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Shroud of the Avatar Forum » General Discussion » If it doesn't have player looting and stealing, the game will fail.

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295 posts found
  Slampig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2378

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

10/12/13 6:44:14 AM#221
Originally posted by VikingGamer
UO as originally released proved exactly the opposite. Try again.

And aside from MUDs there was what, Meridian 59? UO didn't have a ton of competition and when you are basically the only kid on the block what else is there for players to play? Of COURSE it was going to have success, it was really the only thing going.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Bitshift

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/11
Posts: 31

10/29/13 4:15:37 AM#222
Originally posted by Komandor

 

1 - Full Loot just supports ganking and griefing

Then pay someone protection money. What... 2real4u?

 

Too lazy to quote me with my name? Haven't seen that "argument" of yours in that wall of quote text.

To your point:

Let's take your "perfect concepted" MO as an example: If you will pay 20 Gold to find a player that has nothing better to do than follow you to watch how you will chop wood or mine for six hours to earn 10 Gold worth of stuff (see the problem here?), then i wish you good luck, you won't find anyone that is dumb enough to bore himself to dead. This is one point. The other one is: Then the gankers will just come with two or more ppl, and welcome back again to Grieffest Online. This is completly unrealistic thinking here. And the main point is: This is not part of any territory struggles, this is just random killing. In many cases, they don't even care about your stuff.

Oh by the way: If "2real4u" (you are one 1337 killing machine, am i right? Hell yeah!) means "Boring to hell" or "realism over gameplay", than you are right: This is nothing for me (and 90% of the other gamers).

You simply can't put players into certain roles to play the game as you or the developers want it to be, not in an MMORPG. Some devs just don't want to see that, and that is one part of the fail galore.

 


2 - Loosing your Gear due to point 1 prevents 'casual' people from taking part in PvP encounters

Then they shouldn't leave their safe little city dwelling where the wild things roam (and pks)! 2stressful4u?

 

Gosh, this is even too silly to answer to. People want to go out to wilderness, they want to explore and take risks for valuable items, this is so plain clear, even you should get that. Stressful means: Going out and get randomly killed by a group. This no risk, because risk intends to have a chance. This is just no fun in the sense of frustration. Your argument (let me guess): Go play in a guild or hire a group. So that there are six people are watching me woodchopping. What a brillant concept.... No, thanks, then i prefer real time work, if you know what that is. Then i can buy me some more REALLY fun games. 

 

 


Due to full loot, Equipment must be rather fast replaceable, which means that gear has no meaning or representive purpose anymore, everyone playing in a guild will have the same cooky butter gear, the casuals will have low tier stuff which will disadvantage them even more.

That's great! Maybe actually it's time when PLAYER SILLS STARTS MATTERING?

So i have an argument why player skills does NOT be of any meaning here, and your con argument is PLAYER SKILLS? 

If you as a player can only do like 10-20% of the damage of your enemy, and you are equal or even better than him, you will loose. How is player skill relevant here? Oh yeah, wait... In MO you could glitch and trick around one, veteran player means: Knows all nasty prediction issues and uses them to his advantage. Fair? No.

This is a very conceptual issue, as the gear scales to much even at high tier levels. Of course, if anyone has exactly the same cooky butter gear, skill will matter. But why even play an MMORPG if you can't choose what to use?

 

 


A perfect example of not doing it right is Mortal Online.

The only reason MO failed is because sloppy programming and bugs. The game was intended perfectly otherwise.

 

Perfectly? Come on. It is the best we have, because there simply is no other game in that style out there (Darkfall is NOT comparable IMO). The next three years will release MANY high quality indie hardcore medieval titles, MO (and Darkfall) will have a hard time to survive them. The indie industry has recognized that the sandbox theme is getting more popular, and a good running niche game is better than nothing.

  Alber_gamer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/08/12
Posts: 446

10/29/13 4:25:59 AM#223
This game can only succeed if it doesn't have full looting and player stealing as proven by every previous game that had a similar approach to PvP, time after time.

My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  Aragon100

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2198

10/29/13 8:45:29 AM#224
Originally posted by Alber_gamer
This game can only succeed if it doesn't have full looting and player stealing as proven by every previous game that had a similar approach to PvP, time after time.

Oldschool Ultima Online, before Age of Shadows ruined it, had full loot/stealing and felucca was doing just fine even after trammel were introduced. This is something many dont understand. During UO Renaissance (after trammel) i had my best time playing UO in felucca. The place was crowded.

