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Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Forum » General Discussion » Imperial Guard and how to make them work

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52 posts found
  freakishbean

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 176

 
OP  7/05/13 10:20:35 PM#1

The devs have stated that certain factions would be tricky to implement, name dropping the Guard and Sisters of battle. So let this be a thread on how we can handle these particulars! 

 

Ideas are flung about how Guard should be a F2P race, and in certain circumstances I can agree. I, however, believe a different approach is necessary in regards to classes for the Hammer of the Emperor. Namely, a standard Guardsmen is as one would beleive a typical human to be in the 41st millenium - supremely inconsequential. An Ork boy can rip a guardsmen to pieces. So, having said that, how do we handle the Guard? My ideas on classes:

Sergeant: Controls an AI squad of 5 guardsmen that can be upgraded with better armor and weapons. Grenade launchers, heavy bolter crews, rocket crews, etc. The player directly assumes control of the Sergeant, kits out his character as normal - weapons, armor, buffs, etc. That is the character the player directly controls. The player can then direct his/her troops to engage targets - naturally, they may not be as accurate or powerful as the player, but they can supplement additional firepower/melee on more powerful characters. This leads to a sort of balance. Troops can be upgraded from guardsmen to Karskins (stormtroopers with hellguns). I like this idea namely because it puts a *lot* of Guard on the field, while being individually weaker then an Orkboy, but in groups can be devastating.

Commissar: You know him, you love him. The Leash of the imperial guard. Whats his role? He can use more specialized weapons and can boost the Sergeant and his squads abilities. He can improve guardsmen accuracy and abilites by (and we may love/hate this one) executing a soldier in the Sergeants squad, thus making the rest (uncluding the Sarge/player character) to fight harder. A cool-down for this ability can keep him from simply killing all the troops in a squad.

Ogryn: A big nasty melee oriented brute, has heaps of health and can carry larger, more powerful weapons. Should speak for itself.

Catachan Jungle Fighter: For a stealthy class - won't have the health of an Ogryn, but can Rambo non-the-less.

Psyker: Your typical sanctioned Psyker. Group damage and typical buffs for allies.

And we all know the vehicles that the Guard bring to bear. Leman Russ tanks, Baneblades, Chimeras, and assorted troop transports.

 

*Also, they shouldn't really have their own faction. Rather, they should take the Space Marine and Guard factions and place them into an Imperium of Man faction. It has to be a very good reason for Space Marines and Guard to be at each others throats.

Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.

  krage

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 415

7/05/13 11:56:51 PM#2

I had actually hoped for a similar system for a 40k mmo across all classes and races.

 Reason I wanted something similar is to make all battles seem massive even if its only a handful of players, and it could make wholesale slaughter easier without making the player get the one that dies instantly.

 Instead of building a single character you make a squad (Size varies on race and squad role). Then as you progress you get access to a better armory for your squad...oh and permadeath for squad mates that you must replace. Unfortunately I dont think my specific concept would sit too well with many mmo players

However, I think the idea of squads controlled by a specialized character as you suggested would work great for IG to represent the sqishiness of each guardsman and reflect their power in numbers.

It would even be nice if when you start the game you get to choose to become a commander class or elite class...where commander lets you build out squads to control, while elite lets you play the beefy individual "classes"

Example: Space Marine Commander Role starts with a scout fireteam and builds up to a veteran team maybe termies by endgame. Then the Space Marine elite starts as a single scout and progresses up the chain to become the specialized roles like Chaplain, Librarian, TechMarine, etc...

  User Deleted
7/06/13 2:50:16 AM#3
Originally posted by freakishbean

Sergeant: Controls an AI squad of 5 guardsmen that can be upgraded with better armor and weapons. Grenade launchers, heavy bolter crews, rocket crews, etc. The player directly assumes control of the Sergeant, kits out his character as normal - weapons, armor, buffs, etc. That is the character the player directly controls. The player can then direct his/her troops to engage targets - naturally, they may not be as accurate or powerful as the player, but they can supplement additional firepower/melee on more powerful characters. This leads to a sort of balance. Troops can be upgraded from guardsmen to Karskins (stormtroopers with hellguns). I like this idea namely because it puts a *lot* of Guard on the field, while being individually weaker then an Orkboy, but in groups can be devastating.

