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EverQuest Next Forum » General Discussion » Round table changed racial restrictions

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41 posts found
  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2056

 
OP  10/23/13 10:02:13 PM#21


Originally posted by FlyByKnight
Maybe they can have race restrictions on class in the beginning to satisfy lore, but as your character explores and sees other things they are given a more final choice to stay the course of their cultural standards or change.

 

I don't like racial locks on classes personally.  Racial locks on class approach/style I understand. For instance an Elf archer shouldn't behave the same as a human one.

 

I don't see what the big hoo hah hah over this is all about though.


I agree with you on racial restrictions, I like them personally. The big hoo hah hah is that a lot of posters are saying that the round table itself is flawed because of the decision they made in this particular case. Their argument is that the devs wanted no restrictions yet the poll said there should be restrictions which means that our votes simply don't matter. The fact is they were leaning towards having restrictions, the poll agreed with them yet the discussion itself made them realize it wasn't going to work.

Basically the round table was proven to work yet some people are saying that it was proven to be a failure because they don't understand what actually happened.

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

10/23/13 10:14:59 PM#22

great, now the game is going to be ruined due to the posting of no- lifers who want everything to be like wow but different. 

:(

 seriously dev, grow a friggin spine allready

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2056

 
OP  10/23/13 10:18:20 PM#23


Originally posted by killahh
great, now the game is going to be ruined due to the posting of no- lifers who want everything to be like wow but different. 

:(

 seriously dev, grow a friggin spine allready


Sigh, can't make everyone happy. The devs decided on their overall philosophy before they ever polled the community. The discussion made them realize that racial restrictions did not fit the philosophy. It isn't like they just caved to people asking for something.

I guess it doesn't matter what they do, someone is going to nitpick it into being awful for the game.

  whisperwynd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

10/23/13 10:40:39 PM#24
Originally posted by Ender4

This sentence is the crux of the matter.

 


"We decided early on, before we had addressed any of these questions internally, that we wanted to try and avoid those things. So, that lead us to, in this case, not being in agreement with the players."

 

They decided early on to avoid this, but it wasn't until they had the discussions with the players that they realized that the racial restrictions were doing just this so they had to disagree with the poll. You are reading this as we disagreed with the players before the poll even happened which isn't true.

That is pure speculation on your part, he says :

"We decided early on, before we had addressed any of these questions internally" It was a decision, not a 'wait and see' proposition. It was then that Omeed that said:
"It blows my mind that we actually started thinking about this while this discussion was happening, that when we put up the poll, we were seeing these results come in and we were happy. "Oh, that's where we're going, that's what we're thinking"
" And then as we went through and we're reading arguments and discussing it internally, we said wait a second...this isn't gonna work with our game."

 

It's double-speak, plain and simple. They started thinking like the polls results, but as Jeff said, as they started developing the game they didn't want the players to make a bad choice to only realize it later on. I believe the game was mostly done when they had the poll. 

 

 

  Zarcob

Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/03
Posts: 207

10/23/13 10:59:06 PM#25
Originally posted by Ender4

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding about the racial restrictions round table. It changed the path they were going with it in the game. If you watch the video that is made quite clear in it. So all the people saying derp they didn't do what the poll said so it means these are meaningless are all 100% completely wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY98L28TySo

Here is the history of the topic.

1. Devs decide that game should not make players feel their character isn't viable by making them make choices before they have all the information. (mentioned at start of video)

2. Devs plan on having racial restrictions. (clearly stated towards end of video)

3. Devs put poll on round table and community agrees with them, lore based racial restrictions.

4. Devs put message board topic up. Community expresses concerns on how restricted race/class can back them into a corner making them feel that #1 applies.

5. Devs change their plan and go with no racial restrictions. (clearly stated at end of video)

The round table changed the direction of the game and yet people are saying because they went against the poll it proves the round table doesn't work. The message board is the most important part of this process. It is the part that gives them the best feedback and they have already proven that if the feedback is compelling enough they will alter parts of their game plan.

Listening to forum advice is the largest single downfall of most MMO's.  If the purpose of the round table is to provide an easier and more effective means of gathering feedback than a forum (ie, a poll), then it failed.  The devs did not trust the feedback it gave and fell back to accepting the most vocal forum trolls as a majority instead.

 

If the purpose of the round table is simply to "make the Dev's think" which in turn ultimately led them to the forums, then I can see why you would draw this conclusion.  My contention is that the round table is meant to replace "Ruling by forum troll mandate" and not supplement it.  In which case this entire series of events is yet another horrific reminder that good games only exist when they're kept secret and obscured from the prying and meddling ineptness of the masses.

The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.

  whisperwynd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

10/23/13 11:27:20 PM#26

 I'd also add, the game has been in develepment since 2009. 

