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62 posts found
  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

8/05/14 2:09:12 AM#41
Originally posted by Hokie

They are promising or had promised a lot.

And truthfully I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it. I think we may get some shallow or shadowed version of some of those things, but not truly the vision they promised.

I guess that view would be subjective based on how you built up their design ideas in your head.

- A fully destructible world based on voxels.  Already done and proven with EQN:L.

-Horizontal Progression - Not something that's technically hard to do, but they may pull a GW2 and give a more mixed vertical/horizontal experience, but I don't see any reason at the moment to think that they won't succeed in this task.

-Multiclassing. Already been done by other games, so I don't see how this would not be achievable.

-Rallying Calls.  A feature that will be cool to see, and not something that's so crazy that would give me any reason to think they can't deliver on this.

-Highly detailed facial features tied with emote commands / SOEmote system to give characters a lot of visible emotion and control over the character's emotion.  Already demoed and looks pretty good, so this is probably not something I would doubt either.

-Making traveling fun and not relying heavily on fast travel.  They've already created a movement skill / item system and combined with horizontal progression, it should make traveling not only enjoyable, but a real part of the game play itself.  I, again, so no reason to doubt this will make it into the game.

-Emergent AI.  This is the big one that is probably the most technically difficult to implement, say nothing about implementing it well on top of that.  We'll know more about how much of this they have done in 9 days.  If there was any doubt on something they can pull off, I would put that doubt right here.  The storybricks presentation about the system sounds great on paper, and it could seriously be a game changer for MMORPGs.  But it's one of the most complex things they've promised to do.

 

But with that said about emergent AI, the rest seems like something they can and will do.  Some of it has already been proven  to work as of last year.  So, with all this in mind, what do you feel they won't be able to do?  Or do well enough, in your mind to warrant the statement "I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it".

I'm interested to know what features you're referring to, both the half that they won't deliver on and the other half you think they will.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Iceman8235

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 181

8/05/14 2:24:33 AM#42
I think the game has a lot of potential, but it's a long ways away.  I'd guess at least another year for a beta and probably closer to 2 years for a release.  We haven't gotten any solid information in a long time.
  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

8/05/14 10:35:43 AM#43
Originally posted by Iceman8235
I think the game has a lot of potential, but it's a long ways away.  I'd guess at least another year for a beta and probably closer to 2 years for a release.  We haven't gotten any solid information in a long time.

Lack of "making the headlines" only indicate that SOE is hard at work and that the features aren't ready to be shown. It doesn't say anything about how long it's going to take to get these features ready. We had hints that the biggest pieces (combat and Storybricks) are going to be shown at SOE Live in a few days. At that point, we will be ready to judge how long there is still to go.

Also, EQNext receive a lot less coverage, because the media don't care that much if it's not a screenshots, a hands-on or a video. We get monthly lore information about EQNext from the race workshop and novellas. In fact, the race workshop winners' construction will be in EQNext. That's even better than screenshot when you have access to Landmark, you can visit those buildings right now.

 

 

 

 

  Hokie

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/04
Posts: 1045

Hey Devs, just so you know. The more you give us to play with, the more we play.

8/05/14 8:11:43 PM#44
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Hokie

They are promising or had promised a lot.

And truthfully I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it. I think we may get some shallow or shadowed version of some of those things, but not truly the vision they promised.

I guess that view would be subjective based on how you built up their design ideas in your head.

- A fully destructible world -

-Horizontal Progression -

-Multiclassing -

-Rallying Calls -

-Highly detailed facial features tied with emote commands -

-Making traveling fun and not relying heavily on fast travel -

All of the above I never really had a doubt.

Except for maybe the destructible world, I have some doubts on them pulling it off as well as promised. They more or less described it somewhat like a sophisticated Dig Dug game. That the deeper you go the more dangerous and ancient these secret caves and sunken ruins become.

Yeah Im sure they can do it simplistic, but I have a feeling it wont be something you accidentally stumble across, or that they will appear and disappear randomly over time. I have a feeling it will be a predictable "weak" version of what was promised.

 

-Emergent AI.  This is the big one that is probably the most technically difficult to implement, say nothing about implementing it well on top of that.  We'll know more about how much of this they have done in 9 days.  If there was any doubt on something they can pull off, I would put that doubt right here.  The storybricks presentation about the system sounds great on paper, and it could seriously be a game changer for MMORPGs.  But it's one of the most complex things they've promised to do.

This is where I think they are going to fail the worst.

And let me state Im not hoping they fail not even a little, I want very badly for them to achieve what they promised, I just happen to be a realist, especially when it comes to MMOs and what is promised.

But back to emergent AI.

They inferred that if say, a group of bandits started attacking travelers on a semi-well traveled road that it would be emergent AI. So that depending on what the players did it could change the outcome of that general area. So that if the players start kicking ass the bandits may pick up camp and move somewhere where there is less of a fight. Or if the players ignore them, the bandits, then may increase in size and strength and change the overall area around where they are based, becoming a greater challenge.

Now what I see happening is just a simple spawn/despawn, different area respawn/pathing mechanic depending on some simple variables. You wont actually ever encounter bandits relocating to a different part of the zone because they just got their asses handed to them.

This is one of the shadowy things I was talking about. Shadowy meaning it will not be even remotely fleshed out emergent AI. It will instead be some simplistic scripting.

Which really folds into a lot of the other promises about emergent AI and how you can effect it and change the world around you. It was said that over time no two servers will be the same and the longer they run the more divergent they become.

I dont see that even remotely happening.

 

 

 

 

But with that said about emergent AI, the rest seems like something they can and will do.  Some of it has already been proven  to work as of last year.  So, with all this in mind, what do you feel they won't be able to do?  Or do well enough, in your mind to warrant the statement "I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it".

I'm interested to know what features you're referring to, both the half that they won't deliver on and the other half you think they will.

See above

As it was easier to keep the specifics together with what you wrote so it stays in context better.

 

And (sort of) last but maybe the most important -

The Sandbox

My definition of a sand box game is - choice, meaningful choice

A good but maybe unfair example of  what I consider is a sandbox game is EVE Online. When you play that game you are presented with easy over two dozen career choices. How you play them or combine them is up to you the player. And there are even more choices on how you the player can play the game that isnt a skill line of abilities. But instead its how you chose to play the game, and it can have meaningful impact both positive and or negative.

 

So that being said, will EQN allow me to be an alchemist if I so chose and that be my class, or say an explorer, or a cook, or an armorsmith and that be my class? Or will those be nothing more than add-ons to tried and true melee/magic, melee/physical, ranged/magic, ranged/physical classes and or a combination there of?

Could I be a botanist and sell my plant to herbalists and alchemists and cooks? Could I advance my player levels by doing that? Could I specialize in one type of plant?

Will it be a profession that takes skill and thought to be good at? Or will it be something any player can speed level just by spending gold for the mats?

 

How about the housing they promised? Is it going to be instanced?

Personally I want it to be SWG-like. Its doable, it was done near ten years ago. All we've had in the mean time are "weak" iterations and or excuses.

And about cluttering of abandoned houses. The solution is so stupidly simple. Any player made structure that has not been used in one month, just put the items (including building materials) in storage, or better yet in escrow. That way if an account is abandoned, drops, isnt used then the items are still theirs if the come back, they just have to pay a small  (or large) fine before they get them back. And in the process clears up building space.

There could be variations on that basic idea, but it is doable.

 

So you see, yeah I dont think they are going to be able to do even the little Ive covered much less the plenty they've talked about, much less hinted, or inferred, or teased about. At least not to their promised level of sophistication.

 

Once again this is not me being negative, its me being a 10+year MMO vet realist whos seen all the dog and pony shows.

I WANT, I really really want what they promised in all its glorious techno-color, but think it wont be anywhere near as great as we hoped.

 

"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3335

8/06/14 5:40:21 AM#45
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Hokie

They are promising or had promised a lot.

And truthfully I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it. I think we may get some shallow or shadowed version of some of those things, but not truly the vision they promised.