 

*Also, they shouldn't really have their own faction. Rather, they should take the Space Marine and Guard factions and place them into an Imperium of Man faction. It has to be a very good reason for Space Marines and Guard to be at each others throats.

 

I like this idea and makes me think of aspects of Kingdom Under Fire and Mount and Blade: Warband, as well as to a lesser degree Steel Battalion: Heavy Armor.

 

And I really agree on the last point, I'm getting sick of 40k video games constantly putting the two against one another.

  Nonderyon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 171

7/06/13 7:10:43 AM#4
Originally posted by freakishbean

The devs have stated that certain factions would be tricky to implement, name dropping the Guard and Sisters of battle. So let this be a thread on how we can handle these particulars! 

 

Ideas are flung about how Guard should be a F2P race, and in certain circumstances I can agree. I, however, believe a different approach is necessary in regards to classes for the Hammer of the Emperor. Namely, a standard Guardsmen is as one would beleive a typical human to be in the 41st millenium - supremely inconsequential. An Ork boy can rip a guardsmen to pieces. So, having said that, how do we handle the Guard? My ideas on classes:

Sergeant: Controls an AI squad of 5 guardsmen that can be upgraded with better armor and weapons. Grenade launchers, heavy bolter crews, rocket crews, etc. The player directly assumes control of the Sergeant, kits out his character as normal - weapons, armor, buffs, etc. That is the character the player directly controls. The player can then direct his/her troops to engage targets - naturally, they may not be as accurate or powerful as the player, but they can supplement additional firepower/melee on more powerful characters. This leads to a sort of balance. Troops can be upgraded from guardsmen to Karskins (stormtroopers with hellguns). I like this idea namely because it puts a *lot* of Guard on the field, while being individually weaker then an Orkboy, but in groups can be devastating.

Commissar: You know him, you love him. The Leash of the imperial guard. Whats his role? He can use more specialized weapons and can boost the Sergeant and his squads abilities. He can improve guardsmen accuracy and abilites by (and we may love/hate this one) executing a soldier in the Sergeants squad, thus making the rest (uncluding the Sarge/player character) to fight harder. A cool-down for this ability can keep him from simply killing all the troops in a squad.

Ogryn: A big nasty melee oriented brute, has heaps of health and can carry larger, more powerful weapons. Should speak for itself.

Catachan Jungle Fighter: For a stealthy class - won't have the health of an Ogryn, but can Rambo non-the-less.

Psyker: Your typical sanctioned Psyker. Group damage and typical buffs for allies.

And we all know the vehicles that the Guard bring to bear. Leman Russ tanks, Baneblades, Chimeras, and assorted troop transports.

 

*Also, they shouldn't really have their own faction. Rather, they should take the Space Marine and Guard factions and place them into an Imperium of Man faction. It has to be a very good reason for Space Marines and Guard to be at each others throats.

Buffs? no, they are not magicians, when they are on battle field the standard guardsman think twice when fall back, or disbehave, best moral boosts when they are on the battlefield, especially the Comissar, who have the right to headshot anyone with his/her bolter who think deserve it (like falling back, do coward things, ashame the regiment name or the emperor).

Put this in game is hard, because what you said, regular guardsmen are weaker than orks phisicaly, in weapons they have the advantage compare to orks, but i say the main weakness of the guarsman is the moral what is hard to implements any game.

Another thing: just hink about when a player Comissar shot you down = rage starter...and when you are a high ranking officer and your "players" men says, no, we think that target is better to storm" instead your order...

