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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » KS Update 28....STEALTH.

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33 posts found
  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

4/26/13 4:38:12 AM#21

The risk vs reward people talk about was fine in DAoC, before the age of buffbots.

 

It's hugely risky as an unbuffed stealther in DAoC to be playing out in RvR. Vs groups that have buffs& heals - no chance. Versus other unbuffed soloers: good chance, but certainly not a given.

In the end it comes down to this:

---

Hello gamedesigner,

Please nerf paper, it's overpowered.

Scissors are fine though, don't change them

Signed,

Rock.

---

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2007

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

4/26/13 4:46:36 AM#22

But Rock can't find Scissors... because Scissors is invisible.

Unless Rock gets True Sight like abilities to see stealthers normally from distance, of course.

  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

4/26/13 7:03:42 AM#23

It's a novel idea but I wonder at the implementation of something like this and preventing serious exploits.

it seems very complicated and resource hungry. Do they have the funds to make something like this work?

I have to say, I'm not a fan of this concept at all and extremely skeptical.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  TigsKC

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 139

4/26/13 10:06:25 AM#24

 

I guess I fall into the "great idea, but concerned about implmentation" crowd.

However, I love these novel ideas and much prefer this kind of thing to the boring and stale mechanics we have in the current crop of MMOs.  Obviously, more development is required to translate concept into gameplay.  I am excited to see where this leads.  I like the Veil as sentient being and i am very intrigued at it coming out of lore and landing right into the middle of gameplay.

 

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/26/13 10:11:55 AM#25

MJ's stealth concept is the point where the "big vision" perspective needs to be throttled a bit by realistic design.

The basic concept of having a veil "alternate ghost world stealth mechanic" is good, and I like it.  It's an inverted perspective of classic stealth and it can work.

 

The part that won't work is the way he structured his two classes.  I'm going to generally ignore that aspect of his update completely.

 

Basically, the core concept will work if the "veilwalker/stalker" class is the same class, and can go into or out of the "veil" whenever, as well as have vision into / out of the veil (although the vision range is limited -- more later).

 

In order to cross the veil (into or out of), make it a long cast time / channel / whatever.  Like 4s channel, last 1-2 seconds of which have a fade-in time on the "other side".

 

This means that an ambush "from stealth" is slow.  It also means that a stealther has "100% pure perma stealth" until they try to interact with the normal world.  It also means that escape into the veil is pretty slow.  The delay also means that the ambushing force could be scouted by your own veilies.

 

In terms of tactics, this is where vision comes into play.  Conceptually, consider this:

 

Normal vision distance: 5000 (normal player in the normal world)

Veil vision in the veil: 2000 (e.g. a veilstalker inside the veil looking for other veil-players)

Veil vision FROM the normal world: 500-1000 (e.g. a veilstalker in the normal plane acting as a spotter for a regular group, looking for stealthies)

Edit: A non-veil player (non-stealther) could have something like 100 range veil vision from the normal world, so if they walk over a stealther they can see the ghost, but they can't attack them (they're in the veil).

 

Normal vision from the veil: 1000 (a veilstalker in the veil looking for a gank, or to scout)

 

 

This means that norm v. norm have long-distance tactical capability.  Stealth ganks are possible but may be sluggish to keep track of scouting.  Scouts can work either from the normal plane at a reduced level.  Stealth Warzz can occur in the veil when scouts enter to look for baddies at a longer range.

 

 

In terms of class design, stealthers should not have exceptional burst damage or stunlock.  I think utility and debuffs are good, and moderate dps, and moderate tanking capability are all good.  Whatever.

  Melloz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/13
Posts: 26

4/26/13 10:39:41 AM#26
Originally posted by Zinzan

It's a novel idea but I wonder at the implementation of something like this and preventing serious exploits.

it seems very complicated and resource hungry. Do they have the funds to make something like this work?

I have to say, I'm not a fan of this concept at all and extremely skeptical.

