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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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189 posts found
  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/15/13 10:02:50 PM#61
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest.

This scares the *&^% outta me... no stealthers (possibly) :-(

  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/15/13 10:08:26 PM#62
Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by time007

Honestly, if you like to run around alone unstealthed, why not just team up with a friend or two that compliment your style, that way you won't get attacked out there all by your lonesome.

 

'If you like soloing, why don't you just group?'  Wait wut

 

If you put stealth on a timer, you are just catering to a sliver of the nonstealthing community, which is the population of casual gamers who want to be able to run around a game alone down highly trafficked roads and just survive everything without groupin

Uhh, seems to me that's what the stealther community wants.  Lol.

I would prefer GW2 stealth. I like being able to run around faster out of stealth and then go in and out of it in battle. I like both options though.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3739

RIP City of Heroes!

2/15/13 10:14:04 PM#63
Originally posted by lightingbird
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

 I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage.  You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides.  reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth. 

If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool.  I don't think it works for either side of the issue. 

 

  time007

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/15/13 10:16:29 PM#64

Hi Mark,

 

I know you are a busy guy and probably swamped working 10+ hours a day, so thanks for letting us know you appreciate our feedback.

 

Career stealthers are a small minority, and most of us are not vocal at all.  Thats why I wanted to go indepth to give some insight into what we are thinking.  Most are lone wolves, though others participate in duos etc.  I think in the video or blog you talk about defined roles.  Just based off that, I think stealthers' defined role, is that of a shadow/invisible/ghost type guy, and not a "cloaked for a bit combat/skirmisher" that we've seen in the past 5 years. 

 

I think most career stealthers lean towards that invisible hunter/stalker side of the spectrum, and people who casually/alt play as stealthers want the combat/skirmisher who has "combat stealth" as opposed to the "untimed" stealth we want.

 

I suppose over the years of DAOC, stealthers got increasingly stronger by having things like more spec points, left axe, stronger dots, etc, which kind of mainstreamed our class.  I think just keeping our class as a niche type of invisible stalker class is more suitable, as opposed to allowing us to be "cloaked mercs".  The niche path is more suitable for the full-time career stealthers who will only roll stealthers.

 

So I'm not saying gimp us completely fighting wise but give us non timed stealth and make it harder for your average joe to roll a stealther and be an invisible killing machine.  I.E. less spec points so you have to commit to stealth & thrust, instead of more spec points that allow you to cap stealth, thrust, and poisons. (or in order to get to non timed stealth, you can't get poison)

 

I also am realistic in that, if you make stealthers able to fight better and survive in large melee's unstealthed, this will make the class more marketable to a larger % of the player base for alts etc. (though this will lead to more "my stealther is squishy in all-out melees please boost XYZ")  So I hope you can give the option for our small minority to be able to sacrifice our spec points for defense, melee, poison, range, what have you (though not complete immobility, we still need to get in place) in order to get non-timed stealth.  So just make it like a trade off I suppose hehe.

 

Thank you.

 

Best regards,

 

Timetrapper.

  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/15/13 10:18:02 PM#65
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by lightingbird
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

 I bet you think the stealth guy should do double damage.  You are proving the point that stealthers want to pawn without reasonable downsides.  reducing damage is a great way to lower the power of stealth. 

If you think stealth is interesting and adds challenge to YOUR game play, well that is cool.  I don't think it works for either side of the issue. 

 

You know stealthers wear leather right? You know they are pretty squishy right?

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/15/13 10:21:41 PM#66
Originally posted by cd3925
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest.

This scares the *&^% outta me... no stealthers (possibly) :-(

That's the point of doing what we are doing now and will continue to do in terms of talking to players, getting feedback, talking at the studio. Contrary to what some people believe here, I've always been willing to hear what people other than myself think about things. Yeah, sometimes I get all self-righteous (like with the gold sellers, hackers, people who lie about me/friends/game, etc.) and yes, somtimes I come off way too strong but it's always been my job to help/protect the studio(s) and our game when I believe what is being said is wrong (based on either what I know or I'm being told by my team). However, the vast majority of time I'm like Johnny Five, I want input. At the studio it's a constant back and forth about stuff. So, when I say I really want feedback, I really mean it and when I say that well, we haven't decided yet, it's because we haven't.

