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63 posts found
  Sengi

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 344

8/24/13 10:11:08 PM#21
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi

I just watched the part about the multiclassing in the reveal video again. Dave Georgeson says: "And as you find these classes, you can play any of them at any time, and you can mix and match the different character abilities to create a class that is exactly what you wanna play. It think that pretty much what you describe. The character will bound to any class anymore.

 

I feel very strange about this idea too. It pretty much kills any sense of continuity and immersion that comes from being a particular class. It makes the character a blank slate. You cant say anymore: "My character is a ...". He is everything and nothing at any times.

 

Sure, EQN will add new tings that define the character, what standing he has with different factions and races for example. But this can't  make up for the fact that you can't say anymore what job someone has or what his abilities he has. "Here comes Dave the warrior, he has be wrestling bears in the wild since the age of 10. Oh, I have to correct myself, here comes Dave the mage, who spent his entire youth in a poorly lit laboratory.

 

Ok, you can imagine that this ot that class actually is the "real" class of your character, and you probably don't even have to pick up any other class. But that would only mean gimping yourself, and take away the possibility to customize your character.

 

I don't even see why this is necessary. What is wrong with rolling an alt if you want to play a different character. It seems to be just a convenience thing. It is for players that want to try everything without putting any commitment into a particular class. They probably also wanted to cater to the MOBA crowd, where you can pick a new toon with every new match.

I don't agree with this at all,

 

I think hard locked classes from D&D are less realistic "Oh hey I am Dave the rogue, and no matter how hard I try I am too stupid to learn to fit into a suit of plate armor and wear it around, I am a well and true idiot". Now in D&D you would actually be able to multiclass to escape from this absurd idea but MMO's have lost that bit for awhile now.

Also,

I have played many games now without hard class locks, The Secret World for instance, I have no fear people can play what they want even given the option to play whatever they want....I know people in the secret world who are ranged mages and some who are healers and some who are tanks,  and some who just use guns, and some who like to get up close and smack you with a hammer in the face, sure they can do whatever but this is what they choose to do and it is how I know them. They have already said you can play whatever you want while leveling whatever you want, just like the secret world and its AP system, so if I do need some off skill to compliment my vision of "the perfect me" I don't have to stop being a blood mage to get them.

 

A better example would probably be Eve,

My character in Eve is an industrious solo tramp, That is how I view him....I started with mining which you could consider a class....I was a miner, but I quickly picked up drone skills to offer better protection for my ship, I even learned to fly a few combat ships to help clear out the mining belts of any threats before mining it., though most of the time my drones do fine. He learned to fly industrial transport ships around (which could be viewed as another class) because sometimes the best prices are "over there" and I needed something to move a lot of goods fast.

The Cover Ops ship would definately be considered a different class than a miner, but for me it was a logical extension of the character.....it allows him to scout out new systems, including extremely dangerous ones, with a better chance of not being seen or destroyed. It is also useful for launching probes and finding hidden astroids to mine. Sure it has combat utility but as an extension of a mining character its actual uses are very different than someone who is using it as an extension of a group combat specialist.

So he is still a miner, he mines....he just has a lot more utility than someone starting out because over time I have expanded his core persona...not replaced it but expanded it.

In a more character locked mode, If I went the industrial route...I could get good at mining and there would probably be advanced skills that I would have to take...maybe it would go into crafting from there or be a part of the class from the start. But If I wanted to be good at drone combat I would probably have to pick that class, or pick the "sneak" class for covert ops...I would need an alt for each when that is not what I wanted at all...I wanted a miner who was good at his job and maybe he isn't as specialized as someone who maxes out all the mining skills and all the manufacturing skills but his is what I enjoy playing....I shouldn't have to make new characters I should be able to make the character into what I want to play, within the bounds of game balance.

I think you are talking about something different. What you ask for is customisation. I completely agree with you on this point. To put the character in a pigeon hole is no good Idea. I agree, everyone should be able to learn everything as long as there are no logical or lore reasons that speak against it.

