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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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189 posts found
  cd3925

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 29

2/23/13 8:56:30 PM#181
Originally posted by Kreedz

I think its quite typical of the people who are pro-stealth to take such a childish stance of "You are bad" or "Nah uh!" when it comes to counter arguements.

Fits the Stereotype perfectly, doesn't it?

Kreedz.... you never even tried to give me some tips? Your coming here and saying the very thing that you say we are saying. Chip in and give some real feed back.

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

2/23/13 9:28:25 PM#182

I'd like to see stealth in game since it tends to encourage solo play a bit more. That said it isn't make or break for me since I loved soloing on visible toons much more than my stealthers. Mostly because stealth classes tend to be weaker outside of stealth ( and in most cases an alpha strike). The only thing I don't want to see again is in combat stealth. In daoc vanish was as far as I'd ever want to see in combat stealth go. GW2 is probably the worst offender... they decided to avoid out of combat stealth, and ended up making the most obnoxious stealther I've ever seen.

 

TLDR My only request would be to avoid the in combat stealth as much as possible if you do decide to put stealth in this game.

  Benezetta

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/03
Posts: 85

2/24/13 1:08:46 AM#183

This thread is fascinating!  It reminds me of the old days of DAoC on the VN boards when we all fought over every little nuance, real or imagined.

I was primarily a rejuv cleric and honestly, stealthers didn't have much of an effect on my gameplay.  If I joined a group they'd swing by and pick me up.  Or I'd wait until another group formed up and tag along until I got to where I was going.  No way would I just go trotting out all by myself in the frontier - that was just plan stupid for a rejuv cleric!  I also knew that stealthers had their own brand of rvr amongst themselves; but it didn't affect me and at the time I never thought much about it.

There have been some great ideas in this thread.  I hope CU gets the stealth wars figured out.  It was an integral part of DAoC and I'd hate to see it missing from CU.

But I'm not going to get up on a soapbox and start yipping about stealth.  I don't know much about it so it's better to leave it to the experts.  Besides, I need to save my battle lines for the cleric/healer threads LOL!

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

2/24/13 12:53:24 PM#184
Originally posted by Benezetta

This thread is fascinating!  It reminds me of the old days of DAoC on the VN boards when we all fought over every little nuance, real or imagined.

I was primarily a rejuv cleric and honestly, stealthers didn't have much of an effect on my gameplay.  If I joined a group they'd swing by and pick me up.  Or I'd wait until another group formed up and tag along until I got to where I was going.  No way would I just go trotting out all by myself in the frontier - that was just plan stupid for a rejuv cleric!  I also knew that stealthers had their own brand of rvr amongst themselves; but it didn't affect me and at the time I never thought much about it.

There have been some great ideas in this thread.  I hope CU gets the stealth wars figured out.  It was an integral part of DAoC and I'd hate to see it missing from CU.

But I'm not going to get up on a soapbox and start yipping about stealth.  I don't know much about it so it's better to leave it to the experts.  Besides, I need to save my battle lines for the cleric/healer threads LOL!

Nice post.  Great to see someone who understood that running through the frontier solo was very dangerous... just like it probably was in medieval times. 

I actually hope the Stealth Wars DON'T return in CU.  Stealth Wars were a direct consequence of the design flaws of the Stealth classes: they simply offered NOTHING to the group dynamic.  This created a kind of "ghetto-ization" of Stealthers where they were relegated to living and playing amongst themselves.

I fear that if we see a return of the Stealth Wars, it will again be due to the inability of Stealthers to add anything to the group dynamic.  I sincerely hope that is not the case.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

2/24/13 2:24:34 PM#185
A) Utilize DAoC stealth but allow it while weakening other aspects of character development. Rogues in DAoC had five friggin spec lines. Make spec lines a static number maybe?

B) Change the name of the skill to Invisibility, a dark art taught only by secret cabals. Apparently the semantics piss some people off.

C) Utilize a different stealth mechanic that is in line with what many posters here have suggested.

D) Scrap stealth.

I will play CU no matter which option is implemented... And I was a career Nightshade. A few points, though:

It is unwise to apply one's opinion of "stealth" to a game who's creators are still conceptualizing it. We know it is RPS. So we need Scissors. Whether that's a stealth role or a skirmish-ey dps role, there will be scissors.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Jacobs is kindly giving us a chance to directly influence this game. That is awesome. However, given the dissent in regard to features (like stealth), do any of us really want him to obssess on catering to particular tastes? I say this man is poised to make the game of his career, and we needn't freak out over prognosticated minutae.

If there is no stealth, I am sure rogues will still be viable.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/24/13 6:19:26 PM#186
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Benezetta

This thread is fascinating!  It reminds me of the old days of DAoC on the VN boards when we all fought over every little nuance, real or imagined.

I was primarily a rejuv cleric and honestly, stealthers didn't have much of an effect on my gameplay.  If I joined a group they'd swing by and pick me up.  Or I'd wait until another group formed up and tag along until I got to where I was going.  No way would I just go trotting out all by myself in the frontier - that was just plan stupid for a rejuv cleric!  I also knew that stealthers had their own brand of rvr amongst themselves; but it didn't affect me and at the time I never thought much about it.

