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EVE Online News - GDC 2010: Fighting RMT
Posted by Michael Bitton on Mar 12, 2010 | 117 comments in our forums
MMORPG.com Managing Editor Jon Wood reports on a lecture at this year's Game Developers Conference given by EVE Online's Lead Economist Dr. Eyjo on how CCP fights RMT in EVE Online.
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The Game Developers Conference always gives reporters like those of us at MMORPG.com the opportunity to meet up with a large number of developers at the same time to conduct interviews and take part in demonstrations. So much so that we occasionally lose scope on the fact that this show is actually about developers getting together to share their successes and failures with one another all in the hopes of making the games industry that much stronger.
It is with that in mind that we sat in on a lecture given by EVE Online’s Lead Economist, affectionately known as Dr. Eyjo. While we’re most used to hearing the good doctor (PhD, not MD) talk directly about the game’s economy, today he was talking about Real Money Traders and the various strategies that CCP has been using to combat them.
Read GDC 2010: Fighting RMT.
I found it very interesting that such a small part of the population could cause such a large strain on the servers CPU. Glad to see the real money traders being banned, as doing so apparently makes the game perform better for legitimate players.
It's a Microsoft SQL database.
There are no miracles in space.
CCP has a good grasp of the effects of RMT and I do believe their policies have reduced the trade and driven it more underground.
Add in the players campaign to suicide gank miners on a regular basis and life has to be difficult for the botting farmer.
The result, EVE's economy remains largely in control of the player base and not at the mercy of the farmers.
Good thing they removed that ridiculous Spiider post or this thread would end up a rebuttal of those absurd ideas.
Anyone thinking that the RMT providers don't engage in illicit activities should ask the holders of all those hacked accounts in Wow.
I think CCP has a better handle on this problem than most developers. Take Aion for example, it is still filled with bots despite NCSoft's claims.
Eve is particularly sensitive to this because the entire economy is based on player input.
many other dev have to learn from ccp
+1
Despite what they want you to believe, EVE is still filled with bots.
Despite what they want you to believe, EVE is still filled with bots.
No more than any other game.
"CCP has seen their CPU dropped 30% for the 2% of the population that was banned"
The grammar is a bit hard to follow, but is he saying that 2% of the population was causing 30% of the CPU usage?
not sure myself, but if that 2 percent was running bots 23/7 then that perhaps would account for the 'distorted' useage figures, i mean, i consider myself to be a fairly active player, but i doubt i play more than 15 hours a week at the very most... quite often considerably less... i dont know how much time the average player spends online, but even if its 30 hours a week, thats still only about 1/6th of the amount of time a single bot does, or if their like me only about 1/12th so eliminating these farmers from the game, would i suppose have a greater impact than that of an 'average' player. Still, have to hand it to CCP, they really do their best to look after their players - real ones at least
CCP has never denied the existence of bots. They also never said that Unholy rage removed all bots or even a majority of them.
They have always claimed it to be an ongoing struggle.
I trust the other developers present at the conference LEARNED SOMETHING from this talk (looks at Blizzard).
CCP's answer to the problems of isk farming affecting the game's economy was....(drum roll) take it over themselves via Plex, thereby getting their own players to farm the isk that gets swapped for the GTCs bought from CCP.
I can't even think of a word to describe that kind of strategy from a company towards their own players. Machiavellian might be close enough for horseshoes, though.
Despite what they want you to believe, EVE is still filled with bots.
Proof or it didn't happen.
Yeah, the claim is made constantly, but little in the way of proof. Not saying they are all gone, and their primary focus is on people who resell ISK outside of the GTC system, which I think they have made great strides against.
effective comes to mind : 0
Pretty much, most of the subscribers are alt accounts used as macro miners to support the few pvpers or the isk sellers. CCP saying they're fighting RMT is pretty much another crock from them. CCP have turned EVE into one giant RMT business for them, encouraging multiple accounts and botting.
I have friends playing EVE now that have multiple accounts running macro miners which they use to pay for plex and buy items in game and make real life cash. They use the same company to buy the macro programs and that company updates them for free after each patch. CCP knows the company and has a copy of the macro programs but if they stopped them their CPU usage would drop by alot more so they don't. They pretend to be doing something whilst encouraging macro mining, they say they banned 30k accounts 2 years ago? They said none of their developers had been helping corps or alliances cheat until they were caught red handed and it was exposed they'd swept it under the rug 8 months earlier! So really their word ain't worth squat.
You need proof? If you play the game have a look with your own eyes, most of the large alliances have their own protected macro mining systems in 0.0 and the rest use safer space to do it. Less profitable but it can easily be enough to pay for your game and earn some cash. CCP is like the Federal reserve, they need money they spawn more rocks! It all comes back into their pockets one way or another. People mine it, buy plex (game cards) and then sell them in real life for cash. People want isk so they buy the plex cards in real life for cash and sell it on for ISK or in game items John Smedley is no doubt kicking himself he didn't do this in SWG before he screwed it up!
The entire game is an RMT trading card game now, nothing more with CCP pretending they're fighting it all. It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach personally.
Machiavellianism is also a term that some social and personality psychologists use to describe a person's tendency to deceive and manipulate others for personal gain. Suggestive of or characterized by expediency, deceit, and cunning.
How does this cover CCP?
They have taken the RMT model (selling ingame currency to less 'time agreeable' players, and in return, instead of asking for $$$ for currency they have enabled a model that allows one player to pay $$$ for gametime and sell it for ingame currency, thus allowing players with lots of time to turn their excess ingame currency into free play time, Company is simply gaining a monthly payment that the Time rich player would normally have made and allowing the Time poor player to keep playing without quitting because he cant make money
Proof or it didn't happen.
Ill give proof but you know google is your friend
.Search for " open source ripper eve " without qoutes .Eve has every kind of bots you can imagine , ratting bots /mining bots /mission bots/trade bots
If you're going to get so sick you should think about knowing why. Unholy Rage was less than a year ago and it's effects are well documented. If you play often and long enough, you know bot's are a problem. You also have a fairly good idea how they operate. A few Null sec players will use miner bots, but only the stupid ones. Smart Null sec players will set up a mission running alt. The only players that really use miners are isk sellers. Like I said, you play enough and see why things happen the way they do. Miner and mission macro's work much the same way, but the miner bot's have limitations and are easy to spot, both for other players and CCP. It's simply not possible to mine like everyone else using a bot, and it takes much longer. They really have to run all day after day, doing the same thing over and over to be profitable. According to CCP many isk farmers have even stopped using them in favor of missions.
So 30.000 last year (before FFest) and as this interview indicates, you can probably count on it this year too. Seems to me CCP is doing as much as anyone out there. Especially, when you consider GTC's. Yes it is a problem and anyone who plays often enough can spot it, but maybe you should think about taking the tin foil hat off.
If you're going to get so sick you should think about knowing why. Unholy Rage was less than a year ago and it's effects are well documented. If you play often and long enough, you know bot's are a problem. You also have a fairly good idea how they operate. A few Null sec players will use miner bots, but only the stupid ones. Smart Null sec players will set up a mission running alt. The only players that really use miners are isk sellers. Like I said, you play enough and see why things happen the way they do. Miner and mission macro's work much the same way, but the miner bot's have limitations and are easy to spot, both for other players and CCP. It's simply not possible to mine like everyone else using a bot, and it takes much longer. They really have to run all day after day, doing the same thing over and over to be profitable. According to CCP many isk farmers have even stopped using them in favor of missions.
So 30.000 last year (before FFest) and as this interview indicates, you can probably count on it this year too. Seems to me CCP is doing as much as anyone out there. Especially, when you consider GTC's. Yes it is a problem and anyone who plays often enough can spot it, but maybe you should think about taking the tin foil hat off.
Well I respectfuly disagree with your opinion on the matter, my experiences have taught me otherwise. CCP are like the goverment that says well crack dealers are a problem and cause crime so we're putting them out of business by legalising crack and selling it ourselves as the only legal vendor. It doesn't cut down on the problem of crack in fact it increases crime, addiction and misery ten fold no doubt. What it does do is cut out the crack dealer and pulls in the goverment a nice profit.
That is what CCP has done, cut out the middle man and caused proliferation of RMT by making it legal through them. If they cracked down on botting it would damage their own business now, they'd be putting themselves out of business since people would close their multiple accounts and stop buying plex with isk and eventually quit.
Take away a crack head's source of income to purchase the drug be it through crime or not then he has to go cold turkey like it or not and he'll quit. Why would a dealer do that? Why would CCP do that to plex heads? It makes no sense.
As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence.
In short CCP does nothing but encourage proliferation of RMT and have turned EVE into a F2P RMT space mining simulator. The PvP era in EVE has been long gone since the ushering in of the plex era!
To believe anything else in my opinion is NAIEVE!
I think CCP did the only smart thing.
1. Mass banning of botters
2. Kill third-party RMT through their own PLEX-model that really does not have that much impact on the game's economy
3. Adds a benefit to longtime subscribers by offering them an indirect way to benefit from new subscribers
4. Stabilizes the market and adds more value to items in general.
Making ISK is really easy in this game and no doubt most PLEX are sold by new gamers trying to get into their first battleships.