But to change the character class on the fly is something different. This basically means to take your character sheet and erase your class and abilities to write in new ones. I think the gamemaster would be quite upset if you do that. You suddenly loose the ability to hold a sword but now you can cast magic. This does make absolutely no sense within the game universe. I have no problem with someone getting any ability he wants. But he shouldn't be able to change them every five minutes.

Your character in Eve actually is consistent. The guy himself can theoretical use all his abilities all the time. He does not lose his abilities to control drones if he's in a cargo ship. There are simply no drones on the ship. Eve is a special case because the character always is an a ship of some kind. You can change your ship, but in EQN its just the guy by himself. You can't switch out your body or your personal abilities. Why do you lose the ability to wear plate mail if you switch to a mage? The mage class is not like a vehicle you embark, that has no plate armour build into it.

  Vannor

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2999

8/24/13 10:11:20 PM#22
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by Vannor
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by Vannor

My big fear was that Everquest would be turned into a commercial product and not have it's own unique identity anymore. Sadly, that's what's happened.

Might be a very good game but they have definitely bent over and given in to the commercial trends rather than work off their own initiative and general love for fantasy.

yeah, making a f4p game and doing stuff that is always wanted to be done be developers but never done(destructability), becaus its to risky for the money ,is purely the biggest point to be out for commercial gain. /sarcsm out

And as a player i hope they achieve some commercial use to develope and maintain the game.

You are what I call.. an MMO fan.. not a fantasy fan.

..and I wasn't talking about features, I was talking about style. It's like.. making the next season of Game of Thrones a cartoon. Changes everything to do with the fantasy... the story might be just a good.. but everything would just feel completely different.

and i thought this is mmoprg.com and not fantasyfan.com

Pathetic reply. Anything to try get one up eh? You know my point.. and you probably understand it. But you'll still keep saying silly stuff right?

  Enrif

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 145

8/24/13 11:11:55 PM#23
Originally posted by Vannor
Originally posted by Enrif

and i thought this is mmoprg.com and not fantasyfan.com

Pathetic reply. Anything to try get one up eh? You know my point.. and you probably understand it. But you'll still keep saying silly stuff right?

Oh, i understand perfectly. But the Problem is not SOE or EQN or the change of Art style. But what you(the collective you) ignorantly blend out.

For one. Some people say the stylizied look aims for mainstream. is that so? Look at games of the last years and year to come: 

  • Guild Wars 2 - stylizied
  • FF14:ARR - realism
  • Firefall - stylizied
  • The Secret World - realism
  • Black Desert - realism
  • Wildstar - stylizied
  • EvE - realism
  • Destiny - realism
  • SWG - realism
  • The Repopulation -realism
  • WoW - sylizied
For two. Even if they change say Game of Thrones next season to another art direction, it is done before. Some time it was better, some time worse. Dont belive me, compare:
 
  • Snowwhite(Disney) - Snowwhite and the Huntsman
  • The "original" StarWars trilogy(4,5,6) - the new StarWars Trilogy(1,2,3) -  The Clone Wars
  • The Simpsons
  • All the different King Arthur movies
If a IP loses its identity has absolut nothing to do with the visual approach besides its the one and only thing that makes it unique. And then it doesent means its even  good. cause the thing someone likes in a Art direction can be disgusting to another. Just go to any Museum and see what artist did over the centuries. and everquest is not a game that is recognised by its visual approach. But by its mix of the stuff you can do and the lore. If they would use 8 bit art it would still be Everquest.
 
  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

8/24/13 11:30:39 PM#24
Originally posted by Sengi
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi

I just watched the part about the multiclassing in the reveal video again. Dave Georgeson says: "And as you find these classes, you can play any of them at any time, and you can mix and match the different c

....

I don't even see why this is necessary. What is wrong with rolling an alt if you want to play a different character. It seems to be just a convenience thing. It is for players that want to try everything without putting any commitment into a particular class. They probably also wanted to cater to the MOBA crowd, where you can pick a new toon with every new match.

I don't agree with this at all,

 

.....

make new characters I should be able to make the character into what I want to play, within the bounds of game balance.

I think you are talking about something different. What you ask for is customisation. I completely agree with you on this point. To put the character in a pigeon hole is no good Idea. I agree, everyone should be able to learn everything as long as there are no logical or lore reasons that speak against it.