There have been some great ideas in this thread.  I hope CU gets the stealth wars figured out.  It was an integral part of DAoC and I'd hate to see it missing from CU.

But I'm not going to get up on a soapbox and start yipping about stealth.  I don't know much about it so it's better to leave it to the experts.  Besides, I need to save my battle lines for the cleric/healer threads LOL!

Nice post.  Great to see someone who understood that running through the frontier solo was very dangerous... just like it probably was in medieval times. 

I actually hope the Stealth Wars DON'T return in CU.  Stealth Wars were a direct consequence of the design flaws of the Stealth classes: they simply offered NOTHING to the group dynamic.  This created a kind of "ghetto-ization" of Stealthers where they were relegated to living and playing amongst themselves.

I fear that if we see a return of the Stealth Wars, it will again be due to the inability of Stealthers to add anything to the group dynamic.  I sincerely hope that is not the case.

Again, here is another extreme statement that is wrong.  Stealthers provded nothing to the group dynamic?  Do you feel the same way about mercs?  What about minstrels?  Scouts?

 

This is simply not true.  I know its not logical to say that, because your view that stealthers in the group dynamic is wrong, so is you view on non-timed vs. timed stealth.

 

But really, scouts cann pull mobs in a PVE setting.

Stealthers can scout out keeps in a RVR setting.  Can climb into keeps and report numbers.  They could kill the oil guys inside which i routinely did.  I wasnt a zerger, but i always grouped with my guild groups and was always being told to do all kinds of crap that no one else could do.  And this was just in RVR. 

 

I know this game won't have PVE, but even so, there is a DPS role in PVE and in RVR.  Just a flat out DPS role, not even considering all the stealth tasks that your group or raid leader will assign.

 

So this kind of fringe statement is again, part of the flawed logic where the people who want stealth taken away are completely wrong.  I don't see how Mark would listen to these biased statements and have them effect him. 

 

"stealth is archaic"

"stealth is broken and should be removed"

"stealthers offered nothing to the group dynamic"

"stealthers are OP"

"stealth is an i-win button"

**Edit - Another common mistake - confusing stealth alts with career stealthers. We don't stealth zerg and our patterns and playstyle are clearly misunderstood even though we have 18 pages of us posting on how we play.  Untimed stealth doesn't create uber stealth zergs or any ghettoization. FOTM upgrades and uberfying of skills creates tons of stealth who in turn group together causes this issue.  No one will play a stealth unless its a FOTM that can kill other classes easily.  How do they get this capability without hard work, simple, you roll a stealth alt, find out he's a gimp, and spam the developers to make him stronger.  But that isnt us career stealthers spamming these guys to make us more uber.  We just want our core mechanic and thats it.  Its the mainstream FOTM players who want all this extra crap ontop of non-timed stealth because they can't kill anything, cuz they don't know how to play their alt and don't invest anytime in him.

 

I'm glad this is all being written down because it makes for a very good case that non-timed stealth is viable, since the other party is clearly just wanting to nerf a class period.  This issue is a very complex one, but not on the anti-stealth end, with them its just lets nerf it.  So there is a clear misunderstanding of stealthers that I am happy is being exposed on this thread.

 

People who don't understand stealthers  should not be allowed to nerf our core mechanic of nontimed stealth for the reasons i just posted above.  You have stealthers here posting very intricate and complex reasoning of why it should be kept, then you have the anti side just baseing their entire arguement with the statements above. 

 

Sort of like tea partiers vs. democrats for healthcare.  One side is saying crazy statements like "you are nazis", "this is leading to communism", and the other side has a very detailed arguement as to why we need a healthcare overhaul.

 

Well you know who wins?  The loudest group in most cases.  You know who gets the most attention?  The loud group with the extreme statements.  So yeah, in this case im making an analogy.  You guys are the tea party nuts making extreme statements that are clearly wrong and don't deal with the issue.  We on the other hand are making very detailed explanations that probably won't be read completely. 

 

********Edit - You put stealther wars instead of stealth classes.  But in the end, those stealth wars were played out by alts.  Those stealth zergs were not career stealths.  Those were just a group of friends who got bored with the game, wanted to roll FOTM's and just camp their own realm's bridge.  yes camping your own bridge is lame and the ensuing stealthers who came after them were just lone wolves who were attacking the other realm's bridges and killing their reinforcements.

 

So yes killing the other sides reinforcements does help the group dynamic.  But you are just seeing that side of stealth alts who were RR3 who decided to camp their own bridge. 

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

2/24/13 6:35:58 PM#187

Whoa, Time007,

I'm on your side.  I definitely want Stealth in the game.  I just want it to be useful and balanced.  What I meant when I said "Stealthers add nothing to the group dynamic" is in terms of the 8-man group.  The only Stealther who could contribute to an 8 man group was a Minstrel... and a grouping Minstrel would usually spec very low in Stealth.  Otherwise, there were rare Hunters, Rangers and Scouts who may run with 8 man groups, but they never specced into Stealth, either.

