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Jumpgate Evolution - PvP: Conflicts and Considerations
NetDevil Programmer Steve "Istvan" Hartmeyer stops by once more to talk about the upcoming MMORPG, Jumpgate Evolution. In this new developer journal Hartmeyer talks about PvP in the sci-fi game.
The issue of PvP features in Jumpgate Evolution has the appearance of being extremely controversial, making the subject sensitive for the development team to address. Jumpgate Evolution is in many ways derived from Jumpgate Classic, and the original game's community has become extremely agitated over the potential changes coming in the new product. Even before Jumpgate Evolution appeared on the horizon, PvP was a divisive issue for the Jumpgate Classic community. Jumpgate Classic was designed from the start as a PvP game. Its simplistic PvE gameplay was a late-beta addition, nearly an afterthought. For some players, however, the available PvE became a major draw and main point of the game. For many others, PvP combat was simply never interesting or important because other activities and styles of play were more enjoyable.
Discussions of PvP matters in Jumpgate have a tendency to take on aspects of religious warfare. There are two diametrically opposed camps within the Jumpgate community, and there appears to be no dissuading members of either side. One group insists that "No place in the game should be safe from PvP", while the other side demands "Don't push your RP on me." As developers, we absolutely must build our game to appeal to the most customers possible, maximizing commercial success, or we risk inability to offset the costs of development. The PvP issue is so strongly polarizing, however, that the forms of PvP gameplay we provide can powerfully affect the number of customers we might attract. Despite the obvious conflict, we want to build a sound PvP system for Jumpgate Evolution that will satisfy many of the extremists in both camps, while also ensuring there is plenty of room in the game for people who don't wish PvP to be the entirety of their game experience.
Besides consideration of the general appeal of PvP gameplay, other factors significantly influence design decisions when choosing how PvP is regulated. Frequently these factors directly conflict with one another. First of all, PvP must be fun, which implies elements of balance, excitement, and challenge. Accomplishing just these things within a game's context can be demanding for any design team; balance, especially, tends to be where developers spend much of their time and effort. Furthermore, new players must not be chased out of the game by griefers using the PvP system to their advantage. Allowing such things to occur limits a game's potential growth, clearly bad news when trying to make a commercially successful product. The game's context or milieu may also strongly influence the design of a PvP system; for instance, it may mandate certain conflicts while restricting or prohibiting others. As a possible corollary to mandating or restricting PvP, it's also desirable for the means by which this is accomplished to either be realistic, or at least consistent with the game environment, to promote the players' sense of immersion. All these factors, and more, come into play when designing a PvP system, and they have all been topics of design discussions within the Jumpgate Evolution dev team.
Other online games provide many examples of interesting PvP mechanics to choose from or to use as starting points for innovation. We might look first to the example of Jumpgate Classic, Evolution's forerunner: in principle, all players in Jumpgate Classic were at risk from PvP, all the time. There were some minor protections in home areas or station sectors, but those deterrents in no way made those areas safe. EVE Online (CCP), presently the most successful online space-genre game, possesses wholly safe zones, where the mere beginnings of a PvP attack result in artificially effective obliteration for the attacker. From these de facto secure areas, space in EVE is assigned degrees of risk, in which the magically powerful guardian forces are gradually reduced in effectiveness until the player reaches space where the guardians are nonexistent and PvP is routine. Though not a science fiction game, Dark Age of Camelot (Mythic) offered a novel approach by developing the concept of "realm vs. realm" (RvR) PvP, in which players choose to play as a member of one of three nations, all of which are permanently in mutual conflict. DAoC possesses entirely safe homelands, where only PvE is possible, and totally open battlefields, where both directed and spontaneous PvP may take place at will among members of the three nations. Battlegrounds are also available in DAoC for lower-ranking characters who wish to sample PvP but who cannot participate usefully in the open PvP frontiers. NetDevil's own Auto Assault chose a somewhat similar safe-homeland, open battlefield approach, but also included arenas for PvP. The arenas didn't impact the global conflict, but unlike DAoC's junior battlegrounds, they did provide an alternative type of balanced and gank-free PvP that offered a venue for PvP tournament ladders, leaderboards, and stat-tracking.