But to change the character class on the fly is something different. This basically means to take your character sheet and erase your class and abilities to write in new ones. I think the gamemaster would be quite upset if you do that. You suddenly loose the ability to hold a sword but now you can cast magic. This does make absolutely no sense within the game universe. I have no problem with someone getting any ability he wants. But he shouldn't be able to change them every five minutes.

Your character in Eve actually is consistent. The guy himself can theoretical use all his abilities all the time. He does not lose his abilities to control drones if he's in a cargo ship. There are simply no drones on the ship. Eve is a special case because the character always is an a ship of some kind. You can change your ship, but in EQN its just the guy by himself. You can't switch out your body or your personal abilities. Why do you lose the ability to wear plate mail if you switch to a mage? The mage class is not like a vehicle you embark, that has no plate armour build into it.

Honestly, I never understood why mages couldn't wear plate armor anyway, I guess you will just have to go back to the old D&D standby of "metal messes with magic" It continues to this day because if mages could wear plate why would they ever wear robes? It is more of a game balance issue than a homage to fantasy themes I believe.

We really don't know how "on the fly" EQN is going to allow character class changes, will it be as simple as pulling up your UI? Which the secret world allows, or will you have to go back to town? The secret world has a pretty big inventory but even in that one having multiple sets of gear for multiple load outs pretty much cramps your ability to carry anything else.

This is why I have said, and will continue to say, we do not know enough at this point to really have an opinion on a lot of this information. If your bag can not hold 4 different weapons and 8 different pieces of armor (I believe they said armor will be in 4 slots)...then you will not be able to drastically change your class on the fly and that is only TWO classes. To have three classes (say a figher, sneak, mage) you would need 12 pieces of armor in your bag, 8 weapons and any other "utility slots" they may or may not have in this game....IF you add in this complex customized weapon sub parts they keep talking about, and they take up inventory space...

you may very well be able to change on the fly and not be able to loot anything.

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/24/13 11:43:58 PM#25
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi

Honestly, I never understood why mages couldn't wear plate armor anyway, I guess you will just have to go back to the old D&D standby of "metal messes with magic" It continues to this day because if mages could wear plate why would they ever wear robes? It is more of a game balance issue than a homage to fantasy themes I believe.

We really don't know how "on the fly" EQN is going to allow character class changes, will it be as simple as pulling up your UI? Which the secret world allows, or will you have to go back to town? The secret world has a pretty big inventory but even in that one having multiple sets of gear for multiple load outs pretty much cramps your ability to carry anything else.

This is why I have said, and will continue to say, we do not know enough at this point to really have an opinion on a lot of this information. If your bag can not hold 4 different weapons and 8 different pieces of armor (I believe they said armor will be in 4 slots)...then you will not be able to drastically change your class on the fly and that is only TWO classes. To have three classes (say a figher, sneak, mage) you would need 12 pieces of armor in your bag, 8 weapons and any other "utility slots" they may or may not have in this game....IF you add in this complex customized weapon sub parts they keep talking about, and they take up inventory space...

you may very well be able to change on the fly and not be able to loot anything.

I'm sure the CS will alleviate this problem with extra space available. They should have weight encumbrance if they want to keep from switching too easy,  but doubt they will.

  User Deleted
8/25/13 12:50:51 AM#26
My biggest fear is that EQN will be a boring copy paste with a new paint job like all the whiners on here are clamouring for (and like every failed MMO over the past 10 years). Thankfully it looks like SoE is not doing that.
  User Deleted
8/25/13 12:57:48 AM#27
Also the restriction of mages for cloth is because it restricts movement required for spellcraft, and most mages lack the physical discipline required to wear plate unencumbered (they lack the strength). Some wizards (war wizards) trained to wear plate, but it restricted more intricate spells.
  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/25/13 1:14:56 AM#28
Originally posted by Sengi
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi

I just watched the part about the multiclassing in the reveal video again. Dave Georgeson says: "And as you find these classes, you can play any of them at any time, and you can mix and match the different character abilities to create a class that is exactly what you wanna play. It think that pretty much what you describe. The character will bound to any class anymore.

