As I said over in the distribution thread in the potbs forum here, I'm very disappointed in some of their answers.

They continue to blame game retailers for the pre-order box mess.  Where's the responsibility for the missing key codes in the boxes (in multiple stores)?  Where's the acknowledgement that stores weren't well informed about the game?  Where's the responsibility for not knowing how some retailers handle "pre-order" boxes as opposed to "special" boxes?  Who's at fault for delaying the EU release for nearly a month?  Who released a pre-order box in the middle of the Christmas window, after SPECIFICALLY stating that they didn't want to release the game at Christmas due to the crush of console titles? Who misprinted cards in the pre-order boxes?  Who hasn't posted a sticky thread explaining that digital downloads will NOT receive the pre-order bonuses?  Who has not set up information at the link on the pre-order cards explaining what players should do with their codes? 

Suggesting that one chain of stores, and their employees, are to blame for a lot of the mess, is just plain nuts.

The marketing part was disappointing as well.  What game waits for Open Beta to push the marketing campaign?  Heck, GnH had ads and mentions in major magazines even AFTER it was cancelled.  From early May, when they signed a marketing and distribution partner, until now, this game could have taken advantage of the PotC movie, pirate conventions held around the country, more gaming shows, magazines, talk like a pirate day, the three release windows, etc, etc.  Instead, they've waited until Christmas.

Wasted opportunity, if you ask me.

I'd been used to FLS being a very open, and honest, developer with their fans.  Over the last few months, though, I believe that's changed a bit.  Those two specific answers felt like corporate "spin", and it disappointed me.  Based on prior experiences with them, I expected better from that group of developers.

Wow, you're really angry. I'll take it from the top.

Where's the responsibility for the missing key codes in the boxes (in multiple stores)?

Manufacturing problems happen. I ran a publishing company for a decade before working on Pirates and there was always a small percentage of books or box sets or whatever we were making that came out with problems. We had books with repeated pages, boxed sets missing components, and so on. It's not a conspiracy and we are helping out those people who didn't get a key code.

A similar issue just happened with Bioshock's limited edition packages.

Where's the acknowledgement that stores weren't well informed about the game?

As I told you in the dev chat, our ability to communicate directly to retailers is very, very limited. We give information and marketing materials to the national management. They don't let us contact store managers directly and with good reason, since otherwise every game company on the planet would be calling them all the time.

The simple truth is that SOE isn't EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. We don't have the clout those companies have and when we talk, there's no guarantee the retailers will listen. That's not an unusual situation and there's nothing sinister here.

Where's the responsibility for not knowing how some retailers handle "pre-order" boxes as opposed to "special" boxes?

It's right here. I wished we'd understood that better. We should have asked more questions and given better information to our players from the start. I think we've said that several times on our forums but I'm happy to say it here or anywhere else.

Who's at fault for delaying the EU release for nearly a month?

It's nobody's "fault". It just takes time to make deals with international partners, and those deals couldn't even get started until we had North America wrapped up. You seem to think some kind of foot-dragging or incompetence was involved. That's not the case. Negotiating contracts is a time-consuming process. The companies involved want to do research, debate the offer internally, compare the costs and benefits of doing Pirates vs. the other projects they're being offered, and blah blah blah. That's just business. We couldn't delay North America while we pursued Europe, so we had to move forward here.

You might as well ask the same question about Australia, Korea, Japan, China, Singapore, and so on. We don't have deals to announce for any of those countries. We're working on all of them. Some will fall through, some will pan out. All take time.

Who released a pre-order box in the middle of the Christmas window, after SPECIFICALLY stating that they didn't want to release the game at Christmas due to the crush of console titles?

We did and man, am I glad not to be releasing the game during this time frame.

Once we set the launch date of 1/22, our hands were tied as to when the preorder boxes would come out. The retail chains want them within a specific window prior to the real launch, and that put us in October.

The only way we could have pushed the preorder boxes past Christmas would be to push the retail launch until spring. And nope, we're not going to do that.

Who misprinted cards in the pre-order boxes?