 

  flexo565

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 2

7/07/13 9:28:54 AM#5
If the Imperial Guard get a specialization to control NPC Guardsmen, it'll be like Christmas. Especially if through a Commissar route, I'd kill (heh) for the ability to sacrifice my own NPC Guardsmen for various temporary perks and boons. 
  Nonderyon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/07
Posts: 171

7/07/13 3:06:09 PM#6
Originally posted by flexo565
If the Imperial Guard get a specialization to control NPC Guardsmen, it'll be like Christmas. Especially if through a Commissar route, I'd kill (heh) for the ability to sacrifice my own NPC Guardsmen for various temporary perks and boons. 

i  can imagine  system like this: every "normal" beengs (gretchlings, humans...etc) have a moral value, and thats change according what happens around them(like 30 meter os something), like when a tank apphere or more guardsman or an officer have a positive impact on moral, give them more accuracy and rate of fire or something like that, same goes with negative impact, when more enemy around them than friendly, or officer die...etc, and that means got some random negative effect like struggle with fear unnable to shot 5sec, or can move, or start shoting random direction...etc.

  Savij

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 341

7/08/13 3:11:37 AM#7

having squads would be cool but there are some downsides

the AI have to be good couse not all players like to do direct attacks, some may love to sneak somewhere unseen and the AI would maybe run stupid or just shoot at something

or get shooten by some other AI bot which squadleader have not even seen you

 

but i agree there should be a class who use a squad^^ would be totaly cool to equip your squadmates and specialice them

be always up to date about Eternal Crusade
WH40k:EC dev Tracker

Other EC Sites i'm in:
Dakkadakka Savij
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  quotheraving

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 279

7/08/13 7:08:19 PM#8
Originally posted by Savij

having squads would be cool but there are some downsides

the AI have to be good couse not all players like to do direct attacks, some may love to sneak somewhere unseen and the AI would maybe run stupid or just shoot at something

or get shooten by some other AI bot which squadleader have not even seen you

 

but i agree there should be a class who use a squad^^ would be totaly cool to equip your squadmates and specialice them

Not to mention that the game is essentially a skill based shooter so having a squad of computer controlled troopers doesn't sit well.

  freakishbean

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 176

 
OP  7/08/13 7:41:27 PM#9
It makes up for the power gap for the guard though. Basicially, when the sarge (you) gets a target in your sights, you press a key (q, for example) to issue firing orders. Lasguns are stupidly weak against power armor individually, but en masse or acting as a supplement can be deadly.

Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.

  quotheraving

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 279

7/09/13 2:41:52 AM#10
Originally posted by freakishbean
It makes up for the power gap for the guard though. Basicially, when the sarge (you) gets a target in your sights, you press a key (q, for example) to issue firing orders. Lasguns are stupidly weak against power armor individually, but en masse or acting as a supplement can be deadly.

And they would be en-masse since there's 5 of them.

Besides being unfair for other classes that have to do more than get a target in their sights and press a single key to select that target for your tame troop of aimbots, how is towing a squad around going to cause anything but problems in game?

I think the developers are playing smart by avoiding the IG for the time being while they think through how to best represent an army with characteristically weak, but numerous troop types.

 

For instance:

 

There's the issue of AI, pathing and terrain glitches - Imagine the individual members of the squad milling about in confusion trying to get themselves in order to pass through a natural feature, or getting stuck and running into terrain, or lodging themselves in a piece of terrain.

 

There's the problem with squad death and reinforcements. Are the individual troopers 'deaths' being represented as their losing the will to fight and being rallied - in which case they are effectively immortal since they will never die, which is very in keeping with the spirit of 40k  [/sarcasm off]. Or are we assuming that every squad of IG gets it's own teleport homer. Teleport homers that I may add are typically restricted to use by the creme de la creme of the imperial soldiery - the terminator!        