Of course there are going to be botters left, they are never going to go away. However, RMT botters were the reason for majority of negative aspects seem pretty dead. I have not checked for few months, but it was not that long time ago that it was actually cheaper to buy a plex and sell it online than purchase gold from a major RMT company.
I make 1.5 - 3 billion ISK a month when I am not really playing. Just logging on an checking my orders, research, inventions and manufacturing 3-4 times a week. Each time takes about 10 minutes. The PLEX sales has very little influence on my game. If anything, it supports my sales and market activities. Prices have stabilized and are less inflated. More rookie pilots can afford ships, implants and modules legally. Changes CCP has made have been very positive.
Well I respectfuly disagree with your opinion on the matter, my experiences have taught me otherwise. CCP are like the goverment that says well crack dealers are a problem and cause crime so we're putting them out of business by legalising crack and selling it ourselves as the only legal vendor. It doesn't cut down on the problem of crack in fact it increases crime, addiction and misery ten fold no doubt. What it does do is cut out the crack dealer and pulls in the goverment a nice profit.
That is what CCP has done, cut out the middle man and caused proliferation of RMT by making it legal through them. If they cracked down on botting it would damage their own business now, they'd be putting themselves out of business since people would close their multiple accounts and stop buying plex with isk and eventually quit.
Take away a crack head's source of income to purchase the drug be it through crime or not then he has to go cold turkey like it or not and he'll quit. Why would a dealer do that? Why would CCP do that to plex heads? It makes no sense.
As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence.
In short CCP does nothing but encourage proliferation of RMT and have turned EVE into a F2P RMT space mining simulator. The PvP era in EVE has been long gone since the ushering in of the plex era!
To believe anything else in my opinion is NAIEVE!
So CCP is like corrupt government crack dealers, and EVE is a F2P mining simulator……Hmmm Think I’m just going to let that stand on it’s own merit.
Of all established mmorpgs I've played I am the least bothered by bots in EVE. There mights still be a lot around but they don' t annoy me as in; they aren't farming the same resources as I do and they aren't 'in your face' so much. In WOW and other games, they prey on the resources you need to make gold, to complete missions or gain standings and you encounter them everywhere you go. Not so in EVE; they are mainly out in belts where I have no reason to go anyway as a mission runner and if I would it would look like just another miner to me.
Server load, funding evil RMT companies and negative affects on economy are secondary consequences which shouldn't be underestimated though. But I am just happy that bots aren't a daily annoyance to me in EVE like in other games I've played.
"As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence"
Here we go again, way off the deep end, conspiracy theories enveloping the ether. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but any intelligent being knows what you wrote is complete nonsense. Anyone thinking CCP helps out alliances has lost it. You probably have bought the Brooklyn bridge multiple times.
Sure there are bots in EVE, just like any other MMO, I have to agree with the article that CCP does a far better job containing them, then most MMO teams. Try playing a NCSoft title sometime if you want to see the difference.
If you don't like EVE or CCP don't play their game, but please keep your Orwellian theories to yourself .
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
Dude gives us a break already that cheating shit happened years ago and its long forgotten by the people that matter.
As for your criticisms of Eves Plex system If AV decided to let players farm currency for free game time in DF you would be doing back flips so hush.
I'm all for well informed debate and what not, but looking at the article, the date 9 February 2007 10:36 am, stands out at the top. Since that incident I believe various mechanisms and oversight have been implemented to attempt to prevent this in the future. Now, as we compare EvE's battle against RMT to other games, we can look no further then WoW to see another game where a GM interrefered to the benefit of a guild. I don't remember the exact parties involved and will try to update it, but basically a GM mailed a guild master a weapon that basically one-shots anything. Now certainly, the architecture and economy of WoW would not be so impacted as a single-shard game, but that is not really the point. Shit happens and individuals make mistakes. So long as the company attempts to address the mistakes of the individuals then they are on the right track.
Probably eve is different from ncsoft titles and botters separetad to thousands systems and this is giving an illusion to people ?Best place to see macroers ice belts /belts certain low sec systems with agents giving hauling missions (go check arzi /ingunn /Jovainnon known places , ppl bored to killing macroers even dont shoot them now )
www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp
www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp
CCP should ban players who buy ISK with real money on the first offense. That will make players think twice about buying isk.
And then put a banner or something on their website, where it's clearly visible, saying : you will be banned the first time we catch you buying ISK! or something like that XD
Shit does happen, all that happened was that on that occasion they were caught. Most long term players know it happened alot in the past especially at player events where some of the most obvious and vulgar cheating happened and it still continues. Just because someone hasn't been caught doesn't mean they didn't do it and on average a criminal has got away with 6 crimes before he's caught for one.
Saying it was one guy that got caught 3 years ago and it never happened before or since is very naive, long term players have witnessed it on many occaisions just that someone wasn't able to expose them like that guy.
If Aventurine started a similar system as with plex I'd leave because you'd need massive safe zones like EVE to make it profitable and allow the use of 23hr botting for both sides to make it work. It would turn Darkfall into a F2P RMT carebear turd and I'd be gone.
The issue isn't about my game or your game it's about an obviously corrupt company that was caught in the past telling me about how they're trying to stamp out botting and RMT when they're the main dealers in buying/selling ISK and refuse to stop the botting when they could.
It's like Bill Gates saying he wants to reduce the sales of Windows 7 and stamp it out and keep windows XP as the most popular operating system. It just doesn't make sense and his actions say otherwise.
If CCP stopped the botting today they would sell alot less plex and lose alot of money and subscribers reducing the subscribed accounts by atleast half. Why would they do that? Myself I don't care but when they make statements to the press about how they're trying to put themselves out of business and people believe it I feel the need to speak out.
I don't think anyone has really said cheating has never/will never happen. As I said, CCP has set up internal mechanics to try to prevent the possiblity and impact. Will it be 100% effective, probably not, but I haven't really noticed a significant blunder since that incident. There are still people involved in the process after all. That said, DF is no less susceptible. Neither is WoW or any other game that has to put faith in their employees.
Despite the cheating incident, I think CCP is pretty forthright with their customer base. This is not the perception of a new comer to the game. I haven't played as long as some, but I've been playing a little while and followed the game for about a year before starting up (curse all that SP I missed out on :P). I was not directly impacted by the t20 deal so perhaps that plays into my view of the incident and CCPs behavior since.
I not sure I get the leap in logic that stopping botting will lead to half of the games accounts leaving due to reduced sales of PLEX. That seems like an awfully opinion based assumption more so then a sound theory at this point. My line of thinking (read: opinion based assumption) would be that bots would be consumers of PLEX and therefore, a reduced demand for PLEX in game would reduce the price some resulting in more people being able to afford it and potentially more people bring alts online as a result. As with the EvE economy, the imbalance would sort out sooner or later, but I don't see it triggering a mass exodus.
Ultimately, I'm not out to change your mind. I just disagree with your assessment
I have to agree with Agricola here, I play eve and run 2 accounts and very much enjoy the game. I also pay for my game time by buying plexes as I make enough isk in-game.
But, realistically, PLEX system is nothing other then a RMT shop and probably the worst kind because you are not limited to buying fluff items with your real cash, like in many other games. The only reason there is no outcry is because older and generally more vocal players are profitting from it. I like the system because I have had times when Eve bored me and in teh past I used ghost training to keep my character learning. Now when I get bored of EVE I just make enough isk to buy a few months of PLEXes and set a long skill. Log back in after 25-30 days, change to another skill and wait until I get the urge to play again.
It is an RMT shop pure and simple, it gives RL rich people an adavantage (this is generally the problem with RMT), but I like it because I dont PVP and am not competitive in-game so it doesnt bother me - I get to train and play for free. If you are competitive then it will probably annoy you, especially if you are into industry as you can raise the initial capital quicker by selling plexes and probably make your money back quicker then it takes someone to grind all the isk to get their industry operation going.
CCP knows this and that is probably why they are doing all th ePR in th eopposite direction. Its a smart thing to do and considering what they are investing all that money into (Incarna and Planetary Interaction) I cant say I want them to change.
What is the advantage? Instant ISK? They can't train to use ships or weapons any faster then the less rich player so how are they getting an unfair advantage. If anything, it levels the field between those who can spend hours grinding for isk and those who can't play as often.
The alternative is an unregulated system like we see across the industry right? We see in other games the results and they generally include a large number of compromised accounts it seems. If anything else, keeping this in house and typing it to account time is a pretty unique and, in my opinion, smart approach.
Now if I could buy a "potion of super fast xp getting" or "blaster of one-shotting a battle ship", then I could agree that it would be quite a different story.
But again, purely my opinion. I've heard people say it's bad and people say it's great. I fall somewhere on the "pretty decent" side of the fence so just trying to understand the other point of view while trying to articulate mine.
Dude the money you get from selling a plex is about the same a level 4 mission runner could make in a day or two of farming.
Its put in place for three reasons to kill off third party RMT, Help causals make a bit of isk if they can't log in all day and to give people that may not have cash to pay for a sub a way to do that through gameplay.