So claiming game with full looting and stealing dont work just isnt right. I was there and saw it worked just fine.

If Richard Garriott had went for creating a new UO game with full loot and stealing non-consensual then he would have had alot more followers. That would have been going back to his online roots and a truly unique game compared to just another themepark game as SotA.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10377

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/29/13 11:59:22 AM#225


Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by Alber_gamer This game can only succeed if it doesn't have full looting and player stealing as proven by every previous game that had a similar approach to PvP, time after time.
Oldschool Ultima Online, before Age of Shadows ruined it, had full loot/stealing and felucca was doing just fine even after trammel were introduced. This is something many dont understand. During UO Renaissance (after trammel) i had my best time playing UO in felucca. The place was crowded.

So claiming game with full looting and stealing dont work just isnt right. I was there and saw it worked just fine.

If Richard Garriott had went for creating a new UO game with full loot and stealing non-consensual then he would have had alot more followers. That would have been going back to his online roots and a truly unique game compared to just another themepark game as SotA.

 




You may have had your best time in the game, but most of the player population did not. Trammel was introduced as a direct response to player complaints. There had to be many of them for the developer to listen. There also had to be additional evidence that not having the option to avoid those mechanics was having a negative impact on the game. Some of Richard Garriott's own personal experience influenced the decision as well. Joystiq/Massively Interview With Richard Garriott

Player killing, looting and theft are interesting ideas, the problem is that they never work out that well when you give players the freedom to use those mechanics. It's only fun for a few people. That's why MMORPG and MMORPG-like games are moving away from those mechanics, or at least offering players the choice.

If SotA was a PK game with looting and stealing, it would certainly have the support of those players, but it would have far less support than it currently has because those mechanics are among the least popular options.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  demonic87

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 436

10/29/13 12:09:28 PM#226

I'm sorry but "UO did great!" means absolutely nothing. Cool, a dated game with dated ideas did great YEARS ago, that has nothing to do with the current market, or the current player base. Besides, much of UO's popularity stemmed from it being the first real MMO, I doubt you would get even 100k subs if they re-released it without trammel with all of the newer MMO's out now.

So you can either take off your nostalgia glasses, or go play a UO freeshard, since you seem to obsess about that game so much.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10377

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/29/13 12:17:14 PM#227


Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Komandor  

Originally posted by Hariken

Originally posted by Komandor The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.   If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.   They basically need to make a better Darkfall. Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again. EVE is a perfect game and I love it, but it's just too depressive for me. I don't like space ships, I like wood and seas and nice medieval townies like UO had. UO is the best fantasy MMO in history, because it's the most realistic one. EVE is the best sci-fi MMO in history. There are literally no other competitors.      Originally posted by ThomasN7 Yes the #1 game feature in everyone's mmo is player looting and stealing! #sarcasm! It is. It makes the game most realistic and fun. It's fun, because it produces real cortisol in your and also the rewards give more pleasure as you are actually taking away something from another person. It's much better to just "grind mobs". That can be done in single player games. It's really awful that devs are so ignorant and there are so few full pvp, player looting games around. There is Minecraft,  but only some servers. And minecraft is insanely popular. Proof that sandbox and anarchy = good.      There are PvE carebears that will take part PvP in the ONLY existing version of online SotA PvP. These PvE carebears wont accept the rules of UO felucca. These PvE carebears wont accept full loot, they want to be able to entirely block players (ignore isnt enough) that kill them more then 1 time cause they are griefers in the eyes of the carebears. PvE carebears wanted a less skill demanding PvP game so the developers gave them a card game as magic system, cards will randomly pop up on my screen which i have to choose from, i cant choose the spell i wanted to cast. So no risk vs reward in SotA, no consequences, not skillbased PvP, being able to block players out from PvP is what we will see in SotA carebear PvP.  Wow...just wow...this game is dead       