 

I feel very strange about this idea too. It pretty much kills any sense of continuity and immersion that comes from being a particular class. It makes the character a blank slate. You cant say anymore: "My character is a ...". He is everything and nothing at any times.

 

Sure, EQN will add new tings that define the character, what standing he has with different factions and races for example. But this can't  make up for the fact that you can't say anymore what job someone has or what his abilities he has. "Here comes Dave the warrior, he has be wrestling bears in the wild since the age of 10. Oh, I have to correct myself, here comes Dave the mage, who spent his entire youth in a poorly lit laboratory.

 

Ok, you can imagine that this ot that class actually is the "real" class of your character, and you probably don't even have to pick up any other class. But that would only mean gimping yourself, and take away the possibility to customize your character.

 

I don't even see why this is necessary. What is wrong with rolling an alt if you want to play a different character. It seems to be just a convenience thing. It is for players that want to try everything without putting any commitment into a particular class. They probably also wanted to cater to the MOBA crowd, where you can pick a new toon with every new match.

I don't agree with this at all,

 

I think hard locked classes from D&D are less realistic "Oh hey I am Dave the rogue, and no matter how hard I try I am too stupid to learn to fit into a suit of plate armor and wear it around, I am a well and true idiot". Now in D&D you would actually be able to multiclass to escape from this absurd idea but MMO's have lost that bit for awhile now.

Also,

I have played many games now without hard class locks, The Secret World for instance, I have no fear people can play what they want even given the option to play whatever they want....I know people in the secret world who are ranged mages and some who are healers and some who are tanks,  and some who just use guns, and some who like to get up close and smack you with a hammer in the face, sure they can do whatever but this is what they choose to do and it is how I know them. They have already said you can play whatever you want while leveling whatever you want, just like the secret world and its AP system, so if I do need some off skill to compliment my vision of "the perfect me" I don't have to stop being a blood mage to get them.

 

A better example would probably be Eve,

My character in Eve is an industrious solo tramp, That is how I view him....I started with mining which you could consider a class....I was a miner, but I quickly picked up drone skills to offer better protection for my ship, I even learned to fly a few combat ships to help clear out the mining belts of any threats before mining it., though most of the time my drones do fine. He learned to fly industrial transport ships around (which could be viewed as another class) because sometimes the best prices are "over there" and I needed something to move a lot of goods fast.

The Cover Ops ship would definately be considered a different class than a miner, but for me it was a logical extension of the character.....it allows him to scout out new systems, including extremely dangerous ones, with a better chance of not being seen or destroyed. It is also useful for launching probes and finding hidden astroids to mine. Sure it has combat utility but as an extension of a mining character its actual uses are very different than someone who is using it as an extension of a group combat specialist.

So he is still a miner, he mines....he just has a lot more utility than someone starting out because over time I have expanded his core persona...not replaced it but expanded it.

In a more character locked mode, If I went the industrial route...I could get good at mining and there would probably be advanced skills that I would have to take...maybe it would go into crafting from there or be a part of the class from the start. But If I wanted to be good at drone combat I would probably have to pick that class, or pick the "sneak" class for covert ops...I would need an alt for each when that is not what I wanted at all...I wanted a miner who was good at his job and maybe he isn't as specialized as someone who maxes out all the mining skills and all the manufacturing skills but his is what I enjoy playing....I shouldn't have to make new characters I should be able to make the character into what I want to play, within the bounds of game balance.

I think you are talking about something different. What you ask for is customisation. I completely agree with you on this point. To put the character in a pigeon hole is no good Idea. I agree, everyone should be able to learn everything as long as there are no logical or lore reasons that speak against it.

But to change the character class on the fly is something different. This basically means to take your character sheet and erase your class and abilities to write in new ones. I think the gamemaster would be quite upset if you do that. You suddenly loose the ability to hold a sword but now you can cast magic. This does make absolutely no sense within the game universe. I have no problem with someone getting any ability he wants. But he shouldn't be able to change them every five minutes.