See above.

Who hasn't posted a sticky thread explaining that digital downloads will NOT receive the pre-order bonuses?

That would be us. We answer that question all the time and a sticky thread is not a bad idea. We don't really have a forum specifically for retail-related issues where such a sticky belongs, however. I'll talk to our community director about that and see what he thinks about consolidating all retail discussion someplace useful and easy to find.

Although I think the preorder page seems pretty straightforward.

Who has not set up information at the link on the pre-order cards explaining what players should do with their codes?

That would be SOE. Given that you can't use them until 1/7, it really hasn't seemed like a priority.

Suggesting that one chain of stores, and their employees, are to blame for a lot of the mess, is just plain nuts.

Have you shopped for a PC game in the last two years that wasn't Bioshock, Half-Life 2, or World of Warcraft? Dedicated game retailers make their best money on used console games. That's what gets the wall space. When I went into my nearest games retailer recently, PC titles were relegated to one side of a half-height bookcase and all the titles were shelved spine-out instead of face-out. There was no distinction between new and older and budget titles. The PC games market is not doing very well, with a handful of high-profile exceptions, and games retailers are making their money and putting their focus elsewhere. I understand this and that's the reality we have to work with.

And again, as I said earlier, SOE is not EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. It's an uphill climb for us.

Is any of that actually nuts? This is just how the world works.

From early May, when they signed a marketing and distribution partner, until now, this game could have taken advantage of the PotC movie, pirate conventions held around the country, more gaming shows, magazines, talk like a pirate day, the three release windows, etc, etc. Instead, they've waited until Christmas. Wasted opportunity, if you ask me.

We spent the spring, summer, and early fall attending one large event after another. We went to regional LAN tournaments, PAX, GenCon, San Diego ComiCon, New York ComiCon, E3, GDC, and a load of other shows where thousands of people got to play the game, ask us questions, and learn more about what we're up to. We haven't been sitting in a cave all this time.

Mainstream advertising to people who have never heard of us -- meaning ads in magazines and on sites like IGN -- is waiting until those people can actually do something with the information. Anything prior to that is just a teaser.

I'd been used to FLS being a very open, and honest, developer with their fans. Over the last few months, though, I believe that's changed a bit. Those two specific answers felt like corporate "spin", and it disappointed me. Based on prior experiences with them, I expected better from that group of developers.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just a guy trying to answer your angry questions instead of getting other work done, and for all I know I'm wasting my time because you're going to be angry regardless of what I say. But I've been answering angry questions about this game -- and friendly ones as well -- for five years and I'm not stopping now.

Originally posted by johntynes

Wow, you're really angry. I'll take it from the top.

Where's the responsibility for the missing key codes in the boxes (in multiple stores)?

Manufacturing problems happen. I ran a publishing company for a decade before working on Pirates and there was always a small percentage of books or box sets or whatever we were making that came out with problems. We had books with repeated pages, boxed sets missing components, and so on. It's not a conspiracy and we are helping out those people who didn't get a key code.

A similar issue just happened with Bioshock's limited edition packages.

Where's the acknowledgement that stores weren't well informed about the game?

As I told you in the dev chat, our ability to communicate directly to retailers is very, very limited. We give information and marketing materials to the national management. They don't let us contact store managers directly and with good reason, since otherwise every game company on the planet would be calling them all the time.

The simple truth is that SOE isn't EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. We don't have the clout those companies have and when we talk, there's no guarantee the retailers will listen. That's not an unusual situation and there's nothing sinister here.

Where's the responsibility for not knowing how some retailers handle "pre-order" boxes as opposed to "special" boxes?

It's right here. I wished we'd understood that better. We should have asked more questions and given better information to our players from the start. I think we've said that several times on our forums but I'm happy to say it here or anywhere else.

Who's at fault for delaying the EU release for nearly a month?

