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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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189 posts found
  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/15/13 9:07:04 AM#21
Originally posted by Axxar

I dislike stealth in MMOs. Having played a stealthedr can see how it's pretty nice to be guaranteed to win all fights since you can just wait until you have the advantage before attacking. It's not so fun being on the receiving end, though.

I think they did it somewhat decently in Warhammer Online. You had to be tactical about when to go invisible instead of just being it all the time, so let's hope they do it like that rather than permanent invisibility like in World of WarCraft.

As mentioned in my OP, i would try to address any counter points:

 

in the first paragraph you mentioned, you just wait until you have the advantage before attacking, and then in the 2nd paragraph you mention you had to be tactical about when to go invisible.  Well isnt waiting until you have the advantage, like if the target sits, runs off alone, stands around, lags behind his group, etc tactical? 

 

Not sure we can address the issue of a "guaranteed win" with non timed stealth, because any stealther knows thats just not true.  if you attack a sitting character in a keep then yeah it will be a guaranteed win, but in other cases its not.  tanks have Ignore pain, casters can mez/stun run off, blow you to up etc  I can give you another example of a guaranteed win.  You see a stealther without invisibility/stealth in an open area, you run him down with your buddy or group because his stealth-on-a-timer ran out and you just waited until he reappeared.  or as the idea has been flung out, hes partially stealthed because of his climate/surroundings, and you proceed to run him down/GB him. 

 

Honestly, when I played a stealther in DAOC, i never complained about getting GB'd if unstealthed.  It was my decision to be tactical about when to come out of stealth so if i got caught, then guess what, its open season on me.

 

As for point 2, well, warhammer moved toward the trend off sped up combat, no stick, 1 week of pve to level cap, etc.  to say it did alot of bad things and some good things, would lead to a long conversation, so lets just pretend warhammer never existed, in this thread heheh.

  User Deleted
2/15/13 9:11:16 AM#22
Originally posted by stealthbr
The problem is that for online games to implement realistic stealth mechanics they would have to have forced shadows (that you can't disable), crouching, crawling, no tab-targetting, no floating names, no third person (or extremely limited), noises from movement and footprints (and ways to lessen them), etc.

Depends on which side has to have them enable or disabled, as in that a stealther would want to enable them so they can see the shadows, but regardless of them being enabled or not on other comps it would take the que from the stealther's pc or server side of where shadows are for when a stealther enters stealth. Crouching an crawling would be a nice added elements or even just aspects added for stealthers, and even others for more tactical choices in hwo you fight. With tab-targeting and floating names when the stealther enters into stealth their name-plate is diabled (regardless of what the other person' pc setting is, and anyone targetting them has their target on them dropped. 

  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/15/13 9:21:59 AM#23
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by tom_gore

Invisibility... I mean "stealth" is a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all MMOs forever.

 

^^This^^

I had a shadowblade in DAOC as well as my healer and friar. I always felt stealth in DAOC was rediculous as do I think it is in WoW as well.

Walking around invisible is rediculously overpowered, especially when your opener would take over half your opponents life, not to mention the stun they'd have on them....it sucks to have to stand there and not be able to do anything, and it's not good pvp to me, and there is absolutely no skill in killing your opponent with that kind of stealth and abilities.

Back in the day you'd run in stealth groups and destroy anyone you'd come upon, they'd have little to no chance of survival unless the zerg happened to come around and wipe you out. DAOC stealthers were the most overpowered I've ever played in any game.

I really Would NOT like to see that kind of stealth in Camelot Unchained.

 

Ok let me provide a counter point to the "stealth is stupid and ridiculous" arguement.  Magic is stupid and ridiculous. Its a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all games, nuking more specifically should be banned from all games.  You can press a button and kill multiple targets in 3 seconds. (I.E. one chanter who runs up on a raid and starts pbae'ing everyone nonstop).  So casters are OP'd cuz as a stealther I can't kill mutliple targets with 1-3 dagger swings the way nukers can kill 2 to 20 people with 1-3 nukes.  Yes it happens in relic raids, those dumb enough to be near a nuker when hes ae'ing well, your SOL.  So casters are stupid cuz i can't do what they do, and kill people as fast as them, at their speed at all.  My abilities are so much more different than theirs! 

 

Firstly I dont think magic is stupid, I'm just using your logic to approach your conlusion that stealth is stupid.  Just making a point that we shouldn't devolve nontimed stealth mechanics into a war of, your skill is more OP than mine. 

 

Lastly, invisibility means no one can see you.  You can be seen with stealth, if you get close or near a certain radius.  and other stealthers can see you.  and don't get me started on vamps!!!!!!!!!!!! heheh.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7493

2/15/13 9:41:48 AM#24
Originally posted by tom_gore

Invisibility... I mean "stealth" is a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all MMOs forever.

 

I wouldn't have said it like this, but I do think invisibility as "stealth" is an old mechanic. 10 years ago that was the best they could do. It's just not the case anymore look at planetside 2 for example. Stealth is just that, not invisibility. Infilitrator armor uses an activie camo. The stealth person, in no way is invisible, but he can blend in with his surroundings.

