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Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Forum » General Discussion » If something needs to be the main focus, it's this...

12 posts found
  Valrak40k

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/13
Posts: 67

 
OP  7/25/13 10:39:14 AM#1

INFANTRY COMBAT!

 

Now that I have that off my chest let me delve into why Infantry combat needs to be the main focus of this game.

 

I want to first discuss what it means playing Warhammer, I have to hold my hands up and say I haven't really played Table Top (TT from now on) for the last 5 years, I've recently got back into the hobby and discovered some huge changes (One being the Necrons now have personalities of Napoleonic Officers who drink wine and offer terms), which in some ways have made the game more fun. Recently Games-Workshop released the Armageddon rulebook which features some insane stuff, it makes it more ‘my tanks has a huge cannon versus but I have three of them in a flying duck formation.’

 

Having vehicles in TT is good, it shows that you have a good army and can counter players tactics but at the end of the day it’s the infantry units that bring the glory, I’m talking about your scouts, Marines, Guardsmen etc, these are the units that win battles, these are the units that give you the bragging rights to slander and mock your friends force. Can any TT players really argue that taking out your enemy HQ or wiping a squad from the game with infantry units doesn’t make you feel like Creed smoking a badass cigar?

 

This kind of focus, enjoyment and achievement of killing players via infantry needs to be the core of the game; it has to make you feel like you’re the ultimate badass. Some people may find this post and think I hate vehicles or suck at flying, tanking etc, let me stop you before you post a hate filled response on why my disloyalty to the Emperor should have me cast down into the Eternal fires. I’m a huge fan of getting a team of tanks, planes, jets etc together and hitting the enemy hard but you have to look at what this game is, this is Warhammer 40K (Maybe Sparta?!) and to have the main focus taken away from infantry would just turn this game into a Planet Side 2 clone, plus in some areas it will abuse the lore so bad it would have Matt Ward giving a thumbs down.

 

The DEVs have already stated that they are taking inspiration from a few games, one being Planetside 2. Planetside had a rough ride at the start with vehicles but it has improved, it still has some problems but they’re slowly getting there. What I fear the most is that this game will copy the mechanic of Planetside 2, the DEVs stated there will be some kind of resource, but I fear the abuse of this resource and the forming of mass tank/aircraft ‘Zergs’ you see in Planetside 2. I have rarely come across open ground where two armies have met in Infantry combat and battled it out to the last man. When I have encountered infantry combat it speedly descended into tank/air rush leaving the infantry to hide in cover, run out and get annulated or re-spawn and bring back their own tank/air vehicle. You see this kind of behaviour in nearly every facility in Planetside 2, you can’t blame the player because all they’re doing is using the tools they’re given but when you have 30+ tanks camped outside a facility with the infantry unable to step out of the spawn room due to the mass spam of tank rounds it becomes annoying very fast.

 

In Eternal Crusade this has to change, we need players charging players, mass armies steaming into each other’s ranks, chainswords, flamers, powers fists – all kinds of melee weapons decapitating anything they meet. This is the kind of stuff that makes you feel like a badass, gives glory for you army, taking another players life by leaving their body a smouldering wreck from a Melta or taking off their head with the swing of your weapon gives more satisfaction and achievement than sitting in a tank or aircraft up on hill shooting down upon players from a hill in the distance.

 

I think vehicles should play a vital role in Eternal Crusade, you need to get from Point A to point B but taking the resource points, battling the NPC stuff should be down to the Infantry and the squads of players.

 

Thanks for the read, I hope other people share the same views as me.

 

Chapter Master Valkr

www.battle-brothers.net

 

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

7/25/13 10:54:09 AM#2
Originally posted by Valrak40k

INFANTRY COMBAT!

 

Now that I have that off my chest let me delve into why Infantry combat needs to be the main focus of this game.

 

I want to first discuss what it means playing Warhammer, I have to hold my hands up and say I haven't really played Table Top (TT from now on) for the last 5 years, I've recently got back into the hobby and discovered some huge changes (One being the Necrons now have personalities of Napoleonic Officers who drink wine and offer terms), which in some ways have made the game more fun. Recently Games-Workshop released the Armageddon rulebook which features some insane stuff, it makes it more ‘my tanks has a huge cannon versus but I have three of them in a flying duck formation.’