Have to say I share this opinon.  I'm most leery about this Viel plane and exactly what it will entail.  If it's some secondary world with NPCs, seems like a lot to design for one archtype.  If this is something like being attacked with insta roots, stuns, and slows while in the Viel that can be mitigated with other effects from teamates, I could see that.  That doesn't fit in with the idea of solo stealth play being viable though.  Also seems like a nightmare to balance and I'm not sure that effort's adding a whole lot to the overall game.

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

4/26/13 11:49:35 AM#27

Reposted for clarity. I think what many a stealther isn't realize is you CAN do what you did in DAOC. Pop out of stealth and own someone. BUT you will have less opening DPS so you may want to focus on wounded players. You will probably have better amor and HP so thats cool. And, YOU FREAKEN GET FED VICTIMS! How cool is that?

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  muchavez

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/04
Posts: 208

4/26/13 12:33:24 PM#28

I don't think stealth is a problem.  Its when you combine multiple factors together.

  • designed to kill all other players in 1v1
  • insane damage opener
  • strong CC
  • half a dozen escape abilities
I think its a poor design decision to say we want players to group up so we will have one class that just kills everyone in 1v1.
 

Like a stealth class that is given the edge against all other classes in 1v1 that also does the most DPS, has a massive damage dealing opener, and also has a half dozen escape abilities so if someone gets the edge on a stealth player he just vanishes.  That is frusturating.

For example GW2 Thieves while they dont have all of the above they had an insane opener where they would teleport to you and kill you in 3 moves in 1-2 seconds.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with a perma stealth class who isn't designed to kill all other players in 1v1 without a vanish type skill.

 

Again stealth isnt the problem, its like saying I hate magic because im a 2h sword player that has to go up against someone shooting fireballs that kill me instantly with a 50 yard blast radius with no cooldown

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1069

4/26/13 7:09:11 PM#29

I don't agree with taking the easy road, and trying to please people who are killed by rogues. People are going to complain no matter what. If its not rogues it will be another class. 

Rogues should be the counter to rogues, just like visibles hunt visibles. You hate rogues? Make a rogue and hunt them down.

In almost any PvP game I can think of rogues are the red-headed stepchild. No defense, and no one wants them in PvP groups. There is a downside to choosing the life of a rogue. 

I don't like how he is trying to not offend people who will complain no matter what class kills them. 

  Vargur

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 142

4/26/13 7:14:10 PM#30
Originally posted by Raagnarz

IMO, some of the problems with stealth, from both a designer's and a player’s perspective are:

  • 1) A lot of potential stealthers, most likely the vast majority, want long duration stealth, but most victims hate it.
  • Most games design stealthers as glass cannons (like casters with more armor, slightly more hitpoints, but less utility/dps). Giving such classes limited stealth or on timers can easily make them victims of more powerful classes. A stealther's strength comes from being able to dictate when and if a fight takes place.
  • 2) Most stealthers hate moving slowly in stealth mode, while the victims love it.
  • Most stealthers I have played with accept slow movement speed as a drawback of being stealthed. None I know hate it. Slow movement speed do give the potential victims better chances of avoiding getting attacked.
  • 3) Some stealthers, like any other class, do want to be OP, but many welcome the challenge of a more difficult system that rewards smart play and skill, not just patience and stunlock (which is hated by the majority of victims because it removes their ability to actually fight back) and/or extremely powerful opening attacks.
  • Some players of ALL classes wants to be OP, hence the FOTM term. Most career stealthers don't care about OP, but they do want to be competitive. Stunlock was more of a problem with Hib-casters than stealthers, but I see the argument.
  • 4) Some stealthers don’t want to be part of keep sieges or mass RvR, but others really want to be involved and help out in more ways than simply picking off lone players (wounded or not). 
  • This applies to all types of players, not just stealthers. Assassins usually avoid sieges/mass RvR because the way their class is designed does not make them competitive in such an environment. Close-range glass cannons rarely lasts long in fights that becomes prolonged.
  • 5) Most people dislike being killed by a stealther, but almost everyone hates being killed by multiple stealthers acting in concert.
  • This statement can be changed to include everyone: Most people dislike being killed by another player, but almost every soloer hates being killed by multiple players grouped together.
  • 6) “Easy on” stealth is widely despised by the victims and laughed at by some stealthers, and is usually a bit of a disconnect from most games' physical laws.
  • Playing fantasy settings where people hurl fireballs around should allow for some escape from physical laws. To most, I think game design trumphs adherence to laws.
  • 7) Some stealthers really want to play the role of a scout, while for others, the role of an assassin fits them best.
  • True, yet most want to be competitive and feel they make a difference in the war.
 
