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Black Desert Forum » General Discussion » a real Crafting System?? don't make me angy..

18 posts found
  nikobellic

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  7/05/13 4:50:36 AM#1

yes, don't say "crafting system" if you are not really planning on delivering it, please! i really want to see a REAL crafting system in this game! (or just any game)

i think that a good crafting system and a real crafting professions tree is what all mmo games today are missing. yes, i do mean ALL. i know that some games have "crafting options" but they are so underdeveloped. if the game does not offer you a chance to get rich and popular just as a crafter only then they better not have any crafting in the game at all.

i may sound arrogant, but the only game that has ever truly achieved this so far was the first SWG - players fell in loved with the crafting system it offered, until the game got screwed later by a "smart" marketing lady, as most people know. if anyone should talk about crafting i think they first must really study the SWG crafting system and its mechanics, every aspect of it, and how that makes the game extremely immerging. because that is how it's done. i know many would think "oh yeah, i know what crafting is" - and i really feel safe to answer - no, you don't - if you are not familiar with the SWG crafting - you don't.

from what the BD devs have released so far i do not believe there will be such a crafting system in the game, even that they've mentioned it. i honestly believe that most devs today are really incapable of delivering a good crafting system - i believe it. we somehow perceive them as gods that do what they think they should do, but that's not true. the answer might be that simply they can NOT do it. yes. after millions of discussions and "talking to the fans" most of them continue to deliver only crap. crap after crap after crap..

so, "crafting system"? ok, we wait and see.....

  alyosha17

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/10
Posts: 163

7/08/13 2:32:47 AM#2
Originally posted by nikobellic

i may sound arrogant, but the only game that has ever truly achieved this so far was the first SWG

 

FFXIV did it fairly well also, lag notwithstanding.  For example, they designed the game around crafting and gathering classes being their own classes.  Crafting and gathering had minigames where you would try to balance certain abilities & control certain aspects of the process in order to get optimal quality, and the effect of which would yield different outcomes (higher quality items, higher yields, etc).  Using different tools would also alter the outcome.  The crafting system in that game wasn't perfect, and its potential definitely wasn't tapped, but the most important thing was that 99% of gear was created by crafters, and all materials were harvested by gatherers or fighting classes.  Monsters would drop materials, not premade gear.  It really created an integrated economy where all classes were important.

 

In my opinion, FFXIV set a high standard for crafting & their original vision for it had a lot of merit.  The same isn't exactly true nowadays, of course.

 

For a crafting system to really be interesting, I think they need to also focus on the market side of things (buying and selling).  For example, allow players to gain access to restricted recipes (either through questing or some other means, perhaps purchasing them).  This would set up some level of specialisation for individual crafters.  The game should also focus on how the items are sold.  An auction house is fine, however, allowing players to set up their own shops to gain recognition would also increase the relevance of the mercantile aspect of the game, although making it increasingly annoying for people who do not want to be involved in this type of gameplay.  So there has to be a happy medium between allowing merchants to set up shops and allowing other players easy access to what they are selling without running around half the world searching individual player stores.

  nikobellic

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  7/11/13 8:35:32 AM#3
"..most important thing was that 99% of gear was created by crafters.."
 
and this is exactly what i am talking about - even if just 60% of the gear was created by pure crafting classes that would be enough for the game to claim it has a crafting system in it. this is what will make the game feel like a real world. economy demmands a true crafting system. but if they just let the fighters develop crafting skills as an option - then that's just lame and won't cut it - that would be just a hack-and-slash game with a couple gay additions..... instead, just let me have up to 2 or 3 characters on the server and let me decide what classes they should be.
 
if the devs created all this massive and so cool-looking world anyway, why not adding some good range of resources (practically invisible items) to it, accomplishing a true world?
 
i thought i would only play a combat class before, but one of my character in SWGalaxies was a weaponsmith and i spent more time on that one even though i wasn't the best. and the actual players that i really looked up to were crafters. combat classes were fun, but the true classes that gave SWG life were the crafters, engineers and even the entertainers. so what i'm saying is - if the BD is already there, just open the doors for the real crafters and make the game complete - what is to loose?....
 
working on a siege system in comparison sounds totally unattracting and a just a waste of resources..
  Mastrshadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/09
Posts: 14

7/11/13 8:45:58 AM#4

FF XI was also heavily crafter dependent. I don't know how deep you require the actual crafting process to be but it fits with the make a living as a crafter bit.