I see no problem with this. 275mill per plex is nothing.
You have no proof that CCP has done anything since.
So why bother crying about it?
I also consider it a "pretty decent" solution but there are advantages to rl rich players.
Isk is not totally instant as it takes time to sell the plexes but if you were agressive with the prices you could raise alot of isk quickly. You are right that your skills grow at a certain pace but you do reach a point where you have skills to do things and not enough isk to be able to. Grinding enough money to buy and equip a Marauder for example will take you months but ok having one is no big deal really. However having a carrier or a freighter or buying towers, and other starbase structures is a huge investment in the billions of isk. Such capital investements help drastically increase your isk earning potential in Eve and buying them by selling Plexes can be the best approach. Generally this is done by corporations and a few people working together but now you dont really have to do it that way, you can solo.
Also lets say an alliance had its fleet destroyed while defending its space, would you not in desparation resort to asking corp members to sell a few PLEXes to replenish (of course infrastructure permitting).
Not to mention what it can do to the free market that eve is so proud of, but that is very complex and I probably don't understand all the intricacies.
Instant was a poor choice of wording I suppose. With good pricing you do stand to make a chunk of ISK quickly and that's what I was trying to relay. Since everyone tends to earn ISK at a different rate, I'm not really going to say it would be quick or slow to purchase a certain ship and fit it out. PLEX does go a ways toward equalizing the time between players who can grind versus those who don't have the time, but naturally that implies that the more casual player can afford the PLEX so there is certainly a financial assumption. But, how is that different then the financial assumption made by them going to an unregulated source of ISK purchasing? Alternately, you could see PLEX as a way for a less-fortunate player to be able to afford to play at all. So, rather then conferring an advantage solely to the well-off player, it also provides opportunity to others.
Going back to the original idea a bit, PLEX and having it tied to game time seems like a very good approach to mitigating the impact of farmers/botters. Alone, it certainly isn't a silver bullet, but as part of a more comprehensive approach, I think it is a strong piece of the puzzle.
Ok I think that we are discussing slightly different things, your point is if I am understanding correctly that RMT in itself might equalize the playing field between casuals and players with more time. While I use RMT in a sense that I want people to sell PLEXes so I can play for free, I generally consider it a bad thing for a number of reasons that I dont really want to get into here.
I was considering how EVE's approach may or may not be problematic for EVE and what happens in game as a result. Whether RMT in general equalizes things I am not sure. But I do feel that it creates imbalances within the world of Eve, however, whether creating those imbalances is justified by equalizing the playing field for casuals is a tricky question. I would probably be on the "no it doesn't side", if its decided that players who invest more time in playing the game are somehow disadvantaged in relation to those who don't play as much but have rl money to buy things.
put simply - those who play more, smarter and harder should not have it eroded by outside of the game influences
One of the points I got form your previous post was that rich people had an advantage under the plex system. My argument would be that people with more time benefit from the plex system, people who otherwise cannot afford/justify the monthly sub benefit, and those who have spare cash benefit.
Being as the PLEX system is available to all, I don't think it creates a significant imbalance in the game as it has become a part of the market and we don't generally see significant fluctuations (PLEX aid for Haiti might be an exception as sales might have peaked).
My overall point is that PLEX is a good tool, as part of a larger set of tools, for trying to fight RMT. Obviously it is not perfect and no company has yet found a perfect solution. I imagine DF might be pretty good as there is no, or at least very little, safe area for a gold seller to do their business. That would be a significant change in mechanics for any other game though and would drift away from what those games are trying to be, so I don't think that is a viable industry wide solution.
I tend to look at things more in a positive light.
Plex lets players in this tough economic time play an amazing mmo for free and it lets limited time players enjoy a slight bump in currency to go along with their offline skill training.
We can bitch all day about Rich rl players having unlimited income but when it comes down to it, the amount of Isk or skills a player has means nothing in Eve if you suck.
Situation:
Well the way I see it is that to purchase in game ISK I buy a game time card from CCP and convert it into plex and sell it for ISK or any other item I wish. So CCP isn't directly selling ISK but is selling me the means with which to purchase it utilising the system they have built into their game for this very purpose.
So we have CCP using a rather convoluted system with which to sell ISK. You purchase game time from us and you can turn it into plex in game and sell it for ISK or trade it for items with other players.
Next is the guy that's purchasing, I go to a website and download a macro mining or mission programme. I purchase 3 EVE accounts and set them off 23/7 macro mining or running missions or ratting. With the proceeds I can easily get enough ISK in a week or two to pay for my 3 bots and my fourth main account and pay to equip it for PvP. All I need to do is each patch download the bot update, CCP will not prevent you from botting unless you brag about it in local or on their forums.
EDIT: Forgot to mention the practice of purchasing plex and selling it for RL money with this system just incase it passed you by.
So the customer is using bots to buy plex for all his accounts and pay to equip out the main char.
CCP action:
OK so CCP aren't doing anything against botting other than talk. If CCP stopped the botting they would sell atleast 50% less plex, why?
Atleast half of the entire EVE population is alts used for botting, ask someone who's been playing a few years. I've known guys running 16 botting accounts, 50% is a small number in my opinion it's probably more but I'll say half for the sake of argument. Those bots are banned then they don't need plex for them, there are less customers for plex so less people purchase it from CCP resulting in CCP lose money.
Conclusion:
In short the bottom would drop out of the market for plex. CCP would lose a minimum of half of it's income, so why would they do that? They don't of course but they put on a smoke and mirrors show for gamers because RMT and botting is frowned upon in P2P games universaly.
Also if those bots were taken away today the amazing EVE economy that CCP gets so moist about advertising would crash and have hyper inflation that would make Zimbabwe's economy look like a capatalist utopia! Something all those egg heads talking about analyzing the EVE market never consider, it's like credit in a real economy but EVE will just keep it going. Stamping out the botters would burst the bubble and the game would die.
CCP could do alot more against botting but it'd wreck their RMT system and have dtrimental effects on the in game economy and subscription levels. So they don't, they have all the bot programs and could easily have a third party program checking for it but don't.
My problem:
My problem isn't with EVE or the people that use the system. You like EVE and enjoy buying/selling plex and botting? Fine by me. My problem is when a bunch of suits from a company come along and try playing us all for a bunch of dumb saps. CCP lost all their credibility 3 years ago and this proves they still have none today. Telling me they're against RMT and macro mining/mission running/ratting and are doing their best to stop it. It makes me angry being treated like a child by these twerps who've gotten away with cheating everyone in EVE many times before.
If they just admit they're running a the most successful RMT in any MMORPG right now and frown on botting but don't want to be too heavy handed with it then fine. But telling me they're whiter than white (again) and are against the evil RMT and are doing their best to rid the server of the evil botters is just taking the ****!
Man.... Your just an angry and unhappy dude.
Damn...
Reading your posts are depressing, another player that will never be happy and takes shit way too personal.
One CCP misstep and the inclusion of Plex to help reduce third party Rmt and you feel like its a direct slap in the face? Chill out.
Lets remember these are games shall we?
I don't play anything other then Eve so could't comment on how it could work in other games. I agree that it is not an industry wide solution if for so many different games there can be an industry wide solution. I would think as many games use many different mechanics the solution should be sought outside of the game and not by adjusting things in-game.
Eve as far as I understand is built on the premise of competition, whether it is trade, industry, space holding, pvp and introducing systems which erode or make this basic premise not true can be problematic in the long term. You ask yourself as a player what is the point if someone can just buy what i worked for ingame and nullify my advantage.
Effectively CCP is saying - RMT will happen so lets control it by implementing it ourselves, I would argue against that approach for reasons already mentioned. They need to work towards gaining more control over what happens in game in order to spot and eliminate RMT, and to be fair they are also doing that. Large transfers of isk are looked at , etc. That for me is a good way but there are probably others also.
Rockgodd I am not taking it personally in any way, i am not a competitive eve player, I am am a carebear living in a C6 wormhole running my industry operation and paying for my alts with PLEX. I enjoy Eve very much :)
Agricola1, you've generally made some intelligent posts in the past, but you are doing what you would find fault with others doing. Your numbers are not backed up by anything and we have CCP that has published numbers detailing multiple account holders and such. From my recollection, they directly contradict what you are saying. Now, if you can post the sources of your information, by all means, I would not be able to find any fault with your assumptions then. Until such time, you are telling me the sky is falling when, by all indications, that is not the case.
So, lets look at the fact you think CCP is playing everyone for fools. What do they gain? This is a conference where developers can talk amongst each other and not really a marketing campaign. in addition to this, the material discussed seems to be more a summary of what EvE has done and are doing and not something that says "hey we fixed all RMT eva!!!". Instead it seems to confer that they are working on an ongoing issue which is a very practical approach. If we look at it, a subject matter expert spoke about virtual economies and methods they've implemented to combat unregulated RMT. This is not "whiter then white" and doesn't seem to profess to be. I guess it just a matter of interpretation...
