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TERA News - En Masse Responds to NCSoft Lawsuit
Posted by Suzie Ford on Jan 27, 2012 | 73 comments in our forums
After originally stating that En Masse would refrain from commentary regarding the TERA lawsuit filed by NCSoft, Publishing Vice President Chris Lee has been quoted on the official forums summarily dismissing the allegations...and saying that the company would refrain from further commentary.
"We are disappointed that NCsoft is attempting to mar the launch of TERA. Unfortunately we can't discuss much publicly due to the sensitivity of legal actions, but we do outright reject the NCsoft claims, and we are going to do everything in our power to defend and protect ourselves.
To all our supporters who have been anticipating the arrival of TERA – please know that this situation has no impact on our continuing efforts to realize the vision we have for our game. We are committed to making TERA awesome and delivering the game to you on time on May 1. Thank you for your patience and support."
Source: Massively
Good luck
Only a duel to the death by pistols at dawn can truly resolve this situation. It is demanded.
I think they should play a match of unreal tournament to see who wins this
See what I did there?
To all our supporters who have been anticipating the arrival of TERA – please know that this situation has no impact on our continuing efforts to realize the vision we have for our game.
they stole the code, lost case in korea and still calling tera thier game?
:D
No rematches!
Sure if it's possible to steal your own work, then I guess they stole it...
I know they were under NCsoft payment, but these type of legal questions are so stupid since they can't really unlearn their own vision for a new project. Sure they lost the case in Korea, but they basically payed NCsoft a large amount of money, so there shouldn't be a problem.. NCsoft are just being D's now for doing this close to launch.
You're clever today ;)
This is like Tabula Rasa all over again. This game sounds like it's doomed to become vapourware, the more I hear about this lawsuit.
Obviously you need to read what happened. BHS and EME are in the wrong here. Simple as that.
And how exactly was NCSoft supposted to take a claim to US courts before EME made a offical move to launch in the US (i.e. a launch date for release)? Considering they only just recently posted a release date NCSoft acted pretty quickly.
I was wondering when this issue would raise its' head. NA's laws on this matter are much more stringent and they have already given in on the suit filed in Korea. I don't know that double jeopardy could even possibly count.
NCSoft is really just bleeding these guys now.
Would be funny if TERA came here and was a breakout hit given how Aion has done.
Hey Letyson, I don't think you realize how this stuff works.
When you are hired by a company you sign contracts that stated that anything you create using company tools, money or anything you create on company time belongs to that company.
Sometimes companies also have employees sign a non-compete agreement.
So sure, one can't unlearn what one learns while at a company but once you are no longer part of that company you must apply what you learn in a way that doesn't infringe on what you created at that company.
I honestly could care less about what NCSoft thinks. Their games are never that good except Guild Wars 2. I wonder if Tera's release date has anything to do with the fact with Guild Wars 2's release plans. Interesting at best I think.
I know very well what happen, but this goes beyond money and reason. They are just doing this now to get payback when they left the company to start with. NCsoft have had all the time to take this case up, and they decide to do it now, and for what?
If NCsoft wins they can just sit back then and say: "Awesome, that was great we made them loose this case, now they can't release their game because it's our material, now we'll have no worries when we release Guild Wars 2"
... ye great, thx NCsoft, you sure did need that
When you enter the real workforce you will find out real quick why BHS is in the wrong. There are contracts and forms that were signed and if they used any of the code that belonged to NCSoft in Tera then it is wrong and the game should be stopped. This has zero to do with unlearning something. When I took my position I had to sign non compete agreements and I have seen my company sue succesfully when people took work we were doing here to another company. When you enter tha real world arena you will come face to face with these legally binding situattions.
They didnt sue just now, NC and BHS are in court for years already
Tera is no competition to GW2. GW2 is mass market and aimed at a large audience. Tera is aimed to a niche audience.
You know what would be bad? If they hired some people who inserted the L3 source code into Tera without telling anyone. They got the jobs because they could produce code, and instead of producing it, they copied it.
Yes I know that, but that doesn't mean I actually agree on it.
Coding and ideas are like craftsmanship, no matter how much you restrict yourself will you keep finding small similarities here and there. I know that BHS and EME have a bad case here, and I know that through court procedures NCsoft have all the right to claim their stuff since they were paying the people and they were under contract.
I just feel like this could hurt us who are waiting for Tera, just because NCsoft wants to be "right" D:
GW2 is b2p. tera, most likely is p2p, i really couldnt see the competition that tera will have against gw2.