 

Having vehicles in TT is good, it shows that you have a good army and can counter players tactics but at the end of the day it’s the infantry units that bring the glory, I’m talking about your scouts, Marines, Guardsmen etc, these are the units that win battles, these are the units that give you the bragging rights to slander and mock your friends force. Can any TT players really argue that taking out your enemy HQ or wiping a squad from the game with infantry units doesn’t make you feel like Creed smoking a badass cigar?

 

This kind of focus, enjoyment and achievement of killing players via infantry needs to be the core of the game; it has to make you feel like you’re the ultimate badass. Some people may find this post and think I hate vehicles or suck at flying, tanking etc, let me stop you before you post a hate filled response on why my disloyalty to the Emperor should have me cast down into the Eternal fires. I’m a huge fan of getting a team of tanks, planes, jets etc together and hitting the enemy hard but you have to look at what this game is, this is Warhammer 40K (Maybe Sparta?!) and to have the main focus taken away from infantry would just turn this game into a Planet Side 2 clone, plus in some areas it will abuse the lore so bad it would have Matt Ward giving a thumbs down.

 

The DEVs have already stated that they are taking inspiration from a few games, one being Planetside 2. Planetside had a rough ride at the start with vehicles but it has improved, it still has some problems but they’re slowly getting there. What I fear the most is that this game will copy the mechanic of Planetside 2, the DEVs stated there will be some kind of resource, but I fear the abuse of this resource and the forming of mass tank/aircraft ‘Zergs’ you see in Planetside 2. I have rarely come across open ground where two armies have met in Infantry combat and battled it out to the last man. When I have encountered infantry combat it speedly descended into tank/air rush leaving the infantry to hide in cover, run out and get annulated or re-spawn and bring back their own tank/air vehicle. You see this kind of behaviour in nearly every facility in Planetside 2, you can’t blame the player because all they’re doing is using the tools they’re given but when you have 30+ tanks camped outside a facility with the infantry unable to step out of the spawn room due to the mass spam of tank rounds it becomes annoying very fast.

 

In Eternal Crusade this has to change, we need players charging players, mass armies steaming into each other’s ranks, chainswords, flamers, powers fists – all kinds of melee weapons decapitating anything they meet. This is the kind of stuff that makes you feel like a badass, gives glory for you army, taking another players life by leaving their body a smouldering wreck from a Melta or taking off their head with the swing of your weapon gives more satisfaction and achievement than sitting in a tank or aircraft up on hill shooting down upon players from a hill in the distance.

 

I think vehicles should play a vital role in Eternal Crusade, you need to get from Point A to point B but taking the resource points, battling the NPC stuff should be down to the Infantry and the squads of players.

 

Thanks for the read, I hope other people share the same views as me.

 

Chapter Master Valkr

www.battle-brothers.net

 

 

This man speaks the truth

Planetside 2 open field battles are dominated by tank armies (more than aircraft, because there is a learning curve for aircrafts that there isn't with tanks, so people dont zerg with it as much)

I have said in another thread, I hate tank zergs in planetside 2, they feel silly, are overpowered and leave no room for infantry combat

I really really hope that they put a cap (or a really high cost with the need for special skills to pilot one and the need to have more than 1 person crewing it to be of full use (LIKE YOU KNOW, PLANETSIDE 1 YOU BLOODY SONY) or something like it on 40k, tanks should be valuable assets that can SUPPORT an offensive,  not your average joe sedan

 

Valkr, how do you see your chapter? I want to join battle brothers but I fear that it requires commitment that im not inclined to give right now

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1484

7/25/13 10:56:58 AM#3
This game better not be like planetside 2.  I enjoy playing planetside, by it has many flaws and infantry combat does not feel nearly as epic as it should.  

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR,AA

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1295

\m/,

7/25/13 11:25:36 AM#4
Not gonna bother till I can ride a stompa

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  brentellison

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/13
Posts: 8

7/25/13 12:23:02 PM#5

With the amount of effort we're putting into player progression and depth of build creation, it'd be pretty silly if we just let vehicles wipe them out! I love Planetside 2, but fortunately for us it's already been made so we can see how we want to change the experience to suit what fits Warhammer 40,000. Also we'll be experimenting with a few approaches in alpha and beta to make sure infantry remain the focus in conflicts. :)

 

-Brent, Lead Designer

  quotheraving

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 278

7/25/13 1:11:28 PM#6
Originally posted by dinams
Originally posted by Valrak40k

INFANTRY COMBAT!

