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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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189 posts found
  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

2/15/13 1:27:17 PM#41
Originally posted by Southpaw.Gamer

DAOC was created a long time ago... we are in 2013 now.  Stealth like every other aspect of a NEW MMO should rightfully be changed according to what is possible with todays technology.  I'm not sure whhat type of combat system this new game will have... but I am hopeful that the devs will go for a FPS type combat system and not another tab-target game.  If FPS combat systems are in place "Stealth" should be the use of the terrian.  Not a skill that makes you invisible.

 

Darkfall 1.0 had the perfect stealth system.  In that game you used the terrian to hide your approach.  You ambushed people as they came by.  No artifical stealth.  

 

Make it happen.  Let it happen.  Bring the MMO community into the next generation of MMORPG games.

That first paragraph would ruin a DAoC style game. No thanks. If I wanted to attack without set target combat, I'd load up BF3.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1753

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

2/15/13 1:35:53 PM#42
Originally posted by time007
Originally posted by lightingbird
Originally posted by Alders

Stealth is one of the most broken mechanics in MMO history.  It makes it virtually impossible to balance classes and content between PVE/PVP.  What devs really need to do is get rid of this archaic mechanic and come up with something better.

I've always played a stealther.  Shit's broken and needs to go.

I wonder if this is a former wow player.

 

:)

hahah, yeah he mentions PVE.  Yeah man, stealth totally rules in PVE.  You can backstab dragons etc.  Total OP'd in fights vs. mobs.  Archaic and needs to be done away with in PVE.  I mean, can stealthers be anymore OP"d in PVE?  I once snuck up on a skeleton outside of camelot and one shotted him.

 

Neither of you can see the huge advantages of stealth in PVE?  I mean seriously?  I'm talking about oldschool MMO's, not that WoW garbage.  Avoiding non leashing mobs and stealthing to world spawns is unimaginable?  Really?

 

Stealth is a crutch.  Perma stealth is absurd with todays gamers/pvpers.  Looking at this from what worked 10 years ago is the wrong direction to take.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7768

Logic be damned!

2/15/13 1:41:32 PM#43

The moment they make stealth in MMOs actually depend on movement and terrain and lighting/shadows etc. instead of invisibility in broad daylight in the middle of an open field...

That's the moment I'll say that stealth has ANY place in MMORPGs and will also be the moment that I agree that playing a stealth capable character takes any skill what so ever.

Because all of this "every stealther has the One-Ring of Mordor" complete invisibility is just plain stupid.

Would also help if they completely remove the whole "floating names on head" thing so that ANYONE can hide in a damn bush.

But then the PvP'ers will tell you that you "can't build rivalry and enjoy epic PvP without knowing who you are killing."

YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

Killing "random enemy of opposing nation" is about x14894831234 times more realistic.

 

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Raagnarz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 260

2/15/13 3:49:48 PM#44

IMO perma insta stealth is a crutch for a weak player. They like to spout on about how they are skilled and stay with group blah blah blah. The bottom line is they are typically feeding on the sickly gazelle which are the stragglers or hunting lower levels. They rely on the fact they can get off a few shots before ever seen while the target orients himself. I've played stealthers in games before. I mean the OP pretty much admits to being bad and wanting god mode. He wants them to keep the DAOC bug where if you one shot a person while in stealth you remain stealthed. Basically he wants invis hand of god type of powers. So he is never a target and can do whatever he wants to anyone.

 

You can say its strategic, and sometimes it is, but really only when you play with a large group and actually scout for people. The funny thing is I would support perma invis with a fade timer, if and only if, there are 2 abilities present. Track and the ability for a class to pop people out of stealth. That way the stealther can be tracked and hunted. Shadowbane did it. There were several classes that stealth and there were several classes that could track. Lots of people would know when a stealther was around. Only 1 class however could do anything about it. The scout could actually remove stealth in an area effectively decloaking stealthers. They were the stealth hunter. They also did like no damage whatsoever so they could rarely kill what they revealed. They could stealth themselves but were the ultimate group support. The good stealthers with skill could evade it for a nice period of time. It would be cat and mouse. What that system proved is there were very few good stealthers. There were however a ton of bottom feeing, no skiller, lowbie ganker/stealers.

 

Give a way to track and remove stealth and I'll support perma stealth. Don't give a way to remove and track it, then you have the typical crutch for bad players.

 

 

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/15/13 4:11:28 PM#45
Originally posted by time007

Dear Mark Jacobs/CU,

 

Please keep the stealth mechanics like DAOC and not like Warhammer.

