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EverQuest Next Forum » General Discussion » Tanking will be important in EverQuest: Next

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50 posts found
  Auladon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/13
Posts: 6

 
OP  8/24/13 7:49:10 PM#21
Originally posted by Gnostik
Originally posted by Alber_gamer
<snip>

Another vote for this post.

 

Anyone who's actually played a MOBA knows that tanks can work without needing to taunt. Yes, there are some abilities in MOBAs that force an enemy to attack you for a brief period. But they are few and far between, largely because they just aren't needed to make the tanks fun and effective.

 

Just forget about aggro and taunt. When tanks have interesting abilities that enemies have to react to, they are forced to attack the tank out of self-defense - no taunt mechanic needed.

 

In a game like LoL, if an enemy tank is on your team it's possible to ignore him for a little while and just let him harass you as you try to target the squishies. But when the squishies retreat, and the tank is still on you, what do you do? You can't just let him keep wearing down your team and disrupting you with CC. So some of you turn and start to CC him. At this point his squishy teammates come back and open up on your team, now that some of your cooldowns have been used. And when positioning matters, and classes have skill-shots, tanks perform a function by staying at the front to absorb incoming fire.

 

Interesting and useful tank gameplay is one thing LoL (at least) got right. This stuff is already happening in games, so I would assume the EQN team can pull off something similar, if not better.

 

Particularly when you factor in environmental deformation and destruction!

  Enrif

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 124

8/24/13 7:59:06 PM#22

if some peopel had very closly watched the skill presentations of the warrior and wizard they would had already seen how battle may works.

 

First - the warriors shildbash actually knocks the npcs away. and he uses it shortly (2~4 seconds later)after again. This is a very effective way of keeping the squishies safe by actualy defending them.

 

second - the wizards crystal wall. Heck, stuff like that makes battle more tactical without a taunt mechanic. It reminded me instantly of the bonewall from Diablo 2 necromancer. 

 

third - the wizards ubheavel(or something sound like that) and the warriors whirlwind. Destroying the way to the squishish, you dont need a tank. But dont think the npcs will just wait on the other side to be nuked away. some one sturdy has to be on the others side to keep them distracted(without a taunt or aggro mechanic)

 

fourth - it seems there is actual collision model(during the shildbash). This can be a superb way for tactical fights to even raids. Insteads of 1 or 2 tanks, 2 healer and  the rest dps you may need 5 tanky charakter to activly building a wall that the enemy has ether to surround or tear down to reach the more squishy one because they are in your way and not because they insult your mother.

Just think of 300. Frontline defends. Backline uses longer spears to attack the enemy that try to go through the shieldwall.

  jesusjuice69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/24/13 11:41:30 PM#23
Originally posted by Enrif

Just think of 300. Frontline defends. Backline uses longer spears to attack the enemy that try to go through the shieldwall.

They all had spears dude....  Do you think the guys in the front just carried shields?  LOL

You can clearly see they all have shields and spears.  It is basic knowledge from ancient History, and its just plain common sense.

The 2nd row of men could attack, but just barely. 

  Gallus85

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

8/24/13 11:48:11 PM#24
Originally posted by Vutar
And the problem they have to overcome is, if a tank type can't taunt, why should I take them over a DPS for the group or even another healer type.

As already mention, tanks are going to be important, but they will play differently in EQN.  They will be more active in their "tanking", more of short, heavy CCers... kicking mobs off healers, shield bashing dangerous foes stopping their big attacks, standing between attacks and blocking hits, etc, while also bringing DPS to the group.

Having a tank will be beneficial to the group, but it's not going to be "needed" (because it goes against their design concepts of grouping with specific people because you want* to group with those people, not because you NEED X class and the person you invited was the only one of X class online in the area).

In any case, it's going to be a more realistic style of tanking.  One that should be both much more fun to play than traditional "taunt tanks" and still be very desirable to have in groups.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  jesusjuice69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/24/13 11:54:11 PM#25
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Vutar
And the problem they have to overcome is, if a tank type can't taunt, why should I take them over a DPS for the group or even another healer type.