It's nobody's "fault". It just takes time to make deals with international partners, and those deals couldn't even get started until we had North America wrapped up. You seem to think some kind of foot-dragging or incompetence was involved. That's not the case. Negotiating contracts is a time-consuming process. The companies involved want to do research, debate the offer internally, compare the costs and benefits of doing Pirates vs. the other projects they're being offered, and blah blah blah. That's just business. We couldn't delay North America while we pursued Europe, so we had to move forward here.

You might as well ask the same question about Australia, Korea, Japan, China, Singapore, and so on. We don't have deals to announce for any of those countries. We're working on all of them. Some will fall through, some will pan out. All take time.

Who released a pre-order box in the middle of the Christmas window, after SPECIFICALLY stating that they didn't want to release the game at Christmas due to the crush of console titles?

We did and man, am I glad not to be releasing the game during this time frame.

Once we set the launch date of 1/22, our hands were tied as to when the preorder boxes would come out. The retail chains want them within a specific window prior to the real launch, and that put us in October.

The only way we could have pushed the preorder boxes past Christmas would be to push the retail launch until spring. And nope, we're not going to do that.

Who misprinted cards in the pre-order boxes?

See above.

Who hasn't posted a sticky thread explaining that digital downloads will NOT receive the pre-order bonuses?

That would be us. We answer that question all the time and a sticky thread is not a bad idea. We don't really have a forum specifically for retail-related issues where such a sticky belongs, however. I'll talk to our community director about that and see what he thinks about consolidating all retail discussion someplace useful and easy to find.

Although I think the preorder page seems pretty straightforward.

Who has not set up information at the link on the pre-order cards explaining what players should do with their codes?

That would be SOE. Given that you can't use them until 1/7, it really hasn't seemed like a priority.

Suggesting that one chain of stores, and their employees, are to blame for a lot of the mess, is just plain nuts.

Have you shopped for a PC game in the last two years that wasn't Bioshock, Half-Life 2, or World of Warcraft? Dedicated game retailers make their best money on used console games. That's what gets the wall space. When I went into my nearest games retailer recently, PC titles were relegated to one side of a half-height bookcase and all the titles were shelved spine-out instead of face-out. There was no distinction between new and older and budget titles. The PC games market is not doing very well, with a handful of high-profile exceptions, and games retailers are making their money and putting their focus elsewhere. I understand this and that's the reality we have to work with.

And again, as I said earlier, SOE is not EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. It's an uphill climb for us.

Is any of that actually nuts? This is just how the world works.

From early May, when they signed a marketing and distribution partner, until now, this game could have taken advantage of the PotC movie, pirate conventions held around the country, more gaming shows, magazines, talk like a pirate day, the three release windows, etc, etc. Instead, they've waited until Christmas. Wasted opportunity, if you ask me.

We spent the spring, summer, and early fall attending one large event after another. We went to regional LAN tournaments, PAX, GenCon, San Diego ComiCon, New York ComiCon, E3, GDC, and a load of other shows where thousands of people got to play the game, ask us questions, and learn more about what we're up to. We haven't been sitting in a cave all this time.

Mainstream advertising to people who have never heard of us -- meaning ads in magazines and on sites like IGN -- is waiting until those people can actually do something with the information. Anything prior to that is just a teaser.

I'd been used to FLS being a very open, and honest, developer with their fans. Over the last few months, though, I believe that's changed a bit. Those two specific answers felt like corporate "spin", and it disappointed me. Based on prior experiences with them, I expected better from that group of developers.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just a guy trying to answer your angry questions instead of getting other work done, and for all I know I'm wasting my time because you're going to be angry regardless of what I say. But I've been answering angry questions about this game -- and friendly ones as well -- for five years and I'm not stopping now.

These guys are the most open  team I've ever known...even if the news is bad. I really can't understand where the anger comes from, unless its the typical "I want it my way and I want it now!" "Entitlement" attitude that seems to be sweeping the nation.

The Dev chat was very open....I've never attended anything similar with the dev teams of the games Rev mentioned...because they do not have to...as he said...they pretty much have the golden ticket. I didn't neccesarily like all of the answers given...I've been following the game for the full 5 years of development, and its changed a LOT over the years...so it stands to reason there are aspects of the game I do not like as much as they once were in its earlier phase of development, however I am impressed that they're answering the questions asked...directly.