I don't want stealth on a timer if I'm an infiltrator/stealther.  Witchhunters in Warhammer had stealth for like 30 seconds and it broke if someone sneezed.  Please retain the DAOC stealth mechanics, which were perfect.  Please CU do not defer to the masses on this, as of course the majority of non stealthers will want stealth gimped to 5 seconds, timed, or some weak crap like GW2.  Not even 5 minutes or some crap like a buff.  Just leave it like DAOC please thank you.

 

Please note, replies to this thread saying, you suck if you need untimed stealth, or get some skills, hide behind a tree, or untimed stealth leads to loners who don't contrinbute crap, or untimed stealth leads to gank squads of stealthers camped at bridges can be addressed by me as they are posted on this thread.  But in general:

A.  Untimed stealth is a certain type of playstyle that worked in DAOC, but got changed over time in other games because casuals wanted to water it down (example: some players complain, hey im getting killed every time i try to cross this bridge to get to our keep that is being sieged! well i can counter, dont take the bottleneck/common route/road, and you can counter, hide behind a tree you dont need perma stealth etc, and the back and forth ensues, get some skills, no you get skills etc)

B.  Untimed stealth can lead to people being loners, but thats their playstyle and roleplaying choice.  And those guys still contriibute to the realm by taking out reinforcements running to and from keeps during raids.  and if you are going to run down a road alone toward a keep thats being sieged, well guess what you might get jumped.

C.  Gank squads of stealthers dont last long (maybe 1-2 months) cuz a group of 8 stealthers don't get jack in terms of RPS.  Those stealth gank squads are just people's alts who get bored of running pugs.

D.  Untimed stealth is a niche request, I know, and our voices can easily be lost in the long run (obviously, yes non stealthers will beg for stealth being limited to like 10-45 seconds) but don't ruin the game for us guys who have/want stealthers as our/only characters/mains (and please dont say well just roll a tank, because that is like me asking people to move to a different country).  It would be like me trying to gimp your nukes or armor or shields etc.  This is for the hardcore steatlthers who just play as stealthers because that is who we are.  Its kind of like how some people get mad about MMORPGs turning into fast paced combat like FPS and how open world rvr/pvp has shifted to arenas and bgs.  What you like is getting watered down due to mainstream/casual players.  Its the same case for us steatlthers.  what we expect/want is being watered down due to people thinking hey you only need "combat stealth" cuz games are nowadays MMOFPS.  Well I want roleplay stealth for my MMORPG. 

 

I know we can argue about this over and over, but the stealth mechanics worked in DAOC, so if it aint broke don't fix it. That's all the proof we need basically.  I know many people have their individual stories and experiences about how they got ganked in WoW in an arena or battleground by rogues etc.  But this ain't Wow, so if you have a story about a problem with perma stealth, please don't reference your non-DAOC experience.  This game isn't Wow and won't be wow so don't gimp my stealth cuz you got ganked by rogues in an arena or BG in Wow.

And yes, please bring back archers with stealth too.  In short, just use the same stealth formula as DAOC heheh.

(Side note:  I didnt want to post a poll because it would be uber lopsided and stealth would probably be limited or nonexistant if it was up to the masses/polls).

 

(last side note:  also if you could bring back 1-shot retain-stealth kills (which was a bug i know) like we had in the first 1-2 years of DAOC that would be great too heheh)  Maybe I'm pushing my luck?  It'd be a way to keep those cloth wearers in keeps on their toes you know? :)

 

Yours truly,

 

Timetrapper (Lamorak)

 

 

Dear God no!

 

I played an Enhance Friar which was arguably the best class versus the Archers & Assasins in DAoC.  But the thing that constantly pissed me off was the ability for those classes to go invisible at will.  It wasidiotic that  a group of clsses could PvP with near impunity because of an overpowered brken ability.  Stealth should be more like Skyrim IMO, all about slilent movement and sneaking in shadows.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/15/13 4:13:45 PM#46
Not gona say that stealtherz did not require any skill in DAOC but that if played conservatively they did not need ANY skill :) If you were trying to kill 2-3 at a time ya that took some skill. Anyway in a pure RVR game like CU claims to be I guarantee that if you have invis atleast 30% of people in contested zones will be stealtherz within a year of release, off peak time more then 50%
  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

2/15/13 4:29:41 PM#47
I like the part where you concede most people will disagree with you, but still want things your way despite that.  LOL.
  Popori

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 333

2/15/13 4:30:10 PM#48

I would be fine with permanant stealth and very powerful stealth abilities if it became paramount that the stealth class exploit the stealth.