I guess that view would be subjective based on how you built up their design ideas in your head. or in yours?

- A fully destructible world based on voxels.  Already done and proven with EQN:L. Define fully?  SOE devs have said there will be areas of the world that are indestructible.. This is to prevent player grieving and unwanted abuse in public areas..

-Horizontal Progression - Not something that's technically hard to do, but they may pull a GW2 and give a more mixed vertical/horizontal experience, but I don't see any reason at the moment to think that they won't succeed in this task.  It's a little of both, but I see more vertical the father you progress then horizontal..  aka "tiers" that need to be unlocked to open up more of the game.. But we know very little on this area..

-Multiclassing. Already been done by other games, so I don't see how this would not be achievable. I wouldn't call it multiclassing.. It's a hybrid spin of it.. Pure multi means I get to use multiple classes interchangeably at the same time.. EQN has restrictions.. The only part that is multiclass is the swapping out of "equal" class skills (4 of them)..  Weapons and Armor are still hard locked into the "class" you have selected, such as "Warrior"..

-Rallying Calls.  A feature that will be cool to see, and not something that's so crazy that would give me any reason to think they can't deliver on this. GW2 does a spin on this in your own way.. Original EQ and other games have toyed with it..  WoW did this a lot with many of their content patches..  Sunwell?  I've always enjoyed this feature, and with it being easy to program, it shouldn't be a problem.. 

-Highly detailed facial features tied with emote commands / SOEmote system to give characters a lot of visible emotion and control over the character's emotion.  Already demoed and looks pretty good, so this is probably not something I would doubt either. For those that care about this..  Most won't even be able to use this feature.. I'm more concerned with fishing.. lol 

-Making traveling fun and not relying heavily on fast travel.  They've already created a movement skill / item system and combined with horizontal progression, it should make traveling not only enjoyable, but a real part of the game play itself.  I, again, so no reason to doubt this will make it into the game. This will be interesting.. I grew up in EQ with no easy travel until the community cried hard and long enough to make it quick travel.. Every game since that I have played as gone down the easy path as well..  So .. will EQ revert back to longer travel, or play it safe and keep a majority of the players happy?

-Emergent AI.  This is the big one that is probably the most technically difficult to implement, say nothing about implementing it well on top of that.  We'll know more about how much of this they have done in 9 days.  If there was any doubt on something they can pull off, I would put that doubt right here.  The storybricks presentation about the system sounds great on paper, and it could seriously be a game changer for MMORPGs.  But it's one of the most complex things they've promised to do. This will be interesting to see how it unfolds.. The easy way to pull this off is just to make a more complex spawning code for an area.. If players are killing off the mobs faster then they can respawn, it will give the appearance of AI that the mobs are moving on to greener pastures.. As players ignore an area, the spawning naturally puts more mobs into that area until players thin out the herd.. LOL So.. is it really emergent? or just spawn code?

 

But with that said about emergent AI, the rest seems like something they can and will do.  Some of it has already been proven  to work as of last year.  So, with all this in mind, what do you feel they won't be able to do?  Or do well enough, in your mind to warrant the statement "I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it".

I'm interested to know what features you're referring to, both the half that they won't deliver on and the other half you think they will.

     Plus.. I do have one more thing about Emergent AI which is a concern to most players, even myself..  Will the emergent AI end up being more of an inconvenience then a perk?  Will I have to constantly go "find" and explore new areas to camp?  If so, how will most of the players in a community take to that..  Most players today LOVE camping..  Meaning they like static game play for the most part..  Instancing IS camping.. Same mobs, some location, same run..  People always said that WoW was the first big game that was anti-camping.. COUGH.. WoW was all about camping, as any other game.. The only difference was that in EQ, camping was normally a small immediate location.. WoW's camping was larger more regional.. 

     GW2 does a little of this "emergent" AI in a way with their DE's..  You don't fight the mobs, the mobs take over and area and keep it until you push them out..  Isn't this generally the same thing?  I remember SOE saying, we'll never be able to extinct a mob from an area, just thin it out so much, it's not worth camping.  This will be a very touchy area as to how much players are willing to travel and explore to find new hunting grounds..

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

8/06/14 7:43:10 AM#46
Originally posted by Hokie
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Hokie

They are promising or had promised a lot.

And truthfully I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it. I think we may get some shallow or shadowed version of some of those things, but not truly the vision they promised.

I guess that view would be subjective based on how you built up their design ideas in your head.

- A fully destructible world -

-Horizontal Progression -

-Multiclassing -

-Rallying Calls -

-Highly detailed facial features tied with emote commands -

-Making traveling fun and not relying heavily on fast travel -

All of the above I never really had a doubt.

Except for maybe the destructible world, I have some doubts on them pulling it off as well as promised. They more or less described it somewhat like a sophisticated Dig Dug game. That the deeper you go the more dangerous and ancient these secret caves and sunken ruins become.

Yeah Im sure they can do it simplistic, but I have a feeling it wont be something you accidentally stumble across, or that they will appear and disappear randomly over time. I have a feeling it will be a predictable "weak" version of what was promised.

-Emergent AI.  This is the big one that is probably the most technically difficult to implement, say nothing about implementing it well on top of that.  We'll know more about how much of this they have done in 9 days.  If there was any doubt on something they can pull off, I would put that doubt right here.  The storybricks presentation about the system sounds great on paper, and it could seriously be a game changer for MMORPGs.  But it's one of the most complex things they've promised to do.

This is where I think they are going to fail the worst.

And let me state Im not hoping they fail not even a little, I want very badly for them to achieve what they promised, I just happen to be a realist, especially when it comes to MMOs and what is promised.

But back to emergent AI.

They inferred that if say, a group of bandits started attacking travelers on a semi-well traveled road that it would be emergent AI. So that depending on what the players did it could change the outcome of that general area. So that if the players start kicking ass the bandits may pick up camp and move somewhere where there is less of a fight. Or if the players ignore them, the bandits, then may increase in size and strength and change the overall area around where they are based, becoming a greater challenge.

Now what I see happening is just a simple spawn/despawn, different area respawn/pathing mechanic depending on some simple variables. You wont actually ever encounter bandits relocating to a different part of the zone because they just got their asses handed to them.

This is one of the shadowy things I was talking about. Shadowy meaning it will not be even remotely fleshed out emergent AI. It will instead be some simplistic scripting.

Which really folds into a lot of the other promises about emergent AI and how you can effect it and change the world around you. It was said that over time no two servers will be the same and the longer they run the more divergent they become.

I dont see that even remotely happening.

But with that said about emergent AI, the rest seems like something they can and will do.  Some of it has already been proven  to work as of last year.  So, with all this in mind, what do you feel they won't be able to do?  Or do well enough, in your mind to warrant the statement "I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it".

I'm interested to know what features you're referring to, both the half that they won't deliver on and the other half you think they will.

See above

As it was easier to keep the specifics together with what you wrote so it stays in context better.

 

And (sort of) last but maybe the most important -

The Sandbox

My definition of a sand box game is - choice, meaningful choice

A good but maybe unfair example of  what I consider is a sandbox game is EVE Online. When you play that game you are presented with easy over two dozen career choices. How you play them or combine them is up to you the player. And there are even more choices on how you the player can play the game that isnt a skill line of abilities. But instead its how you chose to play the game, and it can have meaningful impact both positive and or negative.

So that being said, will EQN allow me to be an alchemist if I so chose and that be my class, or say an explorer, or a cook, or an armorsmith and that be my class? Or will those be nothing more than add-ons to tried and true melee/magic, melee/physical, ranged/magic, ranged/physical classes and or a combination there of?

Could I be a botanist and sell my plant to herbalists and alchemists and cooks? Could I advance my player levels by doing that? Could I specialize in one type of plant?

Will it be a profession that takes skill and thought to be good at? Or will it be something any player can speed level just by spending gold for the mats?

How about the housing they promised? Is it going to be instanced?

Personally I want it to be SWG-like. Its doable, it was done near ten years ago. All we've had in the mean time are "weak" iterations and or excuses.