Your character in Eve actually is consistent. The guy himself can theoretical use all his abilities all the time. He does not lose his abilities to control drones if he's in a cargo ship. There are simply no drones on the ship. Eve is a special case because the character always is an a ship of some kind. You can change your ship, but in EQN its just the guy by himself. You can't switch out your body or your personal abilities. Why do you lose the ability to wear plate mail if you switch to a mage? The mage class is not like a vehicle you embark, that has no plate armour build into it.

NO.

You need to think of it more like real life and how we learn and grow as we move through experiences in life.  Maybe when you were in high school, you joined the football team and practiced really hard, so you were in great physical shape and were really good at playing football.  Then after highschool you started working on cars and got certified to be a mechanic.

So now you're a good football player, and a mechanic.  Learning how to fix cars didn't make you forget how to throw a football.

This is kind of how EQN is doing things.  You will be able to learn and grow as a player, learning new skills and class abilities as you play through the game, and you can choose to use them, or not to use them.

They're making it a more free-flowing, less restricted and more realistic type of character development.  Just because you selected some arbitrary title at the start of the game (Warrior for example) doesn't mean you can't learn how to sneak around and be a rogue character in the future, or combining your knowledge and customizing your character.  The key thing to understand here is that the choice is yours.  If you want to be identified as a great warrior, then you can still do that.  They have already said that they won't be making any one class, or having multiple class choices, increase your character's "power".  It's all about freedom and customization.

A pure Warrior who started as a warrior and only has that one class, will be just as powerful as a person who mixes and matches abilities from 4 different classes that were learned later in their character's life.

It won't "gimp" you.  There's nothing immersion-ruining, character-power-gimping or identity-ruining about EQN class system.  Nothing at all.

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  User Deleted
8/25/13 1:25:48 AM#29
I refuse to invest enough emotionally into the hype to become overly hopeful or fearful of what will occur with the title. To me it's a game that I would enjoy seeing succeed but will not waste any time whining over if it fails. With that written I must agree with the notion that having hot swappable class abilities is a bad idea turning characters with roles, identities, and unique play styles built around integral themes and world lore into nothing more than walking tool boxes where all personality is swept away to deal with the obstacle of the moment. It's a growing MMORPG trend and a travesty akin to casting Rosanne Barr all out naked and wet with John Goodman in a celebrity porno to promote their availability for cheap work in the public eye. In essences its the bad kind of sloppy development time saving that needed to be spent for a quality product so they could tickle other booties to phish you with. It is what it is and actual play will have to answer any questions related to how fun they managed to make it in spite of the flaw.
  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1128

8/25/13 1:54:43 AM#30

Something to think about, do you let your class define you or is it just a part of who you are as a player?

Some people like to be defined by their clothes, music choice, political/religious beliefs, hobbies, profession, etc. I do my best to stay away from this mindset. I feel I can't easily be stereotyped or put in a nice little category in real life. 

Team Fortress 2 allows on the fly class swapping and template changing (not extremely deep in a FPS), and while I tend to play a few classes more then the rest and people know me as being good with those particular classes, I play all classes almost every session. Obviously there is a quite a bit more character development in an mmorpg, but I get where SOE is going. It is fun not being locked into one thing and being able to fill in any role that is lacking to help out the team.

I hate having to spend months/years building a character and then if I want to try something new, I get to start at zero and do the exact same content all over again. 

I want to be me, not multiple versions of myself in game. One continuous adventure where I progress and adapt as I go is what I'm looking for.

Great thing about EQN is that it will allow those that want to stick to one class to do so. Or just one play style or role. So if you prefer heavy armored melee classes, you'll have a few to swap and build from. Or just play a Mage forever.

But for those of us that like to play a little of everything, we will have endless possibilities and entertainment.

I have no idea how they will explain it to make sense in game. Maybe there is some story that explains how you are learning multiple paths and working to becoming the ultimate adventurer instead of the ultimate ranger or bard or whatever.

For me, it is more immersion breaking to have to log off one character and log on another if I want to do different things instead of simply switching gear and the skills I'm using.