If we get funded, I think it is safe to say that those backers who wish to participate on the forums will have a fairly unique experience. I know some other studios and devs talk to the players after the game is launched and most MMORPGs do so during beta but we will get our backers into the forums day almost from day 1 (have to get the forums up and running, mods, etc.) and I and other devs will be there talking to them. The reason for this digression is that I expect this to be one of the most talked about topics. As I've said, we have been talking about some interesting mechanisms for implementing scout/ranger/assasin/etc. type of classes but we'll want our backers input on those ideas.

Neither you nor people who hate stealthers have anything to worry about. No decision has been made and I'm certainly willing to consider any class type that can add something to the game and do so without pissing off the vast majority of people.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/15/13 10:24:21 PM#67
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

   Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

   As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

Mark

Because someone said well you know we have this analytics data that says we can get this 8.34% players to buy the game if we have stealth and since everyone gona be siting in a scenario farming whats the harm? WAR was a scenario farming game and stealth there was not a big deal. In a 100% open RvR game it is a huge deal in fact a much bigger deal then in DAOC. So think carefully. Do you want to make everyone make an alt stealther for when they want to solo? it is a yes/no answer. If you do make stealth, if you do not then do not. People want to be able to solo make no mistake, I am sure you know it just might be a make it or break it decision.

 

I love playing stealthers, it is satisfying to just kill people when you know you are not going to die unless you are drunk out of your mind or high as a kite but I also know how broken this is in open world. I am a careful conservative player who does not like giving people free points so if I apply that to a stealther where I pick when to fight on pure points per/hour basis I tend to die maybe once in couple days. It is just broken. Information assymetry is too much. It is like the guys who used radar in DAOC but better

 

edit. think about that node gathering stuff you want for crafters, how do you think that will work? who wil be doing that and how..

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/15/13 10:29:36 PM#68
Originally posted by time007

Hi Mark,

 

I know you are a busy guy and probably swamped working 10+ hours a day, so thanks for letting us know you appreciate our feedback.

 

Career stealthers are small minority, and most of us are not vocal at all.  Thats why I wanted to go indepth to give some insight into what we are thinking.  Most are lone wolves, some participate in duos etc.  I think in the video or blog you talk about defined roles.  Just based off that, I think stealthers' defined role, is that of a shadow/invisible/ghost type guy, and not a "cloaked for a bit combat/skirmisher" that we've seen in the past 5 years. 

 

I think most career stealthers lean towards that invisible hunter/stalker side of the spectrum, and people who casually/alt play as stealthers want the combat/skirmisher who has "combat stealth" as opposed to the "untimed" stealth we want.

 

I suppose over the years of DAOC, stealthers got increasingly stronger by having things like more spec points, left axe, stronger dots, etc, which kind of mainstreamed our class.  I think just keeping our class as a niche type of invisible stalker class is suitable as opposed to allowing us to be cloaked mercs is more suitable for the full-time career stealthers who will only roll stealthers.

 

So I'm not saying gimp us completely fighting wise but give us non timed stealth and make it harder for your average joe to roll a stealther, and be an invisible killing machine.  I.E. less spec points so you have to commit to stealth & thrust, instead of more spec points that allow you to cap stealth, thrust, and poisons. (or in order to get to non timed stealth, you can't get poison)

 

I also am realistic in that, if you make stealthers able to fight better and survive in large melee's unstealthed, this will make the class more marketable to a larger % of the player base for alts etc. (though this will lead to more "my stealther is squishy in all-out melees please boost XYZ")  So I hope you can give the option for our small minority to be able to sacrifice our spec points for defense, melee, poison, range, what have you (though not complete immobility, we still need to get in place) in order to get non-timed stealth.  So just make it like a trade off I suppose hehe.