As already mention, tanks are going to be important, but they will play differently in EQN.  They will be more active in their "tanking", more of short, heavy CCers... kicking mobs off healers, shield bashing dangerous foes stopping their big attacks, standing between attacks and blocking hits, etc, while also bringing DPS to the group.

Having a tank will be beneficial to the group, but it's not going to be "needed" (because it goes against their design concepts of grouping with specific people because you want* to group with those people, not because you NEED X class and the person you invited was the only one of X class online in the area).

In any case, it's going to be a more realistic style of tanking.  One that should be both much more fun to play than traditional "taunt tanks" and still be very desirable to have in groups.

No they wont.   There will be no tank.

Even if you believe the warrior will act as a pest, then why reason does he have to be heavily defensive?  None!

 

The whole Moba comparison is BS, because in Mobas the squishy players die almost instantly.   The Tank merely servers as a distraction during initiation, and to CC. 

  rockin_ufo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 351

Zoraï

8/24/13 11:54:49 PM#26
Originally posted by Vahrane
Originally posted by rockin_ufo
Originally posted by Vutar
And the problem they have to overcome is, if a tank type can't taunt, why should I take them over a DPS for the group or even another healer type.

For the same reason in MOBA games you need one or two tanks..

      In a recent SoE interview Georgeson practically came right out and said they are going with a more MOBA style approach to combat. Really troubling news for me. I feel MOBA combat gets old with a quickness. The excuse was to avoid players fixating their attention on their ability refreshes and instead worrying about the situation at hand. I'm guessing its very beneficial to their yet to be announced PvP system as well, one which will end up playing like an open world MOBA.  

If you've played high-end League of Legends; no way does MOBA combat get old. I honestly don't like any PvP game outside of LoL and GW1, and both of them have amazing skill/combat mechanism. EQN is doing the same.

Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
'cause everyone thinks they're right,
And nobody thinks that there just might
Be more than one road to our final destination--

  Dracock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 76

8/25/13 4:58:34 AM#27

In MOBAs there are two basic kinds of champions that are designed to take damage. Tanks and Bruisers. Neither of these champions do as much damage as the vulnerable assassins, archers, and mages (some mages are more tanky but do less damage, so they fit more into the bruiser category). Their jobs are different, but both important.

A tank during a fight ideally starts with them initiating. All tank champions have the abilities to do things like AoE stun/slow, charge an enemy and disable them ect. This forces the enemy to deal with them. They are up front slowing/disabling, while the dps is behind them doing a lot of damage. The enemy now has to decide whether to walk through the tank or run.

If the enemy turns to fight. The tank now has the job to peel. In addition to their ability to initiate, tanks do things like flip enemies behind them, knock them away, and briefly taunt them (EQN could implement LoL version of taunt on a few classes, and it wouldn't be at odds with what the devs said). In addition to their usual AoE oriented CC's, this makes walking through a tank to the dps extremely difficult. The whole while the dps behind the tank is unleashing hell on them. After all, the dps have their own forms of CC and "escapes;" as well as support players to deal with.

If the enemy elects to run instead, the tank is still very useful. By following the target in front of everyone else, all the "dumb AI" attacks him first. In LoL this is things like "minions" and towers. This is easily adapted to EQN, which already said there are going to be disparities in mob intelligence. It makes sense that if one goblin runs into a room with other goblins, they are going to see the tank first and assume he is the big threat; unless you are dealing with particularly intelligent mobs.

Bruisers are not as "tanky" as tanks. The also tend to lack the kind of AoE disruption that characterizes tanks. They do however, retain the ability to close gaps (charge/sprint). They also tend to have single target disables, and do more damage than tanks. These characters are generally called "tanky dps."

During a fight, a bruiser will wait for the tank to initiate. After the initiation, they wait out any counter AoE CC the other team will do, than dive unto the most vulnerable target they can reach. If the job was done well, this creates a great deal of havoc to the enemy team. A bruiser that jumps on a squishy target will quickly win a face to face fight. The enemy team is left with either focusing on the bruiser, or letting their dps die. Neither is appealing.