As a LONG time Ranger, I scouted a ton for the Realm.  But, again, that's not a group skill, that's a realm skill... in other words, I don't need to be in a group to do that.  I certainly couldn't DPS like a caster, I couldn't tank like a Hero, I couldn't CC, I couldn't heal, I simply could do NOTHING to benefit a group... or at least I could do nothing that some other class couldn't do better.

That was fine in the early days, but as the days of the uber 8man leet dewdz progressed, I was further and further relegated to playing only with other Stealthers... and fighting only other Stealthers.  Hence, my comment about the Stealth Ghetto.

Don't get me wrong, the LAST thing I want to see in CU is another 8man/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up.  Likewise, I don't want another 1v1/leet Solo/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up, either.  If anything will chase me away from the game, these things will.

I want to see REALM PRIDE!  And I want to be able to contribute to the greater good of the realm as a Stealther... not just run around and gank other Stealthers.  Does that make sense?

 

EDIT: You couldn't possibly be more wrong about the Stealth Wars.  They were NOT alts.  In fact, on Percival, the overwhelming majority of Stealthers were career Stealthers.  I know... I was one of them.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 388

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/24/13 6:45:44 PM#188
Originally posted by Tumblebutz

Whoa, Time007,

I'm on your side.  I definitely want Stealth in the game.  I just want it to be useful and balanced.  What I meant when I said "Stealthers add nothing to the group dynamic" is in terms of the 8-man group.  The only Stealther who could contribute to an 8 man group was a Minstrel... and a grouping Minstrel would usually spec very low in Stealth.  Otherwise, there were rare Hunters, Rangers and Scouts who may run with 8 man groups, but they never specced into Stealth, either.

As a LONG time Ranger, I scouted a ton for the Realm.  But, again, that's not a group skill, that's a realm skill... in other words, I don't need to be in a group to do that.  I certainly couldn't DPS like a caster, I couldn't tank like a Hero, I couldn't CC, I couldn't heal, I simply could do NOTHING to benefit a group... or at least I could do nothing that some other class couldn't do better.

That was fine in the early days, but as the days of the uber 8man leet dewdz progressed, I was further and further relegated to playing only with other Stealthers... and fighting only other Stealthers.  Hence, my comment about the Stealth Ghetto.

Don't get me wrong, the LAST thing I want to see in CU is another 8man/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up.  Likewise, I don't want another 1v1/leet Solo/"Quit F*cking Adding, *sshole!" mentality crop up, either.  If anything will chase me away from the game, these things will.

I want to see REALM PRIDE!  And I want to be able to contribute to the greater good of the realm as a Stealther... not just run around and gank other Stealthers.  Does that make sense?

 

EDIT: You couldn't possibly be more wrong about the Stealth Wars.  They were NOT alts.  In fact, on Percival, the overwhelming majority of Stealthers were career Stealthers.  I know... I was one of them.

Ok, I see your post was more bent toward stealth wars.  Apologies.

 

Yeah, i normally grouped just with 1 other guy and we attacked stealthers and non stealthers alike.  We didnt really start stealth wars, we ended them.  I suppose that was just on the classic servers we had it easy.  I guess on the non classic servers towards the 5+ year of DAOC buff bots got ridiculous.  I guess I can't comprehend how crappy it was.

 

But man, if you take out buff bots, those stealth zergs would get buried everytime like they did on the classic servers.  We routinely had heretics and reavers routinely wiping them out either alone or in pairs.

  versulas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 286

2/25/13 1:07:55 AM#189
Originally posted by Alders

Stealth is a crutch.  Perma stealth is absurd with todays gamers/pvpers.  Looking at this from what worked 10 years ago is the wrong direction to take.

Stealth is not a crutch, it's a playstyle... I loved to appear in front of solo runners, /bow, then start the fight once they'd caught sight of me. I wasn't looking for an unfair advantage. What I WAS looking to do was avoid the roaming 8-mans that hunted down runners like a pack of dogs.

 

Stealth had a legitimate use in siege warfare. Not only did it cut off reinforcements, but you could climb the walls and pick off those defenders nuking down on the attackers so the melee/ram could move forward and start taking down the doors.

 

Stealth was far from OP in any instance besides lowbie twink shadowblades perfing people with a 2h'er and one-shotting them. There were mechanics in place to help those caught by surprise, blade turn, those little pets that took damage for you, detection turrets, cooldowns to instantly heal and reset the fight, cooldowns to get distance or to CC, etc. Despite the disadvantages, some  people liked having a class that allowed them to make a meaningful contribution while running solo.

EVERY other class is more efficient receiving heals, sharing buffs, providing or getting peels, or w/e the case may be. Stealth is a godsend for those of us that don't want to be forced into those roles.

-

At the very least, give us some sort of camouflage ability to look like a broken-down wagon or something in the middle of a wartorn area where it requires some skill and a good deal of luck to be convincing enough to get the drop on someone, in an ever-changing environment so people don't memorise where the debris is XD

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