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Shroud of the Avatar Forum » General Discussion » If it doesn't have player looting and stealing, the game will fail.

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295 posts found
  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1906

9/24/13 7:59:34 AM#101
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by olepi
Originally posted by Fly666monkey
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by InsaneDalek
Yes, because as everyone knows when UO added Trammel it was such a huge fai- OH WAIT.

It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG!

UO's sub base peaked at 250,00 subs in July 2003... 3 years after Trammel came out. Get your facts straight.

250,000 subs would be considered barely ok today, a niche game. Probably no other full loot game has even that many subs.

Any developer making a full loot game has to realize that the player base is small for that kind of game.

How can you say that player base for Alpha Hardcore game is low, when nobody has tried it. Darkfall failed, because of lousy execution. Mortal Online failed due to programming faults and lag. If the idea would be executed properly, they both would've been a 10/10 title [mod edit]

Always some other excuse for why so many PvP MMOs fail, but never due to PvP itself.  Grow up.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

9/24/13 8:03:36 AM#102
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Komandor

The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

They basically need to make a better Darkfall.

Do you realize that Ultima Online was losing subscribers before the introduction of Trammel?

It was Trammel that saved the game and made it even more of a success.

 

Ultima Online didn't peak until 2 YEARS AFTER TRAMMEL. The population almost doubled because of Trammel.

 

I know it is because of Trammel, because the game was losing a ton of subscribers due to the griefing. I remember reading about the dev's decisions to introduce Trammel, how the majority of players loved it, and the dev talking about how it stopped the dramatic loss of subs and reversed it to a very large gain in subscribers.

 

 

There is a difference between, "If this game doesn't have FFA PvP, it will fail and go bankrupt." and "If this game doesn't have FFA PvP, I personally will not like it."

The latter is true, but the former is the opposite of true.

UO did not do better after introduction of Trammel. Trammel killed UO. Carebears don't count anyway.

Do you like to put fingers into your ears, close your eyes and go "LALALALALALAL CAN'T HEAR YOU!" in the real life, too?

 

  Darkholme

Tipster

Joined: 3/02/04
Posts: 1227

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer..."

9/24/13 1:50:32 PM#103
Originally posted by lizardbones


So posts like this one, from 2002 were insane ravings?

How to bring back Felucca?




From Game-Master.Net
Here is my question for you:

 

Trammel is full, Felucca is empty…
How do we bring balance to the two facets while at the same time keeping the Trammies happy?
(happy trammies == happy OSI).


Just because Felucca was emptying doesn't mean the game was dying... it just means exactly what I said. People didn't enjoy being ganked and griefed constantly so they migrated to Trammel when Renaissance launched and never went back in the same numbers. That does not correlate with the game losing subscribers however, and in fact if you look at the numbers, the opposite happened. No amount of attempts at revisionist gaming history is ever going to change that.

-------------------------
"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10505

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/24/13 2:00:50 PM#104


Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by lizardbones So posts like this one, from 2002 were insane ravings? How to bring back Felucca?

From Game-Master.Net Here is my question for you:   Trammel is full, Felucca is empty… How do we bring balance to the two facets while at the same time keeping the Trammies happy? (happy trammies == happy OSI).

Just because Felucca was emptying doesn't mean the game was dying... it just means exactly what I said. People didn't enjoy being ganked and griefed constantly so they migrated to Trammel when Renaissance launched and never went back in the same numbers. That does not correlate with the game losing subscribers however, and in fact if you look at the numbers, the opposite happened. No amount of attempts at revisionist gaming history is ever going to change that.



Are you responding to me? I was showing historical evidence that Felucca emptied out as soon as the players had someplace else to go. As you said, this was because they were tired of the PvP. There's also historical evidence that UO pulled in another 100k players or so after the release of Trammel so Trammel didn't "kill UO". Trammel just killed Felucca. Which is kind of ironic.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Hariken

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/13
Posts: 458

9/24/13 2:06:06 PM#105
Originally posted by Komandor

The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

They basically need to make a better Darkfall.

Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2509

9/24/13 2:14:28 PM#106
Originally posted by Darth-Batman
Because Darkfall is a shining example of a success story? All those open-world-pvp-full-loot games have something in common, they all struggle.

Note he said "A better Darkfall". But yes, Darkfall is a pretty great success story. As is Eve.

 

People seem to have this delusion that Darkfall is doing poorly.

 

A group of 12 devs on a 1 million dollar budget released an MMO that is technologically superior to many on the market, handling real time combat in a non zoned non instanced world with hundreds of players.

Fast forward 3 years later and the team has grown to 30 devs, moved into a larger office building, opened a second server, released its third expansion.

Fast forward to present day, team is up to 60 full time devs, move to yet a bigger office, released a sequel/massive overhaul to the game, have boxes in stores, about to release to a whole new sector of the globe. And its still a sub based game.

Darkfall isn't a success story? Compared to what? Compared to games like SWTOR where the dev team gets cut by 4/5 after launch, where company stocks drop, where the founders ditch the company, where the game is forced to go FTP? Compared to Rift, the most successful modern themepark (WoW clone) where it has merged servers and fired devs over the last two years?

 

Compare it all to Eve, a game STILL GROWING in population over 11 years later, now the most subscribed to MMO outside of WoW.

 

Well designed niche games are the success stories of the MMO genre, they always have been. The only outlier has been WoW.

 

 

 

Now, on topic, this game isn't even really an MMO. The world can be played singleplayer, the entire thing is instanced more or less. It's certainly no UO.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15487

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

9/24/13 2:26:01 PM#107
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by olepi
Originally posted by Fly666monkey
Originally posted by Komandor
Originally posted by InsaneDalek
Yes, because as everyone knows when UO added Trammel it was such a huge fai- OH WAIT.

It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG!

UO's sub base peaked at 250,00 subs in July 2003... 3 years after Trammel came out. Get your facts straight.

250,000 subs would be considered barely ok today, a niche game. Probably no other full loot game has even that many subs.

Any developer making a full loot game has to realize that the player base is small for that kind of game.

How can you say that player base for Alpha Hardcore game is low, when nobody has tried it. Darkfall failed, because of lousy execution. Mortal Online failed due to programming faults and lag. If the idea would be executed properly, they both would've been a 10/10 title [mod edit]

Always some other excuse for why so many PvP MMOs fail, but never due to PvP itself.  Grow up.

What was immature about what he said?  He is right. Darkfall was poorly executed with an untrustworthy studio behind it. Mortal OL fared far worse. EVE does pretty well considering how niche the entire game is. Open PVP, harsh penalties, as well as a space sim wrapping. All of those things are severely niche in and of themselves. Yet good game design and execution have gone a long way to building a lasting community.

PVP has quite a following, what it lacks is one major game that fits it's core desires per capita. What I mean by that is, one game that speaks to the multiple types of PVP oriented players and guilds out there. There are many of these for the PVE oriented player.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Swedish_Chef

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/13
Posts: 225

Bort bort bort!

9/24/13 2:32:25 PM#108
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Darth-Batman
Because Darkfall is a shining example of a success story? All those open-world-pvp-full-loot games have something in common, they all struggle.

Note he said "A better Darkfall". But yes, Darkfall is a pretty great success story. As is Eve.

 

People seem to have this delusion that Darkfall is doing poorly.

 

A group of 12 devs on a 1 million dollar budget released an MMO that is technologically superior to many on the market, handling real time combat in a non zoned non instanced world with hundreds of players.

Fast forward 3 years later and the team has grown to 30 devs, moved into a larger office building, opened a second server, released its third expansion.

Fast forward to present day, team is up to 60 full time devs, move to yet a bigger office, released a sequel/massive overhaul to the game, have boxes in stores, about to release to a whole new sector of the globe. And its still a sub based game.

Darkfall isn't a success story? Compared to what? Compared to games like SWTOR where the dev team gets cut by 4/5 after launch, where company stocks drop, where the founders ditch the company, where the game is forced to go FTP? Compared to Rift, the most successful modern themepark (WoW clone) where it has merged servers and fired devs over the last two years?