 

To take it a step further enviorment detail when built correctly will allow a player to be stealthy, I will use AoW as an example. There your able to hide behind corners, in trees, behind trees, roof tops, ect. 

 

I played a WoW rogue, and faced many more as a warlock being my main. Eat the sap and cheap shot ---> Death coil, dot dot dot fear drain --->Wait for his cloak of shadows (most likely instant) take a couple shots, trinket the Kidney shot. Rinse and repeat.  For the poster a couple above it's just an old mechanic. 

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/15/13 9:44:46 AM#25

As long as there are no long range stealthers. Scouts, in DaoC were the worst. They had amazing range and had a ton of escape tools if things got rough. Quite literally a smart scout in DaoC should never die if they play it safe. Scouts IMHO really hurt the solo game in DaoC as they would add in on every fight from distance and there was very little a player could do to stop them. People claimed that the DPS of a scout was horrible, but even so they didnt' have to really kill anything to get rps. Wait for a fight to begin, pop off a few shots on the loser, run away and profit with a few rps.

Apart from that, my other concern is the ability to re-stealth in a fight. If you take a risk to attack a player, you shouldn't be able to re-stealth easily if things start going bad. I would say 30 seconds out of combat to re-stealth would be fine, with no abilities to make it so you can re-stealth immidiately.

Other than that, a stealther should never ever be able to move faster than a real player while stealthed. I'm not saying it should be super gimped, but something like you only go 90%.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3618

2/15/13 9:48:55 AM#26
Stealthing classes were the reason why I didn't like DAoC, or at least not in RVR......I got killed too many times in a single blow by stealth classes and while Im sure it was fun for that person it wasnt fun for the rest of us.....PErsonally, I could do without stealth or CC in RVR.
  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/15/13 9:49:10 AM#27
This is exhibit number 1 that invisibility is a bad idea. The real reason it should not exist is that it destroys chance of any other classes to solo. In daoc at the start of the game there were lots of classes running around solo, year into the game you had 3 choices Zerg, 8 man, roll stealther. Daoc stealth was just a mini game barely connected to the rest of the realm war. Cut it. WAR stealth was just stupid and brought nothing to the game
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17504

2/15/13 9:52:48 AM#28
Originally posted by time007

To sov-rath: 

 

Hehe lets not let this post drift into the realm of how Party A (stealthers) go back and forth with Party B (non steatlhers) about their skill level and how they/us suxxors, or we/you are weak, or how we/you have no skills etc.  I mean Daoc in its prime wasnt flooded with tons of consistent stealth zergs because in general you can't get a high RR zerging it up in a stealth group.  You get like 80 rps when you kill some individual straggler with a group of 4 or more. 

 

Also please don't lump us in with people who say "real pvp" and all that stuff.  We aren't people griefing a respawn point 5 vs 1 or ganking lowbies.  Non-timed stealth doesnt lead to that.  Lack of rewards and RvR zones prevent that.  I'm just talking about good ole fashioned early 2000's cocky troll tank dropping and hearing that sweet sweet "Ruzzahhh" sound they make as i take em down.  (though sometimes they'd pop Ignore pain and I'd be up a creek)

 

 

Well of course not all "stealthers" are the same but it remains to be seen how this game will reward those that hide in the shadows.

In the end I don't think a good many stealthers care so much about realm points or faction pride but "making the kill". That could be a generalization but the audience for these games has shifted a bit. When I see the claim that "players need to suck it up or have better skill against stealthy players" I do wonder if they truly believe if what they do take skill?

It takes no skill to have the game cloak you so you can burn down your opponent before they find you. It's certainly a valid way to conduct a war but I suspect in a game it isn't goign to be surprising to have people question it.

This is not to say that a stealthy way of playing is invalid or  always completely unfair (depending on how the game handles it ) but if stealthy game play is included it would be nice to have some sort of counter or some mechanic that enforces actual skill or allows for a brutal retaliation if the victim is quick to find the stealther.

And of course that goes back to the original premise of this thread which begs the question "why allow players unlimited stealth if all that means is that they have an extra immunity to take out players right and left"?

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

2/15/13 9:52:59 AM#29
Originally posted by tlear
This is exhibit number 1 that invisibility is a bad idea. The real reason it should not exist is that it destroys chance of any other classes to solo. In daoc at the start of the game there were lots of classes running around solo, year into the game you had 3 choices Zerg, 8 man, roll stealther. Daoc stealth was just a mini game barely connected to the rest of the realm war. Cut it. WAR stealth was just stupid and brought nothing to the game

I somewhat disagree. You were unable to solo as a low realm rank, but as a higher realm rank any class could solo. The problem really started when the Archer patch turned archers into invisible casters, allowing them to easily add in on every single fight. That screwed up the solo experience for the high realm rank players.