;)
On the basis of subscription numbers, World of Warcraft (Blizzard) is unquestionably the most successful commercial online game today, so one might presume that designers might find its chosen approach to PvP gameplay informative. Though its design includes only two sides rather than three, World of Warcraft also uses a variant of the RvR PvP idea. However, on standard-gameplay servers, meaning the "normal rules" for which WoW was presumably designed, a player is largely safe from PvP attack. One must deliberately choose to participate in a PvP based instance or contest, or otherwise "flag" oneself as willing to engage in PvP. As with most large commercial games, WoW is sharded, and there are servers with variant rules. WoW happens to also offer "PvP servers" as a shard variant, in which the rules are quite different: although the starting areas are once again entirely safe, the majority of the rest of the game environment is "contested" and open PvP is permitted within the "Alliance vs. Horde" RvR context. Fascinatingly, a server breakdown for WoW in North America and Europe reveals that the division between very limited PvP and mainly open PvP rulesets is very nearly 50/50. This suggests that about half the WoW customers in this region of the world play characters where mainly unrestricted PvP is the norm, and the other half play where PvP is available but solely consensual - which appears to mirror the polarization found within the much smaller Jumpgate community! In both cases, though, some areas of this very popular game's environment are entirely safe, and because the game uses an RvR model, truly open PvP is prohibited with a very few specific exceptions.
We consider PvP gameplay extremely important for Jumpgate Evolution, and are wrestling with the issues outlined here as we continue the development process. World of Warcraft's decision to apply different rules on different shards is highly instructive, given the visible polarization of attitudes among our potential customers, but we haven't quite given up on design ideas that have the possibility of making different rule sets unnecessary. Ultimately, we aim to deliver a deep game where PvP is only one of many attractive activities for players, but we want that PvP experience to be fun and satisfying enough that the players who choose to devote themselves to it completely will remain just as entertained and enthralled as anyone else.
Good post.
The biggest problem of JGE to tackle is its own JGC community.
JGC was hardcore PVP game - in true PVP spirit of Shadowbane or UO. And its old community expects JGE to be the same.
But games with such hardcore pvp are not usually comercially succesful. JGC was a struggling game just like Shadowbane , or the latest example Fury.
To be succesful JGE has to blend PVE and PVP in a unique way
And old JGC community is very likely to come short and furious over this.
But its the only way for JGE to become mainstream and not niche game.
I am interested in the PvE and not the PvP.
PvP is one of the reasons that Eve Online is not as large as it could be.
PvE is one of the reasons why WoW is as successful as it is.
Earth and Beyond was very successful because it was PvE and if EA had not bought Westwood I am willing to bet that it would still be around today.
If you want to have PvP in the game make it optional. That is the best way. The next choice is to have certain high reward areas that would draw people to them as PvP only areas. Not as effective but at least middle ground.
If this game is going to be major PvP then I am not interested in it anymore.
They should be watching what's happening in POTBS. The lack of PVP and overall PVP design is creating some problems for the PVPr's, some are already leaving.
I hope they don't make the same mistake of ignoring Solo PVP. Auto Assaults PVP design was a disaster.
As a long time EVE player I'm eagerly following Jumpgate's development.
EVE does not possess 'wholly safe' zones. While pvp'ers in those zones sacrifice their ships if they attack anyone, it's much more common than one would believe. Suicide ganking in high security space is a very profitable profession in eve; by catching lazy empire haulers laden with high end minerals, loot, manufacturing materials its possible to make billions off a single kill, which is certainly worth suiciding a ship for.
A spatial separation between PvP and non-PvP areas appears to be the way to go, e.g. we have the "core sections" which are so heavily guarded by NPC police and AI defence systems that not even the most skilled solo PvPer can cause serious havoc; and the "frontier" sectors where basically "everything goes". So non-PvP, "carebear" players can go about their businesses in almost complete safety (from unconsensual PvP at least).
I'm not a PvPer myself - in almost all MMOGs I've played so far I somehow ended up spending a good deal of my time mining or hauling stuff - but even I like the feeling of danger, not to know what lurks in the next sector, or just outside my radar range.
JGE has a somewhat unique opportunity to re-define PvP in a MMO due to the true skill based combat.