And about cluttering of abandoned houses. The solution is so stupidly simple. Any player made structure that has not been used in one month, just put the items (including building materials) in storage, or better yet in escrow. That way if an account is abandoned, drops, isnt used then the items are still theirs if the come back, they just have to pay a small  (or large) fine before they get them back. And in the process clears up building space.

There could be variations on that basic idea, but it is doable.

So you see, yeah I dont think they are going to be able to do even the little Ive covered much less the plenty they've talked about, much less hinted, or inferred, or teased about. At least not to their promised level of sophistication.

Once again this is not me being negative, its me being a 10+year MMO vet realist whos seen all the dog and pony shows.

I WANT, I really really want what they promised in all its glorious techno-color, but think it wont be anywhere near as great as we hoped.

Secret caves: Already present in Landmark. You have to be lucky to find pocket caves below the 400 meters mark (it goes down to 3000 meters) without using an exploit.

This is one of the shadowy things I was talking about. Shadowy meaning it will not be even remotely fleshed out emergent AI. It will instead be some simplistic scripting.

People really don't get that one: ALL AI IS SCRIPTING. Even human behavior is scripting: you have a fear of spider will dictate how you react to spiders. That's scripting: it's just a string of conditionals with a determined result(s).

Housing is going to work like Landmark, less or more. You'll have to get a land deed first has opposed to dump your claim anywhere and "style" is going to be restricted and you have a weird definition of Sandbox.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3290

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/06/14 8:01:03 AM#47


Originally posted by azarhal

Originally posted by Hokie

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Hokie They are promising or had promised a lot. And truthfully I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it. I think we may get some shallow or shadowed version of some of those things, but not truly the vision they promised. I guess that view would be subjective based on how you built up their design ideas in your head. - A fully destructible world - -Horizontal Progression - -Multiclassing - -Rallying Calls - -Highly detailed facial features tied with emote commands - -Making traveling fun and not relying heavily on fast travel - All of the above I never really had a doubt. Except for maybe the destructible world, I have some doubts on them pulling it off as well as promised. They more or less described it somewhat like a sophisticated Dig Dug game. That the deeper you go the more dangerous and ancient these secret caves and sunken ruins become. Yeah Im sure they can do it simplistic, but I have a feeling it wont be something you accidentally stumble across, or that they will appear and disappear randomly over time. I have a feeling it will be a predictable "weak" version of what was promised. -Emergent AI.  This is the big one that is probably the most technically difficult to implement, say nothing about implementing it well on top of that.  We'll know more about how much of this they have done in 9 days.  If there was any doubt on something they can pull off, I would put that doubt right here.  The storybricks presentation about the system sounds great on paper, and it could seriously be a game changer for MMORPGs.  But it's one of the most complex things they've promised to do. This is where I think they are going to fail the worst. And let me state Im not hoping they fail not even a little, I want very badly for them to achieve what they promised, I just happen to be a realist, especially when it comes to MMOs and what is promised. But back to emergent AI. They inferred that if say, a group of bandits started attacking travelers on a semi-well traveled road that it would be emergent AI. So that depending on what the players did it could change the outcome of that general area. So that if the players start kicking ass the bandits may pick up camp and move somewhere where there is less of a fight. Or if the players ignore them, the bandits, then may increase in size and strength and change the overall area around where they are based, becoming a greater challenge. Now what I see happening is just a simple spawn/despawn, different area respawn/pathing mechanic depending on some simple variables. You wont actually ever encounter bandits relocating to a different part of the zone because they just got their asses handed to them. This is one of the shadowy things I was talking about. Shadowy meaning it will not be even remotely fleshed out emergent AI. It will instead be some simplistic scripting. Which really folds into a lot of the other promises about emergent AI and how you can effect it and change the world around you. It was said that over time no two servers will be the same and the longer they run the more divergent they become. I dont see that even remotely happening. But with that said about emergent AI, the rest seems like something they can and will do.  Some of it has already been proven  to work as of last year.  So, with all this in mind, what do you feel they won't be able to do?  Or do well enough, in your mind to warrant the statement "I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it".
I'm interested to know what features you're referring to, both the half that they won't deliver on and the other half you think they will. See above As it was easier to keep the specifics together with what you wrote so it stays in context better.
  And (sort of) last but maybe the most important - The Sandbox My definition of a sand box game is - choice, meaningful choice A good but maybe unfair example of  what I consider is a sandbox game is EVE Online. When you play that game you are presented with easy over two dozen career choices. How you play them or combine them is up to you the player. And there are even more choices on how you the player can play the game that isnt a skill line of abilities. But instead its how you chose to play the game, and it can have meaningful impact both positive and or negative. So that being said, will EQN allow me to be an alchemist if I so chose and that be my class, or say an explorer, or a cook, or an armorsmith and that be my class? Or will those be nothing more than add-ons to tried and true melee/magic, melee/physical, ranged/magic, ranged/physical classes and or a combination there of? Could I be a botanist and sell my plant to herbalists and alchemists and cooks? Could I advance my player levels by doing that? Could I specialize in one type of plant? Will it be a profession that takes skill and thought to be good at? Or will it be something any player can speed level just by spending gold for the mats? How about the housing they promised? Is it going to be instanced? Personally I want it to be SWG-like. Its doable, it was done near ten years ago. All we've had in the mean time are "weak" iterations and or excuses. And about cluttering of abandoned houses. The solution is so stupidly simple. Any player made structure that has not been used in one month, just put the items (including building materials) in storage, or better yet in escrow. That way if an account is abandoned, drops, isnt used then the items are still theirs if the come back, they just have to pay a small  (or large) fine before they get them back. And in the process clears up building space. There could be variations on that basic idea, but it is doable. So you see, yeah I dont think they are going to be able to do even the little Ive covered much less the plenty they've talked about, much less hinted, or inferred, or teased about. At least not to their promised level of sophistication. Once again this is not me being negative, its me being a 10+year MMO vet realist whos seen all the dog and pony shows. I WANT, I really really want what they promised in all its glorious techno-color, but think it wont be anywhere near as great as we hoped.
Secret caves: Already present in Landmark. You have to be lucky to find pocket caves below the 400 meters mark (it goes down to 3000 meters) without using an exploit.

This is one of the shadowy things I was talking about. Shadowy meaning it will not be even remotely fleshed out emergent AI. It will instead be some simplistic scripting.

People really don't get that one: ALL AI IS SCRIPTING. Even human behavior is scripting: you have a fear of spider will dictate how you react to spiders. That's scripting: it's just a string of conditionals with a determined result(s).

Housing is going to work like Landmark, less or more. You'll have to get a land deed first has opposed to dump your claim anywhere and "style" is going to be restricted and you have a weird definition of Sandbox.


I used to think like this but its just not the case.



TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

8/10/14 3:50:37 PM#48
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Hokie

They are promising or had promised a lot.

And truthfully I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it. I think we may get some shallow or shadowed version of some of those things, but not truly the vision they promised.

I guess that view would be subjective based on how you built up their design ideas in your head. or in yours?

- A fully destructible world based on voxels.  Already done and proven with EQN:L. Define fully?  SOE devs have said there will be areas of the world that are indestructible.. This is to prevent player grieving and unwanted abuse in public areas..

-Horizontal Progression - Not something that's technically hard to do, but they may pull a GW2 and give a more mixed vertical/horizontal experience, but I don't see any reason at the moment to think that they won't succeed in this task.  It's a little of both, but I see more vertical the father you progress then horizontal..  aka "tiers" that need to be unlocked to open up more of the game.. But we know very little on this area..

-Multiclassing. Already been done by other games, so I don't see how this would not be achievable. I wouldn't call it multiclassing.. It's a hybrid spin of it.. Pure multi means I get to use multiple classes interchangeably at the same time.. EQN has restrictions.. The only part that is multiclass is the swapping out of "equal" class skills (4 of them)..  Weapons and Armor are still hard locked into the "class" you have selected, such as "Warrior"..