I must admit I still am not sure how The Veil works, but the ideas sounds interesting. All comes down to game design and how stealth becomes implemented. By the sound of it, archers seems to have a different stealth system or no-stealth, so I am not sure how this will affect my playing style.
  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1134

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

4/26/13 7:16:39 PM#31
Originally posted by Mortify

The risk vs reward people talk about was fine in DAoC, before the age of buffbots.

 

It's hugely risky as an unbuffed stealther in DAoC to be playing out in RvR. Vs groups that have buffs& heals - no chance. Versus other unbuffed soloers: good chance, but certainly not a given.

In the end it comes down to this:

---

Hello gamedesigner,

Please nerf paper, it's overpowered.

Scissors are fine though, don't change them

Signed,

Rock.

---

Exactly

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1134

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

4/26/13 7:21:08 PM#32
Originally posted by Axxar

But Rock can't find Scissors... because Scissors is invisible.

Unless Rock gets True Sight like abilities to see stealthers normally from distance, of course.

Why should visibles always see stealth?  Snipers exist in the modern era, and stealth sure as heck existed probably since the dawn of time, simply because a person could effectively hide in geography.

 

You can't hide in today's mmorpgs because the graphics aren't advanced enough.  Hence, stealth should exist...perhaps everyone should get some form of sneak that they can put points into that is modified by armor - a plate armored person's sneak will suck but he should have the option to remove his armor for leather...

 

But meh - this is an old argument.

 

It sure as heck didn't hurt WOW to have rogues in their 10 million + player mmorpg.  Druids, Rogues...and np.  Heck, hunters have a fairly decent stealth ability now.  Why does CU have to cater to issues that are based on arguments of folks who want to run around visible and solo.  It has always been THEM that have made the complaints.  I've never once heard of an 8 man visible group complain about a few rogues.  They wipe them.

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2007

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

4/27/13 2:00:28 AM#33

I'm not saying it should. But if you have a R/P/S system where one of them can always pick and choose their fights and thus always avoid their counter, you have a balance problem.

I think what makes people feel stealth is unfair is usually that if you see a class you know you can't beat, you can always try to escape. And if you see a class you know you can beat, you can try to chase him. You can't do either against a stealth character because you don't know he's there. That means you die if he counters you but if you counter him, you don't even get to fight him.

Lots of people complain about Rogues in WoW. They've been rendered less effective these days, but rogues were highly popular early in the game and it was very difficult to get into groups as a rogue back then since there were so many of them.

Rogues are also much less powerful in instanced arena style PvP than in world PvP since you know how many are there. Before WoW's PvP got pushed into instances, roaming the world as a rogue was a great way to have 100% or close to victory stat in PvP. Of course, rogues in early WoW were also very powerful with openers and stun-lock, which doesn't have to be the case in all games.

Presenting the "it's OK I can kill with impunity - this is a rock paper scissors game!" argument while conveniently not mentioning you can just remain invisible to your counter class is just... so 2004.

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-KMOc_y7xo

 

Personally on my Rogue I preferred the Hemorrage spec. Essentially you could keep your opponent permanently stunlocked, finish off with a Gouge and then restealth before he had a chance to do anything even if he miraculously survived the initial stunlock beatup. And then you could start all over again. It required some skill to time the stuns and such, and it was actually rare I saw other rogues doing it well. But really, it wasn't all that hard, and while it was fun being the guy in control, it probably wasn't very fun being the victim. It didn't really matter how much skill they had, because they were stunned throughout the fight.

Warriors were the "rock" to the Rogue's "scissors." However in this case, if scissors allowed rock to find them, scissors beat rock anyways.

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