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EverQuest Next Forum » General Discussion » Action/Twitch, 8-button Combat

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79 posts found
  donpopuki

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 594

10/16/13 6:04:28 AM#21
Zelda games are very action oriented but you use your item inventory to solve puzzles. I feel MMOs tend to lean too heavily on combat as the only means of injecting puzzle solving into the game.
  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8525

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

10/16/13 6:16:00 AM#22

Playing games like GW2, neverwinter and TSW made me realise that i love gaems with several hotbars filled with skills and real time decisions in choosing those skills...

 

On top of that it made me realize how much i love the trinity..

 

I lost my interest in EQnext because of this...

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2044

10/16/13 7:47:49 AM#23

They also suggested you could combine skills into new skills. A game needs a lot of skill choices, it doesn't need a lot of active skills. Managing 20 skills at a time is more of a pain than it is fun. Make the combat engaging and you just don't need it. Games like Rift and WoW where movement isn't as important during the fights and you can just tab target everything need it a bit more because skill rotation becomes the only real skill to playing. Games where positioning matters a ton it doesn't matter as much.

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

10/16/13 1:16:18 PM#24

Depending on the other aspects that add strategy to combat performance (gear/build mods for example) I think this style of combat, of what we know/assume, is needed as a breath of fresh air.  Not that many abilities in a tab target system are bad but they seem more akin to turn based RTS games in comparison.  When considering the root of MMORPGs, fantasy literature, even reading a book with combat in it is more engaging than standard tab target.  This can easily be seen by watching a combat video of most MMOs over the past 10 years.

 

That said I wouldn't consider EQN a strictly "Action/Twitch" based MMO yet.  It was described by McPherson as a mixture that fans of both side would enjoy.  Avoiding a direct response? Yes, because they are still working on the combat system.  They do understand that some people do like auto lock features though so I doubt it will be reticle based, unfortunately IMO.

 

Edit: Speaking on the issue of trinity, as long as there are defined roles for people to play I think having the "tank, healer, DPS" trinity is a non issue.  In fact, having the root of the system based on a numerical hate system is a little one dimensional.  Just 2cp.

  Metrobius

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/05
Posts: 93

10/16/13 4:52:21 PM#25
I dont mind the limited action bar as long as the skills are diverse and combat is fun. I dont miss having 30 to 40 abilities on screen like in eq2 or lotro.
My one reservation is the lack of cool flavor abilities and buffs. I actually like to have a bunch of long term buffs to manage and share. Anyone want to buy a SoW?
On items: im looking forward to learning more about the different abilities that items will give us. I have read that items will be an important part of an overall character build. Maybe this is a way to low fun abilities like levitate, SoW and invisibility without locking it to a class.
  SlyLoK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/04/08
Posts: 931

10/16/13 6:39:02 PM#26
8 would be ok if half of them werent tied to your weapon. That is the main thing I dont like.. Dont like it in GW2 and I dont like it in EQN. Only having 4 abilities of your choice to use isnt enough IMO.
  Gardavsshade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 615

10/16/13 7:23:45 PM#27
Originally posted by ignore_me
The lure of MOBA $$, the lack of trinity, the need for simple controls because movement along 3 axes will be necessary. What's your take on this feature of EQNext?

Ewww. my opinion of course.

I like playing MMOs, old school MMOs, with MMO control schemes and style, not Console Game action/twitch style.

If I wanted to play a Console Game years ago or now I would play them. I don't. I don't find them enjoyable. That's part of the reason why I play MMOs.

So why in the world would someone want to create a MMO designed like a Console Game? Dense in the head if you ask me. KEEP THE GENRES SEPARATE ALREADY!

Sometimes I think the Devs ate their brains instead of their HotPockets.

I WANT to look forward to EQN, to get excited and to buy it and play it, but the more I read about it, the more I see, the more I want to stay as far away from this game as I can. it's frustrating.

(*IF* EQN is designed in this fashion it does not sound enjoyable to me. I say "*IF*" because until it launches and we can all play it ourselves I am hesitant to believe anything I see here about EQN. Half is hype generated by Sony, other half is silly wild ^&* guesses.)