 

I think the best game I've played that fits your standard is Vanguard: SoH. You actually had steps to each section of crafting with a pool of action points. With limited resources you had to get the quality as high as possible (and were graded on it) while keeping the durability from hitting 0 and failing the craft. Different grades made different items as well as the combination of materials used made different items. It was sort of a hybrid recipie/alchemy like system.

The main reason I think this fits the bill is that you could level 1 to max level as a crafter and never pick up a sword. You had crafter specific gear, crafter specific quests and crafter specific levels. Work orders helped with the level grind when you didn't have mats and would reward with coin and mats.

 

I would also love to see another indepth crafting system along with a real world, not these tiny pump them out asap games we've been getting.

  alyosha17

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/10
Posts: 163

7/11/13 11:06:06 AM#5
Originally posted by Mastrshadow

FF XI was also heavily crafter dependent. I don't know how deep you require the actual crafting process to be but it fits with the make a living as a crafter bit.

 

I think the best game I've played that fits your standard is Vanguard: SoH. You actually had steps to each section of crafting with a pool of action points. With limited resources you had to get the quality as high as possible (and were graded on it) while keeping the durability from hitting 0 and failing the craft. Different grades made different items as well as the combination of materials used made different items. It was sort of a hybrid recipie/alchemy like system.

The main reason I think this fits the bill is that you could level 1 to max level as a crafter and never pick up a sword. You had crafter specific gear, crafter specific quests and crafter specific levels. Work orders helped with the level grind when you didn't have mats and would reward with coin and mats.

 

I would also love to see another indepth crafting system along with a real world, not these tiny pump them out asap games we've been getting.

FFXIV system was basically a carbon copy of Vanguard's system, except you had portable crafting tools and could craft anywhere.

  nikobellic

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  7/13/13 8:45:07 AM#6

i admin i never played any FF game or vanguard, but what you are explaining here sounds good.

a real crafter should know when and what to sacrifice, when to wait for a better resource of a certain type shifts to the server, constantly cruising the map, surveying for new resources, constructing and maintaining harverstors and factories, bidding on the market for quality resources he missed, even camping on community resource tracking websites to get the bes of the best..

and then - all buffed with the best crafting buffs on the server, wearing the best crafting gear - he builds that one great item, as a a single built or as a factory production line, altering it in the process towards a desired factor, evaluating the risk of destrying the item at every step of the process and taking that risk.. making it completely unique, with his character's name in the item's info/stats.

this is involvement - in a true crafting profession. and no one will complain if that item is overpriced...

and hopefully the devs don't pay much attention to the loosers complaining that this item is overpowered, whuch is a whole another issue... advanced crafting without nerfing!! who wouldn't love such a game?? :))

  alyosha17

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/10
Posts: 163

7/14/13 1:15:18 AM#7
Originally posted by nikobellic

and hopefully the devs don't pay much attention to the loosers complaining that this item is overpowered, whuch is a whole another issue... advanced crafting without nerfing!! who wouldn't love such a game?? :))

Funnily enough, a lot of players actually dislike it when developers focus on crafters, even a little bit.  From experience with other games that did this, there are many players who have a level of expectation of how MMOs should be, and therefore really hated the fact that everything was crafted, and they had to rely on other people/the market to get gear and weapons.  Perhaps it was a matter of balance, but perhaps it was actually just a matter of them hating the fact that they weren't 100% self sufficient as in other games they played.

 

The problem is there will always be people that like one type of a system over another, so I just hope the developers maintain some integrity and don't just buckle to the pressure of the majority who like simplistic systems like in most MMOs.

  nikobellic

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  7/14/13 5:05:38 AM#8
"..simplistic systems like in most MMOs"
 
i agree with you. and today's market if full of such simplistic system MMOs, attracting only children.. if BD is going to target this up to 14 years age market there's no point to even discuss it.. the most intelligent and dedicated players that i've met in MMO were crafters from SWG. i don't think that if the devs let the inteligent crowd in this BD the game would suffer disbalance.. maybe the crafters would be the richest players in it, why not? especially looking at the (what is known so far) the weird housing rental system that the game is planning on having it sounds to me that those nice ass houses should be occupied by rich crafters, not by warriors. with a little testing it should be easy to find a nice (even if not perfect) balance between crafters and fighters in the game.
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3173

7/14/13 5:34:12 AM#9
Originally posted by alyosha17
Originally posted by nikobellic

and hopefully the devs don't pay much attention to the loosers complaining that this item is overpowered, whuch is a whole another issue... advanced crafting without nerfing!! who wouldn't love such a game?? :))

Funnily enough, a lot of players actually dislike it when developers focus on crafters, even a little bit.  From experience with other games that did this, there are many players who have a level of expectation of how MMOs should be, and therefore really hated the fact that everything was crafted, and they had to rely on other people/the market to get gear and weapons.  Perhaps it was a matter of balance, but perhaps it was actually just a matter of them hating the fact that they weren't 100% self sufficient as in other games they played.