 

Thank you.

 

Best regards,

 

Timetrapper.

As per my message below, I intend to give our team and our backers (or people who post something interestin here) the time they need to make the best argument for their inclusion/exclusion. I'm a lot more patient, especially these days now that I'm independent again, past the personal stuff that wore me out during WAR and with a great bunch of guys/gals again.

It's actually 14 hours and counting today and I'll be in office this weekend as well. :) I probably should have waited another month before starting the Kickstarter campaign but we've been so jazzed about the game we figured we should get started before the spring thaw.

Thanks for the feedback/support. I know that stealthers get a bad name sometimes just as other classes do and that most of the long time stealther community does actually tend to be less vocal as you point out. That's one of the reasons why in the post below, I separated some of the basic archetypes that people use to describe stealther like characters. One blade does not fit all right? :)

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/15/13 10:32:37 PM#69
Originally posted by tlear
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

   Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

   As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

Mark

Because someone said well you know we have this analytics data that says we can get this 8.34% players to buy the game if we have stealth and since everyone gona be siting in a scenario farming whats the harm? WAR was a scenario farming game and stealth there was not a big deal. In a 100% open RvR game it is a huge deal in fact a much bigger deal then in DAOC. So think carefully. Do you want to make everyone make an alt stealther for when they want to solo? it is a yes/no answer. If you do make stealth, if you do not then do not. People want to be able to solo make no mistake, I am sure you know it just might be a make it or break it decision.

 

I love playing stealthers, it is satisfying to just kill people when you know you are not going to die unless you are drunk out of your mind or high as a kite but I also know how broken this is in open world. I am a careful conservative player who does not like giving people free points so if I apply that to a stealther where I pick when to fight on pure points per/hour basis I tend to die maybe once in couple days. It is just broken. Information assymetry is too much. It is like the guys who used radar in DAOC but better

 

edit. think about that node gathering stuff you want for crafters, how do you think that will work? who wil be doing that and how..

First paragraph = FTW, dead-on balls accurate, this, right on brother, etc., etc., etc. :) Sounds like you were in my office twice. Once back at Mythic and today, hmm.... :)

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/15/13 10:43:26 PM#70
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by tlear
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

   Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

   As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

Mark

Because someone said well you know we have this analytics data that says we can get this 8.34% players to buy the game if we have stealth and since everyone gona be siting in a scenario farming whats the harm? WAR was a scenario farming game and stealth there was not a big deal. In a 100% open RvR game it is a huge deal in fact a much bigger deal then in DAOC. So think carefully. Do you want to make everyone make an alt stealther for when they want to solo? it is a yes/no answer. If you do make stealth, if you do not then do not. People want to be able to solo make no mistake, I am sure you know it just might be a make it or break it decision.

 

I love playing stealthers, it is satisfying to just kill people when you know you are not going to die unless you are drunk out of your mind or high as a kite but I also know how broken this is in open world. I am a careful conservative player who does not like giving people free points so if I apply that to a stealther where I pick when to fight on pure points per/hour basis I tend to die maybe once in couple days. It is just broken. Information assymetry is too much. It is like the guys who used radar in DAOC but better

 

edit. think about that node gathering stuff you want for crafters, how do you think that will work? who wil be doing that and how..

First paragraph = FTW, dead-on balls accurate, this, right on brother, etc., etc., etc. :) Sounds like you were in my office twice. Once back at Mythic and today, hmm.... :)

Haha, never developed games but I been a programmer for a long time and seen it so much: "If only we can stuff this stick of dynamite up our collective ass and light it on fire.. we can totally increase out conversion rate by x" NO. Worst are developers who answer: Well you know maybe.. we could.. The "I told you so" just does not seem to be enough

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2798

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/15/13 10:43:49 PM#71
Originally posted by shohen

I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

 

Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/15/13 10:47:52 PM#72
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by shohen

I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

 

Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

Fairness and balance are indeed the key, I agree with you A.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3739

RIP City of Heroes!