You imply some level of malice on the part of FLS...I can't really see where that is coming from, given teh state of PC games. Lets face it, we're a dieing breed. Consoles are cheaper and as powerful as the average PC Rig. Developers love it...they only need to design the game for one to 3 different console systems. PC developers have to plan for god knows how many different possible system configurations...what a nightmare.

I mean no disrespect to FLS when I say this...but they are, at the end of teh day, a small, indy developer....another dieing breed. It is a big deal that they can even do a big box launch, even if it is not getting the attention they'd hoped. This is probably why EA can buy up so many great, indy developers and kill them over time...until it is just "EA's" game (ei Origin Systems to game a related title). For as small as they are, I think they do pretty good, given the obstacles they're gonna run into, as one of the few remaining indy companies coding new PC titles.

First off...angry isn't the right word.  Extremely disappointed, yes.  Angry, no.  I don't get angry about pc games.  Football, maybe, but not pc games (and, since my son was born, even football doesn't get my goat as much).  And second, this isn't about "my way" or "whining".  I asked questions, and then responded to the answers.  I'm just some schmoe at home, reading up on a game.  I have no personal stake in it.  Please don't attribute childish characteristics to me just to undermine my argument. (and the spanking comment was unnecessary)

I was disappointed that, in a dev chat, when asked directly about the issues with distribution, a company that's usually open and honest, passed the responsibility on to another group.  And, honestly, the follow up post here reflects that.  All those "answers" that John just gave, where was any of that in the dev chat?  Obviously, there was a lot of blame to go around, as admitted here, now, but when everyone was watching, the guys at the game store were the only ones blamed.  I find that lame, and I expected better from this company.

And, before we get too deep into this "small time" or "indy" stuff, lets stop fooling ourselves.  SOE is a major distributor, who has the process "down cold" from their "years of experience".  FLS is small and indy, and had they done the distribution themselves, I'd have given them a pass.  But, they didn't.  They hired a big boy...and had problems.  It happens, sure...but no free pass.  SOE and EA are both at the top of the distribution game.  EA may be better...but they are in the same general class.

I am glad to see that there is more responsibility being taken, now, although again, it seems strange none of this was part of the dev chat.  I still think too much blame is being directed at the game stores, who yes, I do shop at.  I find plenty of PC games at Best Buy, Target, Gamestop, EB games, etc...Are they the most popular, no.  Do people there know what they are doing.  Sure.  When I bought City of Heroes years ago, not only were they on the shelves, for all to see, but the staff who sold it to me had played it.  Is there a trend?  Sure.  Is it the reason for all publishing and marketing issues?  By John's own admission, no.  Like when you mention that the preorders needed to come out in October in order to avoid the Christmas crunch.  That' was the plan when you announced SOE.  Yet, come Nov. 1st, no boxes.  Gamestops fault?

Honestly, I don't have time to keep going with this. Family to take care of and all.   Needless to say, some of the stuff in John's response is nice to see, as it takes more responsibililty.  And some of it is still disappointing.  Que sara.  I will say that this is the first time I've heard of an mmo waiting for open beta to put articles in magazines.  It seems like a new strategy, and I'm interested to see how it works.  Good luck. 

Personally I don't get the questions at all, when does a player care about marketing aspects or any aspects other then the game play? I mean ok, cool we want to see more people know about this title so more will be joining. BUT I can use a prime excample of a recent game, unknown to most and now has hit #1 a few times in the PC line for awhile now with no adverstiment till now and that would be Witcher. Best RPG sense Baulders Gate and that say allot! This title now has been selling so well they printed more, who would have thougth word of mouth in the pc world would get anywere?

Hehe , point being, is word of mouth in our world of pc gaming has always been the top way to "get the word out".. While the hype of games such as bioshock etc defintily helped their sales, it also was a fast sale then dead, but games like Witcher keep selling strong because more and more people talk about it.