There is some overlap with tanks when it comes to chasing, initiating, and peeling. Everything is situational. Generally though, bruisers want to be in a position to take advantage of their ability to win face to face fights. Tanks however, are more focused on drawing as much attention on them as possible.

From my perspective, there is much more depth in this kind of combat than the trinity provides. Some people go on about how MOBAs "get boring." To me, having only one guy deal with the agro is a lot more boring. I'll admit that the trinity sets up the game to be slower and less twitch based. However, I reject the notion that non trinity systems are "less strategic." It is decisively more strategic inherently. It just moves too quick for some people to follow.

LoL does get too fast for most players to follow everything in the moment. Its important to note that it is a PvP based arena game though. There is a lot of potentual to slow it down a bit when it comes to PvE. I'm sure that EQN PvP will be fairly fast paced however. But that is the case with most games.

 

  Rydeson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3114

8/25/13 5:31:28 AM#28

      The thing with LoL and other moba games is that it is arena (close quarters combat)..  Having tanks that do various AOE stuns and push backs is meaningless in a wide open world environment..  Any opponent will make sure to not stay huddled together for AOE's to be effective..  And we are till back to the question and assumption that everyone will be grouped in the game, which isn't the case..  So.................

     That being said, and Mr. Squishy is out soloing for crafting materials, I can only assume they will be able to solo almost everything.. Keeping that in mind, what keeps the game from turning into a 10 v ??? zergfest on harder mobs like GW2.. That is the trick.. If Squishy's can live through fights without controlling the fight, then there is no need or reason to tank.. We get zergfest instead.. 

  Dracock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 76

8/25/13 6:12:48 AM#29
Originally posted by Rydeson

      The thing with LoL and other moba games is that it is arena (close quarters combat)..  Having tanks that do various AOE stuns and push backs is meaningless in a wide open world environment..  Any opponent will make sure to not stay huddled together for AOE's to be effective..  And we are till back to the question and assumption that everyone will be grouped in the game, which isn't the case..  So.................


I'm just baffled as to why you think that. It's a pretty simple concept. Combat gets "close quarters" the moment it starts. Even if 4 orcs all decide to spider out and walk in spirals toward the ranged dps.

This is all very far removed from the typical MMORPG situation. Where you are crawling through dungeons or pulling packs. It's pretty easy to imagine why having a tank would be more convenient than kiting down corridors with 3 dps. Especially when those mobs might do stuff like shoot high damage arrows and charge.

 

  Rydeson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3114

8/25/13 7:02:08 AM#30
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Rydeson

      The thing with LoL and other moba games is that it is arena (close quarters combat)..  Having tanks that do various AOE stuns and push backs is meaningless in a wide open world environment..  Any opponent will make sure to not stay huddled together for AOE's to be effective..  And we are till back to the question and assumption that everyone will be grouped in the game, which isn't the case..  So.................


I'm just baffled as to why you think that. It's a pretty simple concept. Combat gets "close quarters" the moment it starts. Even if 4 orcs all decide to spider out and walk in spirals toward the ranged dps.

This is all very far removed from the typical MMORPG situation. Where you are crawling through dungeons or pulling packs. It's pretty easy to imagine why having a tank would be more convenient than kiting down corridors with 3 dps. Especially when those mobs might do stuff like shoot high damage arrows and charge.

 

     Did you even READ what I typed?   or were you just hell bent to argue for the fun of it.? I'm really not sure what your point is.. Feel free to elaborate more.. thanks

  Dracock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 76

8/25/13 7:35:53 AM#31
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Rydeson

      The thing with LoL and other moba games is that it is arena (close quarters combat)..  Having tanks that do various AOE stuns and push backs is meaningless in a wide open world environment..  Any opponent will make sure to not stay huddled together for AOE's to be effective..  And we are till back to the question and assumption that everyone will be grouped in the game, which isn't the case..  So.................