 

This man speaks the truth

Planetside 2 open field battles are dominated by tank armies (more than aircraft, because there is a learning curve for aircrafts that there isn't with tanks, so people dont zerg with it as much)

I have said in another thread, I hate tank zergs in planetside 2, they feel silly, are overpowered and leave no room for infantry combat

I really really hope that they put a cap (or a really high cost with the need for special skills to pilot one and the need to have more than 1 person crewing it to be of full use (LIKE YOU KNOW, PLANETSIDE 1 YOU BLOODY SONY) or something like it on 40k, tanks should be valuable assets that can SUPPORT an offensive,  not your average joe sedan

 

Valkr, how do you see your chapter? I want to join battle brothers but I fear that it requires commitment that im not inclined to give right now

It is up to the developers how to make the game and to balance mechanised units with infantry.

 

That rider stated and understood I should say that I do agree with many aspects of the quoted opinions but I would still very much like fully mechanised assaults to be possible.

Ultimately this is a question of fluff.

As a one time TT player I knew that I could always choose to field fully mechanised armies such as Windrider hosts, Kult of Speed, Imperial guard mechanised divisions and the like and so I absolutely think that a fully vehicle attack force should be a part of the possible army composition on a WH40k battlefield. 

 

I for one will not QQ if I occasionally see 30 leman russ tanks in column, provided that it is only on occasion.

 

To achieve this I also agree that there should be some way of preventing their overuse to make full mechanised attacks uncommon and not overpowered when compared to Infantry.

Consider how many troops in TT WH40k can carry armor busting weaponry, lascannons, meltas, fusion guns and meltabombs and how cheap these are compared to vehicles. Then ask yourself how often fully mechanised armies fall down to well constructed infantry armies. 

 

It is finding the right balance between cost and effectiveness that is the issue really.

  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1484

7/25/13 7:58:11 PM#7
Originally posted by brentellison

With the amount of effort we're putting into player progression and depth of build creation, it'd be pretty silly if we just let vehicles wipe them out! I love Planetside 2, but fortunately for us it's already been made so we can see how we want to change the experience to suit what fits Warhammer 40,000. Also we'll be experimenting with a few approaches in alpha and beta to make sure infantry remain the focus in conflicts. :)

 

-Brent, Lead Designer

I'm throwing my money at the screen but nothings happening Brent.... D:

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR,AA

  krage

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 411

7/25/13 10:14:47 PM#8

Ya know they should force infantry combat like IRL, Vehicles are great killing machines but suck when it comes to uneven terrain and/or cities. Tracks slip, tires puncture, rollovers, and more. Major objectives should be located in just such places, or encased in vehicular defense like Dragons Teeth, trenches, etc. to force infantry as the centerpiece to win wars.

Let the vehicles have the role of pushing up to the objective perimeter and act fire support instead of being agile murder machines that spawn camp to completely nullify infantry with their aoe splash damage munitions. Heck maybe even make them incapable of securing objectives.

I would also not shed a tear if they have zero airpower...at best I want NPC controlled bombing runs that are called in rather than players flying...there is a reason why air superiority is OP and it usually is so in games as well more often than not. Landspeeders/Low altitude vehicle are ok though I guess.

Perhaps they should have a cap of vehicles per player, per 3 month battle rotation (Not counting basic transports to get people around faster). Let people spam their tanks and planes, but when they get destroyed and people have 0 vehicles to spawn then the battle will be nasty infantry fighting. Plus it be cool to see really experienced vehicle crews with upgraded armor throughout a whole battle rotation...probably not a popular choice though since alot of players hate Perma "death" in any form lol.

  Sive0n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/05
Posts: 27

7/28/13 4:29:53 PM#9
Originally posted by dinams
 

This man speaks the truth

Planetside 2 open field battles are dominated by tank armies (more than aircraft, because there is a learning curve for aircrafts that there isn't with tanks, so people dont zerg with it as much)

I have said in another thread, I hate tank zergs in planetside 2, they feel silly, are overpowered and leave no room for infantry combat

I really really hope that they put a cap (or a really high cost with the need for special skills to pilot one and the need to have more than 1 person crewing it to be of full use (LIKE YOU KNOW, PLANETSIDE 1 YOU BLOODY SONY) or something like it on 40k, tanks should be valuable assets that can SUPPORT an offensive,  not your average joe sedan

 

Valkr, how do you see your chapter? I want to join battle brothers but I fear that it requires commitment that im not inclined to give right now

 

 Tank zergs were indeed a problem in Planetside 2, but this has been reduced significantly due to the sheer amount of new anti-tank weapons.