Im sorry bro i wasn't targeting you. Damn thing wouldnt quote the intended poster. sorry
This is where I think we'll end up going in circles. I don't believe someone can just buy what I worked for. If I am a miner, they need to train up to the same ship, mining lasers, and crystals I am using which takes the same amount of time assuming same attribute mapping and implants. If I am industry, they still need a POS and production lines to work with. So maybe they can use PLEX to pay for POS fuel, minerals, and such, but I can accomplish similar working with my corp. They also still need to train skills for the same amount of time. PvP, training skills for the same amount of time. Space holding, training skills for the same amount of time....you get the pattern though.
Ultimately, I respect your view of it and my view isn't too far off. Just a few points we don't see eye to eye on. But, by the sounds of it, seems like we are both enjoying the game regardless and, RMT or not, that's the goal right? :)
ok so CCP let you use ingame currency to pay for your account is a bad thing? You say it hurts the pvp of a game being able to buy these plex's which ide have to say I disagree with. First things first these plex's cost about 35 euros for 2 which will get you around 300 mil for each of them so you could maybe buy 2 HAC's or a couple battleships(including fittings) .
First thing I want to draw attention to is the price can you really see people buying loads of these plex's like candy because i can't unless your rich as hell in which case why arnt you skydiving with models or something cool like that...
Anway back to why they are good imagine you log on for the first time in a couple weeks feel like going for some pvp but are low on isk and dont feel like running missions for a couple days to get the isk you need so you quickly buy a plex fit a bunch of ships and fly off and have fun all night with your corp. Not to mention all the people who are also looking for a battle for hours that never get 1 that thanks to you now have a fight on their hands.
Now if plex's didnt exist you might have been tempted to buy the ISK from a random site wake up the next morning to find yourself banned years of playing down the drain so you swear vengeance on CCP, get arrested 5 ft from ccp's office with a gun and your life is over ah well nvm
We can also look from the point of view of the poor unemployed man cant get a job to save his life and has decided to dedicate himself to playing eve but can't really afford to pay the 12quid a month to play but thanks to his horde of ISK he has gathered doesnt have to pay a penney and can keep playing his favourite game :)
You're right I don't have any evidence towards the figures and am just going off my experience in game so yes I accept that I could well be totally wrong. I'm not saying those figures are a stone cold fact just a best guess for a guy that used to play and has friends still playing it. Sorry if it came over different.
Yes they're talking about combating unregulated RMT but my point is that talk is cheap. After 7 years all they've done is introduced plex to basically cut out the middle man and take the profit themselves. My point is that this makes RMT worse, my analogy of the crack dealer was to point out no matter who takes over the crack dealing be it an illegal party or the goverment after legalizing it, the problems of crack abuse still remain do they not?
Which is what I'm pointing out here, removing "unregulated RMT" by means of plex doesn't remove the problems it causes nor make the game better. It has merely caused RMT to proliferate and amplified the problems and gripes it causes as a gamer. It has also put CCP in the position now that botting is making them more than just extra subscriptions. The profits from most botting activities comes through them at some point now with CCP getting their cut of the action so to speak.
This causes a massive dilema, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting? Sounds crazy right? Well that is part of the EVE business model now and they're talking about how they want to stamp it out?
If the best they can do after 7 years is come up with plex I doubt they're gonna prevent botting anytime soon. The problems still remain with people with RL cash getting a leg up and so forth, what next the selling of chars? That is the only unregulated RMT business still going that they haven't muscled in on yet. Also EVE is supposedly a P2P where this kind of thing just shouldn't go on.
It just makes me sick when they do this then say they're trying to stop botters and so forth when in the last 7 years they never have and never will now due to being an RMT site with plex now.
I know it's "just a game" but I don't like to play with cheats, liars and gold sellers and that's why I don't play EVE.
Yes I see your and goosehs points and agree there are plus sides to it, hell as I said I use it myself and definitely wouldn't have that many alts going if there was no Plex system. All I can say is there are things I would like to own that I have skills for but not enough isk.
hehe, getting arrested outside of CCPs office comment shows how serious spaceship pixels can become if not treated with care ;)
Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while.
You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
lol - and I thought it was only me. He wants something different - but doesn't quite know what it is and will remain the way he is until his target is hit.
move along... there's nothing to see here
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
You could sell it for ISK and sell the IS for RL if you know how. But I could sell a few PLEXes and buy your 30mil SP character. Thats how you build your alt collection, three specialized alts per account that you havent trained from scratch of course but bought and transfered to that account. So you may have your R&D alts, your production alt, your scout, mission runner , hulk trained miner, etc.
As they generate more money for you, you just buy more, 1 account 3 alts, they earn enough to pay for it through plex.
After a while you have a proper little army of alts that pay for themselves, well somebody pays real cash for them but who cares as you are loaded in game its not you.
This is a great article and I suggest everone read it. Only EVE that's all I'm gonna say, and only a very few game have had this type history and effect.
The irony is, this event has done as much to make the game a success as anything, and clearly illustrates EVE is not a game run by RMT's.
As for Kugutsumen, he was playing with fire and he got burned, that's life and that's EVE. If you think he is crying now, then you should click here. (BTW if you play EVE and don't know this site favorite it : )
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
I disagree that only CCP can profit from the plex trade. If I have my macro miners going and convert that into ISK in order to buy plex I can sell that plex for RL money to people for less than what CCP are selling it for yes?
If there is some mechanism that prevents me from selling plex for RL money then fine, but I'm not certain about RMT since I don't do it. If I can't do this please explain why.
But it seems Isk = plex = RL cash and RL cash = plex = ISK, yes?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
I disagree that only CCP can profit from the plex trade. If I have my macro miners going and convert that into ISK in order to buy plex I can sell that plex for RL money to people for less than what CCP are selling it for yes?
If there is some mechanism that prevents me from selling plex for RL money then fine, but I'm not certain about RMT since I don't do it. If I can't do this please explain why.
But it seems Isk = plex = RL cash and RL cash = plex = ISK, yes?
you can buy plex's for cash from CCP, you can only sell them for isk in game (if you dont use them yourself that is) trying to sell them on for cash yourself, is against the EULA, and if CCP catch you doing it, you will lose your account most likely, isk buying i think in the first instance the player loses the isk - i've heard of players going into the hole for -1 billion isk before now, for a repeated offence i think the penalty is more severe - accounts being banned is probably the most likely, CCP do take these issues very seriously, so basically dont do the illegal stuff unless your prepared for the consequences etc, my guess is that CCP probably has the backing of the majority of their playerbase for their actions against RMT's.
can buy ISK from a third party on the cheap. can get like 300-500mil for less than 15 bucks. buy plex in game for 265-275 and still have ISK left over. cost to pay monthly is less than the sub fee that CCP is charging and less than what they sell plex for. they arent against RMT because they do it, they just mad cus other people can undercut em. they want a bigger piece of the pie. so lets not do the holier than thou routine and think that CCP is doing this out of concern for the economy, player's accounts, etc...
There is a HUGE [problem with their theories.All one has to do is login and head to noobie chat,where most noobs NEED to go to get the information they desire.Well that chat is almost non usable,since it is spammed 24/7 by RMT ,might i add with GM's in there at all times,so do they really care?
You can't even ask a question in noob chat ,because it will just fly by 20 lines later from RMT spam,and even if a GM or someone trying to help sees it,you won't see the response because of the fly by RMT spam.
So they definitely do not care enough about the problem to remove spammers,all they REALLY care about is competition to their OWN RMT racketeering,witch is why people should not support it.
I know SOE is doing the same thing,one big difference however,SOE was all over RMT long before their own RMT operations.I know because when RMT sent me spam mail,SOE was monitoring it and warned me not to respond to any and report all RMT to them,so they definitely were PROACTIVE and did care.
I also realize it is more so the problem of the PLAYER BASE,since no buyers means no RMT,so obviously tons of EVE players ARE buying,but for CCP to act like they really care?It is only to save their own RMT nothing more.
You want to see how it is done properly,look at the way Square Enix does it.One obvious method i would employ is to remove any TRIAL player in EVE from accessing chat,sure it removes noob chat,but not like it is useful anyhow with rmt spamming it.Square Enix has made it so hard for RMT to keep gil ,that it is selling at incredibly high prices,so if Eve ISK was super high priced to buy from RMT,then the majority if not 99% would stop buying it.
FFXI gil the cheapest i found was $30 for a million,and this is a game on the way out,replaced by FFXIV.
Eve ISK lmao you can buy a million at 4 cents !yes sounds like CCP is all over the situation...pfft.
I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up.
I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
Well I respectfuly disagree with your opinion on the matter, my experiences have taught me otherwise. CCP are like the goverment that says well crack dealers are a problem and cause crime so we're putting them out of business by legalising crack and selling it ourselves as the only legal vendor. It doesn't cut down on the problem of crack in fact it increases crime, addiction and misery ten fold no doubt. What it does do is cut out the crack dealer and pulls in the goverment a nice profit.
That is what CCP has done, cut out the middle man and caused proliferation of RMT by making it legal through them. If they cracked down on botting it would damage their own business now, they'd be putting themselves out of business since people would close their multiple accounts and stop buying plex with isk and eventually quit.