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

  BruceYee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/08
Posts: 228

10/16/13 7:44:53 PM#28

I'm 50/50 on this mostly because I feel combat should not be the sole/only focus of any mmo(please see SWG). It's 2013 and 10 years since WoW started the trend that made every developer focus their games around killing and nothing else. I'm sick and @#!^ tired of being forced to fight to advance/progress my characters or given an option to participate in a half @%$! crafting system that was just added to say "our game has crafting" when it's obvious that the effort to create it just wasn't there.

If SOE can create a game where the experience is evenly divided between many things then I might be on board with this.

"If you can control a man's thinking, you do not have to worry about his actions. When you determine what a man shall think you do not have to concern yourself about what he will do."-Winston Churchill

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2044

10/16/13 9:10:53 PM#29

More action based combat is obviously the future of the genre, whether you like it or not. The overwhelming number of titles have gone this path lately. 8 button combat is where things might go wrong. EQ only had 8 spell slots and it worked fine. GW2 only has 10 skill slots but you can swap around and that works fine too. 8 slots can work if they do it right but it also can totally fail.

  CasualMaker

Novice Member

Joined: 3/10/06
Posts: 850

Spelling and grammar do matter.I find your lack of real-life skills disturbing.

10/17/13 9:42:37 AM#30
Originally posted by SlyLoK
8 would be ok if half of them werent tied to your weapon. That is the main thing I dont like.. Dont like it in GW2 and I dont like it in EQN. Only having 4 abilities of your choice to use isnt enough IMO.

+1

I think it is there as a bit of hand-holding, ensuring players don't scr3w themselves by getting into fights with no combat abilities ready. So what if they do? Maybe they will pay better attention next time.

  SupaAPE

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/23/13
Posts: 52

10/20/13 1:57:01 PM#31
I agree with others, the Combat in this game will make or break it for most. I think from everything i've seen so far, there's a reason why they haven't showed us much or any player combat or PvP, either it sucks or it's on another level (guesssing the later). The parkour stuff to me is intriguing because it shows a fast, stable smooth game client which is the foundation to any proper PvP game. I''ve become hyped because of the client and how good it seems. So much potential here
  allegria

Novice Member

Joined: 3/10/07
Posts: 685

10/22/13 9:11:37 AM#32
Originally posted by Scalpless

GW1 has an eight skills bar and TSW has ten. Both games are deep and smart. Quality > quantity.

Guild wars deep ? ROFL

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1533

10/22/13 9:33:02 AM#33

The two main games I currently play are GW2 and WoW, which are extremely different when it comes to hotbars. WoW has suffered from 10 years of skill bloat, so now my ability bars take up a not insignificant amount of space on my screen.

In WoW I use; 1-= on my keyboard, all 17 buttons on my razer naga (mapped), E F G V for skills along with an alt+ modifier for many other skills. I still have to macro a few buttons together so I don't lose hotbar space as well. No, I'm not using the majority of those buttons for the majority of my fights, but I still have to have access for the times I need the various underused skills.

In GW2, well I use 1-10 on my razer naga, plus whatever alt+ modifiers I use for the F1 line of skills depending on profession.

Personally, I prefer the GW2 scheme. It's clean, it's practical, and most of all, there's sacrifice needed to be made so you can't deal with all situations easily all of the time. I find the combat approach in GW2 to be far superior as well. WoW is nice since you can't get out of most situations, but at the same time, being able to deal with any and all situations in WoW can make the combat a bit stale as well.

TL;DR version of combat between the two games is;

GW2 = Scalpel

WoW = Swiss Army Knife.

I actually like that SOE is going with the minimalist approach in EQN, but I also like that not all classes get the same amount of skills available to them via slot. DPS classes get more damage slots, where support classes get more support slots, etc. It adds another layer of depth. Along with how gear will affect certain skills and the Tier system, EQN could have a very "chess" like combat system. Simple at the surface, but with complexity hidden underneath. SOE seems to be attempting to take the GW2 combat system, and place more depth into it along with even more potential for having to made hard decisions on which abilities to keep and which to sacrifice.

My only hope is that they can keep things pretty well balanced to allow for a very large variety of builds.

  skeaser

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3685

Don't die mad, just die.