 

 Also What of players who use the independent nature of the guardsmen to hide behind an obstacle while they tackle the enemy, doesn't that also smack of a poor mechanic since they are dealing damage to players without risking themselves?

 

 

Pets and pet classes (and lets face it a tame squad of IG are pets to all intents and purposes) work well in hard lock or 'Tab targeting' style games where your main issue as a developer is AI and pathing and player skill in aiming is not really an issue, but for twitch style games they are a real headache. Either everyone gets one as with warframe, or no-one should.

 

But this doesn't need to be an issue as the IG do not need to play as your basic guardsmen when there are plenty of more specialist troop types that they can field which are more on the power level of the other races.

This leaves guardsmen as npc defenders for points of interest (to some extent replacing static defenses and called in by player action to defend an area) or triggered to spawn as attack waves in dynamic events (go go disposable meatshield troops), meaning that an IG player can still feel like part of a combined force with guardsmen, without unfairly benefiting, or being able to abuse their computer controlled aim. Plus the guardsmen can now die in droves - just as they should :)

  Savij

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 341

7/09/13 3:45:57 AM#11
hm ya that’s really hard to balance

having bots is so tricky is the aimbot to strong it gets to easy to play with if it is to low it is just useless

maybe the IG bots could have a % chance to hit an enemy and that % is affected by the aimingskills of the leader of that squad (the player) so it would be kinda skillful to play that squad

(well we still would have a problem if the player have 100% aiming cause he just shoot once and hit the target ^^)

but it would be so cool to have a squad to command about and to evolve it more and more by changing there equip or changing them for some supportsoldiers

i think that should be tested when the time has come^^

they could make their moral very fragile so that when some squadmembers get killed their aiming gets worth

to counter that you need a commissar which can raise the moral by jelling at em ^^

be always up to date about Eternal Crusade
WH40k:EC dev Tracker

Other EC Sites i'm in:
Dakkadakka Savij
Reddit EC Savij1337
EternalCrusader.com Savij

  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

7/22/13 3:24:34 AM#12

I really would like to see Imperial Guard at the game release.

For the normal guardsman, it could works like the ork boyz (FTP) cause they are supposed to be weaker than a space marine and more numerous...as advanced classes i would see: Commisar, Ogryn, Kaserkin, Sanctioned Psyker.

I particulary like to play an Ogryn Bone Head with rippergun, as i do in Warhammer 40k Dark Heresy...someone else here that like Ogryn?                


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  freakishbean

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 176

 
OP  7/22/13 12:38:00 PM#13
Originally posted by Savij
hm ya that’s really hard to balance

having bots is so tricky is the aimbot to strong it gets to easy to play with if it is to low it is just useless

maybe the IG bots could have a % chance to hit an enemy and that % is affected by the aimingskills of the leader of that squad (the player) so it would be kinda skillful to play that squad

(well we still would have a problem if the player have 100% aiming cause he just shoot once and hit the target ^^)

but it would be so cool to have a squad to command about and to evolve it more and more by changing there equip or changing them for some supportsoldiers

i think that should be tested when the time has come^^

they could make their moral very fragile so that when some squadmembers get killed their aiming gets worth

to counter that you need a commissar which can raise the moral by jelling at em ^^

Well the idea behind having the guardsmen isn't such that they do their own damage against the target - rather that they supplement the sergeants firepower. The better their eqiupment, the more damage/survivability of the player's sergeant. When he takes damage, his troops die. It's like assigning wounds in tabletop - the most powerful is always the last man standing.

Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.

  User Deleted
7/22/13 12:42:22 PM#14
I hope Imperial Guard make it into the game... if only to have the option to play a Ciaphas Cain-type Commissar with the special ability: ADVANCE BACKWARDS MEN! FORWARD!
  BeerSamurai

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/13
Posts: 69

7/30/13 8:13:19 PM#15

Eh the more I think about it, the more I like the concept of some unaltered human being the Imperium's F2P player.  But instead of giving him a squad why not just make him a regular guardsmen, or perhaps PDF of the local sector the setting takes place in?  Let me explain that.