Take away a crack head's source of income to purchase the drug be it through crime or not then he has to go cold turkey like it or not and he'll quit. Why would a dealer do that? Why would CCP do that to plex heads? It makes no sense.
As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence.
In short CCP does nothing but encourage proliferation of RMT and have turned EVE into a F2P RMT space mining simulator. The PvP era in EVE has been long gone since the ushering in of the plex era!
To believe anything else in my opinion is NAIEVE!
Very well said.
Believing anything they say after all that stuff took place is NAIEVE at best.
I think your analogy is spot on.
We get it, it's all a big ponzi scheme and CCP is the mastermind. EVE is an illusion and nobody actually plays the game anymore. People just use bots to buy GTC's so they can use the bots some more, and even the actions CCP takes to prevent it are really designed to encourage it.
It is, of course, curious why their own DEV's would want to play such a game, or why Kugutsumen would still support it, or why it has shown consistent and steady growth since it's inception, or why they are constantly adding new content free of charge, or why it was just named game of the year.
Maybe it's the chips CCP has implanted in our brains.
Instead of letting RMT's wreck the economy, CCP profits from them and players get the option of free game time.....Oh the injustice!
Iceland is broke.. guess they need all they can get?
kugutsumen still plays, he is in PL.
as far as big MMOs go, eve is the least populated by bots. admittedly i just pulled this fact out of my arse, but so have you pulled all of yours agricola.
and if you don't play a game anymore, and haven't for some time, then don't talk like you know exactly what is going on...as an old hardcore player...with 30 mil sp?
after unholy rage hit, smart people made billions on implants. wanna know why? prices of implants went crazy after all the bots stopped running missions 23/7.
for crying out loud it was possible to get corp offices at jita with all the macroers gone.
and yes they are coming back and getting on their feat, and yes CCP is collecting info and another massive ban will come.
people need to understand that if you report somebody for being a bot its stupid to ban him. its smart to find out which accounts are connected, if they are all using the same software, how can we detect it and so on. once you have enough info, you do a big ban. same in most other games tbh.
so if you report someone and he is not gone within the hour, take it easy, its being dealt with.
yes, a dev helping his alliances is horrible. well it happens in every mmo. there are guilds in wow who know exactly what is coming in patches and expansions long before blizzard announces anything. it happens in ALL mmos. get off your high horse and stop being naive. the only difference is CCP admitted what they did and implemented a department which controls all dev accounts.
not only that, they went so far that the moment a dev gets recognized, his character gets banned. point him out on vent and he is gone.
i have no idea why you don't like the plex system, but its your choice not to like it. respect though that a lot of different people love it. i know of programmers in my corp who have high profile jobs, and there is no way in hell he would ever grind isk. he would much rather work and get real money and then sell it to buy plexes.
then again there are cheap people who don't really have jobs and who would never pay real money for a "video game". and they don't mind spending 10 hours grinding to buy these plexes.
and yeas, CCP did in a way legalize rmt, so what? they don't make the isk, that isk is produced by player and traded for the game time with other players. and trading and economy is a big part of this game. everything is traded on the market. there are people who just sit in stations and buy and sell plexes for profit.
and while your formula stands, you cant make RL money by selling plexes...well you can...just not any worthy amount :)
first of all its a BIG problem to sell them, and second of all they would cost to much. yes you could have a bot running 23/7 and make isk but those are mining bots, and mining isn't very profitable these days (not to mention every now and then they do a big ban, so if you have some downloaded software expect to be caught). in the end you would make some isk and would be able to buy some plexes, but not enough to make any money.
now a mission bot is another story. and yes there are people with those, and they have accounts running them, but they don't buy plexes and then sell them for RL money, they sell the isk for RL money. they are called rmters and are present in every game :)
and i don't see what the hell is wrong in fighting them with an alternative. since the isk is not just generated. but every month of time you buy and sell for isk is actually applied to an account and used. nothing wrong with trading of game time as a commodity between players. its not like you can buy i win buttons. not in eve. if you have lots of isk it wont get you anywhere if you don't know how to play.
and it is not possible to get any substantial amounts of isk with plexes because you would crash the plex market. this Russian guy tried, he was selling untold amounts of plexes, but the value dropped so low he crashed the market.
I mean what do you want them to do, what every other MMO is doing? not sure you noticed, but none of the MMOs out there solved the RMT problem.
and for the last time, would you stop with the t20 incident. i mean really, do you believe that all other game companies never cheated and are completely fair? and that CCP is the only game company in the history of gaming who ever did this? because it appears that this is what you are saying...and i refuse to believe you are so naive.
It exists because the way to make money in EVE is boring and a repetitive grind.
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
Boy you have really gone off the deep end. Take a deep breath and say "I will not post on this thread again" multiple times because you are seriously deluded in your conceptions. Everyone understands that you dislike CCP, fine, but making up complete nonsense to support your theories just makes you look silly.
Fighting RMT generating bots is an ongoing battle. Any developer has to exercise caution in what accounts they ban so that legitimate ones are not affected. I know players who have tried the bot route and eventually they all get banned.
Goldsellers have become the telemarketters of MMOs ...and I also worry that their trade is becoming a training ground for people who will go on to lead a life of fraud or organized crime in real life. As MMOs become more established and their economies more sophisticated, the "value" of the scammer/goldseller's efforts grows and so too does the impact on a game's long-term health. It's not just the bots that need to be faught - it's also the people at the edges of the black market who try to cling to a claim of being legitimate traders but are fencing ill-gotten loot.
The way I see it, a good game economy needs to a few caveats to the wide-open sandbox:
1. inflation. Money accumulates and it needs to be cycled out. Most games do this via expansions that add new tiers of gold-generation, levels and loot, but the downside is that you end up creating a longer and longer curve to getting to the endgame.
2. multiple currencies. In the real world, economies are kept honest by having money only work within one region and when too much is printed, it becomes devalued against the rest of the currencies out there. Games can tap this by having different systems use different currencies. If one part of the game becomes too easily exploitable, the damage is limited. It also would likely make the statistical tracking of broken or exploited systems much faster.
3. limit the radius of trading. Allow currency/resources/loot/crafts to only be traded a limited number of steps within your social network (account/guild/friend tree). You can still have rares that are tradable server-wide, but if you flag resources as only being usable by members of the guild that harvested them, you can get reduce the range a bot can contaminate the economy. Punish accounts that have touched ill-gotten resources with debuffs, fines or disbanding (sorry, your guild-bound equipment built up with scripted loot just became non-functional decorations). Give bonus resources to accounts that aren't used as heavily.
(and on a related note, ingame communication in same games is almost worthless because your odds of ecountering a real person as opposed to scammers/sellers trolling for newbies is vanishingly small)
That is an interesting rule. Not sure what kind of logic or lore would be devised to support that, but it seems reasonable. It's an interesting direction that I'd like to see a developer travel one day.
Fixed your post.
You're right I don't have any evidence towards the figures and am just going off my experience in game so yes I accept that I could well be totally wrong. I'm not saying those figures are a stone cold fact just a best guess for a guy that used to play and has friends still playing it. Sorry if it came over different.
Yes they're talking about combating unregulated RMT but my point is that talk is cheap. After 7 years all they've done is introduced plex to basically cut out the middle man and take the profit themselves. My point is that this makes RMT worse, my analogy of the crack dealer was to point out no matter who takes over the crack dealing be it an illegal party or the goverment after legalizing it, the problems of crack abuse still remain do they not?
Which is what I'm pointing out here, removing "unregulated RMT" by means of plex doesn't remove the problems it causes nor make the game better. It has merely caused RMT to proliferate and amplified the problems and gripes it causes as a gamer. It has also put CCP in the position now that botting is making them more than just extra subscriptions. The profits from most botting activities comes through them at some point now with CCP getting their cut of the action so to speak.
This causes a massive dilema, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting? Sounds crazy right? Well that is part of the EVE business model now and they're talking about how they want to stamp it out?
If the best they can do after 7 years is come up with plex I doubt they're gonna prevent botting anytime soon. The problems still remain with people with RL cash getting a leg up and so forth, what next the selling of chars? That is the only unregulated RMT business still going that they haven't muscled in on yet. Also EVE is supposedly a P2P where this kind of thing just shouldn't go on.
It just makes me sick when they do this then say they're trying to stop botters and so forth when in the last 7 years they never have and never will now due to being an RMT site with plex now.
I know it's "just a game" but I don't like to play with cheats, liars and gold sellers and that's why I don't play EVE.
I really don't see the reason to be sick, and I think your missing several points. It's pretty clear what CCP is doing, despite your argument, they are going after the RMT's because they are stealing from CCP's plex revenue.
You seem to be saying RMT's and GTC's are the same thing, and forgetting that by investing in GTC's CCP, more than ever, needs to fight RMT's. This is why we see Unholy Rage in the first place.
If you remove all RMT, EVE is 100% P2P. Every moment of game time is paid for, CCP is just saying they don't care by who.
Your argument on Bot's generating Income for the game is valid, but seriously flawed IMO.
And I quote "This causes a massive dilemma, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting?"