Either way, it is still just a game and regardless if it is based on D&D fantasy or whatever guide lines, the only limitations is our imagination.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

8/25/13 5:50:51 AM#31
Originally posted by ropenice
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi
Originally posted by GrayKodiak
Originally posted by Sengi

Honestly, I never understood why mages couldn't wear plate armor anyway, I guess you will just have to go back to the old D&D standby of "metal messes with magic" It continues to this day because if mages could wear plate why would they ever wear robes? It is more of a game balance issue than a homage to fantasy themes I believe.

We really don't know how "on the fly" EQN is going to allow character class changes, will it be as simple as pulling up your UI? Which the secret world allows, or will you have to go back to town? The secret world has a pretty big inventory but even in that one having multiple sets of gear for multiple load outs pretty much cramps your ability to carry anything else.

This is why I have said, and will continue to say, we do not know enough at this point to really have an opinion on a lot of this information. If your bag can not hold 4 different weapons and 8 different pieces of armor (I believe they said armor will be in 4 slots)...then you will not be able to drastically change your class on the fly and that is only TWO classes. To have three classes (say a figher, sneak, mage) you would need 12 pieces of armor in your bag, 8 weapons and any other "utility slots" they may or may not have in this game....IF you add in this complex customized weapon sub parts they keep talking about, and they take up inventory space...

you may very well be able to change on the fly and not be able to loot anything.

I'm sure the CS will alleviate this problem with extra space available. They should have weight encumbrance if they want to keep from switching too easy,  but doubt they will.

     Yeah.. metal messes with magic.. except if you are a Paladin, Shadow Knight and Bard.. LOL  I honestly wish they would go in a different direction on armor wearing..  Anyone should be able to wear anything with consequences.. But that means bringing back some old world mechanics that many players don't understand or like..  There should be weight encumbrance issues.. The more you wear, the more it weighs you down, which will effect stamina, and other dexterity issues..  I wouldn't even have a separate mana pool.. They way I see it, just have everyone work off of stamina (energy).. If you are wearing heavy plate the sacrifice you'll have to deal with is increased stamina drain, reduces dodge and the less you can carry.. If you are a caster of magic, you'll cast spells that will drain your energy (stamina) just like a warrior burns through theirs..

     Playing a character should be more then just button mashing.. Just as players love tinkering around with talent trees, other parts of character management should be used as well..  If you want increased stamina pool, make sure you have stat food in your inventory as it was in the old days..

     As for EQN inventory issues of switching classes on the fly.. I assume they will go with a  "A&B" character screen.. Just like WoW allows players to switch talent roles with a cooldown..  I assume EQN will do the same..  GW2 does this already between combat and social appearance..

  Vannor

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2999

8/25/13 7:29:50 AM#32
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by Vannor
Originally posted by Enrif

and i thought this is mmoprg.com and not fantasyfan.com

Pathetic reply. Anything to try get one up eh? You know my point.. and you probably understand it. But you'll still keep saying silly stuff right?

Oh, i understand perfectly. But the Problem is not SOE or EQN or the change of Art style. But what you(the collective you) ignorantly blend out.

For one. Some people say the stylizied look aims for mainstream. is that so? Look at games of the last years and year to come: 

  • Guild Wars 2 - stylizied
  • FF14:ARR - realism
  • Firefall - stylizied
  • The Secret World - realism
  • Black Desert - realism
  • Wildstar - stylizied
  • EvE - realism
  • Destiny - realism
  • SWG - realism
  • The Repopulation -realism
  • WoW - sylizied
For two. Even if they change say Game of Thrones next season to another art direction, it is done before. Some time it was better, some time worse. Dont belive me, compare:
 
  • Snowwhite(Disney) - Snowwhite and the Huntsman
  • The "original" StarWars trilogy(4,5,6) - the new StarWars Trilogy(1,2,3) -  The Clone Wars
  • The Simpsons
  • All the different King Arthur movies
If a IP loses its identity has absolut nothing to do with the visual approach besides its the one and only thing that makes it unique. And then it doesent means its even  good. cause the thing someone likes in a Art direction can be disgusting to another. Just go to any Museum and see what artist did over the centuries. and everquest is not a game that is recognised by its visual approach. But by its mix of the stuff you can do and the lore. If they would use 8 bit art it would still be Everquest.
 