Someone in the official forum , and here, did say that BH is not allow to publish the game any further, but i dont know why NC didnt stop them from publishing in Jap.
every country has different laws.
They've paid NC nothing. The damage portion of the award was struck down by an Appellate court in Korea. The matter is still before the courts in Korea - even though the game has launched there.
Alright then I guess that site I read have been giving me misleading info. If the matter is still going on in Korea, that just makes this even more stupid. I don't understand how they would be able to release the game then in korea, but I suppose they have funny laws there.
Did you read the actual legal document? It doesn't even say anything about code. What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.
Unfortunately, technically the did steal the work. NCsoft pays for their programs and employees to even get the game off the ground. To allow them to take Tera and walk out the door is a huge investment NCsoft just lost.
Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.
Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it? You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...
Yeah I read it. The parts with the 7 races, the map, combat system and political system. I don't know if those documents really have a saying, like I've seen MMO's that have features like that already. Those documents is like seeing some ideas for a game that should have been released 5 years ago.
Yus, it is. But if you're prone to doing so, you're better off not signing that contract.
Because they are criminals? It would seem that this was planned and executed whilst they work working at NCsoft.
Exactly. As I've said before, I work in a factory. I'm nobody special, just an hourly schmoe. But I had to sign a contract when I started here that says I can't work for my employer's competition for 7 years after I leave this place IN ANY CAPACITY. Not because I create stuff, but because I might have seen how stuff we have created is made.
And that's just to cover all bases. US trademark and copyright laws are strict. It's possible that, even if these guys didn't sign a contract, they could be found guilty here as well. WIth a contract, it's trademark infringement. Without one, it could be espionage if the lawyers handle it in a certain way.
I do have to wonder, though, if US courts have jurisdiction if Blue Hole chooses not to operate on American soil and instead opens English servers in Korea? Our courts aren't exactly known for their understanding of the 21st century digital age.
Are you sure? Just because that's how NCSoft chose to spin the situation? I haven't seen anything resembling evidence of that, or even specifics as to what they stole. Just a document that comes off more like vindictive hyperbole than anything else.
Oh I know full well about craftsmanship and creating. I'm a composer.
Now the thing is, if I create something for someone I make sure that it's something that I'm "ok" with giving away.
If someone asks me to write them a piece I'm not going to write them something that I will later use in something else.
What these creators are asked to do is to brainstorm and use their experience to create assets for their employer. That's their job.
Anything they create they need to be comfortable parting with it. If for some reason they come up with amazing ideas that they don't want NC to have they need to leave the company and depending on their non-compete agreement, proceed in a way that is lawful.
The point is, if you want to be a professional you have to act like a professional. Because one can act however one wants but after a while that will come back to bite you in the butt.
If one doesn't like the terms of a contract then don't sign it. It's as simple as that.
Tera will never release if what NcSoft is claiming ios true. Bluehole very well could be going to prison for theft.
Apparently Bluehole employees where former NcSoft Employees who where working on Lineage 3. They basically quit NcSoft, took the material of Lineage 2 , some software and other NcSoft property to start up Bluehole. EnMasse are idiots for not checking the complete timeline and start up of Bluehole , and now they to could be liable.
I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.
EME is made up of former NCsoft/NCwest employees. They knew what they were doing.
Not completely sure. Technically they are 'convicted criminals' they have also lost an appeal. The way I read it the damages where somewhat mitigated but they where found guilty (again). Apparently (according to one of the articles, I only read the US documents not the Korean ones) they where having clandestine meetings in the board room to poach other employees too. Presumably some blew the whistle on them.
You're right, we haven't seen any contract. But we do know some things, such as the Korean court system initially siding with NCSoft both civilly and criminally. Non-compete agreements are standard practice, if NCSoft chose not have thier employees sign one, that is their problem, but there are still trademark laws that will cover parts of that oversight.
We're not experts. We're just educated.
But we all stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night
No need. A Korean court did that, found them guilty and sentenced them to prison.
Actually, if you read the complain they filed, it stated that the Korean police the a list of file that they were taken from NCSoft offices using portable storage devices. They even have a BHS internal memo instructing how to deal with those assets. They have ex-NCSoft developers now work for BHS admitted to the police that they stole stuffs from NCSoft.
And BHS lost the criminal court twice already. BHS founder is in jail. Heh, what more do you need?
There's no doubt that BHS stole a lot from Lineage 3 project. But that will be resolved in criminal case.