While I would be one to see your reasoning for intrest in wondering why all these issues in the marketing have been a problem for this dev company , most if not all people that know a bit of anything about this industry know that it is never the dev team who has the say on marketing in the end. Usually the publisher etc that has it.

Their answers and the ones again given pretty much say it all, don't know what more you want to know, seems your looking for something to bark about when there is nothing to bark about. IE why do you really care? can you pre-order? can you get the game in jan? Good enough huh?

Hey, I was again the biggest sceptic of this tile awhile ago, ask anyone in the forums here or even a dev we have had plenty of head butting about not having avatars long ago etc... However after all the interactive treatments, updates, additions these guys really listen to the community, if someone says otherwise they are full of it. Best dev interaction from an actual going to be released title then any I have encountered in my 40 odd years on this green earth. After being in their open stress test, conversing ,arguing and yelling at the devs and them back at me, I have to say. I am impressed.

Marketing will work, word of mouth will make it better, anyone with intrest in the genre will pick it up soon enough once the game is live and they hear about it. They really have a hit here and I think more are realizing it daily. Funny here I am now defending those I use to bash so harshly, eh what can I say, they really did the community and their game proud. Can't wait to play!

PS. first day Pre-order was avalible to do so, I went to my local game stop and pre-ordered and picked up my box with no issues. So for me, it was a fine experiance.

I'm afraid I must agree with bountytaker, FLS are great people and answered any and all questions concerning the game as best they could. However the questions about the publishers responsibilites were side stepped. The trouble is FLS signed their own death warrant when they told us all about how SOE had it down cold and they were going to put boxes on shelves in NA and EU.

If such statements hadn't been made as a response to SOE nay sayers then perhaps there wouldn't be such a ruckuss. Standing up for a company like SOE is akin to putting your wedding tackle in a sleeping lion's mouth then flicking it's balls with a wet towel. We all know the result no matter what you tell us, I think it's best for everyone if FLS just blame SOE and have SOE say nothing and just try to get on with delivering the standard box on time since the pre-orders have gone pear shaped.

If SOE can get a deal signed in the EU and have boxes on shelves in January then the incident may well be forgotten by most. Thankfully there doesn't seem to be any problems with the program and everyone I know that's tried it has had no complaints about bugs or anything. I hope this is the last piece of bad luck FLS will be seeing, and hope the launch goes smoothly after this.

All the SOE hate will bring this game down no matter how good the game is, yes Soe burnt people but get over yourselves.

What chance does a small dev have if it can't get it's product out to a wider base?

The more you bag every game that has anything to with SOE/EA/Vivendi etc the smaller the pool of developers will get and that means less games and less people playing the later being something some of you seem to want.

Crying over the past in a waste of time, yes inform the community what has happened but take each game on its own merit.

Originally posted by Bountytaker

First off...angry isn't the right word.  Extremely disappointed, yes.  Angry, no.  I don't get angry about pc games.  Football, maybe, but not pc games (and, since my son was born, even football doesn't get my goat as much).  And second, this isn't about "my way" or "whining".  I asked questions, and then responded to the answers.  I'm just some schmoe at home, reading up on a game.  I have no personal stake in it.  Please don't attribute childish characteristics to me just to undermine my argument. (and the spanking comment was unnecessary)

 

I was disappointed that, in a dev chat, when asked directly about the issues with distribution, a company that's usually open and honest, passed the responsibility on to another group.  And, honestly, the follow up post here reflects that.  All those "answers" that John just gave, where was any of that in the dev chat?  Obviously, there was a lot of blame to go around, as admitted here, now, but when everyone was watching, the guys at the game store were the only ones blamed.  I find that lame, and I expected better from this company.

 

And, before we get too deep into this "small time" or "indy" stuff, lets stop fooling ourselves.  SOE is a major distributor, who has the process "down cold" from their "years of experience".  FLS is small and indy, and had they done the distribution themselves, I'd have given them a pass.  But, they didn't.  They hired a big boy...and had problems.  It happens, sure...but no free pass.  SOE and EA are both at the top of the distribution game.  EA may be better...but they are in the same general class.