2/15/13 10:49:44 PM#73
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by time007

Hi Mark,

 

I know you are a busy guy and probably swamped working 10+ hours a day, so thanks for letting us know you appreciate our feedback.

 

Career stealthers are small minority, and most of us are not vocal at all.  Thats why I wanted to go indepth to give some insight into what we are thinking.  Most are lone wolves, some participate in duos etc.  I think in the video or blog you talk about defined roles.  Just based off that, I think stealthers' defined role, is that of a shadow/invisible/ghost type guy, and not a "cloaked for a bit combat/skirmisher" that we've seen in the past 5 years. 

 

I think most career stealthers lean towards that invisible hunter/stalker side of the spectrum, and people who casually/alt play as stealthers want the combat/skirmisher who has "combat stealth" as opposed to the "untimed" stealth we want.

 

I suppose over the years of DAOC, stealthers got increasingly stronger by having things like more spec points, left axe, stronger dots, etc, which kind of mainstreamed our class.  I think just keeping our class as a niche type of invisible stalker class is suitable as opposed to allowing us to be cloaked mercs is more suitable for the full-time career stealthers who will only roll stealthers.

 

So I'm not saying gimp us completely fighting wise but give us non timed stealth and make it harder for your average joe to roll a stealther, and be an invisible killing machine.  I.E. less spec points so you have to commit to stealth & thrust, instead of more spec points that allow you to cap stealth, thrust, and poisons. (or in order to get to non timed stealth, you can't get poison)

 

I also am realistic in that, if you make stealthers able to fight better and survive in large melee's unstealthed, this will make the class more marketable to a larger % of the player base for alts etc. (though this will lead to more "my stealther is squishy in all-out melees please boost XYZ")  So I hope you can give the option for our small minority to be able to sacrifice our spec points for defense, melee, poison, range, what have you (though not complete immobility, we still need to get in place) in order to get non-timed stealth.  So just make it like a trade off I suppose hehe.

 

Thank you.

 

Best regards,

 

Timetrapper.

As per my message below, I intend to give our team and our backers (or people who post something interestin here) the time they need to make the best argument for their inclusion/exclusion. I'm a lot more patient, especially these days now that I'm independent again, past the personal stuff that wore me out during WAR and with a great bunch of guys/gals again.

It's actually 14 hours and counting today and I'll be in office this weekend as well. :) I probably should have waited another month before starting the Kickstarter campaign but we've been so jazzed about the game we figured we should get started before the spring thaw.

Thanks for the feedback/support. I know that stealthers get a bad name sometimes just as other classes do and that most of the long time stealther community does actually tend to be less vocal as you point out. That's one of the reasons why in the post below, I separated some of the basic archetypes that people use to describe stealther like characters. One blade does not fit all right? :)

 Ok, I want to see the dev designer answer.  Character A does 100DPS, character B has invisible type of steath.  What DPS Would you give to B to make B balanced to A?  Or would design B to be equal to A plus stealth?

 

  mugsie

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 5

2/15/13 10:56:10 PM#74

I never play stealth classes but I certainly would like to see them implemented. Having to deal with a sneaky bastard is fun and challenging sometimes.  The stealth war in DAoC was a whole separate game within a game and not having it would have only detracted from DAoC as a whole.