-Rallying Calls.  A feature that will be cool to see, and not something that's so crazy that would give me any reason to think they can't deliver on this. GW2 does a spin on this in your own way.. Original EQ and other games have toyed with it..  WoW did this a lot with many of their content patches..  Sunwell?  I've always enjoyed this feature, and with it being easy to program, it shouldn't be a problem.. 

-Highly detailed facial features tied with emote commands / SOEmote system to give characters a lot of visible emotion and control over the character's emotion.  Already demoed and looks pretty good, so this is probably not something I would doubt either. For those that care about this..  Most won't even be able to use this feature.. I'm more concerned with fishing.. lol 

-Making traveling fun and not relying heavily on fast travel.  They've already created a movement skill / item system and combined with horizontal progression, it should make traveling not only enjoyable, but a real part of the game play itself.  I, again, so no reason to doubt this will make it into the game. This will be interesting.. I grew up in EQ with no easy travel until the community cried hard and long enough to make it quick travel.. Every game since that I have played as gone down the easy path as well..  So .. will EQ revert back to longer travel, or play it safe and keep a majority of the players happy?

-Emergent AI.  This is the big one that is probably the most technically difficult to implement, say nothing about implementing it well on top of that.  We'll know more about how much of this they have done in 9 days.  If there was any doubt on something they can pull off, I would put that doubt right here.  The storybricks presentation about the system sounds great on paper, and it could seriously be a game changer for MMORPGs.  But it's one of the most complex things they've promised to do. This will be interesting to see how it unfolds.. The easy way to pull this off is just to make a more complex spawning code for an area.. If players are killing off the mobs faster then they can respawn, it will give the appearance of AI that the mobs are moving on to greener pastures.. As players ignore an area, the spawning naturally puts more mobs into that area until players thin out the herd.. LOL So.. is it really emergent? or just spawn code?

 

But with that said about emergent AI, the rest seems like something they can and will do.  Some of it has already been proven  to work as of last year.  So, with all this in mind, what do you feel they won't be able to do?  Or do well enough, in your mind to warrant the statement "I dont think they will be able to deliver on 1/2 of it".

I'm interested to know what features you're referring to, both the half that they won't deliver on and the other half you think they will.

     Plus.. I do have one more thing about Emergent AI which is a concern to most players, even myself..  Will the emergent AI end up being more of an inconvenience then a perk?  Will I have to constantly go "find" and explore new areas to camp?  If so, how will most of the players in a community take to that..  Most players today LOVE camping..  Meaning they like static game play for the most part..  Instancing IS camping.. Same mobs, some location, same run..  People always said that WoW was the first big game that was anti-camping.. COUGH.. WoW was all about camping, as any other game.. The only difference was that in EQ, camping was normally a small immediate location.. WoW's camping was larger more regional.. 

     GW2 does a little of this "emergent" AI in a way with their DE's..  You don't fight the mobs, the mobs take over and area and keep it until you push them out..  Isn't this generally the same thing?  I remember SOE saying, we'll never be able to extinct a mob from an area, just thin it out so much, it's not worth camping.  This will be a very touchy area as to how much players are willing to travel and explore to find new hunting grounds..

-I'd say EQN is going to be far more destructable than most games.  Even games like BF4 that claim insane levels of environment destruction are in reality pretty limited.  The voxel world of Landmark has a nearly unlimited amount of destruction in comparison.  Sure there will be some areas like towns and important areas that are not going to be breakable, but the overall world will be.  It's way more than enough, even if it doesn't allow you to blow up Freeport wantonly.

-I did hear the devs mention "Tiers" and I hope that they're very limited in the vertical boost that they give or better yet have them give no vertical boost at all.  The point of horizontal progression is to make the entire game world viable and dangerous to play in at any time in your character's life and it removes barriers that bar players from grouping up with each other.  If they make a tier system that make it so that a "tier 1 player is unwanted for tier 3 groups" or "tier 3 players can easily stomp tier 1 mobs", it will defeat the core purposes of horizontal progression and it might as well be the same old vertical system, because in essence that would be vertical, not horizontal.  You can't  call a system "horizontal" if it's littered with vertical progression.  I hope this year's SOE live sheds some light on this aspect because it's probably the most important one imho that they need to get right for EQN to really standout.

-You've defined your own version of what you think multiclassing means to you.  Multiclassing simply means that a single player is not barred to a single class.  Anything past that is simply up to what they game designers want.  If I could change my lvl 100 Ranger in EQ  to be a lvl 100 Monk, and then switch back to a Ranger later, it would still be a "multiclassing" system, even if nothing else about the game's mechanics changed.

-Yes, other games have done similar things to rallying calls.  It shouldn't be too hard for them to get right.  Just a large scale public quest system that has a permanent change on the game world when it's done.

-Some won't use SOEmote specifically, but anyone in the game will be able to /mood and change their character's expression even without SOEmote active.  And it's not like the tech required to run SOEmote is insane or cost prohibitive.  It's just a $9 web cam to use it, a webcam that most laptops and many PC monitors have built in anyway lol.

-As I mentioned, it's not about fast travel vs slow travel.  EQN is aiming for horizontal progression and a constantly changing world.  Combined with fun movement skills, it shouldn't even require fast travel and even if fast travel is in the game, it wouldn't even make sense to use it unless you absolutely needed to use it to get to a group of friends or a guild event or something.  Horizontal progression with an ever changing world has the potential to make traveling a part of the game.  If the mobs are horizontal, then you don't need to run to a "lvl 50 area" to play.  Any area you're currently in has the potential to be a playing area.  So it's more about the design of the game reducing the need to constantly travel long distances to get to "your playing area", since the entire game is in fact your playing area.  A game about adventure and exploration.  Not going to little blocks of land for your "level".

-Well the main aspect of emergent AI is that the world changes.  Even if you don't see the mobs physically walking to a new area, the point is that an orc camp one day may end up being an orc village the next.  A gnoll city one day may be burned to the ground and nothing but rubble the next.  It's not so much about how the mobs physically relocate, but about keeping game areas fresh.  It's not exciting to "explore and adventure" in a game world where 100% of the time you go to the same area and you know it's going to be the exact same thing every time.  It's even cooler that the changes are based on player's actions or inactions.  So the core aspect to keep in mind is an ever-changing world based on player's actions or inactions.

 

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  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3335

8/11/14 2:00:25 AM#49
Originally posted by Gallus85

-I'd say EQN is going to be far more destructable than most games.  Even games like BF4 that claim insane levels of environment destruction are in reality pretty limited.  The voxel world of Landmark has a nearly unlimited amount of destruction in comparison.  Sure there will be some areas like towns and important areas that are not going to be breakable, but the overall world will be.  It's way more than enough, even if it doesn't allow you to blow up Freeport wantonly.  Thing is.. I find the whole idea of destructible world crazy and damn near game breaking..  What is the whole purpose of digging a hole, only to have it "heal" itself minutes later? I remember them showing a snip in the game preview last EQ Live where the players broke thru the crust and dropped down into an underground cavern to defeat a mob.. Really?  Was that the ONLY way to get into a tier 2 underground cavern?  And how do you get out?  I hate the idea that the world can look like temporary Swiss cheese from day to day..  I dig and dig and accidently bust into Blackburrow, now how do I get out and how do I go back to Blackburrow without digging again? 

-I did hear the devs mention "Tiers" and I hope that they're very limited in the vertical boost that they give or better yet have them give no vertical boost at all.  The point of horizontal progression is to make the entire game world viable and dangerous to play in at any time in your character's life and it removes barriers that bar players from grouping up with each other.  If they make a tier system that make it so that a "tier 1 player is unwanted for tier 3 groups" or "tier 3 players can easily stomp tier 1 mobs", it will defeat the core purposes of horizontal progression and it might as well be the same old vertical system, because in essence that would be vertical, not horizontal.  You can't  call a system "horizontal" if it's littered with vertical progression.  I hope this year's SOE live sheds some light on this aspect because it's probably the most important one imho that they need to get right for EQN to really standout.  I hate to break it to you, but there will be tiers involved.. Welcome to F2P cash shops.. Tiers are a great way to put up pay walls to entice players to spend money.. If not to unlock those tiers, it will surely be used to speed up the inconvenience of them.. 