Today, you would be correct. Non-stealthers rarely solo.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/15/13 10:05:19 AM#30
Yeah I could solo as high RR, problem was that there was no way to know if you are fighting 1 person or there are 5 friends coming. On other hand being bait was fun, or using my alt hunter TS to sweep MG with an 8 man always hilarious
  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1752

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

2/15/13 10:09:09 AM#31

Stealth is one of the most broken mechanics in MMO history.  It makes it virtually impossible to balance classes and content between PVE/PVP.  What devs really need to do is get rid of this archaic mechanic and come up with something better.

I've always played a stealther.  Shit's broken and needs to go.

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/15/13 10:20:45 AM#32

GW2 stealth, bad? you can use it while backstabing people, WHILE TOTALLY INVISIBLE!

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  lightingbird

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/05/03
Posts: 106

Mostly known as Blackzorro

2/15/13 10:22:49 AM#33
Originally posted by Alders

Stealth is one of the most broken mechanics in MMO history.  It makes it virtually impossible to balance classes and content between PVE/PVP.  What devs really need to do is get rid of this archaic mechanic and come up with something better.

I've always played a stealther.  Shit's broken and needs to go.

I wonder if this is a former wow player.

 

:)

  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/15/13 10:36:29 AM#34
Originally posted by lightingbird
Originally posted by Alders

Stealth is one of the most broken mechanics in MMO history.  It makes it virtually impossible to balance classes and content between PVE/PVP.  What devs really need to do is get rid of this archaic mechanic and come up with something better.

I've always played a stealther.  Shit's broken and needs to go.

I wonder if this is a former wow player.

 

:)

hahah, yeah he mentions PVE.  Yeah man, stealth totally rules in PVE.  You can backstab dragons etc.  Total OP'd in fights vs. mobs.  Archaic and needs to be done away with in PVE.  I mean, can stealthers be anymore OP"d in PVE?  I once snuck up on a skeleton outside of camelot and one shotted him.

  KaiserPhoenix

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/13
Posts: 66

2/15/13 12:04:44 PM#35

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

  lightingbird

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/05/03
Posts: 106

Mostly known as Blackzorro

2/15/13 12:29:18 PM#36
Originally posted by KaiserPhoenix

You can have perma stealth if

 

-70% movement speed while stealthed

-players within a 6 meter radius can detect you

- you take 50% extra damage when broken prematurely out of stealth

 

 

stealth should be a tactical choice with downsides, not a faceroll I-WIN button.

I'm completely on board with all of this minue the damage part.  Maybe 10%.  50% would just be silly.  

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3203

2/15/13 12:35:19 PM#37
I liked being a stealthed Scout, sniping people who are careless to get in range :)  The best time I had in DAoC was defending a relic keep with a group of bow Scouts stealthed up on the wall, killing 2 or 3 people by calling out targets and sniping them :) Boom headshot style :)
  lightingbird

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/05/03
Posts: 106

Mostly known as Blackzorro

2/15/13 12:46:17 PM#38
Originally posted by Gravarg
I liked being a stealthed Scout, sniping people who are careless to get in range :)  The best time I had in DAoC was defending a relic keep with a group of bow Scouts stealthed up on the wall, killing 2 or 3 people by calling out targets and sniping them :) Boom headshot style :)

Agreed.  Well I almost never grouped except with Time and a fwe other occasions but I get what you are saying.

  Southpaw.Gamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/25/08
Posts: 578

Full Sail University - Game Design Student

2/15/13 12:52:11 PM#39

DAOC was created a long time ago... we are in 2013 now.  Stealth like every other aspect of a NEW MMO should rightfully be changed according to what is possible with todays technology.  I'm not sure whhat type of combat system this new game will have... but I am hopeful that the devs will go for a FPS type combat system and not another tab-target game.  If FPS combat systems are in place "Stealth" should be the use of the terrian.  Not a skill that makes you invisible.

 

Darkfall 1.0 had the perfect stealth system.  In that game you used the terrian to hide your approach.  You ambushed people as they came by.  No artifical stealth.  

 

Make it happen.  Let it happen.  Bring the MMO community into the next generation of MMORPG games.

Full Sail University - Game Design

  Lore84

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 69

2/15/13 1:19:08 PM#40
Originally posted by Southpaw.Gamer

DAOC was created a long time ago... we are in 2013 now.  Stealth like every other aspect of a NEW MMO should rightfully be changed according to what is possible with todays technology.  I'm not sure whhat type of combat system this new game will have... but I am hopeful that the devs will go for a FPS type combat system and not another tab-target game.  If FPS combat systems are in place "Stealth" should be the use of the terrian.  Not a skill that makes you invisible.

 

Darkfall 1.0 had the perfect stealth system.  In that game you used the terrian to hide your approach.  You ambushed people as they came by.  No artifical stealth.  

 

Make it happen.  Let it happen.  Bring the MMO community into the next generation of MMORPG games.

Im not going to argue for which method is best, I mean that entirely depends on the other core mechanics of the game. However, newer isn't necessarily always better... also,when it comes to an MMO i really think theres nothing wrong with tab target. This isn't a shooter, so I dont see the need for FPS mechanics to be applied to it, with the exception of perhaps, certain spells. I think its too early to assume too much though to be fair xD

Ex-DAOC, Excalibur

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