Unlike EVE, or the classic SWG, or the founding UO, where the "skill" systems were merely use based skill leveling (or leveling over time of skills); JGE is truly "twitch" based skill.
So indeed a "noob" who is a hot hand with his/her joystick can and SHOULD be able to compete with the grizzled veteran spacer.
Looking at what has been successful, and where other modern titles under construction are going, the idea of shards with varying rule sets is most likely the most well received and profitable solution.
1. You need to have PvE oriented servers where PvP is either purely consensual (i.e. entering a specific instanced area) or a toggle of some sort. Be it guild vs. guild conflicts, it's still a form of a PvP toggle. Be it specific PvP missions or star systems, it's still a form of toggle.
2. You also need to have more PvP oriented servers where PvP is consensual only because you chose that server type. These still need to have "safe" areas such as home worlds/star systems. Even the hardcore PvPer wants to take a break and chat, sell loot, repair etc. in relative safety.
My suggestion for this type of server would be a faction based system. Not only does it create a sense of belonging which adds greatly to immersion, but it garauntees even the solo PvPer some backup and assistance.
On the other hand, the sci-fi space based universe lends itself greatly for the role of Pirate. Lawless, solo PKs who who just want to watch the world burn and get rich in the process.
This is fine, this kind of FFA element, but the ONE thing you HAVE to do to make FFA work is make the consequences of choosing the "dark" path very severe. Just the fact that because you attack anyone, anyone can attack you is NOT enough consequence for the PK. You have to make the role of anti-PK much more lucrative and valuable then the role of PK, for starters. Otherwise, you'll end up just like UO were the ganker/griefer ruled the day.
For FFA to work you have to make players really have to think about whether or not they should attack another player. If just given the option to attack, many will because they have no fear of retaliation or just consequence. This has been the #1 problem with all FFA PvP games.
It's hard to make players feel the consequences of their devious action in a MMO. It's just a game, why not kill that poor noob and steal his hard earned stuff? Or simple kill him for fun!
To do FFA PvP you need harsh consequences for the PK, and very, very lucrative rewards for the Anti-PK. I garauntee you'll still get plenty of PKs, but (hopefully) you'll also get enough Anti-PKs to balance things out.
Sometimes the arguments on the JGC and JGE boards can give a false impression of the game enviroment. For the most part the PVE players and the PVP players are the same people who divide their their time between both activities. You can't make a living PVPing only so almost all PVPers have to get involved in the other aspects of the game, and almost all PVE players have at one time or another tried PVP.
Most of the play going on at any one time is PVE and the players can go about their lives quite safely, but it's true you are never entirely safe and despite the penalties sometimes you are attacked for political reasons or just for the hell of it. People perceived as greifers are generally hunted down by the PVPers or by traders and haulers who get into fighting ships. This together with the economic hit means that its relatively rare, but the vocal reaction to it can make it appear much more common than it is.
I have played this game for 6 years, most of the time as a PVPer, I have around 600 kills thats about 100 a year, this game is not "Quake in Space" you can PVP for hours and not get a kill sometimes, which makes them when they come all the sweeter.
Despite this I would not be interested in a PVP only game, the ability and necessity of PVE give the game depth. OK if it's needed make certain areas safer in JGE but not completly safe as in Eve. But when you've got half the peeps complaining that the penalties for a rip are too high and half complaining that they are too low you've probably got it about right.
PS. In my opinion they are probably a little too high at the moment as Pirating is almost gone and some pure PVPers are voting with their feet, I dont see the PVE guys going.
I suspect that type of "gaming the game" will be squashed in Eve, much like all the other high sec exploits of the past were.
Would be nice to see no safe zones whether being RvR or FFA especially because controls will be twitched based.
Hardly..
And yeah.. the developers of a space MMO not 100% understanding eve is pretty epic fail in my books
I kind of like the Ideal of space cops if your hauling for a group or doing questing for a company they should provide the security. Dont mean you wont get pirated but at least you have someone covering your escape and or butt.And if I had a business or company I would surely provide said security in my zone.
So why coudnt NPC do the same.The real world is not totaly safe but we do feel protection from are laws and police.I believe.