 

I am glad to see that there is more responsibility being taken, now, although again, it seems strange none of this was part of the dev chat.  I still think too much blame is being directed at the game stores, who yes, I do shop at.  I find plenty of PC games at Best Buy, Target, Gamestop, EB games, etc...Are they the most popular, no.  Do people there know what they are doing.  Sure.  When I bought City of Heroes years ago, not only were they on the shelves, for all to see, but the staff who sold it to me had played it.  Is there a trend?  Sure.  Is it the reason for all publishing and marketing issues?  By John's own admission, no.  Like when you mention that the preorders needed to come out in October in order to avoid the Christmas crunch.  That' was the plan when you announced SOE.  Yet, come Nov. 1st, no boxes.  Gamestops fault?

 

Honestly, I don't have time to keep going with this. Family to take care of and all.   Needless to say, some of the stuff in John's response is nice to see, as it takes more responsibililty.  And some of it is still disappointing.  Que sara.  I will say that this is the first time I've heard of an mmo waiting for open beta to put articles in magazines.  It seems like a new strategy, and I'm interested to see how it works.  Good luck. 

I want to sink you...

Originally posted by johntynes

The simple truth is that SOE isn't EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. We don't have the clout those companies have and when we talk, there's no guarantee the retailers will listen. That's not an unusual situation and there's nothing sinister here.

 

And again, as I said earlier, SOE is not EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. It's an uphill climb for us.

 

No offense to you but who would listen to a company that screws up 75% of the games they release?  EQ2, SWG, and EQ1 are some of the more severely affected games.  Try not to let them dick up PotBS, I'm looking forward to getting it someday.

Not an SOE lover by far, the constant bashing for titles that are not screwed up eludes me. EQ?EQ2? if you want to get into technical of game play mechanics that were changed, only SWG went off the deep end and self-imploded. While SOE (mostly those at the top) are responsible for that nightmare, it doesn't effect all these titles that you and many seem to boast. Nothing is wrong with EQ, EQ2 and more, while there could be improvements, they hold their own well and EQ being one of the oldest MMO's out there and still going has to say something.

Again, I don't agree with allot of what SOE has done in the past, but to add to the list of "issue" games that are not even in the reasoning behind SOE demise is just a stretch to make ones own arguments more plausible. SOE is by far not perfect, but show me that EA or any other large corporation is, you and others (even myself) at times knock SOE but in the end, they have kept all of their titles alive and active. Be it not to what you would like, but still they are running, not like others in the past such as EA's one title and other companies who will close the doors on an MMO if it's black mark isn't higher then WoW. While I am far from a fan of this company one thing remains, they do and still are going strong. With this title and others in the horizon, people will play them if they like what is there. There are some I am sure that no matter how tempting the title will not play any affiliated SOE title. Eh their loss, I am here to have fun when I play an MMO, if the game is cool I am in.

And I will beat the punch to those that will make reference of not caring if it is SOE, say it was some known bad company funneling money, well in that case duh, but to this point for SOE screwing up in the past, eh live and learn and move on. They have titles I am interested in playing and so I shall. But this adding of titles that are fine and having nothing to do with the original boycott of SOE is just adding to the rumor mill. If you going to use such examples for your reasoning’s on opinions, at least get it right on the facts. If SOE made you mad for those particular titles because you played them then fine, but don't state it as a statues quos. SWG killed SOE rep and Vanguard topped the cake, to bad Vanguard was blamed on them when it was further from the truth, but they are associated so once a thief always a thief it seems in MMO's. Sad people don't know what forgive and forget is all about.

When it comes down to it will you have fun? If so then play it, if not say why you thought it wasn’t so great etc and move on. After all we are all here looking for a fun MMO no? So do what you like I always say and look beyond the nay sawyers, I was the biggest of this title when it was first announced and I keep telling people this because I was a changed hypocrite of this game and now have pre-ordered in anticipation of playing it. So eh, I will have fun with it no matter if SOE is tied to it or not.