If you're going to judge every game on its own scale of 'success', then Rift, LOTRO, DDO, SWTOR, and many others have seen FAR greater success than Darkfall, even after their initial populations shrank.

 

Compare it all to Eve, a game STILL GROWING in population over 11 years later, now the most subscribed to MMO outside of WoW.

 *picks up the phone*

Oh, sorry. I'm calling bullshit on the second half of that sentence.

This claim is absolutely ridiculous & has no basis in fact, even before you take into account that a good chunk of EVE's accounts are in fact alt accounts, since until recently only one character per account could be trained. To say nothing of the mining bots (which have greatly diminished, admittedly).

I like the game myself, but pulling bogus 'facts' out of your ass to support it ultimately does nothing but cause it harm.

 

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2509

9/24/13 2:58:06 PM#109
Originally posted by Swedish_Chef
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Darth-Batman
Because Darkfall is a shining example of a success story? All those open-world-pvp-full-loot games have something in common, they all struggle.

Note he said "A better Darkfall". But yes, Darkfall is a pretty great success story. As is Eve.

 

People seem to have this delusion that Darkfall is doing poorly.

 

A group of 12 devs on a 1 million dollar budget released an MMO that is technologically superior to many on the market, handling real time combat in a non zoned non instanced world with hundreds of players.

Fast forward 3 years later and the team has grown to 30 devs, moved into a larger office building, opened a second server, released its third expansion.

Fast forward to present day, team is up to 60 full time devs, move to yet a bigger office, released a sequel/massive overhaul to the game, have boxes in stores, about to release to a whole new sector of the globe. And its still a sub based game.

Darkfall isn't a success story? Compared to what? Compared to games like SWTOR where the dev team gets cut by 4/5 after launch, where company stocks drop, where the founders ditch the company, where the game is forced to go FTP? Compared to Rift, the most successful modern themepark (WoW clone) where it has merged servers and fired devs over the last two years?

If you're going to judge every game on its own scale of 'success', then Rift, LOTRO, DDO, SWTOR, and many others have seen FAR greater success than Darkfall, even after their initial populations shrank.

All MMOs are judged on scale. If we use the individual scale, Rift, LotRO, DDO, and SWTOR were not runnaway successes. Actually, games like DDO and SWTOR are unmitigated disasters. No one even bothers to argue that SWTOR is in any way successful.

 

Compare it all to Eve, a game STILL GROWING in population over 11 years later, now the most subscribed to MMO outside of WoW.

 *picks up the phone*

Oh, sorry. I'm calling bullshit on the second half of that sentence.

This claim is absolutely ridiculous & has no basis in fact

Except, you know, the official subscription numbers released by CCP. Unlike most companies, they don't hide those numbers. And after they went by 500k subs, they have passed every sub based MMO except for WoW.

 

Oh, you again. Gotta correct you twice then.

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 707

9/24/13 3:09:36 PM#110
I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
  darker70

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/08
Posts: 820

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

9/24/13 3:14:27 PM#111
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by flizzer
You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server.   If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.  

+1

+1 to Infinity 
 

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2509

9/24/13 3:34:12 PM#112
Originally posted by darker70
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by flizzer
You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server.   If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.  

+1

+1 to Infinity 
 

How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.

  Aragon100

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2203

9/24/13 5:26:02 PM#113
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by Darkholme Originally posted by Komandor - "It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history." This is a patently false statement. The subscriber-ship of Ultima Online skyrocketed with the release of Renaissance, and it kept on growing up until the release of Age of Shadows well and truly killed off Ultima Online, completing the WOW-ification of the game. That is when the game started to decline in subscriber population that continues to this day. I was just thinking about this whole debate the other day and how people that were actually there remember how it really went down. Yes the game might have been ruined for those that love to gank and grief, but the reality is that you are NOT the majority of Ultima fans, or MMORPG fans and a game with FFA PVP, stealing and corpse looting will NEVER find mainstream success... ever. Is there a niche for it? Certainly, and there are games that fill it. Full disclosure, I actually was a thief on Atlantic server back in the day and did faction PvP, and enjoyed both immensely, and I maintained a character on Siege Perilous when it was opened. I do enjoy the playstyle (aside from ganking and griefing). 
Agree to the fullest.