 Its is my to my believe that the reason why this problem even begun was due to 3 bad developer decisions, which literally guided to players into zerging:

You needed several players to kill a tank, but only 1 player to use one.

 According to the devs response "infantry can just respawn", as true as it is it just translates into "more meat for the meat grinder", add that to the fact that is fairly quick to repair a vehicle...

 Getting a tank has no down sides since the driver has control of the main canon you don't require a gunner to get several kills, and since bases were poorly designed you had access to 99% of the map with it.

Cooldown time and resource cost of tanks where way too small.
 
 If you are not a reckless driver you can out last the spawn cooldown, specially if you reduced it via upgrades, add that to the high resource gain rate and you can drive most of the time if you want to.
 
Resources were separated into categories. (tank, air, infantry)
 
 The fact that the resources are separated means you have resources that you can't use in anything but tanks. This is sad because many players would gladly used them for infantry related things such has restocking on grenades and mines which would reduce the resources they had to use on tanks.
 
I just hope the lesson is learned and that EC will have all this into account.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  wghtopside

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/13
Posts: 37

7/29/13 8:49:43 PM#10

You are totally right.

I think the best way to make the game focus on infantry is to make tanks cost a lot of requisition or w\e it will be, main point is that it will be the same resource u use for your gear\skills and such. To make this work vehicles must be really powerful and turn the tides of battles if used properly. The idea is that u use a lot of your resources u would progress with to buy a temporary powerful unit for the sake of winning this concrete battle.

As a result, vehicles will be some sort of metagame and they will mostly be used by clans or just people who know what they are doing by sacrificing so many resources for the sake of single battle.

Under no circumstances they should separate recources for vehicles and player progression. If they do so, it will definitly become Planetside-like in terms of vehicle spam.

  grigdusher

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/03/08
Posts: 131

7/30/13 7:25:22 AM#11
Originally posted by Sive0n
Originally posted by dinams
 

This man speaks the truth

Planetside 2 open field battles are dominated by tank armies (more than aircraft, because there is a learning curve for aircrafts that there isn't with tanks, so people dont zerg with it as much)

I have said in another thread, I hate tank zergs in planetside 2, they feel silly, are overpowered and leave no room for infantry combat

I really really hope that they put a cap (or a really high cost with the need for special skills to pilot one and the need to have more than 1 person crewing it to be of full use (LIKE YOU KNOW, PLANETSIDE 1 YOU BLOODY SONY) or something like it on 40k, tanks should be valuable assets that can SUPPORT an offensive,  not your average joe sedan

 

Valkr, how do you see your chapter? I want to join battle brothers but I fear that it requires commitment that im not inclined to give right now

 

 Tank zergs were indeed a problem in Planetside 2, but this has been reduced significantly due to the sheer amount of new anti-tank weapons.

 Its is my to my believe that the reason why this problem even begun was due to 3 bad developer decisions, which literally guided to players into zerging:

You needed several players to kill a tank, but only 1 player to use one.

 According to the devs response "infantry can just respawn", as true as it is it just translates into "more meat for the meat grinder", add that to the fact that is fairly quick to repair a vehicle...

 Getting a tank has no down sides since the driver has control of the main canon you don't require a gunner to get several kills, and since bases were poorly designed you had access to 99% of the map with it.

Cooldown time and resource cost of tanks where way too small.
 
 If you are not a reckless driver you can out last the spawn cooldown, specially if you reduced it via upgrades, add that to the high resource gain rate and you can drive most of the time if you want to.
 
Resources were separated into categories. (tank, air, infantry)
 
 The fact that the resources are separated means you have resources that you can't use in anything but tanks. This is sad because many players would gladly used them for infantry related things such has restocking on grenades and mines which would reduce the resources they had to use on tanks.
 
I just hope the lesson is learned and that EC will have all this into account.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

i agree 100% i found the same issue in the ps2 gameplay, it's a great advantage for the eternal crusade dev have a game like ps2 to study.

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  Valrak40k

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/13
Posts: 67

 
OP  7/30/13 10:42:33 AM#12
Some great responses, hopefully we can get more DEV feedback :)