If the idea would be executed properly, they both would've been a 10/10 title [mod edit] ...and that you know because your crystal ball told you?
Because it's logic. Idea of Mortal Online - realistic, first person, skill based, full pvp, full loot RPG. It's a PERFECT setup. AAA title. Execution - bug ridden piece of manure. Result = fail. If Blizzard did this, it would be best MMO ever.      Right, because all those hardcore full loot PvP games are kicking ass and taking names..
    They are. UO is taking names and kicking ass for 10 years now (well, Trammel and AoS carebare land ruined a lot), EVE online as well. Darkfall and Mortal Online failed because of technical newbism. And Minecraft is also taking names (yes, it's a full loot pvp, because on anarchy servers you can kill players, steal their stuff, ruin their homes, etc...it doesn't get more hardcore than that)     Yeah, I find those kinds of statements very very funny. The "hardcore crowd" is probably about 1% of the gamers out there, and the fact that it is always said that if a game doesn't cater for 1% of its audience, it will flop. 
    How do you know what % it is? It's logic that this game will flop because it doesn't cater neither to hardcores, neither to carebare plebs. It's nothing really.      
WoW started off as one of the most bug ridden pieces of software ever. They dumped tons of development into the game post release because so many people showed up to play. "So many people" did not show up to play Mortal Online prior to everyone realizing the game was so poorly written.  
How you can compare a AAA company as Blizzard with one of the smallest indy companies Star Vault is beyond me.

Dont you see the difference?

Just about all oldschool UO players that pledged cause they were looking forward to the next UO will not show up on release day when they finally realize that Shroud of the Avatar is just another carebear game. A game where developers do all they can to please the carebear crowd. Even PvP is developed to please the less skilled PvE player.

This game is probably the game i as a hardcore PvP gamer feel most disapointed in, ever. It could have to do with the fact that Richard Garriott is behind it, i never thought he could sell out as he did. What could have been the next UO game is turning out to be just another carebear trammel game.

And these oldschool UO gamers is not 1% of the playerbase, the guy that claimed that have no clue whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that the hardcore PvP players instead for SotA will play Star Citizen, a game with non-consensual PvP and full loot. We that have developed our gameplay dont like the trammel gameplay, we want risk vs reward and consequences. So SC having 10 times more pledgers tell me that the PvP crowd is almost as big if not bigger in Star Citizen. 

If you read up on Star Citizen in threads that have with non-consensual PvP and full loot you will see that a large majority in these threads prefer that and not consensual PvP? with no risk vs reward and consequences.

SotA could have been so much bigger if developers had allowed non-consensual PvP and full loot. Risk vs reward and consequences. But instead they chickened out and took the trammel road. 

Just my guild would have delivered +50 pledgers but now it seem all they get from us is my misplaced pledge i will never use. I and my guildfriends will play Star Citizen instead.

SotA is not the next UO, it is a fullblown carebear game.

 




Wow was not a core product for Blizzard. It was, as the people who were there at launch can attest, a bug ridden, cr@ppy game, that had ideas that resonated with a lot of people. People showed up anyway. By the thousands they showed up. Mortal Online's ideas did not seem to resonate with very many people.

But let's take your argument at face value. If true, it means that the PvP aspects of a game are unimportant relative to the status and game writing skills of the developer. If true, that means SotA doesn't need player killing, looting or theft. It only needs to be well written by a AAA developer.

Also, at the scale that MMORPG development occurs, fifty people do not matter. Fifty people might matter to a game like MO, but not for a game the size that SotA is going to end up.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Aragon100

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2198

10/29/13 12:19:01 PM#228
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by Alber_gamer This game can only succeed if it doesn't have full looting and player stealing as proven by every previous game that had a similar approach to PvP, time after time.
Oldschool Ultima Online, before Age of Shadows ruined it, had full loot/stealing and felucca was doing just fine even after trammel were introduced. This is something many dont understand. During UO Renaissance (after trammel) i had my best time playing UO in felucca. The place was crowded.

 

So claiming game with full looting and stealing dont work just isnt right. I was there and saw it worked just fine.

If Richard Garriott had went for creating a new UO game with full loot and stealing non-consensual then he would have had alot more followers. That would have been going back to his online roots and a truly unique game compared to just another themepark game as SotA.

 




You may have had your best time in the game, but most of the player population did not. Trammel was introduced as a direct response to player complaints. There had to be many of them for the developer to listen. There also had to be additional evidence that not having the option to avoid those mechanics was having a negative impact on the game. Some of Richard Garriott's own personal experience influenced the decision as well. Joystiq/Massively Interview With Richard Garriott

Player killing, looting and theft are interesting ideas, the problem is that they never work out that well when you give players the freedom to use those mechanics. It's only fun for a few people. That's why MMORPG and MMORPG-like games are moving away from those mechanics, or at least offering players the choice.

If SotA was a PK game with looting and stealing, it would certainly have the support of those players, but it would have far less support than it currently has because those mechanics are among the least popular options.