What interested me is how can NCSoft prove to the US court that TERA is using Lineage 3 project assets. It's not easy to do so. That's why the fight is still going on in Korea. We will see how it goes in the US though.
No, and I dont' believe anyone is creating line by line reasons why any particular articles have been broken.
But people who have worked for companies that do require non-compete agreements or require you to fill out forms with all of your former patents/publicatons are just giving their experiences with this type of stuff. Naturally, this stuff is different from country to county.
So, by all means, if you have actual experience with similar agreements then feel free to add to the conversation.
Im not looking forward to TERA or GW2 but it sounds like NCSoft is striking at them because they fear tera will cobble upplayers before GW2 will. Its a low blow IMO.
Goddamn it, NCwest is the most useless company i ever had to deal with. The way they handle stuff managed to piss me off when i playd l2 and when i playd Aion.
I remeber when i playd aion and if you asked about something specific you got the answear soon, that was all those useless twats managed to give out, every post had the word soon or in the future. wtf i could already guess soon or in the future myself.
I suddenly lost the will to play Tera but i think the combat will lure me in if only for a brief time
Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.
The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.
Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.
The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.
Seems someone actually is updated. )
Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.
What if you were under a company making music, and you had signed a contract with them, and you just made some of your greastest work of life, but the company wanted to take your music in another dirrection, would you be fine with that? Even when you had strong connection to that project.
We don't know what actually were written in their contract when they were under NCsoft, but I would be surprised that a contract would be very one-sided and not take the creative work of their people under consideration.
Ncsoft would lose because the casting animation would take 5 secs and they would be rooted while casting. TERA wins.
Actually, some of us have read the lawsuit, so I don't know where either of you are getting your information, the documents spell everything out very clearly. Below is where they say not only concepts were stolen, but software, hardware, and proprietary data. It's also pointed out that, when confronted by authorities, BH admitted to the theft and tried to hide it and cover their tracks by wiping the computers, a crime on its own but it also shows they knew full well what they were doing.
What actually happened with the first case:
What BH admitted to:
As to what NCSoft is able to prove, that's not something any of us would know for sure unless we were part of the case. However, considering several were convicted - even if all of them didn't end up in jail - I'd say they're able to prove plenty.
EDIT: Links fixed, my bad.
Read my post again, I actually said that they stole Lineage 3 data :P
It doesn't matter. When you sign a contract and work for someone (by the way, the contracts signed upon both entering work with NCSoft and leaving are detailed in the court documents) you are creating work FOR THEM. I'm a commission artist and regularly develop both 2d art and 3d assets for people and have run across the situation you just mentioned, many times. But it doesn't matter. I didn't create it for me, it was a paid service, therefore it's not mine, it belongs to the person who paid me to create it. I don't get to turn around and say "Oh, but it came out so pretty!" and do whatever I like with it afterward. That's not the way real life works.
It is no where near as clear cut as this. We'll have to see what the Supreme Court has to say. That will be the final determinant.
Letyson, that's how it works. That's what being a professional in a creative field is about.
Here's one, you are an artist and graphic designer and you are hired to create assets for a company and you do the best work of your life. It still belongs to the company. If they look at your work and say "you know, I lik it but it needs more cowbell" then you do it.
that's really how it works.
edit: the trick is to weigh what you want to create for your employer and what you want to keep for yourself.
It is called Plagerism guys and it is very serious. If you do it in school you get expelled. If you do it at work you get fired and if a company does it they get hit with lawsuits. There is no doubt about the guilt here. TERA is Lingeage 3 the Stolen Project. BHS got caught red handed.
Well... maybe NCsoft can prove it, if they find compelling evidence that is.
Did the guy at BHS take the soruce code = yes
Was it returned = yes
Does the Dev have the right to continue work in his field = yes
Was Tera Developed after the codes were returned = yes
Does NCsoft have to prove that the orginial code was being used in Tera = yes
Has NCsoft proven that tera uses the code = no
Plagerism has to be proven, something NCsoft has not done during the 5 years of tera's development. They did not try to stop the game from being launched in Korea, Japan, or all the EU contries. You got to question why only NA.
IF I recall correctly they did sue TERA in Korea.
Judging by the majority of the responses in this and other threads, NcSoft has done an amazing job of spinning the situation. They seem to have convinced people that Tera contains material from Lineage 3 and that a Korean court backed them up, but that simply isn't true.