-You've defined your own version of what you think multiclassing means to you.  Multiclassing simply means that a single player is not barred to a single class.  Anything past that is simply up to what they game designers want.  If I could change my lvl 100 Ranger in EQ  to be a lvl 100 Monk, and then switch back to a Ranger later, it would still be a "multiclassing" system, even if nothing else about the game's mechanics changed. That would be your definition, but not that of standard multiclassing that has been around since AD&D..  Have you ever played original P&P rpg's?  I have since the 70's and it's what got me hooked in the beginning.. Personally I hate switching roles as well.. I'm a alt-holic that loves to play multiple toons with different roles.. The way EQN is setting up there will be no reason to play an alt, other then character looks?  I like restrictions.. 

-Yes, other games have done similar things to rallying calls.  It shouldn't be too hard for them to get right.  Just a large scale public quest system that has a permanent change on the game world when it's done.

-Some won't use SOEmote specifically, but anyone in the game will be able to /mood and change their character's expression even without SOEmote active.  And it's not like the tech required to run SOEmote is insane or cost prohibitive.  It's just a $9 web cam to use it, a webcam that most laptops and many PC monitors have built in anyway lol. For those that are into it.. It's not a selling point to me at all.. It's just a gimic to be different, like ordering pizza in game while you play.... LOL  (if you remember that stunt)..

-As I mentioned, it's not about fast travel vs slow travel.  EQN is aiming for horizontal progression and a constantly changing world.  Combined with fun movement skills, it shouldn't even require fast travel and even if fast travel is in the game, it wouldn't even make sense to use it unless you absolutely needed to use it to get to a group of friends or a guild event or something.  Horizontal progression with an ever changing world has the potential to make traveling a part of the game.  If the mobs are horizontal, then you don't need to run to a "lvl 50 area" to play.  Any area you're currently in has the potential to be a playing area.  So it's more about the design of the game reducing the need to constantly travel long distances to get to "your playing area", since the entire game is in fact your playing area.  A game about adventure and exploration.  Not going to little blocks of land for your "level".  The thing is.. I know how gamers are..  If there is no fast travel in the game, it will alienate most of the customer base, just like it did with EQ1 prior to PoP expansion.. People are very demanding these days, and they will not settle for "get a taxi" from another player to move around the game world..  According to EQN devs the game world will be HUGE, and most likely too large to just simply run from one location to another, and if I'm correct about unlocking classes..  You will have to explore most of the world to find the correct NPC's to unlock certain classes..  Sure people can hamstring themselves while refusing to use fast travel and enjoy the RUN from city to city, but majority will opt for instatravel instead..

-Well the main aspect of emergent AI is that the world changes.  Even if you don't see the mobs physically walking to a new area, the point is that an orc camp one day may end up being an orc village the next.  A gnoll city one day may be burned to the ground and nothing but rubble the next.  It's not so much about how the mobs physically relocate, but about keeping game areas fresh.  It's not exciting to "explore and adventure" in a game world where 100% of the time you go to the same area and you know it's going to be the exact same thing every time.  It's even cooler that the changes are based on player's actions or inactions.  So the core aspect to keep in mind is an ever-changing world based on player's actions or inactions.  This is pretty much GW2 on steroids..  If enough players keep an area occupied, there will be little presence of mobs in the area.. Sorta like a game default.. SOE already said you can never eliminate mobs completely from an area (default).. If players ignore that area, because it no longer has the ample population to keep you and your group entertained, you'll move on, and eventually the mobs will grow back into populating it again..  Just like in GW2.. Same technology just done on a bigger scale..  There is still a lot that remains to be seen or heard of in this area..  According to EQN devs the playerbase can turn Crushbone into a deserted village if camped enough? So how do "new" players coming into the game experience Crushbone without waiting for it to repopulate?  And if Crushbone repopulates within 48hrs or a week, the emergent AI is just a gimic then, correct?

 

I like to avoid the "what if", or the "would of, could of and should of" aspects of hyping a game..  It would be like spending money from a winning lottery ticket that hasn't occurred yet..  Lets wait till we have cash in hand.. The one thing that is certain in the computer gaming dev world is.. >> Be very vague with details about new games, and let the fanbase hype and run with it..  This allows for a ton of misinformation, allows for devs to change ideas and game code week to week, and gives them complete deniability when the game does not match the hype..

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11486

8/11/14 7:41:49 AM#50
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85

-You've defined your own version of what you think multiclassing means to you.  Multiclassing simply means that a single player is not barred to a single class.  Anything past that is simply up to what they game designers want.  If I could change my lvl 100 Ranger in EQ  to be a lvl 100 Monk, and then switch back to a Ranger later, it would still be a "multiclassing" system, even if nothing else about the game's mechanics changed. That would be your definition, but not that of standard multiclassing that has been around since AD&D..  Have you ever played original P&P rpg's?  I have since the 70's and it's what got me hooked in the beginning.. Personally I hate switching roles as well.. I'm a alt-holic that loves to play multiple toons with different roles.. The way EQN is setting up there will be no reason to play an alt, other then character looks?  I like restrictions.. 

re-multiclass

 i guess a better terminology for mmorpgs is multi-Role

Free Realms did the same thing for one character having access to many classes

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

8/12/14 4:19:49 AM#51
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85

-I'd say EQN is going to be far more destructable than most games.  Even games like BF4 that claim insane levels of environment destruction are in reality pretty limited.  The voxel world of Landmark has a nearly unlimited amount of destruction in comparison.  Sure there will be some areas like towns and important areas that are not going to be breakable, but the overall world will be.  It's way more than enough, even if it doesn't allow you to blow up Freeport wantonly.  Thing is.. I find the whole idea of destructible world crazy and damn near game breaking..  What is the whole purpose of digging a hole, only to have it "heal" itself minutes later? I remember them showing a snip in the game preview last EQ Live where the players broke thru the crust and dropped down into an underground cavern to defeat a mob.. Really?  Was that the ONLY way to get into a tier 2 underground cavern?  And how do you get out?  I hate the idea that the world can look like temporary Swiss cheese from day to day..  I dig and dig and accidently bust into Blackburrow, now how do I get out and how do I go back to Blackburrow without digging again? 

-I did hear the devs mention "Tiers" and I hope that they're very limited in the vertical boost that they give or better yet have them give no vertical boost at all.  The point of horizontal progression is to make the entire game world viable and dangerous to play in at any time in your character's life and it removes barriers that bar players from grouping up with each other.  If they make a tier system that make it so that a "tier 1 player is unwanted for tier 3 groups" or "tier 3 players can easily stomp tier 1 mobs", it will defeat the core purposes of horizontal progression and it might as well be the same old vertical system, because in essence that would be vertical, not horizontal.  You can't  call a system "horizontal" if it's littered with vertical progression.  I hope this year's SOE live sheds some light on this aspect because it's probably the most important one imho that they need to get right for EQN to really standout.  I hate to break it to you, but there will be tiers involved.. Welcome to F2P cash shops.. Tiers are a great way to put up pay walls to entice players to spend money.. If not to unlock those tiers, it will surely be used to speed up the inconvenience of them.. 

You aren't breaking anything to me because 1. You don't know what "tiers" actually mean in the design of the game and 2. You can have pure horizontal progression with F2P.  SOE has already done this magnificently in Planetside 2.  A "Lvl 1 player" is just as much as a threat as a "lvl 50 player".  The unlocks only give you absolutely tiny boosts in vertical power and the different weapons are almost entirely horizontal in their power.  A shotgun is better up close but worst than the starter rifle at medium range.  A high rate of fire rifle has lower accuracy or lower damage per bullet than slower rate of fire weapon. etc etc.  Different weapons and utilities, not "better" weapons and utilities.  Horizontal progression, not vertical. 