 

I played the game both before and after trammel and players that didnt shouldnt have an opinion at all. Were you in felucca before and after trammel?

Most players that enjoyed felucca before trammel stayed in felucca cause the game was even better after Renaissance was introduced, why leave a game that became better? There were loads of new players entering felucca after trammel.

Funniest part with this discussion is that players that never played old UO have such a hard opinion on something they dont have a clue about. If oldschool UO was a failure cause it had full loot and stealing then they know their way of playing is the right way, LOL.

SotA with a message that this will be oldschool UO2 would have way more followers then the today SotA.

 

 

  Aragon100

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2198

10/29/13 12:22:30 PM#229
Originally posted by demonic87

I'm sorry but "UO did great!" means absolutely nothing. Cool, a dated game with dated ideas did great YEARS ago, that has nothing to do with the current market, or the current player base. Besides, much of UO's popularity stemmed from it being the first real MMO, I doubt you would get even 100k subs if they re-released it without trammel with all of the newer MMO's out now.

So you can either take off your nostalgia glasses, or go play a UO freeshard, since you seem to obsess about that game so much.

UO did good cause it was a good game. Why do you think so many continued to play on freeshards after original UO died february 2003? Some of the bigger freeshards had +150000 followers. That is more then the original game.

A new UO with better graphics would easily be more popular then SotA that is just another themepark game, not that original i would say.

 

  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1976

10/29/13 12:29:16 PM#230
Originally posted by Komandor

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

It could flop, but you dont know that. It could flop for any number of reasons, or not. It could be a lot more popular with less hardcore features too. You dont know that, neither do I. One thing I do know, currently there's not one "hardcore" mmorpg that is popular.

 

EVE is the closest thing to a "hardcore" mmorpg, but it has vast PvE friendly areas where you are relatively in very safe place.

  Aragon100

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2198

10/29/13 12:29:42 PM#231
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Komandor  

Originally posted by Hariken

Originally posted by Komandor The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.   If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.   They basically need to make a better Darkfall. Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again. EVE is a perfect game and I love it, but it's just too depressive for me. I don't like space ships, I like wood and seas and nice medieval townies like UO had. UO is the best fantasy MMO in history, because it's the most realistic one. EVE is the best sci-fi MMO in history. There are literally no other competitors.      Originally posted by ThomasN7 Yes the #1 game feature in everyone's mmo is player looting and stealing! #sarcasm! It is. It makes the game most realistic and fun. It's fun, because it produces real cortisol in your and also the rewards give more pleasure as you are actually taking away something from another person. It's much better to just "grind mobs". That can be done in single player games. It's really awful that devs are so ignorant and there are so few full pvp, player looting games around. There is Minecraft,  but only some servers. And minecraft is insanely popular. Proof that sandbox and anarchy = good.      There are PvE carebears that will take part PvP in the ONLY existing version of online SotA PvP. These PvE carebears wont accept the rules of UO felucca. These PvE carebears wont accept full loot, they want to be able to entirely block players (ignore isnt enough) that kill them more then 1 time cause they are griefers in the eyes of the carebears. PvE carebears wanted a less skill demanding PvP game so the developers gave them a card game as magic system, cards will randomly pop up on my screen which i have to choose from, i cant choose the spell i wanted to cast. So no risk vs reward in SotA, no consequences, not skillbased PvP, being able to block players out from PvP is what we will see in SotA carebear PvP.  Wow...just wow...this game is dead       

If the idea would be executed properly, they both would've been a 10/10 title [mod edit] ...and that you know because your crystal ball told you?
Because it's logic. Idea of Mortal Online - realistic, first person, skill based, full pvp, full loot RPG. It's a PERFECT setup. AAA title. Execution - bug ridden piece of manure. Result = fail. If Blizzard did this, it would be best MMO ever.      Right, because all those hardcore full loot PvP games are kicking ass and taking names..
    They are. UO is taking names and kicking ass for 10 years now (well, Trammel and AoS carebare land ruined a lot), EVE online as well. Darkfall and Mortal Online failed because of technical newbism. And Minecraft is also taking names (yes, it's a full loot pvp, because on anarchy servers you can kill players, steal their stuff, ruin their homes, etc...it doesn't get more hardcore than that)     Yeah, I find those kinds of statements very very funny. The "hardcore crowd" is probably about 1% of the gamers out there, and the fact that it is always said that if a game doesn't cater for 1% of its audience, it will flop. 
    How do you know what % it is? It's logic that this game will flop because it doesn't cater neither to hardcores, neither to carebare plebs. It's nothing really.      
WoW started off as one of the most bug ridden pieces of software ever. They dumped tons of development into the game post release because so many people showed up to play. "So many people" did not show up to play Mortal Online prior to everyone realizing the game was so poorly written.  
How you can compare a AAA company as Blizzard with one of the smallest indy companies Star Vault is beyond me.