 

The Orks get da boyz, who will die if they go toe to toe with a marine on their own so no solo work.  Instead they need to rely on having some other gitz to back them up if they want to stand a chance in the battlefield.  In other words the player needs to learn to play the characters' strengths.  In this case, it's numbers.  More to the point, melee in numbers, since your average ork couldn't shoot a tank from the inside. 

 

Likewise the guardsmen would be the same case, different strengths and the player needs to learn what those are if he wants to spend more time playing and less in respawn.  A guardsmen is terrible at melee, but a decent shot.  The point being a guardsmen would have his lasgun(or long-las, autogun, or hellgun if he plays long enough) and would have to rely on that, keeping the enemy in range so he can take them.  A bayonet or combat knife will give him a little chance in melee but his best hopes are to stick with other players and lay down a line of 'pew-pew' before the boyz, or anyone else gets in range of 'chop-chop' .  To keep it from conflicting with the lore of existing Guard, they could easily make up their own regiment thus allowing them to make up their own rules about how the guardsmen function.

 

This also gives Chaos access to its own F2P soldier: the traitor guardsmen.  Same loadout, same equipment except more spikes and viscera on everything.

 

Eldar could have guardians who are basically citizen militia, which kinda puts them on the same level as guardsmen in a way I'm not to sure about.

Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

7/30/13 10:11:12 PM#16
Originally posted by BeerSamurai

Eh the more I think about it, the more I like the concept of some unaltered human being the Imperium's F2P player.  But instead of giving him a squad why not just make him a regular guardsmen, or perhaps PDF of the local sector the setting takes place in?  Let me explain that.

 

The Orks get da boyz, who will die if they go toe to toe with a marine on their own so no solo work.  Instead they need to rely on having some other gitz to back them up if they want to stand a chance in the battlefield.  In other words the player needs to learn to play the characters' strengths.  In this case, it's numbers.  More to the point, melee in numbers, since your average ork couldn't shoot a tank from the inside. 

 

Likewise the guardsmen would be the same case, different strengths and the player needs to learn what those are if he wants to spend more time playing and less in respawn.  A guardsmen is terrible at melee, but a decent shot.  The point being a guardsmen would have his lasgun(or long-las, autogun, or hellgun if he plays long enough) and would have to rely on that, keeping the enemy in range so he can take them.  A bayonet or combat knife will give him a little chance in melee but his best hopes are to stick with other players and lay down a line of 'pew-pew' before the boyz, or anyone else gets in range of 'chop-chop' .  To keep it from conflicting with the lore of existing Guard, they could easily make up their own regiment thus allowing them to make up their own rules about how the guardsmen function.

 

This also gives Chaos access to its own F2P soldier: the traitor guardsmen.  Same loadout, same equipment except more spikes and viscera on everything.

 

Eldar could have guardians who are basically citizen militia, which kinda puts them on the same level as guardsmen in a way I'm not to sure about.

 

Except that

Guardsmen arent good shots either, nor their weapons are good lol

Seriously, the only thing going for IG is numbers and vehicles  with the occasional specialized unit here and there (like the catachans, karskins, tanith first and only etc..)

If your average cadian trooper dont outnumber the enemy on a 2:1 ratio (and that is with a good comissar/morale) , equipped only with a las "flashlight" gun and the kevlar vest, they are royally screwed

 

The problem is what the IG are up against,  95% of the freaking xenos/heretics/daemons out there are tough or have tough armour

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  BeerSamurai

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/13
Posts: 69

7/30/13 10:48:37 PM#17
Originally posted by dinams
Originally posted by BeerSamurai
clip

 

Except that

Guardsmen arent good shots either, nor their weapons are good lol

Seriously, the only thing going for IG is numbers and vehicles  with the occasional specialized unit here and there (like the catachans, karskins, tanith first and only etc..)