I dont want to have a game were I cant take chances,But I wouldnt want a free pass If I decided to become one with the universe's ten most wanted list.
Random thoughts from a random type of guy.
I would like to see something like a freelancer type experience - crossed with th RvR they mentioned.
So say I could do trade runs deep in freindly territory for medium profit with low risk of attack. Or maybe I could smuggle stuff through disputed territory for high profit with high risk of attack.
Then if I expect to get paid enough on the trip I could hire some protection to defend me.
As long as there is some way to rate the protection services so I know if I am hiring good people.
From the FFA pvp vs PvE - the main reason I see for the big division between the two groups - whilst both are paying to play the game, PvE players dont interfere in the PvP players fun, but FFA PvP can seriously interfere in the PvE players fun.
so what was the point of all that verbiage?
we learned absolutely nothing about how either PVP or PVE is going to be handled
not a surprise of course because that is usually what we get from the reports, news items, dev chats blah blah blah on this site
I'm sure it's been said above, but the answer appears obvious to me, multiple servers:
1) Pure PvE, no PvP at all
2) Balanced PvE with PvP that is faction based (or consensual duelling type thing)
3) Pure PvP, no PvE at all
Personally, I wouldn't be interested in #1, but may well wish to have at least one character on each of #2 and #3, probably favouring #2.
Whatever the decision, Jumpgate Evolution is sounding like one of the most innovative MMORPGs in production and I'm looking forward to it. So enough chatting, get on with developing it!
In the earliest days of Jumpgate Classic, there were no safe zones, and it didn't work. Certain players would literally camp right outside the exit ports of the starting space stations, and gank noob pilots immediately after they launched to space for the first time.
At lot of times, in the chat channels, you could tell that the noobs didn't even really understand what had happened before they were dead.
NetDevil asked the gankers to stop, explaining that it only hurt the game as a whole by discouraging new players, but it didn't stop.
JGC started losing new players in droves, and the policy of "PvP everywhere, all time" had to be top-down modified pretty quickly thereafter.
I don't like the concept of having multiple independant servers for the game (example: WoW).
I like to be able to "see" anybody who is playing the game (example: Eve, Guild Wars). If they didn't authorize to travel from a certain server type to another, that would bug me.
So I'd really like they try to sort it out., without resorting to not-fully satisfying solutions like multiple server-types.
I think Eve Online would be more successful if it was a little more noob friendly. Also, Eve is a space game. If it was a swords-and-sorcery game, there'd probably be more subscriptions (not that I'd want that personally: Eve is perfect as it is for me^^ I'm just saying).
I think these are the real reasons why Eve is not that successful, not because it's PvP-oriented.
If they make JGE a PvP-oriented sandbox game like Eve (= with quasi-safe zones for PvE players (or PvP players who need a break)), and make it easier to get into, I think many people might be drawn and stick to it.
Making a game oriented for PvE players and adding just the minimum to make PvP players play the games is not the suitable solution. OK, PvE players may play the game if it's good enough. But PvP players are just too picky ^^ and will get sick of the lack of liberty rather quickly.
Very true, as a PvP type of player, I cannot stand a game where I do not have full range ion where I can PvP. I am picky about that :).
The usual rabies soaked fanboys whining over why they newer game won't be as hardcore. Honestly do they think that a game is going to be successful if it only allows all but a few of the elite being able to play? Any normal mmo player is going to go for that. They want a fun enjoyable experience not some mountain dew code red induced laser trauma fest. Learn to enjoy and respect the pve/pvp balance because that's usually what the majority favor.
First off, this aticle is a total waiste of time. They didn't clarify ONE thing they were going to do in pvp. Just a bunch of gibberish about PVP in other games and the fact some people like it and some don't
What a freaking waiste of time reading that.
2nd to the comment EVE is a "epic fail"
Are you living in some bazzaro universe or something? Eve is going very strong, more populated then ever, with MUCH more releasing in the future (like walking avatars). Eve is a very well designed game with so many different areas you can get into. It is very Epic, but I don't see your fail. The graphics in eve are stunning with the Trinity upgrade. Infact all the free upgrades and expansions have been strong.