 

Dont you see the difference?

Just about all oldschool UO players that pledged cause they were looking forward to the next UO will not show up on release day when they finally realize that Shroud of the Avatar is just another carebear game. A game where developers do all they can to please the carebear crowd. Even PvP is developed to please the less skilled PvE player.

This game is probably the game i as a hardcore PvP gamer feel most disapointed in, ever. It could have to do with the fact that Richard Garriott is behind it, i never thought he could sell out as he did. What could have been the next UO game is turning out to be just another carebear trammel game.

And these oldschool UO gamers is not 1% of the playerbase, the guy that claimed that have no clue whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that the hardcore PvP players instead for SotA will play Star Citizen, a game with non-consensual PvP and full loot. We that have developed our gameplay dont like the trammel gameplay, we want risk vs reward and consequences. So SC having 10 times more pledgers tell me that the PvP crowd is almost as big if not bigger in Star Citizen. 

If you read up on Star Citizen in threads that have with non-consensual PvP and full loot you will see that a large majority in these threads prefer that and not consensual PvP? with no risk vs reward and consequences.

SotA could have been so much bigger if developers had allowed non-consensual PvP and full loot. Risk vs reward and consequences. But instead they chickened out and took the trammel road. 

Just my guild would have delivered +50 pledgers but now it seem all they get from us is my misplaced pledge i will never use. I and my guildfriends will play Star Citizen instead.

SotA is not the next UO, it is a fullblown carebear game.

 




Wow was not a core product for Blizzard. It was, as the people who were there at launch can attest, a bug ridden, cr@ppy game, that had ideas that resonated with a lot of people. People showed up anyway. By the thousands they showed up. Mortal Online's ideas did not seem to resonate with very many people.

But let's take your argument at face value. If true, it means that the PvP aspects of a game are unimportant relative to the status and game writing skills of the developer. If true, that means SotA doesn't need player killing, looting or theft. It only needs to be well written by a AAA developer.

Also, at the scale that MMORPG development occurs, fifty people do not matter. Fifty people might matter to a game like MO, but not for a game the size that SotA is going to end up.

 

And how fast did they solve these bugs? What kind of rescources did Blizzard have compared to Star Vault, LOL.

AAA companies make themepark games not games like old UO so we cant really say what numbers a new UO would get.

I havent seen a AAA game created by a AAA developers since UO so any expectations of subscribers is very much assumptions. I know the demand for such a game is very high and it would easily have more then the +25000 we see follow SotA today.

  Aragon100

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2198

10/29/13 12:48:45 PM#232
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Komandor

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

It could flop, but you dont know that. It could flop for any number of reasons, or not. It could be a lot more popular with less hardcore features too. You dont know that, neither do I. One thing I do know, currently there's not one "hardcore" mmorpg that is popular.

 

EVE is the closest thing to a "hardcore" mmorpg, but it has vast PvE friendly areas where you are relatively in very safe place.

How many AAA companies have made a "hardcore" mmorpg? Economical and financial backup is essential if you want the high numbers of subscribers.

  Encephalitis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/13
Posts: 59

10/29/13 1:12:43 PM#233
Originally posted by Aragon100
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Komandor

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

It could flop, but you dont know that. It could flop for any number of reasons, or not. It could be a lot more popular with less hardcore features too. You dont know that, neither do I. One thing I do know, currently there's not one "hardcore" mmorpg that is popular.

 

EVE is the closest thing to a "hardcore" mmorpg, but it has vast PvE friendly areas where you are relatively in very safe place.

How many AAA companies have made a "hardcore" mmorpg? Economical and financial backup is essential if you want the high numbers of subscribers.

AAA companies will take pve>pvp any day, because pvp doesn't make money (as much money, that is). i'd be willing to bet that for every 1 "pvp player", there are dozens of others that would rather adventure in a pve world.

that said, full loot pvp just means "i get to piss all over a newbs play time because im bored" because really, how many people are going to 1v1 a person of equal skill with all of their gear on the line. i've played my fair share of pvp-centric games, and it always ends up the same.

the only significant difference between a pvp and a pve-centric game, is that in a pve game, you kill monsters. in pvp, you kill your player base. now, which one is more inclined to leave first.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5511

10/29/13 3:08:35 PM#234

I didn't play UO, but I did play Lineage 1 for a few years which is about as hardcore as it gets without permadeath.