 

From an RP/sandbox point of view, a  network of stealthed scout-type classes in an rvr setting really lends to immersion and realm unity.  It is just like crafters being able to make a name for themselves.  Some people could just scout all day, every day  .. relaying info to their realm.  Players could maybe even advance in some way from relaying good intel.  I would rather get info from a reliable scout than have a big flashing arrow on a map that say FIGHT HERE.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15684

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/15/13 11:05:04 PM#75
Originally posted by azzamasin

Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

 

Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

Without the element of surprise stealth classes are worthless in most cases. Stealth is the most important tool to such a class, gimping that ability can severly gimp the class. It can also remove any sensible reason to create such a class. Personally I've never had a problem with stealth mechanics, not from a PVP perspective nor a realism one. They serve a good purpose in my opinion, mostly recon and spying. they're also good to send in, in order to pull the enemy out of a fortified location.

Anyway I feel there's little reason to create the class if the ability to stealth is gimped as suggested by Azz.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  time007

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/15/13 11:06:06 PM#76
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by shohen

I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

Like I said in my previous post.  Invisibility is crap.  If you move, there should be massive movement penalties and you should become alot more noticable...i.e. being targetable and transparent even from 30+ meters away.  You also shouldnt be allowed to restealth all willy nilly when being chased by your anti class.  Loved DAoC because on my Friar I was flat out the best class to combat stealth classes but the problem was I had no way to find them and even when I did, often times they would jsut sprint away with me following until their combat droped and they could restealth right in front of me, in the open!!!!!

 

Giving the tools to combat stealth is a first priority if you want stealth to actually be fair.  Something tells me though the OP isn't looking for fairness.

Yeah i had the same issue with hunters when I had my infil.  They had a speed boost and would kite me and sick their pets on me.  But I'm not anti-pet.  Nor am I anti-speed boost.  Neither am I anti-battle heals. 

 

Though I dont like to go into individual battle stories where XYZ skill saved that guy i was fighting, otherwise the list would be uber long and I dont want to nerf some other classes bread and butter, so why water down or nerf my bread and butter?  You got your battle heals, some guys have ignore pain, others have <ugh> vamp claw spam, stun, mez, and casters have uber AE.  The list goes on and on.  But these things don't need to be nerfed or adjusted to "today's gaming standards".  For example, Ignore pain was taken away from assassins, and even I think you had to dump a ton of points into it if you wanted a full bar of health.  You still got your full bar of IP right?  You just had to commit to it.  That's kind of the point of my post.  Give us a nontimed stealth option but make it a career/gamestyle choice and not a FoTM average joe alt option.

 

Un-timed stealth doesn't kill anyone, the player using it does.  Ok, I lied, ill go into a battle scenario.  In my prime, I took out 5 low RR stealther by myself on a bridge singlehandlely.  (they trickled at me, so it wasn't just 5 at the same time).  those guys had non timed stealth but were taken down.  There were high RR heretics that would run out to bridges and beg those FotM stealthers to attack them.  So non-timed stealth is just a tool used by us, the same way you use your battle heals and instas.  If you pop your insta at the wrong time, you'll lose right?  So guys know when to attack chain, stun, and battle heal right?  So there are tons of elements that we can look at as unfair.  I just dont remember there being a mass exodus from DAOC due to non timed stealth.  I remember exodus's of players due to TOA, vamps, buff bots, etc.  So DAOC proved, if done well, untimed stealth is viable.

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

2/15/13 11:09:10 PM#77

I would love to see a new stealth mechanic, one that I can't imagine but properly implemented would give a real camo effect without a full on lord of the rings magic invisiblity effect, and still be effective. In the real world, and even in fantastical old D&D world, you can see someone hiding if your lucky or they are bad...

a glint of light gives off a rifle scope, shadows give off a thief in an alcove... but it seems in MMOland everyone has a name plate over their head that pretty much renders even hiding behind a tree impossible.

Most MMO's seem to give homage to two old sources, MuD's whether they know it or not, and table top rule sets (where we get the fighter mage rogue cleric archetypes) but in neither of those two early examples did rogues just turn invisible, that was some whacky magic thing. In Mud's you often had a hide mechanic but everyone also had a search mechanic that meant anyone could find a rogue with enough perception and the right roll of the digital dice.