I'm just baffled as to why you think that. It's a pretty simple concept. Combat gets "close quarters" the moment it starts. Even if 4 orcs all decide to spider out and walk in spirals toward the ranged dps.

This is all very far removed from the typical MMORPG situation. Where you are crawling through dungeons or pulling packs. It's pretty easy to imagine why having a tank would be more convenient than kiting down corridors with 3 dps. Especially when those mobs might do stuff like shoot high damage arrows and charge.

 

     Did you even READ what I typed?   or were you just hell bent to argue for the fun of it.? I'm really not sure what your point is.. Feel free to elaborate more.. thanks

You argued that somehow MOBA is more about "close quarter combat" than MMORPGs. Its nonsensical. AoE works in south karana, just as well as it does in a dungeon, just as well as it does in a moba.
  Rydeson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3114

8/25/13 7:48:34 AM#32
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Rydeson

      The thing with LoL and other moba games is that it is arena (close quarters combat)..  Having tanks that do various AOE stuns and push backs is meaningless in a wide open world environment..  Any opponent will make sure to not stay huddled together for AOE's to be effective..  And we are till back to the question and assumption that everyone will be grouped in the game, which isn't the case..  So.................


I'm just baffled as to why you think that. It's a pretty simple concept. Combat gets "close quarters" the moment it starts. Even if 4 orcs all decide to spider out and walk in spirals toward the ranged dps.

This is all very far removed from the typical MMORPG situation. Where you are crawling through dungeons or pulling packs. It's pretty easy to imagine why having a tank would be more convenient than kiting down corridors with 3 dps. Especially when those mobs might do stuff like shoot high damage arrows and charge.

 

     Did you even READ what I typed?   or were you just hell bent to argue for the fun of it.? I'm really not sure what your point is.. Feel free to elaborate more.. thanks

You argued that somehow MOBA is more about "close quarter combat" than MMORPGs. Its nonsensical. AoE works in south karana, just as well as it does in a dungeon, just as well as it does in a moba.

     OK.. you are way OFF from what I was saying..  In MOBA games, you are fighting in a restricted area, giving AOE abilities a reason to be used..   If you are in the open world were mobs are mostly likely by themselves or spread out, it's stupid to use AOE's.. and often have little effect..  It's just like when I'm doing PvP in WoW..  I don't toss our AOE's every time the cooldown says I can..  I'm sure the WoW warrior was pissed as hell when their "stomps" only stunned one person and the other 3 kept on shooting them at a distance..

     As for your South Karana thing..... Really?  AOE's were SELDOM used in wide open land areas, unless you had a tank that can taunt and gather up the mobs.. or you were a kiting class like I was (DRUID).. And from what I'm hearing, Taunting and Kiting will NOT be in the game..  so basically unless your AOE has a 15 mile radius effect, it's useless

OOPS Edit.. I take that back about the tank.. if your EQ tank is fighting 3 or 4 mobs at a time, he's DEAD.. AOE spells in EQ were not as uber as their are in WoW..

  Dracock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 76

8/25/13 8:49:30 AM#33
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Dracock
Originally posted by Rydeson

      The thing with LoL and other moba games is that it is arena (close quarters combat)..  Having tanks that do various AOE stuns and push backs is meaningless in a wide open world environment..  Any opponent will make sure to not stay huddled together for AOE's to be effective..  And we are till back to the question and assumption that everyone will be grouped in the game, which isn't the case..  So.................


I'm just baffled as to why you think that. It's a pretty simple concept. Combat gets "close quarters" the moment it starts. Even if 4 orcs all decide to spider out and walk in spirals toward the ranged dps.

This is all very far removed from the typical MMORPG situation. Where you are crawling through dungeons or pulling packs. It's pretty easy to imagine why having a tank would be more convenient than kiting down corridors with 3 dps. Especially when those mobs might do stuff like shoot high damage arrows and charge.