I don't want to play another full loot game. Even though that game was great as I'm sure UO was/is, I don't want to spend my time in that environment. It doesn't matter if you were there or not. That doesn't invalidate what people find fun.

This game may fail with the full loot pvp crowd, but it will succeed with the pve crowd and the pvp crowd that doesn't need full loot to find combat and competition satisfying.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Ice-Queen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2430

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

10/29/13 3:17:16 PM#235
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by InsaneDalek
Yes, because as everyone knows when UO added Trammel it was such a huge fai- OH WAIT.

It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history.

The game is still profiting with a subscription and after Trammel was added.

Heck, I've never lost my subscription to UO. I still play it after all these years. Trammel didn't kill anything. Once there was Trammel, you could flip to Felucca side and see how empty it was, there were only a handful, and still are only a handful of people on Felucca side. Trammel was always bustling with people. There's no where near the people playing UO as there once was, it's an old game, but Trammel did not kill UO, you're wrong there.

On subject though. Times have changed as well as Mmo's. People Do Not want to lose their hard earned gold/items in a game. That's why you don't see games like Darkfall being very successful. It's a niche audience that will play those games these days.

Do I miss the old Fel days UO had, yes I do, but even when I played old UO, I hardly ever looted anyone stuff. I was happy just defeating them. If I looted, I looted my stuff if that person had beaten me, then got my stuff back and left theirs. It was never about looting other people's stuff for me.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/29/13 3:19:41 PM#236
Originally posted by The1ceQueen
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by InsaneDalek
Yes, because as everyone knows when UO added Trammel it was such a huge fai- OH WAIT.

It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history.

The game is still profiting with a subscription and after Trammel was added.

Heck, I've never lost my subscription to UO. I still play it after all these years. Trammel didn't kill anything. Once there was Trammel, you could flip to Felucca side and see how empty it was, there were only a handful, and still are only a handful of people on Felucca side. Trammel was always bustling with people. There's no where near the people playing UO as there once was, it's an old game, but Trammel did not kill UO, you're wrong there.

Implementing Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.

  Ice-Queen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2430

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

10/29/13 3:22:39 PM#237
Originally posted by Holophonist

Implemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.

That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/29/13 3:24:54 PM#238
Originally posted by The1ceQueen
Originally posted by Holophonist

Implemented Trammel boosted subs for about a year. After that the game entered a 6 - 7 year downward spiral that was only temporarily halted after they released AOS, which they probably did because they were bleeding subs after Trammel.

That always happens when a game starts to age, newer Mmo's come out, take subscribers, people move on to the next best thing. Just the way it is.

No... that's how modern MMOs work because modern MMOs are designed around catering to newer players and giving in to every whim imaginable. That's why Trammel failed and that's why modern themepark MMOs fail. EVE has been steadily growing for years.

  Golelorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1055

10/29/13 3:44:20 PM#239
Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by Komandor

The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

They basically need to make a better Darkfall.

Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.

There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.

 

Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/29/13 4:00:45 PM#240
Originally posted by Golelorn
Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by Komandor

The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

They basically need to make a better Darkfall.

Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.

There have been games that the "hardcore pvp" crowd claims to want. They crash and burn almost instantly. Also, there have been pvp servers in games that always turn into ghost towns. Hell, even DAoC's pvp servers turned into a laughingstock of idiots camping trainers to kill newly rolled level 20s. Yup, that's pretty damn hardcore.

 

Its very hard to take these guys seriously. To me it just seems like they want to rape newly rolled, or lesser geared toons. There are a lot of games out there with competitive pvp. There aren't too many that let you roam around knocking off lowbies. When I see this kind of thread all I see is "Please turn this game into a mindless gankfest."

It's hard for you to take us seriously because you don't know what you're talking about. "pvp servers" are a joke. If you can easily turn on/off pvp, then the game wasn't made with pvp in mind. It's tacked on. That's not what "we" want.

 

Also, please stop generalizing about people who want ow pvp saying we want to "rape new players." There are a lot of us who want that kind of game because it makes it feel more meaningful. I'm one of the most adamant ow pvp advocates and I never pk innocent players.

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