CCP does not make money by making a better bot, they make money by making a better MMO. The point of PLEX is not to make money, but to steal money from RMT. CCP compromises with players and allows them to trade ISK/Playtime, in an attempt to fight RMT and improve the game. They then go after the bots the RMT's use to protect this market. The PLEX market is not a real RMT because player are trading in game currency for Playtime. The proof is in the fact that all this is generated by in game work and not real life money. With RMT it's just the opposite.
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
wrong logic because 75% of players stay on empire the load is on multiple nodes if u sum up all crowded system on empire the number of player pass by 5 times any null sec fleet action and if u sum up the time spend in hours that this crowded systems strees the server ths sum of all this time will pass by hundreds of time that time spend by the occasional fleet pew pew in null sec
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
Well it's an interesting theory but most gold selling sites will sell plex along side EVE ISK and they sell plex for less than CCP sell it. If they're scamming people how do they stay in business? I mean gold sellers do a shady business but they're in it for a profit and repeat business that keeps them going not to scam.
It sounds good on paper but all that's happened is that plex has become another item for gold sellers to barter and a motivating factor for the botters that provide those sites with their products yes?
What I think is happening is what another guy said in this thread earlier. Some guy at CCP had a brain fart and cooked up this idea of selling plex to muscle in on the gold sellers and damage their business. All that has happened is that the Gold sellers have under cut CCP and sell plex for less than them. CCP have two options,
1: Clamp down on the botters (the main customers of plex).
2: Lower the price of plex under cutting the gold seller.
Each option means CCP lose income, they stop botting their sales of plex drop dramatically at the same time the price of ISK inflates on gold selling sites and it becomes far more profitable for even non botters to sell ISK on those sites than buy plex off CCP. However CCP will ultimately lose subscribers and alot of plex heads.
Lowering the price of plex means a price war with the gold sellers, CCP have to effectively lower their subscription fee and income until they can put them out of business and make the purchase of plex from anyone else too expensive. Ultimately CCP don't know if they can win the price war and even if they could it might cost them dearly and they'd lose subs if they tried to raise the price of plex again once they'd won. Also there's nothing stopping the gold sellers selling it again, IF CCP won.
So CCP has become the gold seller but is up against guys with alot more experience, it's like making a car to compete with Mercedes Benz good luck!
So what does CCP do? They do as they always have and maintain the status quo release some BS to the press about how they want to stop RMT ... erm well not their RMT but the guys that are under cutting them and effectively lowering the sub fee of EVE (which is nothing if you use a free roid ripper bot!).
Botters don't get banned unless they brag about it and become an embaressment to CCP, otherwise they're left in peace. I mean CCP employees play in large alliances that have their own fleets of mining bots and know all about it, effectively they endorse botting in practice but speak against it to the sheep that will listen. They thought plex would cut them in on the RMT business, instead it's caused their subscription fee to be one of the cheapest around and nothing if you bot. They're angry and confused, they've fought their way into a corner and don't know how to get out!
Well it's an interesting theory but most gold selling sites will sell plex along side EVE ISK and they sell plex for less than CCP sell it. If they're scamming people how do they stay in business? I mean gold sellers do a shady business but they're in it for a profit and repeat business that keeps them going not to scam.
It sounds good on paper but all that's happened is that plex has become another item for gold sellers to barter and a motivating factor for the botters that provide those sites with their products yes?
What I think is happening is what another guy said in this thread earlier. Come guy at CCP had a brain fart and cooked up this idea of selling plex to muscle in on the gold sellers and damage their business. All that has happened is that the Gold sellers have under cut CCP and sell plex for less than them. CCP have two options,
1: Clamp down on the botters (the main customers of plex).
2: Lower the price of plex under cutting the gold seller.
Each option means CCP lose income, they stop botting their sales of plex drop dramatically at the same time the price of ISK inflates on gold selling sites and it becomes far more profitable for even non botters to sell ISK on those sites than buy plex off CCP. However CCP will ultimately lose subscribers and alot of plex heads.
Lowering the price of plex means a price war with the gold sellers, CCP have to effectively lower their subscription fee and income until they can put them out of business and make the purchase of plex from anyone else too expensive. Ultimately CCP don't know if they can win the price war and even if they could it might cost them dearly and they'd lose subs if they tried to raise the price of plex again once they'd won. Also there's nothing stopping the gold sellers selling it again, IF CCP won.
So CCP has become the gold seller but is up against guys with alot more experience, it's like making a car to compete with Mercedes Benz good luck!
So what does CCP do? They do as they always have and maintain the status quo release some BS to the press about how they want to stop RMT ... erm well not their RMT but the guys that are under cutting them and effectively lowering the sub fee of EVE (which is nothing if you use a free roid ripper bot!).
Botters don't get banned unless they brag about it and become an embaressment to CCP, otherwise they're left in peace. I mean CCP employees play in large alliances that have their own fleets of mining bots and know all about it, effectively they endorse botting in practice but speak against it to the sheep that will listen. They thought plex would cut them in on the RMT business, instead it's caused their subscription fee to be one of the cheapest around and nothing if you bot. They're angry and confused, they've fought their way into a corner and don't know how to get out!
Now you're just lying : (
Agricola you got this thing on your mind and nobody will change it unless u start to test this things by yourself
if ppl buy PLEX from gold sellers they are simply retarded because if they BUY ISK the isk is removed from the account and the user get a warning, if u buy plex i bet is instant ban because u are cheating whit subscription
i dont remember wery well the deails but back when red overlord mega boss that is aluminum tycoon in real life spend 100 000 dollars on ISk from gold sellers in order to build a alliance on eve CCP banned him and any account involved on that and then he spend another 100 000 dollar on plex and financed/build red overlord alliance
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
You didn't have to write all that when you could have just said that you dont know anything about EVE.
Pro-Tip™ for your next troll: EvE only has one server, one shard...
Again in theory it sounds good, so answer me this how do those ISK sellers stay in business and why would they still be selling ISK and plex on their site if it just got wiped after the customer got delivery or the customer got a ban?
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds :(
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds :(
I find that hard to believe!
(I was being sarcastic there)
It's just I have friends that've been playing eve for years and some bot, some buy isk and some sell it but only one was ever caught after bragging constantly in local everyday about how much RL money he made from his fleet of mining bots. He eventually got his accounts banned but still bots the same today without bragging. So the theory that you get caught by CCP after purchasing ISK/Plex everytime is just not true. It's more the exception to the rule and I think we all know it.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
It is funny watching people defend this as something good.
What CCP complains about:
"Players" farming ISK to sell for real money.
How CCP resolved that:
"Players" farming ISK to buy PLEX which are sold for real money.
They may as well go full blown with their micro-shop and just sell ships, modules, and other items for cash.
It used to tick me off that the ex bought gold for WoW, but in all honesty - how was it any different than my buying PLEX? Is it about the botters? Then do something about them, eh? You cannot say you are fighting RMTs by offering RMTs... how about the government announces a new anti-drug policy by offering to sell the drugs themselves? Uh huh...
Well if you can believe it, some ISK sellers are so mean and naughty that they dont give refunds :(
I find that hard to believe!
(I was being sarcastic there)
It's just I have friends that've been playing eve for years and some bot, some buy isk and some sell it but only one was ever caught after bragging constantly in local everyday about how much RL money he made from his fleet of mining bots. He eventually got his accounts banned but still bots the same today without bragging. So the theory that you get caught by CCP after purchasing ISK/Plex everytime is just not true. It's more the exception to the rule and I think we all know it.
As for the other guy he probably meant a seperate server blade, since the EVE server is just alot of servers put together handling different zones. They need to give Jita it's own server if they haven't already since thet would lock down after 500 people entered when I used to play anyway.
Jita quite often has far in excess of 500, and its not a problem, so perhaps there have been a few improvements, a couple of days ago, nearly 400 of us took out a station in 0.0, while there was some lag, it was very slight - it only started when we opened fire! CCP arent just working on removing RMT's their also working hard on making the server more capable and refining the software where necessary - imo, the only people complaining about CCP's actions in dealing with the RMT's are those who have either;
a. been penalised for using said services.
b. profited from carrying out said activities.
c. dont like Eve anyway...
Personally i would commend any MMO company that is proactive in dealing with RMT.
Jita has it's own node for a while now. hard-limit is about 1400 players in system, with no noticeable lag.
I don't know if you're being unintentionally ironic, but that's a pretty well proven way to greatly reduce the harm that drug use causes.
Please remember that the only thing CCP sell is game time. That's a pretty important distinction, because it provides a brake down the slippery slope fallacy that you tried to introduce. What you're saying is akin to accusing someone who hires the neighbours kid to do his gardening: "Well you're paying money to get a child to do the work on your land, why dont you just be honest with yourself and call yourself a child slave-owner, because that's all that slave owners do: pay to have other people do the work". Who gets the money and on what terms makes all the difference here.