Eve is by far the most advanced game structure from the industry/market to all the different aspects of combat. They even have a real economist working studying the market to give reports on.
Eve's pvp system is the best I've seen in a MMO and EVE does what NO OTHER mmo can. Has all it's people on the SAME SERVER.
Nice book report, it read like something I wrote in high school.
Hopefully later we might actually get some facts.
Not just a breakdown of PvP in other games.
Aspirant
1 and 3 wouldnt work imo in JG.. Most old JG players did both PVP and PVE. Most did do mining, and hauling and kill "monsters/aliens", even if they were seen as PVPers. Lets just say it wouldnt be Jumpgate if there was Pure PVP and pure PVE servers.. The story would contradict the game ..
2. Wouldnt play that game, tried Potbs, and while its kind of cool being a pirate, its to safe, it lacks much more PVP.
I do support a sort of like EVE system..
Failing to see how EVE is a holy grail that posters above imgainge themself to be... anyway.
The best would be JGC pre MTpatch system.. with some minor modifications.. So look innwards before you start looking out for answers.
Amazing that some posters lack the ability to read into an article such as this. If its not listed in straight forward prose they just can't understand or infer from it.
Here's what I learned. JE will not have totally unrestricted PVP like the original one did. This is news to me, and I'm glad to hear it. I do like to PVP, but I like how EVE has implemented it.
We know that Netdevil is working hard to come up with a new model for PVP/PVE balance that will draw from, but try not to copy previously successful PVP models.
They want the game to succeed financially, so they will be trying to cater to all sorts of customers, both PVE and PVP. (also news to me). So that means there's a better chance for a healthy population and a more interesting game.
I also learned that they realize their hardcore PVP Jumpgate crowd numbers in ....the hundreds perhaps, while their potential market of players who've never heard of Jumpgate is in the millions. Guess which market they're going to try and target?
I'm really interested in this title I just wish I played the original Jumpgate which I never have.
I understand both sides of the argument on PvP and both sides have legitimate reasons.
I have argued in the past on other mmorpg titles and stated alot of facts on PvP. Many die-hard PvPers use scripting programs or what others call hacking, cheating whatever you want to call it, this is a fact not fantasy.
No matter what security features a company puts in place to make an attempt at stopping players from scripting there's always a work around, period.
It can never be stopped and no matter how loud someone screams that they don't use hacks they are usually the ones who do.
But enough of that here is an example of what gaming companies should implement and it's more than feasible.
Run multiple servers, some servers for pure PvP, some for PvP and PvE combined and some strictly for PvE. Then you satisfy every customer and greatly enlarge your subscriber base, simple as 1,2,3.
It has been done with past online games so a company that claims it is not possible is a company that is lazy as all hell.
Can't use JGC as a useful measuring stick for a good way to do PvP.
An all PvE server COULD work in JGE.
An all PvP server would be JGC, limiting the game to the tiny community that JGC has.
PvE + PvP obviously is the way to go, with *safe* PvE areas. That has the broadest appeal.
Humors me to see people say things like "I can't understand why people would want to play a MMO only to PvE?" Talk about a narrow mind. Its easily reversible to: "I can't understand why people would want to play a MMO only to PvP?" After all, any number of games (such as freelancer and JGC!) already fill the space PvP niche quite well, and if all else fails, could always play Eve and live in 0.0 space.
I dont have a problem with open PvP. I like the way WoW does it. You get killed by a player, you lose nothing but time going back to you body from the graveyard. The person who killed you, gets honor points, if withing a certain level span, otherwise nothing.
If the penalties for dieing by another player are harsh, forget it. If you die by an NPC, yes, penalties should be harsh to some extent.
I admit, I have ganked lower characters just for the fun of it. The problem is, they anounce it on global chat and within minutes, I am getting my *&^$ handed to me by higher level characters. I rez and get the heck out of Dodge.
You dont need huge rewards for killing other players. Maybe medals, recognition and or experience, depending on the level spread. When you start losing your hard earned cash and items to PvP, it kills the fun in the game.
Call me a carebear, I dont care. I play to have fun and losing everything to someone who has a bigger, more powerful ship and a much higher level than you are, is no fun.