-You've defined your own version of what you think multiclassing means to you.  Multiclassing simply means that a single player is not barred to a single class.  Anything past that is simply up to what they game designers want.  If I could change my lvl 100 Ranger in EQ  to be a lvl 100 Monk, and then switch back to a Ranger later, it would still be a "multiclassing" system, even if nothing else about the game's mechanics changed. That would be your definition, but not that of standard multiclassing that has been around since AD&D..  Have you ever played original P&P rpg's?  I have since the 70's and it's what got me hooked in the beginning.. Personally I hate switching roles as well.. I'm a alt-holic that loves to play multiple toons with different roles.. The way EQN is setting up there will be no reason to play an alt, other then character looks?  I like restrictions.. 

Again, you're redefining the core term to mean what you want it to mean and not what it actually means.  Multiclassing in the broadest and base sense of the word is just the ability for one player to switch between classes as he see's fit.  As for a purpose to playing alts, they've already made it clear that the player could choose to focus on one or a few paths, or to unlock a ton and alting would be viable, but not required.  For example, maybe unlocking Necro reduces your faction needed to unlock Paladin.  So it would make far more sense work-wise to have a necro character and a different paladin character.  We don't even know for sure at this point if 1 character can have access to every class at all times once they've unlocked them all.  There may be limitations that prevent you from having access to Necro and Paladin at the same time for example.  So there are multiple reasons why a player could possibly want an alt, and there are multiple reasons why the game at the same time will appeal to people who prefer a 1 character life style.

-Yes, other games have done similar things to rallying calls.  It shouldn't be too hard for them to get right.  Just a large scale public quest system that has a permanent change on the game world when it's done.

-Some won't use SOEmote specifically, but anyone in the game will be able to /mood and change their character's expression even without SOEmote active.  And it's not like the tech required to run SOEmote is insane or cost prohibitive.  It's just a $9 web cam to use it, a webcam that most laptops and many PC monitors have built in anyway lol. For those that are into it.. It's not a selling point to me at all.. It's just a gimic to be different, like ordering pizza in game while you play.... LOL  (if you remember that stunt)..

Better character models that don't look like bland lifeless dolls is something that players may or may not care about.  But even if you don't care about SOEmote specifically, the facial animations and easily visible emotions of the character is something I think any player could appreciate, even if they don't hold it high on their priority list.  If you have the choice between bland lifeless character models and ones that look better, I think I can guess which one you'd pick.

-As I mentioned, it's not about fast travel vs slow travel.  EQN is aiming for horizontal progression and a constantly changing world.  Combined with fun movement skills, it shouldn't even require fast travel and even if fast travel is in the game, it wouldn't even make sense to use it unless you absolutely needed to use it to get to a group of friends or a guild event or something.  Horizontal progression with an ever changing world has the potential to make traveling a part of the game.  If the mobs are horizontal, then you don't need to run to a "lvl 50 area" to play.  Any area you're currently in has the potential to be a playing area.  So it's more about the design of the game reducing the need to constantly travel long distances to get to "your playing area", since the entire game is in fact your playing area.  A game about adventure and exploration.  Not going to little blocks of land for your "level".  The thing is.. I know how gamers are..  If there is no fast travel in the game, it will alienate most of the customer base, just like it did with EQ1 prior to PoP expansion.. People are very demanding these days, and they will not settle for "get a taxi" from another player to move around the game world..  According to EQN devs the game world will be HUGE, and most likely too large to just simply run from one location to another, and if I'm correct about unlocking classes..  You will have to explore most of the world to find the correct NPC's to unlock certain classes..  Sure people can hamstring themselves while refusing to use fast travel and enjoy the RUN from city to city, but majority will opt for instatravel instead..

You're kind of missing the point.  With things like horizontal progression and fun movement skills, traveling will be a part* of the game play itself.  In the games you're referring to, travel is generally nothing more than a barrier between content... a barrier preventing progression.  You have to run from Kelethin to Kedge Keep to do your raid, which is nothing more than holding W and avoiding running into useless mobs or mobs that will kill you and you do this until you make it to your "play area".  

The raid/group area/zone that's your level/etc, that's where your game "starts".  That's where your progression can happen... but the travel from point A to point B does nothing for your character.  It's this kind of model that Vertical progression games have that incite this kind mentality that fast travel is needed, because traveling is not a part of the game and the entire world is segmented into little areas you need to be at specific levels or with the right team before you can start to improve and progress your character.

With horizontal progression, every mob you encounter during travel is a threat that you can both beat, or be killed by.  The mob could have loot on it that you may want.  The quest to kill those mobs are never under or over your level.  This is the point I'm making, that they're trying to design the game in a way that fast travel isn't something that you want to do unless you really need to (to get to your friends/group/guild faster).  But when you're with your group, roaming around and adventuring is an actual part of the game play where you progress your character.  Traveling as a part of playing and progressing in the game.  The emergent AI system keeps the world evolving so each area can be different every time you roam through and the entire game is your "play area".

Hell with the things they've already demoed, like dungeons that are generated randomly at different areas and layers, traveling around on foot will probably be the best way to find enemies, loot, treasure and bosses to kill.  

But the bottom line for the TL:DR - Traveling is a valuable and epic part of the game experience, negating the desire to even want to fast travel.

 

-Well the main aspect of emergent AI is that the world changes.  Even if you don't see the mobs physically walking to a new area, the point is that an orc camp one day may end up being an orc village the next.  A gnoll city one day may be burned to the ground and nothing but rubble the next.  It's not so much about how the mobs physically relocate, but about keeping game areas fresh.  It's not exciting to "explore and adventure" in a game world where 100% of the time you go to the same area and you know it's going to be the exact same thing every time.  It's even cooler that the changes are based on player's actions or inactions.  So the core aspect to keep in mind is an ever-changing world based on player's actions or inactions.  This is pretty much GW2 on steroids..  If enough players keep an area occupied, there will be little presence of mobs in the area.. Sorta like a game default.. SOE already said you can never eliminate mobs completely from an area (default).. If players ignore that area, because it no longer has the ample population to keep you and your group entertained, you'll move on, and eventually the mobs will grow back into populating it again..  Just like in GW2.. Same technology just done on a bigger scale..  There is still a lot that remains to be seen or heard of in this area..  According to EQN devs the playerbase can turn Crushbone into a deserted village if camped enough? So how do "new" players coming into the game experience Crushbone without waiting for it to repopulate?  And if Crushbone repopulates within 48hrs or a week, the emergent AI is just a gimic then, correct?

The point of it is that it's well beyond GW2 on crack.  GW2 was just a 2 or 3 scenarios scripted into an area with a random public quest chain.  This is far different.  Camp Crushbone until all the orcs move out, an Orc Army may come back in force and turn the area into a raid-level zone that requires multiple groups to work together just to stay alive.  Maybe completely different mobs move in and the next players in get a completely different combat experience than the previous group and people who've been to the area are now facing new enemies and new tactics they haven't seen before even though it's the same zone.  Maybe an Elf king takes it over and turns it into a place where you can buy rare ores and supplies.  The possibilities are endless and that's kind of the point.

This also goes back to what I said about traveling being a part of the game.  If you roam into an area like crushbone and your group isn't challenged, just travel around and find a different place.  Since everything is horizontal in difficulty, and the Emergent AI is changing the world constantly, you might find an amazing dungeon or pathway through a cave that goes into a dangerous cavern a few layers down that reward your group handsomely that wasn't there yesterday. 

I think you need to think outside the box here, as you keep asking traditional vertical progression MMO concerns, like over-camped spots and lack of things to do.  Horizontal progression solves a lot of your concerns just by it's very nature.

 

I like to avoid the "what if", or the "would of, could of and should of" aspects of hyping a game..  It would be like spending money from a winning lottery ticket that hasn't occurred yet..  Lets wait till we have cash in hand.. The one thing that is certain in the computer gaming dev world is.. >> Be very vague with details about new games, and let the fanbase hype and run with it..  This allows for a ton of misinformation, allows for devs to change ideas and game code week to week, and gives them complete deniability when the game does not match the hype..