 

Age of Shadows that WoW-ified UO was the final nail for so many players. That was what killed UO felucca and made about half the subscribers leave the game.

Felucca was very populated all the way up to february 2003 when UO went WoW. Some claim that trammel killed felucca but that is very far from the truth. I was there and saw felucca players leave in hordes after Age of Shadows was introduced.

 




So posts like this one, from 2002 were insane ravings?

How to bring back Felucca?




From Game-Master.Net
Here is my question for you:

 

Trammel is full, Felucca is empty…
How do we bring balance to the two facets while at the same time keeping the Trammies happy?
(happy trammies == happy OSI).




 

Yes definetly. 

Felucca Europe had just as many PvP players as before trammel, and the game was way better. Balanced PvP is something PvP players like and Renaissance had just that.

  Aragon100

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2203

9/24/13 5:32:09 PM#114
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by lizardbones So posts like this one, from 2002 were insane ravings? How to bring back Felucca?

From Game-Master.Net Here is my question for you:   Trammel is full, Felucca is empty… How do we bring balance to the two facets while at the same time keeping the Trammies happy? (happy trammies == happy OSI).

Just because Felucca was emptying doesn't mean the game was dying... it just means exactly what I said. People didn't enjoy being ganked and griefed constantly so they migrated to Trammel when Renaissance launched and never went back in the same numbers. That does not correlate with the game losing subscribers however, and in fact if you look at the numbers, the opposite happened. No amount of attempts at revisionist gaming history is ever going to change that.


Are you responding to me? I was showing historical evidence that Felucca emptied out as soon as the players had someplace else to go. As you said, this was because they were tired of the PvP. There's also historical evidence that UO pulled in another 100k players or so after the release of Trammel so Trammel didn't "kill UO". Trammel just killed Felucca. Which is kind of ironic.

 

Evidence LOL. Did you even play UO during Renaissance?

I played from UO beta and i played Europe through Renaissance and it had just as much PvP players as before trammel, difference was that it had balanced quality PvP.

Trammel didnt kill felucca, Age of Shadows killed felucca. Any little text you find on the net dont counter my UO experience.

 

 

  Aragon100

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2203

9/24/13 5:34:49 PM#115
Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by Komandor

The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.

 

If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.

 

They basically need to make a better Darkfall.

Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.

Have you ever played Eve PvP? It's more then worthless. Just cause a game have PvP dont mean it automatically draw all PvP players to that game.

Some of us have demands on the PvP quality.

 

  Aragon100

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2203

9/24/13 5:40:23 PM#116
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.

I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.

Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.

I was there and saw myself what happened.

Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.

 

 

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1008

9/24/13 5:46:54 PM#117
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by darker70
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by flizzer
You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server.   If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.  

+1

+1 to Infinity 
 

How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.

Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.

 

There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.

 

Let them be. Freedom of choice.

  Aragon100

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2203

9/24/13 5:48:12 PM#118
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by darker70
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by flizzer
You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server.   If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.  

+1

+1 to Infinity 
 

How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.

It's already to late for SotA. Read up on the game and you can see how the PvE players are doing their best to get a lame version of PvP to suit their carebear playstyle.

No risk vs reward and no consequences is the PvE crowds melody. Slow unskilled PvP so the not so expereinced ones have a chance is also popular. Luck should be a big factor.

SotA is like all potentially good PvP games, the PvE crowd destroy it with their demands. They want PvP to fit their playstyle.

 

  Aragon100

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 2203

9/24/13 5:50:37 PM#119
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by darker70
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by flizzer
You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server.   If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.  

+1

+1 to Infinity 
 

How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.

Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.

 

There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.

 

Let them be. Freedom of choice.

What wrong with your reasoning is that the PvE crowd want SotA PvP to fit them and not the PvP crowd. So PvP players will leave andseek a game that isnt infected by PvE players demands.

They have their open PvE and still they want to destroy what the PvP crowd was hoping for.

  quseio

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/07
Posts: 222

9/24/13 6:03:36 PM#120
ah i was wondering where the eqn ffa pvp crowd went now i see...
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