That's a load of random drivel. I don't like what SOE has done to the theme of their IP. Everything else you just said doesn't have anything to do with that. Plus, you can't understand that Snow White and King Arthur are not IPs. Simpsons hasn't changed art style.. they just got better at drawing. Star Wars The Clone Wars is a perfect example of what I'm talking about... it was to bring in a different audience. I don't know anyone that likes the original SW that likes the cartoons. I don't have a  problem with cartoony graphics. I like WoW and Kingdoms of Amular and that kind of thing. But I liked EQ for what it was and now it isn't. I also don't like the change to action combat (I like action combat, I just don't think it's anything to do with EQ) and horizontal progression... I haven't seen any ties to the original EQ series yet in features or in appearance. They are bullshitting the lore with this 'alternate dimension' talk.. even the world isn't going to be the same layout. Maybe some of the same names for towns but they aren't going to be in the same place or the same layout. Like I said before, it might be a good MMO.. but it's just got the EQ name slapped on it. This is a completely different game.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

8/25/13 8:25:30 AM#33

I agree Van.

     I was shocked to see that the game is nothing more then just ONE BIG landmass with no oceans to cross..  It's there an issue with water combat and actually swimming in it.. I thought I read something like that..  Where is my OOT and Kedge Keep :)  And as others brought up on the EQN forums, if you dig in a lake, can you drown all the mobs in the tier below?  and can you flood a lava cave with water?  hmmmm 

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/25/13 8:41:57 AM#34


Originally posted by Rydeson
I agree Enrif..

     I was shocked to see that the game is nothing more then just ONE BIG landmass with no oceans to cross..  It's there an issue with water combat and actually swimming in it.. I thought I read something like that..  Where is my OOT and Kedge Keep :)  And as others brought up on the EQN forums, if you dig in a lake, can you drown all the mobs in the tier below?  and can you flood a lava cave with water?  hmmmm 




Landmark will be adding other continents dynamically. It could just be that landmasses are expected to be large, and oceans as well.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

8/25/13 8:57:16 AM#35
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Rydeson
I agree Enrif..

 

     I was shocked to see that the game is nothing more then just ONE BIG landmass with no oceans to cross..  It's there an issue with water combat and actually swimming in it.. I thought I read something like that..  Where is my OOT and Kedge Keep :)  And as others brought up on the EQN forums, if you dig in a lake, can you drown all the mobs in the tier below?  and can you flood a lava cave with water?  hmmmm 




Landmark will be adding other continents dynamically. It could just be that landmasses are expected to be large, and oceans as well.

 

That is just pure speculation on your part, and nothing was said BY SOE about adding additional continents and oceans.. And it's still unclear if the game even allows underwater combat and movement..

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/25/13 9:36:50 AM#36


Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Rydeson I agree Enrif..        I was shocked to see that the game is nothing more then just ONE BIG landmass with no oceans to cross..  It's there an issue with water combat and actually swimming in it.. I thought I read something like that..  Where is my OOT and Kedge Keep :)  And as others brought up on the EQN forums, if you dig in a lake, can you drown all the mobs in the tier below?  and can you flood a lava cave with water?  hmmmm 
Landmark will be adding other continents dynamically. It could just be that landmasses are expected to be large, and oceans as well.  
That is just pure speculation on your part, and nothing was said BY SOE about adding additional continents and oceans.. And it's still unclear if the game even allows underwater combat and movement..


From Rock, Paper, Shotgun http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/02/forging-worlds-everquest-next-landmark/


Every new Landmark world will have one continent that is locked down, with the only content allowed fitting Norrath’s stylings. Because these tools will be available before Next, SOE want to encourage players to experiment with the different landscapes and materials that will be in the game at release. The best creations could be picked for inclusion in the game at launch. It’s not just in the design of the game that SOE want to experiment with new models.