If your average cadian trooper dont outnumber the enemy on a 2:1 ratio (and that is with a good comissar/morale) , equipped only with a las "flashlight" gun and the kevlar vest, they are royally screwed

 

The problem is what the IG are up against,  95% of the freaking xenos/heretics/daemons out there are tough or have tough armour

That's why I said they can use their own Guard regiment that follows a different kit.  Like in Last Chancers, the specialized Ork Hunter Guardsmen never used lasguns and instead favored precise shots with autoguns because they did equal to more damage, and generated a lot of noise when fired, which helped demoralize orks(accordingly orks like loud noises but not so much when those noises come from the enemy).  Creating their own regiment allows them to give the average grunt enough oomph to stand a chance one on one with any other F2P player from a different faction and keeps the company from messing with established lore of other regiments.  Like Relic did with the Blood Ravens.

 

Because Guradsmen gun damage isn't very high, this also encourages F2Players to stick to groups instead of going alone which seldom helps a team in ANY PvP game.  Much like Ork boyz need to stay in groups to deal enough damage to down enemy players that pay, Imperial F2Players should stick together to do the same thing.  Even a tiny bit of diddle multiplied by several times can be lethal.  Keeping them as individuals instead of a squad will also prevent a surge of players going to the Imperial side and zerging the map with mass npc squadmates.

Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  wghtopside

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/13
Posts: 37

7/30/13 11:31:27 PM#18

Bots? No. I'd rather stick with action-based combat, and, since bots aiming wouldn't fit in it (even with accurasy chance, just imagine how much resources it will take to process all that) I'd make them f2p.

I think every side of the conflict has some "zerg" units: Ork boyz; Imperium guardsmen; Eldar guardians; Chaos cultists; Tau... hm maybe kroot carnivores? I'm not sure on this one. And so on, if you feel that certain races dont have weak units, there may be a way to avoid f2p for those. But guardsmen only really fit like a f2p unit for IG.

Bots? No, srsly.

  mintyc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/07
Posts: 38

7/31/13 7:21:56 AM#19

i do hope they find a way to get the IG into the game and make them fun, but i dont think AI pets are the way as this rasies some very nasty technical problams.

 

battles in this game are going to be BIG and by BIG i do no mean 64 vs 64 i mean hundreds of players from multiple factions all trying to kill each other in a common play space. so this all means that hundreds of players could be on screen at any one time and if the IG have AI pets they have to be redered to which could mean that thousands of players and AI pets could be on screen at any time and thats going to kill anyones framerate if not blow up you GPU.

 

50 IG players onscreen with 5 AI pets each = 300 characters to render

100 players = 600 characters to render

200 players = 1200 characters to render

  quotheraving

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 279

7/31/13 7:49:20 AM#20
Originally posted by mintyc

battles in this game are going to be BIG and by BIG i do no mean 64 vs 64 i mean hundreds of players from multiple factions all trying to kill each other in a common play space. so this all means that hundreds of players could be on screen at any one time and if the IG have AI pets they have to be redered to which could mean that thousands of players and AI pets could be on screen at any time and thats going to kill anyones framerate if not blow up you GPU.

 

That's a very good point.

IG aside I remember how bad the world pvp would get in GW2 when there were large zergs going back and forth, All too often you would walk right into the middle of a zerg that just hadn't rendered yet due to the rendering priorities and get insta killed by the invisible team as a result (This was a programming / net code issue, not a ping/hardware problem).

 

Having super large battles is one thing, but if they overreach the technology and end up with rendering issues making half the opposing team invisible, massive frame rate drops, hangs or the like then that will pretty much ruin the game for a lot of people. 

 

Cutting down the number of entities and optimising the rendering of distant characters can help in this by lowering the strain on the system both server side and client, but they just have to remember that having a game that is stable and smooth is perhaps more important than record breaking player numbers all in a battle at once.

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