I like to avoid what ifs myself, but I've already seen what things like Horizontal progression can do for a game.  Skyrim is an amazing example.  It does horizontal progression in a different way, but the effect is similar.  I generally don't fast travel in Skyrim because traveling is a part of the game!  Walking from Whiterun to a dungeon on foot sometimes leads to a quest NPC coming up to me asking for help, or a random dragon attack, or getting attacked by a band of thieves.  All of which are capable of killing me or providing loot that I want and skill gains for winning.  The traveling around and the adventure is an intricate part of the game play, and it does this in a fun way.

The key to getting travel back into our MMOs is this exact formula.  Making the entire game world fun and viable to play in and making traveling a viable and fun part of the game play itself.  Forcing the EQ-style travel barrier of woe, punishment and boredom just for the sake of having on-foot traveling in a game is a recipe for disaster.

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  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3335

8/13/14 3:17:16 AM#52
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85   You aren't breaking anything to me because 1. You don't know what "tiers" actually mean in the design of the game and  (that was rather insulting) 2. You can have pure horizontal progression with F2P.  SOE has already done this magnificently in Planetside 2.  A "Lvl 1 player" is just as much as a threat as a "lvl 50 player".  The unlocks only give you absolutely tiny boosts in vertical power and the different weapons are almost entirely horizontal in their power.  A shotgun is better up close but worst than the starter rifle at medium range.  A high rate of fire rifle has lower accuracy or lower damage per bullet than slower rate of fire weapon. etc etc.  Different weapons and utilities, not "better" weapons and utilities.  Horizontal progression, not vertical.  I never said you can't have horitonal progression.. You are putting words out there never spoken, and creating an argument where none exist.. Is this PvP chat or something?

 

Again, you're redefining the core term to mean what you want it to mean and not what it actually means.  Multiclassing in the broadest and base sense of the word is just the ability for one player to switch between classes as he see's fit.    Multiclassing means playing multiple classes at the SAME time, not switching..  As for a purpose to playing alts, they've already made it clear that the player could choose to focus on one or a few paths, or to unlock a ton and alting would be viable, but not required.  For example, maybe unlocking Necro reduces your faction needed to unlock Paladin.  So it would make far more sense work-wise to have a necro character and a different paladin character.  We don't even know for sure at this point if 1 character can have access to every class at all times once they've unlocked them all.  There may be limitations that prevent you from having access to Necro and Paladin at the same time for example.  So there are multiple reasons why a player could possibly want an alt, and there are multiple reasons why the game at the same time will appeal to people who prefer a 1 character life style. Again.. who are you arguing with?

 

Better character models that don't look like bland lifeless dolls is something that players may or may not care about.  But even if you don't care about SOEmote specifically, the facial animations and easily visible emotions of the character is something I think any player could appreciate, even if they don't hold it high on their priority list.  If you have the choice between bland lifeless character models and ones that look better, I think I can guess which one you'd pick. Again you are choosing to be confrontational.. Why? I don't care about emotes and for you to denigrate others that don't praise or care about SOEmote is not productive

 

You're kind of missing the point.  With things like horizontal progression and fun movement skills, traveling will be a part* of the game play itself.  In the games you're referring to, travel is generally nothing more than a barrier between content... a barrier preventing progression.  You have to run from Kelethin to Kedge Keep to do your raid, which is nothing more than holding W and avoiding running into useless mobs or mobs that will kill you and you do this until you make it to your "play area".  

The raid/group area/zone that's your level/etc, that's where your game "starts".  That's where your progression can happen... but the travel from point A to point B does nothing for your character.  It's this kind of model that Vertical progression games have that incite this kind mentality that fast travel is needed, because traveling is not a part of the game and the entire world is segmented into little areas you need to be at specific levels or with the right team before you can start to improve and progress your character.

With horizontal progression, every mob you encounter during travel is a threat that you can both beat, or be killed by.  The mob could have loot on it that you may want.  The quest to kill those mobs are never under or over your level.  This is the point I'm making, that they're trying to design the game in a way that fast travel isn't something that you want to do unless you really need to (to get to your friends/group/guild faster).  But when you're with your group, roaming around and adventuring is an actual part of the game play where you progress your character.  Traveling as a part of playing and progressing in the game.  The emergent AI system keeps the world evolving so each area can be different every time you roam through and the entire game is your "play area".

Hell with the things they've already demoed, like dungeons that are generated randomly at different areas and layers, traveling around on foot will probably be the best way to find enemies, loot, treasure and bosses to kill.  

But the bottom line for the TL:DR - Traveling is a valuable and epic part of the game experience, negating the desire to even want to fast travel.  People travel from point A to point B for a reason, normally to get where the action is.. To hook up with guildies, or friends, or respond to rally calls, etc..  In those case any form of traveling that is NOT insta-travel will be a hurdle that most will not tolerate anymore.. IMO you are describing traveling as an alternative to camping, which is ok.. Again, not sure why you are being combative because others don't share your views

 

The point of it is that it's well beyond GW2 on crack.  GW2 was just a 2 or 3 scenarios scripted into an area with a random public quest chain.  This is far different.  Camp Crushbone until all the orcs move out, an Orc Army may come back in force and turn the area into a raid-level zone that requires multiple groups to work together just to stay alive.  Maybe completely different mobs move in and the next players in get a completely different combat experience than the previous group and people who've been to the area are now facing new enemies and new tactics they haven't seen before even though it's the same zone.  Maybe an Elf king takes it over and turns it into a place where you can buy rare ores and supplies.  The possibilities are endless and that's kind of the point.

This also goes back to what I said about traveling being a part of the game.  If you roam into an area like crushbone and your group isn't challenged, just travel around and find a different place.  Since everything is horizontal in difficulty, and the Emergent AI is changing the world constantly, you might find an amazing dungeon or pathway through a cave that goes into a dangerous cavern a few layers down that reward your group handsomely that wasn't there yesterday.  Sounds like a lot of what ifs.. 

I think you need to think outside the box here, as you keep asking traditional vertical progression MMO concerns, like over-camped spots and lack of things to do.  Horizontal progression solves a lot of your concerns just by it's very nature. Again being confrontational and putting words out there NEVER said.. 

 

I like to avoid the "what if", or the "would of, could of and should of" aspects of hyping a game..  It would be like spending money from a winning lottery ticket that hasn't occurred yet..  Lets wait till we have cash in hand.. The one thing that is certain in the computer gaming dev world is.. >> Be very vague with details about new games, and let the fanbase hype and run with it..  This allows for a ton of misinformation, allows for devs to change ideas and game code week to week, and gives them complete deniability when the game does not match the hype..

I like to avoid what ifs myself,  but you just did many times but I've already seen what things like Horizontal progression can do for a game.  Skyrim is an amazing example.  It does horizontal progression in a different way, but the effect is similar.  I generally don't fast travel in Skyrim because traveling is a part of the game!  Walking from Whiterun to a dungeon on foot sometimes leads to a quest NPC coming up to me asking for help, or a random dragon attack, or getting attacked by a band of thieves.  All of which are capable of killing me or providing loot that I want and skill gains for winning.  The traveling around and the adventure is an intricate part of the game play, and it does this in a fun way.

The key to getting travel back into our MMOs is this exact formula.  Making the entire game world fun and viable to play in and making traveling a viable and fun part of the game play itself.  Forcing the EQ-style travel barrier of woe, punishment and boredom just for the sake of having on-foot traveling in a game is a recipe for disaster.

Again.. wait and SEE what actually gets put in the game.. We have seen NO solid working facts of the game to date..  EQN is pretty much all hype and speculation and dreams right now.. 

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

8/13/14 3:47:26 AM#53
Originally posted by Rydeson.........

-I was pointing out that you don't have any idea what "tiers" even means in the grand scale of the game and it's design.  It could be something completely non-power based (faction scores, quest completion flags, horizontal unlocks, etc... things that don't require increased power.  It wasn't supposed to be an insulting comment.  It was supposed to be enlightening for you.

-Or you chose your words poorly.