So adding contents dynamically is an assumption on my part, but having more than one continent is not. It could just be that they expect landmasses to be very large, with the same expectations for oceans.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

8/25/13 9:47:44 AM#37
OMFG Liz.. I"m talking about the game EQN.. not that hobby mini tool Landmark...  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr  You do know there is a HUGE difference between the two.. right?
  Gnostik

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/12
Posts: 47

 
OP  8/25/13 10:45:13 AM#38

It has been addressed by some people already, but let me be clear: Being "locked in" to a class with limited, pre-defined options for armor, weapons, and abilities is not at all what I was arguing for. On the contrary, I have been waiting for a "mix-and-match" system that eschews clearly defined class roles for a while. But I'd prefer a good mix-and-match system to an arbitrary one where anything goes.

 

Let's use the example of a Rogue who can't wear plate. First of all, if there's no drawback to wearing plate, everyone will wear it. So purely from a design standpoint, there should be requirements and trade-offs for characters who want to wear heavier armor.

 

Now, if a character wants to wear plate armor - and do more than just wear it, but fight in it - he should have the strength and skill to be able to do so. This can be represented in the game in many ways. Classes from the original D&D were just one way to represent a character's limitations and preferences. And levels represented his skill in a certain style of fighting. A character could also do a quest from a fighter NPC to build up his ability to wear plate. Or maybe he has to build up his strength stat in the game first.

 

But if he does this, there should be a cost. His speed should suffer. His Rogue abilities shouldn't be as effective. After all, he's wearing plate armor now and shouldn't function the same way. Similarly, if I want to be a fighter who also slings fireballs, I shouldn't be able to fight and use magic both at the same high level as a character who focuses solely on one of those things. And if he's been doing nothing but fighting as a Rogue for the past 3 months, making this transition should take time. (Nothing too daunting, maybe a couple days in real time.)

 

The point here isn't to punish players for originality and limit their creativity. The point is to preserve the integrity of the game world and the "logic" of character development. When a character simply becomes a mannequin that can have any equipment or abilities attached to it on the fly, you're not really playing an RPG any more. By all means, give me the ability to play a plate-wearing Rogue or a battle mage. But make me develop my character into that role that I choose, don't just allow me to tick boxes on the fly and become anything at any time.

 

P.S. Actually having to develop your plate-wearing Rogue also, in my opinion, makes having that character much more rewarding for you, and impressive to other players. Compare "Oh, yeah, he's going fighter/rogue today, who knows what he'll be tomorrow" to "Yeah, he's a rogue who wears plate! I've only seen that like one other time."

  Gnostik

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/12
Posts: 47

 
OP  8/25/13 11:56:45 AM#39

Sorry for the double post, but in this video from yesterday Dave Georgeson elaborates on this more, around the 33:05 mark:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/everquestnext_eu/b/450075175

 

Dave Georgeson:

"Some people are worried, like, 'Oh, you mean I can't be everything?' and the answer is, 'Yes! You cannot be everything!' You're gonna have to basically decide what you're gonna be and go down these roads. You can be many things, but you won't necessarily be able to do everything, because of the choices you've made."

 

He says that to be a Shadowknight you need to be evil "consistently" or you won't get the chance to pick up that class. This all sounds very encouraging to me. Even if the classes are mostly broken down along Good/Neutral/Evil lines, if they're reflecting the character's past in some meaningful way I guess that's all I'm really asking for.

 

I have seen hype trains before, but I love the way these guys think - and they have the resources to follow through. I'm really excited.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

8/25/13 3:07:51 PM#40

Gnostik..

   You bring something I brought up the weekend of Sony Live and no one replied.. Maybe you can help..  Devs keep toting the multi-class grail as it's golf, but I have questions concerning swapping out skills and armor..  Let me give you an example and see what you think..

Warrior wears plate armor and has 1 offensive skill (Whirlwind)

Mage wears cloth and has 2 offensive skills (Fireball) and (Meteor Storm)

What good reason is there for a player to play a Mage class that is restricted to cloth, when they can just play Warrior (Plate) and swap out whirlwind for fireball?  I"m guessing there has to be more restrictions then what is being advertised.. This is the part that frost my butt, because it only makes sense that there has to be many unreported restrictions, but yet EQN glaze over the hype and not correct it..  It's almost like they WANT people to run a way with their assumptions in hyping the game..  Cuz right now I hear a lot of escalated assumptions from fans..

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