Agricola's hyperbole and creatively sourced statistics* notwithstanding, most EVE players are pretty relaxed about the PLEX system because we know that it does not, in fact, cause many problems. Your drug analogy is a good one here. Driving the trade underground would cause vastly more problems than regulating and limiting it. On the other hand if CCP did try to introduce an item shop, I can absolutely assure you that there would be a vast uproar. Allowing PLEX for ISK is tolerated because it's basically impossible to just "buy win" with ISK in EVE. The system is homeostatic in too many ways. If you tried to spend a million dollars to fit your whole alliance out in motherships, you'd crash the PLEX market, and you'd get a low amount of ISK for your PLEX. And because unsupported motherships are horribly vulnerable, any advantage you got would be rather evanescent in any case. In short, you'd pretty quickly lose them. Players who do try to "buy win" are something of a standing joke. They're held in contempt, if anything. Rather than a threat, they're seen as a kind of pinata, a lucky loot spawn, with the added satisfaction of knowing that you just cost some idiot real life loss.
The rather dull, boring fact is that the great majority of people who sell PLEX are people who work all week and want to PvP at the weekend. They sell a PLEX now and then, buy a HAC and maybe a Battlecruiser or two, and off they go. They're not e-gangsters. They just want to pay someone a month of subs to do some grinding for them.
No MMO with any kind of economy is free from RMT. CCP's method of dealing with it is more liberal, mature and customer-friendly than most.
*If you actually stop and think about the things that he's accusing CCP, and remember that someone has to actually pay real money to create those PLEX, the accusations simply dont make sense.
There are many many ways for players to exploit the PLEX system, and saying that most players don't consider it a problem has little value. Also saying that ISK doesnt help you win in EVE is also not really true.
Lets consider a guy with 10 accounts running his industry operation in some safe alliance space, he makes alot of isk and pays for his accounts through PLEX,. Would he pay 150dollars per month for these accounts? - probably not.... Now consider a newish player who would like to break into industry or trade, well tough luck, there is no room for obvious reasons. Is this healthy for EVE? Absolutely not, you reducing the things new players can do thus providing a worse playing experience. Essentially the PLEX system allows fro more concentration of wealth.
On the other hand if you want to compete against this guy you really need huge amounts of ISK investemt to develop your operations, realistically there are only 3 ways to do it, trade (not easy and very time consuming), scam, or buying ISK (selling PLEXes).
These days if you are newish the only thing to do is run missions if you want ISK, everything else is much less efficient and that is a problem for EVE.
Players use money to buy PLEX to buy ISK....Players Bot mine to gain ISK to buy PLEX....how exactly have they solved RMT and botting? And why should others copy them?
Just to point out to people here... CCP have allowed the sale of GTC's via their forums at least since june 2007 (going by the earliest post in the 'Timecode Bazaar' on their official forums).
So to say the least, this isnt a "new" thing as it were... infact if anything since then the price for 60 days of game time has gone UP in ISK value whilst the $ value has remained fairly static (30 days now going for about 270million IN game, 60days GTC about 510million on the forums) , whereas originally 90days GTC was about 400million...
BUT i have also seen some PLEX's accidentally sell for 150mill (or less) on the market as well is in excess of 350mill on ther market.
So in reality... how much is 30days game time worth in terms of ISK?
Its whatever the player SELLING the gametime values it to be at that point in time (or a very stupid mistake pricing it up on the market).
Can CCP ever *truely* stop the selling of isk via ISk selling websites? No, but they can try to limit it though; and this method of "selling gametime for ISK" is one method that at least the community prefers and has accepted...
Still, nothing better than blowing up a players ship knowing that he bought it with ISK obtained from selling a GTC, especially if you were the one who bought the GTC ;)
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
old chart before the PLEX system was introduced
on the left is the price for 1 billion ISK
The sophistry you attempt to offer with your "akin" is pretty far off from what I stated. You cannot say you are fighting RMT by using RMT.
The distinction you offer would be fine, if they only did sell game time - but they do not. The PLEX can be traded for ISK. Real Money -> PLEX -> ISK. Many companies sell GTCs - they do not have a means to convert said GTC into game money. That distinction is key.
Player A:
Farms ISK. Sells the ISK illegally to players for real money. Uses some of the real money to pay for their game time.
Player B:
Buys illegal ISK for his/her character with real money.
Player C:
Buys GTCs for real money, converts them to PLEX, and sells them in game for ISK.
Player D:
Farms ISK. Buys PLEX to pay for their game time.
The main difference between what Player A/B are doing and Player C/D? CCP gets the money. So the synopsis of the way that CCP is suggesting game companies fight people selling items in their games for real money? The game companies should sell it themselves. There are already micro-transactions/item shops out there - and a lot of people hate them.
Now if you wanted to make a case about CCP suggesting an alternative means to allow players to buy real game items for money that could reduce server load from botting and the like, then fine - you have that - but be honest about what it is...
...that is where my example about the government comes into play. If you are suggesting that you are fighting the drug problem by selling the drugs yourself, you are full of crap. However, by selling the drugs themselves - they might cut down on some of the issues associated with the selling of drugs.
again lack of knowledge in action a GTC is 35 dollar and that means 2 PLEX in eve the PLEX price change in eve because is set by players ( u can check the price here www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html ) so any gold seller that want to stay in bussines have to put a much lower price on ISK so they can compete whit the PLEX system
So what you are saying is, that a Public Health Option will address the high cost of healthcare by forcing the insurance companies to compete at an artificial level...right?
Which would be great if we were talking about that...but the guy asked about RMT and botting.
Instead of conducting a RMT with a third party, you can do it with CCP.
Instead of botting for ISK to sell to a third party so you can pay for your game time, you can bot for ISK to buy PLEX from another player that conducted a RMT with CCP.
So what you are saying is, that a Public Health Option will address the high cost of healthcare by forcing the insurance companies to compete at an artificial level...right?
Which would be great if we were talking about that...but the guy asked about RMT and botting.
Instead of conducting a RMT with a third party, you can do it with CCP.
Instead of botting for ISK to sell to a third party so you can pay for your game time, you can bot for ISK to buy PLEX from another player that conducted a RMT with CCP.
You should probably lay off the bong before you post. This thread isn't about Health care (or drugs) and you only create these analogies because you lack the ability of construct a real argument. (and because you only really care about being a jerk) If you read this thread, then you see every legitimate objection, has been addressed by multiple EVE PLAYERS.
And the above crap is the best you can do. We have seen the effect GTC and Unholy rage has had on the game, and we know CCP is taking the problem seriously and it fighting effectively (also why we're winning this argument BTW). You just throw out the same weak arguments that have been very well cut down by multiple players. Then when you lose repeatedly, you just make stuff up. : p
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
I Think the funniest thing about your post, is how you claim to know the definative truth on every thing from CCP's fight with RTM's, to the US Health Care debate. Sorry, had to stop typing there I'm laughing so hard. Guess we're just lucky to even hear your thoughts.........
How are you winning the argument in the least? CCP is fighting third party RMT by offering their own RMT. That is not fighting RMT. It is encouraging RMT with them. There is no way around that regardless of how much fanboy love is shown. Covering your ears and crying out lalalala - you're wrong; is not a means of effectively arguing against a simple fact - RMT is RMT.
You make several unfounded and biased claims in your post, which unfortunately for you is detrimental to your mistaken cause.
CCP does take the issue of getting the most money out of the game seriously - nobody has argued against that, so I am not sure why you bring that up in the way you have - it is kind of the point, no?
From encouraging scamming of players as part of the game through artificially protected ninja looting, CCP has done a great job since I started playing in the beginning of 2007...
You don't appear to like CCP very much, but regardless of that, your arguments are neither accurate nor conclusive, CCP's activities have no doubt disrupted RMT traders, and unfortunately a good few players who have used their services have obviously suffered as a consequence, but dont mix up game mechanics with scam techniques, the meta gaming aspect of Eve is part of the game, its not just a game after all where you have to repeatedly swing a sword at a goblin etc... about the only statement you made that is any way accurate, is the bit where you said, CCP has done a great job.. though i'd say overall rather than just since 2007..
I claimed that a RMT is a RMT. If real money is spent for an in-game item, it is a real money transaction. Spending real money to buy a GTC to convert to PLEX to sell for ISK is spending real money for an in-game item. There is no getting around that.
I offered the sarcastic analogy of what somebody said being equivalent to what has been suggested with a Public Health Option (that analogy being premised on what the person said in stating that by CCP selling ISK, it has reduced the price of ISK from third party sellers - is that not a premise of what has been suggested with a Public Health Option? If the government sells insurance, it will reduce the price charged by insurance companies?)...
I think the funniest thing is that you are still posting on this. Have to ask, are you mining right now or something and this is passing the time?
I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming. I was talking about contracts, etc. Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense. I have not made any inaccurate statements. If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.
It is not a case of not liking CCP. I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats. Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game. They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.
My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it). It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage. They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc. It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:
1) Flag the salvager.
2) Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship. Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.
Other than that, it has always been a fun game.
I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...
I could honestly care less about RMT. That being said... I do care about abuse.
Applies to everyone...
If there is a bug/exploit they're using... find it, fix it.
If they are botting and that is against the rules ban them.