You can hit me for 50% of my health coming out of stealth, but if I catch you in plain sight I should be able to do likewise to you.

Being an ambush class should not render you the best 1v1 class.  It should render you the best opportunist.  You should not be guaranteed a win simply for finding someone alone unless they're already wounded.  Ambush should be an advantage, not a win.

You can jump me when I least expect it.  But once you're on me, you're committed.  No vanish, no second chance.  If you screw up your jump, you die for it.  Unlike your target you had the choice to pick your battle, you chose poorly.

Also, stealth should retain the DAoC mechanic of other cloakers not being able to see each other.  Even in groups.  Gank squads were retardedly powerful, having them be perfectly organized would just lead to them being very common.  All you'd see is random corpses popping from stealth.

Outside of that, whatever day/night/cover/movement mechanics they can add in to make stealth less of an inviso-shield would be cake.

  Xthos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

2/15/13 4:36:40 PM#49
I did not like the stealth abilities, where if they are getting beat, they can just restealth, and stroll off.  Some games have that ability on like a 3-5 minute timer....So their isn't much risk to fighting people, unless they get cc'd and can't restealth.
  User Deleted
2/15/13 4:42:14 PM#50

Stealth mechanics don't need to be nerfed, they need to be improved. I almost thought you were talking about the kind of stealth mechanics in Conan at first and I was like "Why would he ask for the dumbest stealth mechanic I've ever seen?" That game was completely messed up with stealth, the time of day would affect the stealth. even if you were in a completely dark cave where no light was entering. No lie mobs 4 levels below me could see my assassin in the middle of the night on a new moon when I was 30 feet away from a torch while the mob was turned away from me. Those kind of mechanics need to go.

Secondly, there doesn't need a to be a limit on stealth, no one is ever immune to damage while stealthed. Even in GW2 with their crazy limitation on stealth you aren't immune to AOE or swings. So people who complain about this really are weaksauce if they want all stealth to be removed entirely, sorry but you are if you say they need to remove it.

I completely agree, OP, that they need to leave the mechanic simple and make it so that damage still affects the players who use it when they are nearby AOE effects.

The whole idea behind the stealth classes is stealth once you take that away you damage the class Just like the whole idea behind the GW2 engineer was 20th century weapons of war, if you nerf those then what do you have, a placeholder class nothing more.

  User Deleted
2/15/13 6:46:42 PM#51

Sorry no stealth should be relagated to where it is not perma-stealth via an ability, but from what is happening or around you, such as if you have cover orr darkness to exploit to keep stealthed otherwise stealth should be a limited duration largely (unless granted via an item or npc.). Abilities that re-apply or allow the rogue to re-enter stealth after they have entered into combat, should have a long cd, while also have their chances of actually working affected by how many targets are in combat when used (this way there is no garuanted reset if a rogue's attempt goes badly.), even that when stealthing in a mass group you have a chance of being detected that increases with the size of the group. 

 

Also the fact someone brought up how unrealistic it is that they got seen on a moon-less night, in a cave, with a mob ffacing away from them. It is just as unrealistic an stupid that a stealther can walk up right around or on-top of a target in broad-day light even inches from their face, and yet are not seen.  So i would say proximity to the target should play a huge part in stealth, with even postitioning too among other things.

  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/15/13 8:18:36 PM#52
Originally posted by lightingbird
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

I.  Yeah, the above is pretty reasonable as well.  This is how DAOC was.  The movement speed was slowed considerably, people nearby (nonstealthers) could detect you if they got close enough.  As for the extra damage, that's fine, but maybe lower than 50%.

II.  Secondly, I'd be ok with a stealth mechanic that caps a stealth group at 3 people.  That would hopefully prevent stealthers of 4 or more getting together.  Of course 8 guys could run around ungrouped over IRC or Vent, BUT, they wouldnt share rps and that group probably wouldnt last long cuz not everyone would be able to share in the pvp rewards.

 

The problem is, most guys who like to run around alone and get smashed by stealthers won't compromise at all and just know one thing, "i can't run around alone like a moron without getting killed by you guys!, therefore you have no skill and stealth should be removed from games." 

 

Honestly, if you like to run around alone unstealthed, why not just team up with a friend or two that compliment your style, that way you won't get attacked out there all by your lonesome.

 

If you put stealth on a timer, you are just catering to a sliver of the nonstealthing community, which is the population of casual gamers who want to be able to run around a game alone down highly trafficked roads and just survive everything without grouping with anyone. Honestly, if your a tank/healer and you just grouped with 1 or 2 others who complimented your playstyle you wouldnt feel non timed stealth is OP. 