If jump gate follows its roots pvp wise or follows EVEs example I will probably fall in love with the game, I loved the original but it got old, but if it ends up as a massive carebear fest I will most likely avoid it as I like to play games for the challenge of fighting real intelligent and adaptive opponents, ie other people.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with PVE or carebearism and each to their own but fighting the same pre programmed bots over and over just doesn't interest me and that's why I don't play MMOs in general I only play EVE. If i want to fight blobs of NPCs in space there is always the X series or Darkstar one but they didn't occupy my interest for long and the same will go for jump gate if there is not decent semi FFA pvp.
EVE is the minimum example they should follow imo.
Fanboy much? I hate to be the wise-guy here, but if you read the post you are trying to flame, Eve was NEVER called an 'epic fail'. In contrary, the 'epic fail' comment was that if a developer is working on a space MMO, without fully understanding the Eve model, then that developer is failing. In easy-to-follow words, that comment was complimenting Eve for being the 'role-model' for any new space-based MMOs.
But, you obviously would rather jump to the defense of Eve rather than understand what was actually said.
And for the record, many people, myself included, have played Eve for a long time, and recognize it as one of the most unbalanced and exploitable games in MMO history. 95% of its PVP is blob or be blobbed. Seriously, it has the worst balance of risk vs reward I've seen in any title.
Perhaps JGE will find something truly unique to balance the PVP/PVE equation. I hope for solid outlets for both. While I trend to favor PVP for, I commonly opt to take the role of Industrialist for the sake of my guild/clan in whatever game we play, so I do enjoy a nice balance that I can do both at some time or another.
Im not.. Im basing my arguments on the Storyline(atleast what we got so far) of JGE. The 3 nations are designed to compete and fight each other. If they wanted a fully PVE game then they wouldnt need 3 different playable factions that hold grudges to eachother. Netdevil even had a contest on JGE forums, Smack talking other nations. Its just a little hint that they arent designed to hold hands and sing song while fighting against conflux together.. They would need one faction only, and you could fight the conflux. Thats Full PVE game. Also it was stated by the producer, that the player will eventually choose foes and friends to their liking. So you wont have to be enemies of other factions.
I ofcourse only want 1 servertype aswell.. But it will come down to what kind of safezones they implement. Freelancer is not a mmo.. Eve is not twitch based.. JGC is just to old. And we have been waiting for an upgrade for years.
Anyway.. PVP will be the heart of JGE. Theres nothing like competing against a real human being.. No NPC can replace that. Atleast I hope so.
I was disapointed with the article. It just kinda stated the obvious and discussed what other games have.
I know what other games have. Where's the info on Jumpgate?
NPC AI could easily be written to wipe the floor with any player in a space game. But their egos aren't bruised when they die, and that takes the "fun" out of killing them for some people. You can never make the AI give up in frustration and cancel its subscription. Where's the fun in killing them then?
...
Because it'd be more of a challenge than kllling any player would. But then, PvP in JGC and the rest of the games isn't about challenge for the most part, its about imposing your will on others. 6 on 1 battles require no effort or skill. Whether the victim is player or NPC, they have little to no chance of winning. So why is it important that the victim be a player?
As far as JGE story line goes, the 3 nations are not at war with each other in JGE. That right there says something to me. Quants won't be automatic victims of sol's, etc. Some players WANT all other players to always be legit targets, but that's not what the devs are going for.
Adding the minimum so that PvE players can play the game is also not good enough. As a PvE player, I bypassed the new games in the last 2 years because the PvE content appeared to be limited. In some worlds PvE players had no access to the higher level content, equipment or resources.
Games really need to cater for both PvP and PvE if you do not want to limit your customer base. The challenge for developers is to do this in a way that does not handicap one style of play at the expense of the other.
I havent played JG in 6 years but didnt the server assign a bounty for players that killed non PvP flagged ships? I really like that system I would like to think that anything can happend in the MMO world. Granted I would think newb zones should have more protection from grievers like more security forces around hometown stations. Either way I think having a tough Bounty system in place would make griever think twice and give the good players a incintive to track down and destroy the bad guys and get a nice reward in the end. Griever should hurt financially and perhaps be put in some kind of timeout if they kill a non pvp ship and someone collects their bounty.