10/22/13 9:39:59 AM#34
The number of buttons used isn't what matters to me nor does tab or aimed targeting. What I care about is, is it fun? Skyrim on PS3 didn't give me a lot of skills readily available at the push of a single button and it was still fun.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

10/22/13 10:07:18 AM#35

I like the action/twitch aspect, and I'm leaning towards liking the 8-button thing.  Honestly, I just want the combat to be good, but experience has taught me that lots of buttons does NOT mean good combat.

 

I have played games that had several hotbars of abilities, but combat devolved into simple macro-able rotations for nearly everything (Rift).  And I have played games with only 4 abilities where combat was extremely deep and involving (DOTA).

I have heard a lot of folks say that lots of hot-bars give you "tactical" options in combat...but honestly, I've never really experienced this.  In every multi-hotbar game I've played, it seems like combat usually devolves to a simple rotation of a few abilities, and the rest are either fluff, buffs, or extremely niche abilities that you only use in certain situations.  I really wouldn't call that tactical.

Now I DO want a game that gives me a lot of POTENTIAL options, but I don't need them all at once.  And the fact that EQN has so many classes makes me think I will have lots of options.

 

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11241

10/22/13 10:21:57 AM#36
Originally posted by allegria
Originally posted by Scalpless

GW1 has an eight skills bar and TSW has ten. Both games are deep and smart. Quality > quantity.

Guild wars deep ? ROFL

GW1 has a deep skill system w having to choose 8 skills out of hundreds

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Lists_of_skills

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2044

10/22/13 10:40:57 AM#37

Yeah the 8 skills works fine if you can swap around the weapon skills. They stated that you could combine multiple skills into each other. I think the example was combining shadow step with backstab to form a single skill. 8 skill slots works fine if you can heavily customize them. Another good example is Ryzom where you could build your skills from the ground up and have them be very multi functional. You didn't use 10 hot bars worth of skills but they were customizable enough to lead to deep combat.

However if there is little to no customization then 8 skills will fail. It is just one of those things that we need more info to judge.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/22/13 10:44:33 AM#38
I will judge this once I've tried the game, and not based on some fanboi or hater assumptions ;)

My computer is better than yours.

  NavinJohnson

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 59

10/22/13 10:53:15 AM#39
Originally posted by Creslin321

I like the action/twitch aspect, and I'm leaning towards liking the 8-button thing.  Honestly, I just want the combat to be good, but experience has taught me that lots of buttons does NOT mean good combat.

 

I have played games that had several hotbars of abilities, but combat devolved into simple macro-able rotations for nearly everything (Rift).  And I have played games with only 4 abilities where combat was extremely deep and involving (DOTA).

I have heard a lot of folks say that lots of hot-bars give you "tactical" options in combat...but honestly, I've never really experienced this.  In every multi-hotbar game I've played, it seems like combat usually devolves to a simple rotation of a few abilities, and the rest are either fluff, buffs, or extremely niche abilities that you only use in certain situations.  I really wouldn't call that tactical.

Now I DO want a game that gives me a lot of POTENTIAL options, but I don't need them all at once.  And the fact that EQN has so many classes makes me think I will have lots of options.

 

 

Agree!

 

I would prefer to see equipped gear fill tactical niche roles and ditch the need to have 5 hot bars up all the time, the majority of which  consists of stuff that is rarely used.

 

Also, it's my understanding that a big reason that four of the abilities will be pegged to gear is to index and control for multi-classing. Sure, you might have unlocked the scroll to be a mage, but if you don't have the gear for it, you may not find the abilities useful or even effectively useable. 

 

I think I will like this system, because rather than having 35 abilities up all the time, I'll utilize class and weapons tactics for each fight. To me, this just seems like it will be more interesting.

  drakaena

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 501

10/22/13 11:23:56 AM#40

The reduction of skills on a hot bar has everything to do with balance and leveling playing field. 

The more skills available the more variables that need to be accounted for. 

Fact of the matter is that games like WoW and Rift with a gluttony of abilities with unlimited action slots get min/maxed and reduced down to 'most proficient'.

What happens at that point is macro's become prominent. So developers have a choice to either include macro'ing into the interface or leave a decided advantage to those with the know how to use 3rd party macro programs. 

So either way all those abilities are going to be reduced down to a handful of macro commands. 

Action combat actually creates less of divide between the haves and the have nots.

No game I have ever played required more skill management than a Totem Twisting Shaman in early arena. I can promise you that the know how to utilize macros were the difference between a lot of performance. 

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