 

The problem is there will always be people that like one type of a system over another, so I just hope the developers maintain some integrity and don't just buckle to the pressure of the majority who like simplistic systems like in most MMOs.

I'm an enthusiastic MMO crafter and trader, but over the years I've realised that I'm part of a fairly small minority in MMO's.

 

The "average crafter" in modern MMO's is not really a crafter at all, it's just somebody who wants the benefits of making their own gear or consumables, preferably with the minimum effort and time involved.

 

That's why we ended-up with the "crafting systems" of games like SWTOR and STO and Neverwinter, where you have NPC companions that do your crafting and gathering ! All the player has to do is say "Go gather stuff !" or "Make this item !" and then carry on playing the "real" game. They never have to waste time on crafting, yet they still get all the benefits 

 

I doubt we'll ever see anything remotely close to SWG's crafting system in any AAA MMO ever again. It's simply not cost effective to develop, test and implement such a complex system if it's not going to appeal to or be used by the majority of the playerbase.

  nikobellic

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  7/14/13 6:24:10 AM#10
Originally posted by SpottyGekko
...

I doubt we'll ever see anything remotely close to SWG's crafting system in any AAA MMO ever again. It's simply not cost effective to develop, test and implement such a complex system if it's not going to appeal to or be used by the majority of the playerbase.

screw the majority.. lol.. crafting is not for everyone. this doesn't mean there is no room for it in a mmo. i've never look at the statistics of professions in early SWG (pre NGE and pre CU) but i think that minimum 20% of the players were traders/crafters. this is not so small of a market. even if the game focuses on combat, traders/crafters, entertainers and medics make the game complete and therefore much more appealing even to combat-only lovers, because it creates a true world.

 

as far as how complex is to build a good crafting system, i don't think it's that heavy on resources. it is all formulas and matematics, and if any dev is still confused - hey, just borrow it from early SWG, dumb ass!! :)))

  Torcip

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 639

7/16/13 10:38:05 AM#11
If you want a deep and complex crafting game where you can play the game and become rich and famous with just crafting play EVE Online. Beats the snot out of SWG crafting IMO.
  nikobellic

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 10

 
OP  7/17/13 1:07:34 PM#12
Originally posted by Torcip
If you want a deep and complex crafting game where you can play the game and become rich and famous with just crafting play EVE Online. Beats the snot out of SWG crafting IMO.

well, i missed on EVE because i was all into SWG at the time, but i've heard very positive things about it.. 10 years would be a little too late.. :-/  if EVE II comes out then sure - will try it.

and i know i'm asking for too much from a f-t-p game like black desert.. i just really liked the world we saw in the trailers and read that there would be a crafting system in it.. and since i really miss the crafting that swg offered i started barking at the wrong tree.. :-/

  Torcip

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 639

7/17/13 1:40:54 PM#13
It's unlikely a new game to be released with crafting like EVE or SWG, devs just don't want to spend the kind of time working on systems like that when they know they could get more people to play if they tout pvp and raiding instead. 
  SimonVDH

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 177

7/17/13 4:58:01 PM#14
Originally posted by Torcip
If you want a deep and complex crafting game where you can play the game and become rich and famous with just crafting play EVE Online.

^^This.

 

The first and most important condition for a miningfull and satisfying crafting system in a MMO is player driven economy. This usually means a sanbox game, not a themepark where you get best gear / crating materials from "end-game raids". It also, usually, means a PvP-centric game, as opposed to PvE-centric, becouse PvE needs best rewards for finishing hardest content - otherwise there would be no incentive to play the game.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1832

7/18/13 2:00:22 PM#15

Repeatable crafting makes good crafting. The reason it worked in SWG was decay.

The reason it works or in some cases, doesn't work in EVE is lack of decay and PvP driven. You can't make a profit "crafting" in EVE. Anyone saying you can is a bald faced liar. Most ISK is gotten from farmed blue loots, not manufacturing. Market orders are won and lost by .01 ISK on a 5 minute cycle and everyone knows it.