The poll was put up on August 7, 2013.

https://forums.station.sony.com/everquestnext/index.php?threads/should-all-races-have-access-to-play-all-classes.19/

 

Now, IF they had wanted and made the restrictions for the races/classes until August 7 of this year to then change their mind, think at how much they need to change in a hurry.

The code needed to be erased for negated the use of weapons of classes unavailable prior to the poll. As in "You cannot equip this' type recognition code.

The animations needed to be added for races that were previously unable to use those weapons they now can. They have 40 classes, how many were restricted to which race? That can be alot of animations, which then include making sure they don't clip since races have different sizes. Plus, they said different weapons would have different animations.

All of this needs to be rushed right now since Landmark is set to launch, and if it has race/class restrictions then it might be believable they changed their stance from the poll, though I doubt it.

 

  superconducting

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 705

10/23/13 11:29:17 PM#27
Originally posted by Ender4

No you are misunderstanding what they are saying.

 


"We decided early on, before we had addressed any of these questions internally, that we wanted to try to avoid these things. And so that led us to, in this case, not being in agreement with the players."

 

"Unfortunately, when we started developing the game, we realized we wanted to create a situation where our players were never forced to make a decision that they would later regret based on knowledge that they didn't have at that stage in their careers.


 

This quote is regarding their overall philosophy for building the game, it has nothing at all to do directly with racial restrictions. That statement is setting their overall goal for the game. It took the player feedback for them to realize that this is exactly what racial restrictions was doing. You are completely misunderstanding the information here.

Enrif's post above pretty much nailed how this went down. You are putting words into the devs mouths. You are free to believe whatever you want but it is important that others know that it isn't actually what the devs said happened. YOu can choose to say that they are just lying but not everyone is willing to do that.

You clearly made up your mind before they ever said a thing here. You put words into their mouths in the start and assumed that the next 3 references to the subject were PR spin trying to cover for what the first guy said. They have mentioned this topic at least 3 other times in other videos which I'm assuming you are accusing them of lying about as well.

If you refuse to think that SOE knew early on what they wanted to do on this issue then fine, think that. If you prefer to be gullible and sniff the behinds of SOE marketing dept of then fine, I won't stop you.

But let me just say I accused no one of lying and put no words in anyone's mouth. I gave the most reasonable interpretation with strong direct evidence (quotes that were even highlighted). If you are unwilling to accept this then fine, so be it. But it still remains that you have it wrong, and the mere fact that you had to twist logic itself to understand your narrow view also supports this.

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 883

10/23/13 11:49:15 PM#28
This should have been a no brainer.  All the big companies are designing their games for profit which means casual playing and racial restriction is not casual style.  WoW went the racial restriction route and we all know how that ended.... faction specific classes thrown out the window and for the most part so did their racial restriction classes.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

10/24/13 10:29:51 AM#29
IMO racial restrictions has nothing to do with casual/hardcore. In fact, the system that EQN seems to have in place points towards more a lot more play time invested, therefore more "hardcore". The amount of time it will take to get all 40 classes unlocked and vertically progressed I big I imagine, especially considering how much work you'll have to do going from a good standing to an evil one for certain classes.

The RT response claimed that they had a general idea about not restricting players in general. Did they not think about the class/race aspect? I'm sure they did but either way I think they made the right choice. An MMO's ongoing success is directly tied to how much content and replayability there is. Removing the restrictions adds this.
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2745

10/24/13 10:38:11 AM#30

It simply takes less time to do things when everything has the same values (no racial bonus or penalties) and there are no special checks to make (racial resistances against poison, mental spells, what have you, or against certain races not being able to do certain classes).

In other words, SOE did this because they are simplifying the game down to the greatest extent possible, and that SOE is and has embraced lazy game design as a corporate strategy.

This decision, like many others, was made far, far ahead of time, and the PR round tables did nothing to change or affect any of that.

 

People here read into things way to much: SOE decided to take out all class restrictions / racial bonuses at an early stage because it is cheaper to do so (than have to pay people to make them "work correctly" even when that makes a better game).

 

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2872

10/24/13 11:09:27 AM#31
Originally posted by furbans
This should have been a no brainer.  All the big companies are designing their games for profit which means casual playing and racial restriction is not casual style.  WoW went the racial restriction route and we all know how that ended.... faction specific classes thrown out the window and for the most part so did their racial restriction classes.

I completely agree with the above.

 

I don't for a moment believe they were going to implement any race restrictions that would have ANY effect on game play. They simply cannot afford to. Any restrictions other than things like "only Ogre's can have green skin" are non-starters.

 

EQN is designed as a completely F2P title, so it has to appeal to the widest possible audience imaginable. You don't do that by building-in arbitrary race restrictions.

 

We're not talking about some 2-bit browser-based F2P that took 6 months to throw together. SOE have spent a fortune on this game, because it has been in development for years. The fact that much of that development time was wasted is not relevant, the costs still had to be paid, and EQN will be saddled with the burden of recovering that investment.