It could be interesting to see "Search" brought into a 3d mmorpg where terrain added a + or - to ones ability to hide and everyone had an ability to search out for rogues (of course that doesn't mean everyone would be using such skills all the time but honestly it is a lot harder to hide if people are looking for you in real life and in fantasy worlds I imagine)

or

Perhaps instead of invisibility you just stopped showing your name plate and had a semi harder to see form a la predator but maybe less extreme

I like the idea of stealth, and the rogue/thief/spy archetype, but the wow method is just getting old and tiersome to deal with in MMO's. Stealthers like the OP of this thread say others should have to travel in groups, maybe you should only be allowed to stealth if you gather 4 people to cast your strange invisibility mojo then YOU will have to travel in groups and it will all be good.

  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/15/13 11:32:38 PM#78
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by cd3925
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest.

This scares the *&^% outta me... no stealthers (possibly) :-(

That's the point of doing what we are doing now and will continue to do in terms of talking to players, getting feedback, talking at the studio. Contrary to what some people believe here, I've always been willing to hear what people other than myself think about things. Yeah, sometimes I get all self-righteous (like with the gold sellers, hackers, people who lie about me/friends/game, etc.) and yes, somtimes I come off way too strong but it's always been my job to help/protect the studio(s) and our game when I believe what is being said is wrong (based on either what I know or I'm being told by my team). However, the vast majority of time I'm like Johnny Five, I want input. At the studio it's a constant back and forth about stuff. So, when I say I really want feedback, I really mean it and when I say that well, we haven't decided yet, it's because we haven't.

If we get funded, I think it is safe to say that those backers who wish to participate on the forums will have a fairly unique experience. I know some other studios and devs talk to the players after the game is launched and most MMORPGs do so during beta but we will get our backers into the forums day almost from day 1 (have to get the forums up and running, mods, etc.) and I and other devs will be there talking to them. The reason for this digression is that I expect this to be one of the most talked about topics. As I've said, we have been talking about some interesting mechanisms for implementing scout/ranger/assasin/etc. type of classes but we'll want our backers input on those ideas.

Neither you nor people who hate stealthers have anything to worry about. No decision has been made and I'm certainly willing to consider any class type that can add something to the game and do so without pissing off the vast majority of people.

I am looking forward to this. I in no way would expect CU to provide a class that is OP or would ruin the game. Just to note, stealthers didnt kill DAoC.

I do agree that stealth needs to be built to work with an open world rvr game. It will be interesting to see what happens.

  aslan132

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 314

2/15/13 11:59:00 PM#79

Theres many ways stealth can be done right, and many ways it can be done wrong. Personally I dont play "stealthers" because Im a mage through and through. But my brother usually does play the scouts. Honestly the whole timed / untimed part seems much less meaningful to me than having the mechanics to counter stealth. 

 

It doesnt matter if its 5 secs or 5 minutes, if theres no counter, its OP and rediculous. I actually played EQ2 for many years, and they have alot of the right way to do things. First off, you cant limit it to a single class. Make sure theres some variety, maybe give it to all your scouts (rangers, hunters, assassins etc). You can even do invis for clothers and finger wigglers. Anyone who says its ok for stealth and not invis is pretty hypocritical. Hell you could even go The Elder Scrolls way and give it to everyone. Then it really does become about strategy, when to use it, and how. 

 

Second, untimed is fine, but unnecessary. A 10 minute timer is more than sufficient. It gives you time to hide out and wait in ambush or scout movements, but not disappear for dinner and come back unharmed. Still will be permastealth because you can just recast it, but keeps you from AFKing indefinately. 

 

Third, and most importantly, any damage should break stealth. The whole point of being sneaky is for people to not know youre there. Once youve been spotted and are under fire, you cant be sneaky anymore. Doesnt make sense that someone has you trained in thier sights and all of a sudden you just vanish before thier eyes. If they can hit you, its your fault for letting them know where you are. Also once you start attacking or dealing damage your stealth is broken, you shouldnt get more than the first hit, because once they take damage, again, they know youre there. Youre no longer being sneaky.