 

Games like Black Desert, games like ArcheAge plug the epic content, the castles and the giant undertakings but compare it to Titans or blue fit Bhaalgorns and Machariels in EVE. People will do it once and never again. It's going to be the same in BD and AA. Castle! Spend months getting shopping lists together to make something like that, lose it and never try again because  time in and time out won't match up.

 

True crafting is about losing what you don't mind losing, making more, buying more, never being forced to bow to a monopoly or a cartel. I don't know if BD will be able to make this happen. It's still way too early.

  Naral

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/10
Posts: 754

7/24/13 12:55:39 PM#16
Originally posted by free2play

Repeatable crafting makes good crafting. The reason it worked in SWG was decay.

The reason it works or in some cases, doesn't work in EVE is lack of decay and PvP driven. You can't make a profit "crafting" in EVE. Anyone saying you can is a bald faced liar. Most ISK is gotten from farmed blue loots, not manufacturing. Market orders are won and lost by .01 ISK on a 5 minute cycle and everyone knows it.

 

Games like Black Desert, games like ArcheAge plug the epic content, the castles and the giant undertakings but compare it to Titans or blue fit Bhaalgorns and Machariels in EVE. People will do it once and never again. It's going to be the same in BD and AA. Castle! Spend months getting shopping lists together to make something like that, lose it and never try again because  time in and time out won't match up.

 

True crafting is about losing what you don't mind losing, making more, buying more, never being forced to bow to a monopoly or a cartel. I don't know if BD will be able to make this happen. It's still way too early.

This is a very intelligent and well written comment on MMO economy and crafting. I wish more developers would cater to the player who wants to make a living in a game world in a way that does not involve running to a yellow exclamation point, but allows them to trade and prosper, and then have things to spend that money on.

What it comes down to, for me at least, is that most devs are building games, not worlds. The worlds are superficial places to set their game with little meaning or attachment to the player. I played WoW for years and know jack squat about the lore, and never felt drawn enough to the world to care. 

 

  Konfess

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 796

7/24/13 2:51:47 PM#17

Two points, If you try and recreate the SWG crafting system in a game, the owners of that system will sue you.  The player base has repeatedly said, they hate being dependant on other players for their game play.  Be it buffs, gear items, or heals  they hate it.  The over inflated prices charged for at best mediocre items.


SWG’s crafting depended on 1 character per server, and crafting limiting the combat class.  SWG used a 250 point system to build a character class.  Crafting was considered a class not a separate profession.  Typically 250 points allowed 2.5 classes to be masters.  You could take 2.5 combat classes and depend on Doctors and Entertainers for your healing and buffs. Plus Expensive Crafters for your gear, that constantly wore down to zero durability and became unusable.  


Let me repeat, Armour and weapons didn’t last forever, they lasted for weeks or months of game play.  Even if you repaired items they might only last 8 months at best.  This crafted item only game didn’t even have stats on items.  Here is an example of sample stats: (These are all the same weapon Laser Rifle)

Dur   919   919   1000    750

AtS   5.7    5.7     6.6      8.0

Min   30     30      19       33

Max   373   373    327    972

W     21.9% 21.9% 15.07 16.1%

AC (Damage you take each time you fire this gun)

H       15      15       15      10

A        34      34       23      14

M        61      61       62      53

Price 30600 3000 15000 60000


Durability Dur

Attack Speed AtS

Wound W

Attack Cost

Health

Action

Mind


Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.

  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

8/03/13 10:23:50 AM#18

Such a relieving good discusion going on here.

 

One of the hallmarks of downfall of the mMORPG genre is that crafting got more andmore dumped down.

By nature a crafter seeks for more complexity and creativity in a game world and all those "new gen" sa called "sandboxes" do a poor job on satisfying these basic reason  why we all play MMORPG's.

You can aim and shoot on stuff, you can jump around in so many game genres. Why MMORPG's have to stay at the same level of such action games these days ?

The point of MMORPG's is to build and to create influencing the environment. Developers should return to these game paradigm to play MMORPG's strongest card and justify the label "being a MMORPG" (only sandbox MMORPG is a valifd MMORPG, themeparks are degenerated abnormality).

Jumping around and shooting can be done in so many FPS shooters, itz can have a part in MMORPG's but a MMORPG's should shine in the creative departement of creating and crafting stuff and deliver rich interactions with environment.

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