 

     Did you even READ what I typed?   or were you just hell bent to argue for the fun of it.? I'm really not sure what your point is.. Feel free to elaborate more.. thanks

You argued that somehow MOBA is more about "close quarter combat" than MMORPGs. Its nonsensical. AoE works in south karana, just as well as it does in a dungeon, just as well as it does in a moba.

     OK.. you are way OFF from what I was saying..  In MOBA games, you are fighting in a restricted area, giving AOE abilities a reason to be used..   If you are in the open world were mobs are mostly likely by themselves or spread out, it's stupid to use AOE's.. and often have little effect..  It's just like when I'm doing PvP in WoW..  I don't toss our AOE's every time the cooldown says I can..  I'm sure the WoW warrior was pissed as hell when their "stomps" only stunned one person and the other 3 kept on shooting them at a distance..

     As for your South Karana thing..... Really?  AOE's were SELDOM used in wide open land areas, unless you had a tank that can taunt and gather up the mobs.. or you were a kiting class like I was (DRUID).. And from what I'm hearing, Taunting and Kiting will NOT be in the game..  so basically unless your AOE has a 15 mile radius effect, it's useless

OOPS Edit.. I take that back about the tank.. if your EQ tank is fighting 3 or 4 mobs at a time, he's DEAD.. AOE spells in EQ were not as uber as their are in WoW..

That's a brilliant argument. No one used AoE in open world zones except for all those people that used AoE in open zones...Given that Wizards and Druids were famous for primarily leveling from AoE kiting mobs, I wouldn't call it "seldom." It Literally was happening everyday at all hours.

This is a bit unrelated to the primary point here. If a tank can use an AoE to stun mobs, than its going to work outdoors. Are you trying to argue this point? You seem to think there's something about being outdoors that makes AoE unviable...as if there will be no way to get the mobs close to one another. Here's an idea: stand next to each other! Even the fact the AoE stuns would work is rather narrow analysis of the many other ways tanks peel and initiate.

The issue here is we keep talking about open zones as if its the epitome of group play an MMOs. When the reality is it tends to be enclosed dungeons that are stereotypically group required. Even if that wasn't the case, it still doesn't really follow that MOBAs are much more enclosed that outdoor zones. The "arena" in LoL and DotA, is a rather big place with 3 lanes, forests, rivers, and its outdoors.

So to recap:

Its wrong to say AoE doesn't work outdoors

Its wrong to say tank peel doesn't work outdoors

Its wrong to say MOBAs are inherently more enclosed than MMORPG combat

And most importantly, its wrong to say you need taunt for tanks to viable.

 

 

  dontadow

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1042

8/25/13 8:55:30 AM#34

Taunting is the single most idiotic mechanic I've experienced in games. The only time I've experienced it is in traditional MMOs.  Games try hard to write stories and classes and races that are engrossing and then they enclude a mechanic that asks you to suspend belief and believe that this intellgent king of hte undead is so infuriated because you called out his mother that he forgets the people attacking him and focuses on the least (truly) threatening people. 

It's so anti dungeons and dragons I have no idea where it came from.  Classic dnd strategy, always take out the healer and squishy people first.  But nope, not MMOs, because that boss is real sensitive about his weight. 

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 10803

8/25/13 8:57:36 AM#35
Originally posted by Dracock

So to recap:

Its wrong to say AoE doesn't work outdoors

Its wrong to say tank peel doesn't work outdoors

Its wrong to say MOBAs are inherently more enclosed than MMORPG combat

And most importantly, its wrong to say you need taunt for tanks to viable.

AE do work but if you an AI like Guild Wars 1

-- mobs will move out of the fixed AE range

 

example: Firestorm is an AE that lasts 10 seconds but mobs dont stand in it taking dmg

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fire_Storm

  Dracock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 76

8/25/13 9:02:36 AM#36
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Dracock

So to recap:

Its wrong to say AoE doesn't work outdoors

Its wrong to say tank peel doesn't work outdoors

Its wrong to say MOBAs are inherently more enclosed than MMORPG combat

And most importantly, its wrong to say you need taunt for tanks to viable.