 

This game comes with a price tag probably twice the size of the cost of the version that we'll be playing. It simply HAS to make a lot of money, otherwise SOE are most likely going to be under severe pressure from the Sony board. There will be a very real danger that the development studio will be closed and that SOE will be turned into a pure publisher.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

10/24/13 12:32:20 PM#32
Burntvet

"People here read into things way to much"

Indeed. You have no idea how they are working itemization or racial differentiation into the game. You just think SoE's bad so everything they do must have a negative truth to it. Letting preconceived notions show you what you want to see isn't going to do you any good.

From the information they have given there will be a lot to consider and plan around when gearing yourself out, the info is there if you really want to see it.
  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2056

 
OP  10/24/13 12:39:36 PM#33


you had to twist logic itself to understand your narrow view also supports this

I did not twist any logic, I just read what they actual said and didn't assume they were making stuff up. If people want to believe that they are purposely deceiving the player base that is fine and out of my control, but what they actually said is that they changed their minds after the discussion.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2745

10/25/13 12:40:52 AM#34
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

"People here read into things way to much"

Indeed. You have no idea how they are working itemization or racial differentiation into the game. You just think SoE's bad so everything they do must have a negative truth to it. Letting preconceived notions show you what you want to see isn't going to do you any good.


 

More like, the simplest reason is usually the correct one.

They are not putting in the racial restrictions, or bonuses or penalties or racial abilities because it is cheaper for them to not do so. Period. Player feelings had jack to do with it.

I don't even think they care that it makes the game more shallow or that plenty of other games had those before.

The people running the show simply want to do everything the cheapest way possible. (Smed has been shilling other peoples' games lately, tells you how desperate they are to make a buck, and that is not something SOE never did in the "old days".)

And it also aligns with the roundtables being nothing more than PR, which is also the simplest explanation for that aspect, too.

It is SOE: most of the decisions they make do not benefit the "player experience" and it has always been that way.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

10/25/13 9:48:53 AM#35
Burntvet

I don't see how removing the racial restrictions makes the game more shallow, I think it makes it deeper, if we're looking at those terms in the same way. I see a "deeper" game having more options and activities. If there are racial restrictions in a game like EQN, I have just limited my progression possibilities by how many classes I can now not achieve. Finding/earning them, gear progressing them and adding those classes abilities to my overall gameplay. There is no previous MMO template to compare this to. I do see the point you are trying to make, just in the case of EQN you are taking away more than you are adding by having racial restrictions.

As far as the root of your opinions for SoE you can see it in the response you just gave. Your opinions of them are your own of course but it seems to stretch beyond whatever conversation is going on into speculation at best.

In this case alone I think the player experience was the driving force of their ultimate decision. Those voting have not played EQN yet of fully understand the plans SoE has in place so they could not make a completely informed decision.
  User Deleted
10/25/13 9:55:50 AM#36
Originally posted by Metrobius
Thats scary. Game development by forum mandate? Lol.

It's not. They're letting marginal things be discussed by the crowd so they can use it in their PR speak to say that the community helped make their game. The company picks the topics, not the crowd. They won't open up discussion on things they don't want discussed.

  ice-vortex

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 919

10/26/13 3:39:26 AM#37
Since they mentioned race-only classes at a SOE Live panel, it is a safe bet they were considering racial restrictions.
  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

10/26/13 5:31:49 AM#38

The only real thing race restrictions lead to is stereotyped races and people forced into a race they might not want in order to play a class that appeals to them.

Players are free to do whta they want, you want to play a human mage, fine.

 

To however say that another player shouldn't be able to play an Orc mage because if doesn't "fit what I want in the lore" has an actual gameplay affect on taht other persons enjoyment of the game.

 

This isn't to say there can't be LOGICAL restrictions based on actual player choice/actions (IE a player who does evil deeds not being able to be a "paladin or vice versa) , those are good imo and as something that actually rewards how you play and leads to depth through player choices.

 

The idea of restricting classes based on race takes away the option from the player simply because of someone elses "opinion" on what races should be able to play what, some of which you might not agree with.

 

I for one am tired of being stuck as an elf mage, dwarf warrior, cliche races/class combinations

 

  Reaktorblue

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 20

11/01/13 1:33:52 PM#39

I don't mind there not being racial restrictions however, there should be some limitations so that it balances out with the lore and doesn't cheapen the races into only being cosmetics.

 

For example, if you want to be an ogre paladin, that's fine and dandy however, it doesn't fit the lore at all and you should have to find a way to train that particular path of life in such a way that you abandon the ogre ways of being evil brutes with no regard for light, love, and protecting the weak. Ogres usual mentality is only the strong survive.

 

 

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

11/01/13 1:43:43 PM#40

so mmo development has basically become a football game ... whomever scores last wins?

make a core decision. stand by it. design the rest of the game around it and it will work. if you are concerned that racial restrictions will pigeon hole people .. design around it .. copping out on a core decision is the sign of bad design.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

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