 

But in the end, this vocal minority of nonstealthing loners who want to be able to run around and see everything coming, like its a FPS, are the ones who end up ruining the game for the entire stealthing community.

 

Mark Jacobs please do not hurt the entire stealthing community for this small vocal fringe group of the nonstealth playing community who want the luxury of being able to run around in rvr alone and not get attacked and lose. 

 

 

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/15/13 8:47:12 PM#53

Stealth is a crutch for bad anyway, i can sneak an unstealthed party up on a raid or party undetected, *gasp* by using terrain and LOS and you know...been sneaky...

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/15/13 10:31:05 PM#54
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

No stealth class in DAoC was "faceroll I-WIN Button. if you played one you would know this.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3798

RIP City of Heroes!

2/15/13 10:39:06 PM#55
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by CluckingChicken
 If you want to eliminate the risk of getting jumped, simply stick with your group if you're not good enough to fend for yourself.

I always find it interesting when the people who start talking about "good enough" and "real pvp" always seem to be immersed in taking their opponent by surprise where they can fire upon them several times before their opponent even knows where they are.

Where is the "good enough" in that?

Is there such a thing as skill based stealth or a penalty for not doing it "right"? That would at least make it so that those who are stealthy have to be good as opposed to just hiding in order to be successful.

I'm fine with real stealth and not some magic ability that cloaks players.

There's no skill in that.

 

 

 I agree. No invis/stealth.

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/15/13 10:40:08 PM#56

Folks,

   As many of you know, I have a definite love/hate relationship with stealthers (yeah, there's a surprise). I wasn't going to allow them into WAR, got talked into it and well, the rest is the rest. I've played stealthers and loved them. I've been killed by stealthers and hated them. All I can say for now is that this is going to be a big decision for us. We've talked about how to/how not to implement them in CU. We're kicking around some interesting mechanics but I won't commit to having them, not having them until we are sure that we are making the right decision for the game's Community.

   Please, keep giving us feedback here but I'm not going to get drawn into the debate about them yet. Like I said, I've played them, had fun with them but I don't want to implement them unless we have something that is fun for both the stealthers and for the players that kill them. :)

   As always, thanks for feedback and interest.

Mark

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

2/15/13 10:51:44 PM#57

I think there should be stealthers. Being in an empty field and feeling completely safe just isn't right.

 

They.. they're watching..

  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/15/13 10:56:31 PM#58

I have played every assassin class in DAoC to at least RR5 and most a lot higher. I ran in a small stealth guild. We prided ourselves in taking on full groups and or equal numbers. Some fights we won, some we lost. None of the stealther classes were I WIN buttons. They do take skill to play and each realm had a stealther to counter and detect with.

It really sounds like most of the major complaints here are from people who were killed by a stelther when running alone. Try being an assassin in DAoC and hitting a RR5+ tank / zerker/ Bladmaster etc.. That was a tough fight even if you got off a good PA ( unless the other player sucked).

I would like to see those crying about how old stealth is and how OP stealth is, to go make a one and be an I WIN BUTTON!- go try it!

I understand why you bitch and moan about stealth, it is frustrating when a stealther can spend his "earned" RA  and vanish and then get away- thats frustrating, I agree. Vanish is on a timer. Also, you cant just restealth in DAoC while you are in combat unless Vanish is up!

I agree with the statement before mentioned.... If stealth has no place then, neither does your beloved caster- or any magic.
  shohen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/04
Posts: 43

2/15/13 10:59:56 PM#59

I think there should be some type of stealth mechanic, but I don't like straight invisibility.

Perhaps making the stealther partially transparent, with reduced movement would work. That way you would be required to move carefully with some thought to stay undetected and non-stealthers would still have to be wary in wooded or other shadowy areas.

Give them an option of crawling for open areas or increased stealth.. Hard to see if they aren't moving, but still possible, and more visible when actively moving.

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

2/15/13 11:01:11 PM#60
Originally posted by time007

Honestly, if you like to run around alone unstealthed, why not just team up with a friend or two that compliment your style, that way you won't get attacked out there all by your lonesome.

 

'If you like soloing, why don't you just group?'  Wait wut

 

If you put stealth on a timer, you are just catering to a sliver of the nonstealthing community, which is the population of casual gamers who want to be able to run around a game alone down highly trafficked roads and just survive everything without groupin

Uhh, seems to me that's what the stealther community wants.  Lol.

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