 

Other options, which are just that, options, are things like a see-stealth ability. A counter class like as described earlier that can force someone out of stealth, or even just lets them detect stealth alone. Same counters for invisibility for clothers if implemented. Always a check and balance system. I think EQ2 went too far and even had consumables to see stealth and invis (2 different things in EQ2). GW2 stealth atm is way too powerful in WvW, and EQ2 stealth was all but useless with all the ways to counter. A balance between the two is whats needed. 

  lightingbird

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/05/03
Posts: 106

Mostly known as Blackzorro

2/16/13 12:15:19 AM#80

I really wonder the background, experience level, and career class choices of some of the people that hate stealth.  It just boogles the mind to me.  Being a stealther as a mature player, gave me one huge benefit.

The chance to solo or small group casually with no need for a huge group.  

That was the main reason.  Thats it.  Time and I played at a huge disadvantage because we depended on each ohter, noone else, often in enemy areas.  As I played more and more, Time and I worked up a reputation.  To other alb players, people acted like we were celebrites.  Not only would we go in and lock down a area but we would affect choke points to reinforcesments trying to get to a tower, keep, or just a big battle area.  Thats pretty fun and a good tactic for the realms.  I was a scout and Time a infil.  So usually once my stleath was popped, my survival rate dropped drastically.  It was tough to play like that but I enjoyed it.  As we got better, we would make a rule of jumping 3 people, then 4, and finally 5.  Why?  Because we knew we were good.  We knew the area, setup a battle plan, and even an emergency exit.  We weren't sitting up near some spawn point area only jumping low RR casters.  Not to mention we died.  Ha we died a lot.  

There were plenty of classes that designs nearly made me cancel so many times like vamps.  A horrible, horrible idea.  To this, I have three friends that still laugh at this game because long ago they all rolled vamps, thought the game was silly easy, quit, and never came back.  So either way, I don't get the hate towards stealth.  DAOC to me has always been a near realistic medievil war game.  So back when I played hardcore, when I would see some solo caster running around in the frontiers, get ganked by one stealther, and then go to the forums to cry havoc.  I always frowned like crazy.  What were they expecting? Ha.  As stealth we have one big edge.  Suprise.  Knowing there are career players who think sneaky.  Who approaches fights with a quick kill and exit plan, why would you run around solo?  I guess a better question would be, why are you playing a game that you will not be a super caster runnning solo?

As the game is currently, I still played solo since Time quit before I did.  There were many times in which i'd cross a bridge and run right into hordes of enemy stealth.  A sea of red.  Run or fight.  Kill one or two.  I still died.  But you know what?  I'd release and go back to pick them off or go to another area.  I liked to play so I adapted and I liked the challenge.  Clearly stealth should not be how it is currently in DAOC but to say it should not be in this upcoming game is silly.  

Silly enough to say to you Marc, from someone with business experience and formal educaiton, you will lose that playerbase, who would normally flock to your next game.  So I think you should have stealth but configure it so both parties are happy to some extent.

I thnk all you have to do is a few things.

1.  Make it so a stealthed player cannot move at full speed.

2.  Make it a certain range in which any non stealther player can see you from their front.

3.  Use the same setup in DAOC as far as the timer to resteath.  

4.  Put items and/or abilities in the game so for those players that really hate enemy stealth, they have options to access to counter it.  

5. Put in rules to make it harder for people to have large groups of stealth working together to somewhat curve greifing.

6.  Reduce overall stealth based on the amount of enemies in the area.

etc.

There are many things that can be done.  The point is that you just can't make everyone happy.  I talked to someone today in my office who has only played WoW and he said he hates stealth.  Wonder why?  Only because its the only class that can kill him in PVP.  He laughed of course, but he was serious.  :) 

DAOC still has players and guess what, stealth is still in the game.  Along with many other mmo's.

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