AE do work but if you an AI like Guild Wars 1

-- mobs will move out of the fixed AE range

 

example: Firestorm is an AE that lasts 10 seconds but mobs dont stand in it taking dmg

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fire_Storm

Again, that's not really what I'm talking about. I was referring to tanks ability to slow/stun people with AoEs in MOBAs, and how it would work just fine in MMORPG setting. This is just one of the ways Tank characters can cause a great deal of disruption to mobs who would sooner ignore them.
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 10803

8/25/13 9:24:03 AM#37

apologies for the misunderstanding

 

ive never played MOBAs so i dont know the mechanics

but I have heavily played GW1 which is a much different game than GW2

 

GW1 is another game w no taunt and a variety of defensive tactics for Warriors

  koboldfodder

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 344

8/25/13 9:38:12 AM#38

This is EQ.  There will be tanks there will be damage dealers there will be healers there will be utility abilities.  They may not be thinking in old school ways, but there will be these things in the game.  Even if they want to go in a totally different direction, they will end up putting in core class abilities at some point.

 

SOE has had major overhauls in quite a few of their games.  Some, like SWG, took a while to get going and sunk the game.  EQ2 had a major game overhaul in the very beginning and that saved the game.

 

So while they may want to make it a GW2 type of combat experience or a MOBA thing....it will shift to focus on core class abilities at some point. 

 

AI in every MMORPG is garbage.  That is the one common factor.  Players will always be smarter, will always take the easy way to defeat mobs and encounters.  If a player figures out that they can stand on a giant rock and just snipe enemies all day long without getting hit....you better believe you will see massive numbers of people AFKing on rocks.

 

At some point, hopefully very shortly in Beta, they will figure out they need to actually create encounters that are more than GW2's "20 people soloing the same mob" otherwise the game gets boring.  They will put in more traditional stuff but they will keep faster pace action type of combat.

 

If that means they have to add taunt buttons and threat mechanics as well as de-taunt mechanics...then that is what will happen.

  User Deleted
8/25/13 10:10:25 AM#39
Originally posted by jesusjuice69
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Vutar
And the problem they have to overcome is, if a tank type can't taunt, why should I take them over a DPS for the group or even another healer type.

As already mention, tanks are going to be important, but they will play differently in EQN.  They will be more active in their "tanking", more of short, heavy CCers... kicking mobs off healers, shield bashing dangerous foes stopping their big attacks, standing between attacks and blocking hits, etc, while also bringing DPS to the group.

Having a tank will be beneficial to the group, but it's not going to be "needed" (because it goes against their design concepts of grouping with specific people because you want* to group with those people, not because you NEED X class and the person you invited was the only one of X class online in the area).

In any case, it's going to be a more realistic style of tanking.  One that should be both much more fun to play than traditional "taunt tanks" and still be very desirable to have in groups.

No they wont.   There will be no tank.

Even if you believe the warrior will act as a pest, then why reason does he have to be heavily defensive?  None!

 

The whole Moba comparison is BS, because in Mobas the squishy players die almost instantly.   The Tank merely servers as a distraction during initiation, and to CC. 

 

What reason does he have to be heavily defensive? Oh I don't know, the fact that he is pestering them in melee range to get them to focus on him (the heavily armoured person) instead of the physically weaker companions?

Heavy armour fighters (might as well stop calling them tanks) lack the avoidance and trickery that rogues and other melee fighters have, and instead use armour protection to compensate for lack of mobility / agility.

There is no reason they should be doing significantly lower damage either, that was a distinction made for the trinity so that DPS had a role. Without the trinity they are just a melee fighter who plays defensively rather than using avoidance.   

  Agathos88

Novice Member

Joined: 12/20/03
Posts: 79

8/25/13 10:12:58 AM#40
There really isn't enough information to justify any particular roles importance just yet.

If you can name it, I've probably played it, regardless of how underground you think it is.

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