There were two allegations against K-Tera
1- Tera contained material that belonged to NcSoft. Case didn't go anywhere, and since then NcSoft hasn't made another move to shut down K-Tera.
2- Material belonging to NcSoft was taken and in the possession of EM/BH. Case was successful, 5 people were given jail time, and a fine was levied against the company along with orders to destroy the material and not use it. Damages were overturned on appeal, case is still pending.
So contrary to what popularly seems to be believed, it has never been demonstrated that Tera actually contains any material belonging to NcSoft. In fact given their close call with an injunction, and pending damages just for having the material in their possession, they would have to be INSANE to actually use the material in Tera.
Seeing as I work in a field were you have to sign non-competition agreements or not get hired, I will say this. They are frivalous and usually end up getting thrown out of court in the US. In other countries they don't, but in the US many have tried to use them against employess and failed. NCSoft hopefully isnt going to go into this battle with just that against them or they will lose. BTW, in the US non-competition agreements go against ammendment rights that is why they get thrown out. Read through one and you will see.
This ^^. I have had to sign them too. And have taken them to lawyers and they said the same thing. They don't hold up....
Very bad release date due to a possible GW2 release in April, May this year.
Wish you guys the best, the starting concept was very nice - tho the nerves (no aiming anymore etc) shoo'ed me away.
Good luck guys n gals !
This court case won't hold up in court. Ncsoft has been after BHS for 5 years now and they still have not been able to prove anything. Non of the cases have been proven, and they are now before the supreme court in Korea.
To be honest, NCsoft is scared. Their once mighty empire is slowly crumbling, due to their horrible working conditions. Most of their good talent is leaving by the droves.
Not only did 90 emplyees leave NCsoft to form BHS, but many others have left as well. Even Jake Song left with 100 employers to form XL Games.
So this really has nothing to do with TERA. It's everything to scare NCsoft emplyees from leave to go to other companies.
At first, I thought BHS sounded kind of scummy too, but after reading up on the details, I realized that was premature. I agree, it sounds a lot more like NCSoft is just upset that so many employees left. They probably wish they could have the deserters put to death for their disloyalty, but that doesn't actually make them criminals.
Quite the reverse they have proven their case... twice in fact. The only thing that was mitigated at appeal was the potential damages. the defendednds where however found guilty (again). Prison sentences and fines where handed out. BHS are guilty and the 3 in question are convicted criminals.
I don't know how you can say that nothing has been proven, quite the reverse. I dunno how anyone can look at what has been presented and not conclude that they are a bunch of thieves.
*sigh* Here we go again...
Those people were convicted because they stole the code and wanted to sell it to another company, it was never proved that TERA has part of the code in it. NCsoft can only stop TERA if they find evidence that the Lineage 3 code was used for TERA but their lawsuit barely even mentions the Lineage 3 code.
Edit: If they had the evidence they would make it clear in the lawsuit that TERA has part of the Lineage 3 code, but they are merely trying to sue TERA for using similar concepts.
A few people were convicted, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with BHS or Tera. I haven't seen any indication of any correlation at all. Aside from NCSoft's vague implications and guilt by association. This is if you're even willing to put that much faith in the Korean legal system.
This.
Of course the high court could overturn it all but that seems pretty unlikely.
Sure when did I say anything else? They are still criminals. Stealing stuff is criminal regardless of whether they used it or not. As you say the remaning issue is of course determining if it was used in Terra and deciding if there is consequential loss. I do hold an opinion on that but have not really stated it. It's a much trickier thing to adjudicate. I am not one of the guys saying Terra is doomed or even that it will be delayed. I am simply saying the guys are convicted criminals which they are.
NCsoft is Jelly.
I hope they dont try anything stupid with ANet and GW2
Yes those 3 people were criminals and have been convicted already so they have already been punished alright?
That part is over.
I said that in order to stop TERA thay need to prove that part of the Lineage 3 code was used to make TERA so what you are saying doesn't matter. The 3 people stole it and were sentenced but the code hasn't been found in the game.
Edit: so i'm glad we all understand it.
well those guys are no longer part of ncsoft and they have pursuit with the new project which is beyond control of the previous company.. literally they have no ownership with the idea as they have not provided any means of resources. honestly i dont think video games have patents anymore as they fall in a general criteria so basically we are talking about generic video games so anyone could actually copy any games unless certain mmo is completely unique like blade and soul/tera online... lineage definitely doesn't fall to the criteia.
Apart from the fact that Anet is a branch of NCsoft so that would be trying to boycott their own product?