But of course a bounty system is highly exploitable and very easy to abuse. The moment a player has a bounty worth the trouble on his/her head, just switch to an expendable ship, get a buddy to blow you up, collect bounty, divide credits. Voilá, instant cash.
If anything, I see this as further encouragement for the gank squad.
I agree, the article holds very little hard facts on what JGE will be like, it remains very vague. It is very nice to read that they plan to accommodate both PvE and PvP players in an environment both will be in favor of. But I would require some more hard facts on how exactly they plan to pull that miracle off, before I can work up some enthusiasm.
My 2 cents:
If game designers decision are based in community thoughts, finally you will gave another EvE with small improvements. The problem is that you can't be better than EvE if you don't invest more money than them. There are so many faulty WoW like games that I'm a little upset with that filosofy "I copy and improve a successful idea".
What would be the best option to obtain a success game? Please, forget previous games and do a funny game, dont try to build a world similar to.... Just create a game where hardcore and casuals users enjoy the daily 30 minutes or three hours dedicated to the game. One example of this is CoD4 I only play two or three times per week during one hour or two and I can be the first of my round, it's funny for everyone. Ok it's not realistic everybody respawn inmediatly but... is funny.
I dont want a real game, I have the real world for that, I want a imaginarium place to enjoy playing alone at times or against others humans players others times.
My ideal game could be for PvE fulfil my childhood fantasies xDDD, be alone in the space with my personal ship and my IA NPCs and do incredible and beautiful missions, I prefer short but fantastic pve game (please dont send me to the next galaxy just to take a piece of engine and come back). And for the PvP stances where I can demonstrate that I'm the best pilot of the space and kill that stupid boy that is telling me in the voice channel that girls aren't good pilot
Please designers surprise me with this game, do a funny game.
"Hard" AI usually cheats and uses abilities a player cannot use, in most cases you can learn how to beat them or find a game mechanic that allows you to defeat them or if the AI is truly bonkers you cannot do anything and then its not a case of player skill its just impossibly scripted AI.
Some people probably do like pvp to make people miserable but the truth is why do people play games with pvp and then bawl their eyes out when they get killed? it just doesn't make sense.
Still more then 50% of the WoW players play on PvP servers. This means at least something.
Greetz
To me, empire space is pretty safe.
Unless you are already a semi verteran player and fly in very very expensive ships with very very expensive fittings, or hauling loads of stuff in a T1 transport, you wont be targetted.
Besides that, I have not yet heard of player suiciding in 0.7 0.8 0.9 or 1.0 ( well it can happen, but they dont actually gain anything cause they need a very strong ship, cause concord is alot stronger in here then in 0.5 )
I hear about 0.5 suicide ganks, maybe even 0.6
So yah, normally empire space is pretty safe, especially for newbie players.
Greetz
Just want to add that there are enough PvE games, the need for a good polished twitch based PvP sandbox is there.
One of the main reasons why EVE does not get THAT much players is because of the boring combat mechanics, not the PvP system.
That does not mean that there should be total unrestricted PvP, there should be safe zones, and layered security, with factional reprecussions, etc.
I also want 1 server for all, like EVE, it is the most interesting solution.
Greetz
Well I'm one of those polarised types that has a strong view toward one camp that being PvE. I'm a PvE player and have played EnB and loved it, I have also played Eve and thats a love hate relationship for me. I love the game but hate the PvP and what its done to the game. The one server for all idea is a pipe dream, Eve can't even get it to work. Tried a Fleet Battle lately, it doesn't work and in a game where ship inputs are coming from a joystick it won't work at all. You'll need multiple separate servers, which means limiting numbers per server.
If you want to draw me to JGE then you have to provide me a PvE varient, consensual PvP only regardless of the zone I'm in. I don't want to be restricted to "Safe" zones because obviously the good stuff will be out where I would have to subject myself to PvP players. Use this method and PvE players are relegated to being second class inhabitants of the game, I'll be paying to play the game like any other subscriber so I should be able to enjoy the entire map area to play in. That doesn't mean making myself the entertainment for the PvP player base, if they want to get their jollies ganking players then they can do so with each other and I'll be more than happy to sell them the ammo to do so, just don't expect me to participate in it.