-EQN has multiclassing.  You can play a pure Cleric, a Pure Warrior, a Cleric with warrior right-hand skills, a Warrior with cleric right hand skills, or any other combination you can think of.  One character can have a host of classes unlocked and able to switch to when that player wants, and you can customize that build with a pure set of skills or a mix of skills from different classes.  I'm not sure what else you're after lol.

-I was responding to your comment.

-I wasn't being confrontational.  I was simply stating that better looking characters are preferable to worst looking ones.  I don't see how that's confrontational.  Just because I don't care about fishing doesn't mean that I would cry, complain about it, or completely dismiss it as a worth while feature for the player base.

-Again, wasn't being combative.  I was explaining to you why horizontal progression, epic movement abilities and the emergent AI system directly addresses the "Fast travel vs No Fast Travel" debate.  When you make traveling a part of the game experience.... a part that is interesting and enjoyable, you reduce or completely negate the desire to fast travel, even if it was available.  The notion of "getting to the action" is a vertical progression system problem that horizontal progression games do not have.  The entire game world is where the action is.  Even if you needed to travel to a raid or party in some far away place, on-foot traveling being made enjoyable because interesting things can happen along the way.  No mob that you run into is a "grayed out junk mob".  No quest that you happen upon is below or above your capabilities.  The game would be designed in a way that makes traveling a part of the game play experience, which is something that vertical progression games do not have.

 And as I already said, forcing boring travel as a monotonous time sink and a barrier between you and content just for the sake of forcing on-foot travel itself is terrible design that's both unnecessary and detrimental to the game, as proven by just about every MMO that has tried that method.

-I am waiting to see what EQN has to offer.  I haven't made any claims of what it will have aside from the things we've already seen first hand and know for a fact are going to be in the game.  I don't need to wait for EQN to launch in order to kindly explain game design to you.

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  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1611

8/13/14 4:07:20 AM#54
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Myrdynn

vaporware

they sold the hype of EQN and turned into a boring Landmark game, hoping people would help them build the world.  We have seen zero progress, and nothing but "roundtables" since the EQN big reveal

 

Kind of my thoughts, too.  I know, I know they must be making some design progress on the game, but the entire Landmark thing seems like blands-ville to me.

I'm thinking WOW is going to be it for a long time to come, and that's too bad.

You don't HAVE to play WOW, you could just ignore it like many others do and play actual good MMOs.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

8/13/14 4:14:12 AM#55
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Myrdynn

vaporware

they sold the hype of EQN and turned into a boring Landmark game, hoping people would help them build the world.  We have seen zero progress, and nothing but "roundtables" since the EQN big reveal

 

Kind of my thoughts, too.  I know, I know they must be making some design progress on the game, but the entire Landmark thing seems like blands-ville to me.

I'm thinking WOW is going to be it for a long time to come, and that's too bad.

You don't HAVE to play WOW, you could just ignore it like many others do and play actual good MMOs.

Lol Muke, good point!

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5248

8/13/14 6:27:11 AM#56
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Myrdynn

vaporware

they sold the hype of EQN and turned into a boring Landmark game, hoping people would help them build the world.  We have seen zero progress, and nothing but "roundtables" since the EQN big reveal

 

Kind of my thoughts, too.  I know, I know they must be making some design progress on the game, but the entire Landmark thing seems like blands-ville to me.

I'm thinking WOW is going to be it for a long time to come, and that's too bad.

You don't HAVE to play WOW, you could just ignore it like many others do and play actual good MMOs.

Lol Muke, good point!

 

But not many are really willing to settle for such a 'bland' experience in gaming, and as much as some people might prefer WoW be ignored, its not something that is just going to go away because they choose to ignore it, of course the fact that WoW makes for some very inconvenient comparisons to other MMO's is probably an uncomfortable truth that many, would prefer to ignore also.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

8/13/14 9:30:57 AM#57
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Myrdynn

vaporware

they sold the hype of EQN and turned into a boring Landmark game, hoping people would help them build the world.  We have seen zero progress, and nothing but "roundtables" since the EQN big reveal

 

Kind of my thoughts, too.  I know, I know they must be making some design progress on the game, but the entire Landmark thing seems like blands-ville to me.

I'm thinking WOW is going to be it for a long time to come, and that's too bad.

You don't HAVE to play WOW, you could just ignore it like many others do and play actual good MMOs.

If you want to play a AAA MMO released in the last 10 years, you do basically have to play WoW. Rift, LotRO, AoC, SWTOR, FF14, they're all just repackaged WoW.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

8/13/14 4:22:36 PM#58
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Myrdynn

vaporware

they sold the hype of EQN and turned into a boring Landmark game, hoping people would help them build the world.  We have seen zero progress, and nothing but "roundtables" since the EQN big reveal

 

Kind of my thoughts, too.  I know, I know they must be making some design progress on the game, but the entire Landmark thing seems like blands-ville to me.

I'm thinking WOW is going to be it for a long time to come, and that's too bad.

You don't HAVE to play WOW, you could just ignore it like many others do and play actual good MMOs.

Lol Muke, good point!

 

But not many are really willing to settle for such a 'bland' experience in gaming, and as much as some people might prefer WoW be ignored, its not something that is just going to go away because they choose to ignore it, of course the fact that WoW makes for some very inconvenient comparisons to other MMO's is probably an uncomfortable truth that many, would prefer to ignore also.

A lot of MMOs copy the EQ/WoW formula for sure, but there are many games out there that provide a different experience.  This notion of "Play WoW or a bad game" is pretty funny to me.  There's a huge list of games on this site and I'd wager most people haven't played but a handful of them.  So this argument is basically an argument from ignorance.

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  Rattenmann

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 327

8/13/14 4:38:41 PM#59
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by kresa3333
What do you think about this game guys? i know much is not known yet, but some of the features in this game are exactly what is missing in today's mmo industry . After all how many games can u stand with the same boring concept of leveling and farming gear from dungeons and raids . I hope they will manage to nail it because few allready tried and failed hard , need some strong complicated system to win over the traditional  mmo's we got now days 

At this point nothing is known, lots of promises and lots of time passed.

I am expecting an ultra casual experience that offers next to nothing for EQ1 fans.

Maybe there is some new fun gameplay, but I am bracing for disappointment.

If EQN turns out to be a painfully average game it will exceed all my expectations.

At one point I thought EQN was going to revolutionize MMOs, now my expectations are down to "I hope it doesn't totally suck!".

This about sums it up for me.

 

Action combat? Ugh. FTP? Ugh. Limited skills? Ugh. Cartoon grafics? Ugh.

I hope it does not suck as bad as i fear it to.

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  Mendel

Elite Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 632

8/15/14 1:48:42 PM#60
Originally posted by Pepeq
Originally posted by azzamasin
The negative in this thread.  At least the unwarranted negative and unproductive negativity is why most MMO's don't reveal much substance in their first few years of development.  Sad state of affairs that SOE decides to buck the trend and produce a game to satiate player's appetite and get dismissed by the haters right away.  I mean it's one thing to hate on a game that's in beta or has all the known information about it but it's extremely disheartening to hear all the negativity of a game that is barely a year into development.  Most games at this state would still be hidden away and nothing known about.  Oh well I suppose that is why we have the internet meme "hater's gonna hate".

SOE should never have even mentioned EQNext until it was within a year of release.  I blame them for starting the flame wars... and that was exactly their intention, to start a flame war.  We don't need to know a damn thing about the game other than it's genre, generic premise, system requirements, purchase price, and release date.  All the other crap is purely to incite forum wars, nothing more, nothing less.  It rarely makes the game a better game, it almost certainly creates a short played game.

 

I don't need to be in on the design phase of some car I might buy 10 years down the road.  Build the damn thing and if I like it, I will buy it when it's sitting on the lot.  The less you know, the better.

Agreed.  Entirely too much of SOE's released information is so vague it could describe anything, game or otherwise.  This marketing hype seems based too much on nebulous concepts rather than a functional product.  They could have done 2 things to drastically improve this game.   1) Delay the announcement until they have a functional product ready to be beta tested, and 2) call the thing FreeRealmsNext to avoid all the EQ comparisons.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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