell me what you want done here. Frankly the base interface is pretty usefull, Never have a issue of too many powers/modules/actions and not enough button slots. Not saying that it's perfect, would like a better drone control subsection with keybindings but its nothing game stopping. I remeber my WoW and CoH days where I would have more powers than I had slots to put them and I HAD to use something to customize it.

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1. No hidden settings all over the place, all settings in one place. Usability is the keyword. Ask anyone where to find and change their CSPA charge and behaviour, 95% of the userbase doesn't know where and how to do it.

2. Full keybinding control, heck most of the controls only have mouse controls. The mouse quick controls dont work too well either if you are getting shot since your target is moving due to your screen shaking from the hits.

3. Friendly, accessibel options, logical ordered menus and options.

 

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Originally posted by Nicoli
Inability to trust non-corpmates - Welcome to MMOs, If you think this is a EVE specific problem your well either inexperenced or just never looked at it. I never trusted anyone in WoW that wasn't part of my guild, espicially with it being a item based game.  And my time with CoH was always horrible with people not completing the Taskforce and dropping out, and that brings me to a nice change of subject.
 

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Meh, I'm not talking about trust in that sense, in that respect even corpmates will let you down sooner or later such is the nature of MMORPGs. I'm talking game dynamics which stimulate abuse such as innergang aggression (invite person into gang under false pretence take him down to low sec and gangking him for grief or ransom him for grief whilst the player was trying to make new friends and enjoy human interaction in a MMORPG). The game has enough hostile possibilities to do without innergang aggression. This restricts the community to inside corp grouping and hurts new players bad who are used differently from other MMORPGs/Communities especially since they dont have a corp other then the noob corp yet. Item trust issues within a gang with people you dont know sure, np, loosing everything you have because you wanted to help out or have fun meeting other people that is veeeeerrrry bad.

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Originally posted by Nicoli

Lag out for 10 seconds - about 3 seconds here, and my computer is about a year and a half old now and running on a slower DSL connection. <computer advice>

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Nope it's not the computer it's a game client performance issue. 30 NPC's locking you in a 6/10 does wierd things client sided.

 

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Originally posted by Nicoli


EVE server issues- yep they there, not going to argue it. CCP won't argue it, infact as you pointed out they have a blog on it. I have had another game company tell me that it was my problem when noone in my guild could get on. But yeah they need to hurry to get all the bugs out of the Dragon code. realize that the last 2 periods of major issues were when Valar madea DB config error and the bugs from the dragon code swap. And they are working on it. needs to go faster but frankly it needs to be done right not fast. 

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I'm not talking Dragon on itself, heck my post was pre-Dragon, this keeps happening over and over from the start of EvE be it a patch that breaks everything for months, be it an 'expansion' be it hardware sizing limitations. CCP let's it happen time and time again and only starts reacting once it has happened dragging the issues out for months.

 

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Originally posted by Nicoli

Customer Service- If you have a real problem they get to it fast 1-2 hours. By real I mean Stuck, Exploits, the major problems. Lossed items are generall too bad in other games and thats where the petition que is. Then again there are those who petition everything or do extremely risky stuff during times the server is obviously having problems hoping that if they do lose the ship, they can blame it on server issues and get it back. its not all the cases but they are there. 

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Well my experience is very very different, quickest human response I ever got (outside of a lost password message) was 3 weeks. And that was with an issue that didn't allow me to play the game (20 crashes per hour). Even my brand new Dell M1710 CTDs 9/10 on undocking from a certain station. Don't you dare to update your drivers either since that will most certainly cause issues with EvE.
 

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Originally posted by Nicoli
Over all EVE's not perfect and most of the issues it has aren't limited to EVE and in many cases are significantly less forgivable on other games due to thier sharded natures. but with some minor tweaking not as drastic as you suggested the review would have been more accurate.

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That's the thing really where a little bug or crash or broken functionality doesn't really hurt you other then being annoying in any other MMORPG it can hurt you bad in EvE to the extent of loosing weeks worth of farming stuff. The current lag related issues in Dragon costed me nearly 500 million worth in ships, modules and implants which will not be reimbursed even if it's serversided problems causing it. Hence they basicly disabled PvP untill it's all fixed.

Well my thought is that people who dont play eve for whatever reason should congratulate eve for providing  the only space mmorpg, and to continuously support it.

Point is some people actully enjoy eve becuse there are no other games like it [as in set in space]. So i think thet before you slate eve you keep those points in mind.

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Originally posted by LordSlater

Well my thought is that people who dont play eve for whatever reason should congratulate eve for providing  the only space mmorpg, and to continuously support it.

Point is some people actully enjoy eve becuse there are no other games like it [as in set in space]. So i think thet before you slate eve you keep those points in mind.

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And that is exactly what is wrong with the re-review and EvE's rating. EvE being the only space mmorpg out there (cough not entirely true since we also have SWG) DOESNOT make it the best MMORPG ever built, the fact that it has PvP in space DOESNOT make it the best PvP game around (for it is not).

Is EvE different? Yes. Did EvE do everything better then all the other MMORPGS out there? No not at all. Should you be rating EvE higher then any other MMORPG because it's set in space and you love space over Elf Woods? No, compare game dynamics, look at the core elements, look at the play options, question yourself how'd you like the game if you loved fantasy instead of Sci-Fi?

Should you be giving all 10-s because you love the game simply because it's set in space? Nope. Be honest, dare to see the flaws, be critical for it will yield you a better game instead of dozed off developers who arent getting slapped for mistake upon mistake.