I have an account on JGC and am a member of a PvE Squad, I haven't built up the funds to build my own station yet but I'm getting there, I hope this aspect of the game carries over. I would also like to see mobile avatars since it would add an element that is currently lacking in other space sims. JGC has some of the classiest subscribers in the gaming Verse. I'm certain with JGE that won't be the case since the object is to draw in new players so a PvE server or consensual only PvP is going to be an absolute must to get me and those like me to be long term residents.
Perhaps try to make the 50% PvP-Players happy or the 50% PVE-Players.So dont try to make all of us happy cause this is not possible.
As a PvP-Player i want meaningful PvP... fights over resources stations etc. PvE Players dont want this. Decide but please dont make some mixed crap. The reason i dont play wow anymore is cause they fucked it up that way. PvP-Server with Arena PvP sucks. I started WoW hoping being able to fight against the undeads in their capital.
I loved Shadowbane... and this game wouldnt even be worth a look if you would take the pvp away. Why cant there be an developer studio having the balls to make a real PvP game without having bad graphics or nothing beyond this?
I played JGC in beta and after it went gold for a while...
In beta for example, I remember the epic battles between Solrain Guard and friends -vs - Cruentious Legio.. Amazingly fun PvP with the RP to back it up.. Territory claimed and incredible battles to reclaim that space.... Pirates with PoD (Pay or Die).. demanding credits to allow you to pass. They gave you a chance and maybe you would get lucky and a patrol of "good guys" would jump into sector.. chasing off the Pirate.
Win or lose it was pure fun.. and for those who have never played JGC... a loss can be an extreme set back in finances, time and capability it was still great fun and no one blinked or whined for the most part as it was RP, Mostly consensual PvP vs warring squads or combatants and in a way honorable combat.
That was beta and early Gold..
Once the game went gold and the little Johnnies of the world joined the game and leveled a bit.. the tempo, the flavor of the game changed.. PvP became tube camping and gate camping.. Newb bashing and taunting.. people left in droves
I too was disappointed and chose to leave JGC.. PvP is fine.. but like many if not most games with open PvP, it became for the most part griefing.
I make no statements or judgements about the current JGC PvP community as I havent played in a long while but for JGE to become a commercial success and for those servers to become and stay populated something has to change.
I dont think strict PVE will work, the element of danger is important.. its NOT PVP that people dislike, it's ganking and griefing.. it's indiscriminate PK ..
I would suggest limited safe areas.. with a true.. and effective deterent to senseless killing.. many have been suggested.. just hope the version that eventually finds it's way into JGE... Works cause face it folks.. without a diverse player base.. JGE.. will look like JGC does empty, with deserted stations and the same reletively few players active most of the time.
Here is to the Dev's best efforts.. looking forward to hearing more.
Something that seems to have been swept under the rug is the penalty for PvP death.
PvP in WoW is widely successful because the only penalty is the 3 minutes it takes to run back to your corpse. You either win honor or lose 3 minutes. It's a more than reasonable gamble to take.
PvP in games like EVE and JGC had a harsher death penalty; namely, the loss of all of your equipment. Now, both games have monetary insurance, and it functions similarly in both, but as one who had a pair of S3 artifact engines back in the day, the cost of death (pvp or otherwise), was incredibly high. Whenever I used them, I had this nagging feeling that if I crashed or got killed, I'd never have another pair again; I wasn't willing to hunt artifacts for weeks on end again, and I couldn't afford to buy them from someone else. Because of this, there was always far more PvP going on in the simulator than out in space.
Just as important as how to design your PvP system is what you decide will be the death penalty.
This,
Thats what makes EVE so awesome, the actual pvp gameplay isn't that great and neither is the pvp anything remotely fair or contest like and that's why some "PvPers" don't like EVE pvp. EVE pvp matters because your fighting for something, sometimes its as visceral as fighting to deprive someone of their stuff or your the one protecting your stuff and then you come to the space holding alliances who battle for resources and territory.
If you want to play a team contest try TF2 or COD4 if you want real pvp that matters you want something like EVE and I hope the reborn jumpgate keeps to its roots.