I could give a piss in a windstorm about the rest. You can't bring more money into the economy than the game will allow it's that simple, if you remove all the hacks, exploits, and bugs the RMT are using to get gold ~outside the means of the average player~ then let them. It's their time, their effort, and their payment. It breaks the whole system when they are doing it in a way that violates the constraints of the system. It breaks the whole system if they're duping gold. It breaks the whole system if they have 500 computers running bots 24x7. So long as they're restricted to same rules as 'real players' I don't have an issue...
Course the people who buy might be, gold would be 10x more expensive. Oh well.
I was not talking about PLEX in regard to scamming. I was talking about contracts, etc. Scamming is considered part of the game in that sense. I have not made any inaccurate statements. If there is anything that requires clarification, just ask.
It is not a case of not liking CCP. I generally recommend EVE to people looking for a MMORPG, albeit with a few caveats. Compared to most companies, they do a great job and have a great game. They have actually offered innovation while many companies have only offered regurgitation.
My main disagreement with them over the years has been on ninja salvaging (and how they made it easier with probing without addressing it). It always struck me as odd that the server considered the salvage as the property of the person that destroyed the ship - except - for some jury-rigged code allowing other players to salvage. They could not tractor, they could not fire on, etc. It was funny that my thoughts on it allowed for two possible resolutions:
1) Flag the salvager.
2) Allow them to tractor, fire, etc - actually fix it so that the server did not treat the salvage as belonging to the player that destroyed the ship. Perhaps nitpicking, but as it stood - it does come off as jury-rigged and nonsensical.
Other than that, it has always been a fun game.
I do not see what that has to do with fighting RMT with RMT though...
The facts are some players don't want to face the truth. CCP created plex to muscle in on the RMT business and get a slice of the action themselves. The side effect is however that the gold sellers have all under cut them and now you can get plex from them cheaper than buying it from CCP. Sure CCP still sells them for the same ammount however it's backfired and caused a massive proliferation of botting and purchases from gold sellers against the eula.
In short CCP has bit off more than they could chew and started a price war that they can't possibly hope to win and now they're crying about it.
No one is saying plex is bad for the player or that EVE is a bad game, people are just saying that CCP is full of BS when they talk about stopping RMT. It's just alot of the playerbase in this game with such a steep learning curve for some reason have a difficulty understanding these few simple and obvious facts.
I guess CCP havent been to Nakugard icebelt recently then and seen all the mackinaws there and what not, but luckily there is some of us who have suicide alts to jump in there and blow up a few macks before concords come.
I don't believe CCP should be held up as the poster child for the fight against third-party RMT as they have a much stronger incentive to stamp out third-party RMT than other games . Third-party RMT in EVE is in direct competition with CCP's own RMT system .
I disagree that there's a negative connotation here, though perhaps that just makes me a bit Machiavellian. CCP's strategy is just the logical outgrowth of a rationalist approach to dealing with the problem.
For example - author Larry Niven described a similar solution to corruption in his description of the Birthright Lotteries in his Known Space milieu, a fascinating SF topic in itself. To stop people trying to bribe officials to obtain Birthrights, the Birthrights were simply also put up for sale at a very high price.
More abstractly, when a legitimate and functionally similar means to satisfy a demand is provided, any illegitimate market satisfying that demand tends to wither.
How dare CCP allow players to play for free by paying for game time with ISK. Such greed...
All coins have two sides. They could've just sold ISK and be done with it, but they didnt.
For your reading pleasure.
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1285402
Enjoy!
Well I think the PLEX are interesting. I was thinking of buying some PLEX from CCP so I could sell them in-game, so that I could buy Augmentations along with the secondary learning skills - would help a lot, and would end up being maybe 70 million ISK.
I don't see why it's terrible - there have been many arguments that pot should be legalised and texed by the government rather than its current illegal way of trade, since its effects are about the same as alcohol or smoking anyway (and those are still legal).
CCP cutting out the evil middle man is a good thing in my eyes - but then again, "My color is white", valuing order and lawfulness and other well structured things. I prefer CCP to be profiting from players' needs rather than some Chinese sweatshop owner (no great racist offense meant, just refering to the steriotype).
They do. You have to buy the GTC's from their authorized sellers and then you sell them to players for ISK. So CCP is selling ISK. I personally have no problem with gold sellers in any game. If games want to remove the game sellers then remove the need for gold grind. If they refuse to do this then some times spending cash is more reasonable than spending my time. While ISK sellers might be cheaper they are not safer than using CCP. So buy ISK through CCP and you have no fear. They even have forums for selling the GTC cards themselves. So you do not have to use the contract system in the game.
Apparently nobody in here has heard of conflict of interest.
They make money off the whole scheme.
Companies don't shoot themselves in the foot.
It adds to their bottom line.
they would not try to remove something that makes them dollars.
They do. You have to buy the GTC's from their authorized sellers and then you sell them to players for ISK. So CCP is selling ISK.
No, CCP are only selling game time. That's a pretty big difference from CCP's point of view. It may not seem like a huge difference to you as a player, but the implications for effects on gameplay are completely different.
No, CCP are only selling game time. That's a pretty big difference from CCP's point of view. It may not seem like a huge difference to you as a player, but the implications for effects on gameplay are completely different.
CCP has always been in the "game time" business. The only thing that has changed is how the game time is delivered. The only people that are in the RMT business, or ISK farmers and the people (loser’s) that use them.
i hope more players start to buy PLEX in order to get the price up and hurt RMT business my hope is to get 1 PLEX at 350m
No, CCP are only selling game time. That's a pretty big difference from CCP's point of view. It may not seem like a huge difference to you as a player, but the implications for effects on gameplay are completely different.
CCP has always been in the "game time" business. The only thing that has changed is how the game time is delivered. The only people that are in the RMT business, or ISK farmers and the people (loser’s) that use them.
PLEX was introduced to make the sale of EVE Gametime Codes to other players for ISK much more user friendly . http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=603 . " We felt it was time to move forward with it--do another iteration to make it much easier and accessible exchange ISK for game time " . Real Money is being Traded with CCP for a virtual item that has the intended purpose of being sold to another player for virtual money . CCP provide the item ( PLEX ) & the means by which it is to be sold ingame . The only step in the trade of real money for virtual money that CCP doesn't directly involve itself in is the setting of a market price for the virtual item . To say that CCP is not involved in the RMT business is to say that , the means ( by which the trade takes place ) justify the ends ( virtual items/currency is bought with real money ) .
It probably all comes down to our personal interpretation of what RMT is . Whether we agree or disagree that the trade in PLEX constitutes RMT is of little importance . What is important is whether it is good for the game ? If you judge player satisfaction by increasing subscription numbers , be they alt accounts or new players , then the answer would be yes .
Not really. A game client and the subscription that goes with it is not a virtual item, and this is all they are selling. Many players then create virtual items that can used as currency or subscription time.
The only issue as it relates to this tread is why?
All business, gaming or pet groomers, are involved in real money transfers. It's how they make money. This doesn't mean they are in the RMT business.
It has nothing to do with the end justifying the means, it's about who has the right to profit from the game. Whether GTC exist or not, RTM's are still the same parasite on the companies client and companies still have the right to sell their game time any way they choose.
CCP has always fought RMT's in their game, and I have know several players that have had their wallets emptied over the years. Shortly after plex was released, you begin to see them going after the RMT directly, then Unholy Rage hit.
It's pretty clear to anyone that cares that CCP in not in the RMT business but in the MMO business, and these are the steps they have taken to combat the problem.
Despite what they want you to believe, EVE is still filled with bots.
Not nearly as much as it once was. Unlike NCsofts Aion, CCP actually dedicates time and resources to dealing with botters and other such scum.
Not really. A game client and the subscription that goes with it is not a virtual item, and this is all they are selling. Many players then create virtual items that can used as currency or subscription time.
The only issue as it relates to this tread is why?
All business, gaming or pet groomers, are involved in real money transfers. It's how they make money. This doesn't mean they are in the RMT business.
It has nothing to do with the end justifying the means, it's about who has the right to profit from the game. Whether GTC exist or not, RTM's are still the same parasite on the companies client and companies still have the right to sell their game time any way they choose.
CCP has always fought RMT's in their game, and I have know several players that have had their wallets emptied over the years. Shortly after plex was released, you begin to see them going after the RMT directly, then Unholy Rage hit.
It's pretty clear to anyone that cares that CCP in not in the RMT business but in the MMO business, and these are the steps they have taken to combat the problem.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree . But I think there is one thing that we can both agree on . It is much better to have the money going to CCP , who will invest the money back into the industry , than have it going to a goldfarmer who is leaching of CCP's labour . I have never bought from a goldfarmer & I never will .
I'm calling BS on this. Eve is a game where the developers facilitate RMT, as long as they are the ones receiving the real money. This is a game where in-game currency takes the place of XP in other games. It is the only reward, and the only incentive to engage in combat, mine or run missions. Of course you can buy game time from CCP and sell it to other players for in-game currency. It's just like buying gold in any other game, except that you give the money to CCP instead of some gold selling service. It is, IMO the biggest flaw in the game. They only want to stop traditional RMT sales because it cuts in to their own efforts to do the same thing.
WOW.....I think you figured it out ROFL